| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/irc-diplomacy-oftc-undernet-espernet-dalnet/#comment-29 – this is btw something to add to easily while you are on holiday; if anything you can set up a fleet of bouncers to collect data from all networks & chans while you enjoy hawaii or whatever | [06:02] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re script for analysis you might find the awk irssi2tmsr thing good for initial cleanup of join/part and similar so you have whatever conversation remains in there | [06:06] |
| diana_coman: | see the logbot v-tree | [06:07] |
| whaack: | good morning diana_coman. I figured out/remembered an insight for toposort, namely that it's easier to check if a node has no future dependencies than to check if a combination of applying the already sorted nodes is an antecedent of an unsorted node. This puts me more on track for completing this week's goals. But I am still uncertain whether I will make it. In either case I feel that I did the exercise I needed to do before readi | [08:46] |
| whaack: | ng the code, and can now proceed with the annotation task you assigned me. | [08:46] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: I also want to clarify what is the end of my work week. Is it Sunday night or Monday night, and at what time in which time zone? (And humbly, I will guess the prelude to your answer: it is very stupid that I did not ask this immediately before I made my post, because how could I begin to allocate time on a 1 week horizon if my bounds are +-24hrs? This shows I just took a guess as to what I could get done without reason | [08:53] |
| whaack: | ing it out) | [08:53] |
| whaack: | s/easier to check if a node has no future dependencies/easier to check that a node is not a dependency of any of the unsorted nodes/ | [08:56] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: are you trying to rediscover dijkstra's toposort algorithm or what's with the remembering? | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: do you know dijkstra's algo? (yes or no) | [09:03] |
| whaack: | well I reasoned it out again, but I had read it before a long time ago | [09:03] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so go and read it from a ref book if you need to, what; that's what ref books are for! | [09:03] |
| diana_coman: | this algo in particular is pretty simple too, greedy taking of vertices that don't have any incoming edges + eliminate it and repeat | [09:06] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Oct-2019#1006713 – Sunday night strictly speaking; practically speaking for as long as I'm in the UK, it would be Monday 6am UK time (ie GMT+1 currently & GMT when clocks change) | [09:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-17 08:53:12 whaack: diana_coman: I also want to clarify what is the end of my work week. Is it Sunday night or Monday night, and at what time in which time zone? (And humbly, I will guess the prelude to your answer: it is very stupid that I did not ask this immediately before I made my post, because how could I begin to allocate time on a 1 week horizon if my bounds are +-24hrs? This shows I just took a guess as to what I could get done without reason | [09:08] |
| diana_coman: | but no, I hope you are not going to plan to spend Sunday nights working, ugh | [09:09] |
| whaack: | for this week i absolutely need to to get my stuff done. but it can be spent reading The Odyssey which is enjoyable | [09:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the exact planning of when to get the work done depends on your schedule really but as a rule you should plan somewhere a buffer too. | [09:12] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: note that it might *happen* that you have to spend some night(s) working, sure, but those should be the exception really not a plan ie mainly either 1. terribly poor time management on your part in which case good it hurts, get better at it 2. force majeure (that is rare by definition) | [09:16] |
| whaack: | ok. and yes re dijkstra's, i solved it in the wrong direction at first but realized it was better to do the algorithm you state and reverse the list at the end | [09:18] |
| whaack: | s/i solved it/i tried to solve it | [09:19] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you *really* should ask what something means if you don't know it, not just wing it! a v-line is not what you think, ugh. | [09:24] |
| whaack: | You're right, I just assumed a vline meant a sequence of applied vpatches from genesis. But even if I'm right I am just taking a guess based off the name. | [09:25] |
| bvt: | whaack: you really shouldn't import v.py's implementation of toposort into your understanding of V (as noted by diana_coman and asciilifeform before), also because it also has known limitations (http://thetarpit.org/2018/botworks-regrind#selection-105.0-123.28) | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: re v-line, see the new comment | [09:33] |
| whaack: | bvt: ty i will take a look | [09:34] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Understood, to demonstrate I will put it in my own words. I wrote the incorrect statement that when you create a new vpatch you must start from pressing to "the most recent vpatch." This is wrong because there is hardly any notion of a "most recent patch" since a set of vpatches form a tree that can split. If for example that tree has 3 nodes a,b,c and b and c are both children of a, then there is no notion of "most re | [09:42] |
| whaack: | cen patch" b and c are both at the same level of the tree. So one can create a patch on top of b or c, or even on top of a. | [09:42] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: technically speaking there IS a most recent patch because of the manifest file | [09:45] |
| diana_coman: | but you basically used there the wrong contexts and got messed up | [09:46] |
| diana_coman: | ie "most recent" is of interest mainly in user-context really; in your V-discussion context you should stick to the relevant terms for the *structure* since that is what you are discussing; ie you have a root node and you have leaf nodes | [09:47] |
| diana_coman: | so at most you could have said a leaf node; at which point hopefully the q would have naturally popped up: why not a non-leaf node? | [09:47] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: pay attention to using the proper terms because if you do, it helps you *a lot* | [09:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: does the above make sense? | [09:49] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes it makes sense. except I do not know about the manifest file. | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ha! the discussion/intro of a manifest file is in #trilema (although it goes on a bit until current shape so possibly a search works best to figure out what and how | [09:52] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2017-12-26 mircea_popescu: how about a convention whereby all new genesises must contain a manifest.genesis file, which file will be constantly patched on each patchj, no exceptions, by adding a line which reads : "This is patch #x and the codebase hash is blabla". | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | the standard was written on trinque's blog but atm that's down; you can however take any current v-tree and look at it | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: see for instance the mp-wp v-tree perhaps | [09:54] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: makes a lot of sense. I wrote down in my notes to ask why a hash of all the files in the codebase was not included, since applying a vpatch could have a different result depending on which leaf node it was applied to. | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: hopefully the contexts&terms part is clear too because it's quite important; you basically said "most recent" when what you meant was (it would seem) "leaf node" that further was assumed for some reason to be unique at any given time. | [10:00] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i understand the importance of using the correct terms. if i have the wrong set of symbols mapping to a concept then my incorrect mapping makes communication ~impossible (amongst other problems.) As for the "most recent" being interest in user-context maybe I do not fully understand what you mean here. I think it means that as a user of V you want to try to constantly know what the "most recent vpatch" is. In practical | [10:07] |
| whaack: | terms this means you want to know what is the best leaf to press to. This is similar to how you want to know what the most recent block is, but for either you can never be assured you are fully sync'd. | [10:07] |
| whaack: | I have to bbl, I'll be gone for about 1.5 hours. | [10:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: more to the point is the fact that V does not *care* about "most recent", time itself -at least as the linear thing most commonly thought of- is not part of V as such (and the fact that it has to be forced in via manifest file reflects this), hence not appropriate to talk about most recent when you describe V; onth a user may care (as in your example above or for whatever other reason). | [10:12] |
| whaack: | diana_coman. back. okay, so the user of V has a notion of a "most-recent-patch", but the tool V itself does not. | [11:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: quite. | [11:34] |
| dorion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Oct-2019#1006745 << whaack : trinque's v-manifest spec is archived here : http://archive.is/Ye3Xx | [11:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-17 09:52:41 diana_coman: the standard was written on trinque's blog but atm that's down; you can however take any current v-tree and look at it | [11:45] |
| whaack: | ty dorion. i updated http://ztkfg.com/2019/10/v-study-reference-links/ to include this. | [11:49] |
| diana_coman: | nice. | [11:49] |
| jfw: | gives ETA of tomorrow night for first of upcoming blog posts. First task I think will be to review log for what exactly was asked/offered and work out a more detailed schedule. | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: works. | [12:48] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I'm getting the bureaucratic treatment from EsperNet #help: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=GeV5 | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so ask them why can't guarantee and then/or how does the decision work | [12:53] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ok. That makes sense. Done. | [12:56] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Oct-2019#1006708 << is the idea here to set up a cloud instance with a bouncer on it maybe per network, then manually list and join all channels on the network and just take advantage of znc's built in logging? | [12:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-17 06:02:05 diana_coman: thimbronion: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/irc-diplomacy-oftc-undernet-espernet-dalnet/#comment-29 – this is btw something to add to easily while you are on holiday; if anything you can set up a fleet of bouncers to collect data from all networks & chans while you enjoy hawaii or whatever | [12:59] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I can publish a review for this week tomorrow. Should I skip my plan post for my vacation week? | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as much as you can automate quickly, automate; note that the list of channels is likely to be loooong; but a /channels or similar will retrieve it and then simply feed that into the conf to join automatically (or similar setup) | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, I'd set it up on whatever vps or anything else you have available really | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you can publish the plan post for the week after vacation, not a bad thing to have already done when you come back | [13:10] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | re logger yes, if you have an instance of a client running and in the chan, it will log (make sure it does, lol) | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: is it clear what and why is the idea there? | [13:11] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I think we would be interested in how much actual discussion is happening in their chans – like – non-join/part lines/day. Is that it? | [13:12] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: because maybe they have a bunch of connected users but nothing's really going on. | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: yes but the important part is that we want to do this properly ie systematically; so we have actual data to point to when we make a claim ; (and for that matter if surprisingly it turns out that there is some very active and interesting thing going on somewhere in there – all the better, we can go directly to it!) | [13:14] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and note that once you have that, you can make a direct comparison and say something along the lines: look here , you claim 10k users but their actual *words* (let alone meaning!) adds up to less than x\% of tmsr talk over similar timeframe | [13:15] |
| diana_coman: | but make sure now that you get data properly so you have what to look at. | [13:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok that makes sense. Yes. I don't know how they'll handle someone simultaneously joining all channels. I do anticipate some sort of wrist slapping or kicking for that kind of behavior. | [13:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: impossible to know until tried though. | [13:17] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: My vpatch topo sort is almost working. The problem is if a vpatch brings any file back to a previous state, the set of vpatches is considered cyclic. This seems wrong, since a vpatch may revert one file while adding a new file. The manifest i think would solve this issue, but I'm not sure whether or not how the non-manifest version should handle this. | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, for one thing you can time them so it's not all at once | [13:18] |
| whaack: | s/whether or not how/how/ | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and for the other thing, whatever they do, you document it and post it on blog, what; not to mention that…uhm, what exactly is wrong with joining all channels? | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | showing you "care" about dalnet!! | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: lolz@almost working; "here, have some almost food" :D | [13:19] |
| whaack: | lol | [13:20] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the vpatch is a whole though, you can't and shouldn't apply it partially | [13:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. Also, I only have a few hours to put into mass logging before I go, so I cant't guarantee that this will be working on 1 or more networks before Sat. | [13:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ah, are you leaving for holidays this Sat or what? | [13:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Yes, Sat – Sat. | [13:23] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: The problem boils down to: I don't know how to write the function is_vpatch_parent_of_other_vpatch(vp1, vp2) . My naive solution is return true if any of the descendants of vp1 are in the antecedents of vp2. But it's possible that that is true without vp1 being the parent of vp2. | [13:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: I see; well, do what you can to have at least a test run if nothing more; it sort of sucks because it fit perfectly with "being away" but such is life. | [13:27] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: and worse, you'll end up with either multiple parents or semirandom choice of parent | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: but start from def: what IS the parent of a new vpatch? | [13:29] |
| whaack: | right. so as far as i can tell, you absolutely need some sort of manifest file | [13:30] |
| whaack: | from my understanding the parent of a new vpatch is the result of a series of pressed vpatches, (not even a vpatch itself) | [13:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that doesn't make "parent" ALL the vpatches in that series though, does it? | [13:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you are the result of a similar "press" in your own family tree; that doesn't mean you don't have some direct parents | [13:34] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: right. if you have a vline of p1,p2,p3 (and p2 depends on p1) then p3's parent, if its going to be a vpatch, is certainly p2. | [13:35] |
| whaack: | however if p3 doesnt modify any of the files in p2 that get added/changed in p2, then p1 is also a parent | [13:36] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: hm? it depends on what does p3 depend really; the child vpatch depends on some specific files as identified by their hashes | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: and yes, the manifest file makes this problem entirely go away in that it clearly enforces a single line at any point in the tree (you can have a tree with as many branches as you want but the manifest file will be different too) | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the point is this: as each vpatch changes the manifest file, you know for sure that you won't end up with the situation when a vpatch COULD be pressed on either result of p1 or of p2 | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | so you just need to look at hashes: which vpatch results in all the hashes required as "starting state" for p3? if it's p1, then p1 is parent; if it's p2, then p2 is parent | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter a case where "more than one possible parent" should -> ERROR | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | borked tree basically. | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | note that historically though (ie before manifest), there used to be multiple parent cases, yes; e.g start of http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=eucrypt&search= | [13:42] |
| whaack: | so eucrpt_keccack_birate_fix and eucrypt_ch15_arbitrary_e both are parents of ch16. and i guess the problem bvt was saying is ~ python v is just going to find a path from genesis to ch16 without being greedy about applying patches | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | "read and find out"! lol | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [13:46] |
| whaack: | lol k. for the interest of time i will publish what i have so far and then move on with the what/why/how and annotations on stan's code. | [13:48] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack: as bvt earlier reminded, my orig 'v' wasn't 'final word on subj', but rather proof of concept; there are corner cases where it stops and reqs manual intervention, but moar recent vtrons Do Right Thing . | [14:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-17 09:29:17 bvt: whaack: you really shouldn't import v.py's implementation of toposort into your understanding of V (as noted by diana_coman and asciilifeform before), also because it also has known limitations (http://thetarpit.org/2018/botworks-regrind#selection-105.0-123.28) | [14:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ( fwiw asciilifeform still uses his orig v, or rather the version upgraded to use keccak hashes by diana_coman & phf , it handles correctly all the trees i actually use . but fact remains. ) | [14:12] |
| dorion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006705 << hi diana_coman. to be explicit, continuing yesterday's thread tomorrow evening (GMT) is going to work better for me. blog set up is ongoing. | [15:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 18:21:18 diana_coman: dorion: 10 minutes from q to answer though does not a conversation make; so we'll continue tomorrow or Friday evening; write it down too when you get your blog up. | [15:37] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: all right; tomorrow evening then. | [15:39] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: what was with that latency anyway? | [15:40] |
| dorion: | diana_coman: upon reflection I got stuck on that point becuase it's a bit of a sore spot that I continued to work with Coinapult people following what happened there. | [15:47] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ah, I see; well, good to think of that for sure, but you can't just put the whole world on pause while you do it. | [15:50] |
| dorion: | on top of that I was a bit fatigued from the outpour at that point, in part because it was the first time I've publically written about it. | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: at least it should make it easier to write the whole story down now; when is your eta for blog up? | [15:51] |
| dorion: | diana_coman: I think I can have a first post by Saturday, but giving myself a buffer of Sunday. | [15:53] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: would you rather we postpone the talk for next Tuesday then? | [15:54] |
| dorion: | diana_coman ok, I accept postpoing till next Tuesday evening GMT. That'll give me plenty runway to get at least a couple of posts and provide more structure/context compared to flow of consciousness chat. | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: lol@accept; yes, I offered it in the idea that it makes it easier for *you*; hence the "rather". | [15:56] |
| dorion: | diana_coman point taken. | [15:57] |
| dorion: | I think I read the "rather" as an offer and decided the accept the offer. | [15:59] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I am about to step away for a few hours. I'll link the posts here when published and keep up with the log in the meantime. | [16:01] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: it's enough if you ping only once with "this is my blog url+ip" | [16:02] |
| dorion: | noted. | [16:04] |
April 20, 2020
#ossasepia Logs for 17 Oct 2019
#ossasepia Logs for 16 Oct 2019
| jfw: | indeed, http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006292 is a bit of sanity that didn't come naturally or cheap, and perhaps a lesson I still haven't completely learned | [00:23] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:29:37 jfw: (and to revisit the content of the above – yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.) | [00:23] |
| jfw: | But the principle failure, I think, beyond any particular bad decision, was in not reaching out to people who could have helped make better decisions. | [00:31] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006447 – yes. | [05:51] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:02:47 jfw: and re-reading, I think that misunderstanding is that in haste I missed the "or do you do other stuff too?", so answered narrowly about time spent on current clients, which answer was then interpreted broadly as that's all I do. | [05:51] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006450 – why the haste anyway (not to mention that such haste that ends up costing you 1.5 hours later is quite something)? and note that 1. you weren't answering *that* fast anyway 2. I had to repeat a question earlier 3. overall it gave the impression not of "haste" but more of "he's multitasking with whatever and he's not paying much attention"; | [05:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 21:10:24 jfw: Speaking of efficiency, perhaps room for improvement in that it took me 1.5hr to figure out the "do other stuff too" thing, which time wasn't getting filed under #ossasepia but nonetheless wasn't otherwise gainfully used. There mighta been some spinning involved before organized thought. Still, for now I'm glad to have figured it out at | [05:55] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006452 – lol! | [05:55] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 21:10:24 jfw: all, rather than go on spinning along the lines of "diana_coman is a maniacal slavedriver and I can never sleep again, or I'm inadequate for unfathomable reasons" | [05:55] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006453 – you are actually! | [05:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 21:12:29 jfw: And I hope I'm doing better at the open communication now. | [05:56] |
| diana_coman: | hello dorion ; why so reluctant to join anyway? | [05:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006462 – good for you on coming clear with it on both fronts really. | [06:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:18:01 jfw: The neighbors are probably wondering who died; as far as I could tell it was gonna be either my 5-year best friends relationship with him, my potential relationships with ~everyone here, or a particularly stubborn bit of our own stupidity. | [06:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006463 – dorion, do I take it you are more the manager while he's more the tech or how is this structured? | [06:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:24:34 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc. | [06:01] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [06:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006465 – good. | [06:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:26:50 jfw: It will be. | [06:02] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006470 – you know, the Master of Management is MP and he has published quite a book + practical examples of all sorts. | [06:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:36:53 jfw: One thing we're up to, though dorion more than I, is studying management, because it's necessary for what we're trying to do and we seem to suck at it. | [06:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006473 – I can see it by now from all the rest, indeed. | [06:04] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:51:28 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006391 << to add more context to this and with the luxury of hindsight, the original also included premature optimatizations such as a) make a linux from scratch cause no way to 'catalyst' a gentoo stage3 without a gentoo and b) implement scheme interpreter because even though jfw is strong with python, "not specified, does anyone even | [06:04] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:18:42 jfw: Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training. | [06:04] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006478 – absolutely this, yes. | [06:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 00:31:29 jfw: But the principle failure, I think, beyond any particular bad decision, was in not reaching out to people who could have helped make better decisions. | [06:05] |
| diana_coman: | jfw, dorion anyways, it's from about 7pm gmt that I'm usually around for chat in here so find some non-hasted time one of those days. | [06:11] |
| jfw: | in, reading/thinking. Didn't get the best sleep: lots bouncing around in head (anticipating response: "so write it down" – working on it) | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: I can imagine; take it easy, there's still time. | [10:29] |
| jfw: | ty. | [10:32] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006481 – looking closer & recollecting original thread, I saw the question but got distracted by the continued Panama thread, and forgot about it. Maybe there's some irc practices I need to strengthen here – jotting down q's, or rereading? Then, in the embarrassment of having dropped | [11:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 05:54:59 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006450 – why the haste anyway (not to mention that such haste that ends up costing you 1.5 hours later is quite something)? and note that 1. you weren't answering *that* fast anyway 2. I had to repeat a question earlier 3. overall it gave the impression not of "haste" but more of "he's multitasking with whatever and he's not paying much attention"; | [11:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 17:46:43 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [11:20] |
| jfw: | it, I proceeded to reread "hastily" if at all, though that doesn't seem a defensible word choice, more like "carelessly". | [11:20] |
| jfw: | re 2/3, I can see that this would be frustrating; I certainly don't imagine you write words here just because you like typing, and thus it's on me to read / digest them all. | [11:23] |
| jfw: | fwiw, I wasn't multitasking at least with external things, but hard deny the not paying enough attention. | [11:24] |
| jfw: | *hard to deny | [11:24] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006502 – noted, that will usually work for me except Mondays and Thursdays. | [11:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 06:11:13 diana_coman: jfw, dorion anyways, it's from about 7pm gmt that I'm usually around for chat in here so find some non-hasted time one of those days. | [11:34] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006486 << hello diana_coman. I think it was a bad habit hangover of reading, but not engaging. "habits begin as cobwebs and end up as chains." and all that. but that bad habit is mine to own and replace. | [11:44] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 08:55:42 diana_coman: hello dorion ; why so reluctant to join anyway? | [11:44] |
| dorion: | when I started reading the the forum + blogs my reaction was a combination of, "this is over my head, especially on the technical side, but fucking important." + http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-16#1936641 | [11:54] |
| ericbot: | (trilema) 2019-09-16 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-15#1936596 << i imagine the ~perceived~ pressure on nameless womanhood is quite immense, "omfg, what do i say, what if they make fun of me, they're gonna say i never installed linux from scratch as if it implied i'm half a dead man riding about on half a dead rabbit!!!" | [11:54] |
| baitbot: | (trilema) 2019-09-15 hanbot: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936285 << more's the point is that your "household" consists of a WoT non-entity (afaik, actually. is it?) that may or may not be just as clueless about saying something here if you get a touch of The Butt. aesthetipolitical bents, righteous as they may be, pale by comparison. | [11:54] |
| dorion: | jfw helped me make sense of the technical aspects and my skills have improved, but the process hasn't been public, which now I see it's overdue for change. | [11:56] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006489 << that is correct. I'm responsible for management, marketing/sales. jfw is responsible for the technical development and training program. there is a degree of overlap because as curriculum solidifies and we make more sales, I will deliver the training as well to free up jfw for further development of his soon to be published projects | [12:10] |
| dorion: | and ossasepia work. | [12:10] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 09:00:50 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006463 – dorion, do I take it you are more the manager while he's more the tech or how is this structured? | [12:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 23:24:34 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc. | [12:10] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [12:10] |
| jfw: | dorion: in that scenario we would of course need to find the right balance and not overload you either, as I understand you're strongly considering applying for mentorship too. | [12:52] |
| dorion: | correct | [13:23] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: http://bingology.net/2019/10/16/reasonable-lamp-setup-for-mp-wp-on-centos-6-and-anyserver-terms-of-use/ << How I put together anyserver's LAMP, feel free to ask questions | [15:37] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: looks good really; iirc though I installed the mpwp for younghands on a centos6 and with lamp from repos really; it certainly doesn't hurt to have manual version + tarballs backup too though. | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006526 – are you both applying or considering or what? | [16:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 12:52:55 jfw: dorion: in that scenario we would of course need to find the right balance and not overload you either, as I understand you're strongly considering applying for mentorship too. | [16:06] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Well, I have a preference for the particular apache and php versions. | [16:07] |
| BingoBoingo: | Too many forward/backward compatibility issues pop up with different second decimal points. | [16:08] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that dalnet-feeling is potentially a lot of lulz but why are you so …timid going in there or dunno | [16:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | And MySQL brings compatibility issues in on the third decimal point at times | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: myeah, the joy of "versions". | [16:11] |
| BingoBoingo: | My though is end of life versions of the third decimal point on apache and php may be v-genesisable. I'll leave picking a MySQL to the more versed. | [16:13] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: what do you mean exactly by v-genesisable ie how do you reckon those are vs others aren't? | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | mysql is quite fixed for me at the version I hammered into shape for cuntoo, anyway | [16:15] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I am currently still 'considering' but just about considered enough already and time to do something. Per your original urging to ask questions I came up with some that have been nagging for a while. Might be a bit vague, or large topics — TMSR ideology/philosophy basically — but I'll try to spit 'em out (if this is a good time). | [16:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Well, I mean to prepare for Cuntoo use when I make it that far with Cuntoo. I have no strong reasons to prefer the apache and php. Just the minor preference for End of Life versions. | [16:17] |
| BingoBoingo: | And the stack works on them so far. | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: it is, go ahead | [16:18] |
| jfw: | Are there universal principles of what constitutes virtuous / right / honorable conduct? Is there a difference between the three? | [16:19] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: probably any version that works with mpwp + has a lord signing it will be perfectly fine really | [16:20] |
| jfw: | I've gathered that obedience to authority is a big one, but at the same time, figuring out what's right/wrong is important and not all "authority" is legitimate | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: hm, how clear are you there with the philosophical structure? the way you are asking the 1st question it would seem a broader scope than the very-pedestrian example in 2nd | [16:22] |
| jfw: | I am probably not very clear | [16:23] |
| shinohai: | Lol my alpine box has php-cli and php (5.6.27-r0) … darn close to BingoBoingo 's 5.6.40 | [16:25] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what's at the root of your question then? | [16:25] |
| BingoBoingo: | shinohai: well, these things tend to converge. | [16:25] |
| BingoBoingo: | 7's a different language as are the earlier 5.X versions | [16:26] |
| dorion: | diana_coman what is the application process ? as far as I gather, there is the pageboy's pledge and a get to know you phase, afterwhich you make a decision. | [16:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 16:49:58 diana_coman: to make it perfectly clear: it's submitting to me as a mentor, not to some "prescribed pace" or programme or whatever; it's a relationship mentor-mentee and as such fully dependent on the people involved; for that matter, you may apply and I'll try to get to know you a bit better first before I can decide if I'll take you on or not. | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | I don't quite feel qualified for a full ad-hoc lecture on philosophy to start from basis all the way up. | [16:26] |
| BingoBoingo: | brb | [16:26] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: ok, hm. Thinking how to ask better… | [16:27] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: the "application process" is very simple: 1. you figure out if you want in 2. if yes, you say it and then I figure out if I want you on | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | that's all of it really | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: not a 3-ring binder procedure but a person to person interaction | [16:28] |
| dorion: | diana_coman ok. I've read enough to know I want in. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: is this you trying to make sure you "won't do the wrong thing"? | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: do you have any site/place where you write/publish something? other than jfw's intro on you, I know absolutely nothing about you. | [16:35] |
| jfw: | I expect there can be no guarantee of that, but at least, is there something to …navigate by? | [16:35] |
| jfw: | Would it be, whatever is found to work to allow a culture to become dominant? | [16:36] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: certainly there is and the pageboy's pledge is precisely there to help with this really. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: hm, that's not the main point, no; | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: realise that there is no right/wrong thing by itself; it's only about doing whatever you do well or not. | [16:38] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I was nearly done with an mpwp set up on my pizarro rockchip. I'm setting it back up on a vps, where I plan to publish a more structured introduction of why/how I got to where I am by Sunday. | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be | [16:41] |
| jfw: | sounds quite healthy. | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: and at every juncture, choose the thing that needs to be done rather than your comfort | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: as to the republic as a whole, the fundamental aspect I'd say is the fact that it's a republic of men (ie individual agents, active and self-directed entities) | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | as opposed to a republic of laws, rules and regulations | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | hence partially the trouble in answering a question that looks for "general rules" – there aren't any as such, no; there is a culture though, sure. | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: from the outside I can easily see how one might get the impression that "there is a rule to obey" | [16:45] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I see I did not answer your question directly, that answer would be no. then my line above is what I'm doing to fix that. | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | there is no such thing really; the invisible part there is that once you focus on what things really are the conclusion is to obey those that know better than you. | [16:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 16:41:06 diana_coman: jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be | [16:46] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: aha, good; are you originally from Panama? | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: part of the reason why there isn't anymore a direct entrance to #trilema is precisely the accumulated culture – it makes it extremely hard for a newcomer to *not* make catastrophic mistakes if they just wonder straight in | [16:48] |
| diana_coman: | while a few years ago the gap was not *that* big, it grew and quite quickly at that | [16:48] |
| dorion: | diana_coman no I am from Vermont, usia. I can give you the brief story of how I got to Panama here and expand on blog if that's satisfactory to you. | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: the explicit rules that I spell out here are mainly to help people along, to give them something solid on which to rely as they grow | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | because that's the trouble with "no rules, just do things right" – it's very easy to get lost and/or break your neck. | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: sure, go ahead. | [16:51] |
| jfw: | indeed, though if you try to "rules not men", the rules pile up even higher and get more treacherous I'd expect | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: as to "how to do things right" – it starts with "act from causes not towards purposes" and "think, don't spin" | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: the resulting bureaucracy is one problem for sure; but more fundamentally the trouble with rules not men is the baked-in assumption that people are fungible, just interchangeable | [16:54] |
| jfw: | the people have to be willing to stand behind the rules | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: and no, I don't intend to produce some tome of rules, lol; that pledge is intentionally as short I could make it while capturing the core that is of use for newcomers. | [16:55] |
| jfw: | appreciated! | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what do you mean by stand behind the rules? note that discriminating is mandatory as it were | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | ie I don't have "the universal rule that applies to everyone under the sun", no | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | all human interactions are discriminations really | [16:57] |
| dorion: | in 2010 I came across Peter Schiff, American investor who forecast 2008 financial crisis. this opened me up to seriously exploring what things are and ultimately lead me to decide by spring 2011 I would do what I had to do to work for him. in January 2012, he advertised openings for commission only sales people to move out of usia and work for his new bank, www.europacbank.com . | [16:58] |
| jfw: | trying to work out the implications of non-fungibility. If one generation comes up with some rules, the next won't necessarily want the same rules, but there they are so it becomes hypocrisy | [16:58] |
| dorion: | I spent a year in St. Vincent and the Grenadines (where the bank was then domiciled) and in January 2013 moved to Panama. | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: you don't yet seem to have the prerequisites for what you are trying to picture really so yeah, it ends up nonsense | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: you'd need to start by understanding what the "rules" are and how they come to be: it's not some arbitrary and isolated set of "do this/don't do that"; moreover, the generations are also not insulated from one another; in principle and in short, you can say that both evolve | [17:01] |
| diana_coman: | ie there's a generation 2 of rules just like of people: not entirely different nor the same (even if wording stays the same) | [17:02] |
| diana_coman: | that being said, the thing is that best "rules" are simply clear statements of some hard underlying reality ; and as such, generation doesn't matter | [17:03] |
| diana_coman: | sure, some might forget the how and why and as a result, they'll think the "rule" doesn't apply to them | [17:03] |
| jfw: | It's actually a bit of a relief to hear I struggle with this because I'm… not tall enough yet, as it were | [17:04] |
| dorion: | euro pacific bank was trying to be innovative in a way: since the premise was the bailouts only exacerbated the fundamentals that caused 2008 panic, i.e. central bank price fixing of interest rates, the strategy was "we don't make loans on deposits, 100\% reserve banking". the bank was to be a conduit for selling investment products, e.g. stocks, bonds, precious metals. | [17:04] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: and what happened there? | [17:06] |
| diana_coman: | (it's first time I hear of both this schiff guy and his bank) | [17:06] |
| dorion: | however, the underlying contradiction is/was the centralization of fiat banks means euro pacific bank, or any other small bank that wants to wire usd/eur/gbp/etc, has to have accounts with a correspondent. so really the bank was forced by it's nature to extend credit to these correspondents in the form of overnight deposits. | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: there's a long reading list that can come out of just those questions, lol; but for one thing you have more pressing matters to see to atm and for the other I can't say I have a very clear idea yet of what and how you know | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: you'd think that would have been obvious from the start. | [17:09] |
| dorion: | diana_coman 2013 was when I started paying more attention to Bitcoin and in July 2013 I met Erik Voorhees. then in 2014 I left the bank to take a job with Coinapult. | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | oh boy, lol | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: what did you actually do at the bank? | [17:10] |
| dorion: | diana_coman developed business. called leads from the lead pool they had and cold law firms, corporate agents, etc to develop referrals. | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: not bad; if anything, one of the rather lacking skills currently in the republic | [17:12] |
| dorion: | diana_coman re being obvious. perhaps. I was 22, saw it as my ticket out of usia and working for who I wanted to work for. | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ah, I meant obvious *for them* not for you (and esp not at 22, no) | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | ie obvious for that schiff guy | [17:13] |
| dorion: | he doesn't exactly live in reality. he lives in a fantasy, in part, that if the US consitution were enforced usia's problems would in large part be resolved. | [17:15] |
| jfw: | which quite ties it back to rules vs. men eh | [17:16] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: bwahahahaha, that's quite the sort of thing that makes americans seem… childish at best | [17:16] |
| dorion: | Bitcoin was the cause of me setting the bozo bit on him. evoorhees had at least one debate with him in Dec 2013 in which it was clear he was working towards a purpose, i.e. "no intrinsic value, gold has intrinsic value", in rejecting btc. | [17:18] |
| jfw: | diana_coman, re long list, fair enough, thank you for the lecture so far and I'll certainly be chewing on it at a more suitable time. | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: how old is this schiff guy? because that's quite a usual stance in "too old to understand a major shift in such a core place" | [17:19] |
| dorion: | Erik argued, even in alignment closer alignment with Peter's alleged school of thought, the Austrians (Mises, Hayek, Rothdard, etc, value is subjective. | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: do ask if there's more. | [17:20] |
| dorion: | diana_coman by now I reckon he's in his late 50s, early 60s. | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: aha; while not impossible, rather unlikely; more likely he is trying to "make america great again" on his specific domain. | [17:21] |
| asciilifeform: | following thread w/ interest. diana_coman dunno whether you know about these, but in usa there is/was a vast fantasyland of 'gold — intrinsic value!11' types, with gigatonnes of forest killed to print their 'philosophies' (which reduce largely to 'buy paper pseudo-gold from ') | [17:21] |
| dorion: | diana_coman he was/is also bias for experiencing the dotcom bubble and adising people, "why would you buy yahoo! they have no earnings and are valued more than new zealand." so he associated the btc with dotcom bubble. | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: lol, I didn't know that specific bit, no; but the "gold has value" is the most common-argument I hear even if I don't mention bitcoin at all (they with the gold-value do) | [17:24] |
| dorion: | with schiff I reckon it's more personal. his late father, irwin, died in prison for attempting to make legal case that IRS is an illegal operation. judge: "no you can submit your books or supreme court cases to support your point as evidence." schiff: "the supreme court doesn't have a say?" judge: "correct" | [17:24] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc mp called'em 'single-issue Just-Wanters'. folx took issue with one particular pile of paper an' promises (the 'fed') but 0 issue w/ ~other~ , entirely indistinguishable piles (e.g. paper 'gold') | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ah, the "it's a bubble" comes next, yes; it even is defensible in first instance but the trouble is that meanwhile after all those years, mhm, rather not all that defensible anymore. | [17:26] |
| dorion: | asciilifeform schiff certain certainly says own bullion you hold and bullion, not nuemismatics, but also sells literal 'paper' gold – perth mint certificates. "backed by creditworthiness of government of w. australia." | [17:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: these folx ~ideologically~ hate bitcoin, and will lie about it at erry opportunity; for approx. same reason that cockroaches , if they could speak, would lie about ddt | [17:27] |
| asciilifeform: | dorion: pray tell how does one 'hold bullion' w/out a working set of nukes and delivery systems ? | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: that sounds actually very fitting yes; and I can easily see how a just-wanter might – for a while – even pass for more than that, basically for as long as his single issue happens to be relevant. | [17:27] |
| dorion: | diana_coman aha, I've seen Erik on twatter to peter, "scoreboard". | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: so move on to this coinapult thing; what did you do there? | [17:28] |
| dorion: | asciilifeform sure, goldbugs might have it burried somewhere and a safe of AKs/ARs but rarely think of how am I going to sell ? | [17:29] |
| asciilifeform: | dorion: familiar with e.g. captain kidd ? how much good his buried goodies did him ? but i'ma leave off, is entirely other thread. | [17:30] |
| asciilifeform: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006632 << re these inept attempts to 'cut down the master's house with the master's tools', mp had a piece where dissects the 'sovereign citizen' etc idjits | [17:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 17:24:43 dorion: with schiff I reckon it's more personal. his late father, irwin, died in prison for attempting to make legal case that IRS is an illegal operation. judge: "no you can submit your books or supreme court cases to support your point as evidence." schiff: "the supreme court doesn't have a say?" judge: "correct" | [17:34] |
| dorion: | diana_coman for coinapult, they hired me to run customer support. because I wanted to learn more about the technical side and there was a lot to do, I wore many hats. I took on basic QA testing (they were on a 2 wk release cycle (move fast and break things)), deploying new code to test environments, website design/copy writing, I helped the sales team generate leads, documented process, and | [17:35] |
| dorion: | ultimately was a main point of communication between business development and the engineers. | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: are you good at that sort of bridging? it can be quite demanding when it's effectively translating from one domain to the other. | [17:39] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Update on my V progress. As mentioned in my younghands post I am working to write toposort as an exercise before rereading/studying asciilifeform's or anyone else's code. I realize that there is an added task of figuring out what the directed edges are from the vpatches (since the vpatches do not refer to each other directly). I am confident I can solve this, but I don't know how long it will take. I worry I'll get stu | [17:40] |
| whaack: | ck and mess up my todo list for the week, which is already looking pretty tight. | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: heh, were you seriously planning in doing ALL-on-V in one week? | [17:41] |
| dorion: | then http://qntra.net/2015/03/coinapult-reports-hot-wallet-compromise/ that happened, which rocked me to the core. and resulted in a) me taking a big step back and telling myself I need to have a much better grasp of technology/security before I talk anymore and b) the company being sold to a group in Panama. | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ah, did that come as a surprise to you? | [17:42] |
| dorion: | b) resulted in all customers being made whole, I don't know the details of how the investors faired. | [17:42] |
| whaack: | lol. well if i had no other obligations i think that a tool that a demonstration of a tool that sorted the vpatches may be possible. | [17:43] |
| dorion: | diana_coman the company was struggling, bit off more than it could chew and 2013 bubble was still deflating. I did trust who I was working with and to this day am not certain 'who took', so that stung quite a bit, caused me to re-evaluate my education so I could be a better evaluator of who is worthy of trust. | [17:44] |
| whaack: | argh.s/^/if i had no other obligations, i think that a demonstration of a tool that sorted the vpatches may be possible. | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: looking at the logs it seems line crossed: this is a reply to the q if there's something to navigate by | [17:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 16:37:23 diana_coman: jfw: certainly there is and the pageboy's pledge is precisely there to help with this really. | [17:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 16:35:20 jfw: I expect there can be no guarantee of that, but at least, is there something to …navigate by? | [17:45] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I think part of why I trusted them was because I ~wanted~ it to work out. was working towards a purpose. | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so revise your plan *carefully* and *thoughtfully* + publish it on younghands as new post "revise plan dates"; it should include why and how the revision became needed. | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: that's usually how it works, yes; see the what they are, not what you want them to be | [17:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 16:41:06 diana_coman: jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be | [17:47] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I got the flow based on the "there is". | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: it's just rather surprising you managed to not see it given how you were precisely in the middle ie in the best position to actually spot the problems of all types (technical and non-technical too) | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: good then; it's still better that it's made clear in the logs now too for any log-readers anyway. | [17:50] |
| dorion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006647 << I think I have skills there and certainly room to improve as I improve my education. Part of it is translating what you've learn and remembering how you made the connections. There was a situation in a training last week where I helped clients understand a point jfw was making. | [17:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 17:39:45 diana_coman: dorion: are you good at that sort of bridging? it can be quite demanding when it's effectively translating from one domain to the other. | [17:50] |
| asciilifeform: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Oct-2019#1006650 << fwiw asciilifeform , lol, did… ( but in all seriousness, maybe i wrote it confusingly ? which is why standing offer to all of diana_coman's students to whom assigned v — to explain any part that did not make sense. plox to ask asciilifeform . ) | [17:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-16 17:41:18 diana_coman: whaack: heh, were you seriously planning in doing ALL-on-V in one week? | [17:50] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: you know, you did it, yes but remember you "did" that after you had actually… designed V in the first place? and that design (regardless of what you might think) was not the result of "just some time during this week here" | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: not to mention that I seriously doubt that they actually graduated from the same kindergarten as you :P | [17:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: right. but toposort ought not to stump anyone . ( and fwiw the algo is dijkstra's , asciilifeform did not discover it with bare teeth ) | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: note also that this wasn't just about "write the code" ; it was fully getting what V is, how it works and why and whatfor; + implementation as an aside (as it always rightfully is, just the very last and least piece) | [17:53] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: toposort sure. | [17:54] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: aha. 'fully get' i expect would take longer. but imho substantially easier 1nce student actually makes sense of the orig proggy. | [17:54] |
| jfw: | diana_coman, I have resolved to apply for your mentorship too. I wish to become the best me that I can be, and I am satisfied that you would be my best chance at it. | [17:55] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: okay re revision. I have a q about implementatio being last piece. If I annotate the code, then i spoil solving the puzzle. Should I annotate the code anyways? | [17:55] |
| asciilifeform: | ( ben's imho remains the definitive tutorial . ) | [17:55] |
| whaack: | annotate the code first* anyways? | [17:55] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: congrats on making a decision, heh. | [17:56] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: how did it come anyway that only yest poor jfw had to beg you to come in here but then you beat him to decision to apply? | [17:57] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I knew there were problems, but believed there was also potential for rectification/profitability/success and I committed to 'going for broke and making it work' rather than jumping ship. my biggest focus then was stepping my game up. | [17:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you get a choice there; if you want to solve it as a puzzle, do it as a puzzle ie leave annotation for next week and add instead some deeper exploration of V as a concept & tool. | [17:58] |
| whaack: | okay ty. | [17:58] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: he did beat me to forum generally – got rockchip, posted about some trb troubles in #trilema while under old voice model. He had to pressure me a bit to jump in too, though original pool had closed, so I was returning the favor. | [18:01] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: as you have already quite a few posts to write, get them done so I can read them before prodding you more if needed. | [18:01] |
| jfw: | will do. | [18:02] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: did you make him cry though? you should have! | [18:02] |
| jfw: | I believe I did actually. | [18:02] |
| dorion: | diana_coman maybe that's part of the bridging. he just watched me lay it on the line. there's a bit of jacob/easu in our relationship. he tends to dwell in tents and eat lentils, whereas I work more in the fields. I don't reckon he's after my birthright though. | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: why were you reluctant though? you did seem to… how to put it, circle but from a "safe" distance | [18:03] |
| dorion: | <jfw> I believe I did actually. << you believe wrong, lol. | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ahaha, so it's jacob welsh and esau dorion | [18:04] |
| dorion: | hah. well, my parents named me Robinson and that's what I go by. | [18:05] |
| dorion: | which tends to confuse ppl because they're more acclimated to 'Dorian' as a first name and Robinson as last, but what can I say. | [18:06] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: let those confused be confused, what; back to your story though: the coinapult happy-bubble burst around you; what next? | [18:07] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I'm not entirely sure. There was some fear of change / unknowns. And spinning about it, yes. Feelings out to get me I suppose. | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: fwiw you seem to want rock-solid under your foot (and preferably a few hundred meters of it downwards too) before you even step anywhere; assuming that's true, it's like everything else, it comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages, not a "wrong" or a "right" thing. | [18:11] |
| jfw: | yes I am very much of a 'look before you leap' tendency. | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: yo, did you go silent? | [18:14] |
| dorion: | diana_coman sure. the founder of Coinapult, ira miller, who I think owned the bearbones key (Coinapult used GPG, but the WoT wasn't taught/encouraged) and tardstalk account, spun off a development/consulting company and hired me. | [18:16] |
| dorion: | this lead to me doing some actual development, but through developing a relationship with jfw and my own study, I saw at the technical level his duct tape approach. | [18:19] |
| dorion: | a contact here planted the seed about starting a btc/fiat brokerage, from which I recruited jfw. | [18:21] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: 10 minutes from q to answer though does not a conversation make; so we'll continue tomorrow or Friday evening; write it down too when you get your blog up. | [18:21] |
| dorion: | diana_coman my apologies, will work on cutting down latency. | [18:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am stumped on how to work on the timidity problem. I see it. It's there. Also, replied and updated post: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/irc-diplomacy-oftc-undernet-espernet-dalnet/#comment-28 | [23:04] |
#ossasepia Logs for 15 Oct 2019
| jfw: | With his gracious permission I've blogged the aforementioned shrysr chat. Off to bed shortly. | [02:25] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re address for the mirror, after a bit of thinking, I can't quite see the reason to vhost and whatevers; it is what it is, namely a ftp mirror, so I enabled anonymous read-only on it as the most logical approach really. | [06:16] |
| diana_coman: | for anyone interested, it's directly accessible via either url or IP ftp://logs.ossasepia.com or ftp://185.163.46.29/ | [06:19] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: for that matter perhaps it makes sense to mirror vpatches there too. | [06:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006282 – heh, how long until they register a key and find their way in here? | [06:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:00:32 jfw: Back from the mines – wherein I'm teaching some computing noobs how to operate civilized machines. Five weeks ago they didn't know 'ls' from 'cd', now they've configured tty baudrates and compiled their first kernel. | [06:21] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006283 – and more generally because *they make better choices* than you; that's the very meaning of choosing them and of submitting *to them personally*: not some "perfection" but simply the fact that they are *better* than your current self. | [06:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:02:27 jfw: It gives me some perspective as to, yes, you gotta do as teacher says: because if not, for example, you're liable to get lost in the jungle of premature lines of inquiry | [06:24] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006287 – aha; note however: 1. the fact that you care about *selected* people is a *good thing* really and it actually helps you to grow too but 2. the stupid part is precisely choosing to hide (aka protect your stupidity) yourself when interacting precisely with those whose opinion you value – it should be *exactly* the opposite, namely being | [06:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:15:58 jfw: I think there's some subconscious 'towards-purposing' in it: that I want people to like me and thus worry too much about what I say, with obvious result that they don't know what to think. I'd like to believe I'm an inner-directed type who doesn't care, but can't deny that I do, at least for SOME people – including diana_coman | [06:31] |
| diana_coman: | more open with them than with random people, because you'll get way more useful feedback whether positive or negative | [06:31] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw the above is totally valid for you too. | [06:33] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: one part of it is indeed "don't act towards a purpose" ; another part is knowing knowing what feelings are really useful for | [06:35] |
| diana_coman: | and now ofc my blog is still offline grrrrr. | [06:38] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006290 – esp here, being a learning place, messing ups are not exactly surprising, quite on the contrary; the important thing is what you do in response to it (and silence is a stupid – though common because easiest – response to it) | [06:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:24:06 jfw: whereas upon http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002507 , what went through my head was "eek, I'm messing up already!" | [06:46] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006292 – this is very sane. | [06:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 21:29:37 jfw: (and to revisit the content of the above – yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.) | [06:48] |
| diana_coman: | re silence, from the logs | [06:51] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 18:14:57 diana_coman: linking also to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Aug-2019#1000533 and just in case my http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Aug-2019#1000536 wasn't clear enough, understand this: the failure mode is when you do not engage/keep silent/do not expose whatever problems/troubles you might have; it's never nor can it be the problems/defects themselves! | [06:51] |
| whaack: | gm diana_coman. I am starting my work doing background reading on V. The majority of links on ben_vulpes's site under the category "What else has been written on the topic?" are dead. Most of the links point to the realbitcoin.org, which throws a Forbidden page for all of them. | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that would be the foundation's mailing list so I pinged mod6 on it to see what's going on there; you can always check archive.is as well, just in case; other than that though, do be aware that some of those links may be outdated and that working V versions are available otherwise from their authors' website (.py is asciilifeform's) | [10:00] |
| whaack: | Okay. I believe the broken link that is important is mp's Ode to V. | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: it's clearly something that got recently messed up on therealbitcoin.org and will likely get easily fixed when mod6 sees the ping on it | [10:10] |
| whaack: | okay ty for pinging him | [10:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you might find useful esthlos' report on V implementation in Lisp, as he discusses some details | [10:15] |
| diana_coman: | just make sure not to make same mistakes at least, lol | [10:17] |
| whaack: | thanks that is a useful link i'd seen before but had forgotten about. i don't know what mistakes you're referring to yet but perhaps i will discover when i read esthlos's post | [10:20] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that was his first attempt at/with V so the code in there still has some problems; see the trackbacks at his post. | [10:21] |
| whaack: | kk | [10:22] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Is this where I should be getting my v.py ? http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=vpy&search= I saw from a comment thread that you host a v.py http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898387 but the starter_v on younghands is v.pl | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that works, yes; it's using vtools too, so all good. | [11:35] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in other lulz, ~nao~ the sad bmore dc wants to talk. | [11:40] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma keep it warm in case today's is somehow defective. | [11:40] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: is it appropriate/to your liking for me to address you as 'my master diana_coman' in a post? I ask because it feels dishonest to say 'diana_coman has assigned me.." instead of 'my master diana_coman has assigned me..' and i've dwelt on this wording for a bit. | [12:08] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Before it gets lost, it doesn't seem like I had to invoke any special magic to get the permalink redirect magic working. Once the stack started clicking together and singing, the permalinks just worked. After some errands and fulfilling some customer requests, I'll get my recipe published. | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: historically speaking, teachers were "Master of X" really so yes, "my Master has assigned me this" works fine, specifying name "my Master, diana_coman, assigned" also works fine, sure. | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: good to hear it and publishing the recipe will certainly be useful, yes. | [13:40] |
| whaack: | ok ty. i have two preliminary posts on my study of V coming out of the oven soon. | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: how's the job hunting going or how are you otherwise? | [13:40] |
| whaack: | i found a concrete example of why i was wrong in thinking v does not need to check the hashes of the output files | [13:40] |
| whaack: | ^ while pressing | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: heh, sounds like time well spent then; and yes, document what you did and what you've learnt. | [13:41] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: So far I've been too busy with the cleanup and firefighting to give it an intense look. Guy who handles the bulk of my local fiat/Bitcoin interactions said he is inquiring along some lines locally and may make some introductions. | [13:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | May also give the English teaching thing a go. My library master's degree isn't a teaching degree, but it did come from Mizzou's "College of Education". That would give something to do while eating less coin during a search for something longer term. | [13:49] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: all right; fwiw I fully appreciate your salvaging of hardware and data + the work to help people recover/get back online and if I didn't say anything so far is just because I knew you were busy and focused on this; but if there's any help you need, just speak up. | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: I know people who went around the world teaching English on the simple basis of having a passport from an English-speaking country really so I'd say it should certainly work. | [13:51] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Thank you. I may take you up on that offer. | [13:51] |
| whaack: | diana_coman. posted. i am also organizing links to updated V learning material here http://ztkfg.com/2019/10/v-study-reference-links/ as ben_vulpes did for use of anyone reading the logs and studying V. | [13:51] |
| whaack: | be back in a bit. | [13:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: nice; and yes, I'd much rather salvage what is still useful from ben's stuff because he's anyway lost at sea so there isn't even any guarantee that the content will still be up tomorrow or anything. | [13:52] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: The one reservation about English teaching is that the initial pay in the local market almost certainly will not be great. The other line of work introductions may be made for is a certain type of local agricultural non-profit (not rabbits) existing in a bubble-ish and rapidly changing marketplace whose prospects are less than enthusing. | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: your diff line goes wild all over the theme, lol | [13:57] |
| whaack: | lol diana_coman i know. it is time to fix that bit of css that i ignored when reviving blog from fire | [13:58] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack: Feel free to take the CSS off of my blog and cut it to a shape that pleases you. I'd recommong against doing the same with Qntra's CSS since I had to trim it quite a bit to work with mp-wp | [13:59] |
| whaack: | bingoboingo: ty will consider | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: ugh @ local non-profit whatevers; the best still is to start mailing isps really | [14:01] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-09 mp_en_viaje: can also be frank with them, "look, i came to uy to get isp going, worked ok for 3 years, dc died from under us, i got a girl and must relocate asap" | [14:01] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: That is still the preferred route. I am uncertain there are enough ISPs with brains left to get much interest in that pitch and thus am considering backup options. | [14:03] |
| BingoBoingo: | But yes, did talk this over with the girl and she's portable. | [14:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: somewhat interesting talk just now on DALnet with Ahnberg in #ahnberg. I'm currently stuck as to where to go next: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Ny_q | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: we would move away from freenode once we have a working server on a different network, so that should take care of their "active here" | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | ask them what does "care about dalnet" mean | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | because on the face of it, it means precisely nothing; contributing servers IS caring, isn't it? | [14:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: will do. that is unclear. | [14:18] |
| thimbronion: | right. | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | so yes, we "care" about dalnet in that we want to contribute a server to it and take active part in its admin | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | very caring, aren't we | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | I need to go atm but I'll be back later | [14:19] |
| diana_coman: | before I go: we want to "care" – now, what exactly do they have there that is worth we give a damn about? | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [14:20] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: meanwhile asciilifeform set up dulap-gentoo on usb drive, but apparently, grrr, these require additional magicks to become bootable (will look into dox to find which) | [15:35] |
| asciilifeform: | ( idea was, to dispense w/ the heathen booter and put whole kit on 1 disk image that can be distributed, plus scripts to semi-automate the install ) | [15:36] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: foundation mailing list archive is accessible now | [16:19] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-15 mod6: Alright, I've got the ML archives back up. http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/ and http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/ | [16:19] |
| whaack: | great, i'll update my post to include links from there shortly | [16:27] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: "Creating source using V is done by taking a sequentially applying a set of vpatches. " – this doesn't even parse; do *re-read* your own text before pushing that publish button. | [16:54] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006304 << ack. It's significantly harder to get appropriate advice/feedback without presenting the problem fully to *anybody*, let alone a person whose opinion I value. fwiw: If I wanted to open maself – I cannot see a reason to do it w/some random person over a person whose opinion is valued.. unless perhaps nobodyz opinion is valued. | [16:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 06:33:55 diana_coman: shrysr: btw the above is totally valid for you too. | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | gah, it's not even the only word-salad in there; /me can't read it and will stop; whaack fix it first for basic grammar. | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what are you trying to say there? | [16:55] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: okay, is it alright if i edit the original post? | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yes, proofreading it's called. | [16:57] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: i'm saying I agree with you that i cannot expect to recv advice that actually works for my problem by hiding parts of the problem, which like you said can encapsulate my stupidity. And that – if i wanted any feedback of value, (which i can obtain by presenting the problem fully) – i cant see how it could be better to go to a random person when i have access to a person whose opinion i value. | [17:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: way clearer stated this way! there was one more important part to the original point though: it's not only about receiving advice but generally about interacting with someone whose opinion matters for you – it's *because* you value their opinion that you should open up to them more, as simple as that. | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what happened to free tomorrow? | [17:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 14:33:27 jfw: Gotta head to saltmine shortly but I'll be free tomorrow. | [17:11] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006297 – gpg, networking and irc setup should be covered within a month; as for what they do with it, I don't think I'm in a position to decide, but I'll tell 'em you asked | [17:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 06:21:22 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006282 – heh, how long until they register a key and find their way in here? | [17:11] |
| jfw: | oh hey, here I am. | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | ha | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | suspiciously synchronised! | [17:12] |
| shrysr: | lol | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: who are those you are teaching there anyway? | [17:12] |
| jfw: | Some people I met locally; not sure how much more it's ok to say here. | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: I meant as in age/how did you find them, this sort of thing; not asking for their ids as they don't have any, in real terms | [17:15] |
| jfw: | heh, ok. About my age (I'm 29) | [17:16] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: to ask it a different way: what exactly is your business/what are you doing in panama anyway? | [17:16] |
| jfw: | Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training. | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw panama has a rather negative reputation really as in "tends to be liked by idiots and disliked by non-idiots"; I suppose it works as a basic example of wot-use too, lolz | [17:21] |
| jfw: | The business is with a friend I met in Panama, who assures me he'll be dropping in here soon. I came originally in 2013, just to get established somewhere non-US and it had easy-ish residence and favorable taxes for my situation at the time. | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: do you have panama citizenship now/ | [17:23] |
| jfw: | It has its annoyances, sure, but more or less lights stay on, shelves are stocked with at least something, can't complain too much. | [17:24] |
| jfw: | No, but believe I'm now eligible to apply | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | every place has its annoyances, that is a given; the whole question is about the degree to which the specific set of local annoyances for one place or another stands in the way of the sort of things you want to do. | [17:25] |
| jfw: | What do you mean about "basic example of wot-use"? | [17:25] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: panama, although not in the wot as it's not a person, still has some informal "ratings" via "who lives/likes it there and who doesn't"; some positives and some negatives but *who* maintains it as positive matters as much as the positive itself. | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | precisely as any wot works and illustrating exactly the sort of thing most newcomers seem to have trouble with, | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | with. | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | (and who maintains it as negative matters just as much, ofc.) | [17:29] |
| jfw: | I see. Indeed, the king of a barren rock would sing the praises of his rock, which wouldn't necessarily mean much for anyone else | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | not only that; but there are literally people whose "this is great" aka positive rating counts as a big fat negative for me, lol | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: are you even familiar with bitbet? | [17:30] |
| jfw: | yeah | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: so what's the link with panama? | [17:30] |
| jfw: | like whose rating got me here? | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: no, what's the link between bitbet and panama, lol | [17:31] |
| jfw: | oh… wasn't aware of one, though there's legal gambling here | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: eh, voorhes sang panama's praises at some point; it's all history and not the best way to spend your time atm really; I thought you were familiar with it because you said yes earlier, that's all. | [17:33] |
| jfw: | ah, voorhees I know of. Was he in the Berkshire bet? | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | not that I recall though I didn't follow the Berkshire bet specifically all that close | [17:37] |
| BingoBoingo: | Voorhees was Satoshi Dice | [17:38] |
| jfw: | SatoshiDice, http://trilema.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institutions-a-guide/ and Coinapult are the main things I know about him. | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: ah, right; why the fuck do I keep mixing bitbet with satoshidice in my head | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: yes, satoshidice, sorry for the confusion there. | [17:41] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well good chunk of both their runs overlapped | [17:41] |
| jfw: | He moved back to the US some years ago as I understand, so dunno if he's updated his rating of Panama, heh | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | I can't say I care really. | [17:42] |
| jfw: | On the stupidity of hiding stupidity: makes sense, and I'll try to not do that, much as the stupidity will surely object. | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [17:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | Re: panama, hanbot has a piece http://thewhet.net/2018/04/panama-makes-me-ill/ | [17:49] |
| jfw: | heh, I saw that yes. | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | that'd be a negative rating from a person whose rating carries quite the weight, yes | [17:50] |
| jfw: | There are garbage problems because 1) they mostly haven't invented dumpsters yet and 2) unionized I believe. Possibly 1 is because of 2. | [17:51] |
| BingoBoingo: | Here they have dumpsters and still trash issues | [17:53] |
| jfw: | "what, you mean I'm supposed to put the trash *in* the dumpster"? | [17:53] |
| diana_coman: | lolz; it's ok, you have another training opportunity there :D | [17:53] |
| BingoBoingo: | Nah, that happens more or less. The problem is pichis taking trash out of dumpsters | [17:54] |
| BingoBoingo: | "Recollectors" | [17:54] |
| BingoBoingo: | There's these nice dumpsters that don't catch on fire all that often and… anything that might have any value at all gets dug out. | [17:56] |
| jfw: | mm, yeah pretty sure we have those too | [17:56] |
| jfw: | "we" lol, I better be careful | [17:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | "Protestors" will also empty dumpsters when their candidate/team/etc loses | [17:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, '12 year night' nice cathartic film to watch up until the last act. | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006423 was in part re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006252 because I gather you still want to finish getting fully up to date with the logs but atm there's no eta on that. | [18:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 17:46:43 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [18:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 13:44:21 jfw: diana_coman: technically less than 2 months (of log to get through) as I've followed since Sep 14, but your point stands. I'm at a loss re plan, logically I gotta either get more efficient or make more time. I have improved on both so far, fwiw. I'll try to come up with something more concrete. | [18:03] |
| jfw: | oh yeah whoops, was digging on that. It's something like 25h/week in the preparation, transit & lessons. Anyway, I'd indeed like to finish the full readthrough but don't think it's a prerequisite of deciding | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: hm, that would logically leave more than 9 work-hours available per week though even at 8h*5days employee-mode. | [18:22] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, I'll be back tomorrow. | [18:30] |
| jfw: | Preparing for potential business takes time too, as does planning/reflecting. Last two weeks blog setup and re-setup took time as I mentioned. And there's current log reading. I'm sure I'm not as efficient as I could be, but there's no "20 hours a week watching netflix" or anything I can obviously cut. | [18:31] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: I fixed the obvious errors in my post and restructured the post a bit as well. | [18:50] |
| jfw: | Something's been persistently bugging me about my last line there. I think it's that I was unnecessarily defensive: perhaps diana_coman had not jumped to the conclusion of "that jfw is a lazy bum" as I seem to have assumed, or there was a simple misunderstanding | [19:56] |
| jfw: | and re-reading, I think that misunderstanding is that in haste I missed the "or do you do other stuff too?", so answered narrowly about time spent on current clients, which answer was then interpreted broadly as that's all I do. | [20:02] |
| jfw: | So yes, I do other things, some of which listed above; perhaps I oughta write a post to take stock of them properly. | [20:08] |
| jfw: | back from handwashing dishes; the model around here seems to be "What dishwasher? Either you afford slaves, or you slave." And I don't think myself in the first category as yet. | [20:53] |
| jfw: | Speaking of efficiency, perhaps room for improvement in that it took me 1.5hr to figure out the "do other stuff too" thing, which time wasn't getting filed under #ossasepia but nonetheless wasn't otherwise gainfully used. There mighta been some spinning involved before organized thought. Still, for now I'm glad to have figured it out at | [21:10] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2017-04-07 mircea_popescu: no, let's also de-equivocate think. there's two kinds of think, one's a forge/reflow/examination of trees resulting in analytical consumption of inputs with actionable outputs guaranteed ; the other is a neurotic behaviour perhaps best described as spinning, whereby specific emotional triggers / detriggers are visited in succession. the prussian model was never concerned with the former in any sense, but merely aimed to elimi | [21:10] |
| jfw: | all, rather than go on spinning along the lines of "diana_coman is a maniacal slavedriver and I can never sleep again, or I'm inadequate for unfathomable reasons" | [21:10] |
| jfw: | And I hope I'm doing better at the open communication now. | [21:12] |
| jfw: | ahoy dorion | [22:57] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006393 << that'd be me. | [22:57] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:21:51 jfw: The business is with a friend I met in Panama, who assures me he'll be dropping in here soon. I came originally in 2013, just to get established somewhere non-US and it had easy-ish residence and favorable taxes for my situation at the time. | [22:57] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: dorion is the fellow that got me to give trilema / then-#bitcoin-assets a second glance after whatever triggered me on first encounter, stock exchange without stylesheet or necessity of beating women or something. | [23:07] |
| jfw: | His other credits include the aforementioned stillborn business plan, the present so-far-so-good one and closing the current clients | [23:09] |
| jfw: | dorion: though we know it's but the first step, I'm proud of you for showing up here. | [23:11] |
| jfw: | We've been stuck in some kind of a mutual encouragement yet avoidance-enablement pact. | [23:12] |
| jfw: | I'd be witholding information not to say that I was crying like a little girl earlier, telling him over irc why he needs to join, and Now. | [23:16] |
| jfw: | The neighbors are probably wondering who died; as far as I could tell it was gonna be either my 5-year best friends relationship with him, my potential relationships with ~everyone here, or a particularly stubborn bit of our own stupidity. | [23:18] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc. | [23:24] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too? | [23:24] |
| jfw: | It will be. | [23:26] |
| jfw: | BingoBoingo: maybe I'll add that film to my list if it can be found outside the border, because you called it cathartic and how about that coincidence. | [23:29] |
| BingoBoingo: | jfw: It's however many minutes of Pepe Mujica and some other pichis getting what is theirs. Just when they return him to the Punta Carretas Prison/Shopping… It's time to end the film. From there (spoiler) he lives and becomes president. | [23:36] |
| dorion: | diana_coman as for why I'm here: to sharpen myself for sound money and sane computing. | [23:36] |
| BingoBoingo: | So make sure to end it on a high note. | [23:36] |
| jfw: | One thing we're up to, though dorion more than I, is studying management, because it's necessary for what we're trying to do and we seem to suck at it. | [23:36] |
| jfw: | haha, ty BingoBoingo. | [23:37] |
| BingoBoingo: | There's another more recent documentary where Pepe waxes nostalgic about robbing banks with his .45 etc, if you need context for why the police shot him in the street. | [23:40] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006391 << to add more context to this and with the luxury of hindsight, the original also included premature optimatizations such as a) make a linux from scratch cause no way to 'catalyst' a gentoo stage3 without a gentoo and b) implement scheme interpreter because even though jfw is strong with python, "not specified, does anyone even | [23:51] |
| dorion: | ~understand~ the thing?" | [23:51] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-15 20:18:42 jfw: Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training. | [23:51] |
#ossasepia Logs for 14 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well done. | [03:15] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: noted, thanks. | [03:22] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I've caught up on the week's log, and in backlog reading I've made it to Aug 1. Lots of good stuff in there; I haven't been summarizing really, but at least clipping parts for future reference. | [04:37] |
| jfw: | The most specifically enlightening so far regarding my main question have been these lines | [04:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-30 10:59:00 diana_coman: shrysr: so you know, leave that part to me since you want to learn with me: stick to what I set for you to do and only that; write anything "new and shiny" in the "I might be interested in this" but do NOT just follow it blindly | [04:38] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Aug-2019#999871 – I'd better note that my own (homemade) client doesn't notify on mentions; I'll have to decide whether to implement or get something else set up | [04:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-01 11:26:00 diana_coman: shrysr: doesn't your irc client notify in any way when your name is said? it should, set it up properly. | [04:43] |
| jfw: | I got my blog back up, now without the extra complexity of gatewaying: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/ , 198.199.70.97 | [04:46] |
| jfw: | Running on a CentOS 6 VPS with stock "yum install mysql-server php php-mysql httpd", seems to work fine so far. | [04:47] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Oct-2019#1006214 – so far httpd is behaving as documented in the manual, unlike on gentoo; though it's apache 2.2 which isn't quite compatible with 2.4 in config directives. | [04:53] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-13 16:32:50 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I do not at the moment, if centos requires a magic incantation others don't. Ended up building apache and php from source, whatever solution I produce will almost certainly not be applicable for whatever retardation they customize their httpd with | [04:53] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Oct-2019#1005694 – perhaps I can answer this minor mystery: fstab, being located on the root filesystem, cannot be referenced in order to first mount the root filesystem. Thus it has to figure it out somehow. The ext code (not sure where) tries different versions until finding one with the needed feature set. So the "feature incompatibilities" warning, | [05:00] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-12 05:59:47 diana_coman: I don't get why it's trying to mount it as ext3; fstab clearly say ext4 for /dev/sda2, ugh | [05:00] |
| jfw: | while ugly, doesn't in itself indicate a problem. Something in userspace then has to come remount according to fstab – that'd be the missing init.d/root script. | [05:00] |
| jfw: | (Though if you bake an initrd, you can have it find the root disk however you want.) | [05:04] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006232 – yes, this is so, after that I went and read the docs which said exactly that. | [09:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 05:00:51 jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Oct-2019#1005694 – perhaps I can answer this minor mystery: fstab, being located on the root filesystem, cannot be referenced in order to first mount the root filesystem. Thus it has to figure it out somehow. The ext code (not sure where) tries different versions until finding one with the needed feature set. So the "feature incompatibilities" warning, | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what's your plan though because if you've made it to Aug 1, there are stil more than 2 months of logs and at this rate it's unclear you'll get to even read it all any time soon, lol. | [09:03] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what did you write your irc client in? | [09:04] |
| asciilifeform: | waves to diana_coman | [12:00] |
| diana_coman: | ohai asciilifeform ; how's the bmore /dc stuff ? | [12:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: no word yet. i'ma call'em again today. | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | I kind of suspect they don't really want the biz | [12:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i figure, they'll have to say ~sumthing~ tho. | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | if they pick up, yes, lol | [12:02] |
| asciilifeform: | indeed | [12:02] |
| diana_coman: | atm I fired up a few more emails to south africans this time; they *seem* at least less stuck up re account, will see | [12:02] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'm reluctant to simply set the bozo bit w/out prodding'em, it appears to be the only dc within range of asciilifeform's hands | [12:03] |
| diana_coman: | sure, nothing to lose; do probe to exhaustion. | [12:03] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: update : got a this, rather similar to what you got from that eu isp. answer'd 'would like to get in writing what precisely happens during a ddos that gets past your 'protection' '. then asked to set up voice call, lessee where goes. | [13:14] |
| asciilifeform: | '95-th percentile' == 36 hours / mo of 'unbillable' peak traffic. the q is what happens during e.g. 40hr flood. | [13:15] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: technically less than 2 months (of log to get through) as I've followed since Sep 14, but your point stands. I'm at a loss re plan, logically I gotta either get more efficient or make more time. I have improved on both so far, fwiw. I'll try to come up with something more concrete. | [13:44] |
| jfw: | irc client is in python 2.7, with VT100 interface | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: looking at it overall, I quite suspect you are not all that used to cutting straight to the heart of the matter really; and this might not be all that great for this sort of situation | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what are your doubts anyway as you didn't make them public anywhere, did you? | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=MRFB | [14:03] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman , i'ma try nao | [14:04] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: uploading 'r2' . is there a url i can point people to where will show up ? | [14:07] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: not atm; not fully sure how best to set this up | [14:08] |
| diana_coman: | obv, I should set it up one way or another | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: is it any faster than to loper-os? | [14:09] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: afaik simplest method is to give apache a vhost entry where the ftp's homedir is the / | [14:09] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can't say yet, my ftp client dun show progress. timing it by hand. | [14:10] |
| diana_coman: | I guess so (re vhost); I'll add it to list for later today | [14:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman | [14:11] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I didn't, but can if you'd like. The only one still vaguely standing is: "what does submission here really mean?" i.e., do I know what I'm getting myself into. I surmise that can't really be known for certain, and then I think I've got a pretty good picture already | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what are you afraid of there? because that's what the above actually says. | [14:12] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: actually pretty good : 1700 kB/s. | [14:17] |
| asciilifeform: | (uploaded.) | [14:17] |
| jfw: | hmm. what comes to mind is, whether I can handle the pressure. But I figure I should trust you to judge that. | [14:19] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: not bad; at any rate, it should be useful at least as mirror if nothing else; good. | [14:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it's quite fast, and ty for the mirror. lemme know when you get a chance to set up readability for it. | [14:19] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: you need to communicate more though; I can't see at this distance and (at least so far), you've been rather…closed, let's say. | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I'll ping you when it's done, yes; and np. | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: how much time do you/did you spend weekly on this log-catch up thing anyway? | [14:21] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: okay… I am pretty introverted, I've long found it takes me time to 'open up'. Let me check re log. | [14:26] |
| jfw: | about 9 hrs last week and 6 this week | [14:29] |
| jfw: | got a bit distracted this week following the pizarro happenings | [14:31] |
| jfw: | (~8 hrs reading #trilema log) | [14:32] |
| jfw: | Gotta head to saltmine shortly but I'll be free tomorrow. | [14:33] |
| diana_coman: | hm, ok. | [14:39] |
| jfw: | Back from the mines – wherein I'm teaching some computing noobs how to operate civilized machines. Five weeks ago they didn't know 'ls' from 'cd', now they've configured tty baudrates and compiled their first kernel. | [21:00] |
| jfw: | It gives me some perspective as to, yes, you gotta do as teacher says: because if not, for example, you're liable to get lost in the jungle of premature lines of inquiry | [21:02] |
| jfw: | I'm glad to be doing this as opposed to, say, "making apps" to keep dumbasses dumb; but it's still saltmining in the sense that it's for pay and I'd rather be… here | [21:05] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Oct-2019#1006276 – while this is part of it, I don't want to hide behind it like "oh, just the way I am, no further exploration possible" | [21:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-14 14:26:17 jfw: diana_coman: okay… I am pretty introverted, I've long found it takes me time to 'open up'. Let me check re log. | [21:08] |
| jfw: | I think there's some subconscious 'towards-purposing' in it: that I want people to like me and thus worry too much about what I say, with obvious result that they don't know what to think. I'd like to believe I'm an inner-directed type who doesn't care, but can't deny that I do, at least for SOME people – including diana_coman | [21:15] |
| jfw: | For example I had a chat with shryser the other day, who's just as much if not more of a stranger, and didn't have trouble being open. "Because I didn't care nearly as much" – seems to fit. | [21:20] |
| jfw: | *I didn't have trouble | [21:20] |
| jfw: | whereas upon http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002507 , what went through my head was "eek, I'm messing up already!" | [21:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 05:03:13 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002492 – if by "build system" you mean autoconf and make and all that shit, uhm; if you want to do something useful in this direction of builds, you should install cuntoo | [21:24] |
| jfw: | (and to revisit the content of the above – yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.) | [21:29] |
#ossasepia Logs for 13 Oct 2019
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: congrats ! | [00:05] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know, when get chance, re if last-min. changes to cookbook that oughta be published, i'ma roll'em in when wake up. | [00:06] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: other than those in yesterday's log (eg the pl2303 kernel option) there was I think only an issue with the mirrors set in /etc/portage/make.conf since a few of them were not responding anymore and the whole thing would grind to a halt waiting/retrying on them; the .pl one comes to mind ; at any rate, I'll want to have everything local really so I don't need any mirrors but that can | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | work of course only for a clearly defined set of needed packages so not sure there's anything for the recipe in there. | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: "There are other examples, but I have run out of time to cover them." – bwahahaha, this asks for a good beating, you know? looking at roi on time spent is one thing but skipping stuff with "there's more but I ran out of time, so get lost" is an entirely different thing. | [03:53] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: "I don't know much about the author, and haven't read much of her blog, or her work in general," – the first part (I don't know much about X) may happen, it's a fact and so it only is; but the 2nd part is your utter failing and bad habit: confronted with the fact, you decided it did not matter, which is a very stupid thing to do. | [03:55] |
| diana_coman: | so no, if you don't know, you don't just wing it, wtf! you *should have read much of her blog* to find out! yes, summarizing ONE piece may mean having to read a whole lot more, absolutely. | [03:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re conclusion that "doesn't come naturally": so you did this in whatever few hours you decided upfront it "should take" ; there is clearly some evolution from the initial mess; what do you think you've got for the time you spent on it? what do you think you need to do next to advance further on this direction? | [04:00] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: lolz, pretentious much? worthy of your time, really. | [04:02] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the separation tmsr/non-tmsr doesn't work on the lines you make it there: tmsr is not "just technical", that's idiocy; and if you insist at keeping tmsr separate/secret/that-thing-which-is-not-exactly-what-I-am, you are just headed for utter failure (possibly after some longish amount of misery) | [07:34] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: similarly, you can't really be at the same time a great app-whore for assorted idiots and a man; if you insist with it, you'll just end up (at best) as the equivalent of a drag queen I suppose but it's really very unhealthy; you are better off bum-surfing for sure, in this case, since you get to actually enjoy some sort of life at least. | [07:38] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: finally, this approach that you'll make that plan and the other + time it and all will suddenly be great is 1. unlikely to work (and you seem to already have some experience that it doesn't) 2. incompatible really with a mentor; if you want to do your own thing, then go and do your own thing but mind the required [http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1003986][big goal & | [07:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:27:48 diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too – set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it – e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me" | [07:41] |
| diana_coman: | deadline] | [07:41] |
| whaack: | diana_coman. good morning. 1) i see how the title comes off as pretentious and wish i could change it now 2) i guess i split into two categories because i didn't know whether or not items in section 2 were worth writing about for your consideration. but i understand first hand the problem w/ having tmsr as a secret side part, 3) re app-whoring. i can afford to snip this part out of my life, but i thought that its more prudent to g | [09:07] |
| whaack: | o into the software dev biz with the 'extract' rather than 'work from' mindset instead of just floating off the cash i have now. but perhaps there is a 3rd option i am not seeing. 4) i do not think i'm better off on my own. i should have concluded with "this is what i think is important to me, i hope this gives diana_coman something to work with re telling me what to do" | [09:07] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: there is a difference between "I'll have to eat some shit for subsistence for now" and "I want to become great at eating shit" | [09:10] |
| whaack: | lol | [09:10] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: realise that it's only what you write there that exist; there is this potential problem with distance-based help: since you aren't here, I can't look at you and see more than what you say/write. | [09:14] |
| diana_coman: | exists*, gah | [09:14] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: re software dev extract, as long as you make sure it's you doing the extracting and not the other way around, it can work; but note that each and every thing you do is still "you" and so, ideally, you'd still want to do something useful to yourself at least rather than damaging to yourself, that's the rub. | [09:16] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what are those "few programming languages" you say you learnt | [09:18] |
| whaack: | okay. i will try to put myself in your shoes being the person reading what i write so i can convey better. i realize that i didn't do that at all | [09:18] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: trouble is that you didn't really say much there; you classified the hell out of 3 beans basically | [09:19] |
| diana_coman: | it's not about putting yourself in my shoes (ha!), that's a bit silly in that 1. you won't have just one reader; if you have only 1, then it's conversation so it belongs here 2. if you could put yourself in my shoes, then you wouldn't need me at all. | [09:20] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you can and should, of course, review whatever you write ie read it after a while and see if/to which degree it makes sense | [09:21] |
| whaack: | well list of all the languages i have worked with in jobs/internships/school is: python, javascript, perl, go, ruby, c, and java | [09:21] |
| diana_coman: | but that's quite a different thing and unrelated to a specific reader | [09:21] |
| diana_coman: | o.O programming since you were 12 + bachelor at MIT and that's the whole list? | [09:22] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: btw the "save for another post" is such a shit; wtf, don't save anything, put it/link it there | [09:24] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter what, is your cv secret or anything? presumably you already have it anyway; plonk it somewhere on the site and link it, what | [09:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: say something. | [09:25] |
| whaack: | also scheme, and i learned a bit of cl on my own | [09:25] |
| whaack: | and a language autoscript v3 and some php a while back | [09:26] |
| diana_coman: | rather important to mention because it's a whole different category, you know? given your significant efforts at classifications otherwise | [09:27] |
| whaack: | from all those i would say the only one i know even somewhat well now though is python | [09:27] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: anything for parallel architectures? | [09:27] |
| whaack: | no | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | adjusts MIT-image in own head, lol | [09:30] |
| whaack: | lol | [09:30] |
| whaack: | re my resume looking at it now it's so embarrassing i think it'd be easier for me to load and link nudes | [09:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ahahaha; well, you can do both, I don't mind; but why exactly? | [09:31] |
| whaack: | b.c. 1) it shows i've accomplished nothing 2) it is dishonest (most noteably i have proficient in CL) on it | [09:33] |
| whaack: | i'm uploading it now, i removed my phone number/contact from it but nothing else. | [09:38] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: lol, ok. | [09:38] |
| whaack: | it's a pdf though, would you link me to text dump it? | [09:39] |
| whaack: | er change it into a .txt ? | [09:39] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: it's ok, I'll read it on the toilet-comp | [09:40] |
| whaack: | http://ztkfg.com/wp-content/uploads/WillHaackResumeNoAddr.pdf | [09:43] |
| diana_coman: | if I search for those exams I get a boatload of "how to score" and ~nothing on the content they supposedly cover, lolz. | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so you did summer internships only and then landed this remote job after graduating; is that correct? | [09:50] |
| whaack: | correct, i never did a job full time. | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: for that matter, does MIT do now only one degree? what was it exactly, lol | [09:51] |
| whaack: | Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (Course 6-3) | [09:53] |
| diana_coman: | "introduction to CS programming in Python", jeez | [09:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: was there actual electrical engineering too? from their curriculum at least I can't spot it | [09:56] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw the "cs requirements" at least sounds a not-terrible list but ofc those are only titles | [09:57] |
| whaack: | So within the EECS department there are three degrees 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3. 6-1 is pure EE, 6-2 is a mixture, and 6-3 is just software engineering (this may have changed a bit, the last year i was there they altered the curriculum slightly) | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | apparently computation structures should have had some amount of hardware design; did it? | [09:58] |
| whaack: | yes it did, but i ~failed that course | [10:00] |
| diana_coman: | tsk | [10:00] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: re that "reading technique" – what's with the focus on speed of reading? how's the understanding? | [10:02] |
| whaack: | lol i guess that's my superficialness shining | [10:03] |
| whaack: | i don't know the best way to go about measuring my understanding | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ok; since you know python best, you'll start there: get the python V and review it in a post including annotating the code; what are you reading currently? | [10:07] |
| whaack: | the odyssey | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | ha; in latin? :D | [10:07] |
| whaack: | George Palmer's translation | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | can already wince at some summaries of that | [10:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: are you familiar otherwise with greek writings or how did you get to it? | [10:10] |
| whaack: | no i just chose it randomly while in a bookstore | [10:11] |
| diana_coman: | surprisingly fine for a random choice, there is that; anyways, how's it going then? | [10:12] |
| whaack: | uh poorly. i haven't been reading for a while now | [10:14] |
| whaack: | and by a while, i mean before i went to Costa Rica to get my lease | [10:16] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: lol! ok, for the time being you get on to V and figure out what it is, why it is, how it works and how is it implemented in the python version; note that there are a few reference posts on V so mandatory part of any of this | [10:18] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: if you need to, cut the above up in smaller steps and plan what you tackle this week | [10:19] |
| whaack: | as for the actual reading comprehension i've had while reading it, i would say that it has been a bit of a struggle. he switches how he refers to characters (by name, by title) and sometimes i have to go back and cross reference. | [10:19] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: write your review of last week + plan for next; as it's already Sunday you get an extra day this week, so deadline for review+plan is end of Monday | [10:20] |
| whaack: | i feel i need to improve my short term memory, or find a way to cope with my low one. | [10:20] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: ack | [10:21] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: well, you can always make notes for one thing; in this specific case though the deeper trouble is probably the fact that you lack any familiarity with the context really; it's not just a piece by itself | [10:21] |
| diana_coman: | then again, you have to start *somewhere* anyway. | [10:22] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: any questions? | [10:23] |
| diana_coman: | (and hopefully I won't have to keep asking this) | [10:23] |
| whaack: | i have some but i will see if i can answer them myself first. (they are simple like – link to python v?) | [10:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: heh, ok. | [10:24] |
| whaack: | be back in a bit. i'm going to get the review + plan done tonight since i have a busy Monday with saltmines and meatwot obligations. | [10:29] |
| diana_coman: | works. | [10:34] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Oct-2019#1006052 << What should I have done here? Maybe I could have examined each case in more detail and if they were the same problem, coul have said so, and if not, noted the difference. | [11:36] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-13 03:53:27 diana_coman: thimbronion: "There are other examples, but I have run out of time to cover them." – bwahahaha, this asks for a good beating, you know? looking at roi on time spent is one thing but skipping stuff with "there's more but I ran out of time, so get lost" is an entirely different thing. | [11:36] |
| whaack: | back. doing a bit of cr prep and then onto writing review/plan. | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: yes. | [11:44] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Oct-2019#1006055 << Is this what should be in the conclusion? | [11:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-13 04:00:36 diana_coman: thimbronion: re conclusion that "doesn't come naturally": so you did this in whatever few hours you decided upfront it "should take" ; there is clearly some evolution from the initial mess; what do you think you've got for the time you spent on it? what do you think you need to do next to advance further on this direction? | [11:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: given what you wrote, those are the lines the conclusions flows on, yes; not much of a conclusion of review since review is not finished really but at least a conclusion of the exercise, hence ~what was learnt here. | [11:47] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: trying to figure out what to do next. I need to write my review + plan in roughly the next hour, and I'm not sure what action I should take next regarding the conclusion. | [11:51] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: can you draw that sort of conclusion directly in the review? | [12:01] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes. | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | so then add it there; this week focus on the irc mainly; take a break from summarizing stuff as most blogs are still offline anyway | [12:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: will do. | [12:20] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: for the review, i plan to post it on younghands and then link to it from my blog. i will go over my successes/failures of the todolist you had me make, which includes the my-interests post. i plan to copy shrysr's format, is there an outline you gave him? | [12:25] |
| asciilifeform: | waves to diana_coman | [12:26] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: no outline given; format is entirely up to you; the rest sounds fine. | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | hi asciilifeform ; I'm getting to the conclusion here that trying to jam both prod and dev servers on same machine is really NOT worth it, ugh. | [12:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it is my understanding that you had these on separate machines prior | [12:33] |
| asciilifeform: | adding diana_coman's commentary into cookbook for publication | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I did, yes; on one hand I wanted to find out if using same machine is even really feasible (despite my previous idea that it's not; apparently I should have stuck to that idea) | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | and on the other hand, I had this machine ready anyway | [12:34] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: current draft . comments invited. | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: btw, post the plan on younghands too or I might not get to see it timely. | [12:38] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes, both the review and plan will be on younghands | [12:39] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you have time, plox to review the final cut of cookbook. | [12:41] |
| asciilifeform: | brb:teatime | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: can that wait until tomorrow? today I rather need to get to the bottom of this server trouble. | [12:43] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: aite. i'ma deed the current draft, if major mistakes are found, will post corrections as before. | [13:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma next make a usbstick install of the item, to replace the heathen iso ref'd to in the cookbook, and containing the actual tarball. so as to make possible single-stick (and optionally using rs232 console) installs . | [13:34] |
| asciilifeform: | needs this personally, but may be of use to people setting up fleets of boxen containing this item or even cuntoo . | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: thank you; re ftp account I did not forget and it's on the list but most probably tomorrow. | [13:36] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman . re 'one-stick', it may prove necessary for remote installs in leased iron, typically teleoperated kvm permits ~one~ virtual 'disk' to be emplaced. | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: that's something I will have to learn about, it would seem; sigh. | [13:38] |
| whaack: | This weeks review: http://younghands.club/2019/10/review-of-week-05-oct-7th-oct-14th/ | [14:22] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: no need to ping, feedbot will do it for me anyway | [14:28] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: ah okay | [14:30] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: when you have 5min, can plz paste your list of currently ~working gentoo mirrors? ty | [15:47] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i'd rather not put the stone-dead ones in the new tar ) | [15:47] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: apropos : as soon as i actually get a box in that cage (or maxim's, whichever comes 1st) will make a mirror. cuz wtf heathen mirrors. | [15:48] |
| shinohai: | http://packages.gentooexperimental.org is one of few working heathen mirrors for me | [15:59] |
| asciilifeform: | shinohai: there's 3 types : stone-dead; has-packages but missing 'ohnoez obsolete' (per shitgnomes) versions; and, the rarest, 'actually has 10y of tarballs' | [16:00] |
| asciilifeform: | so far i only have type-1 and type-2 | [16:00] |
| shinohai: | ive been slowly assembling own packages like gpg-1.4.10 and gcc-4.9.4 on there | [16:01] |
| shinohai: | so always handy | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | shinohai: these erryone has ( the latter is in fact in the published gentoo . ) the problems typically happen w/ smaller, moar-obscure dependencies , libs, etc. | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | as with e.g. the mysql shitsoup | [16:02] |
| shinohai: | dunno you know me, i avoid mysql like plague >.< | [16:03] |
| asciilifeform: | shinohai: idea is to eventually collect all the pieces that cannot be done without, from the folx who dun avoid. | [16:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yeah, I'd rather not have any mirrors and tbh I tend to install stuff offline anyway | [16:04] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: when all tarballs collected, can in fact dispense w/ the mirrors and put'em in the stick image. | [16:04] |
| diana_coman: | I guess so; it was the mysql one that I had to hunt for (I actually had it in one of the backups too but I managed to find a mirror still having it too because as you say, there are those that obsolete bla) | [16:05] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: fwiw errything that's actually in the dulap gentoo , is also found in its /usr/portage/distfiles. (i'ma separate'em out of the tar and make dir on the installer stick from which copied to same during install, so folx can add) | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: is the plan here to have another deed? | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | or can I take and check current one or what? | [16:05] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the current one is usable (it's what you used) but i am sewing a '1stick' installer . | [16:06] |
| diana_coman: | ah, ok; let me first check this as promised | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | this, when i test it and find it satisfactory, will also deed. | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: possibly i ought to include e.g. ave1's gnat, or other items that diana_coman deems essential, in the installer. | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | vtron for instance. | [16:07] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: correct the category on one of your posts | [16:07] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: idea is to make a '10 minute' installer system . | [16:07] |
| diana_coman: | whaack, thimbronion, shrysr add to titles your initials differentiate in the recent posts too | [16:08] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and one that can actually be used on teleoperated boxen. the current one, is difficult to do this with, for the reasons discussed ) | [16:08] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I got it; but currently I promised MP I'll check your deeded recipe *today* so this is 1st priority | [16:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: plz do. my next item is to be made 100\% from the current one. | [16:09] |
| asciilifeform: | ( plus any additions nominated by diana_coman for inclusion ) | [16:09] |
| asciilifeform: | baking a bootable stick that is actually made of dulap-gentoo as portrayed in the recipe, rather than rando heathen-ftp item used to boot for baking the orig. | [16:11] |
| asciilifeform: | brb:tea | [16:11] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: gnat, vpatch, and some vtron would be nice to have packaged for a future '10 minute' version. | [16:13] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: done. also fixed spelling of profile name from haak -> haack (category was already correctly spelled haack) | [16:13] |
| BingoBoingo: | wondering why the fuck linux distributions keep up the pretense they are different things when everything needs compiled by hand anyways | [16:13] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: funnily enough I actually used precisely the same gentoo livedvd iso as you list in the recipe | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | only now I realised | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: at point 3 that adjust until target disk is /dev/sda, ugh; for that matter, it really should work on *any* block device, no? did you check re lilo (as the only iffy part I can think of atm)? | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: well, pretense is cheap and dear to they pretending. | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | re distributions, I think there should be mysql and postgres too. | [16:27] |
| BingoBoingo: | once has blog back will chronicle the CentOS process and offer apache and php tarballs | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: do you happen to have at hand the magic incantation to make the permalinks work on mpwp on centos? I know there was something and it's somewhere deep in my centos-install notes but didn't yet get to excavate it for thimbronion | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | if you don't have it, don't worry & esp don't spend time on it, I'll dig it up tomorrow | [16:31] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: I do not at the moment, if centos requires a magic incantation others don't. Ended up building apache and php from source, whatever solution I produce will almost certainly not be applicable for whatever retardation they customize their httpd with | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: no no, it was something to do with enabling rewrite mode in apache (because that's how the permalinks work) + the env of the dir so that the permissions take or similar; but nm, tomorrow I get around to all the notes anyway so I'll spit it out. | [16:35] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Ah, ty. I will keep a look out. | [16:36] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma attempt a run where dev is 'sdb' . | [16:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I fixed my permalink issue by setting AllowOverride to All in httpd.conf for the directory mp-wp is in. | [21:05] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-13#1945418 << forgot to mention, it has to be a fs that aint what you're running from, when doing this. (gotta boot w/stick) otherwise symlinks will break. | [22:54] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-13 asciilifeform: diana_coman: to ~make~ a tarball that can be used in place of 'r2', using a working install w/ whatevr customizations in it, mount the fs at a /mnt/gentoo and then e.g. tar pcvfz diana_coman-gentoo.tar.gz /mnt/gentoo . this snapshot can then be used to replicate to whatever others. | [22:54] |
#ossasepia Logs for 12 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Oct-2019#1005672 – *when* should you have asked this? | [03:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 16:59:36 whaack: a little update on my interests post. first, i thought this was understood but i want to clarify with you diana_coman that this post is not supposed to be a continuation of previous/future tmsr work but instead a list of the things that i am personally interested in. (that would be aeparate post that will come later.) second, i've come up with six categories: pr | [03:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: happily for you this time, the post is indeed a list of your interests, not a revision of the previous post, no; outline at this stage sounds ok but it's hard to say much on it at that level (other than you seem perhaps to overwork the classification before you even got in clear exactly what content you have; it generally works the other way around) | [03:57] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: thank you for the updated recipe, I'll try it out today. | [03:57] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: done, booted successfully, I'll have to still check everything but will run it also on at least one more amd today | [04:47] |
| diana_coman: | and I tweaked an option at kernel compile time so my usual kbd works as well, lolz. | [04:52] |
| diana_coman: | the sort of thing that works way better when not totally tired like yest. | [04:53] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: hm, apparently the recipe though results in / mounted as read-only ?! | [05:54] |
| diana_coman: | from dmesg: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=45Rh | [05:58] |
| diana_coman: | I don't get why it's trying to mount it as ext3; fstab clearly say ext4 for /dev/sda2, ugh | [05:59] |
| diana_coman: | mk, I added to boot line rootfstype=ext4 and that at least got read of trying to mount it as ext3; onth, it's STILL read-only, grrr | [06:09] |
| diana_coman: | got rid* | [06:30] |
| diana_coman: | at least remount works fine so hm | [06:30] |
| asciilifeform: | guten tag diana_coman . lemme check re these oddities, 1s | [08:37] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: confirmed, a) root mounts ro . will find out why ( did not occur, naturally, on actual dulap ) b) sad python. confirmed. may have occurred on actual dulap and fixed after imaging (or phuctor, lol, could never have worked ) . didja ever look on smg-primary ? had to also fix there ? | [08:39] |
| diana_coman: | morning asciilifeform ; let me know what you find; I'll be around | [08:39] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I don't recall having to fix python, no | [08:40] |
| diana_coman: | then again, eulora doesn't actually use any python as such | [08:40] |
| diana_coman: | meanwhile it's on my to-check list, hence ?! | [08:41] |
| asciilifeform: | i suppose we see when you get the backup cut up | [08:41] |
| asciilifeform: | mine, naturally, was troo-python (none of my proggies will execute under 3, it's exotically broken) | [08:41] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: the idea is/was that if I'm fine with the backups I have, then disks get destroyed, not sent about | [08:41] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i rec to recreate machine before burnin' | [08:41] |
| diana_coman: | and my backups are of smg data, not of the system | [08:42] |
| asciilifeform: | aha | [08:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: this is why I'm installing dulaps, no? | [08:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: righto | [08:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: fwiw i had my disks sent, cuz they did not contain any proprietaries that hadn't already been stolen w/ the last dulap | [08:42] |
| asciilifeform: | anyway i'ma go vivisect the tester, brb | [08:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: well, eulora server is a bit of a different thing, hence rather not send unless have-to | [08:43] |
| diana_coman: | kk | [08:43] |
| diana_coman: | I'll be away for about 30 minutes and then back at console | [08:44] |
| asciilifeform: | np | [08:45] |
| asciilifeform: | i expect will take at least that long, still waking up as the sun goes up. | [08:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i expect (1) is sumthing to do with ext4, on orig dulap had set up w/ reiser but did not want to propagandize the use of obsolete fs . looking into why mounts ro. | [08:54] |
| asciilifeform: | btw i also used mbr, rather than gpt, on orig, updated recipe so people could use >2tb disks. may be culprit (req's diff options) | [09:07] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I was rather surprised at using gpt tbh; and why do you start first partition at 64? | [09:18] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: was looking just nao re why. apparently no good reason, carried over from rk recipe (where the chipset actually required it) , can just as well start from 1 | [09:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: also found culprit re why mounts readonly ext4. the boot stick mkfs.ext4 enables 'huge files' opt by default, which needs kernel flag, aboutta rebuild w/ same | [09:20] |
| asciilifeform: | will add all of this to recipe. | [09:20] |
| diana_coman: | kk, thanks | [09:20] |
| asciilifeform: | re python, apparently was in fact defect in the orig install, and had fixed immediately when setting up phuctor. | [09:21] |
| asciilifeform: | will add also to recipe. (or, alternatively, will make a new fs tarball) | [09:21] |
| asciilifeform: | still reading dox re (1) , cuz seems as if it may be red herring (applies only on 32bit kernels??) | [09:23] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: re gpt — >2tb raid arrays require it. i didnt have one, but intend to when rebuild dulap, hence the patch. | [09:25] |
| diana_coman: | ah, ok re gpt. | [09:26] |
| asciilifeform: | update : confirmed that 'huge files' item is red herring, it is unneeded on 64bit kern. so continuing dig. | [09:32] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: good morning. I should have clarified the task assignment upon receiving it. The reworking of my classification came after writing content and realizing that my 'programming' section was ~identical to my cryptography section. This follows from the fact that work related to crytographic tools is the ~only interesting programming work. At least for me. | [09:39] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: morning; programming ~= controlling computers and if you want to do crypto, you kind of need to actually control your hardware so unless you have something other than existing computers, you need to know stuff around crypto itself as well; that being said, there's no problem in saying that your interest is in crypto really and that's it; ie you will learn anything else you need for & around | [09:42] |
| diana_coman: | it but that's your goal, sure. | [09:43] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: found the eggog. without ancient notes, would never have found, troo cascade of liquishit. so, when made this tar, used 'exclude' command, with 'root'. and wrong regexp. so in fact 'evaporated' the initd script in /etc/init.d/root . which is what remounts / as rw . | [10:17] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i suspect that the Right Thing nao is to roll new tarball , replace the prev. | [10:19] |
| asciilifeform: | but 1st lemme demostrate the fix : | [10:19] |
| asciilifeform: | 1st remount as rw : mount -o remount,rw ; then this goes in /etc/init.d/root ; then rc-update add root boot ; then reset. get proper boot. | [10:20] |
| asciilifeform: | incidentally in /etc/fstab, prolly want ramdisk, | [10:21] |
| asciilifeform: | shm /dev/shm tmpfs nodev,nosuid,noexec 0 0 | [10:21] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma make new dump tarball. | [10:24] |
| asciilifeform: | incl. correctly-sel'd python. | [10:24] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: all right; what's the eta re new tarball? | [10:24] |
| asciilifeform: | hr+. gotta write to slow usbstick and then upload to snail server. | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | I did precisely the remount earlier but anyway, didn't fix python otherwise so didn't really want to go ahead with all the rest on it as it is | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw at least the recipe worked with same results on a 2nd amd on a gigabyte board | [10:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma start. | [10:26] |
| diana_coman: | so there is some support to "will work on various amd platforms" | [10:26] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ok, thanks. | [10:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it's expected to work on any amd after k7. | [10:26] |
| asciilifeform: | 1s, gotta redo, forgot to 'make clean' in '/usr/src/linux', will massively bloat the tarball | [10:37] |
| diana_coman: | heh | [10:44] |
| asciilifeform: | uploading. | [10:47] |
| asciilifeform: | steps 3-12, 3-18 should no longer be needed. | [10:50] |
| asciilifeform: | upload oughta be done in ~30m | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | sha512==51b339fd922497bbd11abc38375b54beb01a9737af55dd4114c328023927ce07e2bd90a6c9b1a3f793b862dc951b0ae438bfd3591c295254982c880c89190787 meanwhile. | [10:53] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://thimbron.com/?p=282 | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you have a ftp going on 1 of those cheapo leased machines, i can try and put there, faster. | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: answered. | [11:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I didn't set up any, uhm. | [11:05] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 45\% in | [11:05] |
| asciilifeform: | still goin'. | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | so prolly it will take ~same anyway | [11:06] |
| asciilifeform: | this bugger is slow but not as slow as the bmore monkeys, last word from whom was 'i'ma get your order to the boss' who apparently took vacay | [11:06] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: while wait : when you do the kernel build, plox to examine whether it has the cp2101 (FG) thing , and the flags for iptables | [11:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: was my own text on the role of feelings clearer/easier for you than hanbot's? | [11:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-05 11:03:54 diana_coman: thimbronion: re your question on http://thewhet.net/2013/09/your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/comment-page-1/#comment-55392 – you are confusing the contexts there (or not really making a proper separation at all); read http://ossasepia.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ and see if that answers it for you; if it doesn't, ask me again. | [11:10] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I thought iptables was deemed utterly un-necessary? | [11:10] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: iirc you used it | [11:10] |
| asciilifeform: | i — left off | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | well, not after the discussion and conclusion, no? otherwise what use is to discuss and conclude, lol | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | so no, not using anymore either | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | aite. | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | if anything, it would help to check that an FG works well | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | iirc there was the need to downgrade via companion or some such shit | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | point being that kernels are sorta intimate affair, it's like putting on another person's eyeglasses, to use kernel conf unexamined. | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | (it's in my notes somewhere, will get to it when reproducing all stuff anyway) | [11:12] |
| asciilifeform: | CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_OPTION | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I don't think this is very sane though for non-personal machines; precisely because if every machine has to have different kernel conf than it's not all that reproducible | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | sure, on my personal machine, I fuck the kernel whatever way I want; not same for non-personal machines though. | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the issue is that erryone has slightly diff machine. esp if they aint all built by 1. | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | for instance if you have a raid, you gotta have the flags for ~that~ raid. | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | myeah | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | but I'm trying to keep those differences to a very minimum, ideally 0, ugh. | [11:14] |
| asciilifeform: | the offered kernel is made so as to guarantee bootability on commonplace amd irons. but it cannot be guaranteed to operate ~arbitrary~ irons w/out some tailoring. | [11:14] |
| asciilifeform: | this is consequence of 'tower of babel' of pc irons. | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | myeah, I know. | [11:15] |
| asciilifeform: | fwiw it stood up on a circa-2010 box last night w/out changes. | [11:16] |
| asciilifeform: | eta <20m | [11:17] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma go wash up , brb | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: are you there? | [11:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes it was. | [11:34] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/dulap-r2.tar.gz . checksum pasted earlier. | [11:38] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: when this item is confirmed to pass basic smoke test, i'ma fix the recipe & sign. | [11:39] |
| asciilifeform: | ( unless diana_coman would rather post own recipe ) | [11:39] |
| asciilifeform: | tarball will sign in any event. | [11:39] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know as soon as you get chance to try , cuz uploading these to my 1 remaining box takes ~45min. ea. time. | [11:45] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ok, downloading it | [11:47] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: why is that box so slow, I don't recall? | [11:47] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it's where my www. kolhoz . | [11:47] |
| diana_coman: | at any rate, if that's the problem, I'll set up an account for you on younghands or somewhere, lolz | [11:48] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: at the rate bmore is going, i might need another, so ty. | [11:48] |
| asciilifeform: | 'elderlyhands' | [11:48] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do you still plan to send a box to maxim/mivo? | [11:48] |
| diana_coman: | heh, quite | [11:49] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: indeed. already purchased the disk for that 1 | [11:49] |
| diana_coman: | kk | [11:49] |
| asciilifeform: | i expect it'll take time to go across atlantic. | [11:49] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma colo a 'apu1' with him. will see how goes. | [11:49] |
| diana_coman: | probably, yes; though not necessarily longer than bmore takes to give you a box locally from what I understand | [11:50] |
| asciilifeform: | entirely possib | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | about 500M downloaded | [11:50] |
| asciilifeform: | ha, much faster than when up | [11:50] |
| asciilifeform: | they must have an asym. pipe. | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | usually for kolhoz sort of thing they do as far as I saw | [11:51] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: iirc you can get that with him via email only ie without account on website, correct? | [11:51] |
| asciilifeform: | ftr i asked the bmore people about ddos. after ~that~ was told 'gotta ask boss' and made to wait. | [11:51] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i haven't opened any type of acct at maxim's just yet, still in conveyor. | [11:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: heh; I asked some some "eu" thing; first they replied with "oh no, it's nothing to worry, as long as you update/blabla"; after which, when I asked specifically and exactly what do they do if there's an attack on MY box…silence | [11:52] |
| diana_coman: | I don't even expect they'll come back to me, lolz | [11:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: try maybe you can get away without account; worth a try at least and as far as I can tell, if there's a chance of that, so far it's with them only. | [11:53] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ah, but see, the bmore people bill for packet mass. so 1st gotta get answer to 'what when ddos?' cuz on my surface reading, the answer may be 'potentially infinite bill' and then no go | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: heh, the eu had "potentially disconnect you", hence my q ~= wtf do you think I'm paying you for to disconnect me?? | [11:54] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, supposedly one way or another I'll get my blog back up and then do the write up of all that shit | [11:54] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: after latech i aint sure whether anyone can be believed, re 'when ddos'. | [11:54] |
| asciilifeform: | only way is recon by fire. | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: at the very least they *have to say it in writing* | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | that's the rub | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | and I fully intend to rub them in it | [11:55] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo is busy rubbin' atm, iirc. | [11:55] |
| asciilifeform: | i dun expect much to come from it. | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: tarball downloaded and checksum checked, all fine | [11:56] |
| asciilifeform: | ok, then ready for testfire. | [11:56] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: no, the point is *before* anything; because they won't quite want to say/admit "yes, you pay for us to disconnect you" but onth if they say "no, we don't", they are in a bigger pickle when they do so… | [11:56] |
| diana_coman: | hence why I expect they won't come back to me at all, no | [11:57] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: which firm was this ? | [11:57] |
| asciilifeform: | eu i mean | [11:57] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: some eunet iirc or if you really need it I'll look it up in the notes; a quite big corporation style thing but at that point I tried them too, why not | [11:58] |
| asciilifeform: | aok | [11:58] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: are you writing the new recipe now? | [11:59] |
| asciilifeform: | i am. the only diff tho is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Oct-2019#1005754 + the new tarball url atm. | [11:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-12 10:50:45 asciilifeform: steps 3-12, 3-18 should no longer be needed. | [11:59] |
| diana_coman: | ah, then I'll try to proceed with it | [11:59] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman | [11:59] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/dulap_construction_kit_r3.txt and will deedbot after verified to work | [12:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: kk, thanks; working on it | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: you should update that parted to start at 0 too | [12:06] |
| asciilifeform: | a yes | [12:06] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma hold off on rewrite of instrs. until you return 'it worx' | [12:07] |
| asciilifeform: | may need other fix. | [12:07] |
| diana_coman: | kk | [12:08] |
| asciilifeform: | parts cant start at 0 btw, that there's the mbr | [12:08] |
| asciilifeform: | lilo needs to live somewhere too | [12:09] |
| asciilifeform: | so usually people give it coupla sectors | [12:09] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, 34 | [12:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: is the review-trouble clarified now? | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: you forgot to update the name of the tarball in the new recipe at 3-16 | [12:12] |
| diana_coman: | 3-11, ugh | [12:12] |
| asciilifeform: | indeed. | [12:13] |
| asciilifeform: | will put these in as diana_coman emits'em | [12:13] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: btw i found that if using 'grub' you actually needs those 63 spare blox. | [12:14] |
| asciilifeform: | looked on a local box w/ 'grub', partitioned same. | [12:14] |
| asciilifeform: | 'tis a pittance tho, block==512b. | [12:14] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes but I am absolutely certain I will run into more questions when I try again tonight. Got to head out now. | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: now the tar complained about timestamp; do you know if that is more than just a warning? | [12:15] |
| diana_coman: | I never saw this before | [12:15] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: our clocks differ, i suspect | [12:16] |
| asciilifeform: | so yours thinks 'from future' | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: possibly; my q is whether it still unpacked everything or not | [12:16] |
| asciilifeform: | these get tar'd with 'p' flag, i.e. preserve-all incl. times | [12:16] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: oughta have | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | seems so as far as I can see; ok, moving on | [12:16] |
| asciilifeform: | looked, box where tar'd set to utc, so yes 'from future, martians' | [12:17] |
| asciilifeform: | it's oct 13 on it. | [12:17] |
| asciilifeform: | ( this problem, will fix self ) | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok but you know, ack still needed on positive outcome too; don't do this "no news is good news" | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | compiling kernel, changed it to armoire at least to make sure it's the one I'm aiming; will remember to change in lilo.conf too, lolz. | [12:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in the end may want to make yet another tarball, it is quite bare, and lacks such amenities as e.g. gnat. | [12:26] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: that I have & will deploy afterwards anyway | [12:27] |
| asciilifeform: | aite | [12:27] |
| asciilifeform: | speaking from the pov of hypothetical 'make 6 spare boxen' and similar. | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I suspect I'll have to make scripts really | [12:28] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: well trinque already made scripts. but iirc you had an item that still not 100\% certified to live in cuntoo. | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: is that rootfstype=ext4 parameter needed in the end? | [12:28] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: per the dox, seems to be. hence wai put in. | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | I had added up on previous install to get rid of idiotic attempt to mount it as ext3 (and it worked) but dunno if still needed it now | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | ah, ok | [12:28] |
| asciilifeform: | i dun use ext4 myself, so had to look up. | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes sadly, can't yet move on to cuntoo. | [12:29] |
| asciilifeform: | right, is what i recalled. | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | plus honestly, cuntoo is still work in progress in fact, not yet really there. | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | more like "work in waiting" but anyway | [12:29] |
| asciilifeform: | ( if could use, diana_coman would not have asked for this earlier barbarism, i inferred also ) | [12:29] |
| asciilifeform: | ftr 'dulap-gentoo' is, concretely, the last gentoo built by asciilifeform while traditional gentoo still was buildable ; incorporating the ban flags & cleanups discussed in '15-'17. | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: certainly I'd have used cuntoo if I could. | [12:31] |
| asciilifeform: | python3, ftr, was not entered into the ban list strictly because asciilifeform uses, sadly, 1 single program (ice40 toolchain) that runs in it. otherwise can be safely discarded afaik. | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: success! booted Armoire-II; / is mounted in rw mode, gcc is 4.9, python is 2.7 | [12:34] |
| asciilifeform: | a+++ diana_coman | [12:34] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: didja end up fiddling w/ kern. conf ? | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | thank you for the new tarball asciilifeform ! | [12:35] |
| asciilifeform: | np diana_coman | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | I looked about, changed the one for my usual kbd (the emergency ps kbd is not that comfy on fingers) and otherwise looked around but I didn't see something directly needed/to change | [12:35] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know when you have chance to mirror the tar, mine is veheheheryslow | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | would rather link folx to mirror. | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know if you want other changes in the doc, i'ma revise , sign , deed. | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | I'm sure it can be tuned probably but I'm not all that interested in that + atm I really need to get on with installing all the stuff and bringing the eulora servers up at least here | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: re kernel — may have to turn knob to get FG. | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | depending on what cables you have. | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: hm, in this one it's on usb; do you know where is that knob in kernell? | [12:37] |
| asciilifeform: | looks | [12:37] |
| asciilifeform: | i had to CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_PL2303 for mine | [12:38] |
| asciilifeform: | if you have the cp210x one ought work as given in tarball tho. | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | I recall that is the knob (or at least one of the needed ones), yes | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | no, should be pl2303, ugh | [12:38] |
| asciilifeform: | most people got the cp210x | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | hm, need to look in notes and check | [12:39] |
| asciilifeform: | what colour is your plug ? | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I have both black and blue (usb 3) | [12:40] |
| asciilifeform: | then you need the knob | [12:40] |
| asciilifeform: | blue's a pl230x | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | hm, and black isn't ? | [12:41] |
| asciilifeform: | black was the chinesium, it actually came in the 2 variants unlabeled, annoyingly | [12:41] |
| asciilifeform: | initially i raged about it, then thought 'good to have mix, will see if there's oddities/noncomplicances in standard' | [12:42] |
| asciilifeform: | my criteria for these was 'anyone but ftdi' | [12:43] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: looking again at my notes, turns out that no, all batch2 fg people have the pl. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: this is what I recalled, that it was ~always pl | [12:44] |
| asciilifeform: | so yes, knob. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | so I think at least mention the location of that knob, in the recipe perhaps | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | aha, you should have 2 pl. (regardless of colour) | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: will put in. | [12:45] |
| diana_coman: | goes back to recompile | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: dun fughet this if you're plugging in 3 or moar. | [12:47] |
| ericbot: | (trilema) 2018-08-01 asciilifeform: dwc_otg.speed=1 on kernel param line. | [12:47] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: good point; add to recipe too, please | [12:50] |
| asciilifeform: | will. | [12:50] |
| asciilifeform: | the bit re kbd is interesting — none of the boxes where i had this going, ever had a classic ps/2 kbd. | [12:53] |
| asciilifeform: | tried even last night several usb kbd, all worked. | [12:53] |
| asciilifeform: | brb, eating (very late breakfast lol) | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: either I'm blind atm or it's one of those that depends on something else and so on ffs; I went to Device Drivers -> USB support but I can't find it anywhere, grr | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | ah, found it; it's in device drivers/usb support/usb serial converter support/usb prolific shit | [13:11] |
| diana_coman: | gah | [13:11] |
| diana_coman: | I will need to go for a few hours so I'll let it compile and then get back to it when I'm back | [13:12] |
| asciilifeform: | back | [13:17] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: confirmed compiled, booted and FG seen; now I'm going away for 2-3 hours, will move on to rest of installs after that | [13:30] |
| asciilifeform: | a++ | [13:30] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know if again puzzler, i'ma also walk for some hrs. | [13:30] |
| asciilifeform: | will check log later today. | [13:31] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: noted re: good news. | [15:18] |
| shinohai: | I'm trying to write ebuild for Eulora client, but will alo require separate ones for cal3d/crystalspace it appears. | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: yes, cal3d and crystalspace are the ones to start with because they will stay the same, most likely. | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | cal3d should be the easiest to start with really | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | for one thing getting it to build with gprbuild is quite straightforward and for the other, it's way less messy than cs | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: so I'd say start with that and let me know how it goes | [16:32] |
| shinohai: | Are they simply a specific version, could i mask them if already in portage? | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: they are a specific version; I doubt they are in portage but look and let me know, why not | [16:33] |
| shinohai: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Oct-2019#1005952 <<< ebuild has hard requirement for gcc 4.9.4 / Ada | [16:33] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-12 16:32:21 diana_coman: for one thing getting it to build with gprbuild is quite straightforward and for the other, it's way less messy than cs | [16:33] |
| diana_coman: | you'll need the exact versions used/mirrored by s.mg though, at least for the client as far as it'll be released (other than that you can always do your own /make it work with any version, ofc) | [16:33] |
| shinohai: | Thats why I think I should just use the ones I have mirrored on my site, because exact match for ones from minigame | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: what do you mean? they certainly compile with gcc 4.9.4 ofc; and fwiw I compiled cal3d with gnat/gprbuild, it worked fine | [16:34] |
| shinohai: | (So ebuild is better method of doing this, I believe) | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | cs is messier because it has a ton of if-defism among other warts | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: so yes, sure; use those; not sure in the end what are you trying to do exactly? (I thought you were trying to *make* ebuilds for those versions, yes) | [16:35] |
| shinohai: | Yes, that's what I intend to do (write ebuild for all 3 components), just assuring I couldn't be lazy and just do package.mask xD | [16:36] |
| diana_coman: | note that cs also has quite a few dependencies so you'll probably be better off doing first cal3d and then starting from those cs deps and only at the end the cs itself | [16:36] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: first of all: are they even in portage? because I seriously doubt but just check anyway, it's not a difficult thing to do | [16:37] |
| shinohai: | yeah I checked, both available | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | if nothing else, an existing ebuild might help you as an example perhaps | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | ah; what versions compared to minigame ones? | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | cal3d is quite frozen so maybe lucky there | [16:38] |
| shinohai: | emerge search shows: | [16:38] |
| shinohai: | media-libs/cal3d | [16:38] |
| shinohai: | Latest version available: 0.11.0-r1 | [16:38] |
| shinohai: | Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | the 0.11 sounds right, dunno about r1 | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | so that might be handy if it works, worth a try at least | [16:39] |
| shinohai: | Will report in when I have results o7 | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | as I said: cal3d has been quite frozen for ages, so perhaps the easy way works for it | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | shinohai: ok, good luck | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: mysql seems to try to pull in openssl (some of its deps) despite me specifying even same version of mysql I had hammered to work on the test server, ugh; this will be some fun, by the looks of it | [17:25] |
| asciilifeform: | waves to diana_coman | [17:56] |
| asciilifeform: | so, lessee : | [17:57] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: do you remember how this gentoo was made ? in /etc/portage/package.mask/crapolade : there are banned pgkgs ; | [17:57] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in /etc/portage/make.conf there are 'minused' gentooflags . | [17:58] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ssl was not in the scope of either, if you had a custom ban, it was 100\% your own work | [17:58] |
| asciilifeform: | tho if you dun recall how you did it, dollars to doughnuts it was by putting a >=openssl-bannedverwhatever in 'crapolade' . | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I banned it specifically because otherwise it gets pulled in and conflicts with libressl | [17:59] |
| asciilifeform: | right, so this was in your working piece but not in mine | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: actually that is what I should do | [17:59] |
| asciilifeform: | it's ~99\% of the win from using gentoos, the fact that you can do this | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | ie so far I specifically masked it for dev-db/mysql but I should add it to crapolade | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | so it *did* help I complained here ! | [18:00] |
| asciilifeform: | crapolade perma-bans | [18:00] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: dun hesitate to complain even if re general operation of dulapgentoo and not concretely the given tar | [18:00] |
| asciilifeform: | i might know the answ. | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | thanks! | [18:00] |
| asciilifeform: | np. | [18:01] |
| asciilifeform: | there are other packages you might haveto ban depending on what's being built. i cannot claim to have mapped out the entire known universe of liquishit. | [18:01] |
| asciilifeform: | my orig ban concerned concretely poettering et al and their 'contributions'. | [18:02] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: sure; I *do* have my notes, but apparently at that time it was enough to ban it for mysql specifically ; possibly because other versions of the deps already installed or something (ie it's pulled in by a dep of mysql and it has MANY, ugh) | [18:02] |
| asciilifeform: | fortunately i also — have notes. but i used quite diff set of proggies , from smg's. | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | aha | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | I'll get to it, lots of stuff to compile and check still, ugh. | [18:03] |
| asciilifeform: | re mysql, iirc BingoBoingo set up, worked, on rk. | [18:03] |
| asciilifeform: | (rk is ~= this gentoo, but for arm64) | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: well, I set *this versione exactly* on the test server so it has to work in the end. | [18:04] |
| asciilifeform: | for that, put that ver in package.use | [18:04] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Yes, just for a bloggatron on RockChip the secret MySQL sauce is some config (rather than compile) changes that keep it from eating all the ram. | [18:04] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this forces concrete package. | [18:04] |
| diana_coman: | I've just masked anything with higher version really | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | the opposite of package.mask. | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | that also worx. | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | ( when you mask, it uses the latest permissible ver. ) | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: plz see if you can excavate the magick flag for mysql | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | tired and will go horizontal but will check here again before proper bed; bbl | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ah, shit; openssl is *installed* actually? | [18:13] |
| BingoBoingo: | default-storage-engine = MyISAM is the MYSQL config flag to productively constrain MYSQL ram use on limited ram | [18:13] |
| BingoBoingo: | https://archive.is/7Vfxd << Lobbes guide to mysql on rockchip | [18:13] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: installed, nginx pulled in | [18:13] |
| asciilifeform: | and curl | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, curl is not installed and precisely, I was setting up to install curl *without openssl" | [18:14] |
| asciilifeform: | genuinely bbl | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | but uhm, I thought the idea was no openssl really | [18:14] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: gentoo pulls tarballs from portage repos, and afaik cannot be installed w/out ~some~ sslism | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | i have not experimented with alt-ssl's at the time of the writing of dulap-g. | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | hm; so only cuntoo is ssl-free? | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | afaik | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | hm | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in principle possible to ban the pkg and then remake world. but i have not attempted. | [18:16] |
| asciilifeform: | none of my proggies used sslism for anyffin. (i did not have trb on this dulap, and trb carries own ssl tarball) | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | given that I should have the servers up by tomorrow evening, I'd rather not rebuild world, hm | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | so I suppose I'll have to live with ssl for now at least. | [18:17] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i expect you'll have >1 of these inexpensive boxen, from this can win ability to make constricted sets w/ rebuilt worlds etc. when time permits. | [18:18] |
| asciilifeform: | genuinely must bbl ; diana_coman et al plox to put in any q's re this item, in log, will answr. when i get back. | [18:19] |
| diana_coman: | gn asciilifeform | [18:22] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw going through the old notes re install on 1st smg server @pizarro (aka the production server), it turns out that indeed, I had to eselect python 2 so as to have python 2.7 as default. | [19:14] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: how much time should I be spending on this review? | [19:44] |
| thimbronion: | I'm at about 3 hours, but I'm not happy with it, and I'm running out of time. | [19:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that's the sort of question that you can answer best; what's wrong with it/why "not happy"? | [19:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the more important question is whether you see/know what you need to do to make it better; do you? | [19:59] |
| diana_coman: | things are not to be measured by "time spent", at any rate. | [20:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: better measure the time by return gained on spending it, really, if you are asking "should I spend more on it now?" ; in other words: if you see how to make it better so that another hour would make a significant improvement, then you should find that hour, yes; if onth you don't see how to make it better but you only see that it is broken, then you gain more by publishing it for | [20:26] |
| diana_coman: | feedback (regardless of what "embarassment" might say otherwise) | [20:26] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: production eulora server is all running on local testbed! | [20:32] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: grats re eulora! i published my interests post. also added pics to the Kyoto post and made a post for Seoul. | [21:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't see what to do to make it better. | [21:15] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am going to publish with notes on where I see problems. | [21:24] |
#ossasepia Logs for 11 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: how about that server? | [05:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Oct-2019#1005261 – I'll take a rockchip there if you do it; when would this be available? | [06:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 16:19:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i am considering to house 4u of irons incl. new rk plant experimentally in bmor at own risk & expense. will see whether anyone wants in, otherwise will e.g. trb. | [06:15] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: fwiw re dulap construction kit so far I think there are only a few missing bits at the mount cmds point 3-16C since the stuff is not in /mnt/usb directly but rather something like /mnt/usb/mnt/gentoo/dev etc | [10:03] |
| whaack: | good afternoon diana_coman. a q re your comment to thimbronion about v yesterday. i pressed with a 2015 version that i understand is pre-keccak. from my understanding the pressing function of V does not need to know about the hash function used in the vpatches. | [10:30] |
| whaack: | my question is am i mistaken, and did my version of V not validate thoroughly when it pressed? | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: o.O what do you think the role of the hashes is there? | [10:38] |
| whaack: | well i think that i may have discovered a big gap in my understanding of V. one sec while i articulate my point of confusion | [10:40] |
| whaack: | so there are two places where hashes are being used. The first is in the sigs of the vpatches. Each vpatch is a signed file, so to obtain that signature gpg first hashes the .vpatch file and then performs RSA on the resulting hash. | [10:45] |
| whaack: | the second is that each vpatch has a list of diffs of files. The diffs reference the previous files by their hash and also show the new hash that will be obtained after performing the diff. | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so far so good: there are indeed 2 hashes used in 2 places for 2 different purposes. | [10:49] |
| whaack: | now to answer my own question, when V is pressing, at the start of applying a new patch it should ensure that each file it already has pressed hashes to the hash reference in the new vpatch, which would require V to know about keccak | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: indeed. | [10:51] |
| whaack: | however, this step ~could~ be skipped, since if you trusted each previous vpatch up to and including the genesis, you would not need to actually check that the resulting hashes were correct. and i think this step is skipped in mod6's older version in 2015 | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: to make it clear: the sig aka gpg use sha512 ; the vdiff uses keccak currently. | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I doubt it really; and it's a matter of *what* to patch ie the hashes in the vpatch file are meant to *identify* the file | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | so how does it know it patches the right thing if it doesn't check the hash? | [10:53] |
| whaack: | because the files are also referenced by their path | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: at any rate: 1. you should be able to tell if your V uses keccak or sha512 2. you can even make a quick test ie pressing some old vpatches (iirc the trb ones are NOT keccak, still) | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: while you could ofc skip any and all steps, that sounds like a sort of "well, can as well not clean the boots *every day*", how should I put this | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I am not aware of any V version that just ignores the hashes but I can't say I know *all* versions there are; plus I can't tell from here what code you are running there. | [10:56] |
| whaack: | it is here if you would like to see. it identifies the file by looking at the hash output of the previous patch and the hash input of the current patch, but i dont think it hashes the files at any point itself. http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=-e3B | [10:59] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-11#1005314 << i asked'em this morning to open my acct, and iirc they said 'week for arin' so looking slow so far. | [11:02] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 09:15:11 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Oct-2019#1005261 – I'll take a rockchip there if you do it; when would this be available? | [11:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 16:19:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i am considering to house 4u of irons incl. new rk plant experimentally in bmor at own risk & expense. will see whether anyone wants in, otherwise will e.g. trb. | [11:02] |
| spyked: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Oct-2019#1005331 <– let's say you apply patches p1, p2 which (both) modify file /f1; now, let's say you only apply p1. how do you know file /f1@{p1} is different from /f1@{p1,p2}? | [11:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 10:54:07 whaack: because the files are also referenced by their path | [11:03] |
| asciilifeform: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Oct-2019#1005317 << if you have a corrected version ( did you succeed in installing ? ) i will sign. (otherwise also happy to make the req'd corrections with own hand, from log, and ditto) | [11:04] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 10:03:17 diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw re dulap construction kit so far I think there are only a few missing bits at the mount cmds point 3-16C since the stuff is not in /mnt/usb directly but rather something like /mnt/usb/mnt/gentoo/dev etc | [11:04] |
| spyked: | whaack, also, hashes impose an ordering on patches via the toposort algo described in ben_vulpes' intro to v | [11:06] |
| whaack: | spyked << you're right i am mistaken there. the files need to be referenced by their hashes and not just there paths. the reason the V i'm using works is because the patches also list the output hash so V can use that and just trust that they are correct hashes without checking | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | oh boy, a trusting V | [11:09] |
| spyked: | whaack, problem is that classical diff/patch leave room for ambiguity, i.e. in principle it's possible to (cleanly) apply a single hashless patch to different files, which results in different presses. so hashes are needed in order to identify the file (not only path/name, which is only metadata required for retrieval) as it is before/after applying the patch. | [11:15] |
| spyked: | perhaps I should add "uniquely" before "identify the file" | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | myeah and exactly eliminating such ambiguity is one of the aims of V, really. | [11:17] |
| spyked: | minimal example illustrating this ambiguity: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Auce example1.patch was obtain by diffing a and b, but I can apply it on c, which is different from a. if this were possible in v, then this could conceivably lead to malformed presses | [11:26] |
| spyked: | grrr, *was obtained | [11:29] |
| whaack: | got it, i understand that the hashes are needed to identify the files. but regarding hashing the files yourself after every patch, the vpatches already let you know what the output hash will be. so if you trust the vpatch to the point where you're going to run the code outputted by it, then you should trust its claim of what the output of the hash would be. hashing the output files yourself after every patch then becomes more of a | [11:29] |
| whaack: | data-integrity check. | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | the vpatches let you know what the output hash *should be* | [11:31] |
| diana_coman: | nobody can let you know upfront what it *will be*; in general | [11:31] |
| whaack: | is digesting spyked's example | [11:35] |
| spyked: | whaack, imho after trying out yourself, it's worth replicating the example using vdiff/vpatch instead of classical diff/patch — and observing the results. | [11:36] |
| whaack: | k i understand your example | [11:56] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: thimbron.com is partially working – admin interface works, but posts 404 and the homepage redirects to http://thimbron.com/wp-admin/install.php. wp-config.php matches except for new database name, user and password. Seen this problem before? | [12:32] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: error logs for a request for http://thimbron.com/ fwiw: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=AAPr | [12:41] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the error logs sound like some php version trouble | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the links trouble might be a matter of the permalinks and/or permissions not set properly | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what OS are you running there? | [12:44] |
| thimbronion: | centos | [12:44] |
| thimbronion: | php version 5.4.16 | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | ah, darn, I have my notes for that but not at hand right now | [12:48] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: homepage works for me. | [12:49] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: ah same here from a browser where I'm not logged in. permalinks still broken though. | [12:51] |
| BingoBoingo: | thimbronion: Your best bet is probably going to involve building php 5.6 as its where the V tree has taken mp-wp. I strongly suspect we are going to end up standardizing on php 5.6 because php failed to do backwards or forwards compatibility | [12:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: does it work if you set the format to that default ?page bla? | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | because if it does, then you either don't have rewrite allowed and/or correct .htaccess | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | or otherwise your file/folder permissions are not fully set correctly, iirc centos had another requirement after chmod | [12:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: my .htaccess file in the app root: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=MHj0 | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that looks ok; do you have Apahche set to allow the rewrite though? | [12:57] |
| diana_coman: | it has some conf files too, don't quite recall all+order off the top of my head | [12:57] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: that I don't know. I haven't touche httpd.conf except maybe to default to look for index.php instea of index.html | [12:57] |
| whaack: | looks like http://thimbron.com/?p=10 redirects to the permalink | [12:58] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: not sure what you mean by this: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Oct-2019#1005369 | [13:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 12:53:09 diana_coman: thimbronion: does it work if you set the format to that default ?page bla? | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: in the blog's dashboard you have at settings the option as to what the links for posts should look like | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | the default setting is to make them look like thimbron.com/?page=smth ; the permalinks are used if you want anything else, namely some more informative url such as date/name | [13:02] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: update re these — they're as slow as snails. still waiting for a 'ok, put moneys here' from'em | [13:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 11:02:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-11#1005314 << i asked'em this morning to open my acct, and iirc they said 'week for arin' so looking slow so far. | [13:02] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-11 09:15:11 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Oct-2019#1005261 – I'll take a rockchip there if you do it; when would this be available? | [13:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 16:19:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i am considering to house 4u of irons incl. new rk plant experimentally in bmor at own risk & expense. will see whether anyone wants in, otherwise will e.g. trb. | [13:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok switche to the default and now all title links work. | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I see; fwiw atm I'm trying to go again through those dulap-instructions to put on an amd fx-8350, writing down everything | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | earlier I had done it on a diff machine but there were all sorts of grief | [13:03] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma be at the console for prolly longer than you have left awake today, dun hesitate to ask re the griefs | [13:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: myeah, so it is what I think it is but I can't recall for the life of me the magic incantation and I have just taken out the hdd with all sorts including the notes on this, argh | [13:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: unless you are done with all the rest of stuff you can do atm, I'd say leave it for now with that default option and get back to it later. | [13:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. At least I can read my posts so I can do the review. | [13:07] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: if I just run make install as per step 3-17D it fails because it can't find the image it expects (kernel-genkernel-…) ; in /boot if I look there is instead a vmlinuz-4.14.7-gentooDulap-III and no initramfs either though lilo.conf seems to expect one | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | as a side note: it also complains about linear instead of lba32 | [13:40] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: does it copy kernel at all into /boot part ? | [13:41] |
| asciilifeform: | this is the shoddiest part of the recipe, it almost certainly needs correction | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: it seems to copy ie the vmlinuz but no initramfs; and if I changed lilo.conf to point to existing name of kernel that part went through but got stuck because no initramfs | [13:41] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: possibly needs a make; make modules_install; make install | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ftr I had to correct/adapt the parted too because it complained it was not aligned and then it failed really. | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | ok, let me try that | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | but at any rate, I am therefore recompiling it, no? | [13:43] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: only if changed config | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | well, I didn't change it, but apparently the make anyway proceeded to recompile | [13:44] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it's been 1.5y since i myself carried out this incantation, and by all rights oughta have walked the recipe myself prior to publishing, but diana_coman did ask 'plz asap' so posted . | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: realise that 1. I am simply stating the grief, as you asked 2. I am pointing re recompile because earlier in #t you went "no" when I said http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-11#1944905 | [13:45] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-11 diana_coman: asciilifeform: eh, recompile kernel to fit that, at the very least, no? | [13:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i've a disk ready , and will go through it myself again, on a 'apu1', but unfortunately not until later tonight. | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, it will recompile, let's see | [13:46] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it was snapshotted iirc with .o's litter still in the kernel build dir, so i do not know why insists to recompile. will have to examine w/ magnifying glass. | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: the part I don't get mainly is why no initramfs in /build | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | ugh, in /boot | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ok i looked in notes, and have answer : i used 'genkernel –menuconfig all' to build, it builds initramfs (which otherrwise has to be built manually) | [13:48] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: so wait, do I need to do that or what/ | [13:49] |
| diana_coman: | ? | [13:49] |
| asciilifeform: | in /usr/src/linux , 'genkernel –menuconfig all' (after ensuring that /boot is mounted ) ; also examine the config that it displays to see that it matches your iron, at same time | [13:50] |
| asciilifeform: | this is how the orig. was built. and asciilifeform mistaken , turns out, that 'make install' would have same effect. the recipe will have to be rewritten. | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | ugh; now since I started the make… | [13:50] |
| asciilifeform: | can abort w/out ill effect | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | ok, let me see then | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | I will not modify the config though because the whole idea was to test that indeed "can just work on any amd" | [13:51] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: after genkernel is through, it is expected to display the path where wrote the kernel and initramfs. | [13:51] |
| diana_coman: | at least without adapting the config | [13:51] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: you did not mention any unusual irons (e.g. raid) so yes, is expected to work. | [13:51] |
| diana_coman: | it's not raid, no; nothing special really. | [13:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i trimmed that config, but not very aggressively, will be very surprised if not worx on plain 'fx' w/ the built-in sata. | [13:52] |
| diana_coman: | well, atm I'm not using a ps keyboard so prolly *that* will fail in the end but it's not a huge thing, I can rummage for a ps keyboard afterwards | [13:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: dulap had no ps kbd | [13:52] |
| diana_coman: | so then why all the ps stuff in the config as far as I see? anyway, not a big thing either way | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | this is why said 'not agressively', there is support enabled for certain irons that aint in any of the boxes | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | ah, kk. | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: when you enable absent iron in config, it does no harm but to bloat the kernel. | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | I know | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | hence e.g. 'ps kbd' is not problem. | [13:54] |
| asciilifeform: | support for usb kbd, amd's sata, etc. is enabled in the published config. | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: fwiw it is indeed compiling now the correctly-named bzImage | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | rather less informative re activity than the earlier make but whatevs | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | this then matches asciilifeform's paper notes. | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: verify after that the kernel and initramfs actually get copied to /boot . | [13:55] |
| diana_coman: | myeah; and now I'll have to change the lilo.conf back too, lolz. | [13:56] |
| asciilifeform: | and after this as root run 'lilo' . aha | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | anyways the compile seems like it will take a bit so I'll get back when it's done. | [13:56] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: you dun have to use 'lilo' , can if you prefer 'grub', simply i use lilo. | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | neah, I'm fine with lilo | [13:56] |
| asciilifeform: | aite. | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: and it failed with: binary /sbin/mount.zfs could not be found | [13:58] |
| asciilifeform: | zfs ?!! | [13:58] |
| diana_coman: | this is what the thing says, what can I do. | [13:59] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i must now ask, what didja boot for this procedure ? | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: hm? | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | I booted from a usb stick, gentoo live cd | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | what is running on the machine where the chroot was carried out ? | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | ah | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | iirc there was a way to ask no zfs | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | ugh, wtf was it | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can you paste the last 500ln leading up to the barf plz ? | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | lemme see on that iron, 1 min | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | ah, first might need to plug in the network, lolz | [14:01] |
| asciilifeform: | ZFS="no" in the config ; but also must make sure genkernel is actually using the provided config, and not somehow default (if you e.g. 'make clean'-d, may be using default) | [14:02] |
| diana_coman: | it's using config with right name at least ie Dulap-III | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | 1 min, I'll get a paste out of it | [14:03] |
| asciilifeform: | ty | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=O9GU | [14:05] |
| asciilifeform: | looks | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | there is a –no-zfs | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | lemme try with that, again | [14:05] |
| asciilifeform: | genkernel –no-zfs –menuconfig all | [14:06] |
| asciilifeform: | aha | [14:06] |
| asciilifeform: | (for some reason wasn't necessary on bv's provided gentoo stick, with which this process to date carried out) | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | dunno, I've made this bootable stick a while ago when I was trying out Cuntoo really | [14:07] |
| asciilifeform: | cuntoo carries 100\% own bin tooling tho. which is why it — civilized, and this — barbaric, yes | [14:07] |
| diana_coman: | if I'm at that I added –no-btrfs too, just-in-case. | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | I don't see further –no to add, but we'll see | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | well, at least it compiled now; it has a warning that additional kernel cmdline arguments may be required ie rootfstype=ext3 | [14:11] |
| diana_coman: | and now there is an initramfs in /boot too, let's see | [14:12] |
| asciilifeform: | verify that in /boot actually lie the kernel and initramfs, of the expected names, aha | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | they seem to be there; lemme document + move on | [14:13] |
| asciilifeform: | ty | [14:13] |
| diana_coman: | lilo worked although it still whined about linear | [14:14] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i now wish i had thought to formalize and scriptize this item, but will admit that i wrote it off as dead when cuntoo was published. | [14:14] |
| asciilifeform: | never expected anyone would ask for it again. | [14:14] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: tbh I wanted to ask "why not script" but anyway. | [14:15] |
| asciilifeform: | oughta be a script. but thought 'ah, but nao cuntoo' | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: uhm, just a bit ago you lashed out that "people not replicating asciilifeform's magic irons" | [14:15] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this os was proclaimed obsolete / abandoned. so no, did not expect it would have to be replicated again. | [14:16] |
| asciilifeform: | if i were asked to make erry single thing i ever wrote and put in garbage can properly documented, would need to live for 400 years. | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ugh, boot failed with filesystem mounted at /dev/sda2 does not appear to be valid / | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | hm, fstab comes to mind | [14:17] |
| asciilifeform: | grrr i didn't mention fstab did i !!! | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | mk, back to it | [14:17] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: you already have better picture in your head of this mechanism than is illustrated in the ' asciilifeform writes cookbook in 15min from memory ' ha. | [14:18] |
| asciilifeform: | of course fstab. | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | but hm, my usb kbd is indeed not working, lol | [14:20] |
| asciilifeform: | is only thing not working ? | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | wait, I need the kbd first to edit fstab, lol | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | ps kbd to the rescue | [14:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: also : when rebooted, was only the new disk present, or both usb booter and the new disk ? | [14:22] |
| asciilifeform: | the one you boot from, generally will appear as 'sda' | [14:22] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I took out the usb stick | [14:24] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: do you get a command prompt from kernel ? ( when it refuses to mount / on /dev/sda2 ) ? | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | ugh; asciilifeform mind pasting an example of how fstab should look like for the partitions you gave? apparently I didn't get it right or there's more to it | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | I can get a shell | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | ah shit | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | that's not enough, is it | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | ugh | [14:26] |
| asciilifeform: | oh fffs | [14:27] |
| asciilifeform: | in the given fstab, there is a disagreement w/the cookbook, diana_coman : | [14:27] |
| asciilifeform: | change the 'reiserfs' to ext4 plz. | [14:28] |
| asciilifeform: | otherwise /dev/sda1 still is /boot, and /dev/sda2 — root. | [14:28] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: link? | [14:29] |
| asciilifeform: | grr want to paste but paste.deedbot.org not loading here for some reason grrr | [14:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 'the given fstab' being referred to is the one in dulap.tar.gz. | [14:30] |
| asciilifeform: | that you presently have in that disk. | [14:30] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re paste.deedbot.org it's just that style sheet | [14:30] |
| diana_coman: | cut it out and it will load | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: how do i cut it out ? | [14:31] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, even a stop on the browser should do it; depends what you are using exactly | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | ok finally timed out. | [14:31] |
| diana_coman: | atm fighting it a bit to boot from stick rather than disk, lol | [14:31] |
| diana_coman: | or that , lol | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | so : the given ; | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | the desired . | [14:32] |
| asciilifeform: | brb in 10-15m | [14:33] |
| diana_coman: | so I had it right, except the shell I got did not manage to write the actual file, ugh; so I need to boot now from the stick. | [14:33] |
| diana_coman: | I'll take a break too. | [14:33] |
| asciilifeform: | back | [14:42] |
| asciilifeform: | answering, grr, phones, may be slower than realtime for next half hr | [14:58] |
| diana_coman: | gah, now it won't boot from the stick anymore and the shell from the failed thing doesn't mount /dev/sdb2 to change the fstab, ofc | [15:14] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: any idea? | [15:14] |
| asciilifeform: | banished the phones, available nao for 3+h of gentoocement drill | [15:15] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: waitasec , not boots from stick ?! | [15:15] |
| asciilifeform: | you didn't write to the stick, no ? | [15:16] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: no; but hm, I should check the disk, makes sense | [15:16] |
| diana_coman: | it would be rather weird but anyway; kk, let's check it… | [15:16] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, wtf, the stick is shot *right now*; wtf; mk, I'll go and write another one + set this to be looked at. | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: before you reimage it : | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you can mount it on a working linux box, find whether somehow the new kernel , image, etc. ended up written to the usb. | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | rather than the new disk. | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | neah, it didn't; at most I might have fatfingered it at some point and shot it; but no, I won't reimage *this one* now, just another one; this will wait to be looked at. | [15:24] |
| asciilifeform: | ok | [15:24] |
| asciilifeform: | 1nce you have the test bed again booted w/ new stick, can 1) modify fstab 2) verify that kernel was written to 1st part. | [15:25] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: the kernel was written fine, I could even check now | [15:28] |
| asciilifeform: | oh ffs i reread the gentoo docs, and found why diana_coman's usb stick nuked. in the lilo.conf, before run 'lilo' as root to install the lilo loader on mbr, must actually set boot=…. to ~where new disk is atm~ and ~then~ modify after successfully booted w/ new disk alone. | [15:28] |
| diana_coman: | the shell I got mounted in read-only the / | [15:28] |
| diana_coman: | sigh | [15:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: right but lilo writes directly to block 0 on the specified device | [15:29] |
| asciilifeform: | bypassing mount | [15:29] |
| diana_coman: | imaging now another stick anyway | [15:29] |
| diana_coman: | the image is 2.2G so apparently dd takes a while | [15:34] |
| asciilifeform: | not going anywhere, awaits output | [15:35] |
| diana_coman: | ok, new stick is ready, booted on it; mounted /dev/sda2 and changed that reiserfs to ext4 | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do I need to do anything else before rebooting? | [15:43] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i strongly suspect that you do not have a working lilo bootloader on the new disk, that it got written to the (previous) usb | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | ugh | [15:43] |
| asciilifeform: | if new-disk-alone dun boot, this will be the culprit. | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: so what do you suggest now? | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | perform the chroot steps so as to operate on the new disk. change sda to sdb (where new disk is presently hanging) in lilo.conf, and run 'lilo' as root. | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | then ought to be able to boot from the new disk alone. | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | hm; let me try first and see if it boots, can't hurt anyway | [15:45] |
| asciilifeform: | ok | [15:45] |
| asciilifeform: | will be surprised if does | [15:45] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: myeah, it does not; sigh. | [15:46] |
| asciilifeform: | lilo. | [15:47] |
| asciilifeform: | ( as described in this doc, in section 'lilo', except that you are setting up on an actual hdd as your 'second disk' rather than vice-versa, but same process ) | [15:48] |
| asciilifeform: | lilo will warn that 'you are not writing to first disk', this is to be expected. | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | ok; booted now again from usb stick, let me see | [15:51] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: tip: lilo can be run as 'lilo -C /etc/lilo-xyz.conf' if you want to make a copy of the conf for installation | [15:52] |
| asciilifeform: | (as it differs from the operational conf) | [15:53] |
| asciilifeform: | you will need to change both 'boot=…' and 'disk=…' . | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: what I don't get though: current lilo.conf has boot = /dev/sda which is in fact correct; the usb stick is /dev/sdb | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | disk is same | [15:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: you booted nao and stick is sdb ?! | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I booted from usb stick; usb stick is still sdb, yes | [15:55] |
| asciilifeform: | but last time around was not ?! | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | it was; hence why I don't quite get this part | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | ah but i get : | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: what does 'mount' command return ? | [15:56] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: hm? | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 1s. how is the disk attached to the machine ? | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | ( via snake ? i.e. plugged in after boot via stick ? or to sata ? ) | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: the usb stick is in usb port; the hard drive is main drive, sata | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | there is no other drive (/me wanted to keep it simple) | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | may be the case that the bios is doing something odd w/ driver ordering on this iron. | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | if the ~new~ disk is in fact sda : then can execute 'lilo' with the given config. | [15:58] |
| asciilifeform: | and is to install on the new disk. | [15:58] |
| asciilifeform: | as described in the dox. | [15:58] |
| diana_coman: | well, I suppose I can execute lilo and see if it nukes this second drive too, lol | [15:58] |
| asciilifeform: | ensure that the config is unmodified and then yes. | [15:58] |
| diana_coman: | uhm; now it says fatal: default image doesn't exist; I think I might be getting too tired for this | [16:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: before you stop, can you paste the barfola ? | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma repeat the entire process here, while you sleep . | [16:02] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: it's literally just that; it says Added GentooDulap and then Default image doesn't exist | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: did you chroot 1st ? | [16:03] |
| diana_coman: | yes | [16:03] |
| diana_coman: | hm, I don't see a default line in lilo.conf, should there be one? | [16:03] |
| asciilifeform: | yes ! | [16:03] |
| asciilifeform: | lemme paste the original | [16:03] |
| asciilifeform: | http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=kSMh . | [16:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ is what's in the tarball. | [16:04] |
| asciilifeform: | if your boot aint mounted, then it won't find the kernel img, boot must be mounted. | [16:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ah, no; /me tired indeed; I've changed the label because I wanted to be able to see that it uses this indeed but I forgot to change the default too, derp. | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | ok, now it worked | [16:05] |
| asciilifeform: | ok! let's fire it | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | lilo ran fine; there is still the warning re LINEAR vs LBA32 | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | not seen this warn before | [16:07] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: verify that the given image and initrd correspond to what lies inside /boot , and test-fire then. | [16:08] |
| diana_coman: | "linear is deprecated in favor of LBA32: LINEAR specifies 24-bit disk addresses below the 1024 cylinder limit; LBA32 specifies 32-bit disk addresses not subject to cylinder limits on systems with EDD-BIOS extensions; " | [16:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i suspect lba is disabled in your bios | [16:09] |
| asciilifeform: | should not make a diff tho here. | [16:09] |
| diana_coman: | rebooted: the image label is correct ie lilo seems fine; but still same problem re /dev/sda2 does not appear to be a valid / | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | ugh | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you have the energy, plox to enable lba2 and try liloizing again | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | *lba32 | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i assume you remembered to fix fstab ? | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: fixed fstab, yes; at least the usb stick is still working so running lilo was not the problem there | [16:11] |
| diana_coman: | let me see re lba2 | [16:11] |
| asciilifeform: | also i assume you rebooted w/ the usb stick removed, rather than simply used bios bootloader menu to select hdd ? | [16:12] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: stick removed, yes | [16:12] |
| asciilifeform: | ok | [16:12] |
| asciilifeform: | btw given that you got this far, you have a kernel that boots, so lilo per se is prolly not the issue | [16:13] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: how big is the new disk ? if it's >200GB, then iirc in fact demands lba32 to work | [16:14] |
| asciilifeform: | (to mount / , that is , which is to say to see whole disk) | [16:14] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ah, so that might be it; it's 1TB | [16:15] |
| asciilifeform: | aa! | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | ugh, still same; I chrooted, changed in lilo.conf to have LBA32 instead of linear; ran lilo; this time indeed there was no more warning re this (there was still one re video adapter but that doesn't matter really) | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | took stick out and booted, same trouble | [16:17] |
| asciilifeform: | but not mounts / ? | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | it goes mounting /dev/sda2 as root…. | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | Using mount -t auto -o ro | [16:18] |
| asciilifeform: | and then..? | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | and then the filesystem ounted at /dev/sda2 does not appear to be a valid /, try again | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | mounted* | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | Could not find the root block device in . | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | hm | [16:18] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: is sata in ahci mode in bios ? | [16:20] |
| asciilifeform: | or 'legacy' | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: seems dubious that it says just "in ." | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | I'd need to look, I don't remember for this box | [16:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i want to rule out the possibility that your box has a sata chipset that's commented out in the kernel config. | [16:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can you paste plz the output of lsmod (when booted from working stick) ? | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | lemme boot and look | [16:21] |
| asciilifeform: | ty | [16:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: but if indeed this so, then if set to 'legacy' then oughta boot. | [16:22] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=t8Ci | [16:25] |
| asciilifeform: | looks | [16:25] |
| asciilifeform: | so it's a 'megaraid' chipset ? | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | lemme fish out full spec | [16:27] |
| asciilifeform: | ty | [16:27] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: plz meanwhile set 'legacy' in bios and see whether boots ; if yes, that nails the culprit | [16:28] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and then easy fix when i find out which iron is actually in there ) | [16:29] |
| asciilifeform: | errybody wants trimmed kernels, nobody wants ~this~, but it's a genuine dilemma. | [16:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: plz also collect output of 'dmesg' on successfully booted stick. | [16:31] |
| asciilifeform: | (and paste.) | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | wtf can't quite find the thing; the motherboard is Asus M5A78L-M PLUS/USB3 HDMI Motherboard; the cpu is AMD FX-8350 Eight Core to 4.2GHz | [16:31] |
| asciilifeform: | this is enuff, i can look up from the vendor. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | let me run dmesg, 1 min | [16:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman ty | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | will have to go in 5 minutes so after that | [16:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: me too, the coffee is already on the table, but after that in 15m will come back, and do all of this that we did, on a box here on desk. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: fwiw indeed yes, sata IS set to ahci mode | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: and dmesg output http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=PGJr | [16:34] |
| asciilifeform: | try , before going plz, w/ 'legacy' . | [16:34] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 1 more thing : it should boot if the kernel in /boot were to be literally replaced with the 1 on the stick. | [16:36] |
| asciilifeform: | then can get userland quickly. | [16:36] |
| asciilifeform: | i unfortunately do not have your exact mb here, but will , if you dun get nao a running box, repeat the entire procedure with 'apu1' and write down actual cookbook to eliminate all other possible mistakes. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | where the fuck was that legacy thing in this bios, arrgh | [16:37] |
| asciilifeform: | where 'ahci' is now | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | lolyes | [16:37] |
| asciilifeform: | ok i'ma go and drink that cup, diana_coman . if i find that you did not get liftoff, will do as above described while you sleep and write the chronicle. | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | i am in newyork time btw. | [16:39] |
| asciilifeform: | brb | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: it will have to be laters/tomorrow | [16:40] |
| whaack: | a little update on my interests post. first, i thought this was understood but i want to clarify with you diana_coman that this post is not supposed to be a continuation of previous/future tmsr work but instead a list of the things that i am personally interested in. (that would be aeparate post that will come later.) second, i've come up with six categories: pr | [16:59] |
| whaack: | ogramming, cryptography, reading, spanish, guitar, and surfing. (Although i think programming/cryptography should be combined) From there I categorize the first 4 into academic/tmsr and the last 2 into non-academic/relaxation. then as mentioned before i list for each one my i) history 2) why i'm interested and 3) future goals | [16:59] |
| whaack: | let me know if this is off the mark. in any event gn diana_coman | [17:02] |
| asciilifeform: | starts the process, 1st to prep boot stick… | [17:06] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: update : building kernel, etc. and updating cookbook. tester is a 'amd e350', is prior to your 'fx' but similar chipset. will post result. | [20:58] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it is done!! i have reproduced fully the dulap-baking process. will deedbot the new, corrected and tested recipe, shortly. | [23:40] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-11#1945002 . | [23:50] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-11 asciilifeform: !!deed http://www.loper-os.org/pub/dulap_construction_kit_r2.txt | [23:50] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: would not have taken so long as it did, but this is VERY slow box. kernel compile 2+hrs. | [23:50] |
| asciilifeform: | the test machine booted as-expected on 1st try, and is running now. | [23:53] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i did not use 'apu1' , as it req's a serial port console to be config'd, and not applicable for your use case. but in the coming days i'ma replicate on a 'apu1' for own use. | [23:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the basic process, nao 100\% proven to work as printed in the new recipe. if it so happens that your irons need kern config changes, i'ma help to walk through this tomorrow. | [23:58] |
| asciilifeform: | with working box, nao, finally to bed. | [23:58] |
#ossasepia Logs for 10 Oct 2019
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Oct-2019#1004867 – at risk of stating the obvious, the theme is new. Poking at it a bit, I see on some pages (http://younghands.club/2019/09/week-12-plan-sep-30-oct-6/) the comment form stretches outside the background box and there's a gap above the footer background image; but not so on other pages | [00:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-09 12:06:39 diana_coman: I've restored from own backup and as far as I can see there's no loss; let me know if you spot any trouble though | [00:11] |
| jfw: | (http://younghands.club/2019/10/review-of-sept-29th-oct-9th/) | [00:11] |
| jfw: | More practically, I see from archive there used to be a "Written by" at the top. And, goodness, something is spilling all over in http://younghands.club/category/shreyas_ragavan/ | [00:17] |
| jfw: | http://archive.is/xAWMs – same as what I'm seeing. Looks fine in 'links' though! | [00:20] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Oct-2019#1004844 – it sure is :[ | [00:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-08 07:15:48 diana_coman: the avoidance by hard work; it's a thing too. | [00:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ask that Mia to register a key and come here, what; she's interested in finance after all, isn't she? invite her over. | [03:22] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: those were some tweaks to the theme I recall; it's somewhere down the list but yes. | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: well done, looking forward to seeing your blog back + travel posts & pics later today. | [03:35] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: let me know if you want me to dump somewhere that cobbled-up awk script from when I hunted a line; I don't even recall directly the state of it but problem was solved. | [03:36] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: and happy 32nd birthday! | [03:36] |
| diana_coman: | apparently the easiest re younghands.club theme is to simply switch it over to the "classic" that I was using on my blog too; so now it looks like ossasepia did, lolz. | [04:14] |
| diana_coman: | it will do for now. | [04:14] |
| diana_coman: | btw if any of you is any good making a wordpress theme, speak up. | [04:15] |
| whaack: | http://ztkfg.com/ is alive again. for some reason i do not have the format toolbar on adding a new post, and uploading images (via the web interface) does not work. These are both problems i was traveling, so it leads me to believe i have some issue with htaccess files on my new server. | [08:33] |
| whaack: | these are both problems i had while traveling* | [08:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the html format was never really supported by mp-wp; is that what you're looking for? | [08:56] |
| diana_coman: | I think billymg cut it out entirely in the last patch too so probably if you pressed all the way to it, there is none of that | [08:56] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: why upload them via the web interface anyway? scp is surely faster esp if you have a bunch of photos | [08:57] |
| whaack: | yup, no real need for uploading via the web interface. only useful aspect for the web interface is it i believe it automatically creates folders for archiving by date | [08:59] |
| whaack: | re html format not supported, okay cool. right i remember now billymg writing about getting rid of the gui. | [09:01] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so make yourself a script that does that too, what | [09:02] |
| whaack: | then the last little issue i have is some css i have to get back since the code in http://ztkfg.com/2019/05/ch-22-hierarchical-data-and-the-closure-property/ overflows off the page | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | that is theme-related but it can probably wait atm | [09:03] |
| whaack: | okay. i think the first order of business is creating the cron task for backing up my blog. | [09:04] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what's your new IP? | [09:05] |
| whaack: | 198.211.113.164 | [09:06] |
| diana_coman: | yep, that is a sensible no 1; and otherwise, it's precisely the ranking of stuff by importance that matters; not everything is just as important at any given time and your time is limited so it should be carefully spent rather than carelessly. | [09:07] |
| diana_coman: | hello crowncloud | [10:01] |
| crowncloud: | Hey, just saw the email | [10:01] |
| diana_coman: | glad you made it crowncloud | [10:01] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: would you be able to register a key with deedbot? http://deedbot.org/help.html | [10:02] |
| crowncloud: | having a look now | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | ask if you get stuck or anything | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: stop flying, yo! | [10:04] |
| whaack: | heh XD | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: it's a bit more than that but yes, it has wallet + invoicing + deeds + voice in #t | [10:06] |
| diana_coman: | you can talk here, there's no problem | [10:06] |
| crowncloud: | ah okay | [10:06] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: there will be quite a few people around here interested if you can make it work | [10:07] |
| crowncloud: | re: servers, currently we've got Intel Dual L5520's in stock | [10:07] |
| crowncloud: | with 72G RAM each | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: would you be able to colocate? | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | I saw you have datacentres in Europe and the USA? | [10:08] |
| crowncloud: | colocation currently we've got it available at Los Angeles, USA | [10:08] |
| diana_coman: | are you based in LA? | [10:09] |
| crowncloud: | no — our datacenter partner is in LA :) | [10:09] |
| diana_coman: | ah, I see; I did think crowncloud was australian | [10:09] |
| diana_coman: | hello Metronix | [10:10] |
| Metronix: | Helli diana_coman, I here in responding to your email. | [10:11] |
| Metronix: | *hello | [10:11] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: which company are you with? | [10:11] |
| Metronix: | Thanks for contacting metroworldhost.com | [10:11] |
| Metronix: | diana_coman: I am from metroworldhost.com | [10:12] |
| diana_coman: | ah, welcome Metronix, glad you made it; can you register a key with deedbot please? see http://deedbot.org/help.html | [10:12] |
| Metronix: | Sure things diana_coman. While I am registering to the deedbot. Would you mind if I asking you some questions in responding your email? | [10:13] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: go ahead | [10:14] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: ask anything | [10:17] |
| Metronix: | First, regarding to your questions about the AMD Dedicated Server, I need to inform you that the AMD processors is not available. we only have dedicated servers with Intel's processor. | [10:17] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: all right; would you be able to colocate our own servers though? | [10:18] |
| Metronix: | Regarding colocation server, we are sorry to inform you that for this time colocation service is not available yet. | [10:22] |
| Metronix: | I will let you know when it's ready | [10:23] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: are you working towards it? when is it planned to become available? | [10:23] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: if you register your key and hang around, there might still be something working out. | [10:24] |
| Metronix: | Yes, I am working towards it. Our current collocation space is full for this time and I need to order more racks in by the next months | [10:24] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: ok; regarding the amd dedicated servers – would you be able to order them for us, if you don't have any? | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud: how's it going? | [10:25] |
| crowncloud: | ah just setup irssi now | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | heh, nice. | [10:26] |
| crowncloud: | i'd rather use hexchat but then i'd need ZNC working. miight just do that instead | [10:26] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I'm on irssi; but any way that works so you stay connected is fine with me. | [10:27] |
| Metronix: | Could you please tell me what is the specific specs that you need? | [10:27] |
| Metronix: | *processor spec | [10:27] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: there are several machines and several people; atm you don't seem to have the capacity for what we want | [10:28] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: mind giving Metronix your concrete specs for an amd box? | [10:29] |
| Metronix: | Yep | [10:30] |
| Metronix: | If you don't mind I will ask my partner for the AMD Servers | [10:30] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: for which is this box to be use, diana_coman ? they had diff specs | [10:30] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I thought you wanted a box for yourself too? or not? | [10:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i wanted ~my~ box from uy, with FG, raid, that i personally built. | [10:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you're buying for self, you should already know the specs ? | [10:31] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ok; so you are interested in colo only. | [10:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: correct | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes, I know for self but there it's colo. | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | heh, ok | [10:32] |
| Metronix: | I see | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: don't dispair, lol. | [10:33] |
| Metronix: | haha, I try to help if possible | [10:33] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you need help to spec box for self & others, will help. keep in mind e.g. this. | [10:33] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-08 asciilifeform: diana_coman: here is how FGs went in machine, if this helps. if that space aint there (and in most boxes, in asciilifeform's experience, it aint) then can only put'em by e.g. forgoing raid card and using that space. or in 5in. disk slot (which most also lack.) | [10:33] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: what do you have available for dedicated? | [10:33] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes; atm though I'm snowed in with getting stuff back online + eulora, hence building a box took a back seat; I will ping though when I get to that, thank you. | [10:34] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: your smg box was iirc this. | [10:34] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2018-02-05 asciilifeform: (1) 2.3GHz x 32core (Opteron 6376) RAM Installed: 256G RAM Max: 256G | [10:34] |
| diana_coman: | actually that's an idea, why not | [10:34] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: that spec would work great ^ | [10:35] |
| Metronix: | Here is the spec list which is ready for right now: https://metronix.co.id/member/cart.php?gid=14 | [10:35] |
| Metronix: | 2.3GHz x 32core (Opteron 6376) RAM Installed: 256G RAM Max: 256G | [10:36] |
| Metronix: | ^ is it the required spec? | [10:36] |
| Metronix: | Let me check it to my partner | [10:36] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: yes, that's the required spec. | [10:37] |
| Metronix: | Would you mind to wait? I will let you know if I got any good news | [10:38] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: there's no rush at all; just register that key so that I know it's still you if you disconnect and otherwise if you can leave the chat on, it would work great | [10:40] |
| diana_coman: | not everybody is at their keyboards right now but people read the logs. | [10:41] |
| Metronix: | Okay | [10:41] |
| Metronix: | I am learning to create the key | [10:41] |
| Metronix: | Please wait.. | [10:41] |
| Metronix: | I launch a VPS to generate a gpg key lol | [10:42] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: that's not a very good idea | [10:42] |
| diana_coman: | you need to *keep* the private key *safe* and *not lose it* | [10:42] |
| Metronix: | Ah I see | [10:42] |
| Metronix: | So I could generate it on my Windows PC? | [10:42] |
| diana_coman: | it is your identity as far as I'm concerned | [10:42] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: you could, though it's a bit dubious that the pc is *yours* if you have windows on it | [10:43] |
| diana_coman: | but yes, use Kleopatra | [10:43] |
| Metronix: | Ah I see | [10:43] |
| diana_coman: | where was that link for the step-by-step thing even | [10:43] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: the airgapping guide? | [10:43] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: no, it was specifically to create a gpg key, iirc used for eulora | [10:44] |
| whaack: | does not know of this guide | [10:45] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup | [10:45] |
| diana_coman: | heh, whaack ^ | [10:45] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: you need only to make the key from there, no need to register with eulora too (though you *can*, if you want to, lol) | [10:45] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: otherwise just look for a tutorial for Kleopatra I guess | [10:45] |
| crowncloud_: | hmm deedbot keeps saying "deedbot> Import failed for <url to public key>" | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: use paste.deedbot.org | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | paste there the public key | [10:49] |
| diana_coman: | and give that url to deedbot | [10:49] |
| crowncloud_: | mhm same thing, !!register http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=<my-id-here> | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: not your key id | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | go to paste.deedbot.org paste in there your *public* key | [10:50] |
| crowncloud_: | yup the .ssh/id_rsa.pub value right | [10:50] |
| Metronix: | Which one is the public key? | [10:51] |
| Metronix: | http://prntscr.com/phguh9 | [10:51] |
| crowncloud_: | make a backup of the key-pair, 1 will be .pub thats the one usually | [10:51] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: the content of the .pub file e.g. http://wot.deedbot.org/E72DCCB73A5E06694C5CD781D5196EE6390F999E.asc | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: the .pub is for public aka yes, the public key; the other you should keep secret; and crowncloud_ is right, make a backup at the very least, lol. | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: can you give me the paste.deedbot url you are trying to feed to deedbot? | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: it should be something like paste.deebot.org/?id=O-6u | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | aka 4 chars, not your key id | [10:54] |
| crowncloud_: | ah yep got it, i was using the ssh public key haha generating a gpg one now | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: ha; gpg key, yes. | [10:56] |
| whaack: | Metronix: re your pic, the fingerprint does not need to be kept secret. It is a hash of your public key. My blog actually displays my fingerprint prominently under my handle http://ztkfg.com/ | [10:56] |
| Metronix: | I see | [10:57] |
| Metronix: | I already get the public key | [10:57] |
| Metronix: | and the private key | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: keep the private key for yourself and yourself ONLY | [10:57] |
| Metronix: | Well noted | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | with the public key, go to paste.deedbot.org and paste there the contents; it should start with —-BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK as in http://wot.deedbot.org/E72DCCB73A5E06694C5CD781D5196EE6390F999E.asc | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | once you paste it there, you'll get an url and you feed that to deedbot | [10:58] |
| Metronix: | !!register | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: to deedbot, not in here | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | go /msg deedbot !!register your-url | [10:59] |
| Metronix: | deedbot 20:57:37 | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: hm? | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: you did it, well done! | [11:01] |
| Metronix: | I am done registering | [11:01] |
| Metronix: | Yep, finally :)) | [11:01] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: how come you ran out of space in the dc, lol? | [11:02] |
| Metronix: | I am sharing space with my partner | [11:03] |
| Metronix: | And I need to wait for my partner to order more space | [11:04] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: so who is your partner? | [11:04] |
| Metronix: | my own brother lol | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | so then why have to wait? lol | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | did it fill unexpectedly or what? | [11:05] |
| Metronix: | Recently we got so many order from a local company | [11:06] |
| Metronix: | They already book lot of space | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: that's good though, no/ | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | ? | [11:06] |
| Metronix: | including my brother company | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | heh, he overflowed his own associate-isp or what | [11:07] |
| Metronix: | Indonesian data centre is very limited for this time | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: so do you have plans to expand further afield then? | [11:07] |
| Metronix: | I need to look up for a newer dc | [11:07] |
| Metronix: | yep | [11:07] |
| Metronix: | but still counting for the cost of expanding | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | well, better look for them before you really need them urgently, by the sounds of it | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: that's no reason not to collect all the data and have a clear plan upfront though. | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: what data centre are you with currently? | [11:08] |
| Metronix: | Cyber Data Center Cyber Building 2nd Floor Jl. Kuningan Barat No.8 Jakarta Selatan 12710, Indonesia | [11:09] |
| Metronix: | That's my dc location | [11:09] |
| Metronix: | lot of hosting company right there | [11:10] |
| Metronix: | and the dc is a little bit crowded :)) | [11:10] |
| diana_coman: | Metronix: for how long have you been with them? | [11:10] |
| Metronix: | since 2010 lol | [11:10] |
| Metronix: | I already know everyone on the dc. | [11:10] |
| Metronix: | by the way, I got to go | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | in that time, I'd expect you do indeed. | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | ok, feel free to leave the chat on and come back later | [11:11] |
| Metronix: | i will come back later | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | the chan is logged too so you can catch up with anything anyway | [11:11] |
| Metronix: | it's already 9pm in Indonesia | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | ah; good night then! | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: how's that rsa key making? | [11:11] |
| Metronix: | You could email me to ryo@metroworld.co.id | [11:11] |
| Metronix: | See you later | [11:12] |
| crowncloud_: | yep all done | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: ah, you registered it from crowncloud_ | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | works for me | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | I'll rate you a bit later today and then you'll have access to #trilema too | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: what dedicated servers do you have available and where? | [11:17] |
| crowncloud_: | currently, we could do 2-3x of Intel Dual Xeon L5520 / 72 GB RAM @ Los Angeles, California | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | los angeles is a bit iffy for sending machines really but I'll look into it anyway. | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: can you put gentoo with python 2.7 (NOT older) + gcc 4.9 (not older) on them? | [11:19] |
| crowncloud_: | I could get you a KVMoverIP on it (remote-console thing with ISO mount support) and you can install any operating system on them you like :) | [11:19] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: your site lists some servers in atlanta too; what's that? | [11:19] |
| crowncloud_: | yeah Atlanta, Georgia, USA / US – East | [11:19] |
| diana_coman: | eh, my likes don't quite include another ton of operating systems really if I can help it | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | atlanta might at least be closer to some people, I'll have to ask | [11:20] |
| crowncloud_: | could do a Dual Intel Xeon E5620 @ 2.4Ghz / 12GB GB RAM | [11:20] |
| crowncloud_: | there | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: for a current emergency it might work; what OS *can* you install on it so I don't have to do that too? | [11:21] |
| crowncloud_: | We usually do the common ones like CentOS 6/7/8, Debian 8/9/10, Ubuntu 16.04/18.04/19.04/19.10 | [11:22] |
| diana_coman: | ah, centos 6 can work for the emergency, yes. | [11:22] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: can you get http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2018-02-05#1781749 ? | [11:22] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2018-02-05 asciilifeform: (1) 2.3GHz x 32core (Opteron 6376) RAM Installed: 256G RAM Max: 256G | [11:22] |
| crowncloud_: | could something newer in AMD could work? AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX ? | [11:24] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: mind joining #trilema please? there's Mircea Popescu who wants to talk to you (he's the CEO of Minigame, among other things) | [11:25] |
| crowncloud_: | benchmarks at 23163 vs 10405 of the Opeteron | [11:25] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: reasons are complicated why I prefer older, not to do with benchmarks. | [11:25] |
| diana_coman: | crowncloud_: please join #trilema and we'll get back to this later; I'll probably take an Intel for now anyway. | [11:26] |
| crowncloud_: | aha | [11:26] |
| crowncloud_: | ok am there. | [11:26] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do you have anywhere/can I have an image of what you installed on the s.mg machines? as it's on older, frozen version of gentoo, I'm not sure I can reproduce it exactly otherwise. | [13:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma look to see what is most recent backup of this | [13:34] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I'm still digesting #t logs. | [13:38] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can you get BingoBoingo to plug in your smg box in his pad to access ? my backup here seems to be missing that tarball (it was huge, apparently got aborted during load) and as ill-luck has it, the other copy is on dulap disks, which i already had him mail… | [13:41] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it is also my understanding that hanbot has a copy. | [13:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: and for some reason i thought you had already moved to proper cuntoo ? | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: no, it was proto-cuntoo, remember? the "proper cuntoo" didn't really move past the genesis & tarballs | [13:43] |
| asciilifeform: | grr | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: at any rate, there are 2 servers and the production one still carries all dependencies so it won't compile on cuntoo for sure | [13:44] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Oct-2019#1004972 << will ask. I saw you recommended Kleopatra. Any other recommendations for getting noobs through the process on a windows machine? | [13:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 03:22:29 diana_coman: thimbronion: ask that Mia to register a key and come here, what; she's interested in finance after all, isn't she? invite her over. | [13:44] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if it cannot be quickly found, i'ma rebake it for you from 0 for phree, plz lemme know. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | for the dev one, when I'm done trimming *all* mess, it should work, but still. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: does it take a lot to rebake? | [13:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: takes a day. | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what are *you* doing on a windows machine? | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ugh. | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | what do you rebake it from? | [13:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not on a windows machine, she is. | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: who? Mia? | [13:46] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: gentoo 2015. | [13:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes | [13:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman asciilifeform: I am willing a maneuver to help the OS image's recovery. Think of concrete instructions on how you want to get the image off. Mind that the speed at which data leaves my present connection over prolonged transfers is slow and prone to reset when Antel blinks me on to new IP address | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there is that tutorial on eulorum, I linked it earlier for one of the isp guys, that's about it | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: kleopatra and gpg4win, usually even the most noobish people managed to follow but you might still need to hold her hand over it | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: that's a bit last option , I'd say; thank you; atm I'm rummaging to see if I have any gentoo 2015 | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: boot from stick (one that understands raid, bv's should work) and dd if=/dev/sda gzip /mnt/aspare1tbssd/image.gz . then sftp to diana_coman's current temp box. | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | err, gzip -c | [13:48] |
| diana_coman: | I found a 2014, lol | [13:49] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: That solution's going to have be done tomorrow at the earliest. Involves either wheeling box or acquiring some sort of monitor. Maybe be able to do it getting a cable to adapt it display to the tv. Absolutely NOT using the bv bootstick except as an absolute last resort. | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: aha, don't do that please; | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | hm, I have 2014 and I have 2016, lolz; anyway, I'll try to work with what I have. | [13:54] |
| BingoBoingo: | also disinclined to power on servers in environment with long barely visible Latina hairs that appear about as fast as they can be swept. | [13:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | can put servers at height above where here head maxes, but… | [14:01] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: plox to try, it is almost certainly faster than the other options to help diana_coman | [14:05] |
| asciilifeform: | curses the shit pipe again, this thing oughta 100\% have been in the autobackup | [14:06] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Willing to try, but at least a tomorrow task at the earliest | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | BingoBoingo: asciilifeform I would just leave it, really; I'll set it up on what I have and see how it works out since if it really doesn't, I might have a bigger problem anyway. | [14:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ok | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | thank you, I really do appreciate the offer though. | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | I'm a bit tired so it might not come across properly but I do. | [14:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: offer stands, plox to ping asap if needed so i can begin preparation | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | thanks, I will. | [14:27] |
| asciilifeform: | hey diana_coman i found it | [14:49] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: do you want it ? | [14:49] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma upload to ancient host, but may take hr or so | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes! | [15:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: uploaded ! writing instructions nao | [15:08] |
| diana_coman: | thank you. | [15:08] |
| asciilifeform: | ( afaik no one other than myself has fired this thing, so i'ma have to explain how ) | [15:10] |
| diana_coman: | please do, yes. | [15:12] |
| asciilifeform: | proofreading instructions, will post shortly. | [15:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-10#1944670 . | [15:42] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-10 asciilifeform: !!deed http://www.loper-os.org/pub/dulap_construction_kit.txt | [15:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: tarball url inside. | [15:42] |
| diana_coman: | I'll get on it, thank you asciilifeform | [15:43] |
| asciilifeform: | np diana_coman . please do not hesitate to ask q, the instructions were written hastily and may contain mistake. | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | will do. | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | I might get to follow them tomorrow only, with a fresh(er) mind. | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | aite. | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i neglected to include 'regen yer ssh hostkey' but imho this is obvious to ~erryone. | [15:52] |
| diana_coman: | at least everyone here, hopefully yes. | [15:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it is possible to 'emerge' packages on a machine filled with this. but under no circumstances run 'emerge –sync' . | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: aha. | [15:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: packages for whom the mirrors have fallen down , can be taken from trinque's collection and placed in /usr/portage/distfiles , and will then emerge. | [15:55] |
| asciilifeform: | dulap-gentoo is a wartime creation and considered — obsolete. but i have been using it. | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | I think by now *that* might be just about the only potential trouble really; ie if some needed package meanwhile became unobtainable. | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: do not hesitate to ask for tarballs that for some reason cannot be found in trinque's, i will pull'em from tapes. | [15:56] |
| diana_coman: | will do. | [15:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's your plan re yuour blog, I don't recall? | [16:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: the plan was to have it back up by Sunday eod. I have retrieved my backups, so things are looking good. I'm probably going to put it on digitalocean for now, until I can find something better. | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok; just remember that Sunday eod is also deadline for the plan + review anyway. | [16:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i am considering to house 4u of irons incl. new rk plant experimentally in bmor at own risk & expense. will see whether anyone wants in, otherwise will e.g. trb. | [16:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I ran into an issue while pressing mp-wp: http://paste.deedbot.org/ | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you forgot the actual paste? | [16:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes, it is getting a bit tight to be getting the blog up, writing a new plan and review, and finishing the summary review on Sunday. | [16:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=mch3 | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: are you using a keccak V? | [16:22] |
| diana_coman: | because that looks like you are not. | [16:23] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not | [16:23] |
| diana_coman: | all vpatches currently in use are meant to use keccak hashes. | [16:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: do you have a keccak V? | [16:23] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't | [16:24] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: why didn't you want to do that when mp asked but you want to do it now? I'm confused; maybe I still did not digest the #t logs. | [16:24] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: he wanted whole cabinet. i cannot cover cost of cabinet + pipes to cabinet's worth of machines atm. | [16:25] |
| diana_coman: | but the way I read it, you weren't meant to personally cover it anyway; and the "asked" was esp re list of items because now it seems you actually have at least 4u of irons, possibly more? | [16:25] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it is very easy to obtain irons. the part where barf is 'here's pile of btc, convert it to what dc eats.' presently i do not have a reliable means for this. | [16:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if/when can find this missing instrument, can get rack, or even multiple racks. | [16:27] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: but atm i cannot attest to the quality of this machine park, it has to be tested . | [16:27] |
| asciilifeform: | there is only 1 way to test. | [16:28] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: lmk if you have any issues with setup on digitalocean. I used ubuntu 18, the default mysql from apt-get, and php5.6 | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | I suspect you sometimes barf a bit too early really; and can't quite expect one confronted with barf to then also wait for what might follow. | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yuuuuuck | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I suppose you also installed latest wordpress though, didn't you? | [16:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma proceed w/ reconnaissance by fire re bmr , at own risk. | [16:29] |
| whaack: | no, using mpwp | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I get it; just… it so seems you are making it harder for yourself at every juncture, sigh. | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ok, at least that. | [16:30] |
| whaack: | i didn't use any of their one-click things through their web portal, although apt-get is ~same thing | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | yeah and ubuntu 18 is already rather dog-food but anyways. | [16:31] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: can you point me to where I can get a keccak v? | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: let me upload it to younghands.club | [16:32] |
| whaack: | i think ubuntu 16 was the earliest version they had | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | it used to live on my blog, sigh. | [16:32] |
| whaack: | i considered going with centos, but i have not used it before and didn't want to get stuck during desperate times | [16:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that makes sense at least, yes. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | and on looking again I think I read "python" instead of php hence ultra-barfed on the version. | [16:37] |
| whaack: | LOL | [16:37] |
| whaack: | i guess it is not inconceivable that reddit would have reached some v5.6 for python by now | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion see http://younghands.club/v-trees/ | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | anyone else interested, the v_keccak starter zip + my sig for it is ^ | [16:42] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: thanks | [16:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I'm unable to build gprbuild on my gentoo: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Rf_N. I'm wondering if you've run into this before? | [16:55] |
| thimbronion: | oh hmm. actually that just means I neede to pick a use flag… | [16:58] |
| thimbronion: | Is there a preference between gnat_2016 and gnat_2017? | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: no, you need a gnat,lol | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: go with 2016 | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | it's anyway not fully sure it will work properly since it's probably not adacore's | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | dang, I'll have to upload *that* too,won't I | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: go with 2016 and see | [17:04] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrow | [17:07] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-10#1004974 << I'd love a copy of said script, but pls don't feel the need to rush. I've got many omelettes to push out of the kitchen in the meantime | [20:51] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 06:35:54 diana_coman: lobbes: let me know if you want me to dump somewhere that cobbled-up awk script from when I hunted a line; I don't even recall directly the state of it but problem was solved. | [20:51] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-10#1004975 << ty btw | [20:51] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-10 06:36:09 diana_coman: lobbes: and happy 32nd birthday! | [20:51] |
#ossasepia Logs for 09 Oct 2019
| whaack: | good morning/afternoon. diana_coman: do you have advice on finding a new home for my bouncer and blog? MivoCloud appears to be a least-bad choice even given the recent #t thread. but perhaps it's better to spread out | [11:27] |
| thimbronion: | jfw thanks for the paste. I will reference this when choosing an ircd. | [11:43] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what are your requirements exactly? | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw so far mivocloud indeed still looks best for access & responsiveness. | [11:51] |
| diana_coman: | that being said, if you want a vps, I don't really know if it makes any difference really | [11:51] |
| diana_coman: | the whole idea of a vps is that it's fungible so… | [11:52] |
| whaack: | as of now very little. i just need a (shared) place i can ssh into and setup mpwp on and run a bouncer. in the future i will want a dedicated machine to run a node. | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so I'd say for a shared place, just go with whatever, maybe even some dc close enough to you if you think you can actually end up later talking to them | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | but other than that, what diff does it make really | [11:56] |
| diana_coman: | for the node, you can run it with mivocloud, at least there isn't as yet any node there, helps with the spread | [11:56] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: plan update: I'm going to spend the time I would have spent contacting irc network admins tihs week re-establishing my blog. I estimate I can have tihs done by Sunday, depending on when my backups from pizarro become available. | [11:58] |
| whaack: | okay good to know re btc node | [12:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: works; the pizarro imploding is indeed catastrophic-level so needs tending; but: what do you mean re backups? | [12:03] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: don't you have your own backups? | [12:03] |
| asciilifeform: | errybody's getting backup, diana_coman . but yes people who had own, will have sooner. | [12:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I didn't set up backups for my pizarro blog. | [12:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: *always* set up backups; always. | [12:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: my pizarro blog is pretty much the only thing I have that's not backed up. | [12:05] |
| whaack: | i confess i also do not have backups for my pizarro posts. | [12:06] |
| diana_coman: | jfw, shrysr, lobbes, whaack, thimbronion, anyone else even remotely interested: younghands.club is back online at its new IP 185.163.47.240 | [12:06] |
| diana_coman: | I've restored from own backup and as far as I can see there's no loss; let me know if you spot any trouble though | [12:06] |
| asciilifeform: | all the folx who neglected to make backups, plz talk to BingoBoingo , he is setting up with trinque a box where you can get gpg'd dumps of yer boxen. | [12:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: what process did you use to backup younghands.club? | [12:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: a script dumping the db locally + ran by crontab; another script+crontab retrieving the whole www + home dirs remotely & storing them to the 1st backup level | [12:11] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: a 30 second solution (albeit maybe not the best) would be a recursive wget | [12:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that's a rather ugh solution | [12:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack, thimbronion talk to BingoBoingo and get your backups then; but yes, MAKE BACKUPS. | [12:12] |
| BingoBoingo: | baking .tar.gzips | [12:13] |
| diana_coman: | thank you BingoBoingo for saving their asses really. | [12:13] |
| whaack: | BingoBoingo: yes ty. | [12:13] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: thimbronion do you have mp-wp? | [12:14] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes. only missing the db dump. | [12:15] |
| whaack: | yes that was what ztkfg.com was running on | [12:15] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I know it was; the q is if you still have it locally though; | [12:15] |
| whaack: | ah sorry of course. no i need to get it again | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | right; let me put it somewhere on younghands.club I suppose | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | probably will come in handy for others too | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | but hm, do you people have at least a working V locally? | [12:17] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: my local v has issues – likely related to running on osx, but I haven't yet solved them. I do have a working v on my colo though. | [12:20] |
| whaack: | my local v also with issues | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | you know, v can't have issues, sorry to inform. | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | and what the fuck is this, "has issues"; next it will have rights too or something; either you say specifically what is *wrong* with your setup or you sort it out already. | [12:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | The backups being .tar.gz.gpg 'd up home directories and .sql dumps for everyone. It's just taking time to bake them. Some are rather large. | [12:23] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i had not used v on this machine in a while and when you asked i ran it and it ran into an error. but it appears fixed. the problem was there was a newline before the #!/usr/bin/perl | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: moral being, don't rush. | [12:26] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Oct-2019#1004866 << logged in for a quick check. fwiw: it is ***much*** faster to load than before, even on my mine connection. | [12:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-09 12:06:19 diana_coman: jfw, shrysr, lobbes, whaack, thimbronion, anyone else even remotely interested: younghands.club is back online at its new IP 185.163.47.240 | [12:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I suspect there were a few layers slowing that install down; anyways, good to know it works well. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack thimbronion , anyone else interested, v-trees page (with mpwp patches only, for now): http://younghands.club/v-trees/ | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | to add the meat to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Oct-2019#1004872 : the reason why a recursive wget is a very poor "backup" solution is that you get the *output* rather than the source of your website; ie the restore will be a pain in the ass. | [13:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-09 12:11:36 diana_coman: whaack: that's a rather ugh solution | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | and more generically, the approach "will grab the looks" betrays a user view of the matter rather than an owner's | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | while it may seem initially "easier", it's a whole lot *harder* as soon as you actually try to do anything with it (ie as soon as you need to do a restore) | [13:44] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: re: v-trees ty I find this helpful and will use it to properly press mp-wp. | [13:47] |
| whaack: | likewise. brb setting up bouncer. | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what's your plan for those few days until the Sunday deadline? | [16:59] |
| whaack: | First, i am getting ztkfg.com back online. (currently doing that now on digitalocean) Then I would like to publish my Seoul post and at least jot down some notes on Tokyo. Tomorrow until Sunday I will be working on the my-interests post, although I haven't planned on how i'm going to break down the hours spent writing the post. | [17:06] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you don't need a too-detailed breakdown; what you *do* need however is a clear limit on other activities (ie reserved time for the work) | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | ideally with breaks too esp since it's potentially something on which you need to do background thinking too ie while doing other stuff | [17:08] |
| whaack: | One other thing that is time sensitive is figuring out if there's any items i need to obtain to bring to CR. I would like an FG for example but that may take a week+ to ship. | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: atm afaik FG are not for sale really | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | dunno if this changes once pizarro ashes settle down but it's not something you should wait on now | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | not to mention – you don't need it *now* anyway | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | but do plan your stuff /luggage/trip/whatever for cr too | [17:10] |
| whaack: | alright. i can always get it in CR later, it's just more of a hassle. | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: it might be easier actually; mp got his without any trouble, in cr (and not by special mail or anything of the sort) | [17:14] |
| whaack: | okay, i imagine my mail receiving will be a little more tricky since i am far from SJO and can only be reached via dirt roads, but i really have nfi | [17:17] |
| whaack: | it will probably just require a trip to a post office | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | I wouldn't worry about that *now*; plenty more pressing matters really; fwiw costa ricans are used to own dirt roads and no addresses anyway so yeah, I'd be surprised if it doesn't make it to your door brought by a smiley girl too. | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | but in any case: it might be more difficult to actually get a FG as such atm esp if it's just like that to try one/no clear useful output in sight. | [17:20] |
| whaack: | right. i do not feel in dire need of an FG right now. i was just using it as an example of an item that may be easier to obtain if i try to get it ~today rather than later. More pressing is hardware/batteries to deal with electricity issues. During the rainy season it's not so uncommon for the power to die for 24hours+ | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: listen, focus this week, ok? list the things you *have* to do, pin that list on your nose if you have to but *stick* to it | [17:24] |
| whaack: | ok | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | aha, *that* is certainly more pressing because without electricity, uhm; so can't you get a generator or what? | [17:24] |
| whaack: | i will look for one. maybe it'd be better if i just found a place to buy one in CR since that may be a pain to carry / give me trouble at the airport | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yes, I meant one in CR | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | but do *look* before you go, plan it or it won't happen | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | from what I understand you know people there already so talk to them, ask them etc | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: how long does it take you to jot down a to-do list for this week? | [17:32] |
| whaack: | well I just made this http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=y_Un , idk if this is specific enough though | [17:33] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack: The kinda generator you need for 24+ hour outages is a buy locally thing. Even the kind you use for up to 8 are too heavy per baggagehandler union rules | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: that's a schedule; a to-do list goes 1. find out if/where I can buy a generator in CR 2. write the full post on interests 3. … | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: schedule is fine, sure, but a different thing. | [17:38] |
| whaack: | ok i will make a separate todo list and adjust the schedule if necessary to have the goal of completing the todo list. | [17:39] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: my q was *how long*; because if you can jot it down in half-hour max, do it and publish it and we can use it; if it takes you one day, it's not worth it | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | this to-do list is to help you focus & organise, not an exam | [17:40] |
| whaack: | yeah its the kind of thing i could get trapped rewriting over and over and wasting a day on. so how about I dedicate 30 mins to it right now and see what comes out | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: sounds good, go ahead. | [17:44] |
| whaack: | http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ekky (took 25 mins) | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: as long as you did not spill it over 30 at least; though honestly, you are overthinking/over-optimising too soon | [18:11] |
| whaack: | okay. i noticed that i did have 90\% of that in the first ~10 mins and didn't really gain anything for the last 15 mins, that's why i quit before using up the 30min. | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so let's see, you have 3 main things: tmsr, cr trip, meat | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you really need to learn to structure stuff better; for one thing you are mixing categories there, what sort of enummeration is that ? | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | all items need to be same type aka if you classify something, you can't change criteria in the middle | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | some tasks are by frequency, others by topic and so on | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, back to it: for tmsr you need to setup your blog, do the travel backlog, do the post that kept growing/was postponed; hopefully this last one was not abandoned until now but anyways | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | for CR you need basics in luggage + making sure you can work from there (incl…travel adapters if needed, lolz) & preparing the ground as much as you can; | [18:18] |
| diana_coman: | re books I don't know – you can't order them there or what? | [18:18] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: are there some specific books you need all of a sudden? why/what? | [18:19] |
| whaack: | re categorization – ack that it is dumb. maybe there's no reason to have any categorization and instead i should only order by priority | [18:20] |
| whaack: | re books: i just consider that such as luggage that benefits from prepping. there's stocked bookstores here in nyc, but not where i am there. i guess it is low priority since as you mention i can just figure out how to order them there. | [18:23] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: and books are *heavy* | [18:26] |
| diana_coman: | (says one who lugged about a whole library though not in one go) | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | but note that you can get them delivered there too, what | [18:27] |
| whaack: | okay. i have heard stories of people in my general area having trouble getting stuff delivered and perhaps have been planning on this misconception that it is impossible. | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so better talk to them and find out exactly what dumb thing they did to have trouble, so you don't do it too | [18:29] |
| BingoBoingo: | The books I packed for Uruguay were the least useful items by weight and volume | [18:30] |
| diana_coman: | understand that the world *responds* to what you do, really; so there is no such generic, overall thing "can't do x or y" | [18:30] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: anyway, I'd say finish setting up your blog today + any of the backlog of travel stuff you can manage; then for making luggage focus on the goals there ie what you know already that you *need* | [18:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: for the post re interests, work on it every day rather than all of it in one go; and esp do it properly rather than just quickly at the end for another lack of time or whatever | [18:33] |
| diana_coman: | and ofc, plan in some meat wot-bye time, why not, just not excessive, it's not another planet entirely | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ask if there is/appears more fuziness; don't polish inconsequential stuff | [18:35] |
| whaack: | okay ty. i'll try to get the blog online today but jetlag is starting to kick in so if i run into some issue i may just get it done early tomorrow morning. | [18:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ok; sleep, certainly. | [18:38] |
| whaack: | and i will minizime time derping trying to brainstorm things i will want for CR | [18:39] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: cool deal. | [18:39] |
| whaack: | got ztkfg.com to a hello world state. off to bed. | [21:43] |
| lobbes: | grr seems my logger is missing a single line from #ossasepia from a few days ago. Will need to hunt this down at some point | [21:56] |
#ossasepia Logs for 08 Oct 2019
| jfw: | Ahoy. I'm caught up here and finally got into the back logs, though I need to keep at it. I also got an MP-WP blog online and kicked off, http://welshcomputing.com/fixpoint/ . I believe pingbacks are broken because I put it behind a gateway and this trips an anti-backscatter IP check. It's now down altogether with Pizarro where I was sharing a Rockchip… based on what I'm seeing in #trilema I'm | [01:52] |
| jfw: | thinking it best to restore on VPS for now. | [01:52] |
| jfw: | I failed myself at least in that I let myself fall into a tarpit on blog setup and quite overrun into the time I had supposedly reserved for investigating my questions here. I will try again. | [01:58] |
| jfw: | asciilifeform, BingoBoingo or others: I'm in the market to buy a small stock of FUCKGOATS, let's say up to 10 but depending on price. Are there any to be had? | [02:07] |
| jfw: | I'm aware danielpbarron was selling on ebay, but does not appear to be at present. | [02:07] |
| jfw: | thimbronion: not sure where you are on ircd research but I have some gossip on the topic from my files in case it's of use. Naturally I'd prefer to blog it but for now: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=qAdV | [02:22] |
| whaack_flying: | greetings. i have not fully digested the logs but i am aware that the republic is currently putting out major fires. (or rather salvaging what is left from fires.) after getting back and sleeping (in about ~30 hours) my first goals will be to find a new home for ztkfg.com, finish up trip blogging, and then completing my "my-interests" posts | [04:42] |
| maxim_mivo: | Hello, MivoCloud here. | [04:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: I'll set up younghands.club at new address later today and will ping people when it's done; other than that though this week is clearly no-deadline thing ie publish it when you can rather than by any deadline. | [05:15] |
| diana_coman: | hello whaack_flying | [05:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_f_: better keep on flying and leave the irc for when you are back on the ground | [05:35] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Oct-2019#1004833 – it's very easy to suddenly find *other* things (of all sorts, even nasty ones) spilling over into time for that one-thing-I-really-don't-want-to-do | [07:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-08 01:58:26 jfw: I failed myself at least in that I let myself fall into a tarpit on blog setup and quite overrun into the time I had supposedly reserved for investigating my questions here. I will try again. | [07:15] |
| diana_coman: | the avoidance by hard work; it's a thing too. | [07:15] |
| diana_coman: | !o help | [18:16] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen | [18:16] |
#ossasepia Logs for 07 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | rekt_: привет! are you in Russia? | [03:15] |
| rekt_: | No, that is one of my languages | [03:15] |
| rekt_: | Russian ftw | [03:16] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: what other languages do you speak then? | [03:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ah, your blog is with pizarro too, sigh; I'll look at the paste later today | [03:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: at a quick look: 1. you really need to practice saying things *in your own words*; 2. when you go "how is x different from y" the answer should take the shape of "x is this way while y is that way" for various "way" | [03:21] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: lolz, you have two 1; re first paragraph of your summary – you don't merely replace the mushroom metaphor, you outright change the subject there! your first paragraph betrays a "wtf, I have no idea what this is" re the first original paragraph | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and instead of struggling to figure out what the author actually says there, you trim and chop it to fit your pre-existing thoughts | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as I said it before to shrysr , so it applies to you: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Sep-2019#1004132 | [03:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-27 15:51:51 diana_coman: shrysr: when you read something it should be a lot more the *other* way around – you may look at how you fit the description there (even how you change to fit the description there) and certainly NOT "how to change the description to fit me" | [03:25] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: don't be shy; the more you engage and interact, the better for you really; and who knows what comes out of it. | [03:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: a review (as well as quite a few other things actually, god dammit it) has a structure too, you know? you don't just plonk "this is dog" and then put there whatever went on in your mind. | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | *before* you are allowed to publish words you should *know what the fuck you want to say* | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | sure, you can write 1mn drafts and work your way in writing to understanding | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | but they are not going to be called summaries for that, no matter how many times you introduce them as such | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you know, if you *have to say* "this is a summary/review/dog", chances are very, very high that it's precisely because it is…not yet a summary/review/dog | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | you should get some slop for dinner, served with a very nice label "this is cordon bleu"; see what that does for you. | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there are several ways you can structure your review, sure; but structure it you must; if it's just "something that grew", it's the above slop. | [11:01] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: do the simplest of structures: start with the goal (you're reviewing your own summary as an exercise and as a needed step to be able to improve on next attempt) overall conclusion (it sucks on aspect A, B, C; there is perhaps D that sort of works but fails short on E etc) and then take each of those aspects and detail them | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | at the end, you can add then the discussion as to why each fail, sure; it's basically part of fulfilling that original goal of the exercise. | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | but note that a review in itself is *not concerned* with whatever excuses; it's concerned with evaluating the thing reviewed, as it stands, that's all. | [11:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: on the irc task: what's your current plan re talking to them? | [11:14] |
| rekt_: | Hi. Sorry, a little busy | [11:51] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: My plan is to start at the top of the list, find out who is in charge of administering the network and state the facts, document response. I would prefer to wait until my blog is back up so I can have mp's and your comments more freshly in mind before going in. If my blog is not back by tonight I will go in tomorrow without it. | [11:53] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Oct-2019#1004751 << I will rewrite review by EOD Sunday. | [12:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-07 11:05:12 diana_coman: thimbronion: do the simplest of structures: start with the goal (you're reviewing your own summary as an exercise and as a needed step to be able to improve on next attempt) overall conclusion (it sucks on aspect A, B, C; there is perhaps D that sort of works but fails short on E etc) and then take each of those aspects and detail them | [12:03] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: all right; mind you state the goal in your *own words* + ask if stuck/lost again, yes? | [12:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: How do I know some words are my own? | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: practice; try restating that goal-statement in at least 3 ways. | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: some words are your own if you a. know exactly what they mean b. know exactly why you chose to use *each of them* to say whatever you are saying | [12:06] |
| diana_coman: | it's not enough to say "I agree with X's statement" | [12:06] |
| diana_coman: | that is at best a sort of passive understanding of a thing and it's *not enough* | [12:06] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: say something | [12:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I know I have questions but I don't think they'll be clear to me until I try the restatement exercise. | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: all right; how about http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Oct-2019#1004754 ? | [12:19] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-07 11:14:23 diana_coman: thimbronion: on the irc task: what's your current plan re talking to them? | [12:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Oct-2019#1004756 | [12:19] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-07 11:53:37 thimbronion: diana_coman: My plan is to start at the top of the list, find out who is in charge of administering the network and state the facts, document response. I would prefer to wait until my blog is back up so I can have mp's and your comments more freshly in mind before going in. If my blog is not back by tonight I will go in tomorrow without it. | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re your blog yes, ugh; we will have to wait and sort it out first indeed, for several reasons; re plan though: you just need to go to their admin chan or whatever and *ask* who is in charge + talk, that's all. | [12:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: can you expand more on talk? | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's the unclear part there? you know, like every time you go to a new place, you say hello and where you're coming from + why you are there + asking who should you be talking to if not there/them; let them answer, answer the challenges etc | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | re coming from – TMSR in this case, hopefully that much is clear | [12:25] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I wasn't clear on the difference between "stating the facts" and talking. | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: talking involves actually interacting with the other party ie reacting as well as stating the facts | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | several steps. | [12:28] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Is there a particular link that would be best in this context for giving to administrators who are curious about TMSR? | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: in this particular context I'd give them the logger really with direct statement that look, we have several very active and lively chans + infrastructure and all | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | and invite them to join to find out more, sure, why not | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | come and talk to us directly, why not | [12:29] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: hm yes, this makes much sense. | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | you can ofc give basic explanations, there's the main forum #trilema and then various castles covering different aspects, it's growing etc | [12:30] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: in that case I would definitely like to wait until we figure out what is going on in uy. Definitely don't want to send them to a dead link. | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | but realise that you are giving them the crumbs to follow and that because you are kind hearted pretty much; you are specifically *not* explaining yourself to them because they have no such claim over you, nor can they have it | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, you can always send them to my logger that is fine and well ofc; but anyways, yes, I'd wait a bit for now to get out of the pizmess first, one way or another | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: up to you really but note that 1. no opportunity lasts forever 2. busy may be at one time or another, but can't quite last for days on end (or you have a very serious problem with your own time management there) | [12:35] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: concerning China, I'm going to ask for some research this week, the result being a list of mainland China based Bitcoin focused blogs with specific, named authors. | [12:35] |
| rekt_: | I have a very rigid daily program | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: for that matter why not ask re irc/equivalent networks/chans; I have no idea exactly what they have in there | [12:36] |
| rekt_: | breakfast, gym, food, study 20 languages, food, work, gym, food, sleep | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: and so if/when opportunity knocks on your door you say "I have no time because I have a very rigid program" ? | [12:37] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: *some* slack time has to be part of the most rigid program too; for that matter you are still human, not a robot | [12:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: the thought occurred to look for China based IRC networks. I will inquire there as well. This may require some education on the part of my contact. | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | I mean: it sounds like a very strong will and all that, hopefully it also works well for you; but still. | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: ^ is for you. | [12:39] |
| rekt_: | Yes I don't have time for a relationship | [12:39] |
| rekt_: | Been single for 20 heads | [12:39] |
| rekt_: | 20 years * | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: uhm, if that's your worry, put it to rest, lolz. | [12:39] |
| rekt_: | My life is about long term plan | [12:40] |
| rekt_: | if what is my worry? | [12:40] |
| rekt_: | How weak is a person who complains about the fact | [12:40] |
| rekt_: | Vs a person who sees it as a fact and remains like I am, unaffected? | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: if your worry here is geting into a relationship ie time-eating | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: neah, you got the wrong end of the stick there, simmer down. | [12:41] |
| rekt_: | Read my last message | [12:41] |
| rekt_: | Maybe you're confused about my personal strength | [12:41] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: no, I have no idea about your personal strength; but you are talking to your own strawmen there, not to what I said. | [12:41] |
| rekt_: | I addressed my capacity for facing reality, but you insist I am worried | [12:42] |
| rekt_: | Not sure what I'd be worried about | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: not at all, no | [12:42] |
| rekt_: | My only concern is my long term goal | [12:42] |
| rekt_: | Peace out triggered snowflake trumpets | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | lolz. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | can't argue with a man on a very rigid plan, what. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | studying 20 languages but being utterly unable to communicate; takes the whole modern autism to another level. | [12:54] |
| bvt: | tbh that sounded a lot like cat-v to me | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: how/why's that? | [12:59] |
| bvt: | he insisted on this 'life = long-term plans', but was not really communicating with anyone | [13:01] |
| bvt: | i immediately rememebered one case of mp entering some cat-v-derived channel, with their insistence on 'authority = send us patches', but also not communicating, just repeating the mantra | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: in principle single-minded focus to the extreme; he was *very* triggered by some impression that "not strong" though | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | ah, but that "just repeating the mantra" is precisely the "modern day autism" I mentioned; you'll meet it already if you just say something "out of script" to whatever employee | [13:04] |
| diana_coman: | the multiple lulz here is that he claimed he focused on studying languages of all things; but other than that it's very common really; this "word x -> reply y", no meaning involved, no person really, just an automaton repeating – as you say – mantras | [13:05] |
| bvt: | well, getting easily triggered seems to be highly individual, but extreme singular focus is what distiguishes cat-v for me | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I fished him out of some oftc sad&deserted chan that wasn't however cat-v; can't even recall exactly which one, I did a foray in thimbronion's selection of networks the other day | [13:07] |
| bvt: | looks like one of the manalone 'evolution' direction, should be plenty in all fields (languages or saving unix); and i also wonder, he did not even say what he needs 20 languages for? | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: iirc he said something (possibly before coming here) re travelling the world and making money out of vlogging | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | and sure, in all fields; but learning languages while avoiding communication is so …divorced of reality that I don't yet have full words for it really. | [13:12] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Is there further instruction on how to proceed with plans/reviews? | [23:14] |
#ossasepia Logs for 06 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [09:30] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 20h 30m | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: you still around? | [09:34] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion, shrysr, lobbes use the IP directly for younghands.club (ie 161.0.121.247 ) as the DNS server's IP for the site is currently down | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | given the mess, the deadline for the plans+reviews moves one day later than usual though none of you said anything about it so far. | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | when I say "use the IP directly" I mean add it to your /etc/hosts file | [17:26] |
| diana_coman: | ie a line in /etc/hosts like this: 161.0.121.247 younghands.club | [17:27] |
| rekt_: | привет | [19:36] |
| rekt_: | diana_coman: yes | [19:36] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: ack re: ip | [19:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ack | [21:11] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: This is as far as I was able to get with the time I had over the weekend. I've added bracketed comments to note where I know more work is necessary. My blog is not accessible so I've pasted the markdown formatted version here: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=AkTJ | [21:34] |
#ossasepia Logs for 05 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you see, it *already* helped, as you found out what a summary should be, at the very least! | [05:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you are on the right track there but you need to go in more detail too. | [05:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what is a review? | [05:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re "what is a summary", think of it this way: 1. any piece of text is an investigation of a topic (if it's not this, then it's not really text, merely noise) | [09:48] |
| diana_coman: | 2. as any investigation, it has to look at the chosen topic from some perspective(s) | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | 3. it has some scope (ie what it covers and what it doesn't cover) and some chosen level of detail | [09:50] |
| diana_coman: | 4. the investigation itself has some antecedents, it can make some assumptions (ideally stated), it can reference other things | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | but in any case, it flows from some starting point to some conclusion, ideally allowing the reader to follow the newly made bridge/path | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | as a reader, your duty is to take in and evaluate the path itself while being also aware of what it leaves out/avoids/doesn't take into account | [09:54] |
| diana_coman: | now with all the above on the table, making a summary reduces to compressing this same path so that instead of 100 steps, it takes only 50 or 25 to get from same starting point to same ending and without missing any of the crucial points along the way | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | conversely, expanding a text would mean taking smaller steps on that same road, stopping as it were to consider matters along the way in more detail | [09:56] |
| diana_coman: | so text, summary and expansion share a starting point (with all its characteristics so more like a starting *place*), a chosen path (out of all possible ones) and a conclusion but they differ in how quickly one travels from A to B ie how much non-crucial detail is present | [09:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there are texts so concise that you can't really summarise them any further e.g. the famous short story "For sale: baby shoes, never worn" | [10:01] |
| diana_coman: | but at any rate and at all times, writing a good summary requires that you first fully grasp not only what are the starting and ending points + what is said in between but also what is crucial for the argument and what not. | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | furthermore, a chosen number of words total works a bit like "zoom level" when you take a photograph really: you should be able to present the same argument at different levels of detail. | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | when/if you go at it only locally e.g. "summarizing each paragraph", you are effectively focusing on the proverbial trees instead of the forest and for one thing the result is at best unbalanced (usually disjointed as is the case with your original summary) | [10:08] |
| diana_coman: | for the other thing, such local-summary approach is extremely limiting; in some sense it's falling for local minima/maxima instead of overall minima/maxima. | [10:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what is the role of paragraphs in a text? | [10:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I probably don't actually know what a review is, but I have it in my head as something like a summary but with judgement. | [10:30] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: a review is an assessment really so you effectively compare some instance of a thing (your summary) to the definition (what a summary should be) and highlight what/where it fits & what/where it fails short + why/in what way. | [10:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I never clearly understood the role of paragraphs in a text. They kind of seem arbitrary to me. | [10:35] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: aha, it ties in with wtf are they teaching in school really; after role of punctuation, the very next step is role of paragraphs | [10:36] |
| thimbronion: | Obviously reading a wall of text without paragraph sucks. | [10:36] |
| diana_coman: | a paragraph is meant to deal with ONE idea | [10:37] |
| diana_coman: | basically when you move on/introduce another idea (note that this can be on different levels too), you start a new paragraph | [10:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: in this sense an initial summary of anything can be made simply by writing ONE single sentence for each paragraph in the original text ie writing down that one idea of each paragraph | [10:38] |
| diana_coman: | obviously, if the original writer can write sanely | [10:38] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Oct-2019#1004626 << noticing what is left out or avoided has always been a problem for me. | [10:40] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-05 09:54:22 diana_coman: as a reader, your duty is to take in and evaluate the path itself while being also aware of what it leaves out/avoids/doesn't take into account | [10:40] |
| diana_coman: | well, the negative spaces, the things around; but I can see why it might be a problem for you as you focus on the details and therefore don't quite get to view the whole -> can't see what's missing, ofc. Anyways, one step at a time, you'll get there, once you can at least see & summarise clearly what IS said | [10:42] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I had a thought re: the IRC Takeover. I wonder how amenable some admins might be to selling their irc servers? In otherwords, why not buy in? The downside is that you get a server with who knows what on it. The upside is you get: 1. Working, long standing configuratin 2. Relationship with hosting provider with a history of supporting IRC. | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the only way you would get what you say is if you talked to the admin, got him to register a key with deedbot and basically brought him into the republic | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | otherwise what you are buying is a piece of metal and someone else's hard-to-even-evaluate-properly commitments | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: talking to existing admins can be a good idea but only along the lines above ie wtf are you doing worshipping the idiots people, instead of joining the republic; fwiw I think it might be a harder sell because you effectively go empty-handed | [10:56] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: hm yeah. wth good does some server in germany do me if I can't freaking replace the 10 year old hdd. | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: it *may* be worth it to talk to them and see if any of them are sane, sure; but don't expect too much and especially don't do this *instead* of talking to the network admins themselves | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: not only that but also wth good does to you some working server if you have no idea how to fix/wtf even is wrong really it when it stops working | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | it's "working" only in the magical sense really | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's still bothering/troubling you re contacting the irc network admins already? | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re your question on http://thewhet.net/2013/09/your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/comment-page-1/#comment-55392 – you are confusing the contexts there (or not really making a proper separation at all); read http://ossasepia.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ and see if that answers it for you; if it doesn't, ask me again. | [11:03] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: 1. I don't want to mess things up by saying the wrong thing. 2. I am persuaded that they're going to say, "Didn't you read the link application? Fill it out and send to black hole email address and stop bothering us." | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: 1. don't say the wrong thing, no; note that the "wrong thing" is something other than what was discussed e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Oct-2019#1004582 | [11:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-04 12:59:53 diana_coman: thimbronion: read it now; gives the full context to my summary of the position here, doesn't it? | [11:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: 2. realise that there isn't a direct link between this and 1; | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you do *not* care about what "they are going to say" | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you should focus on your message; let *them* figure out what to say and if they come up with nonsense, that's their shame and loss, you'll write the blog post with it and so it stays | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | but the important part is to be very clear as to what you say; | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ignore them entirely for a bit; are you clear & sure of what you are offering there & what you want from them? | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: think of it this way: if I go to a cow, tell it something and it moos back, do you think it mood because I told it "the wrong thing"? | [11:14] |
| thimbronion: | I am offering to save their network from a slow death by bringing them into the republic, which, though small, is growing, while they are shrinking bit by bit. And if they believe in why they founded their network (to talk about whatever the fuck the want without being bothered) then obviously they have to let us join their network. | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | "if only you'd told the cow how beautiful it is, it would have answered with a gracious thank you" or what. | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there is no "let us", no | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | you need to work a bit more on your own position there | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | needs to go afk for a bit, will bbl | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you read the log of the freenode-idiocy re won't federate ? | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | it was in eulora chan and linked from MP's comment | [13:05] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I was going to ask for that | [13:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/eulora/2017-10-01#964962 | [13:08] |
| baitbot: | (eulora) 2017-10-01 mircea_popescu: hello kline | [13:08] |
| snsabot: | (eulora) 2017-10-01 mircea_popescu: hello kline | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | there is a bit earlier from the #freenode channel but the meat is there in #eulora | [13:09] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ty | [13:10] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I can't find the continuation of the hosting thread. It appears they were open to the donation of hardware, but I can't find where it went wrong. Everything seemed to be progressing up through the last line I found from kline. | [13:33] |
| thimbronion: | And holy shit mp was so freaking polite and reasonable. | [13:35] |
| thimbronion: | Reminds me of Caesar's Gallic Wars. | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you have to realise that the breaking point is *never* because "impolite" or "unreasonable" | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | the impolite – if it ever comes to it – is already an effect of some stubborn idiocy manifested by the other party really | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there doesn't seem to be specific log, here's what MP said: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-05#1940684 | [13:52] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-05 mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i offered them a server back in 2011 ; and then throughout cca 2014. they never took me up on it, and eventually sold out to usg agency | [13:52] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: So it appears in this case they didn't even bother to reject, just left on read. | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you can be as polite or impolite as you want really; and you can even make concessions as you think appropriate, *except* on the important parts | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | that's after all the whole diplomacy thing | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | but that's why I say that you need first 1. to be clear in your own mind re what is important and why 2. to know exactly your position and don't let yourself swayed by whatever they moo at you | [13:55] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I believe I am clear on the importance and why. As you said I need to work on knowing my position. | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | as an overall, minimum thing: you go in with a statement and a request; they can challenge you on the statement (ie why do you think tmsr is greater than us?) at which point (and only THEN) you answer the challenge | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | they can then/alternatively refuse the request, do whatever, but that is ON THEM | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | basically stand up tall, you have all tmsr behind you, it's not like you go there man-alone, at all. | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | and you don't need to even find reasons *for them* | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | depending on your own style and inclination, you can decide to humour or not whatever local customs as long as they don't go against fundamentals, sure | [13:58] |
| diana_coman: | you are however effectively extending them a lifeline whether they know it or not, whether they accept it or not, whatever; it is up to them to figure out that it's in their interest to accept; they may fail of that, sure, fine. | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [14:01] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: updated review: https://pste.eu/p/XwNN.html. I will be afk for pretty much the rest of the day. | [14:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: use paste.deedbot not whatever random shit | [14:39] |
| diana_coman: | with https too ffs | [14:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. | [14:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: also, if you go away dunno, why are you posting it or how is this supposed to work? | [14:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I thought I could read your comments in here and respond later. | [14:41] |
| diana_coman: | mk; paste it. | [14:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Rtew | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the problem IS very much with the text itself ; the process aka "how it was produced" is the root cause, sure, but that doesn't mean that you got there a great summary ffs | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | and nobody cares about how "difficult it is for" you, really | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | that has no place whatsoever in a review of a text; it's also doubly lulzy in the context given the very topic of the summary (the original text you were meant to summarize) | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | ie: your feelings on the matter are irrelevant to the task at hand; | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you should already have the answers to those questions by now so put them in | [14:51] |
| diana_coman: | and they should probably be at the start really | [14:51] |
| diana_coman: | ie you fucked up the process and that's the root cause, fine; start with noting that and fixing it; then look at the damned summary and see how it stands (rather: fails) on its own, both overall and bit by bit | [14:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: for that matter, if you really want to whine about how difficult it is for you, go ahead and write another post with all the complains on the matter | [14:54] |
| diana_coman: | I'll even read it, sure | [14:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: given the time I have left today and tomorrow, and the amount of additional work required on this piece, there is a good chance I'm not going to have something acceptable by EOD Sunday. | [14:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, you'll publish whatever you have by then. | [15:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re "from memory" note that there is no hard requirement as such to not look at the original at all when writing the summary or something; the point is that by the time you actually comprehend a text you will inevitably know the main points indeed but other than this banal observation, nobody stops you from consulting the original as much as/whenever needed. | [16:12] |
| diana_coman: | and indeed, especially when you lack experience, you might need to go back and check at least, if nothing else. | [16:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | !Qlater tell whaack Feel free to try giving your picture uploads another shot | [16:33] |
#ossasepia Logs for 04 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:19] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 20h 30m | [03:19] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: html list is simply <ol> <li> one list item </li> <li> another list item </li> </ol> | [04:08] |
| diana_coman: | so you can ofc move items about with copy/paste | [04:08] |
| diana_coman: | just use the html editor like literate people already | [04:08] |
| diana_coman: | the "wysiwg" is for the guinea pigs and the illiterate pretty much | [04:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you have a comment from MP in mod-queue on your blog, approve it so I can see it too, lol. | [07:27] |
| whaack_travel: | Hello from Tokyo. This makes you feel like you're in a videogame. Seoul review is in the oven. | [07:54] |
| whaack_travel: | This place* | [07:54] |
| whaack_travel: | heads back out into videogame world. | [07:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: heh, have fun! | [08:55] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [10:11] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 3h 21m | [10:11] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: mp's comment is up. As well as someone named "Fuck" who uses Google. | [10:47] |
| diana_coman: | lol! I'll have a look; but first need to sort out bot-isp-trouble. | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: read it now; gives the full context to my summary of the position here, doesn't it? | [12:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 17:30:35 diana_coman: but after all, the situation is precisely this: we want to move away from freenode and we have the resources to stand up our own server; we think network X is sensible and won't turn down some additional resources, so how about they link our server ? | [12:59] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes it does. | [13:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as to the Fuck guy, lolz, he worked hard to tell you no; such dedication really. | [13:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am very grateful for his efforts! | [13:03] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I currently have a pile of consulting tasks. I will respond to your and mp's comments later today. | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | works. | [13:07] |
| diana_coman: | hi rekt_ | [16:09] |
| diana_coman: | what are you studying? | [16:09] |
| rekt_: | linguistics | [16:12] |
| rekt_: | 24/7/365 endevour | [16:12] |
| diana_coman: | ha; how's that 24/7/365? | [16:13] |
| rekt_: | most of my time and energy goes to it | [16:13] |
| rekt_: | hence, that's why | [16:13] |
| rekt_: | except for sleeping, gym, eating, work, etc | [16:13] |
| rekt_: | constantly improving my study system | [16:13] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: interesting; look at the topic of this chan, there's that deed there, can you read the text of the deed? | [16:14] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: so why "geeks" and not "linguists"? do you work/use on any specific project? | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter re linguistics, I'd say there might quite an interesting change brought in by blogs-as-actual-medium ; there's this thread from #trilema for instance: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930351 | [16:20] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-08-23 diana_coman: tbh with categories also I start wondering if it's working at all or in fact it's still tags more useful anyway, without the pretense of neat and strict classification | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | (if you follow the link there's a longer discussion) | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: I have to go awk atm but hang around and read about, we might talk some more in a few hours/tomorrow | [16:21] |
| rekt_: | yes my project is to master linguistics in 20 languages | [17:01] |
| rekt_: | for starters | [17:02] |
| rekt_: | this is associated with a broader long-term plan | [17:02] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Oct-2019#1004569 << I am familiar with html lists, however the generated html is a mess and not worth the time to manually fix. My old blog used markdown, which I much prefer to either wysiwyg or html. Hunting down missing or out of order close tags moves me closer to log cabin status very quickly. In the future I will compose lists elsewhere. | [17:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-04 04:08:32 diana_coman: thimbronion: html list is simply <ol> <li> one list item </li> <li> another list item </li> </ol> | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: so what's the broader long-term plan? | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as long as you don't end up with "can't move items around", it's fine. | [18:05] |
| rekt_: | sort of like, go abroad, and vlog etc | [18:46] |
| rekt_: | with being paid cash thrown in there, as the main driver | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: well, can't beat bitcoin for being paid cash really | [19:04] |
| diana_coman: | rekt_: where in the world do you live anyway? | [19:04] |
| diana_coman: | waves at baitbot | [19:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: here is a draft of my review of my summary: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=x7yl. Am I on the right track with this? As I write in the review, it's difficult to review something you don't know how to do properly. | [20:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 'baitbot' is mine. experimental disproof of the 'irc ddos bot' notion. | [20:41] |
#ossasepia Logs for 03 Oct 2019
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:33] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 23h 27m | [03:33] |
| diana_coman: | !o help | [06:53] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen | [06:53] |
| diana_coman: | !o version | [06:53] |
| ossabot: | I am bot version 597604. | [06:53] |
| auctionbot: | B#1061 O=161mn LB=151mn E=2019-10-03 05:55:34.297573 (5h55) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred | [08:49] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 151mn total bids — | [08:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: how did you order that list of irc networks? the top100 from netsplit.de seems different (possibly changed since you looked but seems rather unlikely to have changed that much) | [09:55] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman I've been working on them from top to bottom according to the source, but I haven't explicitly tried to keep them in any order. Last night I was considering at least putting them in order of number of servers, with those having linking applications available at the the top. | [11:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: makes sense. | [12:02] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw that oftc thing seems quite approachable, from among the "big" ones | [12:02] |
| thimbronion: | I recall Undernet seeming approachable as well. EsperNet also looked good, but it is on the smaller end at 12 servers. | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you need number of servers vs users I'd say ie number of servers by itself is not telling much | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | maybe they need more servers because they have too few or something | [12:17] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ah yes that makes sense. | [12:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so maybe order the list based on what you think ie "seems most likely to accept my server" | [12:18] |
| diana_coman: | once you have at least a few that seem on first pass as a possible option, we can go in and talk to them. | [12:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: so should I finish researching the remaining 65 or do an ordering now and start talking to people? | [12:21] |
| thimbronion: | or both… | [12:21] |
| thimbronion: | It's quite an archeological dig. Most website findings are at the mid 2000s layer. | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: if you have already a few (2-4 at least) that seem in the least approachable, just connect to them first and look around and then start talking to them; let me know what/which ones you picked and I can come in too if it helps | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, looking at the list does reveal lots of "dead but listed" pretty much | [13:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: fixed today ugly bugola in reader.py ( thrd here ) | [13:22] |
| snsabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-03 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! logotron www updated ! | [13:22] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: aite, I'll manually change it for now. | [13:23] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman | [13:24] |
| asciilifeform: | i really must get rid of the positional print statements in that thing | [13:25] |
| asciilifeform: | they're nuffin but trouble. ( instead string concats like normal people ) | [13:25] |
| diana_coman: | should be on, let me know if you see any weird | [13:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: loox proper. | [13:26] |
| asciilifeform: | only lobbes nao remains w/ the barf, i expect he'll fix when wakes up. | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re continuing the list – in principle it's worth doing anyway because you'll need it later in any case; but it can be done at a slower pace/don't need to wait for it to be complete before starting talking to them | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and where "archaeological", write it as a note "not updated since 2012" or whatever | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | the point is: document the thing; here we looked at all sorts and this is what was found. | [13:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 1 moar thing, i have an autosyncer, but wrote it while ill, so to avoid similar headaches will post it 1ce fully alive | [13:31] |
| asciilifeform: | ( semi-auto, to be pedantic. takes a cutoff point; drops errything in all chans after that point; then walks list of e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com , http://logs.ossasepia.com , fetches errything in all chans from each, then eats ~the longest~ ) | [13:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ok. Perhaps it makes sense add some documentation discussing the general quality of the results at the beginning of the post and also add a "notes" line to each entry? | [13:33] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this aint ideal — i can picture cases where it cannot be used , if multiple bots dropped at various times — but beats the shit outta manual munging | [13:34] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: sounds good, yes. | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: sure, I'll have a look when you post it but take your time. | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re longest, I'd say it should prolly look at a diff or similar though because in some cases one might need a mixture of them, ugh | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | tbh at resync time the usual headache is when/if lines are missed in the middle ie need to drop some & then update; but anyways, as starter it's better than nothing, for sure | [13:46] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this is correct, and in fact is moar serious, from mathematical pov, problem , than appears at 1st glance | [16:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: my draft semi-auto syncer simply asks for a tuple chan,line that represents the point of break; then takes its timestamp, drops ~everything~ in db that postdates that time; then proceeds to algo described earlier. | [16:05] |
| asciilifeform: | ( there is no attempt to mathematically derive the 'holes', it will work strictly if one of the N given peers contains the complete log from T to present time ) | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | if the proggy were built into bot, there would — in theory — be no need to do the drop, it could run as part of the reconnector sequence. however it is impossible to rule out the possibility that a line is spoken ~while~ the syncer syncs. therefore i'ma leave it as a manual crank for the foreseeable future. | [16:07] |
| asciilifeform: | fwiw i suspect that this mechanism will be obsolete when we get sumthing like a irc net going. | [16:07] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: there is 1 potential point of danger re the described syncer — if the 'break line' chosen was ~itself~ imported from another bot, it may result in unwanted droppage ( there is no guarantee of monotonicity of timestamps except as written by ~one particular~ bot, atm ) | [16:09] |
| asciilifeform: | i'm thinking of having it display the lines to be dropped, and prompt, prior to firing, atm cannot think of a cleaner pill. | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | if anyone wants to follow this particular thread, the discussion of proposed sync is in #trilema as it belongs better there. | [16:30] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-03 asciilifeform: folx w/ mathematical inclinations, invited to comment re auto-sync algo described in #o . | [16:30] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 15:46:07 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is correct, and in fact is moar serious, from mathematical pov, problem , than appears at 1st glance | [16:30] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: when it comes to speaking with server admins on IRC, I am not sure what approach to take. From looking at most applications, linkers appear to be in the position of having to sell themselves, and I admit that sales is a field in which I have much to learn. | [16:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: alternatively, I could just approach it from an information gathering perspective. "Hi, is there any interest in new servers, what are the chances of the application being accepted, etc." | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: we are not really selling anything given that they aren't paying, you know? | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | we are offering them a chance; they are free to be idiots and miss out on it, just like freenode did | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: but yes, I know you aren't yet clear on this part yet | [16:43] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: this is true. And this being true, I find their attitude perplexing. | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and no, don't approach them begging/probing because you won't be able to get out of that initial framing | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | and it's not helping | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: their attitude is their problem, really; it's perplexing only if you look at it with some pre-conceived expectations really | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | so don't; you focus on what *you* offer and otherwise let the rest of the world figure out for themselves what they are going to do about it and how they are going to handle it | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | if they handle it idiotically fine, it's their loss anyway. | [16:45] |
| thimbronion: | Many, many Bob Becks. | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | plus you get clear proof that they are idiots, what. | [16:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: May I convey myself as representing tbf? | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: let me know what networks you choose, maybe dig out the old freenode-managed-to-reject-server thing too , for some idea | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: tbf is currently on a rather unclear footing really, not sure how that helps; you *are* representing TMSR | [16:48] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: however, before asking them re federating server, the first step is to just join some chans and look around, read for a bit | [16:50] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Got it. The few chans I've joined so far have been almost completely dead for days. | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: I suspect that's extremely true for…most of them, myeah | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | what networks did you join? | [16:52] |
| thimbronion: | IRCNet and p2p-net. | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: looking at your list, I see undernet, dalnet, ircnet, oftc, europnet maybe | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | iirc there was efnet mentioned too, though I don't see it in your list | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | europnet supposedly aims specifically to "integrate across europe" so it would be particularly lulzy if they …refuse to integrate | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what software are you going to run? how well do you know it? do you have any experience with it? | [16:57] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes I need to re-add and document EFNet. I beleive I couldn't find the linking application or linking was discouraged, but as I said I will add it in with documentation. | [16:59] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: which software? IRC client or IRC server? | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the server; you'll need to run it and in time bridge it to other networks supposedly, no? | [17:00] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I haven't made that determination. I ran my own ircd years ago, but I don't recall which and I was pretty much the only person using it. So my experience is almost nil. The quickest (though perhaps not wisest) approach would be to run the server of the first network that allows us to link. | [17:04] |
| thimbronion: | Then later select perhaps the most robust irc server (what the criteria for that would be I don't yet know) and start that running and then build the bridge from the network's custom ircd to our own. | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the thing is that you are in a much better position to talk to them if you already actually have your server basically | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | ie I have this server and chans and people, active unlike your shit, do you federate my server or should I find others? | [17:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I recall many applications requiring that you run their own custom server. | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and given how ~dead they seem in general + what passes for "awesome software solutions" nowadays, I half-expect "their custom ircd" to not even run on a sane tmsr environment | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that's still rather 2nd consideration as far as I see it; ie you already have something and are reaching out; they can then require all sorts and you'll consider | [17:08] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: related: I was able to build DALNet's ircd, but haven't run it yet. | [17:08] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: also many networks want you to run ntpd | [17:09] |
| thimbronion: | speaking of sanity | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the point is: don't let apparent requests deter you upfront anyway; but to be able to talk to them from a proper position, you do need to know very well what you are running there and what you are willing to do or not; but let *them* ask if they want some nonsense, anyway | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so why not run that dalnet ircd anyway? | [17:12] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: it has the size of dalnet going for it. | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter not even sure – how would they exactly check that you are running "their ircd"? | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you know, the trouble with "size of dalnet" is pretty much the trouble with "1mn unique visitors" on blogs | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | ie sure, numbers; whether they add up however to any real activity is still dubious | [17:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: according to the applications, there is a 1 week or whatever link evaluation period | [17:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't know what kind of evaluating happens though | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: eh, so let them evaluate and if anything speak up, etc | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, not yet there | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | the point is: you *will* need to get to know that software, whatever you pick | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | so if you want to pick dalnet's, on whatever ground, fine; if you want to pick something else, fine; | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | but in any case, you'll need to *bridge* it | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | so avoiding this in the 1st step is not really earning you anything | [17:15] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: So let's say I build the bridge first. How do I test it "in wartime conditions"? I guess I would need to run my own copy of whatever other network's ircd somewhere else and test against it, and perhaps write some bots to do stress testing. | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: first you pick and stand up some ircd; then you go as representative of tmsr and armed with all the logs re activity + chans + users and talk to networks, see which one is saner; they can come with all sorts of requests but you can consider them first, it's not like you have to do anything they ask | [17:20] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok, understood. | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re testing in wartime conditions – this is valid for anything anyway ie if you want to do proper testing upfront, you still need the whole orchestra, no/ | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | alternatively, you can say well, there's no wartime-testing better than the war itself and plunge in but no idea how hairy it can/may get; I don't really have experience running ircd | [17:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: does that make sense? is there some bit/part that you'd rather approach differently (how)? | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: for that matter re testing, after standing up ircd, you mirror the tmsr chans here with the help of existing loggers for instance | [17:26] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: when you say "logs re activity + chans + users" are the the logs etc of the targeted network, or our own? | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: our own; I doubt they even have logs, do they? | [17:28] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: initially I though I was to log some of their most active channels, etc. to have own record of the size/activity on the selected network. | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | but after all, the situation is precisely this: we want to move away from freenode and we have the resources to stand up our own server; we think network X is sensible and won't turn down some additional resources, so how about they link our server ? | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ah, no; I doubt that's any use really | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | you know, that list of requirements and so on is mostly for you to do an initial filtering of the most obviously-idiotic; but otherwise let *them* point you at it and request whatever; you have the stuff and make them an offer, that's about it | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | and obv, you'll blog the result either way. | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: does this clear up a bit the "not sales" part at least | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | ? | [17:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Sorry for the delay, trying to restate in own words. | [17:36] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: actully, nm: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Oct-2019#1004538 sums it up quite well. | [17:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 17:30:35 diana_coman: but after all, the situation is precisely this: we want to move away from freenode and we have the resources to stand up our own server; we think network X is sensible and won't turn down some additional resources, so how about they link our server ? | [17:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: so yes, this makes sense. | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: good; ask/speak up if there is/appears later anything else that doesn't make full sense to you because you do need to have a very clear idea of it before you can successfully talk about it, ofc | [17:39] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok, I will. | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re ircd, it's really up to you re version or whatever but honestly, I'd rather choose the smallest/most minimal thing to start with, just to be able to figure it out | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | iirc it's supposed to be modular so in principle you can add to it as needed? | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | doesn't know ircd in any real detail | [17:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I, too, do not yet know ircd or the protocol itself in much detail. Small minimal makes sense from that perspective. If it turns out it's missing something every network seems to need, we can re-evaluate or add to the bridge. | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: dunno if that irc services thing is of any use/interest/maybe help still; e.g. achurch.org/services/docs-5.1.24/tech/5.html | [17:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: noted, thankyou. I will review it. | [17:52] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-03#1004552 << last time i picked up the subj (ftr broke teeth) found that most (all?) of the major nets use some nonstandard 'embrace&extend' crock of shit, rather than irc per strict rfc-specsheet. (which is not to say that cannot be sewn w/ skilled hands. simply, may not suffice to 'just pick a ircd' naively) | [19:21] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 17:25:49 diana_coman: doesn't know ircd in any real detail | [19:21] |
| asciilifeform: | in some cases may be possible to 'cheat' and stick to rfc-traditional protocol. ( as i did in re client vs fleanode. i refused to use fleanode's proprietary knob for confirming success of joining chans, instead simply inserted delay ) | [19:22] |
| asciilifeform: | ( represented by 'join_t' knob in bot config ) | [19:23] |
| asciilifeform: | fwiw tho, mp's orig. proposal was to obtain whatever ircd was distributed by ea. heathen net, and patch'em to interoperate together after. | [19:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ( if any of these prove egregiously broken, can simply omit that one ) | [19:28] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 16:51:36 diana_coman: thimbronion: and given how ~dead they seem in general + what passes for "awesome software solutions" nowadays, I half-expect "their custom ircd" to not even run on a sane tmsr environment | [19:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | Deedbot hasn't given me a challenge to decrypt for voice yet. Datacenter has been contacted | [22:38] |
| asciilifeform: | all chans synced as of nao. | [22:39] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Oct-2019#1004511 << Correction – I built Undernet's ircd. | [23:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-03 17:08:53 thimbronion: diana_coman: related: I was able to build DALNet's ircd, but haven't run it yet. | [23:25] |
#ossasepia Logs for 02 Oct 2019
| lobbes: | diana_coman: ossabot fell down btw | [00:43] |
| shrysr: | thimbronion: ty for reminding me. i've updated that post and will get around to the remaining older posts over the next few days. Reason: somewhere around that point – https was removed.. i.e all my blog links will work if you use http. apologise for the inconvenience. | [01:08] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Oct-2019#1004363 – this is fine for usual work but *not* for problems of this sort; even with problems you need to discriminate, which ones can wait and which ones can't; you know, if it was non-wot blog, I would just stop commenting there entirely. | [03:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-01 19:05:17 thimbronion: diana_coman: also, the optimal times for me to do dev work outside of my consulting work are Sat./Sun. mornings, so something like patching my blog I would usually save for that time. | [03:22] |
| diana_coman: | so no, don't save fixing front-line shit for when it's convenient, that's a very poor strategy. | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Oct-2019#1004369 – Japan, the land of head-banging and furiously effective body-scrubbing; not bad for a first visit. | [03:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-01 23:53:05 whaack_travel: diana_coman: done! http://ztkfg.com/2019/10/kyoto-japan/ | [03:34] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Oct-2019#1004370 – yes, it got stuck on idiotic error; I'll have to try bvt's fix for this. | [03:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-02 00:43:56 lobbes: diana_coman: ossabot fell down btw | [03:35] |
| diana_coman: | might as well add it here too, since it's one of those "front-line trouble, needs sorted *now*, can't wait until it's convenient": http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-02#1939618 | [04:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-02 04:07:18 diana_coman: and deployed; ossabot now running with bvt's fix for socket-trouble. | [04:08] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw no, manually resync of bots, manually applying fixes and doing redeploy first thing in the morning is not convenient at all. | [04:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that irc networks lists is not bad for a start; see comment. | [04:18] |
| auctionbot: | B#1061 O=161mn LB=161mn E=2019-10-01 11:55:34.297573 (11h55) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred | [08:49] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 161mn total bids — | [08:49] |
| auctionbot: | B#1061 O=161mn LB=161mn E=2019-10-02 05:55:34.297573 (5h55) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred | [08:49] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 161mn total bids — | [08:49] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [09:16] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 5h 10m | [09:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: can you clarify the distinction between normal and front-line tasks for me? Also, what is the standard for republican blog functionality? | [11:45] |
| thimbronion: | shrysr: ty! | [11:52] |
| thimbronion: | I will be afk a lot today so apologies in advance if I am slow to respond. | [11:57] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: this would be the standard for republican blog functionality | [12:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: concrete details re normal vs front-line can be given in specific contexts really, not generically like that; the generic rule would be front-line = problems that get in other people's way really; those need to be addressed asap but "addressed" may mean giving a clear schedule re fix | [12:08] |
| diana_coman: | your html-eating trouble got in the way of *all* people who wanted perhaps to comment there and moreover it also had a potentially huge cost for you | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | ie not fixing it quickly meant for sure losing information (at the very least the actual links) + potentially losing commenters in the long run + getting a bad rep too, hence the "it's a very poor strategy" | [12:11] |
| diana_coman: | so at the very least there should have been a "sorry people, I'll get around to fix this by Saturday, meanwhile please comment in chan and I'll add them there" + a notice on the blog or something | [12:12] |
| diana_coman: | but do note that every time you ask people to wait, that part has a cost too so you get to decide on what it's worth it and on what it's not (usually, if it's easy enough to fix, you are better off just doing it, no matter how inconvenient) | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you just… vanish the irc-list post from your blog??? | [12:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I put it back in draft mode for further editing. | [13:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ugh, don't do that, no; once you published it, leave it there; update it afterwards (with marked "updated + date") but don't move it about | [13:59] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it's bad practice. publish errata instead. | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: what? | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | thimbronion: like e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3452 | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | he published as draft; a list that wasn't complete but on which he could use feedback | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | it's not exactly errata, no | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ah | [14:00] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: was commenting re 'dun delete posts', but you spoke faster, lol | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: if you just want my feedback on something, you can put it on paste.deedbot.org and ask me in chan; works that way too | [14:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ah ok yeah I like that approach. Would lack the formatting though. | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: dunno, you aimed at me "it's bad practice" so … | [14:03] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ah no, was for thimbronion | [14:03] |
| asciilifeform: | i mistyped. | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: eh, a few spaces are usually enough to make sense of it really | [14:04] |
| asciilifeform: | with stomach virus, firing on 1 cylinder, prolly oughta stay off the consolex01 | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: better take care of yourself, yes; and get well soon! | [14:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: overall, the important bit that you seem to have little practice with – despite what /how it might seem, you are not working alone (or not anymore). | [14:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am certainly not used to anyone giving a shit about my blog. I usually work on pretty big teams, but we use issue trackers to coordinate. | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the whole point of a blog though is to …communicate with others; so better use it like they are there anyway, regardless of what might seem, since 1. you can't really tell it, anyway 2. it's better to make good habits than bad habits, after all | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: hopefully you don't want to add issue trackers around here though. | [14:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't love them. | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | I have yet to meet a sane person who also loves issue trackers, indeed. | [14:24] |
#ossasepia Logs for 01 Oct 2019
| whaack_travel: | doesn't seem i can do a picture travel post until i get back. i tried to upload my pictures through the mpwp portal and it didn't work, and i can't scp from this work station. | [01:13] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: lolz; so do a text-only with "here should have been picture if me checked before going that everything works" | [03:47] |
| diana_coman: | and you'll fill in the pictures once you are back | [03:47] |
| jfw: | Morning diana_coman. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Sep-2019#1004301 – I've written them out, and done a couple rounds of that so I think the list is complete. Some I have answered to my satisfaction; some are indeed protection/avoidance; and some require further digging, for which I've reserved more time this week. | [04:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 08:16:08 diana_coman: jfw: where are you with exposing & doing something (any direction) about those lingering doubts? | [04:45] |
| jfw: | bbl (past bedtime here.) | [04:59] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [05:32] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 9d 15h 7m | [05:32] |
| diana_coman: | pats ossabotx01 | [05:32] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: all right. | [05:32] |
| diana_coman: | grrr thimbronion wtf are you doing with that html-eating blog of yours? | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | the last line in my comment read: Funnily enough, there IS an essence at work here but it's rather far than what the author thinks he's talking about. | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | you know, it's a known issue + solution and moreover I already pointed it out to you | [18:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 08:03:52 diana_coman: thimbronion: your blog strips away html tags, ugh; see the known php-version issue + fix | [18:10] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: working on it – searched logs then asked BingoBoingo in pizarro. He pointed me here: http://btcbase.org/patches/mp-wp_html-comments-regrind | [18:53] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: going apply that last patch soon | [18:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: also, the optimal times for me to do dev work outside of my consulting work are Sat./Sun. mornings, so something like patching my blog I would usually save for that time. | [19:05] |
| BingoBoingo: | thimbronion: "function() use (, ) {" is the line you want to correct to. | [19:10] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: seems to be fixed now: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/chief-analyst-of-guosen-securities-financial-industry-central-bank-rd-is-a-kind-of-digital-cash-not-a-digital-currency-independent-of-the-rmb/#comment-14 | [19:36] |
| thimbronion: | BingoBoingo: thx | [19:36] |
| thimbronion: | shrysr: The links to your blog don't work for me here: http://younghands.club/2019/08/19/week-5-review/ | [19:44] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: also fixed your comment. | [20:06] |
| whaack_travel: | diana_coman: done! http://ztkfg.com/2019/10/kyoto-japan/ | [23:53] |
#ossasepia Logs for 30 Sep 2019
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Also is there a specified format for weekly reviews? I have one in draft form here: http://younghands.club/?p=102&preview=true | [00:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the format is up to you but every Sunday there should be 1. a review of the previous week 2. a plan for the new week | [03:35] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004279 – hmmm, so you figured it out the next day but would have kept quiet and not update re deadline nor anything until when exactly? And why? | [03:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 20:08:59 whaack_travel: diana_coman: yes, i figured out the adapter problem the next day – i discovered my friend-of-friend had brought the same charger that did not have a third prong for ground. | [03:37] |
| whaack_travel: | diana_coman: i can't say how long i would have gone without giving an update on connection status and deadline had i not seen the "where's whaack?" question in chan, hopefully i would have given it yesterday anyways. i was out ~all day both Saturday and Sunday and went to bed shortly after i got home. but i should have popped in chan for a second and said that i had a connection and given a deadline update for you to appr | [04:47] |
| whaack_travel: | ove, i see it looks suspect saying "i have no power to my comp" and then not updating as soon as i did get power back. | [04:47] |
| whaack_travel: | and if i analyze my internal thought process there was an 'oh shit, i failed to my 2nd task by my deadline already, which seemed so simple – all i had to do was lay out my interests -, and my first one just "scraped by" i hope it's alright for it to sit on an indefinite deadline for a bit, although i know that is probably not okay' | [04:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: aha; and don't do this stupid shit with "if I got this barely right, might as well screw the next"; the opposite should apply "if I barely got away with this, should really do more on the next one" | [06:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: you know, there's a reason why I had initially set deadlines only for after you are back from the trip; your trouble with 2nd task is more related to your very poor evaluation of both effort required and time available, not as much with the task itself. | [06:34] |
| diana_coman: | but I'm always all for giving a man all the rope he needs to hang himself with, if that's his goal, anyways, sure. | [06:35] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: moving forward: 1. your new deadline for http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004282 is 13th of October; I'd rather you take your time and write it as detailed as it gets since it will do you good anyway. 2.do you still plan to post travel writings while you are there? | [06:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 20:34:04 whaack_travel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-27#1004110 << my updated deadline for this is 08/10/19. (two days after I leave JP) but i will try to get it out sooner should I get a chunk of downtime. | [06:43] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-27 09:21:42 whaack_travel: greetings from Japan. I am delayed with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003859 . I have two main problems (1) my laptop battery is about to die. they do not have holes for the 3rd ground plug here, so i have to resolve this issue. (2) I struggled to figure out how to structure my blog post. I came up with 5 main interests and then went into i) history of my involvement with that interest i | [06:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: your blog strips away html tags, ugh; see the known php-version issue + fix | [08:03] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that analysis v2 seems incomplete/cut out in places, what happened there? | [08:14] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: where are you with exposing & doing something (any direction) about those lingering doubts? | [08:16] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr, whaack_travel, thimbronion – I've updated the ratings for all of you; you should be able to see them with /msg deedbot !!reputation | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | you can all use feedbot now and I suggest you do use it to subscribe to RSS (posts+comments) at least for younghands.club if for nothing else; feedbot's manual is at http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/081-feedbot-manual.html and you can pm it anyway; commands for it start with !1 eg !1 help | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | it might be still the case that you can self-voice in #trilema as well (until the new voice model is deployed) but I suggest caution re talking there as it's way *less* permissive than talking in here. | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel and thimbronion : logically speaking you should make up your minds and rate me whatever you consider appropriate but since I'm not yet sure you even really get what the WoT is and how it works, this can still wait. | [10:57] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: thanks for the rating. I notice it says "pagebody." Is that a typo? I'm not complaining either way. | [11:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: it is a typo indeed, sorry. | [11:30] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the numbering of weeks is not very helpful by itself really; you can number them if you want to but use also the dates eg week 1 23-29 Sept 2019 | [11:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: will you get to publish today the concrete plan for this week? | [11:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ok. Is dates only fine then? | [11:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: dates only works, sure | [11:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes re: concrete plan. | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | good | [11:55] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Sep-2019#1004300 << iirc was going to add something along the lines of 'I'm not yet as good as I wd like to be', or there is room to improve and forgot to complete the line. The only other issue I see is that the points are not numbered right, lost in export from emacs to WP – both are now updated. | [14:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 08:14:59 diana_coman: shrysr: that analysis v2 seems incomplete/cut out in places, what happened there? | [14:22] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ah, ok; then I'll read it if you say it's complete. | [14:23] |
| shrysr: | re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/30/week-12-plan-sep-30-oct-6/#comment-35 :- the focus split problem was discussed and also established that job search is urgent. Also mentioned (among other things) were [http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1003038][plans and | [14:33] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 17:47:01 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001234 << yea. the crisis is averted. However, as we've been discussing, or i've been ranting since yesterday …focus split (1) (2) (3) is the problem. one sec, i will share a litttle diag to show you example. | [14:33] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 13:44:27 diana_coman: shrysr: that sounds like "more urgent", not necessarily "worse", ahem. | [14:33] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 18:22:32 shrysr: well – as such it is a continuous process sure, but once the baseline profile + company + contact list is established – then its not gonna be terribly time consuming per se is my thought… The point was more that – i push to establish above base – and use the lul period of pre-christmas to work on projects instead, …continue shooting out apps, but only spend extra time on interesting | [14:33] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 17:18:20 diana_coman: shrysr: anyways, meanwhile there's still neither answer to http://younghands.club/2019/09/02/week-7-review/#comment-18 nor the task list ; I gather the mine-work is at least out of crisis but that's about it. | [14:33] |
| shrysr: | potential timelines] of crystallizing the skill deficit list and to figure out how to align a project that is useful to me and related to tmsr to begin with; and I thought it was clear that V comes in at the point after establishing the same because it is mandatory for anything related to tmsr. I believe it has been sufficiently explained that getting outta current mine is my primary goal atm, and is | [14:33] |
| shrysr: | unfortunately not as simple as shooting out applications due to a change in line and that without the latter and all this groundwork being done – it would be quite different. Also considering: i have not been absent in chan, have done tasks assigned and have been paying attention to the discussions etc – I'm unable to see how 'totally focused on job search and nothing else' is being viewed as 'entirely my | [14:33] |
| shrysr: | way' in light of the established urgency; that with the time available – I need to do all I can to get out – at the cost of repetition – so that I can make better time to work with you. And yes fwiw – I am well aware of not being chained by you, though I don't understand the bits of 'worked out so well until now' etc. | [14:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ok; so you'll get to v and anything tmsr-related around Christmas, is this correct? | [14:35] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Sep-2019#1004322 – no, it wasn't clear, because it's a prerequisite if anything and because (by your own words eg http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Aug-2019#1000227 and http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1003057) you already did some work on it anyway | [14:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 14:33:03 shrysr: potential timelines] of crystallizing the skill deficit list and to figure out how to align a project that is useful to me and related to tmsr to begin with; and I thought it was clear that V comes in at the point after establishing the same because it is mandatory for anything related to tmsr. I believe it has been sufficiently explained that getting outta current mine is my primary goal atm, and is | [14:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-16 20:44:13 shrysr: I got going with v.py and as mentioned in the task list – i will publish whatever has been done so far so that it can be reviewed more frequently. | [14:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 19:26:25 shrysr: diana_coman: re:V – i'll do it. and no not 'train me for them'… its as you just said – useful for me and tmsr related. useful for me i.e that cover only major skill/proj exp deficits. to illustrate: work with 'large data' on remote sql server and applied text analysis to do XXX. Re: apps now, yes, already sent, and more down the line def. | [14:38] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Sep-2019#1004324 – let me spell it out for you then if you don't understand it: you did precisely and exactly what you wanted and you thought was needed etc until coming here, right? so you have plenty of experience as to how well that works. | [14:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 14:33:07 shrysr: way' in light of the established urgency; that with the time available – I need to do all I can to get out – at the cost of repetition – so that I can make better time to work with you. And yes fwiw – I am well aware of not being chained by you, though I don't understand the bits of 'worked out so well until now' etc. | [14:41] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-30#1004296 << ack and ty for the new due date. yes i still plan to do the travel postings while here, but i haven't done one before so idk how long it will take me. | [14:41] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 06:27:28 diana_coman: whaack_travel: moving forward: 1. your new deadline for http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004282 is 13th of October; I'd rather you take your time and write it as detailed as it gets since it will do you good anyway. 2.do you still plan to post travel writings while you are there? | [14:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 20:34:04 whaack_travel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-27#1004110 << my updated deadline for this is 08/10/19. (two days after I leave JP) but i will try to get it out sooner should I get a chunk of downtime. | [14:41] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-27 09:21:42 whaack_travel: greetings from Japan. I am delayed with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003859 . I have two main problems (1) my laptop battery is about to die. they do not have holes for the 3rd ground plug here, so i have to resolve this issue. (2) I struggled to figure out how to structure my blog post. I came up with 5 main interests and then went into i) history of my involvement with that interest i | [14:41] |
| diana_coman: | based on that experience, decide if you want to continue doing precisely and exactly what you decide or not. | [14:41] |
| whaack_travel: | i did not mean to message from that handle…deleted it from my irc client. anyways, greetings from Seoul | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: good to hear re travel posts, but hopefully it doesn't take longer than the trip to actually write at least one, lolz | [14:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: once you decide re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Sep-2019#1004336 let me know. | [14:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-30 14:41:39 diana_coman: based on that experience, decide if you want to continue doing precisely and exactly what you decide or not. | [14:45] |
| whaack_travel: | lol | [14:48] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you have coupla min, would like to hear your thoughts re this item. i'd like to fix, but need proper scheme. | [14:55] |
| snsabot: | (trilema) 2019-09-28 asciilifeform: 'tape' knob i realized is unusable shortly after cut patch, it needs to be rewritten so as to give 'last N' , rather than using start/end index from the earlier raw-log knob | [14:55] |
| asciilifeform: | considered 'fetch by index of all items' but these will differ b/w different installations if they have diff sets of channels being logged. it may in fact be impossible to have global 'tape' knob as contemplated. | [14:55] |
| asciilifeform: | can't reliably use timestamps, either, as (already discussed) these are guaranteed to differ substantially. | [14:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I didn't yet get to press the new patches and see the thing/readme so I'm not yet sure what are you trying to do there/what's the problem | [16:39] |
#ossasepia Logs for 29 Sep 2019
| diana_alt: | morning | [03:49] |
| diana_alt: | thimbronion: "I wish they provided more information/details" means simply -> you should *ask* them, wtf | [03:58] |
| diana_alt: | thimbronion: given the full bag of oddities there, I'd say do this first : make a list with all the irc networks you can find + their own stated "requirements" bla-bla and where's their chan/means to actually talk to admin people | [03:59] |
| diana_alt: | then we can see from there | [03:59] |
| diana_alt: | re "sponsor" – that's not in itself a problem, we can work it out; but as it reads now, there are more dubious bits in there | [04:00] |
| diana_alt: | in any case and as a rule: we're not going to get bothered with nonsense even if they rename it as "rule" so don't be over-concerned at whatever you encounter. | [04:02] |
| diana_alt: | will bblx01 | [04:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_alt: I should have removed the "i wish…" part of the footnote when I later updated it with the excerpt from the guidelines. | [12:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_alt: I *have* asked my colo if they're going to allow me to link to an IRC network and am awaiting reply. | [12:43] |
| thimbronion: | diana_alt: undernet, though smaller, looks more promising: http://routing-com.undernet.org/showdoc.php?id=2. I am planning to apply there once I hear back from my colo. Their ircd even builds. | [12:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_alt: Oops, just reread http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004221. Will do that before applying anywhere. | [12:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 03:59:49 diana_alt: thimbronion: given the full bag of oddities there, I'd say do this first : make a list with all the irc networks you can find + their own stated "requirements" bla-bla and where's their chan/means to actually talk to admin people | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-29#1938983 – did you respond + fix? | [18:28] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 13:08:24 mp_en_viaje: !Qlater tell thimbronion you know your blog is still broken, click for instance on any comment or title link from http://thimbron.com/2016/08/ | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ^ | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004226 – so the guidelines are specific enough or is there more you wish they said? I'm confused. | [18:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 12:41:44 thimbronion: diana_alt: I should have removed the "i wish…" part of the footnote when I later updated it with the excerpt from the guidelines. | [18:35] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004227 – this should have been clearly stated in there: "I asked colo x on this date, will update when I get their answer" | [18:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 12:43:27 thimbronion: diana_alt: I *have* asked my colo if they're going to allow me to link to an IRC network and am awaiting reply. | [18:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and re "ask them" see for instance also 1n; you need to learn to actually discriminate based on *who* said whatever you hear/read; | [18:53] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: specifically, if it's nobody-on-a-stick talking there, you do NOT waste time "wondering" what they might have "thought"; you either discard the whole thing as pure nonsens or you go and ask so that *they* spend the time supporting it because it's proper that it should be *their* cost, not yours | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | onth if it's an author with proved knowledge in that field, then *you* spend *your* time wondering, yes, because it's worth it and most probably your own failure there and for your own gain to struggle with it, too | [18:57] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as a side note: is the selection mechanism not working on your blog? | [18:59] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: did you find that famed adapter or is there no such thing in all Japan? | [19:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004231 << fixed. About to respond. | [19:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 18:28:30 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-29#1938983 – did you respond + fix? | [19:06] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: can you up yourself in #t ? | [19:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't believe I have any ratings, so I doubt it. | [19:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re http://thimbron.com/2019/09/summary-of-your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/ – 1. how many times did you read the original text ? 2. how many times did you review the summary before publishing it? 3. was it easy/hard/didn't matter to make it in the given word-limit? | [19:08] |
| diana_coman: | also: you should have mentioned the imposed word limit at the top (ie this is a summary of x in 400 words +/-50) + the actual count at the end | [19:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: with the new voice model you won't be able to self-voice in #t even when I rate you; so you'll have to join and I'll up you now so you answer MP | [19:10] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-29#1004242 << this is somewhat odd btw, afaik most of jp uses same mains socket as usa, both mechanically and voltagewise | [19:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 18:48:52 diana_coman: whaack_travel: did you find that famed adapter or is there no such thing in all Japan? | [19:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and, i've never seen yet a city where the tourist shops dun sell whatever universal adapter ) | [19:11] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: we shall see when he comes in and speaks. | [19:11] |
| asciilifeform: | aha | [19:11] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I read it at least 3 times. I came up just short of 350 words on the first pass. Adding a little more detail was not hard. The hard part was understanding certain parts of the text. I reviewed the entire summary twice before publishing, parts of it many times. | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: do you think you understood now those hard parts of the text? | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, the word limit was specifically set (based on the original text ofc, not blindly) to force you to add more but ideally not just sticking some detail but rather working it *as a whole* | [19:14] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't think I fully understand "a feeling doesn't matter within the context of thought." Like, what other contexts are there in which feelings might matter? What's the difference? | [19:15] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so now tell me this: why exactly didn't you ask those questions *before* I poked you, ffs | [19:16] |
| diana_coman: | even if just there at the end of the summary; here's what I STILL can't figure out, help! | [19:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so? why? | [19:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: after reading it a couple of times and bumping into that I thought I'd sleep on it and come at it again. No luck. I did consider adding a footnote, but didn't – not sure why. Also considered asking, but wanted to finish something. | [19:20] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what sort of "finished" can it possibly be when you don't understand what you are "summarizing" in there? | [19:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: it can't be any kind of finished. | [19:21] |
| diana_coman: | and no, not a footnote hidden and as a sort of maybe-kinda-perhaps-not-really | [19:21] |
| diana_coman: | exactly. | [19:21] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: but now on top of that you added more work for you, what can I do. | [19:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: add for next week as task to write a review your own "summary" there (+all the questions you should ask,ofc) | [19:23] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: added to queue. | [19:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and you know, the helpful thing about articles on republican blogs is that they have sane authors so you can hope to get a useful answer if you… ask them, there, under the original text | [19:25] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ah! Yes. it didn't occur to me at all to ask the author. | [19:26] |
| diana_coman: | well, next time I'll set you to summarize some ancient greeks so that at least it's indeed harder to ask them questions | [19:29] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, might I kindly remind everyone that it's Sunday and therefore tomorrow I have time reserved to read the week reviews + plans that will be of course published by the deadline. | [19:30] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: that certainly makes clear to me the advantages of reading the living. | [19:31] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: btw, I hope you did fix *all* the links in the old/imported content on your blog, right? | [19:31] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrowx01 | [19:32] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I wasn't able to find any other similar snafus. Haven't tested all title links, but sampled many. For that particular article the permalink was somehow set to '08'. I have gone through all previous posts to fix some weird spans that ended up in the first lines of many articles. | [19:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will investigate what's going on with the selection mechanism. | [19:41] |
| whaack_travel: | diana_coman: yes, i figured out the adapter problem the next day – i discovered my friend-of-friend had brought the same charger that did not have a third prong for ground. | [20:08] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004234 << The guidelines were specific enough. They won't take me since I am paying for my own server and not sponsored by a hosting company or network operator. | [20:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 18:35:44 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004226 – so the guidelines are specific enough or is there more you wish they said? I'm confused. | [20:12] |
| whaack_travel: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-27#1004110 << my updated deadline for this is 08/10/19. (two days after I leave JP) but i will try to get it out sooner should I get a chunk of downtime. | [20:34] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-27 09:21:42 whaack_travel: greetings from Japan. I am delayed with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003859 . I have two main problems (1) my laptop battery is about to die. they do not have holes for the 3rd ground plug here, so i have to resolve this issue. (2) I struggled to figure out how to structure my blog post. I came up with 5 main interests and then went into i) history of my involvement with that interest i | [20:34] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Sep-2019#1004273 << What is the deadline? Do I need a new plan or can I just continue to operate off the one due Friday? I am planning to post a weekly review unless I hear otherwise from you. | [20:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-29 19:30:44 diana_coman: anyways, might I kindly remind everyone that it's Sunday and therefore tomorrow I have time reserved to read the week reviews + plans that will be of course published by the deadline. | [20:52] |
#ossasepia Logs for 27 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: thanks; and no, one title is enough anyway, lolz; see the comments for a bit more on both how to translate and what does castle license mean | [03:31] |
| whaack_travel: | greetings from Japan. I am delayed with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003859 . I have two main problems (1) my laptop battery is about to die. they do not have holes for the 3rd ground plug here, so i have to resolve this issue. (2) I struggled to figure out how to structure my blog post. I came up with 5 main interests and then went into i) history of my involvement with that interest ii) why that | [09:37] |
| whaack_travel: | is an interest to me iii) my future goals to cultivate the interest. For i) for programming i started to write quite a bit, and so my post turned more into mostly my history of programming (and even with what i wrote it still feels incomplete since i just listed things off without going into much detail for any of them) | [09:37] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 13:06:04 whaack: re deadline for post – i say Saturday 28/09/19. I can get it done on the plane ride, so should be done by Friday, and then I'll leave an extra day in case i have some trouble connecting to the net | [09:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_travel: heh, adapters ftw; *every* time you travel -> check what adapters you'll need. | [09:38] |
| whaack_travel: | heh i'll have to search for one here. i'm off to bed, i've been awake for about 28 hours now. | [09:39] |
| diana_coman: | sleep well! | [09:39] |
| whaack_travel: | ty :) | [09:39] |
| shrysr: | the last time I actually tried being awake all the time was in Leeds i guess. iirc made it ~6 days with only snatches of sleep now and then.. around 15-20 min max at a time, after which i conceded it was…. extra-retarded and there were better things to do. lol. | [12:11] |
| diana_coman: | eh, he's been travelling so quite a different context. | [12:17] |
| shrysr: | yeaaa it is. i've never been able to do any substantial work on a flight except perhaps reading. airport to some extent yes. | [12:25] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1003988 << i'm having trouble understanding how this is rare, though I see the part about 'against gods plans with you'. Preusming it is a specific problem of those who cross the intellectual barrier – so is rare referring | [13:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:45:53 diana_coman: shrysr thimbronion whaack whaack_travel crucial and therefore mandatory reading: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 | [13:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:12:31 mircea_popescu: it's valuable because it is rare, and because it is, quite pointedly, going against god's own plans with you. | [13:45] |
| shrysr: | to the trap of desiring to be 'part of' something or perhaps anything 'not mainstream'? | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the bootstrap is rare; feedback that allows you to *notice* which bit/part you are doing is stupid is quite rare indeed. | [14:24] |
| diana_coman: | the world usually let's you get on with whatever stupid you want for as long as you can…bear the consequences; but discerning which specific bit is screwing you over can be quite difficult indeed, when it's your own bit (if you already knew it was stupid, there'd be no need, ofc) | [14:25] |
| shrysr: | hmm. ok. I guess i was thinking the ones who cross the intellectual barrier have indeed used the bootstrap to do so, but then still fall pray to the persuasion winds and tavern wench chorus by … not thinking, say beyond a point and presuming that every perceived problem is to be solved… and those who can still bootstrap further or perhaps even continuously and discern the above are rare. | [14:48] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: turns out eudev is known and acceptable. | [15:45] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2017-12-19 18:23:09 trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile | [15:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: excellent. | [15:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that's obviously your attempt to match what you're reading to your own personal experience | [15:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it's a very poor habit on first read, and doubly poor when/if you don't even notice you're doing it. | [15:47] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: when you read something it should be a lot more the *other* way around – you may look at how you fit the description there (even how you change to fit the description there) and certainly NOT "how to change the description to fit me" | [15:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re intellectual barrier – it's not just one ie you cross it and you are on the over side; there's an infinity of them as you advance, that's all. | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | you cross one and you are on the other side of *that one* but that doesn't mean you'll notice the next one before/without banging your head on it, let alone manage to cross it | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | hi maxim_mivo | [16:20] |
| maxim_mivo: | Hi | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | oh hey, you registered your key, nice | [16:20] |
| maxim_mivo: | I'm the legal representative of MivoCloud. | [16:21] |
| maxim_mivo: | If you have any questions, feel free to ask. | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: when you say legal representative do you mean "lawyer"? | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | or what's your role there? | [16:22] |
| maxim_mivo: | I'm the CEO | [16:22] |
| diana_coman: | hm | [16:24] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: your irc connection is not a very good advertisement for stability of pipe at mivocloud, lolz. | [16:25] |
| maxim_mivo: | It's the first time for me using an IRC client (i closed the wrong window). | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: I'll rate your key when I get to mine and there will probably be people wanting to talk to you | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: did you figure out the WoT thing? | [16:27] |
| maxim_mivo: | Sorry, didn't have time to dive in | [16:27] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: ah, take your time, there is no rush; this works at people-pace but you'll want to set up possibly a znc bouncer so you remain connected at all times and check the logs to answer what people asked you | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | this channel is logged and one of the logs is hosted precisely with mivocloud – the server I have with you | [16:30] |
| maxim_mivo: | Yeah, already found: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | aha; nobody is at the keyboard at all times but people leave a connection on and when they get to the keyboard they read the log and reply to any pending questions | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: maxim_mivo here is from MivoCloud | [16:33] |
| asciilifeform: | oh neato | [16:33] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: does your company offer colo ? | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: asciilifeform here is Stanislav who enquired earlier and basically prompted me to write the article and invite you here | [16:37] |
| maxim_mivo: | <asciilifeform>, yes, we do offer colocation | [16:37] |
| maxim_mivo: | <asciilifeform>, based on your name, FYI: we speak russian | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | maxim_mivo: glad to see you here really, hope you get your head around the WoT and all the rest; I've rated you, though it might take a while for wot.deedbot.org to update | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | atm I really need to go offline but will talk more on Monday for sure | [16:40] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: excellent. do you have a price list on www ? | [16:40] |
| maxim_mivo: | Do you mean a price list for the colocation service ? | [16:41] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: for entire menu of services, but yes colo also | [16:41] |
| maxim_mivo: | The actual prices can be found here: https://clients.mivocloud.com/cart.php | [16:42] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: thank you, i will read | [16:43] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: hmm, doesn't seem to have price for sent-in colo machine ? or is this elsewhere | [16:44] |
| maxim_mivo: | The colocation service is not public yet. | [16:44] |
| maxim_mivo: | Just a minute | [16:44] |
| maxim_mivo: | Colocation prices: | [16:44] |
| maxim_mivo: | 1U (300 Watt included) – 35 EUR/month | [16:45] |
| maxim_mivo: | Each additional 100 Watt: 7 EUR/month | [16:46] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: this is very good price. what is the cost of installation ? and of kvm service (if i am installing own os) ? | [16:46] |
| maxim_mivo: | Additional socket for the second PSU: 5 EUR/month | [16:47] |
| maxim_mivo: | No installation fees | [16:47] |
| maxim_mivo: | We don't offer a KVM service since all our servers are equipped with an OOB Managment module (iDRAC, IPMI, iLO, etc.) | [16:47] |
| maxim_mivo: | We recommend our customers to have an OOB module too. | [16:48] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: so you have no kvm in the facility at all ? | [16:48] |
| maxim_mivo: | We don't need it. All our current colocation customers have OOB included in their servers. | [16:48] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: i physically disable the oob on all of my machines as it is a known security risk. | [16:48] |
| maxim_mivo: | We provide a VPN service for that. | [16:48] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: if i am supplying own machine, there is no kvm available to connect to it ? | [16:49] |
| maxim_mivo: | That's strange. It's very hard to find a server these days without an OOB module. | [16:51] |
| maxim_mivo: | What's the server model ? | [16:51] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: i just said, i remove the oob from all machines that i build ; | [16:52] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: see e.g. http://qntra.net/2019/09/another-open-bmc-bung-virtual-usb-open-to-anywhere/ , http://qntra.net/2019/07/more-server-bmc-woes-today-lenovo-and-gigabyte/ , http://qntra.net/2019/01/another-round-of-bmc-exploits-hit-x86-64-and-ibm-openpower-servers/ , http://qntra.net/2018/10/dell-idrac-bmc-vulnerability-discovered/ re why. | [16:52] |
| maxim_mivo: | We are aware of the risks for open OOB to internet and because of that we provide a VPN service for the customer in order to access his OOB | [16:53] |
| maxim_mivo: | We leave the OOB open to internet only if the cusomter asks that. | [16:53] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: the machine i was considering to colo in europe , in fact is a 20 x 20 cm brick, with only network, serial port , and mains socket connections. | [16:53] |
| maxim_mivo: | is it rack form factor ? | [16:55] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: it will have rack ears welded to it, if the hoster does not offer shelf | [16:55] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: but more importantly, it has only serial port for out of band access . | [16:55] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: is your facility able to house such a machine ? | [16:55] |
| maxim_mivo: | No problem. Does it require something like Serial <–> Ethernet converter ? | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: only temporarily, in order to configure ip etc. | [16:58] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: but if you can supply the necessary config in advance, before machine is sent in, then does not need at all | [16:58] |
| maxim_mivo: | We can supply the IP config in advance. Also we can connect your device via serial to a temporary physical server so you can configure it. | [17:01] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: very good. i will open an account . my pgp public key is in http://www.loper-os.org/pgp.asc . | [17:02] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: is the postage address for colo machines posted on your www ? | [17:03] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: and what is the best way to contact you ? right now we are taking up space in diana_coman's channel. i am usually found in #asciilifeform . when it comes to actually setting up machine, would like to do pgp via email. | [17:04] |
| maxim_mivo: | We are on telegram 24/24: @mivocloud | [17:05] |
| maxim_mivo: | And of course via the ticket system: support@mivocloud.com | [17:05] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: email, then. | [17:05] |
| maxim_mivo: | The shipping address is: https://www.mivocloud.com/contact-us | [17:05] |
| maxim_mivo: | The shipping address can be found: https://www.mivocloud.com/contact-us | [17:06] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: i will encrypt all messages to the key http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-27#1938453 . | [17:06] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-27 16:04:46 deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/26F8F009F5A6D8BBEC2EF6FC2B5C010E447C6241.asc | [17:06] |
| maxim_mivo: | Please don't forget the customs clearance when shipping your device. | [17:08] |
| maxim_mivo: | We'll have to pay taxes. | [17:08] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: it is difficult to know what they'll charge in advance. i assume if i deposit money in account, you can charge against it ? | [17:08] |
| maxim_mivo: | Yes, of course. | [17:09] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: ok, very good. some time in the next few weeks i will prepare a machine and pre-pay for the service, then if it works well, will buy year+ in advance. | [17:10] |
| maxim_mivo: | Deal | [17:10] |
| asciilifeform: | thanks maxim_mivo | [17:10] |
| maxim_mivo: | You're welcome | [17:10] |
| maxim_mivo: | I'll be here for another couple of hours. If you'll have any questions after that, just write to support@mivocloud.com asking for Maxim to join a #chat on freenode. | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: incidentally i co-run an isp myself, in south america — http://pizarroisp.net . but i also have boxes in other places, for emergency copies. | [17:12] |
| asciilifeform: | maxim_mivo: diana_coman recommended your company, so i decided to try it. | [17:12] |
| asciilifeform: | has to go, will be back later.x01 | [17:13] |
#ossasepia Logs for 26 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Sep-2019#1003976 – that's actually how it works, it's never about what you "like" really, it's always about what you will not live without or in other words, no matter how scrumptious the carrots you see, it's still the stick that actually makes you move. | [03:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 19:57:54 lobbes: in other words, no matter how "happy" I was there was always something "missing", and this gnawed at me day after day. I'd rather be the best me I can be, as diana_coman says, rather than just waste away | [03:18] |
| jfw: | Here's to that, lobbes; and this all speaks to me – the pangs of doubt, but gnawing unhappiness with "plant-happiness". | [04:00] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003528 – indeed | [04:00] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 10:23:29 diana_coman: jfw: probably the above is of interest to you too. | [04:00] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: I'm caught up on present log, and numerically at least I'm getting more efficient at this. Monday night + Tuesday I got much of my whirlwind of thoughts captured in writing; I'd like to review this to see what sticks or should be expanded and published. I have not yet managed to get into the back log. | [04:11] |
| jfw: | My esteem for you has only grown from reading so far — but I have not yet killed the lingering doubts, so I will keep at it. | [04:12] |
| jfw: | ('doubts' in the context of the linked convo, that is: as to whether this is the path for me.) | [04:22] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: so spell out those doubts and look at them properly esp. what's their root or they are very unlikely indeed to go away. | [05:26] |
| diana_coman: | if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too – set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it – e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me" | [05:27] |
| diana_coman: | if it is though of the protection/avoidance sort, you either face it or get screwed by it. | [05:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr thimbronion whaack whaack_travel crucial and therefore mandatory reading: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 | [05:45] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1003986 – that should be 1st of May 2021, of course. | [06:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:27:48 diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too – set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it – e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me" | [06:57] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1003977 << ima chew on this and will write a post. fwiw a draft was written yest.. but ofc has a lot to refine. | [11:51] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 03:18:24 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Sep-2019#1003976 – that's actually how it works, it's never about what you "like" really, it's always about what you will not live without or in other words, no matter how scrumptious the carrots you see, it's still the stick that actually makes you move. | [11:51] |
| shrysr: | hmm, shdnt ^ have also shown lobbes message as well | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: how do you mean? | [12:02] |
| shrysr: | as in i referenced your line, which is referencing lobbes line > and iirc earlier bot wd show each line being referenced? | [12:04] |
| diana_coman: | bot cites only one line, not several; when several lines are cited it's because of interplay between bots (ie if you cited from ossabot's log a line that included a citation from snsabot's log then you'd have both) | [12:04] |
| shrysr: | ah right. ok. | [12:04] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://younghands.club/2019/09/26/takeover-irc/ | [12:06] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yea cite i guess is correct word here. fwiw i setup that citation + bibliography thingy yesterday. Guess it shd be easy henceforth to cite stuff in whatever I write henceforth. | [12:07] |
| shrysr: | well atleast technical papers for sure. | [12:13] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: what exactly *is* lordship, and how does it tie in to being master? also – if you are a lord, and MP is a lord, but you work for MP? shdnt that make him .. like extra-lordy or something? | [12:14] |
| lobbes: | this here republic has a complex social hierarchy, akin to feudalism with its various fiefdoms. | [12:33] |
| lobbes: | but I'm unequipped to properly explain it, I think, and I risk explaining it wrong. in any case /me looks forward to diana_coman's explanation | [12:33] |
| shrysr: | hey thimbronion – you might find it useful to check out feedbot. I use RSS readers n all, but this is quite handy for focused younghands notifications, i.e i guess there is no need to re-post link in chan unless diana_coman wants it. note: I have been using it, but not sure what | [12:34] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman's comment on L1 meant. | [12:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-19 14:21:06 diana_alt: shrysr: never mind, you need to be L1 so not yet; leave feedbot alone | [12:34] |
| thimbronion: | shrysr: thanks. I'll check it out. | [12:38] |
| shrysr: | lobbes: actually, it was explained earlier, but i was thinking abt the feudal relationship between the lords here. | [12:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:38:50 diana_coman: shrysr: anyway, the core of the code was essentially what you'd call now a "code of conduct" but otherwise and more to the point, an attempt to state the relationship between lord (liege/master) and knight (as lower, trained nobility) | [12:38] |
| lobbes: | at least in my case, there is this example. I originally created an auction bot (prototype back then) for MP's #eulora channel. In a sense, while I am technically in the lordship as well as he, *he* is still the one who granted me a license to operate such a bot in his channel(s). | [12:46] |
| lobbes: | I was reminded of the fact that I operate on his land, in a sense, in when "debating" if to have the new auctionbot deal in euloran currency (eCu) or straight btc. I was met in the forum with a "bot deals in ecu or I kick it from chan and have someone else stand up a bot" | [12:46] |
| lobbes: | That solved that in sort order, you see. That is the wonders of actual captialism; it cuts through and gets right to the point | [12:46] |
| shrysr: | ty lobbes, that example helps. | [12:50] |
| lobbes: | yw. I'm glad it did! | [12:58] |
| shrysr: | I guess the query also extends to what does an empty castle or chan signify in terms of lordship? Is there a lord's pledge too or it that each lord completely free to set the law/behave however in their fief? And is attaining lordship only based on completing chosen goal and lol what about retaining lordship? | [13:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:27:48 diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too – set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it – e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me" | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: MP is the King if you go with the feudal titles ie absolute top of the tmsr hierarchy | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: yo, you've put in the wrong link to your *own* website, lmao; I agree it probably would have been easier to have it thimbronion.com but…you chose it as thimbron.com, lolz | [13:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: doh! | [13:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: note that "pick one" is not something to sweat over – remember that the goal is to end up on ALL of them ANYWAY | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | so in this sense, whichever one you "pick" works just fine | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | the "pick" is simply – go and stand up a server on that network; the first non-freenode one on which you got that, is "the pick" | [13:25] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: my best summary of the criteria so far is: one of the top 3 networks (specifically excluding freenode which may not even be in the top three anyway) | [13:25] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: sweating over this "choice" is premature optimisation; given that we want to be in the end on all of them, the *only* real consideration currently would be "the easiest to setup a server on and bridge from"; but since you can't know that upfront really, it doesn't matter much | [13:27] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: got it. | [13:27] |
| diana_coman: | ie start literally by standing up a server on whichever network works; you can pick it rolling a dice for all it matters | [13:27] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: thimbronion L1 means level 1 in the ratings-web that has deedbot at its centre; specifically: those rated directly by deedbot are "L0"; those rated by someone that deedbot rated are "L1" and so forth | [13:31] |
| diana_coman: | until very recently (yesterday), L0 meant the lordship so you'd be in L1 if a lord rated you (positively,ofc) | [13:32] |
| diana_coman: | so shrysr you can use feedbot because I rated you; | [13:36] |
| diana_coman: | once the new model is deployed (lordship = rating 9 from MP rather than rating>0 from deedbot), I'll get around to update the ratings too; | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://younghands.club/2019/09/26/takeover-irc/#comment-29 (but yes, you should follow the rss feeds for younghands.club esp the one for comments) | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004001 – note though that there is no reason why one lord can't work for another, what; don't mix tmsr hierarchy (which is at the end of the day about *role*; yes, roles can't be fulfilled by those undeserving but that doesn't mean that role *makes one deserving*, ugh) | [13:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 12:14:05 shrysr: diana_coman: what exactly *is* lordship, and how does it tie in to being master? also – if you are a lord, and MP is a lord, but you work for MP? shdnt that make him .. like extra-lordy or something? | [13:45] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: followed | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: let's detangle this: MP is the king (absolute ruler) of TMSR; he (as the absolute ruler that he is) then proceeds to markedly split the population into 2 groups: the lordship and the rest; | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | an important part to note there is that these are *not fixed* groups | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | ie non-lords can become lords and the other way around; this is important because absent such mobility, what you get is going nowhere in a short time | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | now, what makes a lord? strictly speaking, MP's decision and ultimately yes, it's his choice; but there are some crucial criteria that are more like "minimum bar" rather than anything else: | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | ie a lord, as a minimum, is someone holding a fief (so active and in charge of some tmsr-relevant piece) + participating in the tmsr court/ halls (aka #trilema) | [14:02] |
| diana_coman: | note that lordship is ultimately a recognition of *usefulness* , nothing more, nothing less | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | and the important part there is that it *follows* (not precedes) said usefulness but it doesn't say anything about (nor impose restrictions on) the lord's nature or private arrangements or whatever | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | and for that matter, one can be a master without being a lord, perfectly fine | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: to round it up: making it to lordship means strictly "have intelligent and relevant things to say + be so active and useful to tmsr that the other lords want you among them in #t" | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | note that there isn't even any requirement to …accept lordship, after all; while it hasn't yet happened, I don't see why it wouldn't, some time. | [14:11] |
| diana_coman: | so now, the above is *not* to be mixed with one's own nature or their current interests; one can be a slave and part of the lordship; one can be a Master and not part of the lordship; *any* combination really. | [14:16] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ty. i think i understand now. Was also wondering – what happens to the system + model if the king is marooned on mars or drops dead? | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter, lobbes is a lord; this doesn't mean that he's barred from getting help in here (or I'm not barred from helping him), what sense would that make | [14:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it's a republic of people, not systems/models; as such, if at that time there is someone able to actually be a King, then it goes on as they steer it; if not, it dies whatever death it dies. | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what happens to this chan here if I get marooned on mars or I drop dead? | [14:23] |
| shrysr: | well tbh lol i kindda worry about that…. (not that much.. but thought has occurred). I presume… chan wd just die unless someone decided to take up the cause/purpose of the chan. | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it's not just "decided" really; I mean: sure, one can decide to anything but whether it works or how it works depends on a whole lot more than "decided to"; there is however *no possible escape* from this; the moment you try to make it "independent of individuals", the only possible result is …sterile bureaucracy. | [14:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: essentially, what happens when the King dies (or equivalent) is that the republic as-it-was dies one death anyway but in some happy cases, it manages to be reborn/reincarnated in the same place (in the shape that the new King gives it) and quickly enough that the population doesn't suffer too great losses, that's pretty much it. | [14:35] |
| diana_coman: | ie "continuity" is to some extent an illusion: sure, it's named the same and it follows even perhaps similar principles but to the extent that it is what the King makes it, it can't be said to be "the same" | [14:38] |
| diana_coman: | and there is no need or desired for it to be "the same" either, it should change; continuity of the above sort is quite enough really (I suppose the usual "you can't step twice in the same river" might help to illustrate why not the same) | [14:40] |
| shrysr: | re: sterile bureaucrazy – yes.. i see what you mean. | [14:43] |
| shrysr: | re: not same + what king makes it : yes, i get that. | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | but yes, it's basically *the reason* why one would defend the king/the master, if nothing else. | [14:43] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: do you know the story of english prof. bentham ? | [14:44] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: fella had himself stuffed after died, so 'could continue to sit at meetings' | [14:44] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: when i think of attempts at 'continuity in spite of errything!11' — is what i picture. | [14:45] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc diana_coman for many yrs was in england, perhaps has even seen this mummified 'chairman'. | [14:46] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: not heard of prof bentham. but lmao :)) that picture explains it rather well. | [14:47] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: neah, I have no curiosity really but fwiw the "Parlament debates" here are usually hillarious, quite more fun than any plays/sketches they manage to write/act otherwise. | [14:47] |
| asciilifeform: | people make fun of mummified lenin, but at least the latter did not demand to be wheeled into meetings of politburo after died | [14:47] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I don't know bentham demanded that though, hm; iirc he asked to be dissected (ie body used for study) and then preserved, that's all. | [14:48] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: possibly legend. but is what i associate with him. | [14:48] |
| diana_coman: | onth I wonder how long it would take until some committee or another notices if one of its "members" is stuffed. | [14:48] |
| diana_coman: | aha,it's a perfect illustration, yes; | [14:49] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc bentham could be seen at oxford , until someone made off with the head… | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | possibly why not seen; I've been to Oxford otherwise quite a number of times so I think I'd have spotted him. | [14:50] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004057 << conversely – it is not impossible for lordship to overthrow the king? needn't kill him while asleep or something, and I can tie in with lobbes example – but lordship + rest cd establish separate 'republic' if 'pissed off' with the king? (Doesnt mean they wd be successful ofc). And the | [15:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 14:43:56 diana_coman: but yes, it's basically *the reason* why one would defend the king/the master, if nothing else. | [15:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 12:46:38 lobbes: I was reminded of the fact that I operate on his land, in a sense, in when "debating" if to have the new auctionbot deal in euloran currency (eCu) or straight btc. I was met in the forum with a "bot deals in ecu or I kick it from chan and have someone else stand up a bot" | [15:22] |
| shrysr: | vassalage relationship i.e protection n guidance, is offered by the king to the lords – yes? | [15:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:43:09 diana_coman: as for the feudal relationship of vasselage – the core of it would be that : a. the lord offers protection and guidance, possibly also a fief b. the vassal in return pledges unconditional loyalty and support when asked for it (in pretty much whatever form is asked for) | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: historically we had several folx who went away with 'i'ma make my own tmsr! with hookers and blackjack!' but 0 interesting came of these. | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004071 – they can desert, of course, though it makes about ~0 sense really (why start from 0 when there is the thing already); as asciilifeform points out though, cast-aways and splits did happen but with 0 real effect | [15:36] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 15:22:54 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004057 << conversely – it is not impossible for lordship to overthrow the king? needn't kill him while asleep or something, and I can tie in with lobbes example – but lordship + rest cd establish separate 'republic' if 'pissed off' with the king? (Doesnt mean they wd be successful ofc). And the | [15:36] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004074- afaik it hasn't been made explicit/stated as such, no; and remember that in the original medieval code, vasselage was an add-on essentially so possibly not (yet) relevant really | [15:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 15:22:56 shrysr: vassalage relationship i.e protection n guidance, is offered by the king to the lords – yes? | [15:39] |
| diana_coman: | the important part is that the King is the ultimate authority (the one with whom the buck stops); as such, public authority flows inevitably from him, yes; that's about it. | [15:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: remember that tmsr is still this thing here, growing as it sees fit; it's not a "let's copy medieval times" or something – to the extent that the growth happens (for reasons related to what growth is) similarly to that past thing, the same structures will naturally follow and therefore the same names might meaningfully be used | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | but that doesn't mean that we're stuck now in having to import everything just because it was done then. | [15:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: right. i understand.. and that makes sense to me as well…there has to be some basis i guess, and it has to be built/modified as required. fwiw /me likey tmsr. Though I guess I am somewhat uncomfortable with the concept of a King, but I'm aware 'things' depend on how the King, and Lords are i.e people based. i will admit i've even worked with some leaders at minez who have made me wanna … | [16:23] |
| shrysr: | be like them (someday) fwiw. though ofc such ppl seem rather rare and still hard to access but imho it makes all the difference. Particularly the fluidity between lordship <–> rest is quite interesting to think of. | [16:23] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004076 << important to note why this is, too: not everyone is fit to wear the crown. Goes back to diana_coman's point earlier about titles following action, not the other way around. Sure, many splintered off and "declared themselves King" because "pissed" or whatever, but they had neither the influence nor resources (be they capital, intellectual, | [16:32] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 18:24:04 asciilifeform: shrysr: historically we had several folx who went away with 'i'ma make my own tmsr! with hookers and blackjack!' but 0 interesting came of these. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004015 – there's no requirement (at least not as yet) to have/maintain a castle, no; think of it: I'm Marquess Eulora, not #o, for that matter | [16:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 13:02:26 shrysr: I guess the query also extends to what does an empty castle or chan signify in terms of lordship? Is there a lord's pledge too or it that each lord completely free to set the law/behave however in their fief? And is attaining lordship only based on completing chosen goal and lol what about retaining lordship? | [16:32] |
| lobbes: | experience, connection-based resources) to perform the job of a proper King | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | the 2nd question there doesn't quite make sense to me – what you cite is something specifically-crafted for a particular profile. | [16:33] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re 2nd Q : ok, ya i thought it was general, but gathered from above thread that its not like that. | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: fwiw, being uncomfortable with there being a King is one of those cases where it's your problem, not the reality's fault; it links in to today's mandatory reading | [16:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 05:45:53 diana_coman: shrysr thimbronion whaack whaack_travel crucial and therefore mandatory reading: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 | [16:35] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002085 << i get the point. but fwiw (though i prolly dont know enough) – i dun think i can be averse to trying to become you…or atleast part of you or asciilifeform in the process. i think its not just the logs that have to be eaten..lol the master(s) also to be eaten. absolute vulnerability also involves absorption? | [16:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:21:31 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002075 – ?? the whole point is to become the best he can be, not to become fucking me or bingo or someone else, ffs. | [16:48] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: lol, that is more likely to depend on your own representation of it (ie if you see it in terms of eating or whatever); yes, learning from someone means inevitably copying their style to start with (not just superficially, no) | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | so in this sense, certainly; and it's true that the more attuned the relationship, the deeper the "copy" but it's always super-imposed and ultimately mixed until at some point – I'd hope – you make out of everything you got + "copied" on the way, your own style | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | ofc, that doesn't mean that one wouldn't be able to even trace perhaps what you learnt from where; there's no problem with that. | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: absolute vulnerability involves openness – to change (aka learning) through all available means so yes, absorbing too, why not. | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | speaking of castles, this #ossasepia castle here is now licensed as can be seen at any time in the [deedbot.org/deed-596500-2.txt][license deed]. | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | speaking of castles, this #ossasepia castle here is now licensed as can be seen at any time in the license deed. | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | now that I finally got the order of [][] right, I still have to remember the http apparently. | [17:21] |
| lobbes: | congrats on the castlehood! | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | thanks! | [17:35] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: congrats on the castlehood! I cd understand less than half though and only bits and pieces. | [18:49] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004088 << :D do you get an additional title now ? | [18:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-26 16:32:13 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Sep-2019#1004015 – there's no requirement (at least not as yet) to have/maintain a castle, no; think of it: I'm Marquess Eulora, not #o, for that matter | [18:56] |
#ossasepia Logs for 25 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: if you can indeed spot all that it being bought for what it actually is, then yes, it works; but then, if you can actually do that, you can equally well just explore the domain and make your own learning path, so why bother filtering the filth? | [03:09] |
| diana_coman: | for books and courses, the author matters and for modern "domains" it can be just as hard to filter out the noise and find a good book as it is to find a good master; | [03:12] |
| diana_coman: | older domains may benefit from having some known reference book by the old guard so yes, it's comparatively easier there. | [03:13] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://younghands.club/2019/09/25/gpg-overview-writeup-plan-week-1/#comment-25 | [03:37] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [06:00] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 3d 15h 36m | [06:00] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: after trying out the "small canon" and being very unimpressed (< quality of phone pic) i got the dsc-rx100 and needless to say am very satisfied! I put my old blog onto ztkfg.com with updated links. todays goals are: saltmines, pack for japaan, setup my travel bouncer, and get my CR tickets. | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: good for you re dsc-rx100; and the rest sounds like a good plan. | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: actually: there's still a post you need to write too or is that done? | [11:54] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: no it's not done. i will try to do that tonight as well, but i'm not sure i'll have time. i was thinking that it may be a good activity for the plane ride | [11:56] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ook but you have to give a deadline for publishing it. | [11:58] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, better give yourself some time than rush it. | [11:59] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: how's the log-reading going? | [12:36] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Publishing on ztkfg while away requires tweaking some of my current settings on pizarro. So if i set a due-date during my trip, I will have to publish it on younghands. I think it serves as a good init post there, but i'll also want to copy it over to my personal blog when i get back. | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I don't mind it but if you can't publish on your own blog while away – how are you going to blog Japan? | [13:03] |
| whaack: | well i'd store it locally and then publish it when i get back. | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | hm, I thought you wanted feedback as you went about too; it's really up to you but in this case it makes more sense to set the deadline for when you come back and publish it on your own blog. | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | when do you come back exactly? | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the trouble with publishing same thing in 2 places is precisely that you split stupidly any discussion on it. | [13:07] |
| whaack: | October 8th. Okay I will just tweak my settings so I can post to my blog while away. | [13:08] |
| diana_coman: | so publish it on your own blog and just link it from a review post on younghands. | [13:08] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ok; when is then the deadline for this post? | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | the 8th means less than 2 weeks and running around korea too, huh. | [13:10] |
| whaack: | yeah, we go from Kyoto back to Tokyo by flying Kyoto -> Seoul, Seoul -> Tokyo. I would have had us moving around way less had I planned it. | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: did you travel abroad other-than-CR before? | [13:12] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Well while I was in CR before, I traveled to Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Peru. Before CR, i had traveled to the Dominican Republic with a group of college friends, and then a few other places as a teenager | [13:16] |
| whaack: | So insofar as i'm an independent adult, notrly. but from my limited experience i know that i do not like to move around a lot trying to site-see everything i can. I'd rather just be in a new place for two weeks | [13:17] |
| diana_coman: | ok, at least not totally green on that though by the sounds of it only the Americas, huh; differences might come as a shock esp as Japan is …very tightly packed by comparison. | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | and Korea too for that matter | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | but yes, it sounds rushed, at the very least. | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | well, next time you'll know what/where you want/don't want to spend more time, at the very least. | [13:21] |
| whaack: | re deadline for post – i say Saturday 28/09/19. I can get it done on the plane ride, so should be done by Friday, and then I'll leave an extra day in case i have some trouble connecting to the net | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: sounds good. | [13:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://younghands.club/2019/09/25/gpg-overview-writeup-plan-week-1/#comment-26 | [13:23] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: that requires a re-covering of the basics really; what do you mean when you say you are not good about re-reading? | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: yo! | [13:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not sure how to respond. I got the idea that it's good to reread things to better understand them. However, after rereading things and understanding them better, I still don't do it very much. Perhaps not knowing what to prioritize… | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | if it's just "don't do it very much", it'll get solved through repeated beatings, until you do it. | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | but it's unclear whether you do reading very well to start with; hm, lemme see. | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://younghands.club/2019/09/25/gpg-overview-writeup-plan-week-1/#comment-27 | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: whenever you don't do something despite knowing that it's better if you do it, the core answer is that you don't perceive the *need* to do it; | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | ie you get away/got away so far without doing it. | [13:47] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://younghands.club/2019/09/25/gpg-overview-writeup-plan-week-1/#comment-28 | [13:48] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you write anywhere before starting http://thimbron.com/ this August? | [13:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes: http://63.80.184.72/blog/ | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so why this silly new-blog-new-me or what is it? | [13:51] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's #exusiae ? | [13:53] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Hm. Well. 1) old blog software was written by myself and had no hope of getting as good as mp-wp. 2) Had considered importing old posts, but didn't value them all that much. 3) Didn't want to re-setup my old blog software on new server. 4) New blog was because I wanted something hosted outside of US and wouldn't get arbitrarily taken down for wrong think. | [13:55] |
| whaack: | heh i wonder how many secret "sideline republic" blogs there are | [13:55] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: might not value it, but it's your history; add task 2: import all those old posts to your blog on thimbron.com | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack: iirc shinohai had one, but currently down | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: probably a ton honest enough to at least link to relevant material ~some of the time; + many more tons that studiously avoid linking to anything that might touch tmsr. | [13:56] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: #exusiae was meant for discussion of my blog posts. It was also necessary due to the way I implemented comments for my static blog. So, if you wanted to comment, you had to reference the post in #exusiae. | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ah, so it's your own chan? | [13:57] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes. I only ever talked in it with a former college friend. We had a huge fight over Trump – all in the #exusiae logs. Completely dead now. | [13:58] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: i had something similar sketched out http://ztkfg.com/2017/10/why-this-blog/#selection-19.219-23.1 | [13:58] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: no wonder, since you were both avoiding the same thing -> the same away. | [13:59] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: cool. I know the idea had been discussed in #trilema or #bitcoin-assets. | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: import those posts to thimbron.com; you get to decide if you want to import the log of that chan too (as one post or whatever) | [14:00] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: will do. | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://63.80.184.72/blog/systems_not_gaols.html – ahahaha; is that goals -> gaols on purpose ? | [14:08] |
| whaack: | "Note that the name of this piece is intentionally mispelled." < I think so | [14:11] |
| thimbronion: | whaack, diana_coman: I honestly couldn't remember until I read the last line. | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: a bit of a shame really ie if on purpose, the text should have *done something with it*, not "point it out of sorts in last sentence" | [14:14] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I agree. Pretty lame. | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what I don't get though: from your blog posts, you seem to be actually quite at ease talking to people; but somehow you talk to and search for… idiots a whole lot more than anyone else; why? | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | more than for* anyone else | [14:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not intentionally searching for idiots. Most of my friends turned out to be idiots. I'm not sure where besides here and #trilema I could talk to non-idiots. The best I've been able to do is read #trilema and Trilema, after having fucked up my gpg key. | [14:22] |
| thimbronion: | I did create the blog with the hopes of having the posts show up in #bitcoin-assets, but right around that time I messed up my key. | [14:25] |
| asciilifeform: | http://63.80.184.72/blog/kevin_pham_wrong.html >> 'he was active in attacking Ethereum, which itself is an attack on Bitcoin' << wat ? | [14:35] |
| thimbronion: | asciilifeform: I do not understand the question. | [14:35] |
| whaack: | asciilifeform: his which refers to ethereum not the attacking of ethereum | [14:36] |
| asciilifeform: | aa hm | [14:36] |
| thimbronion: | ah yes. ethereum is the attack. | [14:36] |
| asciilifeform: | this is sorta what punctuation is for, lol | [14:36] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: ftr at first i parsed it the way asciilifeform did. | [14:37] |
| asciilifeform: | ( on my home planet this sorta lol is known as 'казнить Ð½ÐµÐ»ÑŒÐ·Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¼Ð¸Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ' ) | [14:37] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: I can see it. | [14:37] |
| whaack: | asciilifeform: is there a loose translation? is it an expression for 'humor that arises from a confused antecedent'? | [15:03] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i go back to CR on Oct 19th | [15:13] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack: 'execute cannot reprieve' | [15:16] |
| asciilifeform: | 'execute cannot, reprieve' is valid , ru has flex word ordering | [15:16] |
| asciilifeform: | 'execute, cannot reprieve' ditto | [15:16] |
| whaack: | lols | [15:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Sep-2019#1003894 – your criteria when choosing/searching though are flawed from what I read on your old blog (eg "crypto twitter personality", HackerNews) and as a result "searching for idiots" ; | [15:36] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 14:22:47 thimbronion: diana_coman: I am not intentionally searching for idiots. Most of my friends turned out to be idiots. I'm not sure where besides here and #trilema I could talk to non-idiots. The best I've been able to do is read #trilema and Trilema, after having fucked up my gpg key. | [15:36] |
| diana_coman: | and while you might have been following here (I don't doubt it), hoping for recognition out of nowhere is not a good approach at all. | [15:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: even here, why did I have to go and explicitly tap you on a shoulder anyway? why didn't you say something on your own, just like you said to that guy whose seminar you went to (presumably you found him and went to him on your own) | [15:38] |
| diana_coman: | this is why I say that you seem to make much more of an effort for the idiots than for the few non-idiots that you find. | [15:39] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: iirc english has that "come eat grandma" (come eat, grandma vs come, eat grandma) | [15:44] |
| thimbronion: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003915 << I was aware of the younghands club, but hadn't read up on it in great detail. I'm not sure why I didn't join earlier. I want to say because of the name. I didn't consider myself all that young. And holy cow yes. I burned a good 9 months on Twitter idiocy. I have followed it because I occasionally get insights there, though recently less | [15:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 15:23:08 diana_coman: thimbronion: even here, why did I have to go and explicitly tap you on a shoulder anyway? why didn't you say something on your own, just like you said to that guy whose seminar you went to (presumably you found him and went to him on your own) | [15:44] |
| thimbronion: | and less. | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i was taught a supposed equivalent in eng, 'the hookers lenin stalin and hitler went into a bar' | [15:44] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: but yours also worx | [15:45] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: clearly your kindergarten was more adult than mine, lol | [15:46] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the interesting thing is that they dun seem to teach either variant, or for that matter why the fuck punctuation exists, to schoolchildren in usa | [15:46] |
| asciilifeform: | so they grow up thinking of it as decorative, like 'emoji' | [15:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: don't consider without asking; not only here but in general: *ask*; you have nothing to lose for a question and everything to lose for not asking it. | [15:47] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes; they don't seem to teach how to read something either; remember nicoleci's summaries? the woman can clearly think but oh boy; and I almost dread I'll find the same with thimbronion (hopefully not but…) | [15:48] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will be more aware of when I'm missing opportunities to ask. | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: on the bright side, you spoke up timely when struggling with the work/deadline so there is hope! | [15:52] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am aware of the necessity of asking *before* missing deadlines. | [15:53] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Sep-2019#1003906 – ok; I'll take this as proper starting date here ie your first week-plan will be for the week 21-27 October | [15:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 15:13:12 whaack: diana_coman: i go back to CR on Oct 19th | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: for that matter, since you know python, you are hardened working with the full web-shitstack and you've been following around for quite a while – doesn't the take over irc fief appeal to you? | [16:27] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will read and consider (and ask!) what this would entail. Also would this be in addition to the Chinese thing or in place of it? | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as a springboard to the chinese thing, really; re China, in principle there is big scope there though possibly not the sort that you imagine | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | because "chinese news" as such a la herpy-derpy local-twitter personalities is at best smoke in the wind | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re what would this entail- the idea is here: multiple networks | [16:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-19 05:39:18 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, an' considering we're apparently stuck with a buncha chrises over here : any of your resident knights capable of registering a chan on ~any other network~ and writing the bridge code on top of extant bot already ? | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: maybe get a cloak from freenode | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: it's not synced well in #o : http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Sep-2019#1003938 vs http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003938 | [17:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 16:59:35 diana_coman: whaack: maybe get a cloak from freenode | [17:02] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 16:29:20 ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-19 05:39:18 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, an' considering we're apparently stuck with a buncha chrises over here : any of your resident knights capable of registering a chan on ~any other network~ and writing the bridge code on top of extant bot already ? | [17:02] |
| asciilifeform: | hmm lessee | [17:02] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: done re cloak. okay, I am also willing to start the 14th, I don't see a reason to wait until i'm in CR to start, unless you want the weekly plans to be specific TMSR work, because the week of the 14th imo should be prepping for my CR trip (making sure i bring all necessary tools, etc) | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: works that way too, sure. | [17:28] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman so the idea is to a) stand up a republican ircd, b) stand up a bot that serves as a proxy between the republican ircd and [insert existing network here excluding freenode]? | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ideally the full idea runs like this: add a server to another network, run there republican ircd and then gradually extend to all networks, bridging as you add more networks so that users connected to one network appear connected to all networks | [17:39] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ok. I'm willing to take this on. | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: it's an opening and if you do it properly you basically have your way to the top right there; after which, you *can* have something to say re/from china too, for that matter; | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: note also that you really do need to get your head around the WoT among other basics because otherwise you'll trip over them quite badly | [17:48] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: noted. | [17:50] |
| diana_coman: | at any rate, if you want to work on this, make your plan and ask if you need whatever sort of help with it | [17:51] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will make a plan. At the moment I need to get some consulting work done. | [17:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok. | [17:54] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003827 << yea. Making your own path is appealing to me… Was reflecting that in a way, i have been doing so.. only taking in what i could discern/clarify as sensible and using them as jumpstarts into concepts and then jumping from course to course or even book to book. That path was not totally 'unplanned' but definitely not… well planned either. The | [18:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-25 03:09:17 diana_coman: shrysr: if you can indeed spot all that it being bought for what it actually is, then yes, it works; but then, if you can actually do that, you can equally well just explore the domain and make your own learning path, so why bother filtering the filth? | [18:24] |
| shrysr: | courses were seen more of a short cut to becoming 'job ready ASAP' i guess, and also connecting with some instructors as mentors. lol. There are probably very few ppl who take the time to respond outside such circles. I've often received responses after weeks/months. | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: fwiw in general you seem to actively *prefer* to make your own path; but then all of a sudden you have second thoughts or get cold feet or dunno what and you seem to turn around entirely looking to follow. | [18:27] |
| shrysr: | idk for sure. i guess… at some point i lose faith. It appears I encounter examples every day of so many ppl just …..happy — or *not* … struggling with meaning or wanting to do something worthwhile. Do the 9-5… go home and watch TV or something. | [18:34] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the term of art for this is 'go to the bottle' | [18:35] |
| asciilifeform: | ( granted , not erryone drinks ; but ~erryone has some ~equivalent~ ready to fall into if he falls down ) | [18:36] |
| shrysr: | lol | [18:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes, many are happy to just exist, similar to other plants around, sure. | [18:42] |
| diana_coman: | some are straight happy like that, some find it via derealisation | [18:45] |
| diana_coman: | but none of those are individuals essentially, no matter how you look at it. | [18:48] |
| diana_coman: | and because you are not one of those plants, if you beat yourself up to become one, you'll go as asciilifeform says – to the bottle/weed/similar | [18:49] |
| shrysr: | yes. fwiw i had my for a long time, but *most* of the time.. I worked, or thought abt work. I took it primarily to … just think and work with freedom. After Uni ~2011 and entering work, I've been at it completely alone. But plants or not, their happiness makes me often doubt whether i'm just…. wrong. | [18:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you wouldn't be happy with their "happy"; if ever in doubt, look a bit closer at *all* they "have", not just the "they seem happy" and you'll find in short order stuff you wouldn't put up with | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | and note also that there is often a huge difference between what they claim and what it really is | [18:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and you know, for that matter, how does it work "plants or not"; what, next you'll be "wrong" for not doing photosynthesis? | [19:30] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: lol not like that. i was trying to explain what i thought/observed. apologies – have to bbl. | [19:32] |
| diana_coman: | I got what you were trying to explain, lol; the point above is that your conclusion can't stand because the comparison is broken to start with; anyways, laters. | [19:36] |
| lobbes: | re: "happy" with just settling for derealisation, I still get those pangs of doubt too shrysr, and lose faith from time to time. After dismissing my last girl especially, I often think "hey, maybe I'm not smart enough after all, maybe I should have just settled for what I had, etc. I was very happy at times." | [19:57] |
| lobbes: | but then, as usual, there's a very good MP quote that perfectly sums up *why* I made the choice I did in the first place | [19:57] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-17 18:17:42 mircea_popescu: the problem with being on heroin is that you never really escape the inkling of actual reality. | [19:57] |
| lobbes: | in other words, no matter how "happy" I was there was always something "missing", and this gnawed at me day after day. I'd rather be the best me I can be, as diana_coman says, rather than just waste away | [19:57] |
#ossasepia Logs for 24 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003638 – aka http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000508 – good to see you did ask him. | [05:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 18:24:52 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003628 << Well it is no longer a doubt after having spoken with asciilifeform. It may have been a protection/avoidance spew, but i can't recognize it as one myself. | [05:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:24:17 whaack: asciilifeform: following from http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003544 I am considering submitting to training under diana_coman, but before I pulled the trigger I thought I should stop here and ask if you feel it would be wiser for me to submit to training under you. Is this something you are interested in, and if so what would be required of me for you to take me? | [05:29] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 16:28:43 diana_coman: whaack: good for you on admitting to it all; now, is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003541 still an actual doubt or just yet another protection/avoidance spew? | [05:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:01:46 whaack: diana_coman: Japan certainly will be blogged! Well I do feel already decided; I don't feel the need to think it over in Japan – I would rather just have guidance on how to make best use of that trip. The only doubt I would have would be that perhaps asciilifeform or another lord is looking for someone and i would be better off serving them… but it seems you are the lord interested in training with younghands et all and woul | [05:29] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 10:51:45 diana_coman: whaack: so ask them directly, why not ask? fwiw yes, I would send you to someone else if I think it's a better fit but I don't know if "transfer" is the word for it; for one thing, you're not a package to just transfer; for the other, you can't and shouldn't eschew choice; see http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/fog-of-war/#comment-43 | [05:29] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003641 – good; I'll get you set up there in a bit. | [05:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 18:32:00 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003520 << I cannot think of a reason to turn this offer down, so I will say 'yes'. Maybe at the one per month frequency. | [05:30] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 09:21:05 diana_coman: lobbes: you are doing quite well there from what I see with planning and sticking to it on the mp-wp work but at any rate – would you find it useful to have also a more general plan+review for yourself on younghands.club? ie going beyond just this one mp-wp current task; maybe for 2 weeks/1 month stretches at a time? | [05:30] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003658 – that was in 2014 though, back when one still thought DNS might have some use; meanwhile http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/ | [05:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 18:50:41 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003635 << ztkfg.com was based on http://trilema.com/2014/why-everything-you-think-you-know-about-dns-is-entirely-wrong/ and grabbing a small character count. but i will consider switching to whaacked | [05:32] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:32:28 diana_coman: whaack: fwiw, whaacked.com is an easier to remember domain than ztkfg.com | [05:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: overall re domain name, it's mainly a question of what's your target really – if you target mainly those searching you via google, it makes sense perhaps to keep as primary ztkfg (I'd have said something ~readable even if short+unusual combination of starting letters); if you target those coming to you via WoT, all that stuff is irrelevant really and you might want to make it easier instead to link it with your name as you build yo | [05:36] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003662 – nice; I hope you have a decent camera with you too, yes? | [05:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 18:55:56 whaack: lobbes: cool! I am going to Tokyo and Kyoto. I also am stopping in Seoul, Korea for a few days | [05:38] |
| diana_coman: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 – not a bad idea at all, go ahead and write it. | [05:55] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:56:55 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar | [05:55] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw | [07:17] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I'll give you a chance, make the most of it; http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=TaQJ | [07:20] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=w2HC | [07:26] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: thank you *bows* | [08:37] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: nice; I hope you have a decent camera with you too, yes? << Yes, I considered getting http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/12/camera-tests-of-a-sunday/ but a friend has a small Canon they are going to give me for the trip. | [08:39] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: well, you'll need a good camera in costa rica too | [08:44] |
| diana_coman: | you know your resources atm but that camera is worth its price. | [08:44] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: let me know when you got your return date. | [08:45] |
| whaack: | whaack: let me know when you got your return date. << Okay. Do you have a task or init younghands post you would like me to do prior to Thursday when I leave for JP? | [09:12] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: atm you need to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003633 ; the younghands posts will be weekly plans+reviews so best start on those when you get back. | [09:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:45:27 diana_coman: whaack: re the 2 blogs – you can't run away from yourself; so do yourself a favour and stop trying to split: get the content in one single place, redirect the other domain so no links are broken and stick with it; it's fine to cringe at your own past-doings and it's even healthy because it IS a sign of growth. | [09:14] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: do you have some specific plan for the trip? | [09:16] |
| diana_coman: | it's very little time until Thursday and you have already the above + http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003682 to write on your blog so do those, it's fine. | [09:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 05:55:31 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 – not a bad idea at all, go ahead and write it. | [09:18] |
| diana_coman: | hm, interesting; let's test: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 | [09:19] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:41:10 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar | [09:19] |
| diana_coman: | and test part 2: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003698 | [09:19] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 09:19:32 diana_coman: hm, interesting; let's test: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 | [09:19] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:41:10 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar | [09:19] |
| diana_coman: | ha; asciilifeform where was this bot-cites-stuff-from-other-bot specced? I can see the point, but it does create as above difference depending on the interplay of bots rather than anything else, not sure this specific aspect was intended, was it? | [09:21] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: no i don't have a specific plan for the trip. there are three of us total, the third person is a friend-of-a-friend. he has been the one putting together the itinerary. alright, I will try to merge my blogs and create a what-am-i-interested-in post before i head out | [09:27] |
| whaack: | and setup a bouncer for a travel handle is a top priority as well. | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: sounds like a good opportunity to try your hand at travel-logging really; esp since interactions can get… interesting with friends-of-friends with whom you haven't travelled before. | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | aha. | [09:29] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-10-review/#comment-22 , yes I think it is atleast one core of my problems and recently slow progress. I've managed to do the 2-headed approach sometimes in short phases, which is probably why i can do something in data-hag today. In general I've been more successful with this at mine stuff. But i regress back to 'knowing it all' very …naturally, | [11:27] |
| shrysr: | almost on 'automatic'. I think one way to tackle it is to write out a project goal + plan and stick to it, and just file away 'related /deeper tasks or desired knowledge'…and to review frequently, but still strictly control whether I plunge into anything 'else'. | [11:27] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: also ack the comment on the bash script post. ty. I understand what you've said, but still assimilating. | [11:31] |
| shrysr: | Re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-11-plan/#comment-21, I think that approach makes more sense; tbh the priority+practice part has been bothering me as well. Will post an updated plan with this style, as a new post superceding previous, if thats ok? btw: whyddya call it 'dev-style'? | [11:41] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003704 << was in mp's orig spec . | [12:00] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 09:05:38 diana_coman: ha; asciilifeform where was this bot-cites-stuff-from-other-bot specced? I can see the point, but it does create as above difference depending on the interplay of bots rather than anything else, not sure this specific aspect was intended, was it? | [12:00] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003685 << tyvm. I will aim to get a general workplan out for Oct by the end of today, methinks | [12:51] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 10:17:53 diana_coman: lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003709- sounds sensible, try it and see how it goes. | [13:36] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 11:27:50 shrysr: almost on 'automatic'. I think one way to tackle it is to write out a project goal + plan and stick to it, and just file away 'related /deeper tasks or desired knowledge'…and to review frequently, but still strictly control whether I plunge into anything 'else'. | [13:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: fwiw, it may be that you don't feel comfortable working with uncertainty essentially; it is curable, mainly through practice. | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003711 – mainly because it's close to how requirements for a piece of software are sometimes classed ie "must-have, nice-to-have" | [13:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 11:41:33 shrysr: Re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-11-plan/#comment-21, I think that approach makes more sense; tbh the priority+practice part has been bothering me as well. Will post an updated plan with this style, as a new post superceding previous, if thats ok? btw: whyddya call it 'dev-style'? | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do you see the difference I mean there ? (ie final result/cited lines depending on which logs are used by each person rather than on what is referenced) | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | I'll mull this over a bit. | [13:40] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: indeed depends on which logs. | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003714 – you still have a few days until the end of the month but if you want to have time for 1-2 iterations it's best to publish a draft sooner rather than later, indeed. | [13:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 12:51:45 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003685 << tyvm. I will aim to get a general workplan out for Oct by the end of today, methinks | [13:41] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 10:17:53 diana_coman: lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw | [13:41] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i was considering a knob to toggle off citing of other-bots entirely , but shelved it, as mp said he dun care atm | [13:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it isn't difficult to implement, as config already contains a list of known bots to check against | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: atm I can see it both ways (just one line or full tree) but what bothers me is this difference based on bot-preference – I can't quite see the meaning of it. | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | I'll think it over a bit longer and then add to the discussion at the spec if I still have something to say on it. | [13:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in principle i agree — it dun add anyffin useful. but i wrote orig bot for mp and so tried to implement his spec literally | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: how's it going with your mine work too? | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: sure; as it is, it's perfectly to spec and therefore absolutely correct. | [13:46] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: tbf it aint entirely as pictured in his spec (e.g. i took the liberty of citing each link on own line, to reduce truncation) | [13:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: My first post to younghands.club will address http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003475. Is that what it's for or is there a more formal spec for it's use? | [13:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 19:28:51 diana_coman: thimbronion: so write then first the fuckup thing; by Weds if you say that's enough time; think of what constraints would bring the WoT piece to something manageable over a 1-2 weeks term and state those/ask. | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if you want to make the toggle, don't hesitate, i'ma read & sign patch | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | imho this really oughta be an operator knob | [13:47] |
| asciilifeform: | ( prolly best way to implement it, is e.g. cited_bots=…,…, and then if speaker is a bot, citation is enabled only if said bot is in cited_bots ) | [13:48] |
| asciilifeform: | … this way, it would be possible to, for instance, disable citation strictly for some bot that has fallen out of sync | [13:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: since you have your own blog, I'd say it serves you best to write your stuff on your own blog so you have it there at any time later and use younghands.club for weekly plans+reviews. | [13:50] |
| asciilifeform: | cited_bots = bots would give the current behaviour. | [13:50] |
| diana_coman: | you are always welcome to write other/more posts on younghands.club too, there is no limit and no problem | [13:51] |
| diana_coman: | but essentially since it's your content, you'd naturally want it on your own blog, no? | [13:51] |
| diana_coman: | younghands.club is meant to be helpful 1. for keeping track of progress & getting timely feedback as I follow it 2. when/if one doesn't have own blog | [13:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok makes sense. I will post planning only on younghands. First post will be my plan for tackling the WoT piece. | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: sounds good. | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: at the risk of off-topic — how has been your experience of that moldavian hoster ? asciilifeform has been hunting for some places outside of piz to park certain things ( incl. own www, which is presently on a moribund heathen thing ; additional trb ; and potentially a pilot irc noad for trying to make a go of mp's 'motherfuckers, why are we on fleanode' thrust ) | [13:57] |
| asciilifeform: | while on subj, it seems odd to me that we have already 3 ( 4? ) independent logotrons but at same time all sit on fleanode. these boxes really oughta be relays , then the problem of 'sync logs' evaporates. and then can actually attempt the social engineering to link up with older irc nets ( mp raged that 'no one even tried' but atm there aint anyffin to link up, no one has relay ) | [14:01] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: hmm, I noticed that younghands.club doesn't show any of the "Visual" knobs when composing a post, at least not for me. I composed a chunk of it on my own blog with all the formatting and figured I could just paste the html in the "Html" window, but I can't seem to select that either. Is this a known bug or is this something wrong on my end? | [14:08] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: i was under the impression that mp-wp jettisoned the 'visual' knobs | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: let me see, I think I disabled it; 1 min | [14:10] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: it's actually enabled; do you mean you don't see the bar with the buttons ? or just the buttons or what? | [14:11] |
| diana_coman: | if you have it html, you need anyway the html tab – is that not working or what? | [14:12] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: I don't see the bar with the buttons at all. But yeah, more importantly the html tab dun seem to work | [14:12] |
| lobbes: | as in, I click it but it dun 'switch' | [14:13] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: I just logged in with your user and it ..does work | [14:13] |
| lobbes: | odd.. I'll try to log out then log back in | [14:13] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw on "visual" the icons on the buttons don't show; but switching the tabs works and buttons in html mode do show the icons etc. | [14:14] |
| lobbes: | weird, still won't 'switch' to html tab for me | [14:15] |
| lobbes: | maybe just a browser failure. I'm using chromium fwiw | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re moldavians, they have been reliable and *very prompt* so far; they have only Intel dedicated servers though but for what I need them I'm happy with them; | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | they *need* to be told /corrected basic stuff at times | [14:15] |
| diana_coman: | but they are happy to do once asked and without any weird airs or anything | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | and I just paid for 1 year with btc straight to address given too, no problem so far | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re multiple networks, I'm looking to help someone step up to that plate, but they need to be ready too; it will happen though. | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: I'm using firefox here. | [14:17] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i've actually yet to see heathens offer anyffin but intel boxen, in last decade or so | [14:18] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: I just tried with "iceweasel" but still to no avail. odd | [14:18] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: from my pov , moar concerned with quality of connectivity , and cost, in that order | [14:18] |
| lobbes: | In any case, I've got my working draft saved over on my personal blog for now. I guess we have time to figure it out before Oct | [14:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can plox elaborate re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003764 ? | [14:20] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 14:00:10 diana_coman: they *need* to be told /corrected basic stuff at times | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: what does it mean exactly "won't switch"? what happens, what's the state of the thing? | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [14:26] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 3d 0h 2m | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ossabot lost connection only once really (and that time iirc it was after a netsplit) | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | so I'm really quite happy so far; cheapest dedicated machine is 49 euros/month iirc ; | [14:27] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: notbad. | [14:28] |
| diana_coman: | re basic stuff: they initially sent credentials plain-text via email, no server fingerprint either; another time they messed up one invoice twice (first hilariously charging 1 month fees for a whole year of service, then upon me pointing out that yo, silly, they just did *12 instead of *10) | [14:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: initially — and then agreed to pgp ? | [14:29] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yep; I told them ahem, re-generate and encrypt, here's my public key and they simply did it, directly and without further fuss or anything. | [14:30] |
| asciilifeform: | neato. | [14:30] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: here's a screencap https://i.imgur.com/Cg7pBkk.png (i.e. I click on "HTML" tab and it remains "greyed out") | [14:30] |
| asciilifeform: | this is 1st time i hear of a heathen vendor seeing reason re pgp | [14:30] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I don't know if they saw reason beyond "she's paying nicely and she asked this of us" but I'm happy with that | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'm still chaffing from the time when i flew to europistan and met mp's barrister fella , and for no amt of fresh 100 $ , nor in 3 languages, could i get him to pgp | [14:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I suppose I'll actually do a write-up post on them, why not advertise them for tmsr anyway | [14:32] |
| asciilifeform: | a++ idea, will read | [14:33] |
| lobbes: | will also readx01 | [14:33] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: the weird thing is that shrysr initially had the same trouble iirc ; http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Jul-2019#999260 | [14:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-24 09:45:00 shrysr: yes I see both tabs. HTML is greyed out. presuming the visual mode is active – but there's just a text input box, with no formatting option. | [14:34] |
| lobbes: | I also wonder if I was dumb for *not* requesting the heathen vendor I deal with to encrypt, or also dumb because I paid in heathenbux instead of btc | [14:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: how did the visual/html thing get sorted out for you on younghands.club in the end? | [14:34] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: as a rule – always ask | [14:35] |
| lobbes: | makes sense | [14:35] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: hm, let me actually disable the visual mode, maybe you get just the html and be done with it | [14:35] |
| lobbes: | roger that | [14:36] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: try re-login now | [14:36] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: seems to do the trick! | [14:39] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: good then, I'll put it on the list to disable it on all new accounts. | [14:40] |
| lobbes: | tyvm for your help troubleshooting | [14:40] |
| diana_coman: | yw | [14:40] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003794 << you disabled visual editor ..that works for me since I write in org mode markup and export to html for younghands posts. Visual mode had no formatting options iirc. | [14:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 14:34:44 diana_coman: shrysr: how did the visual/html thing get sorted out for you on younghands.club in the end? | [14:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-24 09:47:00 diana_coman: I've deactivated the visual editor for you so hopefully you get only the html one | [14:45] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-24 09:45:00 shrysr: yes I see both tabs. HTML is greyed out. presuming the visual mode is active – but there's just a text input box, with no formatting option. | [14:45] |
| shrysr: | ah ok | [14:46] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003732 << lol. Okayish. The activity level/balance is still not as desired… but I've been making sure to have 'something decent' to show / explain for 'spot-whaddya-doing-questions'. I've also got the erp consultant doing some init work to jumpstart me into 'jinja' templating or whatever..to enable custom print formats of docs. I guess it will be useful | [15:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 13:45:42 diana_coman: shrysr: how's it going with your mine work too? | [15:20] |
| shrysr: | as exposure… fwiw (considering volatility) had brief run in with head orcs yest, it would seem that despite their init stupid remarks – my message did get across and they appear kindda satisfied. I guess, i'm a little surprised. fwiw – i am expecting activity level to reach the desired level once the plan to address skill deficit becomes clear as well. | [15:21] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ok. | [15:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: just in case it wasn't clear – I asked you re work-at-mines just to make sure you are keeping on top of that too, that's all; from what you say, you are, hence ok. | [15:53] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes I understood it as you just said, and totally appreciate you asking tbh. its definitely a danger point for me esp in current env, i.e neglecting it.. previous mines usually had somebody looking into things and better definitions of tasks… or lol, cd be said had some buffer against being shredded.. sure i align a reason for everything i do, but i guess I havent exp this extent of | [16:05] |
| shrysr: | mine-orcs-blindness perhaps.. its hard to keep up morale. | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, you need to keep an eye on it and not neglect it until you can move on. | [16:09] |
| shrysr: | yes. I will. | [16:11] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Sep-2019#1003718 << to some extent perhaps. I guess I've faced this particularly w.r.t data-hag – therez no 'standard' way of doing things…. and bucket-loads of hype.. It was terribly unsettling for a long time and thankfully much less so now. It's taken a long time to identify shit as shit and filter it and feel reassured that i'm not entirely on the wrong path | [16:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-24 13:37:23 diana_coman: shrysr: fwiw, it may be that you don't feel comfortable working with uncertainty essentially; it is curable, mainly through practice. | [16:24] |
| shrysr: | in terms of prep/thinking. Good example of filtering, which is how I found Matt Dancho.. and got a jumpstart in R through his courses and interacting with him. I've literally seen that 80-20 package list work via the erp project…. helped as well that he has a mech engg bg like me and is quite honest in interactions. | [16:24] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: as a basic rule, the "our quest is to prove these theories" is ~= "we are idiots" | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I know the appeal of "data-based approach" and "scientific analysis" but the substance is not at all solid just because "analysed data" or "it seems to work"; | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | basically the danger is that by the time you get to understand enough to even be able to see the ways in which the thing you bought from them is broken, it's way too late to not get hurt by it. | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | this is why it's actually *safer* to ignore all of them *especially* when you don't know anything about the domain; it's counterintuitive and possibly depressing, I know; it still is what it is. | [16:55] |
| shrysr: | i see your point. fwiw i don't think it is counter intuitive, if approached with sense ( and a great deal of it). However, it would also seem that not getting hurt/ being able to 'see as not solid' is largely abt keeping wits/open mind and not getting sucked into what is being bought right? You can ignore them all, but to learn – you need to find either a master, or a book or course.. or of course job. | [17:34] |
| shrysr: | Books /course are obv easiest to find… and even there it takes time to filter. | [17:34] |
#ossasepia Logs for 23 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003484 – no, this is perhaps "what whaack thinks" but most certainly not what everyone thinks. | [03:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 19:44:32 whaack: ssage one thinks: "well..thimbronion agrees to what? since he doesn't specify, this is a blank agreement to anything, which is worthless, and thus should be ignored" so the only damage done is the key signing "I agree" looks quite silly | [03:59] |
| diana_coman: | there are several layers to it but even at the most superficial level it's proof of such misunderstanding of gpg-contracts and the WoT that he's basically out of it entirely. | [04:04] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003486 – it's a clearer account of what you did so far at least; the task list works more as "what I already know/am aware of" with not much to show re actually looking around; overall it sort of scrapes by for now. | [04:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 20:15:36 whaack: diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1001998 <<>> http://ztkfg.com/2019/09/past-tmsr-work-potential-future-tmsr-work/ | [04:10] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 13:13:17 diana_coman: whaack: maybe make a summary with any tmsr-related things that you did so far and otherwise any tmsr parts/items you find interesting | [04:10] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: now that's done, there's http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 that is still pending afaik | [04:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:08:16 diana_coman: have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [04:11] |
| diana_coman: | welcome billymg ; what brings you here? | [04:13] |
| diana_coman: | for log readers, billymg followed from http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-22#1937645 | [04:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 21:50:52 billymg: anyway, ima swing by diana_coman's castle since there seems to be a cr convoy thread building over there | [04:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what happened there with week 10 review as it was initially on a different date and getting messed up; seems fixed meanwhile but what was it | [06:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: also, it's getting hard to follow the numbers by themselves, please add from now on the dates ie "Plan for week 12: 30/9 – 29/9" or similar | [06:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: mind running your script on lobbes's logs too ie comparing the #o logs from logs.ossasepia.com to those on logs.ericbenevides.com ? | [06:14] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: you are doing quite well there from what I see with planning and sticking to it on the mp-wp work but at any rate – would you find it useful to have also a more general plan+review for yourself on younghands.club? ie going beyond just this one mp-wp current task; maybe for 2 weeks/1 month stretches at a time? | [06:20] |
| auctionbot: | B#1060 O=127mn LB=None E=2019-09-23 18:42:01.635784 (18h41) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred | [08:49] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 0 total bids — | [08:49] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Yes the post was laying out in words my tmsr interests that were already in brain-ram, it was not the product of additional research done in the last week. | [10:00] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: I am strongly inclined to say yes I would like to submit to training should I be honored for you to take me. My reservation however is that I first want to be sure I fully understand what commitment it takes to submit. However, the reservation seems silly since if I understand http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/18/the-pageboys-pledge/ correctly I would naturally be "submitting to the judgement of how much judgment I su | [10:15] |
| whaack: | bmit to" | [10:15] |
| whaack: | Let me know if the above makes no sense, it is a point of confusion in my own head so i'm not sure it presents itself clearly. | [10:18] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: it does; and yes, you can't know upfront what you don't know, that's the inevitable issue facing everyone really; hence my "ask any questions you need to ask" – this means literally ask what you need to figure out if you trust me, because you will have to decide on precisely trust, nothing else. | [10:22] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: probably the above is of interest to you too. | [10:23] |
| diana_coman: | you can't have certainty of the sort "she'll ask me to do this and that, not the other" nor of the sort "it'll all be about x and y and z but not t; requiring q and y but not w"; simply because it can't be known upfront, no. | [10:26] |
| diana_coman: | another way of putting it is this: decide if you are better off on your own / under someone else or if you are better off throwing your lot in with mine because that's pretty much what it amounts to. | [10:28] |
| billymg: | diana_coman: whaack and i traded a few messages about our escape plans and he mentioned there was some discussion in here so i figured as he and i execute these plans any related discussion could occur here, in the event some bits are useful to others | [10:33] |
| diana_coman: | billymg: sure; feel free to ask/read around /figure out if there's anything else of interest. | [10:34] |
| billymg: | diana_coman: sounds good, will do | [10:34] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: (i interpret "it does" as "it does make sense" from the context) okay. well i feel more comfortable knowing that you understand that issue clearly. my intuition is that i do trust you, from reading the logs/your key's reputation. Already from asking advice in here i have been guided to set myself with a better living situation for an entire year. | [10:38] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: well, look at what is missing, if anything/unsure; (and yes, it was "it does make sense") | [10:40] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: tbh i don't have any pressing questions, but i don't want you to lose trust in me for not demonstrating scrutiny in choosing to work under you. i know myself to get excited at seemingly good opportunities and i just try to search for justifications to pull the trigger | [10:42] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the danger is more from the other end really ie if you say yes and then don't stick with it/vanish /fade away or something; because in that case I will negrate you guaranteed. | [10:43] |
| whaack: | that is also a concern of mine. but i think i need the threat of that axe to move forward lest i do the perpetual "thumb twiddling" | [10:44] |
| diana_coman: | aha, that sounds quite likely to be the case, yes. | [10:48] |
| whaack: | on a practical note – i am going to Japan for 2 weeks starting this Thursday on a vacation with a meatwot friend that has been planned months prior. after that i move to CR – and then I have my spot/time where with i can say with confidence that i will be in a situation where i can commit to training and work for the republic | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: feel free to take the time off to think it through (but do use it for that rather than for postponing); other than that though, note that commitment doesn't mean "won't take vacations anymore" for sure, lolz; and at any rate: do blog your Japan trip! | [10:50] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Japan certainly will be blogged! Well I do feel already decided; I don't feel the need to think it over in Japan – I would rather just have guidance on how to make best use of that trip. The only doubt I would have would be that perhaps asciilifeform or another lord is looking for someone and i would be better off serving them… but it seems you are the lord interested in training with younghands et all and woul | [11:01] |
| whaack: | d xfer me if that were the best option. | [11:01] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so ask them directly, why not ask? fwiw yes, I would send you to someone else if I think it's a better fit but I don't know if "transfer" is the word for it; for one thing, you're not a package to just transfer; for the other, you can't and shouldn't eschew choice; see http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/fog-of-war/#comment-43 | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | and going at it with lingering doubts is not helping at all either; because at first hurdle, the natural impulse will forever be "oh, but it would have been better if/with"; kill those doubts one way or another now and if you commit do it fully or it will backfire. | [11:10] |
| whaack: | makes sense. a "transfer" then would need to happen today rather than tomorrow. | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: it's certainly way easier today for everyone involved, precisely because things are quite straightforward: if you want to work with X, go and ask them what would it take for them to take you in; and just in case you have doubts re this point: nobody will mind. | [11:21] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: well then, what is required for you? | [11:22] |
| whaack: | brb ~10 minsx01 | [11:25] |
| diana_coman: | your full commitment as detailed in http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/18/the-pageboys-pledge/ and a reasonable fit (on which I'll judge after I probe to get to figure you out a bit better – there are already examples of this in the logs). | [11:27] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003516 << I just checked the formatting and it looks okay? It looked a little weird on my phone, but the computer shows it right… I needed to make a correction to it which was found after posting. | [11:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 06:11:05 diana_coman: shrysr: what happened there with week 10 review as it was initially on a different date and getting messed up; seems fixed meanwhile but what was it | [11:46] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003517 << Okay. | [11:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 06:13:04 diana_coman: shrysr: also, it's getting hard to follow the numbers by themselves, please add from now on the dates ie "Plan for week 12: 30/9 – 29/9" or similar | [11:47] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it wasn't just formatting; the first I looked at it, it was dated 16th (and as a result it didn't even appear in recent posts); probably at correction time the rest got fixed too and you didn't even notice; not a big thing in itself, just check when publishing, in the future. | [11:48] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: okay. i can dig through the logs to find the examples later but if you have a link handy that would help | [11:58] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: I meant examples of what probing tends to look like; see the conversation yest with thimbronion for instance); obv, can't tell upfront exactly what it will look like for you, lol. | [11:59] |
| whaack: | lol k | [12:00] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what date is that for finally moved to CR and ready to get started? | [12:02] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i do not yet have the flight ticket. It is going to be between October 15-September 1st. | [12:03] |
| diana_coman: | that's rather..difficult, lolz | [12:03] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: Re: date, hmm I corrected that last night actually right after posting. thats weird, cause i don't even set the post date. anyway, i will pay attention to it next post. | [12:04] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: just a quick check of eric's logs .. it appears there is a difference. ima rechecking to confirm. | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: did you subscribe with feedbot to the posts and comments on younghands.club and on your own blog? it helps so you also get to see what others see; at times I think your "update/tweaking" of posts also messes up with the rss. | [12:06] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: heh i'll try to get my ticket by the end of Wednesday. | [12:07] |
| shrysr: | Ahh – actually i have subscribed. I think you mean that trackback to week4 which i accepted only yesterday | [12:07] |
| shrysr: | hmm i think i have subscribed only to the comments of younghands though. | [12:07] |
| shrysr: | yea. only comments. | [12:08] |
| diana_coman: | no, this was on top of the above, not directly relevant to it. | [12:08] |
| whaack: | is off to the saltmines.x01 | [12:09] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: listen, you seem rather scattered/ with a tendency for superficial and I don't know if it's just that you are doing 1001 things right now and not properly focusing on any or it's a more general thing. | [12:10] |
| shrysr: | hmm.. one thing I rem doing different is trying the 'quick post' thingy which i aborted because it seemed I cd not set the category, only tags. The correction was anyway minor and I just copied the html output and clicked update. Hey > i logged in and checked post revisions for week 10 review – it says 23 sep tho | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: prolly on "clicked update" it was properly published including setting the date to current so yes, won't see any trouble *now*; let it be and just check/look next time. | [12:16] |
| shrysr: | okies | [12:16] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: is p.bvulpes.com down ? I have other sites loading. wanted to paste the diff i get. The lines are not missing, but there appears to be a mismatch in line id's? I re-checked with nosuchlabs – and diff was empty as before. See https://paste.debian.net/1102198 | [12:38] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: it died and ben vulpes is awol. use trinque's pastetron. | [12:40] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: ty. hope hez ok… diana_coman repasted diff for eric's log @ http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=iB4l | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: use paste.deedbot.org | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that's already on 1mn line and apparently lobbes's bot was on so it has a different time | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | look at the diff and compare http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=999999&iend=1000000 with http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=999999&iend=1000000 – the only difference is the timestamp on that line | [12:55] |
| shrysr: | ok. i see. | [12:57] |
| diana_coman: | so it's ok; but nevertheless, good that you pointed it out since it appeared to be a problem. | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | actually now looking at it: wtf why is my nickname there diana-coman all of a sudden for like..6 lines?? http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Aug-2019#1000000 – asciilifeform any idea? | [13:00] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-08 15:27:06 diana-coman: lolz, kk | [13:00] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: in mine also : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-08#1000000 | [13:02] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-08 15:27:06 diana-coman: lolz, kk | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: well yes, from 1mn on it's from your dump | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | hm; lemme check in my local log, maybe some fleanode shenanigans and nick changes | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: nop, in local log it's diana_coman there at that line precisely; some weird stuff at start of that dump /log somehow? | [13:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: but look at this: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=F7_o | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | so yeah, snsabot saw me as diana-coman for a while, lolz | [13:05] |
| asciilifeform: | ooops grr elbowed | [13:06] |
| diana_coman: | wb asciilifeform ; see paste above. | [13:06] |
| asciilifeform: | looksx01 | [13:06] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: my local log shows same btw ( as yours ) | [13:07] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: found any other instances of this oddity ? or only there ? | [13:07] |
| diana_coman: | it seems it was snsabot that flipped _ for – but how did it…auto-correct or what | [13:08] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, let's search | [13:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: fwiw nothing in the bot log that would suggest a cause | [13:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this was 8th aug. which is shortly after bot bringup… | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | I can't seem to find another instance at least while using the search box; might need to grep the dump; it's not a huge thing, I can live with it but it's…weird to not enough know wtf happened. | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | even* not "enough" | [13:10] |
| asciilifeform: | the only 'invasive' manipulation of the log db since, was the utf8 fixup. but i can't presently think of how it could be the culprit here | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | weird stuff; it does seem like an initial bot-hiccup that got fixed as a side-effect of later fixes I suppose. | [13:11] |
| asciilifeform: | !q s f:diana-coman | [13:11] |
| snsabot: | 6 results for "f:diana-coman" in #ossasepia | [13:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ loox like just there. | [13:11] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: this is pretty interesting find tho, because wtf, no changes were made to bot at that specific moment | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | aha | [13:12] |
| asciilifeform: | !q s f:- | [13:15] |
| snsabot: | 6 results for "f:-" in #ossasepia | [13:15] |
| asciilifeform: | same, fwiw | [13:15] |
| asciilifeform: | haven't found in e.g. #t any instance of mircea_popescu turning into mircea-popescu | [13:16] |
| asciilifeform: | so remains mystery. | [13:16] |
| diana_coman: | your bot played tricks on me!!111 | [13:16] |
| diana_coman: | funny how nobody noticed at that time though, when bot replied (or failed to speak up on it); anyways, it'll be filed as mystery for now. | [13:18] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ty for the eagle eye. and plox to lemme know asap if you find any similar oddity elsewhere in log | [13:36] |
| diana_coman: | np; and will do, certainly. | [13:38] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003571 << unfortunately i have to say it's a more general problem at the core of my self. i struggle to structure my day properly and to focus on a task at hand. it is from a mixture of lack of discipline and a dose of "frantic activity to cover for incompetence". as for a tendency to superficial – it's weird a weird thing to admit but that is true. i want that to change bu | [14:33] |
| whaack: | t i've grown up around superficial people, being a dilettante is basically considered a virtue in the US. i try to be genuine in what i do but i often go to the shortcuts/paths of least resistance | [14:33] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:54:21 diana_coman: whaack: listen, you seem rather scattered/ with a tendency for superficial and I don't know if it's just that you are doing 1001 things right now and not properly focusing on any or it's a more general thing. | [14:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am throwing an exception early on my first post. I'm only seeing one, maybe two layers of problems with the contract, not several, so with the time I have I won't be able to figure them all out by myself by Weds. Here is what I have so far: http://thimbron.com/2019/09/how-i-fucked-up-my-gpg-key/ | [14:45] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: and i believe the superficialness comes from self-defense mechanisms of my ego. here is an example of said self-defense mechanism: i had another blog before ztkfg.com at http://www.whaacked.com/ but reading it over and realizing how much stupidity/dishonesty was there for things like speccing out a game that took concepts from Eulora without citing it http://www.whaacked.com/blog/view/zylon-game-design.html and l | [14:47] |
| whaack: | inking to some blogs without sending trackbacks, i decided not to share it, always telling myself "oh i'll pull it into my new blog and then fix it all later" because that's one of the ego's protection tools: tomorrow, tomorrow | [14:47] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, that's why the order of the tasks was originally the other way around: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003465 | [16:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 19:18:20 diana_coman: thimbronion: 1 yes; 2 no, it's http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003386 | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: but it works as a reasonable statement of what happened; let it stand as such and move on to the WoT post. | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: good for you on admitting to it all; now, is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003541 still an actual doubt or just yet another protection/avoidance spew? | [16:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:01:46 whaack: diana_coman: Japan certainly will be blogged! Well I do feel already decided; I don't feel the need to think it over in Japan – I would rather just have guidance on how to make best use of that trip. The only doubt I would have would be that perhaps asciilifeform or another lord is looking for someone and i would be better off serving them… but it seems you are the lord interested in training with younghands et all and woul | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: maybe update that post to make it clear you are talking about a previous key though. | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: is this Japan-friend the emotional blackmail type? or how friend is this friend really. | [17:27] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 06:27:06 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Sep-2019#1002836 – you know, guilt-tripping is emotional blackmail; do you really imagine that your blackmailers are your friends? | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | and btw, I don't think you ever answered the above q. | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: re the 2 blogs – you can't run away from yourself; so do yourself a favour and stop trying to split: get the content in one single place, redirect the other domain so no links are broken and stick with it; it's fine to cringe at your own past-doings and it's even healthy because it IS a sign of growth. | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: fwiw, whaacked.com is an easier to remember domain than ztkfg.com | [17:48] |
| diana_coman: | and it's anyway a good idea to actually own your name online as everywhere. | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [17:56] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 2d 3h 31m | [17:56] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003628 << Well it is no longer a doubt after having spoken with asciilifeform. It may have been a protection/avoidance spew, but i can't recognize it as one myself. | [18:24] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 16:28:43 diana_coman: whaack: good for you on admitting to it all; now, is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Sep-2019#1003541 still an actual doubt or just yet another protection/avoidance spew? | [18:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 11:01:46 whaack: diana_coman: Japan certainly will be blogged! Well I do feel already decided; I don't feel the need to think it over in Japan – I would rather just have guidance on how to make best use of that trip. The only doubt I would have would be that perhaps asciilifeform or another lord is looking for someone and i would be better off serving them… but it seems you are the lord interested in training with younghands et all and woul | [18:24] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003520 << I cannot think of a reason to turn this offer down, so I will say 'yes'. Maybe at the one per month frequency. | [18:32] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 09:21:05 diana_coman: lobbes: you are doing quite well there from what I see with planning and sticking to it on the mp-wp work but at any rate – would you find it useful to have also a more general plan+review for yourself on younghands.club? ie going beyond just this one mp-wp current task; maybe for 2 weeks/1 month stretches at a time? | [18:32] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003633 << No, and you're not even the first person to point this out re this "friendship" with this particular person. | [18:32] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:11:52 diana_coman: and btw, I don't think you ever answered the above q. | [18:32] |
| lobbes: | to tie in that thread from #t into here: I see your point. I've made the decision to step into knighthood, and it isn't like there's a "cancel button", so I ought to make use of it. And if diana_coman is offering to gift reviewing of my general plans, I figure it is a good idea to accept | [18:34] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 20:33:24 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-15#1936552 – so regret your haste then and/or specific choice-avoidance but not your decision; it was made at that time and it's done; regretting the decision only puts you in a very awkward position moving on because now what – you'll be a knight who regrets his decision of being a knight? | [18:34] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 14:46:06 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-15#1936485 << because my decision was made hastily and prematurely imo. I don't think I needed to resign. I did so thinking I could eschew choice, but that is stupid; can't ever eschew choice wtf. And this dumb move will result in loss of coolness, as mircea_popescu pointed out; loss of privilege. | [18:34] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 12:57:02 diana_coman: I just realised that it was probably not clear above: my point was why regret the *decision*. | [18:34] |
| lobbes: | whaack: I'm looking forward to your bloggings on Japan btw. I've always wanted to visit there | [18:35] |
| lobbes: | For a small second I considered JP as a possible escape destination, but holy shit it sounds both expensive and hard to get permanent residency. Plus the language barrier is tall. South / Central America just seems more rational a destination w/ re: to both of those qualifiers | [18:40] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: lang is not half as difficult as it looks. moar serious problem is that it's a straight-out usg colony. | [18:41] |
| lobbes: | sure, but could always 'break free from yoke' one day, as I think you've pointed out before. (perhaps a slim chance, but who knows) | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: unlikely , imho, to happen before the 2e6-strong occupation army goes home. | [18:42] |
| asciilifeform: | but when it does, i dun expect it'll be a mega-seekrit. | [18:42] |
| lobbes: | makes sense | [18:43] |
| whaack: | whaack: is this Japan-friend the emotional blackmail type? or how friend is this friend really. << Long term friend from childhood. He is not the emotional blackmail type as far as i can tell, he wouldn't guilt trip about . But I will have to meditate on this. I feel with him I enjoy our time together, we do interesting new activities (like take a trip to Japan), but I am not quite sure I grow much out of the relati | [18:48] |
| whaack: | onship. | [18:49] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003635 << ztkfg.com was based on http://trilema.com/2014/why-everything-you-think-you-know-about-dns-is-entirely-wrong/ and grabbing a small character count. but i will consider switching to whaacked | [18:50] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:32:28 diana_coman: whaack: fwiw, whaacked.com is an easier to remember domain than ztkfg.com | [18:50] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003634 << ack. | [18:51] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:29:43 diana_coman: whaack: re the 2 blogs – you can't run away from yourself; so do yourself a favour and stop trying to split: get the content in one single place, redirect the other domain so no links are broken and stick with it; it's fine to cringe at your own past-doings and it's even healthy because it IS a sign of growth. | [18:51] |
| whaack: | lobbes: cool! I am going to Tokyo and Kyoto. I also am stopping in Seoul, Korea for a few days | [18:55] |
| thimbronion: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003630 updated. | [19:06] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 17:04:12 diana_coman: thimbronion: maybe update that post to make it clear you are talking about a previous key though. | [19:06] |
| thimbronion: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003627 << moving on | [19:07] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-23 16:25:07 diana_coman: thimbronion: but it works as a reasonable statement of what happened; let it stand as such and move on to the WoT post. | [19:07] |
#ossasepia Logs for 22 Sep 2019
| jfw: | I'm logged up from where I jumped in to present. My pace did pick up after Wednesday, and I found myself engaged. Sometimes I noticed I'd wandered off to composing imaginary responses in my head; I think that's more what happened Wednesday too, as opposed to unrelated daydreaming, and there was also some unscheduled blog reading. | [03:34] |
| jfw: | Now on to the "real" reading (from the top) and I'll see if I can make it a more purposeful thing per http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003144 | [03:36] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 04:20:16 diana_coman: iirc you had a question re what does it mean to train here – take the question and read the log with this goal ie as you read try to extract and refine gradually the answer to this question | [03:36] |
| jfw: | shrysr: if I followed rightly, http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-21-Sep-2019#1003256 is not surprising – if you aborted before reaching anywhere near 1000000 there'd be no log messages | [03:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-21 12:52:32 shrysr: diana_coman: re: lonngg – tbh i aborted after.. ~5 min hehe. but yes. hmm the funny thing was that nothing was written into the file after abort. each loop supposed to curl + append to a file …. so i expected a portion to be there. perhaps due to exec from emacs + org mode rather than terminal. will get back to that | [03:39] |
| jfw: | also perhaps worth pointing out that arithmetic done directly in bash uses fixed-width integers and will overflow, though presumably not on the scale involved here. | [03:43] |
| diana_coman: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003284 – why not compose those in writing? it can be a way of figuring stuff out (and at any rate, if you write it down, it's out of the way + it's pinned down so it can't shift and a later re-read will tell you if there's anything in there or not) | [03:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 03:34:01 jfw: I'm logged up from where I jumped in to present. My pace did pick up after Wednesday, and I found myself engaged. Sometimes I noticed I'd wandered off to composing imaginary responses in my head; I think that's more what happened Wednesday too, as opposed to unrelated daydreaming, and there was also some unscheduled blog reading. | [03:44] |
| jfw: | Some I did write in notes; it does sound good to capture more of them | [03:46] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003289 ty. what exactly happens when the overflow occurs? | [08:00] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 03:43:02 jfw: also perhaps worth pointing out that arithmetic done directly in bash uses fixed-width integers and will overflow, though presumably not on the scale involved here. | [08:00] |
| shrysr: | From what little I know – an integer or any data type is allocated a defined amount of memory, differing in each language (?) and by overflow you mean that the space is insufficient to hold the integer? | [08:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: specifically: there's a maximum number that you can represent on a given number of bits; one bit can hold only 0 or 1; 2 bits will be enough for 0,1,2,3; n bits are enough for 2^n-1 ; do you know why? | [10:02] |
| diana_coman: | if you try to store a value outside the range that can be represented on that precise number of bits, what happens is overflow/underflow (depending on which side of the available range that value is) | [10:04] |
| diana_coman: | at the very least, on underflow/overflow the given "result" will be rubbish (ie it will be a different value than you expect) | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | in some cases you can further end up with additional unpredictable effects (eg if the value is written on as many bits as required rather than as many as reserved) | [10:06] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003297 << haaa! i vaguely remembered this from vocational electronics class though i had to look it up just now. base 2 for eg 2^2 (2 bits) can represent 3 (4 incl 0) base 10 numbers as in 00, 01, 10, 11 and the largest number is 11 which translates to base 10 number 3 (converted via 8421 rule). 2^2 -1 = 3 numbers bc integers start from 0, but we count | [11:13] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 09:47:12 diana_coman: shrysr: specifically: there's a maximum number that you can represent on a given number of bits; one bit can hold only 0 or 1; 2 bits will be enough for 0,1,2,3; n bits are enough for 2^n-1 ; do you know why? | [11:13] |
| shrysr: | from 1.. | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: because binary, yes; and indeed, electronics is the basis, ofc. | [11:33] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-20#1003127 << argh, I apologize for the noob join/part spam. I left myself connected on my laptop and so the join/leave were either signals of me opening/closing the lid or the random internet reboots there. | [11:58] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 02:59:15 diana_coman: whaack_pura_vida: ffs, what are you doing there? do I need to kick you out so you set it up properly or what? | [11:58] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-20#1003125 << I have this. whaack connects through a znc bouncer hosted on pizzaro and my blog http://ztkfg.com/ is also hosted there. | [11:59] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 00:52:17 lobbes: damn whaack, dat connection. You ever consider shared hosting with pizarro? Best pipe I've ever experienced in terms of lack of drops (can't remember the last time my auctionbot disconnected) | [11:59] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: the bash-curl-diff thingy is finishedd.. diff is empty for <1mn. It can be called via parameters.. My WP aint letting me upload a .sh file for easy download due to 'security reasons'. is there a workaround ? or upload as txt file.. or leave as it is? | [12:00] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: lolz @ yours and not letting you; but yes, upload it as what it is – a text file after all; tbh I never uploaded non-images via WP | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you can ssh to your vps there, right? just upload it via scp or something | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003304 – ok, just don't do it again. | [12:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 11:58:38 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-20#1003127 << argh, I apologize for the noob join/part spam. I left myself connected on my laptop and so the join/leave were either signals of me opening/closing the lid or the random internet reboots there. | [12:22] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 02:59:15 diana_coman: whaack_pura_vida: ffs, what are you doing there? do I need to kick you out so you set it up properly or what? | [12:22] |
| shrysr: | yes can ssh and scp and will use that. and ok!! I understand the lolz :( — shd i look into making it allow .sh? | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: only if you actually want to upload executables via wp; the point is not as much that it should allow everything; the point is that if it's yours, then you won't take a no from it. | [12:27] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: ack. I will fix the problem by always using a bouncer and setting up a separate bouncer if needed for travel. | [12:30] |
| diana_coman: | hello thimbronion | [12:30] |
| thimbronion: | Hi diana_coman | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: sounds fine; re travel you can also simply disconnect when you are not actually using it; it's not like you have to be "seen connected" or something and you can always keep up with it via the logs. | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what brings you here? | [12:32] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: Yes. But I knew that I had to disconnect, and I simply forgot to do so. So I would like to "just remember" next time, but I'm not sure I can guarantee that will happen. | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: then probably best with a travel-bouncer indeed, yes. | [12:33] |
| thimbronion: | I am here per http://thimbron.com/2019/09/monitoring-the-chinese-news-feed/#comment-4 to ask for help. | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you read a bit the logs + outreach category ie did you figure out what this is about? | [12:35] |
| thimbronion: | Yes, I read back about 1 week of the logs and read the posts in that category. | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: specifically http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 | [12:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:08:16 diana_coman: have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [12:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: 1st question is, am I too old? I am not exactly a young hand at 41. | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: as previously stated in #t, not a problem: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926699 | [12:42] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-09 05:06:38 diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926567 -> inquisitive teenagers age irrespective sounds about right (not that I'd turn out a hard-working, knowledgeable adult bent on doing useful work, age irrespective) | [12:42] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-09 03:06:11 mp_en_viaje: incidentally, speaking of http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926225 : hanbot is taking teenaged / twentysomething females meeting the pizdi bill ; i presume asciilifeform is taking highly intelligent, shy & introverted males age-irrespective, math grad student prototype while diana_coman is taking inquisitive teenagers age irrespective and BingoBoingo latam… fe | [12:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: iirc Mocky is in his 60s, still went on expedition etc | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: as above, being 41 or any other number is not in itself a problem as fara as I can see. | [12:44] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: in that case, my 2nd question is can you help me figure out if what I am trying to do is worth doing? | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: perhaps; if you are applying for training here, I'll first try to get to know you better; if that works out, then yes. | [12:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am applying for training. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: btw, Mocky's really in his 60s?? I thought rather a bit younger, more like 40s-50s. | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so what have you been doing those 41 years? | [12:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Working as a software developer since 2003ish, raising a daughter for roughly the last 9 years. Reading Trilema and the logs for a while. Learning Attic Greek and most recently Chinese. Bitcoining since 2011. | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | interesting; where in the world are you? | [12:55] |
| thimbronion: | Northern California, Sacramento region. | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so what's with the Chinese link/interest or how did it come to you? | [12:58] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: As a kid I was curious so my mom got me a private teacher. Taught me once a week for a couple of years. Had studied Spanish but wanted to study something completely different. Also always thought Chinese girls were hot. Fast forwar to now, turns out Chinese have lots of influence and cash, seem like good people to have a relationship with. | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | you know, reading through your last posts, I can see quite a few useful things that you'll probably find interesting too | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: are you fluent in Chinese? are you actually looking to move out of the US? | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | do you have relations/contacts in China? | [13:06] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not fluent – maybe low intermediate. I am looking to leave US in the longer term but actually targeting CR. I do intend to travel to China, however. I have a tenuous connection with a translator in mainland China. Working on making it less tenuous. Currently the problem is extracting her direct contact info from my local contact and then paying her directly rather than through an | [13:09] |
| thimbronion: | intermediary. | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | not bad; why specifically CR? | [13:10] |
| diana_coman: | by the sounds of it CR will be tmsr-colonised in short order | [13:10] |
| thimbronion: | 1. I can speak spanish at sort of a low intermediate level. 2. Residency requirements are reasonable. 3. I like that I can escape the heat at higher altitudes. | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok but what do you plan to do in CR? | [13:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Mostly just not be in the US. I work remotely, and would likely continue to do so there. I should say that although I am in the process of getting my residency there (actually going there to get my id in Nov.) My plans for how to actually move down there are very vague. | [13:16] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: Which method are you using to get residency? And where in CR have you been? | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what are you working on at this job? | [13:18] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: rentista status. | [13:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: web development, full stack. | [13:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: also I am a consultant so it's not really a job. | [13:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I have to go afk for a bit. Will bbl. | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: k, we'll talk then some more. | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003334 – what is it exactly that you are trying to do? | [15:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 12:44:55 thimbronion: diana_coman: in that case, my 2nd question is can you help me figure out if what I am trying to do is worth doing? | [15:46] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: Mostly San Jose. Visited Atenas and Escazu. Did excursions to Arenal and Manuel Antonio. | [17:21] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: this is my attempt to explain what I want to do and why: http://thimbron.com/2019/09/preparing-to-join-ossasepia/ | [17:25] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: cool. i've been to San Jose a few times but otherwise I've almost always been on the west coast in Guanacaste. I may ask questions later about the rentista status. From my understanding it is difficult if you're doing software contract work, since you can't easily prove that that is a "steady source of income" | [17:25] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: hm, we'll need to come back to that then as it's not all that clear esp re "why"; what's the "bitcoining since 2011" mean exactly? | [17:28] |
| thimbronion: | whaack: I had my lawyer sign a letter with some magic words about my income – it was enough to get my application approved. I am working with some local immigration lawyers that are familiar with the process. | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | that sounds actually like a sensible way to go about it. | [17:29] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Bitcoining means owning bitcoin, figuring out how to hold it securely, reading about it constantly. | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: how come you found your way here only now though? or what gives? | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | by "here" I mean tmsr. | [17:32] |
| thimbronion: | I used to hang out in #bitcoin-assets under another nick, but I fucked up with my gpg key and had to leave. | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | how/what did you fuck up there? | [17:33] |
| whaack: | thimbronion: heh makes sense. hearing your success story is encouraging | [17:34] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I signed this: http://63.80.184.72/shared/agree.txt.asc | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: lol; why/how did you end up doing that anyway? | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | it can easily serve for a clear example of "be explicit, never implicit". | [17:39] |
| whaack: | lmao. what is the significance of a signature on a blank "I agree"? Other than it appears dumb, it doesn't really hold one to an obligation or anything..no? | [17:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I didn't understand the implications of signing such a document. | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: would you let me talk to the man for a bit. | [17:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I had even read the gpg contracts piece on Trilema. | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: re your question: think of it as a blank cheque machine (ie any number of copies anyone may want) | [17:42] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: the background was I was attempting to get my credits for writing a qntra piece. | [17:42] |
| whaack: | whaack: would you let me talk to the man for a bit. < yes, i'll excuse my questions until later. | [17:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok, but why "had to leave"; I mean yes, you obv needed to learn some more + get born again (new key) but as long as lesson fully learnt, what's the trouble | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | worth noting that there is potentially the hanging question of what was learnt, since/if it's not publicly stated anywhere | [17:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I felt extremely embarrased. That said, I created a new account immediately called thortron – you can see in the logs. I just did know how proceed. It was all very embarrassing. | [17:47] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: that is indeed the hanging question and well deserving of a writeup. It as yet does not exist. | [17:48] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: aha; as to embarrassing sure but you know, better go through it then and there rather than living with it for whatever many years afterwards; anyway, /me will read the old logs; what's your actual name? | [17:51] |
| thimbronion: | Adam Thorsen | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | nice to meet you; somehow for all the coolness of nicknames, I find I'd much rather use people-names. | [17:52] |
| thimbronion: | Nice to meet you as well. | [17:53] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you always work as web dev full stack ? what did you like about it anyway? | [17:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't particularly enjoy it. I did not always – for a few years I worked for the DoD prototyping various research projects. I then moved to the SF Bay area and started doing web dev for my own and other startups. It is a role I sort of fell into and did not actively seek. | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what did that prototyping involve? and what do you actually enjoy? | [18:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: For example, one prototype I worked on that was unclassified involved encrypting portions of documents at different classification levels. | [18:05] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: as for what I actually enjoy it's mostly learning and speaking foreign languages. | [18:07] |
| BingoBoingo: | thimbronion: Welcome back | [18:08] |
| thimbronion: | Thanks BingoBoingo. | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's that bitmessage thing and who is "we" from "gernika: Yes it's compatible. It runs pybitmessage in the background without the qt UI (we made our own UI). Yes there are plans for a cross platform client, but that's a ways off. " ? | [18:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | diana_coman: Bitmessage was a sort of "rebuild irc on a blockchain with ~2 week history limit" | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | I see; but still quite curious re thimbronion's own description of it. | [18:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I had contributed some work to a distributed market called Bitmarkets: https://voluntarylabs.org/bitmarkets/. The we is the other people working on it. There is a wiki article that lists the main dev if interested. | [18:13] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Bitmessage was a python based distributed messaging platform that "charged" users with CPU time to send messages. The details are very vague for me at this point. | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: understand that people you are working with *are* important, yes; you know, atm this is btw your main problem to solve ie get to build some actual trust with people around here esp if you want to China. | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: link to that wiki article? or list of names please | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | voluntarylabs as a name, ugh; I suppose frogs, mice and rats "voluntary" for the labs, I can see it. | [18:18] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Steve Dekorte is the main dev. I've tried to get him into Trilema, but he is not interested in any way. He can't read it. https://infogalactic.com/info/Bitmarkets. | [18:20] |
| BingoBoingo: | initially read that last name as "Depakote"x01 | [18:21] |
| diana_coman: | "Bitmarkets operates over the Tor anonymity network" , oh boy. | [18:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ok; but how did you know /fall in with those guys? | [18:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman The other dev was Rich Collins, who I occasionally do consulting work for. There is a designer based in the UK that also contributed – blanking on the name. | [18:22] |
| diana_coman: | as to "can't read trilema" well, that's their problem really. | [18:23] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes I have not worked on the project for some time and I don't think it's actively being developed. I was unable to persuade him that Tor was bs. | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | for future readers, the list of authors bitmarkets+bitmessage reads: steve dekorte, rich collins, adam thorsen, chris robertson. | [18:24] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I met Steve through Rich. I met Rich at the first Ycombinator thing in Boston. We moved to California together and worked on a startup. | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | ycombinator, oh my. | [18:25] |
| thimbronion: | oh yes. | [18:25] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose I'll end up liking you just for surviving *that many* idiocies. | [18:25] |
| thimbronion: | I disavow ycombinator. I disavow PG. | [18:26] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: not bad for a start for sure | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: any more things you'd rather disavow? | [18:27] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I disavow ruby on rails. Although I still pay some bills with it. I disavow the USG. | [18:29] |
| thimbronion: | I disavow California. | [18:29] |
| diana_coman: | ha; what did California do? | [18:29] |
| thimbronion: | It charged me a shit ton of income tax. Made it hard to carry guns, hosts Silicon Valley, and has become largely a one-party state. | [18:31] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003409 << this appears to be empty btw | [18:33] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 18:04:23 thimbronion: diana_coman: Steve Dekorte is the main dev. I've tried to get him into Trilema, but he is not interested in any way. He can't read it. https://infogalactic.com/info/Bitmarkets. | [18:33] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I could load the page | [18:33] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it loads, but i see a 'There is currently no text in this page.' | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, it …did what it could! but yes, I see your point there; so how about that startup? how did it go, do you still work with that guy? | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I saw it but on the public toilet, perhaps that's why/some shit | [18:34] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003415 << afaik after the 2014 trials, the only folx who 'remain unpersuaded' are the pushers (e.g. usg honeypot operators) | [18:35] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 18:08:19 thimbronion: diana_coman: yes I have not worked on the project for some time and I don't think it's actively being developed. I was unable to persuade him that Tor was bs. | [18:35] |
| thimbronion: | asciilifeform, diana_coman: https://imgur.com/a/hir4LTf | [18:36] |
| diana_coman: | I honestly don't know why would one spend the time to persuade the stubborn; maybe only the stubborn-they-loved-otherwise but well, how many of those already. | [18:36] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: nm, it was the '.' in the link | [18:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I do not work with Steve. I may do consulting work for Rich in the future. | [18:38] |
| thimbronion: | Oh the designer's name should be Chris Robinson. | [18:38] |
| thimbronion: | He does this: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvrLvII5oxSWEMEkszrxXEA | [18:41] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: but how did it go then from working on a startup with him to may do consulting work for him? | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you know, reading from old logs, I think you should write what you figured out in the end re WoT | [18:47] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Our startup was dumb and went nowhere. We then worked on some other dumb startups for a guy named Sunil Bhargava. These went nowhere. Steve knew a guy named Dru who worked for a company called Brightroll. Dru gave Rich a contract that eventually became pretty large. Meanwhile the yc startup I had been working for had been almost completely digested by Motorola – I was working day to day | [18:48] |
| thimbronion: | with mostly Indians. Rich had an opening so I took it. | [18:48] |
| thimbronion: | Dru Nelson. | [18:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will write. | [18:49] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: and do you run now your own consultancy business or what? | [18:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I have an LLC that I work through. I don't have any of my own clients. I go through a real consultancy based in Minneapolis called Livefront. | [18:52] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, how is your consultancy not "a real consultancy"? | [18:53] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I do not go out and find clients. I don't work directly with clients. Mostly – I did for about a year in 2018. That company was called txt2give. | [18:54] |
| diana_coman: | I see; and meanwhile found in old logs the more detailed story too, so it makes sense. | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: iirc you made an eulora account too? | [18:58] |
| thimbronion: | I did. | [18:58] |
| diana_coman: | did you play? or did you get stuck on the mac-os trouble or what? | [18:59] |
| thimbronion: | I was able to log on – I didn't play much. I had eye surgury around the time I first got on. I am actually not that into games though, and didn't get back into it after my eyes healed. I was kind of interested in storing some money in Eulora's in-game currency. | [19:01] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003299 << hope its okay to ask atm – given the unpredictability, are specific safe-guards built so that this never happens? it sorta sounds like such an overflow cd even be used maliciously? | [19:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 10:06:59 diana_coman: in some cases you can further end up with additional unpredictable effects (eg if the value is written on as many bits as required rather than as many as reserved) | [19:03] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: in Ada yes (ie your program will die on the spot); not everywhere though; and yes, it is precisely a very common exploitable hole. | [19:04] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: your lengthy but curiously sterile history cuts both ways here to such extent that I can't quite say how come so long around here and so little to show for it; write those 2 posts that came about and let's see how it goes. | [19:09] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ok.. i was thinking abt banks and other applications with v. large numbers, and how they would account for it… as a generic system when they dont always know before-hand how big the number would be.. So the coder shd always know how the language / library accounts for under/overflow i presume? shd i be reading up on this? | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: questions? | [19:15] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: the two posts being 1) what I figured out re: WoT and 2) http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003367 why do I want to publish news coming out of China and likbez in Chinese? | [19:17] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 17:12:17 diana_coman: thimbronion: hm, we'll need to come back to that then as it's not all that clear esp re "why"; what's the "bitcoining since 2011" mean exactly? | [19:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the way you state it is way too open-ended to meaningfully attack; ie you can "read up on this" until the end of days really; the coder should know and esp should take the time to make sure no-overflow/underflow – when one relies on a pile of shit, this becomes de facto impossible; hence: don't rely on a pile of shit is just about the core of it. | [19:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: 1 yes; 2 no, it's http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003386 | [19:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 17:46:10 diana_coman: worth noting that there is potentially the hanging question of what was learnt, since/if it's not publicly stated anywhere | [19:18] |
| diana_coman: | re China fwiw there would be quite an opening there but before you can meaningfully work directly on that, you need essentially a better WoT presence; so I'd say continue with your preliminary work of building up contacts for now. | [19:19] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am not clear on the difference between these two topics. Can you clarify? | [19:19] |
| diana_coman: | it's not as much about "news" but rather way more concrete stuff, if you make it all the way there. | [19:19] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: one focuses on what the WoT is, how it works and why (see the cannonical trilema.com ref + revisit the old explanations/discussion in the logs if you need to); two is about your specific mistake, how and why you fucked up + what you learnt from it; they are related ofc but not exactly the same thing and the focus is different (the wot; you) | [19:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Got it. Thanks. | [19:22] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: np; when do you think you'll have them done? | [19:22] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I feel like I could write up the fuckup by say Weds. Regarding the WoT, it depends on the level of detail required. I could see myself spending a lot of time on that without some sort of constraints. | [19:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and once you finally get yourself on top of the current still-standing pile – ahem – of tasks, you'll get to see exactly how it's done properly for very long numbers that are not known upfront (and don't even fit in the standard types) – ie. asciilifeform's FFA | [19:26] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so write then first the fuckup thing; by Weds if you say that's enough time; think of what constraints would bring the WoT piece to something manageable over a 1-2 weeks term and state those/ask. | [19:28] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: Ok will do. | [19:29] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: cool; and ask if stuck/unsure. | [19:29] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok I will. | [19:30] |
| diana_coman: | goes to sleep.x01 | [19:30] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: good night! | [19:32] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Sep-2019#1003474 << i'm on it and def will. | [19:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 19:26:24 diana_coman: shrysr: and once you finally get yourself on top of the current still-standing pile – ahem – of tasks, you'll get to see exactly how it's done properly for very long numbers that are not known upfront (and don't even fit in the standard types) – ie. asciilifeform's FFA | [19:32] |
| whaack: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003383 <– but the differences is a blank check is signed and then someone can take the signed blank check, and write in the amount to send and who to send it to, and then this cannot be distinguished from a genuine check made out to that person for this amount. But no one can append anything to thimbronion's signature on the words "I agree" So when one reads this signed me | [19:44] |
| whaack: | ssage one thinks: "well..thimbronion agrees to what? since he doesn't specify, this is a blank agreement to anything, which is worthless, and thus should be ignored" so the only damage done is the key signing "I agree" looks quite silly | [19:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-22 17:26:48 diana_coman: whaack: re your question: think of it as a blank cheque machine (ie any number of copies anyone may want) | [19:44] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1001998 <<>> http://ztkfg.com/2019/09/past-tmsr-work-potential-future-tmsr-work/ | [20:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 13:13:17 diana_coman: whaack: maybe make a summary with any tmsr-related things that you did so far and otherwise any tmsr parts/items you find interesting | [20:15] |
| lobbes: | whaack: re: blank check message: as you say, because of the history of that key's output, anyone reading future output of that key now has the added cost of needing to decide if to ignore said output. The trust of that key drops as a consequence. Some may decide it is just cheaper to ignore ALL output from the key as a cost-saving rule. | [20:29] |
| lobbes: | Not only that, but just because whaack evaluates "blank agrees to anything = void" doesn't mean someone else will (or that they won't try to use it as leverage for something or other). That also increases the cost for everyone else dealing with that key (who know *what* that key might be agreeing to somewhere in the world) | [20:29] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack: imho pretty good piece. and btw if you end up taking up #5, i invite you to join #asciilifeform also, and dun hesitate to ask q's as you do the homeworks | [20:59] |
| billymg: | hiya diana_coman! | [21:51] |
| billymg: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002793 << can add billymg to this list, quit the day i moved to texas and haven't had the slightest inclination to start back up since | [21:52] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 14:05:30 lobbes: whaack_pura_vida: I was a heavy pothead for about a decade. I still will probably smoke it again ~someday~ (I still have some in my apartment, in fact), but I live alone these days and have not even had the desire to touch it for last coupla months | [21:52] |
| whaack: | heya billymg. I wound up closing this lease on my last day in my week long CR trip http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1002988 | [21:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 17:11:21 whaack_pura_vida: diana_coman: house hunting was going poorly as of this morning, but now i have a lead on a place owned by a tica w/ an ocean view for 50/mo + utilities. | [21:54] |
| billymg: | whaack: congrats! | [21:54] |
| billymg: | tamarindo? | [21:55] |
| whaack: | thank you! it is actually only 00/month. it's a humble studio apartment, but it has an A+ view and the beach is my backyard | [21:56] |
| billymg: | i'm close on mine, a few more weeks hopefully, it's inland a bit but the closest beach would be tamarindo iirc | [21:56] |
| whaack: | Great, I'd be happy to help if you need someone in person to check stuff out. I'll be back by the end of October. | [21:58] |
| billymg: | nice, will keep it in mind. i planning on maybe making it down for a quick trip in mid-october, but more likely will be down in january when i'm actually ready to move | [22:00] |
| whaack: | asciilifeform: tyvm. will do re joining #asciilifeform and asking ffa related questions there. | [22:02] |
| whaack: | billymg: the place is about 30 mins south of tamarindo | [22:06] |
| billymg: | whaack: cool cool | [22:10] |
#ossasepia Logs for 21 Sep 2019
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003228 << why! | [00:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 20:51:31 asciilifeform: diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [00:31] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003228 – lolz! but if you mean that literally, they basically own ~everything in this Maranello little town so they sell also…pen and paper (with ferrari logo! in ferrari-trademarked red colour!) | [03:40] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 20:51:31 asciilifeform: diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [03:40] |
| diana_coman: | the rest was a very corporate-style thing actually (well, softened at the edges by italian interaction style for sure but still); | [03:42] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003226 – ftr I didn't work *for* them, just *with* them during one collaborative project ferrari-university, involving their programming team (they do use all sorts of software but generally made in-house) | [03:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 19:11:59 shrysr: i would think if there was any meaning in the automotive world… it would be @ Ferrari :) .. or perhaps some kindda F1 team. | [03:44] |
| diana_coman: | well, at least they *did*, that was already more than 10 years ago, no idea now. | [03:45] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003229 – cool. | [03:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 21:12:31 jfw: I discovered I had some sleep and work review/planning debts to pay; nearing the end of that and will get back to log catchup shortly. | [03:47] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003228 – come to think of it, I'd have that image re Bugatti rather. | [03:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 20:51:31 asciilifeform: diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [03:54] |
| shrysr: | hohum 998683 be the first line of #o it appears.. and 100 to 1000000 takes longggg time to curl… lol. | [12:04] |
| shrysr: | hmm pen&paper shops are still super super cool. I dig nice stationary… dot grids + mechanical pencils. More abt function than form since me poooor, though ofc ferrari tm stuff wd be so sexy to add to collection. No idea what they cost. | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes re line numbers, it doesn't start from 0 since it was made to "fit before the bot started" rather than "this is start" | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re 100 to 1mn – since you go 500 lines at a time, you can…calculate how long is "longggg", lolz; | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | some pens were ~10 euros or there but to me they were still just… overpriced pens. | [12:28] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-21#1003233 << meant 'design with ink instead of comp' | [12:35] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-21 03:25:00 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003228 – lolz! but if you mean that literally, they basically own ~everything in this Maranello little town so they sell also…pen and paper (with ferrari logo! in ferrari-trademarked red colour!) | [12:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 20:51:31 asciilifeform: diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [12:35] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: hehe such items over priced alwayz i guess. i wd presume they just buy their pens from sm mftr and re-brand… i have this roll up thingy with little loops where i place each pencil. :( brought just a few when i shifted. particularly pencil because paper quality is so variable…and handwriting quality suffers with ball pens. you don't get anything much in india w.r.t mech pencils. I mostly | [12:39] |
| shrysr: | researched and got em on trips. | [12:39] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-21-Sep-2019#1003247 << believe almost all auto companies have designers who do the ink based conceptual design. The final product is usually quite far from the sketches…perhaps less so in case of ferrari lambo types, but all of em def use computers (CAD+ aero+ structural+ engine tuning+ +) for sure. | [12:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-21 12:35:52 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-21#1003233 << meant 'design with ink instead of comp' | [12:43] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-21 03:25:00 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003228 – lolz! but if you mean that literally, they basically own ~everything in this Maranello little town so they sell also…pen and paper (with ferrari logo! in ferrari-trademarked red colour!) | [12:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 20:51:31 asciilifeform: diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [12:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re: lonngg – tbh i aborted after.. ~5 min hehe. but yes. hmm the funny thing was that nothing was written into the file after abort. each loop supposed to curl + append to a file …. so i expected a portion to be there. perhaps due to exec from emacs + org mode rather than terminal. will get back to that | [12:52] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: why the limit of 500 lines? | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the limit is basically a bit of a throttle ie you don't want to get the whole thing stuck because someone asked for 10mn lines or something. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | there is no such thing as infinite resource, no matter what resource you are talking about. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re empty, you were also asking for non-existent lines. | [13:45] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: y'know, i pulled the 500 number outta air. could easily set to anyffin else. | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | it's in the config. | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | (ideally imho we all oughta have that knob set to same # tho) | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yeah, I know it's random but the "why is it there" at all is still the above. | [14:23] |
| jfw: | is still alive and catching up.x01 | [16:18] |
| jfw: | I can confirm http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Jul-2019#998683 is the start of the available log, based on awking & sorting the db dump | [16:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-14 11:01:00 diana_coman: lol, that was one QUICK look | [16:19] |
| diana_coman: | yes, that's the start. | [16:21] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: something I realized I'm not clear on is whether in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002526 you were advising I should decide on applying to submit to training prior to further work on blog setup | [16:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:32:55 diana_coman: jfw: at any rate, before "what task", you'll need to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 ; | [16:24] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: no; prior to expecting me to help you pick a task though. | [16:25] |
| jfw: | ahh ok, ty | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | np; it's worth pointing out too that the sooner you decide (either way), the better for you. | [16:40] |
| jfw: | makes sense, otherwise I'm the web page that wastes time by sitting there 'loading…' rather than returning either content or error | [16:45] |
| asciilifeform: | jfw: i have a vague memory that you inquired at some pt about FG ? do you know about bvt's research ? maybe can contribute to this | [17:51] |
| asciilifeform: | ( if so, jfw , yer in the right place, diana_coman is currently the heaviest industrial user of FG ) | [17:54] |
| jfw: | ty asciilifeform, I have an FG at hand and a couple in inventory; I am not up to speed on bvt's research, will add to reading list. | [18:03] |
| jfw: | I have been known to use it via 'ln /dev/ttyUSB0 /dev/urandom' but then realized this was unsafe because urandom spec guarantees to fill up to some number of bytes while tty doesn't, def interested in proper kernel integration | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | jfw: oh hey you have fg ? neato | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | jfw: bvt's project is , approx., to make it so that FG can actually replace /dev/random & /dev/urandom , incl. at boot time | [18:12] |
| asciilifeform: | jfw: orig thread re subj , in his comments | [18:13] |
| jfw: | cool, and I take it from the title that this pulls in a whole kernel genesis spittoon | [18:16] |
| asciilifeform: | indeed it does | [18:16] |
#ossasepia Logs for 20 Sep 2019
| lobbes: | damn whaack, dat connection. You ever consider shared hosting with pizarro? Best pipe I've ever experienced in terms of lack of drops (can't remember the last time my auctionbot disconnected) | [01:08] |
| lobbes: | slap an irssi on it, and boom, problem solved | [01:08] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: ffs, what are you doing there? do I need to kick you out so you set it up properly or what? | [03:14] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003117 – sounds like you crack the bash+curl+diff, well done; do the write-up and publish it on your blog, who knows what it grows into/when you'll need to ref back to it. | [03:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-19 17:31:02 shrysr: diana_coman: hmm – i tried the raw log for id > 1000000 – both visual and diff inspection seem to indicate they are still the same, i.e in reference to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003089 ? | [03:18] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, the differences will start appearing only at the point where each bot relied on his own recording of lines. | [03:19] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:53] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 0h 27m | [03:53] |
| jfw: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003081 << I was; specifically 'I will get back to i | [03:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-19 12:37:02 diana_coman: jfw: weren't you saying something about getting back on Wednesday aka yesterday? | [03:56] |
| jfw: | t on Wednesday', by which I meant the looking around. Which I did. But I confess it occurred to me I should at least post a "here I am, reading", and it now seems to me I certainly should have since I brought the day up in the first place, so for neglecting that I'm sorry. | [03:57] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: aha, a sign of life is all it takes; no worries; and ask questions whenever things are not clear. | [04:10] |
| jfw: | I worked on catching up with the current log from were I'd left off, but didn't make it through the 18th, a pace that has me worried about finishing a full readthrough any time soon. I know I have room to improve in staying focused. If anyone has suggestions on eating log faster (while still comprehending adequately) I'm all ears | [04:10] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: so how many words/hour did you get to read there or how do you measure it? | [04:11] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: re focused – do you mean while reading (ie you start reading and then just wonder off) or what? | [04:13] |
| jfw: | haven't figured words/hr here, probably should. Yeah, mind wanders | [04:14] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: is this usual for you (ie on ~anything you read) or just log-specific? | [04:16] |
| jfw: | depends on the material I think. Might just be I tried to pack in too much this time | [04:17] |
| jfw: | I've previously measured ~1k words/hr on #trilema by the btcbase word counts, with some notetaking | [04:18] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: well, "mind wanders" when specific like that to one thing is essentially "not engaging" ; now if it's not engaging because too tired or because doesn't yet make sense, only you can tell at this stage | [04:19] |
| diana_coman: | iirc you had a question re what does it mean to train here – take the question and read the log with this goal ie as you read try to extract and refine gradually the answer to this question | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | it helps to give you some grounding and a path to engage the whole | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: I wouldn't have thought that #o logs are harder to read than #t but dunno – do you find them harder to read? | [04:21] |
| diana_coman: | (there were a few days of long logs in here for sure, but not really *all* days are that long) | [04:21] |
| jfw: | Not harder, no, but perhaps feeling a need to be more thorough | [04:27] |
| jfw: | Heading to bed shortly; I'll be at it again tomorrow and will see if I can be more observant of what brain is up to. | [04:30] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: ! | [08:22] |
| diana_coman: | are you even there? | [08:22] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-20#1003128 << yeahh…as you said it was not as difficult as i thought, though curl has a lottaa functions and I havent gone into them at all… write-up already underway in parallel, literate programming style. I went a little further by implementing conditionals and now plugging in a for loop .. never done these with bash. I guess it shd be all done today | [11:12] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 03:02:46 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003117 – sounds like you crack the bash+curl+diff, well done; do the write-up and publish it on your blog, who knows what it grows into/when you'll need to ref back to it. | [11:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-19 17:31:02 shrysr: diana_coman: hmm – i tried the raw log for id > 1000000 – both visual and diff inspection seem to indicate they are still the same, i.e in reference to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003089 ? | [11:12] |
| shrysr: | and i can get back to analysis 2. | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you certainly need a for loop if you want to be able to actually compare a full set of lines between some given indices, ofc | [11:19] |
| diana_coman: | re curl – it's not like you need to fully know *all* of it right now, lolz; take it easy, there is time and you'll probably need it again sooner rather than later – when you do, you'll get to know it better and so on. | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: does your bash script have parameters? ie so one can run it ./check 100 100000 logs.ossasepia.com/ossasepia logs.nosuchlabs.com/nosuchlabs ? | [11:22] |
| diana_coman: | as a general approach: you first figure out how to do the thing you want manually (as in one full step of it) and once you got that, you proceed to write the bash script to automate it for the more general case. | [11:23] |
| diana_coman: | as a bonus with the above approach, it has a baked in clear "stop" – since you know what it should do, you also know when it's done and you don't end up wasting your time adding useless "functionality" | [11:25] |
| shrysr: | re parameters, no not yet – i did plan to make it that way though since that seemed most convenient… and thought that wd be the last step when the base is working, i.e pretty much as you said.. i guess you will see the steps in the post as well, started with a single curl and worked up to variables, i.e the log links, istart and iend and conditionals. yes, i am trying to first plot out steps and then | [11:30] |
| shrysr: | stick to them and not bloat it. I've enjoyed it actually, a lot better than following a typical data-hag tutorial tbh. | [11:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: heh; you know, I seriously doubt you'll enjoy actual "data analysis work" as much as you convinced yourself you will. | [11:32] |
| shrysr: | tbh i've shared that doubt since a long time. Re-emphasised by this erp stuff. no system can 'enlighten dumbos entering anything they like. ML is the only part that is actually exciting, or even the backend stuff they call data engineering nowadays is better than data analysis. tbh: as i've thought more abt it.. particularly in light of tmsr + eulora – i think i'm no longer.. terribly focused on enjoying | [11:42] |
| shrysr: | it. From the JD exploration so far – it still supports that there are way more companies in the comp sci / analytics field in canada. I've had a lazy eye on mech engg job positings fwiw but you know – nothing has really changed in terms of skills they want and what I've managed to scrape together here…v/s being unemployed before. | [11:42] |
| shrysr: | also as discussed earlier.. vancouver does have R+python significantly higher than calgary, so I've been adding them this week. well, more like calgary has negligible 'R'. Does help some of the companies are based in both calgary and vancouver. | [11:47] |
| diana_coman: | that's fine, the point was simply to not feed illusions re what it'll be like, nothing more. | [11:49] |
| diana_coman: | btw, should probably add that ML is *also* unlikely to be as fascinating as it seems from a distance; the *promise* of ML is great, the reality however is rather… far from the promise. | [12:37] |
| shrysr: | :))… I'm inclined to agree on that as well from what little i know/have done. Relatively fascinating compared to cleaning data!! perhaps its more like human-whipping-machine-to-create-impression-of-some-retarded-learning atm, that too where the human is not retarded? easier to call it ML :D. Perhaps just the dangling carrot ahead of data-cleaning stick. Why use ML n exotic crap anyway if an excel sheet | [13:01] |
| shrysr: | brings ROI? hehe, why use excel sheet if scribbled note sufficient to make money? (was asked this recently). I meant exciting as in – theres some theory atleast, and one can atleast afford to cook up small experiments on relatively affordable gear away from mine… presuming interesting data available. Even if salt-minez dont give a shit…all for fun, that can perhaps lead to something useful … someday? | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: as you just experience, cooking up interesting stuff takes simply your computer and a meaningful purpose :D | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | experienced* | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | the theory – such as it is – is, well, Maths | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, sure, it *is* interesting and at any rate, totally useful to be actually able to make sense of things, certainly | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | just… not much "machine learning", no | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | the power of the machine as much as there is stands mainly as brute power really | [13:25] |
| diana_coman: | fascinating perhaps, why not; but brute power, without reason; to be used and employed as best as you can think of (and the better you can think of using it, the better for you) but not to be asked to figure things out for you | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | there is this distinction between data (raw figures of any kind), information (data+context) and knowledge; the machine works with data; perhaps one can argue that in some carefully designed cases, it may attain "information" – or rather mimic it to some degree | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | however, that's about as far as it goes. | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | the text mining field is probably a good example in this sense – for all the effort spent and all the various models put forward, the truth is that they all "work" only within very, very narrow spaces and for very limited definitions of "works"; and even that, only *if* carefully fitted (over-fitted really) by a human. | [13:36] |
| diana_coman: | not to bring you down or anything, quite on the contrary, to not feed false hopes that will just come crashing down like a ton of bricks. | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | I did my Master's precisely on "Data Mining", precisely because "amazing", precisely on "using ML for breast cancer detection because OMG, wouldn't that be great" | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | it was a good cure indeed but a cure for my naivity regarding the domain, not of that much use to those affected by breast cancer, what can I say. | [13:39] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the 'machine learning' thing always seemed to me as a rebranded/repainted resurrected corpse of 1980s 'expert systems' fad. was always curious re the exact chronology of this resurrection/rebranding, but never quite enuff to dig | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: afaik the expert systems actually made it to some degrees esp in medicine; but it's still pretty much the sad "can search faster through a large pile of match-this-to-that" rather than any machine learning | [13:41] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: no, i get you. the above is in fact imho the truth, which is almost negligibly conveyed anywhere in the funnel… (which perhaps why its a shit-funnel fwiw). i mean… i got this impression after just initial reading… and comparing to how i've seen. my understanding is data mining quite popular in bio-tech related fields because you cant ethically experiment easily on humans/even animals… | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and because you need to sift through a ton of data; ie machine-power needed and useful, certainly; now why call that though "machine learning" is a different thing. | [13:43] |
| shrysr: | a guy who with me was among the firsttt to join that DS-dream-job around March 2018 – was a PhD in neuro-science at Calgary uni. iirc post doc for many years too. I wanted to ask him wtf he needed dsdj for…and never got around to it. He recently joined some bank :) intend to get in touch atleast now for tips. | [13:54] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 'expert system' was enuff of a hype wave that reached sovok, i have a late-'80s ru text on subj. idea was that human expert manually programs a (what would in modern parlance be) 'chatbot' , which then diagnoses disease etc. afaik vanished w/out a trace, other than a small trickle of use in insurance industry today | [14:32] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: i believe it is becoming more than a trickle of use today in the insurance industry. its apparently 'cheaper' to get a chatbot to pop out your insurance docs and basic stuff (than run call center)… but ya lol google has some service wherein you build chatbots.. i tried a while ago and essentially exactly the same as you described, feed in Q&A. iirc adobe use alexa in boardroom meetings | [14:45] |
| shrysr: | "alexa, what are the quarterly profits" or something. | [14:45] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the orig item was moar of a 'enter symptoms, get 'which antibiotic' as output' than the current-day 'eliza' clones | [14:46] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: are you familiar with the 'eliza' story? imho it is instructive. | [14:48] |
| shrysr: | no? i was just typing what you meant by eliza actualy. | [14:48] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: see also | [14:50] |
| asciilifeform: | 1966 (!) . 'Secretaries and nontechnical administrative staff thought the machine was a "real" therapist, and spent hours revealing their personal problems to the program. When Weizenbaum informed his secretary that he, of course, had access to the logs of all the conversations, she reacted with outrage at this invasion of her privacy. Weizenbaum was shocked by this and similar incidents to find that such a simple program could so | [14:50] |
| asciilifeform: | easily deceive a naive user into revealing personal information.' | [14:50] |
| asciilifeform: | pretty curious how shrysr managed to learn to program but avoid finding out about 'eliza' — it was used as example in just about every book on the subj in '70s-'90s , i had one for 'commodore 64'x01 | [14:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: they recycled the name as usual; ie still "expert system" though not exactly as promised but "who is there to notice" | [15:35] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: i just.. kindda 'did stuff', and tried to learn backwards. idk if you'd call what i know programming. I did not 'do a book' w.r.t programming… at the most in snatches only. coding was more of a hobby and way to reduce manual work.. and have these 'automated systems' doing my work while i did … whatever else lol. fwiw untill some years ago – i discarded the 'historical' bits i.e took in | [15:52] |
| shrysr: | only upto a point i got an idea of 'then and why now'.. | [15:52] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: and the eliza story is actually quite instructive i think. | [16:00] |
| shrysr: | I guess i always knew i dont have a structured knowledge base w.r.t programming/comp sci. I think today …i am often infuriated that i dont have that, particularly when i started moving more into code and data-hag. The only step i took to rectify was starting the SICP course last year, which i abandoned after some lectures thinking I need to | [16:20] |
| shrysr: | learn mainstream shit first to get a job. if diana_coman reccs – i will re-pursue. | [16:20] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: some of the most effective folx i've worked with, did not have any traditional schooling; this aint fatal | [16:26] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003183 << did the 'cure' happen during your masters thesis or did you find out later, i.e did this shape your PhD, and what was that on ? | [17:49] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 13:39:21 diana_coman: it was a good cure indeed but a cure for my naivity regarding the domain, not of that much use to those affected by breast cancer, what can I say. | [17:49] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: iirc i read on one of your blog posts that you 'recently returned to programming..' …trying to find link >> was curious what were you doing before that? and what was it like after getting PhD, as in what did you wanna do? If I may also ask – what/where was that meaning you found? | [18:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:47:51 diana_coman: to summarise though: I kept moving (and mentally even more than the physical would directly tell); looking back, at some point I realised that I pretty much traced where the meaning *used to be* until I finally accepted that it's not anymore in any of those places. | [18:01] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003205 << i guess i am glad to know it isnt. ty. | [18:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 16:26:30 asciilifeform: shrysr: some of the most effective folx i've worked with, did not have any traditional schooling; this aint fatal | [18:02] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003206 – during the master's itself really; as a result, I tried the PhD in pretty much ~anything else (the Swiss episode was one attempt) and ended up with an even more obvious (in retrospect) scam: software engineering (that's what my PhD is in); that pretty much made me give up on the whole of it entirely | [18:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 17:49:57 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003183 << did the 'cure' happen during your masters thesis or did you find out later, i.e did this shape your PhD, and what was that on ? | [18:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 08:54:22 diana_coman: and now I remember how 25yo me shocked some Swiss interviewers: "why Switzerland? *shrug* For me the world has only 2 countries: Romania aka home and…the rest of the world" | [18:32] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003208 – it was possibly the intro to the Reference Code Shelf mentioning the return to programming; the reason was simply that I wanted Eulora to happen. | [18:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 18:01:16 shrysr: diana_coman: iirc i read on one of your blog posts that you 'recently returned to programming..' …trying to find link >> was curious what were you doing before that? and what was it like after getting PhD, as in what did you wanna do? If I may also ask – what/where was that meaning you found? | [18:38] |
| diana_coman: | after the PhD I stayed on for a year as post-doc and then stuffed them all and did whatever I wanted to try – just making sure I always found a way to get paid for it, too. | [18:42] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003204 – neah, I don't think it's worth it. | [18:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 16:20:21 shrysr: learn mainstream shit first to get a job. if diana_coman reccs – i will re-pursue. | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Sep-2019#1003203 – fwiw I went to Uni for 5 years (engineering degree) supposedly to get exactly a structured knowledge base wrt programming/comp sci and I still don't think I actually got that at all, mainly because they hadn't a clear idea as to wtf that was exactly; I made my own structuring later on (and also learnt much more later on); so no, I wouldn't worry at all about that. | [18:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-20 16:20:19 shrysr: I guess i always knew i dont have a structured knowledge base w.r.t programming/comp sci. I think today …i am often infuriated that i dont have that, particularly when i started moving more into code and data-hag. The only step i took to rectify was starting the SICP course last year, which i abandoned after some lectures thinking I need to | [18:47] |
| diana_coman: | re meaning found – note that when I accepted no meaning was anymore in any of those places, I hadn't as such found it otherwise; it was missing and therefore entirely up to me to make/find my own, that's all. | [18:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:47:51 diana_coman: to summarise though: I kept moving (and mentally even more than the physical would directly tell); looking back, at some point I realised that I pretty much traced where the meaning *used to be* until I finally accepted that it's not anymore in any of those places. | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | in fairness though, out of the "software engineering" thing, at least I got to see all sorts of interesting Italian stuff, Ferrari engineering included; and just to avoid misunderstandings – I don't actually regret any of it, at all. | [18:54] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ty. ha! Ferrari.. so cool. I | [19:09] |
| shrysr: | i would think if there was any meaning in the automotive world… it would be @ Ferrari :) .. or perhaps some kindda F1 team. | [19:11] |
| shrysr: | yes it was your reference code shelf, ty. this one i read recently. was thinking it is also mentioned on another post.. but never mind. | [19:21] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: laff if you like, but i always imagined 'ferrari' as a pen&paper shop | [20:51] |
| jfw: | I discovered I had some sleep and work review/planning debts to pay; nearing the end of that and will get back to log catchup shortly. | [21:12] |
#ossasepia Logs for 19 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1003056 – all right. | [03:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 19:26:25 shrysr: diana_coman: re:V – i'll do it. and no not 'train me for them'… its as you just said – useful for me and tmsr related. useful for me i.e that cover only major skill/proj exp deficits. to illustrate: work with 'large data' on remote sql server and applied text analysis to do XXX. Re: apps now, yes, already sent, and more down the line def. | [03:30] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:57] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 32m | [03:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what sort of pedal-powered net connection do you have there, lolz | [12:00] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1002848 << presume this still stands, i.e to be re-written? | [12:07] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 05:58:16 diana_coman: shrysr: and don't you even dare to change or "update" that post! Let it stand there and go and write another one and if it's still not good, you'll write another one and another one and I don't care if it gets to 1000 or 1mn until you finally do it right – the pile will stand there as a monument to your worship of stupidity, as taller as it gets. | [12:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes. | [12:09] |
| shrysr: | ok. | [12:19] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1003009 << I thought I should spell this out in more detail than my answers yesterday incl possible options. It would be shaped by the skill deficit list + feedback on apps and would eventually change ofc – but I thought itz still important to sketch out an overall plan now? | [12:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 17:47:41 diana_coman: shrysr: that sounds like "latest date – march"; and if it still doesn't happen by march? | [12:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: only if you need help with it really; this particular topic&interest is mainly yours so in this case I don't really need to see a plan from you, it's enough if you actually have one. | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: when you go through the logs again for the re-write, check please on both logs.ossasepia.com and logs.nosuchlabs.com and let me know if you see anything still missing/strange on either/both, ok? | [12:29] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: okay …. but lol is that a trick to make me read twice :P | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: lolz, not a trick, just a very efficient use of all resources available. | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | seriously, I'd just tell you "read it 10 times" if I was specifically after that :P | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: but yes, it *helps you too*; that's an important consideration when I choose and give tasks. | [12:33] |
| shrysr: | :D okay.. glad to be of serviz massa. fwiw i thought i saw something missing even on yest stuff…. i had nosuchlabs on bookmark and switched to ossasepia … but will re-check all and revert as directed. | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: nosuchlabs got updated only today so please look again, yes. | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | you can keep whichever one you want on bookmark otherwise; I suppose ossasepia might be handier because it lists #o as default chan (while nosuchlabs lists #trilema as default) | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | but other than that, there shouldn't be any difference | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: weren't you saying something about getting back on Wednesday aka yesterday? | [12:37] |
| shrysr: | btw: in terms of checking both – shdnt there be more efficient way? i dloaded the db snapshot initially thinking of finding some way to filter /regex … i havent dealt with a db 'dump' so went back to manual. I see it is a complete dump of all logs. | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you can use the raw knob | [12:38] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: didnt follow that? raw knob ? | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: eg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=999600&iend=999700 | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | vs http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=999600&iend=999700 | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | I guess you can just get them with a curl and compare with a diff | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter, make yourself a bash script so it does all (if there is some difference it will be in lines with id < 1000000) | [12:41] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: dun work w/ conventional line-based unix diff, as the timestamps (at least post-1000000, current era) are ~always different | [12:41] |
| diana_coman: | the raw mechanism above works for at most 500 lines at a time so you'll need to do it in batches | [12:41] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i use another tool 'meld', for these, character-based differ, but requires x11 ) | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: well, this is pre-era and copied so they should be the same though, no? | [12:42] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: these indeed oughta be 100\% same | [12:42] |
| asciilifeform: | was speaking of the general case | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | so shrysr see, it's up to you if you make out of this task a read-twice task or a learn-to-automate-with-bash-and-curl task | [12:42] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and imho we are gonna need some semi-automatic tool for this job ) | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | in either case…win-win, though. | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: we certainly need a semi-automatic tool for sync, more generally, absolutely. | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: where are you lost in there? | [12:44] |
| shrysr: | hmm …i was actually thinking when the review task was given – to use R to connect to the DB snapshot – get each line into a CSV file and figure out a way to grep through, and was thinking the same for the comparison in fact. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: massively bloated solution | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: db snapshots are the wrong place to do it, as they tend to be 1x/day , and the exact time will differ by what the various boxes think the time of day is | [12:45] |
| diana_coman: | is it driven by your lack of knowledge of bash/curl or what? | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the clocks aint synced and i dun think they ever will be | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | as for 'r', i dun even have it on any of my machines. | [12:47] |
| shrysr: | ah ok..yes, i'm not fluent in bash scripting per se, but i've always wanted to – so ok. wd like to go the bash/curl way. | [12:47] |
| diana_coman: | eh, he wants it for data-diddling; not even a bad tool at all *for that*; but this here is a bash+curl+diff job | [12:47] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: generally folx won't take up 'here let's use my oddball prog lang' w/out a ~very~ good reason | [12:47] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: rright but if he does it in cobol or whatever, he'll be the only 1 who can run.. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: man curl is your friend; but seriously, it's easier than you think so go for it; and *ask* if you get stuck, don't waste time. | [12:48] |
| shrysr: | yes, i und. its exactly as diana_coman said tbh. | [12:48] |
| shrysr: | i.e data-diddling. but i go for it.. and will revert. | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | cool. | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: how's it going? | [15:56] |
| shrysr: | working on it. This is fun. not stuck yet, but figuring out how to assign values to variables in bash and include in curl for start and end id's | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | heh, enjoy then. | [15:58] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: hmm – i tried the raw log for id > 1000000 – both visual and diff inspection seem to indicate they are still the same, i.e in reference to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Sep-2019#1003089 ? | [17:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-19 12:41:37 asciilifeform: diana_coman: dun work w/ conventional line-based unix diff, as the timestamps (at least post-1000000, current era) are ~always different | [17:31] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: it'll all be same up to the point where diana_coman plugged in ossabot | [19:03] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: elementarily, errything prior to that is either from diana_coman's era2 dump (so same in both) or from snsabot's db (again same in both, diana_coman imported) | [19:03] |
| asciilifeform: | in entries logged by snsabot and ossabot in realtime, the timestamps (which come from local machine, always, not fleanode) will differ. | [19:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ( the ordering of lines will also, at certain times, differ. ) | [19:04] |
| shrysr: | aye. I saw what you mean while playing … probably somewhere around 1000900+. | [22:46] |
#ossasepia Logs for 18 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: get your head out of your own arse already and look at yourself without pretense, for once, as that "analysis" is the weakest effort I've seen in ages; what half-baked effort you put in there is insulting to say the least and if you think – after all this time here – that I'm running here the sort of whishy-whashy that goes for "university" in the UK nowadays where you can pass "for the effort" while stoned and not giving a damn ab | [06:01] |
| diana_coman: | about it, you're as blind as a newborn kitten. | [06:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there's not just plain but exponential and accumulated stupidity in there that you haven't even faced or acknowledged, let alone curse in any earnest; and if that weakest of "barely mentioning it while running quickly to something else" passes for cursing in your books, gotta wonder what else you have no real idea about. | [06:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: here, take The Pageboy's Pledge – I don't care if you chant it, read it, eat it, print it and sleep with it, say it like a prayer every evening or whatever else you do with it but *start living* by it already or you'll never make it out of that hole you dug yourself into, you fool. | [06:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes, you are intelligent and smart enough to know what you should do even *before* I have no other choice than spell it out for you but you still cherish and worship your stupidity so much that you nevertheless won't do it, right? | [06:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and don't you even dare to change or "update" that post! Let it stand there and go and write another one and if it's still not good, you'll write another one and another one and I don't care if it gets to 1000 or 1mn until you finally do it right – the pile will stand there as a monument to your worship of stupidity, as taller as it gets. | [06:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Sep-2019#1002831 – quite obvious, yes. | [06:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-17 19:05:00 whaack_pura_vida: and seeing the results it's obvious that i'll have to find a place separate from pot smoking friends | [06:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Sep-2019#1002836 – you know, guilt-tripping is emotional blackmail; do you really imagine that your blackmailers are your friends? | [06:27] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-17 20:53:24 whaack_pura_vida: and yes most friends just offer me weed because it is habit/common courtesy, but this friend was giving a guilt trip over it most likely because of "don't make me lonely and have to get high by myself" thoughts | [06:27] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: would you mind giving a spin to the updated irssi2tmsr script and let me know if/how it works now on your irssi logs? the .vpatch is here: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/?b=irssi_format&e=#select | [09:38] |
| diana_coman: | it should be the "standard" irssi log format (including months given by names) so hopefully it won't require any further fiddling | [09:39] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: sure thing. I'll let you know results | [11:46] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1002843 << i dont think you are running anything whishy-whashy and fwiw I did give a damn back then too, stoned or not. I was no perfect student despite giving a damn obv. After my grad school exp – leeds was to me relatively heaven and I was fortunate to get even that whishy-whashy as you call it. | [11:46] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 05:45:51 diana_coman: shrysr: get your head out of your own arse already and look at yourself without pretense, for once, as that "analysis" is the weakest effort I've seen in ages; what half-baked effort you put in there is insulting to say the least and if you think – after all this time here – that I'm running here the sort of whishy-whashy that goes for "university" in the UK nowadays where you can pass "for the effort" while sto | [11:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: perfection doesn't enter into it at all; perfection is an ideal – use it as a target, not as an expectation; and yes, I don't expect nor request perfection, there was *nothing* about perfection above. | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: for the record, since that was heaven – is this here hell or what? | [12:02] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: note also that above you just deflected; you latched onto some bit that you could "contradict" and who cares whether the "contradiction" matters to the core of the issue or not. | [12:12] |
| shrysr: | Re: hell or not – its different. Doesnt seem right to fit into a definition of heaven or hell. In terms of a 'University', env ,library, profs, consistent rules etc etc…. leeds was heaven relative to what I had seen and suffered through. There was so much I *did not* do then. When i said *perfect* – I meant that if i did give a damn then the results shd have atleast reflected the extent of the damn i did | [12:14] |
| shrysr: | give…. but it did not properly reflect even the 'little damn' that I did give then. It was an oasis of squandered opportunity. I can blame heartbreak or the fact it was a monumental struggle to do even what I did manage to do… but I shd have done more. And no – i am still considering how to address the bits about pretense, or what you are viewing as pretense through the lense of what I've learned + | [12:14] |
| shrysr: | shared here .. however, i did not want to 'not communicate' in the process and so I typed that first. | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ok, but preface it then as such and note that "didn't give a damn" is based precisely on what you *did* (or in that case didn't do, as you say it right above), not on what you *felt* | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: how do you reason "it did not properly reflect even the little damn that I did give then" ? | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr! | [12:40] |
| shrysr: | well many reasons. I did not socialise except for less than one handful of ppl… I didnt talk to some profs I really liked… and focused only on one, my aerodynamics and CFD prof. I avoided my thesis guide but latched on to an asst. prof who was also guiding us (a bunch of us working on different aspects of the same 'topic/project'). because i was not the top of my class in terms of scores…and I was | [12:51] |
| shrysr: | determined to be before it all started. I fucked through the whole year and got a PhD offer in a subject that i loved but *still had failed*. I did not strategise to get the marks I wanted… i just studied the subjects. I was stoned even while going to the prof to understand why I had failed…. to realise that actually – i had scored fine… even the highest in some theory based questions, but having | [12:51] |
| shrysr: | been penalised for submitting my assignments late (again a relatively high score) – the weightage worked to a fail. I saw only the failure. The education was to make me a better person overall…. i came out barely not broken in sum. perhaps better in some respects. fwiw, i guess a lot of things did sink in and manifested later…being on time for meetings, caring about document quality… understanding | [12:51] |
| shrysr: | that it is important to ack what is *not known*etc. For quite a while even after leeds…. I thought I wasnt good enough and thats why the girl left me or I was where I was. Though My rational analysis showed me that this was far from true, and it was supported with success at mines – I labored many years under the thought that I was just not … good enough. If i was – I'd be …somewhere else. I'd be | [12:51] |
| shrysr: | happy. If i did give a damn… i wd have been able to forget the girl and focus on what mattered. | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hang on a minute, will you? | [12:52] |
| diana_coman: | the point re uni was precisely that they *were too complacent to force out the best in you*; and all you say quite supports this; sure, it doesn't mean that they didn't teach you *anything*. | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | it means rather that they failed to support your smarts and kill your stupid | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | in the process messing up any chance of a sane evaluation scale too | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | and it's this last bit that is the worse really. | [12:58] |
| shrysr: | brb 10m | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002864 – I don't think you quite understood this question. Another way to state it would be: how do you separate the "how much I care about it" from "this is what I did/didn't do" so that you can then claim that the action was somehow not an accurate reflection of how much you cared about it? | [13:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 12:29:02 diana_coman: shrysr: how do you reason "it did not properly reflect even the little damn that I did give then" ? | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | I should add I suppose that when I talk of UK "universities" I rely on a whole lot more than what you shared about your particular experience. | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | let's just say that I know how they work. | [13:25] |
| shrysr: | Re: UK uni's and your knowledge. yea – I know for me it was only relative heaven, and only based on a poor reference anyway. I was just there for a year and my mind was mostly in turbulence. Re : prev Q – I cared about scoring the highest – but failed and still fail to fully accept that scoring marks (or getting 'a' job) has little to do with knowing the subject even in Leeds or any damn education system. | [13:45] |
| shrysr: | I did not take the effort to go in depth into how I *could* score, and instead settled on an idealistic pursuit that I thought shd give me marks + actual development and did not take adequate care to balance it. I cared about connecting with some profs – but did not force myself to meet each one, because I gave in to the temptation of 'escaping with a hit'.. thinking -ok but I will meet em tom *for sure* | [13:45] |
| shrysr: | and tom never happened. I set goals.. in terms of studying, and asking questions – which I studiously postponed most of the time, or when successful went too deep into a concept and lost track of time thereby postponing again since it was always fucking incomplete. I resolved each day to stick to a schedule… and almost never did. On the days I did succeed – i ended going back to the black depression that | [13:45] |
| shrysr: | it wasnt enough, and not realising that all i had to do was stick to the schedule. I cared abt doing well and recognised I needed to talk to profs and people, but i did not. I did not reason enough with myself to convince myself that – I need to be able to leave the room or be able to talk to people without a hit. In essence, I was cognizant enough to identify something mattered and to think of steps | [13:46] |
| shrysr: | towards it – but failed in following through with action consistently. | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there's a bit of a mix there and a lot of confusion. | [13:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: tell me this: do you honestly consider you did your very best to do what I asked for with http://s.ragavan.co/2019/09/analysis-of-failures-to-meet-deadlines/ ? | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002885 – because you were going at it on *one leg only*; in short, you knew what you needed to do but you didn't care to do it and both those things matter, you can't just cut one out and pretend that the other takes over both functions. | [14:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 13:46:03 shrysr: towards it – but failed in following through with action consistently. | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | ftr, the fact that you didn't care about gaming their grading system is a very SANE thing to do, despite what they'll (obviously) claim. | [14:07] |
| diana_coman: | (not to mention that if you did, you'd be now in all likelihood slowly going nuts in some office) | [14:10] |
| diana_coman: | the only part that you got wrong re not gaming the grading system is understanding fully what it means; but that's quite a lot to ask from your self at that time. | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | their grading system evaluates compliance more than knowledge; as such, good for you that you didn't care about it, sure; onth a bit silly then of you to be surprised that you had a very hard time being further allowed into their system as it were. | [14:13] |
| shrysr: | Re analysis: I think it was… not complete. I think i covered all the instances of failing the deadline… and kindda stopped at that point. The assignment and analysis amounted to simple things….. i took my time to believe you could help me. I did not submit for a long time though there was evidence I could trust you. Its not that I discarded the evidence/advice since day 1, but I was hesitant to | [14:13] |
| shrysr: | believe that there is nothing hidden here. I did not… push myself to examine and reach the point of submission and instead waited for it sink in and speak to me… which seems to the way i do things fwiw. However – all that changed on week 8… in fact the changes were there in stages even earlier when i quit pot. I found that I believed you… and was willing to submit at that point. my analysis was | [14:13] |
| shrysr: | that – the problem *now* is simply that I need to include review + tasks Within the work… | [14:13] |
| diana_coman: | basically you pissed on them from high up (and you could do it precisely because yes, you are in fact very intelligent from what I see) but then you decided to try and …submit to them. | [14:14] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002894 – yes, exactly that. | [14:16] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 14:13:55 shrysr: Re analysis: I think it was… not complete. I think i covered all the instances of failing the deadline… and kindda stopped at that point. The assignment and analysis amounted to simple things….. i took my time to believe you could help me. I did not submit for a long time though there was evidence I could trust you. Its not that I discarded the evidence/advice since day 1, but I was hesitant to | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | you covered with the analysis the easy bits (all instances of failing the deadline) but you went only extremely superficially (if at all) with the analysis of yourself; and almost ignored entirely the part re cursing stupidity; did you take it for nonsense/"just a way of saying" or what? | [14:18] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1002854 << finished initial testing. See here teh results: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Zggw | [14:28] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 12:40:07 diana_coman: it should be the "standard" irssi log format (including months given by names) so hopefully it won't require any further fiddling | [14:28] |
| lobbes: | In other words, I suspect my "out-of-the-box" irssi format differs from yours :/ | [14:28] |
| lobbes: | Hence my question in #t, i.e. "conversion never ends", so maybe we just set the "standard input" and document it. Let the user of the irssi2tmsr fix their input themselves? idk | [14:28] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 21:36:00 lobbes: I guess what I'm asking is should we bother patching for all permutations of possible formats, or just stick with diana_coman's original and state what it expects. To my limited eye I'd say the latter is the saner approach | [14:28] |
| asciilifeform: | re subj — diana_coman as i understand asciilifeform's copy of db still contains barf in old #o l0gz ? do you have a dump you'd like to deed and have asciilifeform eat ? ( or is this in queue ) | [14:30] |
| lobbes: | the same thing is true with my znc2tmsr converter, fwiw. It depends on the log files in each dir being dated in a very specific manner. If that differs, then it'd "break" the converter. | [14:30] |
| lobbes: | still, it managed to eat a good 4 years worth of #e log archives. So some utility, just perhaps not worth driving ourselves insane trying pinpoint the *znc/irssi* standard, and instead just say "this is the input your logs must be in, deal with it" | [14:32] |
| lobbes: | *this is the format your input | [14:33] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: i admit i gun grasp the 'conversion never ends' comment. after all of the vintage material converted into canonical format, that's it | [14:35] |
| lobbes: | asciilifeform: well, for example, what about the phf era1 logs? | [14:35] |
| lobbes: | or perhaps someone else starts a castle but neglects to use stan logotron, then needs to convert | [14:36] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: these converted correctly into current format. problem is re the fundamental url scheme, which currently relies on continuous clock | [14:36] |
| asciilifeform: | which is why not imported'em yet | [14:36] |
| asciilifeform: | the /log/chan/year-mo-day#123456 scheme is untenable | [14:37] |
| lobbes: | agreed on that, for sure | [14:37] |
| asciilifeform: | nobody's suggested a practical replacement yet afaik, tho | [14:37] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | update on finding a citadel: i've been iterating through various web fronts (airbnb, longtermlettings.com, etc to try and message people to try to make a deal for a place off platform) I can't seem to find anything close to what i would get living with friend. There are nice places in the 200/mo range, which i am tempted to take, but those seem like the incorrect choice per http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-live-to-be-rich | [14:42] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | It looks like i'm going to fail to get a lease during this 1 week trip. The big mistake was that I did not do a thorough search before coming. I had some places lined up that fell through a week before getting here, and so I got left scrambling, thinking that I was safe because I had that good deal living below friend. | [14:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: Re :cursing stupidity – lol ok. i started with the full intention to properly curse my stupidity.. and quite wanted to in fact! but as i went through.. i could not decide if I was stupid to not trust you *immediately* and submit and be open. I thought – yes – I know that was stupidity now – but was it wrong to take time? fwiw, my first line was that i wanted to break into data-hag… albeit | [14:45] |
| shrysr: | with no proper explanation. And then i realised that – ofc time is effin important and it could have taken less time if i *had* communicated or actively *discussed* to convey + understand if I could trust you instead of… well partially engaging with some suspicion + internal rumination. The discussion could have been external… open. i thought that ultimately my stupidity – was abt poor communication | [14:45] |
| shrysr: | and not understanding that that reviews + tasks fall within the work + sustainable consistent progress. it was not even that I thought half a day late is ok (which I have not since some weeks) – the real issue was accounting time for review before deadline and not meddling with shit in the last minute. | [14:45] |
| asciilifeform: | oh hey shrysr , didja ever make any progress in re v.py ? | [14:49] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: iirc this was among the 1st homeworks diana_coman gave you | [14:49] |
| asciilifeform: | it's been, wat, 7 wks ?! | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: atm he has to dig himself out of a much deeper pit. | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: ugh, indeed it is; yours has < nick> while mine has simply nick: | [14:51] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: deeper pit << aite, i'ma not distract then. | [14:51] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: hey.. i'm sorry no. yes it was in fact the first… and its been more than 7w.. i apologise. | [14:51] |
| diana_coman: | so apparently irssi2tmsr is an ever shifting beast | [14:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i admit i read coupla kilometres of the shrysr log and still somewhat puzzled re what his pit is | [14:52] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: re db I'll deed the copy but…deedbot has been down | [14:52] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: ty | [14:53] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, it's still those damned lines before the logger ie the converted ones; it's enough to go delete where < 1000000 and then eat the file, that's how I corrected mine but ugh, sorry for all the versions. | [14:53] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: no worries; i'ma eat it asap after deeded. | [14:54] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: re format yes, that's what I did with latest vpatch: gave concrete example re "format" (it includes * ) and this will be eat | [14:54] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: are you running bvt's patched bot atm ? i'm planning to rotate it in friday night. | [14:55] |
| diana_coman: | btw asciilifeform I've signed all vpatches of logotron + added it | [14:55] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: darn, did I miss a vpatch? | [14:55] |
| diana_coman: | I have to do maintenance early morning here when it's quiet in the forums. | [14:55] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: loox like i have sigs from you for all the current patches ( and 1 moar which aint on my www yet, 'irssi_format.kv.vpatch' | [14:56] |
| asciilifeform: | ) | [14:56] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: yes, that's the fix re irssi format | [14:57] |
| asciilifeform: | a. | [14:57] |
| asciilifeform: | aa and loox like you signed 'raw_line_fix.kv.vpatch' and 'uptimefix_bye_cache.kv.vpatch' , i'ma add these to my mirror, ty | [14:57] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: by the sounds of it, rather confused as to what stupidity is; sigh. | [14:58] |
| diana_coman: | will bblx01 | [14:58] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack_pura_vida: I lived in a hostel nearly 7 months. What's the local equivalent of "MercadoLibre" or "Gallito" called there? | [15:01] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack_pura_vida: Look for places where the locals look for places. If you look where the gringos look you are going to see offerings priced for Gringos. Look where the locals look and you should see a wider range of options. | [15:03] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: added your sigs to logotron www. (all but the newest patch, which i have not had chance to try of yet) | [15:05] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack_pura_vida: https://inmuebles.mercadolibre.co.cr/apartamentos/ << Try looking here | [15:08] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | BingoBoingo: gracias | [15:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | You'll have to consult someone else on locations, but getting off the gringo sites seems to close the 250-1200 USD gap | [15:12] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002920 – unless you define your terms and stick to the definitions, you'll just go on various tangents forever and achieve nothing at all. | [15:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 14:45:27 shrysr: diana_coman: Re :cursing stupidity – lol ok. i started with the full intention to properly curse my stupidity.. and quite wanted to in fact! but as i went through.. i could not decide if I was stupid to not trust you *immediately* and submit and be open. I thought – yes – I know that was stupidity now – but was it wrong to take time? fwiw, my first line was that i wanted to break into data-hag… albeit | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and if you know now that it *was* stupid, then go for it, that's enough. All the "but…" is precisely your stupid protecting itself; so : stupid square, add it to the list and don't listen to further "but…" | [15:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and you know, "I was also apprehensive by then, that being honest/vocal about my self/plans or questions would end up with.." – this here is stupidity cubed already; | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | there are so many wrong things there that you'll have a lot of fun figuring them out. | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what's with the anger anyway (towards my probing, towards lobbes, basically towards anything and anyone that tried to help)? | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | that ^ is totally stupid | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002921 – eh, so here you even looked a bit deeper but…failed to write it?? and to add to the lulz, the conclusion was "poor communication" after which you promptly proceed to …poorly communicate it, lmao | [16:07] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 14:45:28 shrysr: with no proper explanation. And then i realised that – ofc time is effin important and it could have taken less time if i *had* communicated or actively *discussed* to convey + understand if I could trust you instead of… well partially engaging with some suspicion + internal rumination. The discussion could have been external… open. i thought that ultimately my stupidity – was abt poor communication | [16:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: did you do similar at all points in there? ie ended up somehow with "it's poor communication" and so overall that was ~all you were left with? | [16:18] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: hey i did write that…. that it was poor communication + time mgmt! ….well i felt it was incomplete – but I thought I had the basic answers, and i tried to tie em in to the stuff written…. kindda diluting it in the process as well with even more tangents. I thought that poor communication was the root cause feeding the other mistakes incl lack of trust… not resorting to a clear 'this be | [16:32] |
| shrysr: | shiny – and i wanna do' list. In parallel – the incl review+tasks in work bit. i was also left with shame and disgust for myself for not trusting you and in the process wasting time which i thought was unforgivable. In exploring those – i concluded that i was right to feel them – but the issues were corrected in the sense – i had submitted a few weeks ago. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the problem is not "did not trust on the spot" ie the fact; facts just are, they can't be stupid or intelligent or anything else; what *can* be stupid is what you do when faced with those facts. | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | I know you said "poor communication" but that is 1. a very generic and useless by itself term 2. ~all you said. | [16:36] |
| shrysr: | i see it is exponential stupidity. re: anger …well anger to the extent of outburst pretty much happened only that one time. Just a few other times after that I was annoyed when i was thinking defensively and not objectively to your probing. obv I had to accept there were straw men in the outburst as you pointed out, and fwiw accepted that immediately in my head atleast and the anger disappeared right | [16:39] |
| shrysr: | then. It was really confined to the initial few weeks on some occassions. hmm particularly w.r.t lobbes it was the first time he had spoken to me and i thought he didnt know me at all to say what he did. I guess I did not realise people do read the logs… I guess i thought he said it out of spite more than advice. I guess I was also primitive in the sense I did not want to talk/listen to anybody but | [16:39] |
| shrysr: | you..and i was even annoyed that i needed that because I was afraid you'd just tell me to fuck off or disappear at some point. even with asciilifeform – i suddenly had a surge of reverence towards him after actually reading some of his posts several weeks down after popping in here. | [16:39] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: it is ok to 'reverance' but at the risk of repeating the obvious, if you dun do the homeworks, you'll soon flunk, here, or in #a, or anywhere, just like at uni | [16:41] |
| asciilifeform: | imho diana_coman has patience of a saint, i dun think i could have absorbed, myself, the 100 kilometres of 'soon i will do it' | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | hello whaack_pura_vida how's house-hunting going? | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you need to look at things more objectively for sure, yes. | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so in all the above, you first knee-jerk-stupidly and then – if and only if – there's somebody to pin you down one way or another (here, me) for long enough so you calm down and actually start using your brain, you …start finally thinking and reading and all that stuff? | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: so far he seems to have been bent on adding to his workload, never actually getting rid of any of it, lol. | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002972 – ftr, I do NOT advise newcomers to believe this; there is also for instance the very short life of Bubico Garson (aka zmk) http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-07-29#1925422 | [16:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 16:42:03 asciilifeform: imho diana_coman has patience of a saint, i dun think i could have absorbed, myself, the 100 kilometres of 'soon i will do it' | [16:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-29 04:32:17 deedbot: diana_coman rated zmk -5 << Bubico Garson (eu l-am aruncat, manca-i-ai coada!). | [16:57] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: well in the case of anger, if no onez around to pin me at that moment – i think i pin myself down much later. | [16:59] |
| shrysr: | too much later to be of use perhaps. But i can say that has improved over the years. | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, do you plan to just… outlive it, or what? | [17:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: missing your opportunity because "knee-jerked" is still missing and no amount of beating yourself over it *afterwards* is going to reverse it or anything. | [17:03] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: i'm not here to abuse diana_coman's patience.. or anybodyz. perhaps you were born with superior everything or attained 'self-realisation' before balls dropped and i wd revere even more if so – as much as my reverence is meaningless – but the 100km was an attempt to communicate, and make sense of my problem and not to 'fuck around'. I harbor no illusion of not getting kicked out if i dun do | [17:13] |
| shrysr: | the homework. fwiw: there are others i shown reverence who dont have 10\% of patience here and who've sent inept 1 line replies to my hours+++ of composed emails or repeated Q's…just so you know: i have no doubt as of today that diana_coman has my full attention and efforts as well. | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: when is your projected/latest date for "new job"? | [17:26] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | diana_coman: house hunting was going poorly as of this morning, but now i have a lead on a place owned by a tica w/ an ocean view for 50/mo + utilities. | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: I hope you *are* still searching for other options too, just in case this one doesn't work out, yes? | [17:28] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | well after reading that message, yes. i'll admit that my rigor died as soon as this option that looks like a "done deal" appeared. | [17:30] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack_pura_vida: outta curiosity, what does 650 get you there ? (i.e. free-standing building ? flat?) | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: good for you on admitting it; and don't let rigor die unless you have already the keys of the place. | [17:31] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | asciilifeform: you can get your own building, it's likely going to have some western comfort missing: ac, hot water, etc. | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack_pura_vida: a window ac is a coupla hundy, 1time | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: from what I gathered the hot water in cr is ~shower mainly/only for "default options" | [17:33] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | asciilifeform: well i haven't done the math but i understand it also adds substantially to utility fee | [17:34] |
| diana_coman: | basically it's possibly ~same to pay tica to fan him with some palm-leaves. | [17:34] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack_pura_vida: you can calculate exact cost in advance, presumably the local util co will tell you what a kW/hr costs | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | getting some Spanish practice too, so clearly works out as better investment | [17:35] |
| shrysr: | logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1002845 << yes… re: outlive, no. i dont have a plan to eradicate it. | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | ha, what happened to bot? | [17:36] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: bot demands the htt… | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ah, right; drat. | [17:37] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | heh. well i've been advised that there are cute tica neighbors surrounding the place. anyways the spot i'm looking at already has ac installed | [17:37] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack_pura_vida: how long is the usual lease term in cr ? ( i.e. is this a difficult problem cuz you can't move for years even if find cheaper spot ? ) | [17:38] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | asciilifeform: around here everyone seems to want to do vacation rentals. so i could probably get a shorter lease if i wanted. that being said, this spot is a quality location for me so i feel comfortable making a year commitment at 50. i can try to make sure that i can sublet on the lease | [17:41] |
| asciilifeform: | it loox like great price, but admittedly from pov of asciilifeform , who lives where you can't even rent an open air parking spot for this sum; nfi re cr | [17:42] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re: projected date – hard to say. my thought is that it will either happ oct- early nov, and if not b/w jan-march. | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: thinking of getting a lease like that too and working from there? | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that sounds like "latest date – march"; and if it still doesn't happen by march? | [17:47] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002501 << I'm going to look for the next gig, preemptively. As per recent #t /lobbes blog logs I would like to get to the point where i can sell my gigs | [17:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 04:59:49 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002488 – what's the plan for after that then? | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: concrete plans beat likes any day. | [17:49] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | right. I can discuss the idea more concretely in my plans for republic work post. iirc there was a thread a while back about the utility of someone spending their time obtaining jobs and marketing them off in the forum. | [17:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: ok | [17:57] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1003009 << would be pretty great; but several practical obstacles in the way. not the least of which is that it'd astronomically raise the cost of obtaining gear for piz. | [17:59] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 17:30:51 diana_coman: asciilifeform: thinking of getting a lease like that too and working from there? | [17:59] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | btw, I still plan to have my post re past/future work for the republic by the end of this Sunday. but I feel that it may not be as thorough as desired. My time sinks are: finding a place, surfing, and salt mines work. What would help is a list of entry ways into the republic. I know of http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ but i'm not sure whether i'm supposed to use that or just read it a | [18:03] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | nd think of what-could-have-been | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: why? at most you have another trip to pick them up from someone in the US or what? at any rate, maybe worth actually looking at ways to remove those practical obstacles? | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: that is obsolete so not a lot of help in itself; nobody is going to make the list ready for you to pick and choose, wtf. | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: publish what you figure out by Sunday together with *how you went about* the figuring out | [18:05] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if ~100\% of the req'd components didn't live in usa warehouses, would be much simpler. as it is, would have to fight w/ ~2~ sets of customs rather than 1, make regular trips b/w 2 rather than 1 shitholes , somehow obtain the heavy equipment ( was looking into sheet metal fabrication recently for chassis ) , my current understanding is that in e.g. cr even basic necessities have to be flown in, at considerable cost | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | then iirc you still have http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002519 to decide on | [18:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:12:05 diana_coman: whaack, tanami – the above is valid for you too. | [18:06] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: the idea is that by then – i shd have some feedback as to Why not happening and can work on it… Alternative cd be to consider direct competition of current mine/ similar mine. Another alternative cd be education. Another cd be taking the risk of contract jobs related to ERP. the easiest and least preferred is similar mine shift…… another possible alternative is to switch gears by mid | [18:09] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: without this constraint, i'd go straight to BingoBoingostan, seems like the logical thing. | [18:09] |
| shrysr: | Oct -> plan out project in parallel now – one useful to tmsr under your guidance to be fin by dec/jan, and use that as part of portfolio for job apps in jan-march. The last deals with urgency of shift in a flaky manner. the base work of company + profile + contacts will be done though. | [18:09] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-18#1003024 << yes i'm meditating on it. | [18:10] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-18 17:51:12 diana_coman: then iirc you still have http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002519 to decide on | [18:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:12:05 diana_coman: whaack, tanami – the above is valid for you too. | [18:10] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | will bbl / tomorrow.x01 | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, atm you can at most do useful-to-you-and-tmsr-related (ie learning really, albeit yes, something concrete to do /show for it too, ofc); there's still some way to go before you can do something useful *to* tmsr as such. | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you mean above that by mid-October you are done with company+profile+contacts? | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I don't know but honestly, if it's really true that *all* that is keeping you now in the USA is not-to-increase-prices-for-pizarro, I dare say you should just ask in #t for help with finding a solution to this and therefore actually moving. | [18:20] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: it aint all , sadly ( there remains the fact that if the folx i slave for were to close up, which is likely to happen at some pt, chances are that would have to return to shithole ) but is the most immediate practical headache. some folx can meet their commitments using tooling that fits in a suitcase; asciilifeform sadly is not 1 of'em. not even speaking of piz, even the gear used to prototype FG , would take up a sma | [18:22] |
| asciilifeform: | ll railcar. | [18:22] |
| shrysr: | well – as such it is a continuous process sure, but once the baseline profile + company + contact list is established – then its not gonna be terribly time consuming per se is my thought… The point was more that – i push to establish above base – and use the lul period of pre-christmas to work on projects instead, …continue shooting out apps, but only spend extra time on interesting | [18:22] |
| shrysr: | applications/companies. | [18:22] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ^ re: mid Oct | [18:23] |
| BingoBoingo: | suspects anywhere asciilifeform moves is going to recieve alf's lab intermodal container shortly after alfx01 | [18:23] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: even before then the skill deficit list will def become clear, and the project can be planned around that was my thought. | [18:24] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: as it is , i barely have the budget to run it ~here~ , much less to move it. | [18:24] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: ' asciilifeform's lab container ' is made largely of surplus gear, collected over many yrs of bargain-hunting in usa ; it aint an item that can be re-created from off-the-shelf catalogues in 'third world' in anything like reasonable time and cost below six-figure | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, for starters, ~everything in tmsr requires… use of V | [18:29] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ | [18:29] |
| diana_coman: | so dunno how you're thinking there, really. | [18:29] |
| diana_coman: | and for that matter, are you actually saying that you'll get the requirements of x companies and then I'm supposed to …train you for *them*? | [18:30] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: not to add headache, but while we're on subj of lab containers : do you remember that mp offered to buy you an entire fucking building ? in BingoBoingostan ! what happened to this? i recall you went to research, did this return null ? | [18:33] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: or do you ~like~ living in a coffin hotel ?? i dun get it | [18:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: are you sending any applications now/before mid-Oct? | [18:35] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: in your place, i'd do whatever takes to make errything else in my calendar go the fuck away (what's in yours, exactly?) for as long as it takes to dig up the necessary data | [18:36] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrow.x01 | [18:37] |
| asciilifeform: | goodnight diana_coman | [18:37] |
| asciilifeform: | bbl:meatx01 | [18:40] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: I spent last week testing transit times to evaluate which directions result in pessimum transit. The write up is underway. | [19:18] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re:V – i'll do it. and no not 'train me for them'… its as you just said – useful for me and tmsr related. useful for me i.e that cover only major skill/proj exp deficits. to illustrate: work with 'large data' on remote sql server and applied text analysis to do XXX. Re: apps now, yes, already sent, and more down the line def. | [19:26] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: *to reach interview*, init filter is likely gonna go for eg 'do you know SQL? Yes. > Ok, how/when used? '????'. 'oh, what size of data??', 'so result/impact?'. | [19:31] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: ok, looking forward to reading | [19:51] |
| BingoBoingo: | http://bingology.net/2019/09/18/expoprado-at-rural-de-prado-an-exhibition-of-uruguays-agricultural-supremacy/ was not strictly to see the critters | [21:22] |
#ossasepia Logs for 17 Sep 2019
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002751 << /me on it massa :( | [11:05] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:10:04 diana_coman: shrysr: given the very trouble here, I won't set any deadline for this; but unless and until you write up the post as above, I won't read anything from you other than your next lines right now in which you can ask any questions you have re the above and otherwise end with "I will do it, thank you." | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: good for you. | [11:10] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: there are a bunch of (appear random) my messages from july (and perhaps more) which are missing. your responses to them are there and I even rem asking them. Believe i have noticed this before too – shdda mentioned i guess. afaik these are all in the period from before the logger (as it is now) was setup. | [12:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: link? | [12:41] |
| shrysr: | one here http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-01#999913 … | [12:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-01 12:43:00 diana_coman: shrysr good then. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, you should have mentioned it when you noticed it, directly with link too. | [12:44] |
| shrysr: | there r few others, in july. i will try gather. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | hm there does seem to be a line missing though no idea why; I'll look at it. | [12:46] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-07-17#999085 believe another line here iirc. i was trying to cross reference with my log, but mine appear to start from 19th july. | [12:55] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-07-17 15:09:00 diana_coman: hey, glad to hear that shrysr ! | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: use logs.ossasepia.com (eg fixt http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Aug-2019#999885) ; let me know if you see *anything else* missing. | [13:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-01 12:37:00 diana_coman: shrysr: if you are under some impression that you are doing me some great favours, better spill it out right now and be done with it, so we don't waste time. | [13:44] |
| shrysr: | ah. ok. I was just gonna point out another one but i see that is not missing on logs.ossasepia.com | [13:55] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Sep-2019#1002796 << derealisation sure, but first statement abt most drugs not 'bad' on their own? I dun think thats true. are essentially gateways into a cycle. you get high on whateva and then you go low – and need it again to not be low. Each drug *has* a physical + mental side effect that doesnt wear off instantly, thereby affecting the quality of | [18:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 14:54:49 lobbes: yea, (most) substances aren't necessarily "bad" on their own, just like watching tv isn't necessarily "bad" on its own. The problem, imo, is when you start to use them as 'derealisation tools' that ends up distracting you from other things you ought to be doing. | [18:14] |
| shrysr: | subsequent 'non-stoned' activities as well, unless you have a super-disciplined-customised method of 'recovery' that actually works and is used each and every time, or perhaps have balls of steel and care enough to reach same performance levels which is still taxing and worth it because the reward is….. getting high lol. imho the cure lies in the general direction of knowing why you wanna be high in the | [18:14] |
| shrysr: | first place, presuming you wanna quit at all. | [18:14] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | it would be a sin to omit the next part of my day yesterday: so i went to surf for the evening and on the car ride home friend (dif from the one i'd be living with) offers and i decline (an action out of the ordinary for our relationship) and he is insistent on me partaking. he keeps offering throughout the night and eventually i take a tiny hit. it felt pathetic doing that, the silver lining is that by test running the 'no ty' | [19:04] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | and seeing the results it's obvious that i'll have to find a place separate from pot smoking friends | [19:05] |
| shrysr: | whaack_pura_vida: fwiw – i've found explaining 'why' behind 'no ty' works better than just 'no ty' in those situations in a general sense. but even so depends on the maturity level of the friend to understand. however, afaik from 13 years in the culture is that offering you a hit is almost just basic courtesy and quite natural that it pops out like exhaling air. It can take several sessions for it to | [20:43] |
| shrysr: | register that you've 'quit', and I shd stop offering it to you. Also fwiw I've personally known a lotta ppl who used to hang around pothead friends like me and *never* take a hit. I'm just saying that I think it is possible… but it totally depends on how steadfast/fundamentally clear you are coz it *is tough* to say no when its allll around you, esp if you've already been into it. Kindda easier if you | [20:43] |
| shrysr: | never into it. | [20:43] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | shrysr: that is a good point – having a 'why' to give to back the 'no' | [20:50] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | and yes most friends just offer me weed because it is habit/common courtesy, but this friend was giving a guilt trip over it most likely because of "don't make me lonely and have to get high by myself" thoughts | [20:53] |
| BingoBoingo: | "It doesn't agree with me like it used to" | [21:09] |
| shrysr: | yea well that happens too. it cd even be some fear+resentment as in – 'you quit n explained why and now ur gonna be good, and I'm still the stoner a.k.a implied loser/asshole etc' …. am sure you know its not always the happy puff-puff-pass and bob marley crap. I'l admit I've felt (and have exp from others) such resentment, mostly at the initial stages i guess, after which i cdnt care less if somebody | [21:09] |
| shrysr: | said 'no ty' as long as I had mine lol. it can induce weird paranoia as well. fwiw: i think the ones who can be stoned and *not* induce you constantly to join, esp after your 'why' + 'no ty' are probably the only ones worth worrying abt in terms of 'relationship' / friendship. One advantage you have is that you kno how 'stoners' think and so are also well suited to fight it and win… or know you cannot | [21:09] |
| shrysr: | and retreeeaatttt. hehe…. i better stop ranting before diana kicks me out. | [21:09] |
| BingoBoingo: | whaack: Anyways, while it is still a countable number keep tracking the number of conversations you have in the local language, and try to note what operations you struggle with. | [22:22] |
#ossasepia Logs for 16 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002689 – I think they should be on your personal blog really; why not have them there to re-read in some years time, anyway? | [03:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 19:35:46 lobbes: diana_coman: I had a thought: should my eventual 'penance' posts be on younghands.club do you think? Or should they be from my personal blog still? | [03:10] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002690 – no, I meant it exactly as stated: endearing (~= adorable); the "most other" is such an undefined thing that you can't use it for much; and when you mix that with yet another poorly understood term (happiness), what you get is whatever you want it to be, more of a phantasy than anything else. | [03:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 20:16:07 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002064 << did you mean that as in 'sweet youth n innocence' = impossible? I believe what i've written.. but idk – it seems most others find such happiness through other means like marriage/kids? I've wonderd if it basically means that as a human, you are wired to find wholesome happiness caring for/ being with a companion… and that my view of wholesome | [03:14] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:46:12 diana_coman: 6.1 is endearing | [03:14] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002692 – indulging is not that wholesome, whether it's yourself or someone else you are indulging really, yes; nothing to do with the rest though; what humans are actually wired for as in they *need it* is relationships really but this is more general than "wife+kids"; we can revisit this at a later time if you need to. | [03:17] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 20:16:09 shrysr: happiness is incomplete. For eg w.r.t spending money – i've felt more happiness/pleasure getting stuff for others, and a happiness of …relatively ephemeral and superficial nature while indulging in maself. However, i've also thought relationships/starting family fundamentally a time sink, potentially quick-sand.. done out of a fear of being lonely more than anything else. | [03:17] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002693 – have a look at some actual warrants in practice eg from S.MG's statements such as http://trilema.com/2019/minigame-smg-statement-on-q2-2019/ (follow the links to the deeds in the SSW table on # column); the IPO contract of SMG may be something you want to read too anyway http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.MG | [03:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 21:14:46 shrysr: http://trilema.com/2013/the-stock-warrant-instrument-explained/#selection-73.231-73.271 << ima been re-reading several times – but still having trouble defining what a warrant is. Per selection – i understand that the warrants enable the fisherman to put money on table w/o being investor – but I'm thinking – by bringing money to the table – the fisherman *is* an investor even if you wanna call it warrant? | [03:21] |
| diana_coman: | if after that it's still not clear, ask again | [03:21] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:22] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 8d 8h 41m | [03:22] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001248 + http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002462 ; your deadline has passed, I don't see it anywhere and you haven't said anything either; where is it (and it'd better be that it was indeed published by the deadline)? | [03:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:15:31 diana_coman: eh, listen here, this sort of not-decided but doing that and none of the rest but-still-dont-wanna is not going to get anywhere; you have until the 15th of September to answer http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 | [03:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 15:06:41 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [03:30] |
| bvt: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-15#1002612 – this is a correct summary; and yes, it's 'stable' only in greenhouse conditions | [03:52] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:16:12 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002592 – if I understand correctly what you're saying there, you are looking for an inner change *first and foremost*; which is correct and sensible but requires specific targetting to, just like any other work really | [03:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 19:28:51 bvt: i can not currently express it in the words, but to at least try: due to the immutable past that i had i overtrained in one areas and skipped others; and as i see it, this would push me to a ~similar way of living everywhere – yes, food/money/people around may be different, but if life for me = X, succeeding at building X at the new place may be ~as bad as failing at life there at all. i.e. – i could move | [03:52] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: so what do you need to grow first so that you can thrive also out of the greenhouse? | [04:11] |
| auctionbot: | B#1059 O=121mn LB=None E=2019-09-16 18:40:30.513019 (18h40) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred | [08:48] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 0 total bids — | [08:48] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002718 << no it was not published. i apologise for not informing you last night. However, i was working on it right till i dropped off honestly.. I was reasonably on track in terms of work – but its taking me much longer than estimated to tie up a review. I am also taking steps that it does not happen next time. Review + tasks will be published next few | [11:20] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 03:14:32 diana_coman: shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001248 + http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002462 ; your deadline has passed, I don't see it anywhere and you haven't said anything either; where is it (and it'd better be that it was indeed published by the deadline)? | [11:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:15:31 diana_coman: eh, listen here, this sort of not-decided but doing that and none of the rest but-still-dont-wanna is not going to get anywhere; you have until the 15th of September to answer http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 | [11:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 15:06:41 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [11:20] |
| shrysr: | hours max. | [11:20] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002706 << seem reasonable, roger that | [11:37] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 06:10:52 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002689 – I think they should be on your personal blog really; why not have them there to re-read in some years time, anyway? | [11:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 19:35:46 lobbes: diana_coman: I had a thought: should my eventual 'penance' posts be on younghands.club do you think? Or should they be from my personal blog still? | [11:37] |
| diana_coman: | test: 1:2 : 3 | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Sep-2019#1002726 – listen here, this might have passed the *first* time but it's not going to pass this time; in order: | [13:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 11:20:12 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002718 << no it was not published. i apologise for not informing you last night. However, i was working on it right till i dropped off honestly.. I was reasonably on track in terms of work – but its taking me much longer than estimated to tie up a review. I am also taking steps that it does not happen next time. Review + tasks will be published next few | [13:12] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 03:14:32 diana_coman: shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001248 + http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002462 ; your deadline has passed, I don't see it anywhere and you haven't said anything either; where is it (and it'd better be that it was indeed published by the deadline)? | [13:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:15:31 diana_coman: eh, listen here, this sort of not-decided but doing that and none of the rest but-still-dont-wanna is not going to get anywhere; you have until the 15th of September to answer http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 | [13:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 15:06:41 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | 1. the moment to open your mouth re deadlines is *as soon as you are not 100\% sure you'll be on time*; and the VERY LATEST, 1 day before the deadline | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | 2. there is no "however" to be added by you when you screw something up; you *may* state the fact but you do NOT "however" it in. | [13:14] |
| diana_coman: | as in : "I was working on it right till I dropped off" is acceptable as an offered statement of fact; but it's up to the one for whom you screw up to decide on the value of that, not up to you to push it as anything | [13:15] |
| diana_coman: | and ftr , this sort of "however" is *precisely* how you screw *yourself* up. | [13:15] |
| diana_coman: | because it is avoidance, right there. | [13:16] |
| diana_coman: | 3. the *point* is *sustainable* growth – as even stated in plain-text on younghands.club; that means also sustainable pace of work; that means that if you are not done with it all at least 1 day before the deadline, then you ALREADY say it. | [13:17] |
| diana_coman: | 4. the review and the write-up are PART OF THE WORK! a significant part, even. So no, you cannot be "reasonably on track in terms of work " when you don't even include there the write-up, wtf. | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so now, you'll read back through all the #o log and you'll collect *all* the instances where you failed a deadline since I already let pass way too many of those from you; | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | you'll look at each and write-up in a post the full list with links and for each of those instances you get to write down plainly: why exactly you ended up failing to deliver; all the excuses you found for yourself ("howevers" and "but it's just a bit after" etc) | [13:23] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and *this time* you'll curse there not your poor intelligence that is actually saving you each and every time but precisely the stupidity that you choose to still keep feeding too | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: given the very trouble here, I won't set any deadline for this; but unless and until you write up the post as above, I won't read anything from you other than your next lines right now in which you can ask any questions you have re the above and otherwise end with "I will do it, thank you." | [13:25] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | greetings from CR. I've come to ask for some advice regarding getting a lease. I have an opportunity for a cheap studio which is the first floor of a 2 story where friends are staying above me. It's ~50/mo, and i'll have friends *very* nearby. I want to take it but I thought I should ask here first to make sure it is not an obviously bad idea from a third party perspective | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | and let it also be said for the benefit of shrysr and all that shrysr in this is still getting off light (the first 2 sentences in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Sep-2019#1002726 contribute to getting off lightly, for sure). | [13:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 11:20:12 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002718 << no it was not published. i apologise for not informing you last night. However, i was working on it right till i dropped off honestly.. I was reasonably on track in terms of work – but its taking me much longer than estimated to tie up a review. I am also taking steps that it does not happen next time. Review + tasks will be published next few | [13:29] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 03:14:32 diana_coman: shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001248 + http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002462 ; your deadline has passed, I don't see it anywhere and you haven't said anything either; where is it (and it'd better be that it was indeed published by the deadline)? | [13:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:15:31 diana_coman: eh, listen here, this sort of not-decided but doing that and none of the rest but-still-dont-wanna is not going to get anywhere; you have until the 15th of September to answer http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 | [13:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 15:06:41 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [13:29] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | my biggest concern is that should I to submit to training per http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002520 I would be less focused living in the apartment below my friends than if i paid a bit more for my own place | [13:31] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 08:56:25 diana_coman: whaack, tanami – the above is valid for you too. | [13:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: that sort of thing is something you know really, not in little part because you know your friends – what are they up to /for in CR anyway? | [13:31] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: I also have no idea re prices in CR – did you even look around at all? | [13:34] |
| diana_coman: | what IS generally a bad idea is to just go with the first thing on the flimsy basis that it's easy/comfortable | [13:34] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | yes but not as systematically as i should be doing | [13:34] |
| diana_coman: | heh, so listen to yourself and do it systematically then; not like that studio is the only one in CR or that you can't live if not under your friends. | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | tbh to me it *does* sound as more trouble than it is worth because those friends…. uhm, why aren't they here if they are so great? | [13:36] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | they are surfers there to build out a life outside of the US. the plus side is the person i'd be living with renounced his US citizenship and owns bitcoins, the down side is he is a the stoner/surfer type which i feel i could get sucked into easily if i'm not careful (it happened last time i came to cr) | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: so then certainly a bad idea; but to have a simple rule: unless they register their key, come in here and actually get to work, it means that they are pulling in quite the opposite direction than you so probably you don't want to have much to do with them, no. | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter, ticos are so friendly that it's impossible to *not* make local friends, not to mention that it'll help you much more | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | where in CR are you planning to stay anyway? | [13:40] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | perhaps it's on me for not introducing him to the logs. but i have a feeling that anyone interested in tsmr is going to naturally find #t on their own | [13:40] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | Guanacaste | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: well, you can always give them the link anyway, not like it hurts anything now, does it? but note that they have no business whatsoever with #trilema, at most with reading trilema.com if you want to give them that particular hook | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: is this guanacaste /the area mainly tourist/expats living there ? | [13:43] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | It's a tico neighboorhood but the immediate neighbors of this place are yes, expats | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | I'd steer away from expats and generally from expats-heavy areas really; if you go to a different country then you want to go where the locals (ideally the more discerning among them) are | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | whaack_pura_vida: did you ask MP for any advice re area? | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | I only visited CR once and for that matter I happily explored a lot more of the waters than of expats areas but he knows the whole country inside-out. | [13:47] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | not directly, i just posted for general advice in # | [13:48] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | #t | [13:48] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002752 << this is impressive to asciilifeform ( in usa, you won't rent even a wheelbarrow for 250/mo) but as diana_coman already noted, you gotta talk to mp, he is actual expert re CR | [13:57] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:13:19 whaack_pura_vida: greetings from CR. I've come to ask for some advice regarding getting a lease. I have an opportunity for a cheap studio which is the first floor of a 2 story where friends are staying above me. It's ~50/mo, and i'll have friends *very* nearby. I want to take it but I thought I should ask here first to make sure it is not an obviously bad idea from a third party perspective | [13:57] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002772 << it's understood noobs should not post in chan, but should they not even be concerned with reading #t ? | [13:58] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:26:08 diana_coman: whaack_pura_vida: well, you can always give them the link anyway, not like it hurts anything now, does it? but note that they have no business whatsoever with #trilema, at most with reading trilema.com if you want to give them that particular hook | [13:58] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002766 << if you already know that you're the sort of fella who 'ought not take substances', dun live with people who do! it is elementarily bad idea. | [13:59] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:21:28 whaack_pura_vida: they are surfers there to build out a life outside of the US. the plus side is the person i'd be living with renounced his US citizenship and owns bitcoins, the down side is he is a the stoner/surfer type which i feel i could get sucked into easily if i'm not careful (it happened last time i came to cr) | [13:59] |
| lobbes: | ^ I second this advice | [14:07] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | roger that. i have justifications for why it's okay "eh i just smoke a little bit" "i've turned down weed a lot recently" but it is probably just my mind playing tricks on me | [14:13] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | remembers the #g_l actually-meth-is-good-for-you threadsx01 | [14:13] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | but all this is hard advice to take, living with someone whose company i enjoy and i trust for 50/mo is real hard to turn down when it is convenient and i am pressed for time | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Sep-2019#1002786 – it is (playing tricks on you). | [14:16] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 14:13:18 whaack_pura_vida: roger that. i have justifications for why it's okay "eh i just smoke a little bit" "i've turned down weed a lot recently" but it is probably just my mind playing tricks on me | [14:16] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: learn to enjoy your own company a lot more, too, it's good for you. | [14:17] |
| lobbes: | whaack_pura_vida: I was a heavy pothead for about a decade. I still will probably smoke it again ~someday~ (I still have some in my apartment, in fact), but I live alone these days and have not even had the desire to touch it for last coupla months | [14:21] |
| lobbes: | But, at least in my experience, it was very hard to turn it down once it was a social habit in whatever household I was in. Not like a 'peer pressure' bs, but more just… well a bad habit | [14:21] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | lobbes: similar story for me. i have given up smoking by myself a while ago, but i am still in the stage where a lot of my social situations involve smoking, and i only turn it down about half the time. | [14:29] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack_pura_vida: imho if the q 'should i give up ?' is regular visitor in your head, the answ is 'yes' | [14:45] |
| lobbes: | yea, (most) substances aren't necessarily "bad" on their own, just like watching tv isn't necessarily "bad" on its own. The problem, imo, is when you start to use them as 'derealisation tools' that ends up distracting you from other things you ought to be doing. | [14:54] |
| lobbes: | "but then I got high" (TM)(R) | [14:56] |
| BingoBoingo: | One thing to look for is where the folks from other parts of LATAM congregate. Anyways, you can always try introducing the friend to TMSR materials and politely tell him you are looking to live somewhere more central this time around. | [15:06] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | asciilifeform: well i know i should give up pot for the reasons addressed by lobbes. the q for me is should i give up this seemingly good housing option because it will make giving up pot more difficult. which the answer seems to be yes | [15:28] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | BingoBoingo: Noted. I am drawn to the general area I'm in because it is a short distance away from many great surf locations. | [15:32] |
| BingoBoingo: | Location's a balancing act and I'm not too familiar with Costa Rica's layout beyond the various blog posts. To the extent learning Spanish is a priority I suggest putting yourself as close to the Latina crowds as possible. Don't rule out structured lessons, but skip the schools and audition latina English teachers comfortable with working in the other direction. | [15:39] |
| BingoBoingo: | Hay que ponserse delante de las chicas! | [15:44] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | claro, pero no las chicas de alemania :) | [15:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | lol | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Sep-2019#1002781 – it's not that they shouldn't be concerned with it, it's more that they are not going to be able to follow it. | [15:53] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:58:01 whaack_pura_vida: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-16#1002772 << it's understood noobs should not post in chan, but should they not even be concerned with reading #t ? | [15:53] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-16 13:26:08 diana_coman: whaack_pura_vida: well, you can always give them the link anyway, not like it hurts anything now, does it? but note that they have no business whatsoever with #trilema, at most with reading trilema.com if you want to give them that particular hook | [15:53] |
| whaack_pura_vida: | makes sense. bbl, ty for advice | [16:05] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [17:47] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 8d 23h 7m | [17:47] |
#ossasepia Logs for 15 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002592 – if I understand correctly what you're saying there, you are looking for an inner change *first and foremost*; which is correct and sensible but requires specific targetting to, just like any other work really | [05:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 19:28:51 bvt: i can not currently express it in the words, but to at least try: due to the immutable past that i had i overtrained in one areas and skipped others; and as i see it, this would push me to a ~similar way of living everywhere – yes, food/money/people around may be different, but if life for me = X, succeeding at building X at the new place may be ~as bad as failing at life there at all. i.e. – i could move | [05:31] |
| diana_coman: | ie if you say you aren't moving because it's not the outside but the inside that needs work, that's fine; but then start opening up and working on all of you, not just some areas | [05:32] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw the overspecialisation (that's what your "overtrained in one area and skipped others" is) is not a healthy way to live just like a table with only 2 legs is not a very good table. | [05:34] |
| diana_coman: | or not a very stable one in general, lolz | [05:35] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002594 – uk is just the latest stop really | [05:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 19:35:47 shrysr: diana_coman: may I ask why UK, and howddya choose Reading? | [05:39] |
| diana_coman: | ahaha shrysr look what I found for you (while searching for a different post actually) – it'll probably resonate with your polite canadians and all that: http://ossasepia.com/2013/06/16/intellectually-fit-as-socially-misfit/ | [05:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: found it, the post re moving countries and places: http://ossasepia.com/2011/03/25/plecarile-mele/ (it links to the one musing on the reasons for it too) but yes, they are both from a time I still wrote in Romanian mostly | [05:45] |
| diana_coman: | to summarise though: I kept moving (and mentally even more than the physical would directly tell); looking back, at some point I realised that I pretty much traced where the meaning *used to be* until I finally accepted that it's not anymore in any of those places. | [05:47] |
| diana_coman: | I stopped at the UK mainly because of a combination of the above + the child's need for stability until he is a bit older (he's almost 7). | [05:49] |
| diana_coman: | and as TMSR is not bound to a physical place anyway, being here is fine for now. | [05:50] |
| diana_coman: | as to Reading: it's small enough and close enough to the countryside (even "posh countryside" as I found only after some time here) to be pleasant while at the same time big/industrial enough to be very well connected (both rail and airways) | [05:52] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002595 – well, practice makes perfect, sure; but what you *are* is one thing; what you *do* is another. | [05:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 19:54:36 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002338 << does a master need to have, well, slaves or knights or etc to be master, or grow as a master? It does not appear mandatory as a qualification, when it is linked to being free, but what abt growth as a master? Being free/master != being perfect innit ? | [05:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 16:48:00 diana_coman: re being a master though, I'd say it's one of those things – when/if you are one, you'll know; before that you can of course bang your head on "I want to be one" and shout loudly as to why it doesn't work, plenty do precisely that. | [05:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 17:06:09 diana_coman: shrysr: perhaps it's clearer put whether you can stand to be fully free or not; links back to the causes and purposes, remember? | [05:54] |
| diana_coman: | a master without slaves is still a master – just one who focuses on other things than growing others; a slave without a master is still a slave – just one nobody can be bothered with but no freer for that | [05:57] |
| diana_coman: | perfection doesn't enter into it; no living person is perfect, by definition | [05:58] |
| diana_coman: | the slave/master is not a quantitative difference (ie it's not that the slave has x something while the master has 10x the same thing) | [05:58] |
| diana_coman: | it's a qualitative difference, there is a gap; and for similar reasons it's not really slave/knight as they are not the same sort either if you talk of their natures | [06:00] |
| diana_coman: | at any rate, the distinction is pretty much made by the person's *own* needs, not external through some labels or roles or whatever else | [06:01] |
| diana_coman: | and acknowledging it is simply the most basic acts of looking in the mirror without pretense, nothing more (and as such a very useful thing to practice, hence the requirement to "say it") | [06:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 – this here "say so" is not because I can't see it otherwise but because admitting to what one needs is a basic requirement to improvement. | [06:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:08:16 diana_coman: have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [06:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002605 – precisely this, quite well said actually. | [06:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 20:48:31 shrysr: thought – if found+fired – then so be it. if allowed – i might even venture to say – there is no point being here…and not .. well being honest / vulnerable – in order to become stronger, as I think you advised before. | [06:11] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002610 – hey, he's been even *practicing* for it (http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002089) and still no dice!! | [06:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 20:52:59 asciilifeform: lobbes: since day1 ('07) in fact | [06:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:24:17 asciilifeform: it dun bother me so much, i think of it as practice run for when in gestapo chair. | [06:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002624 – at which point I realise that this is possibly dangerous for young minds so let's restate: your nature is what it is, no matter what you decide to do (including negating it, as it's quite often the case); however, in practical terms, you are defined by your actions, yes. | [06:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:54:25 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002595 – well, practice makes perfect, sure; but what you *are* is one thing; what you *do* is another. | [06:31] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001733 << forgot to mention i checked this out few days ago – will need visa as it is based on nationality and not PR. believe added complication is that the visa involves a biometric process, and so will have to show up to consulate to get done. I think it wd be sensible to plan for this in the first half of 2020, and think it is important to do. | [10:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 13:43:29 diana_coman: shrysr: so come and visit Reading, have a talk face to face at least, then. | [10:13] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-15#1002619 << well fwiw i think the article describes something that is quite the norm in india, i.e the 'politically correct' expression, esp in business. i think canadians are polite in the sense – wd apologise profusely but still bother significantly less abt saying something inapppropriate. I wdnt say i've gotta great feel for them being mostly glued to | [10:50] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:24:53 diana_coman: ahaha shrysr look what I found for you (while searching for a different post actually) – it'll probably resonate with your polite canadians and all that: http://ossasepia.com/2013/06/16/intellectually-fit-as-socially-misfit/ | [10:50] |
| shrysr: | computer, and not having read the news in a long time. | [10:50] |
| shrysr: | The most remarkable example of change in nature b/w US and Can – I experienced on a greyhound bus ride from toronto to NYC…. they switch drivers at the border. ALmost feels like the air changes at that point. There is a 'world' of difference between immigration officials of these countries for sure! Sit on the bus in toronto – they explain wazzaaa and the 'travel plan' etc… even help you plonk in big | [11:00] |
| shrysr: | bags. Exact opposite when you get on in NY. Not a Single word is spoken. lol, don't even get answers to questions asked.. disharmony and … some sort of 'oppression'/arrogance (for lack of better word) in the air. | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | lol, that sounds very… communist/soviet of them. | [11:19] |
| diana_coman: | aka of the US you describe. | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002643 – sounds ok. | [11:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 10:13:48 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001733 << forgot to mention i checked this out few days ago – will need visa as it is based on nationality and not PR. believe added complication is that the visa involves a biometric process, and so will have to show up to consulate to get done. I think it wd be sensible to plan for this in the first half of 2020, and think it is important to do. | [11:21] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002645 – hm, my (admiteddly, limited) interactions with people from that area in a more formal setting tends to paint a different picture: the focus is not at all on politically correct but on lip-service to authority (and possibly savage beating of the underlings) | [11:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 10:50:17 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-15#1002619 << well fwiw i think the article describes something that is quite the norm in india, i.e the 'politically correct' expression, esp in business. i think canadians are polite in the sense – wd apologise profusely but still bother significantly less abt saying something inapppropriate. I wdnt say i've gotta great feel for them being mostly glued to | [11:26] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 05:24:53 diana_coman: ahaha shrysr look what I found for you (while searching for a different post actually) – it'll probably resonate with your polite canadians and all that: http://ossasepia.com/2013/06/16/intellectually-fit-as-socially-misfit/ | [11:26] |
| diana_coman: | ie a problem more of inept and insecure bosses ultimately than of anything else | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | onth canadians/brits will indeed bother less about preserving the "prestige" of the boss but are bothered tremendously to the point of being severely restrained by the group-signalling | [11:33] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose the similarity is in that *both* cases are bent on appearance rather than substance but the difference is simply that for one set the reference is boss-approval, while for the other the reference is the fashion/social-consensus. | [12:13] |
| shrysr: | yea. i think lip service describes it a lot better than politically correct. The impression gathered from my dads stories is that there was a generation of people, who cared abt quality and competence… and spent a long time gathering it and propagating it atleast to ppl directly under them, sort of similar to the way guidance/apprenticeship is looked at here. I supppose many of these ppl are approaching | [13:46] |
| shrysr: | senility now. this appears largely absent in todays bosses from what i have seen…. and i also think it is a major reason why i've been … well.. roaming like a gypsy. | [13:46] |
| shrysr: | UK and USA fwiw is actually among the 'hot spots' of CFD work. I was talking to one of my few friends from my time in Leeds, who has been posted in coventry for a bit… we were remarking that the CFD engg is treated as a ..well a reasonably prized possession there, whereas the attitude is quite opposite in india. Hez an electronics engg and older ~5 yrs and has been with the same automotive company since | [13:53] |
| shrysr: | being recruited out of uni… and i've never been in the automotive industry. It was a re-confirmation of my view point of CFD i guess. | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002660 – the part re past generation is quite likely actually; but it's more generally spread, not india-only, that's the bigger issue and part of the signs of decay. | [14:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 13:46:52 shrysr: yea. i think lip service describes it a lot better than politically correct. The impression gathered from my dads stories is that there was a generation of people, who cared abt quality and competence… and spent a long time gathering it and propagating it atleast to ppl directly under them, sort of similar to the way guidance/apprenticeship is looked at here. I supppose many of these ppl are approaching | [14:39] |
| lobbes: | phew I ate #t logs, now to eat #o logs! | [14:57] |
| diana_coman: | bon appetit! | [15:00] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: i presume i need to eat #t everyday? I've been focused on #o and not so regular on #t so far tbh. | [15:18] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 << I've been contemplating the offer, which certainly sounds like a great opportunity, and doing the looking around. My next few days are packed so I will get back to it on Wednesday. My main question for now, that I may better evaluate my fitness for it, is what does 'submit to training' entail? My sense so far is that it's a | [15:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:08:16 diana_coman: have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [15:56] |
| jfw: | mix of advising on one's own goals, assigned reading/writing, and helping with your projects as the possibility arises. | [15:56] |
| jfw: | Relatedly, is there to be a prescribed pace, beyond the minimums of say http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002668 ? Or is it more about setting one's own deadlines and honoring them (or some other standard entirely)? | [15:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 15:18:57 shrysr: diana_coman: i presume i need to eat #t everyday? I've been focused on #o and not so regular on #t so far tbh. | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re #trilema – only to the extent that you actually have time; while it's always good to follow, you still have more pressing matters than following that; lobbes has been around and more involved for much more so for him it's less of a jump than it is for you. | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | just do for now first and foremost what you have on your plate and you'll get to #t soon too, don't worry about it just yet. | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Sep-2019#1002669 – you should read the #ossasepia log as it's not that long and it'll answer your question best, eg this thread http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Jul-2019#999773 | [16:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-15 15:56:28 jfw: diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 << I've been contemplating the offer, which certainly sounds like a great opportunity, and doing the looking around. My next few days are packed so I will get back to it on Wednesday. My main question for now, that I may better evaluate my fitness for it, is what does 'submit to training' entail? My sense so far is that it's a | [16:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-30 11:02:00 diana_coman: ultimately yes, learning happens only if you submit to a teacher; is this news? |
[16:48] |
| diana_coman: | to make it perfectly clear: it's submitting to me as a mentor, not to some "prescribed pace" or programme or whatever; it's a relationship mentor-mentee and as such fully dependent on the people involved; for that matter, you may apply and I'll try to get to know you a bit better first before I can decide if I'll take you on or not. | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | this thread is relevant too: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002521 | [16:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:18:30 diana_coman: and since this will be a licensed castle too, there will be the proper rankings as well (pageboy as entry level, squire as middle level and knight at graduation) | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: understand though this: the goal is to bring *you* up to the best you can be and as such the tasks and exact working will inevitably depend on what you need; while there are topics and that all need to master and skills that all need to acquire, the exact path is *not* predefined and I fully intend to keep it that way. | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, you'll have to submit to my judgement and to commit for the long term too as it'll take some time (how much it all takes depends on you really). | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: to give a clearer example of "submit to me" – by "what you need" I fully mean what I see that you need; this might at times clash with what you think you need but while you are welcome to ask questions to improve your understanding of why you are asked to do that, you will still have to do it if I asked for it. | [17:08] |
| jfw: | Alright. I will plan to read the full log, and look forward to finding out in due course if I am worthy of pageboyhood. | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: cool; feel free to ask any further questions you have. | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: btw a quite crucial bit is this http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002605 | [17:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 20:48:31 shrysr: thought – if found+fired – then so be it. if allowed – i might even venture to say – there is no point being here…and not .. well being honest / vulnerable – in order to become stronger, as I think you advised before. | [17:18] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: I had a thought: should my eventual 'penance' posts be on younghands.club do you think? Or should they be from my personal blog still? | [19:35] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002064 << did you mean that as in 'sweet youth n innocence' = impossible? I believe what i've written.. but idk – it seems most others find such happiness through other means like marriage/kids? I've wonderd if it basically means that as a human, you are wired to find wholesome happiness caring for/ being with a companion… and that my view of wholesome | [20:16] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:46:12 diana_coman: 6.1 is endearing | [20:16] |
| shrysr: | happiness is incomplete. For eg w.r.t spending money – i've felt more happiness/pleasure getting stuff for others, and a happiness of …relatively ephemeral and superficial nature while indulging in maself. However, i've also thought relationships/starting family fundamentally a time sink, potentially quick-sand.. done out of a fear of being lonely more than anything else. | [20:16] |
| shrysr: | http://trilema.com/2013/the-stock-warrant-instrument-explained/#selection-73.231-73.271 << ima been re-reading several times – but still having trouble defining what a warrant is. Per selection – i understand that the warrants enable the fisherman to put money on table w/o being investor – but I'm thinking – by bringing money to the table – the fisherman *is* an investor even if you wanna call it warrant? | [21:14] |
| shrysr: | or is a warrant more like… a loan, money that the fisherman does not have? | [21:14] |
| shrysr: | but even if a loan – fisherman bringing any money at all to fuel venture makes him investor? | [21:16] |
| shrysr: | http://trilema.com/2013/the-stock-warrant-instrument-explained/#selection-43.685-43.721 << for eg : if investor already put in 100 btc for tools… then why does fisherman have to bring in anything? he cd just take boat+tools and get fish, return with 200btc of fish? fisherman borrows 100 btc is shown —> does | [21:21] |
| shrysr: | this mean that the fisherman put in 100btc investment – in order to be able to catch 200 btc worth of fish, which was not possible with the 100 btc investment? | [21:21] |
| shrysr: | also is the correct notation btc or BTC? | [21:23] |
| lobbes: | I've seen both used fwiw. most will be able to parse | [21:23] |
| shrysr: | hmm the article itself had both btc and BTC… was confused a sec, but the addition/explanation does appear to indicate both notations are acceptable. | [21:27] |
| shrysr: | re: SSW piece, footnote (ii) makes it almost clear actually.. i think. Warrants are negotiated by fisherman with investor/money-lender (?) ..can it be said that warrants are a way to 'stake a claim' in the total return from the whole venture, based on risk to the participant? hmm so if fisherman got instead 200 btc of warrants to investors 100 btc – the total value of venture 400 btc (200 btc (fish) + 200 | [22:33] |
| shrysr: | (warrants)) would be divided now among 300 shares (100 investor + 200 fisherman warrants), with 1/3rd going to investor and 2/3rds going to fisherman. but it doesnt seem to only be 'staking a claim', because the warrants are also being added to the total value of the venture, in addition to increasing shares (of the fisherman). why are warrants being added to the total value of the venture, whereas | [22:33] |
| shrysr: | investor's 100 btc are considered only for shares? | [22:33] |
| shrysr: | so warrant in total : stake of claim on total value (results) based on risk + represent the value addition of the participant to the whole… activity/deal? | [22:46] |
#ossasepia Logs for 14 Sep 2019
| lobbes: | welcome jfw here as well! lol. diana_coman this is Jacob Welsh (he's commented on a few things on Trilema and my own blog). I pointed him to your castle | [00:36] |
| jfw: | A vast republic of many castles! I think I'll start here because my current quest is blogotronics, which has me digging into a MySQL build and I see diana_coman was wrestling with it in http://ossasepia.com/2018/07/14/cutting-mysql-into-musl-shape/ | [00:49] |
| jfw: | Some findings so far are that in version 5.1.70 there was a choice of autoconf or cmake build system, but by 5.5.14 the former was gone and the latter had swollen, and that trend continued into 5.5.62 | [00:55] |
| jfw: | My aim is to study the build system, upon finding a version worth studying. Alternatively, I'd be up for pursuing http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2018-12-04#1878226 if that's still in effect | [01:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2018-12-04 02:09:55 mircea_popescu: i suspect some work on trying mp-wp in a postgres environment would be quite beneficial at this juncture, even. | [01:02] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002478 – that is something only you can answer really; it was you who considered the situation totally unsustainable, it is you who are there, so you'll have to (re-)evaluate and decide; but mind that you consider what is not what would be comfortable if it were. | [04:53] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 16:28:14 shrysr: diana_coman: Re: urgency of mine shift — shd this be re-eval despite everything established? -> heard some indications yest that business slightly picking up. Had already planned to ask for raise (more like revision) long ago. The thought was: show some carrots (1-2 aspects of ERP prolly functional (to be confirmed) to be used pronto) + ask for raise and show glimpses of some future carrots (was asked | [04:53] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw from what you say ^ and next quote, it sounds like you have some more time with them, if you want it, yes; onth *you* said earlier that they are extremily volatile so either a. they are so you can't rely on what "seems" or b. they aren't and you should re-evaluate your evaluation process | [04:55] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002480 – have fun | [04:58] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 22:28:44 whaack: hola. i'm going to be in transit for a week starting tomorrow (setting up lease in CR) and will therefore be sending any messages from a travel-handle. | [04:58] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002486 – well, what do you want otherwise, exactly? | [04:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 22:57:08 whaack: it's inconvenient for anything save surfing and having peace and quiet | [04:59] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002488 – what's the plan for after that then? | [04:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 23:01:34 whaack: yessir. it's a good gig but it only lasts until February. | [04:59] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002490 – hello jfw ; the mysql version is *frozen* at that, I won't upgrade to whatever; you can ofc spend your time investigating the buildup of nonsense over any versions you want but it's worth anything only to the extent you actually document it | [05:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 00:49:49 jfw: A vast republic of many castles! I think I'll start here because my current quest is blogotronics, which has me digging into a MySQL build and I see diana_coman was wrestling with it in http://ossasepia.com/2018/07/14/cutting-mysql-into-musl-shape/ | [05:01] |
| diana_coman: | as in properly, on your blog, not in snippets here. | [05:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002492 – if by "build system" you mean autoconf and make and all that shit, uhm; if you want to do something useful in this direction of builds, you should install cuntoo | [05:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 01:02:56 jfw: My aim is to study the build system, upon finding a version worth studying. Alternatively, I'd be up for pursuing http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2018-12-04#1878226 if that's still in effect | [05:03] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what do you want to get from being here? | [05:03] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/09/the-next-phases-of-escape/?b=wasting&e=#select – fwiw, it's very aptly put but also very sinful; one of those things for which you'll really have to do penance if you haven't done it already. | [05:05] |
| diana_coman: | because it is wasting and on the path to derealisation, nothing more, no matter how pleasant that nice warm water the you-frog found | [05:07] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-20 15:47:00 diana_coman: this is a bit like the frog saying "jumping in this slightly warmer water certainly feels more feasible than jumping into the scalding water directly and thus possibly reduce conflict or pain overall in the journey" ; and the frog is right! it reduces conflict and pain overall in the journey to boiled frog! |
[05:07] |
| jfw: | Hello diana_coman. Thank you for the direct question, I had to think it over a bit. What I want is to sharpen my technical skills, expand my general knowledge, do useful things, and communicate them effectively; and TMSR is by far the most promising venue I have found for this. | [05:27] |
| jfw: | I've got some of these already from following logs and blogs (quite incompletely) but fear I have been remiss on the communication in particular; manaloning, that is. | [05:29] |
| jfw: | For example, I've put together my own Linux distribution, based on musl, busybox, gcc 4.7 and fully static linking, with a rudimentary ports system. Due to not using Portage I suspect it has a rather different set of problems from Cuntoo. | [05:40] |
| jfw: | I understand a blog will be the proper way to present things; probably you're right that going with a system with existing mysql build is best for getting that operational quickly. | [05:49] |
| jfw: | oh, I shouldn't say "you're right that …" as I may be mis-paraphrasing. | [05:50] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: this castle of mine here is made precisely to train people up, as far as they can go; the About page on http://younghands.club/ gives a brief description ; there's the outreach category on my blog, related to this too http://ossasepia.com/category/dark-modern-ages/outreach/ | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [09:08] |
| diana_coman: | whaack, tanami – the above is valid for you too. | [09:12] |
| diana_coman: | if anyone else is interested, speak up. | [09:12] |
| diana_coman: | and since this will be a licensed castle too, there will be the proper rankings as well (pageboy as entry level, squire as middle level and knight at graduation) | [09:18] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002514 – so stop suspecting and instead, just install Cuntoo, do the comparison to find out the differences and write it down properly | [09:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 05:40:31 jfw: For example, I've put together my own Linux distribution, based on musl, busybox, gcc 4.7 and fully static linking, with a rudimentary ports system. Due to not using Portage I suspect it has a rather different set of problems from Cuntoo. | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002516 – there was nothing about "getting that operational quickly" for sure | [09:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 05:50:55 jfw: oh, I shouldn't say "you're right that …" as I may be mis-paraphrasing. | [09:31] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: at any rate, before "what task", you'll need to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002518 ; | [09:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:08:16 diana_coman: have a look around, ask any questions you need to ask and if/when you decide you want to submit to training here, say so. | [09:32] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002522 << http://trilema.com/2019/concedo-hoc/#selection-67.69-67.151 : why so? | [11:30] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 09:02:51 diana_coman: and since this will be a licensed castle too, there will be the proper rankings as well (pageboy as entry level, squire as middle level and knight at graduation) | [11:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: why what? | [11:32] |
| shrysr: | why not english ? | [11:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you mean why is the grant in Latin? | [11:34] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: well yes, originally meant why it is mentioned in the selection – obv not english? | [11:35] |
| diana_coman: | the answer to that is rather long but in a nutshell: because the alignment of the republic is much closer to Latin than to English (and that's in a deeper sense than "just language"); and to flesh this out for you just a tiny bit: a. English has a very poor a. record regarding actual learning and development; contrast the English-speaking empire + colonies with the previous (and much more durable, at that) Latin world b. English is also a | [11:38] |
| diana_coman: | rather "thin" language | [11:38] |
| diana_coman: | ie while it might be comparatively easy to learn, it provides way less support for your reasoning and expression | [11:40] |
| shrysr: | hmm i think i see what you mean. | [11:43] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002497 << def (a), no question at all. anyway – switch aint gonna happen overnight.. i dont think i should bother taking extra steps to prolong stay. | [11:46] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 04:39:36 diana_coman: fwiw from what you say ^ and next quote, it sounds like you have some more time with them, if you want it, yes; onth *you* said earlier that they are extremily volatile so either a. they are so you can't rely on what "seems" or b. they aren't and you should re-evaluate your evaluation process | [11:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: sounds sensible. | [11:47] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002510 << agreed, and it was necessary for me to jump out of that slowly boiling pot and onto the comparatively cold counter. Derealisation is a great way to put it.. | [14:45] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 08:06:42 diana_coman: lobbes: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/09/the-next-phases-of-escape/?b=wasting&e=#select – fwiw, it's very aptly put but also very sinful; one of those things for which you'll really have to do penance if you haven't done it already. | [14:45] |
| lobbes: | Now, question is: what is proper penance in your opinion? | [14:45] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: hm, I'd say along the lines of a weekly post dissecting on a specific instance of this sort of wasting away towards derealisation; with the stark description of the specific instance and why you won't indulge in it again pretty much. | [14:56] |
| diana_coman: | the "rawer" you can make it, the more the gain for you (and through several avenues as you go deeper AND you'll remember it – that's one role of pain – more afterwards and steer away from it, hopefully) | [14:58] |
| diana_coman: | as to how long… you know exactly how much you have to atone to yourself for but probably 3 posts is a minimum. | [14:59] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: interesting. I will do this, ty | [15:05] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: yw | [15:34] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: you know I realised I don't even actually know your name? would you mind some probing? | [18:22] |
| bvt: | hi. i did not drop it into the logs so far, if you're interested i can gpg; but anyway, we can do a guessing game as well | [18:30] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: why the secrecy though? | [18:30] |
| bvt: | initially i was concerned that people at my workplace might not tolerate it very well, if they ever learn about it | [18:33] |
| bvt: | upon consideration, not that i care very much | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter, asking people to keep your secrets is essentially asking them for a favour so not sure how you reason there that it's in my interest rather than yours | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: are you done with that PhD? or doing it in/with industry? | [18:34] |
| bvt: | i agree | [18:35] |
| bvt: | no, i'll still be phding for a half a year | [18:36] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: what are the plans after that? | [18:36] |
| bvt: | currently in academia, very convenient – at times i'd spent half a day for republican work, noone cares about that (can always say 'learning ada') | [18:37] |
| bvt: | after that i plan to stick go for a industrial lab for a year, should bring me more money (as much as this is possible in germany – i.e., not at all) | [18:38] |
| diana_coman: | why germany then? | [18:39] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, that "make your own hours and cut your own work to some degree" was one of the few good things I still recall from academia, indeed. | [18:40] |
| bvt: | after that i'll see if i move out, and if yes, then where – it's either ukraine, where i still have a bit of meatwot, or perhaps will follow BingoBoingo/lobbes to south america – have some relatives there as well | [18:41] |
| BingoBoingo: | bvt: Where in South America? It's not exactly the smallest place | [18:41] |
| bvt: | i went there for study from ukraine, stuck at the university because phd salary is bigger that for devs at junior position | [18:42] |
| bvt: | paraguay | [18:42] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: did you actually run the numbers re "bring me more money"? | [18:42] |
| bvt: | yes, came out ~300 eur/month better as phd | [18:43] |
| diana_coman: | lolz, that's not what I meant | [18:43] |
| bvt: | ah, you mean at the industial lab? | [18:43] |
| BingoBoingo: | bvt: I hear good things about Paraguay except with regard to its weather. | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | what I meant is: 1. clear plan re "how much more do I want before exit and what's max timeframe I think I can still stay here without being sucked into the chumpatron/bottle/drugs/whatever-you-do-down-the-slope" 2. what options for that can I find when looking at ALL options I can think of 3. projection + comparison | [18:45] |
| bvt: | yes, paraguay is very nice, however 'nice' is nothing of substance when you actually consider living there. | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | the above re after phd; otherwise in phd vs junior dev, the phd I'd say wins *anyway*, simply because more mind-space that is worth more in itself, even if the pay wasn't better. | [18:46] |
| bvt: | i have a timeframe of one year there for the reasons that don't have anything to do with money – i.e. if they won't have anything that will make me actively want to stay, i'll default to moving out. | [18:49] |
| bvt: | i do not seriously consider (so far) options of moving to places where i won't have at least some attachment to local meatwot | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | and if they do? (also: what sort of thing would make you want to stay? remember those negative spaces too…) | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002552 – ftr this is precisely the sort of dissonance that will break you in the end. | [18:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 18:33:33 bvt: initially i was concerned that people at my workplace might not tolerate it very well, if they ever learn about it | [18:54] |
| bvt: | if they do, i'll re-run the evaluation in a year. re what they can come up with – i don't know. i let them come up with something – the work that they promise very sounds interesting so far; money don't enter into it because in ukraine i'd get more with spending less | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: is that work more interesting than anything you can find around tmsr or how do you reason there since money doesn't even enter? it's rather…puzzling let's say. | [18:57] |
| bvt: | how it meshes with republican work is an interesting questions; i'd get to learn stuff that is interesting to me – think continuing phd, perhaps in more intensive conditions; and get some salary in process. | [19:01] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: and live one more year and then one more year and another quite the same? fwiw, in all the above there isn't anywhere even the slightest trace of considering also… what is missing/not there, the negative spaces. | [19:05] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: how old are you? | [19:07] |
| bvt: | 27 | [19:07] |
| diana_coman: | not too young and not too old | [19:10] |
| bvt: | re negative spaces – the thing here is that just moving to a different place is not that big change of life in itself. i.e. the necessary change has to be at a different level than just moving to a different place – pros and cons of THAT is easy to estimate | [19:10] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: by "necessary change" do you mean the deep change of "uprooting"/living in a different place? | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | if that's the case: while that change is both real and indeed quite impossible to estimate correctly upfront (you can't know what you don't know), it's not really what matters in the first place, because it can't even be a cause. | [19:18] |
| diana_coman: | as it's not a cause, it's not what you are looking at when you decide "what next" | [19:19] |
| diana_coman: | will bblx01 | [19:20] |
| bvt: | i can not currently express it in the words, but to at least try: due to the immutable past that i had i overtrained in one areas and skipped others; and as i see it, this would push me to a ~similar way of living everywhere – yes, food/money/people around may be different, but if life for me = X, succeeding at building X at the new place may be ~as bad as failing at life there at all. i.e. – i could move | [19:28] |
| bvt: | to ukraine in ~3 month if decision if made; and then what, find the same kind of job? yes, quality of life would improve, but the i expect the change to be quantative, not qualitative. | [19:28] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: may I ask why UK, and howddya choose Reading? | [19:35] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002338 << does a master need to have, well, slaves or knights or etc to be master, or grow as a master? It does not appear mandatory as a qualification, when it is linked to being free, but what abt growth as a master? Being free/master != being perfect innit ? | [19:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 16:48:00 diana_coman: re being a master though, I'd say it's one of those things – when/if you are one, you'll know; before that you can of course bang your head on "I want to be one" and shout loudly as to why it doesn't work, plenty do precisely that. | [19:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 17:06:09 diana_coman: shrysr: perhaps it's clearer put whether you can stand to be fully free or not; links back to the causes and purposes, remember? | [19:54] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002593 << curious to ask: arent these overtrained areas – predominantly areas of your own choice + interest? and is there no scope to assimilate the skipped areas you need to result in a qualitative difference? | [20:07] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 19:13:12 bvt: i can not currently express it in the words, but to at least try: due to the immutable past that i had i overtrained in one areas and skipped others; and as i see it, this would push me to a ~similar way of living everywhere – yes, food/money/people around may be different, but if life for me = X, succeeding at building X at the new place may be ~as bad as failing at life there at all. i.e. – i could move | [20:07] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002553 << fwiw I dropped my real name in the #t logs about a year ago; so far no negative repercussions | [20:36] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 21:34:22 bvt: initially i was concerned that people at my workplace might not tolerate it very well, if they ever learn about it | [20:36] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2018-02-14 13:11:26 lobbes: Can always just state realname in logs/blog and point to it when asked. (speaking of which, I realize I never have done this. So, for the logs, my real name is Eric Benevides) | [20:36] |
| lobbes: | and the work I do here is pretty much in direct opposition to my meatwork (I'm sure running an auctionbot violates some 'financial crimes / compliance' ordinance somewhere). But then again I'm small potatoes so who knows.. | [20:36] |
| shrysr: | lobbes: lol for all the hiding i tried to do…. atleast initially – i left plenty of easy evidence as to who i am…. and have been open abt criticising mine(s) and sharing some shit i 'shdnt'. I think at some point… it dawned one me that trusting diana_coman with the truth is far more…sensible for primarily my own benefit, and also as respect for her time and others in chan of course… and perhaps I | [20:48] |
| shrysr: | thought – if found+fired – then so be it. if allowed – i might even venture to say – there is no point being here…and not .. well being honest / vulnerable – in order to become stronger, as I think you advised before. | [20:48] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: this is a traditional noob phobia, but ftr has happened to 0 people to date. | [20:49] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: :D me being the noob-iest to enter i presume | [20:51] |
| lobbes: | shrysr: yeah, I think that was my eventual reasoning path as well. I did the hiding thing for about 4 years before finally saying "fuck it. the cost/benefit actually points to the cost is greater if I *don't* share" | [20:51] |
| lobbes: | it helped that asciilifeform's blog has his real name, and I observed he's still waiting on that gasenwagen to date! | [20:52] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: since day1 ('07) in fact | [20:52] |
#ossasepia Logs for 13 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002339 – btw the reason why I pointed out this particular bit is precisely because from what I read – since not yet actually seen – of you, it stuck out as not-you (more like something still sticking to you). | [03:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 17:06:35 diana_coman: shrysr: my pointing out to you the "make money from" was a bit of mirror-holding and pointing out what you didn't seem to have noticed. | [03:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 13:43:29 diana_coman: shrysr: so come and visit Reading, have a talk face to face at least, then. | [03:22] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: my general understanding of the feudal code goes like – theres an … emperor of all the 'land', but then there are kings or leaders of various provinces (who are either conquered by force or via deals – eg getting stuff they usually cant find without great difficulty or enticements) – kings n leaders pay tribute (possibly in forms other than money) to the emperor, who supposed to protect em | [11:10] |
| shrysr: | to some extent atleast. Each king/leader shd have their own lil army … cd even be a coalition of sorts there i guess. emperor got his own army. during war – presume the lesser lords supposed to supply men/stuff to emperor whether they agree with the cause or not. | [11:11] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002371 hmm i was thinking in any relationship with master whether slave or knight – there is still an opportunity to evolve? | [11:23] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 17:15:46 diana_coman: dunno, some prefer to be slaves, you know? | [11:23] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that's more of a rather confused description of the situation at some point in the Dark Ages, than anything to do with the feudal code itself | [11:33] |
| diana_coman: | tbf, I suppose I should have said page or at most squire since that's the proper title for knight-in-training; at this rate I'll end up drawing a flag and writing down the whole thing, ha. | [11:34] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002334 << i believe this is important. I am not immune to what seems to be some kindda inherent jealousy..(he got that wtf and i gotta hav that n fuck loads more.. because i .. am better?). while the predominant drive is becoming better for becoming better – there is also a sense of competition. Well this rears up head sometimes without control, but | [11:37] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 16:42:22 diana_coman: and yes, the advantage of striving to fulfill exactly what you are made for is that you'll be better at that than at anything else; but *all* of this is really by comparison to yourself (potential versions, let's say), not to someone else. | [11:37] |
| shrysr: | passes as well without too much damage. The good thing is that i am aware of it … and try to immediately course correct because I think such comparison.. is well orcish-ugly and not even sensible. | [11:37] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: anyway, the core of the code was essentially what you'd call now a "code of conduct" but otherwise and more to the point, an attempt to state the relationship between lord (liege/master) and knight (as lower, trained nobility) | [11:38] |
| diana_coman: | for one thing, not just anyone could even train to become a knight | [11:39] |
| shrysr: | classification based on profession + lineage ? | [11:40] |
| diana_coman: | for the other, it was quite a lot of training anyway and only the last stage was effectively direct training with a mentor | [11:40] |
| diana_coman: | as for the feudal relationship of vasselage – the core of it would be that : a. the lord offers protection and guidance, possibly also a fief b. the vassal in return pledges unconditional loyalty and support when asked for it (in pretty much whatever form is asked for) | [11:43] |
| diana_coman: | vassalage* | [11:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: now if you want to go further back to get to a working slave system aka pretty much the Romans, there were plenty of freed slaves that went on to become ~everything, yes | [11:44] |
| diana_coman: | the crucial difference is that a slave pledges himself *entirely* as in fully, to the master to do with him as the master considers best (the expression is "pleases"). | [11:45] |
| diana_coman: | and whether/when a slave is freed is entirely up to the master too – basically when and if the master considers that the slave deserves it. | [11:47] |
| diana_coman: | normally after granting/receiving freedom, the relationship simply moves on to a different stage that is effectively closer to vassalage above though less formal perhaps | [11:48] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there is very little new under the sun, in other words: people have always needed mentors to learn from and as such, the relationships are still essentially the same, under one name or another and more explicit or less, depending on the age. | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002391 – one cure to this comes quite naturally when you are too busy with your own shit to have time for jealousy :D | [11:53] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:37:43 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002334 << i believe this is important. I am not immune to what seems to be some kindda inherent jealousy..(he got that wtf and i gotta hav that n fuck loads more.. because i .. am better?). while the predominant drive is becoming better for becoming better – there is also a sense of competition. Well this rears up head sometimes without control, but | [11:53] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 16:42:22 diana_coman: and yes, the advantage of striving to fulfill exactly what you are made for is that you'll be better at that than at anything else; but *all* of this is really by comparison to yourself (potential versions, let's say), not to someone else. | [11:53] |
| shrysr: | i guess thats how i meant it 'passes'… i'd just… forget. Sometimes it would linger I would need to wrestle, but a lotta times, it was more like.. forgotten. | [11:57] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: rounding up the feudal code, knights, slaves and all that: progression is always possible, of course, like in any human relationship; however, there are some bits that normally (ie unless catastrophic breakout) remain quite fixed, namely protection+help+advice from the master and loyalty+support when and as asked in return | [11:57] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: don't wrestle with it, study it; look at precisely what and where and why it affects you, because there is always in fact some hole in *you* that resonates out in that particular form; btw, it's the same thing when you "feel insulted", since it came up quite a few times in your writing | [11:59] |
| diana_coman: | every time you "feel insulted", it's in fact some insecurity of your own that comes to light; nothing to do with the "insult" | [12:00] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: all the above being said, competition and being competitive is absolutely FINE and PROPER | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | just don't get bitter over it – get instead better! | [12:01] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002409 – this should be in fact either help+advice for loyalty+support when and as asked or protection+help+advice for obeisance (as in doing as told, not courtly gestures only) + loyalty+support | [12:04] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:57:56 diana_coman: shrysr: rounding up the feudal code, knights, slaves and all that: progression is always possible, of course, like in any human relationship; however, there are some bits that normally (ie unless catastrophic breakout) remain quite fixed, namely protection+help+advice from the master and loyalty+support when and as asked in return | [12:04] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002396 – no, not just a classification; a way of life. | [12:07] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:40:19 shrysr: classification based on profession + lineage ? | [12:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: note that beyond the definitions/codes/whatever and like with each and any relationship, the outcome and actual experience always and inevitably depends on the people involved, nothing else. | [12:14] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-13#1002399 << /me likey sound of fief :D. i think after reading above description of feudal code – slave could become quite boring.. i see a *lot* is dependent on both nature of master and nature of slave… and thats why you described it as a choice? hehe knight gets to fight 'off' frustration and go off on quests… (eventually after training wheels get | [12:14] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:27:31 diana_coman: as for the feudal relationship of vasselage – the core of it would be that : a. the lord offers protection and guidance, possibly also a fief b. the vassal in return pledges unconditional loyalty and support when asked for it (in pretty much whatever form is asked for) | [12:14] |
| shrysr: | off). | [12:14] |
| diana_coman: | knights were mounted cavalry, yes, mainly because that's what "heavy fighting machine" meant in that particular age | [12:15] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yep, all of it really depends on the people involved, absolutely; that's why there is no such thing as "x is happy to be a slave/knight" but there IS such a thing as "X is more than happy to be a slave/knight to Y" | [12:16] |
| shrysr: | i see what you mean here. | [12:18] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: heh, fief was part of vassalage and not always/mandatory; again, a matter between X and Y. | [12:18] |
| shrysr: | lol ok | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: other than fief-interest and quest-likes, any trouble with the rest? | [12:23] |
| shrysr: | still digesting tbh. | [12:23] |
| diana_coman: | take your time | [12:23] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-13#1002412 << i am inclined to believe this is true. w.r.t insult – i tend to think that… boss or not – human with functional brain shd be well… atleast rational, esp at professional env. i guess at that point, encountering clear non-sense – there is a 'loss of respect' towards the other person, and a thinking that boss or whoever shd be displaced or put | [12:36] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 11:44:46 diana_coman: every time you "feel insulted", it's in fact some insecurity of your own that comes to light; nothing to do with the "insult" | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | into place atleast, but i know i cant *do* shit…punch till unconscious.. and many times – even different words seem to be wasted as well. well mostly cannnot do anything on the spot, unless i am terribly cunning (dont seem to be when i need to, and terribly shrewd at *also* judging 'current' mood + awareness of other parallel influencing events, in addition to 'basic nature' (which i guess I am not bad | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | at, given time)) and most of the time the 'long-game' doesnt seem worthy of effort or even sensible… i think the end result is rage over my impotence something. | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | and i guess I call it insult… because perhaps i also translate it to the other person being irrationally stubborn is because they think in turn I am an asshole…. or more likely.. a threat. whereas – afaik i never approach with an objective of threat/insult.. i think to truly grow – boss needs my help, and i need his help… and proper growth is fucking together… i aint looking to eat you – but you | [12:48] |
| shrysr: | are blind to see it, no matter … how many work-arounds in words i devise. There is trust after a point in work output / judgement sure – but accompanied by perennial fear of being displaced – but no recognition of loyalty that i take even extra effort to show, despite said 'loss of respect' in my mind. I guess translates to rage over impotence and just 'unfair, wtf d00d'? | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: by the sound of it (and fitting previous accounts from you), you tend to construct too much on thin air ie in your mind only; all those translations you made don't have a very solid basis. | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002434 – that "boss needs my help" is dubious at best. | [12:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 12:48:25 shrysr: and i guess I call it insult… because perhaps i also translate it to the other person being irrationally stubborn is because they think in turn I am an asshole…. or more likely.. a threat. whereas – afaik i never approach with an objective of threat/insult.. i think to truly grow – boss needs my help, and i need his help… and proper growth is fucking together… i aint looking to eat you – but you | [12:57] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter – what are you looking for as "recognition of loyalty"? | [12:57] |
| shrysr: | not dubious imho based on salt-mines i have seen… if you mean without me – business / boss wd not die : agreed. However, to solve problems – yes, simply because i had skills / able to learn stuff that they cdnt touch with barge pole and necessary to solve problem! | [13:00] |
| shrysr: | brb 10 min | [13:00] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: eh, sounds like "problem needed my help". | [13:17] |
| shrysr: | recognition of loyalty — something akin to partnership? i.e recognition that i aint talking with sole goal of rising in ranks or saying 'u are wrong', but that 'isnt this way more sensible/easier/better quality?', if yes – lets fuckin do it together… or you direct me how to do it even better with your exp (if not brain)? or if you wanna do it alone… fine! but if you counter saying – 'always done other | [13:21] |
| shrysr: | way… donno why.. dont really care, willing to be inefficient..rather than either me or you put in work.. lets suffer together.. but yea – you are right though.. now fuck off and lemme twiddle thumbs'? | [13:21] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: lol ok. well its not a problem if you dont have a solution to it is it? you've lived with a problem cause you didnt bend your mind to solve.. or didnt have skills.. etc. but i have a proposed solution, and you recognise its a problem… then what next? | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | well, for one thing and regardless of all the rest, you still *are* challenging the authority there so not much loyalty *to the person*; sure, you are loyal to the business; at any rate the whole thing does sound like "working with idiots" so …not worth banging head over it | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | solution is simple: don't work with idiots. | [13:27] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter, don't spend too much time with idiots either, it's unhygienic. | [13:27] |
| shrysr: | :)) | [13:29] |
| shrysr: | i have often wondered if *i* was the idiot. ok.. not so much loyalty to person. i admit trying to compensate by lying to soothe egos…holding door open etc servile acts..to 'display utter admiration'.. as a part of a 'game'. but my impression is …mostly seen as a ploy… or game to thwart even then. | [13:37] |
| diana_coman: | that's the trouble with not having a solid structure and clear processes to rely on: you are left wondering just who is the idiot. | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | and well, you were playing a game and it was perceived as a game, not that surprising; people are quite good of this sort of perception; as to "why", that is not perception but reason + applying it to you specifically so forget it, ofc they couldn't be arsed. | [13:40] |
| shrysr: | it was also hard to do… constantly felt defaced by self and perhaps was not truly consistent either due to lack of belief in gaming and sense of getting corrupted + waste of little brain power available. fwiw. i guess the 'thinking' style anyway shows everywhere else as you say… you discuss negotiation/strategy on 'how to win a job' or customer.. or solve a problem..etc ppl get a sense of how you think | [13:54] |
| shrysr: | i guess… they get more cognizant (and biased) with exp as well. i believe gaming cd work with ppl you don't interact with all that much… | [13:54] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: returning to task (1) due sunday: i think sufficient has been shared with me to say that – job needed for subsistence+savings till i find my way here, and further questions can be tackled as i progress/refine shit-in-head? Current env being extra toxic + plus justification / thought process necessary to switch to data-hag is established..also that the direction is aligned to potential tasks on | [14:32] |
| shrysr: | eulora. I dont think i have any major points to add to draft…other than referencing some portions of chan discussions. Seems more like it has to be a continuous effort/thought in bg to eventually find freedom? | [14:32] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002195 inb8 means? | [14:37] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 03:06:19 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002157 – inb8 shrysr wants to unleash machine learning on such data to extract precious knowledge out of the fudge :D | [14:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:35:59 lobbes: I've lost count of how many times the 'reports' are changed/fudged before release, or how completely constructed ALL of the data is, or how many times I've heard that the various audit agents of the 'OCC' (office of comptrollers of the currency) literally just look for some \% of issues boxes to tick on their sheet. It is all pretend, to make it *look like something* is happening. To justify the printing | [14:37] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002453 – that's on the slippery slope of self-excuses, pay attention. | [15:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 13:54:49 shrysr: it was also hard to do… constantly felt defaced by self and perhaps was not truly consistent either due to lack of belief in gaming and sense of getting corrupted + waste of little brain power available. fwiw. i guess the 'thinking' style anyway shows everywhere else as you say… you discuss negotiation/strategy on 'how to win a job' or customer.. or solve a problem..etc ppl get a sense of how you think | [15:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [15:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 14:32:31 shrysr: diana_coman: returning to task (1) due sunday: i think sufficient has been shared with me to say that – job needed for subsistence+savings till i find my way here, and further questions can be tackled as i progress/refine shit-in-head? Current env being extra toxic + plus justification / thought process necessary to switch to data-hag is established..also that the direction is aligned to potential tasks on | [15:06] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002456 – the more of it that comes to foreground and is made public, the more others can help perhaps; other than that, yes – continuous work on it until you are there; note though that a plan is needed. | [15:07] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 14:32:33 shrysr: eulora. I dont think i have any major points to add to draft…other than referencing some portions of chan discussions. Seems more like it has to be a continuous effort/thought in bg to eventually find freedom? | [15:07] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002457 – my own sort of inb4; see urban dictionary I guess. | [15:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 14:37:34 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002195 inb8 means? | [15:08] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 03:06:19 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002157 – inb8 shrysr wants to unleash machine learning on such data to extract precious knowledge out of the fudge :D | [15:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:35:59 lobbes: I've lost count of how many times the 'reports' are changed/fudged before release, or how completely constructed ALL of the data is, or how many times I've heard that the various audit agents of the 'OCC' (office of comptrollers of the currency) literally just look for some \% of issues boxes to tick on their sheet. It is all pretend, to make it *look like something* is happening. To justify the printing | [15:08] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002347 : that does sound interesting. | [15:13] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 16:59:13 diana_coman: shrysr: the big current opening and the one that I thought might be interesting to you is re graphics: not necessarily making the art yourself but rather building up and running the needed infrastructure for the art market | [15:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so then… aim for it. | [15:56] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-13#1002463 ok. also re: foreground.. yes. I understand. will work on it. | [15:57] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 14:51:02 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Sep-2019#1002455 – that + more concrete data on subsistence options ie where & how much; don't limit here to can/india either – or if you do, say why. | [15:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-13 14:32:31 shrysr: diana_coman: returning to task (1) due sunday: i think sufficient has been shared with me to say that – job needed for subsistence+savings till i find my way here, and further questions can be tackled as i progress/refine shit-in-head? Current env being extra toxic + plus justification / thought process necessary to switch to data-hag is established..also that the direction is aligned to potential tasks on | [15:57] |
| shrysr: | re: alternatives – just found out that there are 'remote work-from-home' consultants for the company serving the erp s/w. I have asked my contact there abt how it works/feasibility. | [15:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: can't hurt to ask, for sure. | [16:14] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: Re: urgency of mine shift — shd this be re-eval despite everything established? -> heard some indications yest that business slightly picking up. Had already planned to ask for raise (more like revision) long ago. The thought was: show some carrots (1-2 aspects of ERP prolly functional (to be confirmed) to be used pronto) + ask for raise and show glimpses of some future carrots (was asked | [16:28] |
| shrysr: | suddenly today whether a 'QR' code cd be slapped onto products – so customers get tech specs pronto) –> gauge 'firing' mood via response. if deemed favorable, reduce urgency and shift focus back to V/eulora – ride out some more months? …. env established as toxic + volatile fwiw. above seems… sub-optimal for long term (except asking raise). | [16:28] |
| whaack: | hola. i'm going to be in transit for a week starting tomorrow (setting up lease in CR) and will therefore be sending any messages from a travel-handle. | [22:28] |
| lobbes: | safe travels whaack. (and congrats on the escape) | [22:46] |
| whaack: | tyvm lobbes. and if i may – judging from your blog your escape may be on the horizon | [22:52] |
| lobbes: | still in the early plotting stages, but yes, I don't think I want to die in the US that is for sure | [22:52] |
| lobbes: | going to take a trip to UY in the early spring to visit BingoBoingo at least. Start feeling out potential landing spots | [22:53] |
| whaack: | sounds nice, i'm going to want to visit there at some point as well. where im going in CR is somewhat of an emergency escape pod..the place i'm trying to close is a cheap place with nothing around it | [22:57] |
| whaack: | it's inconvenient for anything save surfing and having peace and quiet | [22:57] |
| lobbes: | peace and quiet is nice, at least. you got yourself one of those remote work gigs, right? That's my main concern for myself atm; steady income | [22:59] |
| whaack: | yessir. it's a good gig but it only lasts until February. | [23:01] |
#ossasepia Logs for 12 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002112 – the article describes a hierarchy of activities, not a "project"; ie you can do 1001 activities of type 1 (figuring out how stuff works) or not, it's not like a recipe of sorts | [03:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 19:10:47 shrysr: stacked chairs…crude .. some holes…some dependent on user permissions in windows by admin. even this was deemed 'wont work'… worked for 3+ years. 1 year in my absence after i left mine… which is when they finally bought a fucking computing cluster for simulations iirc. the point is – the whole project and thought process — very aligned to the layers described. | [03:13] |
| diana_coman: | in other words, it's a descriptive piece, useful to understand a part of human activities, not a prescriptive thing "you should follow those steps" | [03:14] |
| diana_coman: | but yes re alignment, that's why I've sent you to read it: because it fits and therefore you can use it as structure to start actually knowing yourself | [03:15] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002126 – ahahha; certifications, verifications, checks and all that – as long as there is nobody publicly and meaningfully taking responsibility, it'll be only empty labels, of course, what (and how) else. | [03:18] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:08:18 whaack: my recent job has me working with shithub. i uploaded code that i never signed that has a green sticker "verified" by me | [03:18] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002140 – it's not; the fact that you had the luck to find your way to just about the ~only place where yes, it is fundamental, doesn't mean that it's because "everyone knows it" or something. | [03:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:20:19 shrysr: well..even brief look at the ads is enough to confirm google does i guess? its prolly like treasure trove for em. … same for shithub.. how cd they not peek? i guess if i had chance – i def would… but isnt – private key / encryption or atleast fundamentals kindda 101 for atleast comp sci ppl ? | [03:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002157 – inb8 shrysr wants to unleash machine learning on such data to extract precious knowledge out of the fudge :D | [03:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:35:59 lobbes: I've lost count of how many times the 'reports' are changed/fudged before release, or how completely constructed ALL of the data is, or how many times I've heard that the various audit agents of the 'OCC' (office of comptrollers of the currency) literally just look for some \% of issues boxes to tick on their sheet. It is all pretend, to make it *look like something* is happening. To justify the printing | [03:21] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose if could be some fun to extract the patterns of fudging but I can't say I see much point/would be arsed. | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002116 – mk but this is not at all the thing explicitly requested in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1001997 | [03:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 21:09:59 whaack: diana_coman: so my previous work is a just few qntra articles http://qntra.net/author/whaack/ . I started to do research on how many coins are in the segwit ecosystem but did not finish. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741793 Stan mentioned from that thread that a sha256 in CL was needed, perhaps that is still an open task? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-23#1742513 | [03:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 13:28:55 diana_coman: whaack: maybe make a summary with any tmsr-related things that you did so far and otherwise any tmsr parts/items you find interesting | [03:26] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you have a blog, right? Summarise there "I did x with y results; and z with t results etc"; link everything relevant, sure, but summarise the main points so that reader doesn't HAVE TO follow your links to figure out wtf you did | [03:27] |
| diana_coman: | and part 2: take the time to go through all tmsr-things that you can find/figure out where to find and SUMMARISE that too: I looked in X and in Y and here's the list of things I found: t,p, r, etc. each of them with brief summary "this is my understanding re wtf this thing is" | [03:29] |
| diana_coman: | and part 3: based on 1 and 2 above, I'm very much interested in a,b,c,d etc , in *this order* | [03:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ack the above and ask for help if you need it | [03:30] |
| diana_coman: | understand though that you have to ask *for help*; you are not yet in a position to "how can I help" , at all. | [03:30] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I wish you were, sure; still, you are not. | [03:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you have any specific further questions re your draft? do you need anything else to revise it? there isn't all that much until Sunday, yes? | [03:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you know, if I still have to pull out stuff of you like a fucking dentist, I'll get a drill at least. | [03:33] |
| diana_coman: | welcome bvt | [05:25] |
| bvt: | hello, diana_coman! you have very interesting discussion here | [06:28] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: cheers! and feel free to join in. | [06:42] |
| diana_coman: | by way of introduction to readers, bvt is Lord Verschlimmbessert as per http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/?b=bvt&e=#select | [06:46] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: ack, I will list my previous work with their results/failures, do research on open tmsr-tasks and list them along with a summary of my understanding of them, and produce an ordered list of the ones i'm interested in | [08:11] |
| auctionbot: | B#1057 O=100mn LB=100mn E=2019-09-12 20:26:41.479316 (20h26) >>> item as described in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934605 and following. | [08:48] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 04:57:27 mircea_popescu: so : who would like to do a spot of work for hire for me ? the ideea is to write and publish as a vpatch a stan logbot extension which a) processes search, through talking to a [presumably present] mysql server, and spitting out the results (formatted as in http://trilema.com/2019/ | [08:48] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 100mn total bids — | [08:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: good; what's your deadline for that? | [08:54] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: also, don't limit yourself to "open tasks", that's not the point; try to figure out directions/branches/parts rather; once that is clear, tasks can be found easily | [08:55] |
| diana_coman: | I'd even say forget about "open tasks"; your goal is to map (even broadly) what is going on, so that you can then choose what matches you best | [08:56] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: alternatively, if you want me to help you with matching, you'll have to say a lot more about yourself. | [08:57] |
| trinque: | points out that a vpatch-viewer is in ??? hands atm and ironically has no vpatches of itself!x01 | [10:10] |
| trinque: | possibly one can be built nicely atop esthlos' lispy V (which itself lacks a lispy vdiff) | [10:10] |
| trinque: | just two datapoints, not a hard sell. bbl | [10:11] |
| diana_coman: | trinque: not a bad option for the lisp-interested, sure. | [10:16] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: This one seems tricky to estimate because it depends how in depth I need to go, but I believe a good deadline would be Sunday 22/8/19. I hope to get it done much before then, but I am going to CR on Saturday for 1 wk to get my lease settled and during that time I have salt mine obligations. | [11:01] |
| whaack: | my intuition is that I will want to be doing something working with V, perhaps on the direction of creating/maintaing a vpatch viewer as trinque suggests. V seems to be a natural starting point, since it is used in publishing/receiving all code by the republic | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: when it's tricky to estimate, the rule is this: set some not-too-distant deadline and then *publish* whatever you have by that deadline; it might be a draft rather than final, sure; the point is that you have something by a clear date. | [11:51] |
| diana_coman: | so sure, Sun 22/8/19 works. | [11:52] |
| diana_coman: | ahem, Sun 22/9/19. | [11:53] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002189 << yes i understand. project was an example… article seemed a reflection of the way i 'end up thinking/doing' in general, not that i ever defined the layers.. it was more by intuition + logic + even trial and error. Yes i see how it is related to understanding myself and it helps. i'm not sure all of that be fun though… fwiw it certainly was | [12:00] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 02:58:55 diana_coman: in other words, it's a descriptive piece, useful to understand a part of human activities, not a prescriptive thing "you should follow those steps" | [12:00] |
| shrysr: | in the beginning. | [12:00] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002071 << well i'd like to know.. more. Breaking teeth … is not a pleasant thing to look fwd to obv… esp at current stage (despite willingness to embrace pain for improvement). i am curious whether break from salt mine *can* be planned 'eventually', or not. What abt 'actual amt of earning' via eulora, and okay – at some point – assuming there is no | [12:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:56:13 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002065 << shrysr — make sure to get realistic picture of the actual amt of 'earning inside tmsr' happing atm. right nao there's diana_coman , who worx for mp; and BingoBoingo , who worx for piz ( currently powered by savings of asciilifeform and mod6 ) . errybody else toils in the saeculum . | [12:15] |
| shrysr: | more fiat— how do you, well convert bitcoin to fiat till then? Yes, perhaps the point is to Not rely on fiat – but till the day they all fall, bread has to be bought? | [12:15] |
| whaack: | shrysr: well the best way is to network with local cash dealers. albeit this is somewhat hard if you're not in a major city, and still hard then | [12:21] |
| whaack: | iirc even localbitcoins got rid of their interface for doing cash deals | [12:21] |
| shrysr: | hmm. in these cash deals – i presume like currency conversions – you lose a \% ? | [12:23] |
| shrysr: | whaack: what abt translation to tax? say you convert a bunch of bitcoin somehow – are you supposed to sleep with the cash under mattress ? If you put it in the bank – becomes 'taxable income' ? Would the laws be different for each country for this? | [12:30] |
| whaack: | in my experience you gain a \%. people pay a premium for getting more anonymized coins then going through the gatekeepers (i.e. Coinbase) | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | ha! that is interesting. | [12:41] |
| whaack: | shrysr: well yeah… if you put it in the bank then there is a chance your local gov will take its slice of your cheese. no way around this afaik. | [12:42] |
| whaack: | (and even if you keep it in cash overtime your cheese will be taken via inflation) | [12:43] |
| shrysr: | right | [12:43] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack, shrysr : this is where it comes in handy to live in places where can pay for flat, food, etc. with paper money. ( i do not, though would like to ) | [12:44] |
| whaack: | right, this is a major reason why I will be in CR shortly | [12:45] |
| shrysr: | CR is ? | [12:45] |
| whaack: | Costa Rica | [12:45] |
| shrysr: | isnt that supposed to be holiday destination kindda ? pardon my geography etc – i suck at it. | [12:46] |
| whaack: | that is the perspective of many. when I tell people i am moving there "oh CR!! I went there once for x vacation. everyone is so happy and friendly there, and everything is beautiful, but why would u want to live there?!" | [12:48] |
| whaack: | but to be fair, the electricy/water goes MIA every once in a while, and generally it is hard to buy items compared to in the reich | [12:49] |
| shrysr: | ah! well – i dint mean that .. never been/seen, only read in snatches from wherever, and the first connection was 'holiday'. but everything beautiful and friendly – then obvious retort might be why the fuck not i guess… | [12:52] |
| shrysr: | Wikipedia >> "By 2016, 98.1\% of its electricity was generated from green sources[29] particularly hydro, solar, geothermal and biomass." for 4.3++ million population – this i think is quite impressive. afaik – this is rare. | [12:57] |
| whaack: | a few things. (1) wikipedia is not a source, mainly because of the lack-of-identity problem (2) i have my doubts re this. http://trilema.com/2016/heres-where-you-forget-about-wind-power-as-an-alternative-source-of-power/ (there's another one on detailing how solar power doesnt make up its cost, i cant recall the name of article) | [13:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002232 – strictly speaking the "actual amount of earning via eulora" is unlimited; practically speaking the actual amount depends on *you* so nobody can answer such a question for you; the related part you need to answer first is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002064 | [13:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:15:48 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002071 << well i'd like to know.. more. Breaking teeth … is not a pleasant thing to look fwd to obv… esp at current stage (despite willingness to embrace pain for improvement). i am curious whether break from salt mine *can* be planned 'eventually', or not. What abt 'actual amt of earning' via eulora, and okay – at some point – assuming there is no | [13:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:05:10 diana_coman: shrysr: you keep thinking everywhere in terms of "earn from"; are you aware of the implication of this? and for that matter, of the alternative to it? | [13:20] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:56:13 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002065 << shrysr — make sure to get realistic picture of the actual amt of 'earning inside tmsr' happing atm. right nao there's diana_coman , who worx for mp; and BingoBoingo , who worx for piz ( currently powered by savings of asciilifeform and mod6 ) . errybody else toils in the saeculum . | [13:20] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw, "breaking your teeth" was asciilifeform's warning re ditching job now to live from ?? | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002234 – sure, you might need to convert some from time to time, by finding someone who wants to buy bitcoins, as simple as that | [13:23] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:15:49 shrysr: more fiat— how do you, well convert bitcoin to fiat till then? Yes, perhaps the point is to Not rely on fiat – but till the day they all fall, bread has to be bought? | [13:23] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002238 – it depends on where you live exactly; but why would you want to "put them in a bank" ? if you do, obv you'll have to pay a share of it for this dubious pleasure. | [13:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:30:21 shrysr: whaack: what abt translation to tax? say you convert a bunch of bitcoin somehow – are you supposed to sleep with the cash under mattress ? If you put it in the bank – becomes 'taxable income' ? Would the laws be different for each country for this? | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002238 – wikipedia is not a source to rely on for anything. | [13:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:30:21 shrysr: whaack: what abt translation to tax? say you convert a bunch of bitcoin somehow – are you supposed to sleep with the cash under mattress ? If you put it in the bank – becomes 'taxable income' ? Would the laws be different for each country for this? | [13:25] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, link for the above should have been http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002252 | [13:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:57:51 shrysr: Wikipedia >> "By 2016, 98.1\% of its electricity was generated from green sources[29] particularly hydro, solar, geothermal and biomass." for 4.3++ million population – this i think is quite impressive. afaik – this is rare. | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | right, as whaack says right in the next line | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: not to mention that 98.1\% of electricity from x can *also* be achieved by having very little electricity :D | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | learn to read stuff as it is, not as you'd like it to be and be very much aware of what is *not* said although it should be. | [13:29] |
| bvt: | achieving such percentage with hydro plants and ~zero electricity consuming industry is quite easy — i.e. paraguay does exactly that. | [13:33] |
| BingoBoingo: | Much of South America runs on hydro power | [13:35] |
| BingoBoingo: | bvt: Paraguay has the wonderful position of sharing a number of hydrodams 50/50 with Brasil. The end up selling much of their share to Brasil | [13:36] |
| BingoBoingo: | But if it was all on Paraguay to build, probably there'd be far fewer dam shares in Paraguay's portfolio. | [13:37] |
| bvt: | yup, and the same with argentina. the saying goes that the one with argentina was designed in such a way that slums in Stroessner's home town became permanently under water. | [13:39] |
| bvt: | iirc it's 70/30, with 30 to py | [13:39] |
| BingoBoingo: | bvt: Argentina's a bit different in that Argentina imports electricity. | [13:40] |
| BingoBoingo: | bvt: I don't recall the exact split, but its enough that Paraguay gets their electricity and sells the rest. | [13:40] |
| bvt: | well, not like they need a lot of it. soy grows without electricity | [13:42] |
| BingoBoingo: | Paraguay grows a bunch of stuff. It's one of the world's top 3 cannabis producers and exporters. But yes, that grows just fine without electricity too. | [13:43] |
| BingoBoingo: | They also have the Yerba Mate, etc. | [13:43] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002254 << not treating wikipedia as gospel, but as a 'weak' indicator in the least and the comment was more along the lines 'if true', which i should have specified. i know it is a lot more complex when cost is brought into the picture, or even analysing entire carbon cycle of process w.r.t ghg emission i.e whether it *is* 'green' or not. what \% of | [13:43] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:58:19 whaack: a few things. (1) wikipedia is not a source, mainly because of the lack-of-identity problem (2) i have my doubts re this. http://trilema.com/2016/heres-where-you-forget-about-wind-power-as-an-alternative-source-of-power/ (there's another one on detailing how solar power doesnt make up its cost, i cant recall the name of article) | [13:43] |
| shrysr: | 4.3mil actually get power, resources available and what they can generate eg: wind power in a place with no wind – there are obv many holes that can be poked fwiw. I recall prof's story wherein some town in UK was deemed perfect for wind energy – and local residents vetoed saying no ugly windmill in our park or something. | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you do realise that a. industry is generally the main consumer b. "get power" says precisely nothing by itself; how much power do they actually consume is the relevant bit overall. | [13:53] |
| diana_coman: | and given what wonderful cardboard constructions I saw right around the capital of Costa Rica, I doubt there's all that much electricity consumed. | [13:53] |
| BingoBoingo: | Here there's a special rate plan for the under 100kw/h a month crowd | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | not that I have anything against CR as destination otherwise, no. | [13:54] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002064 was meaning to address this. i dont understand the question. 'earn from' work done – implication of that thinking? alternative how? | [14:00] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:05:10 diana_coman: shrysr: you keep thinking everywhere in terms of "earn from"; are you aware of the implication of this? and for that matter, of the alternative to it? | [14:00] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: do you mean – instead of 'earn from' (i.e employee) vs employer ? | [14:03] |
| PeterL: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-12#1002239 << I have never had a bank collect tax when I deposited money, do they do that where you live? | [14:43] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 12:14:44 shrysr: whaack: what abt translation to tax? say you convert a bunch of bitcoin somehow – are you supposed to sleep with the cash under mattress ? If you put it in the bank – becomes 'taxable income' ? Would the laws be different for each country for this? | [14:43] |
| asciilifeform: | PeterL: it aint the bank that collects. bank simply rats out erry deposit to usg . | [14:43] |
| asciilifeform: | ( can't speak for elsewhere in reich, but prolly worx similarly ) | [14:44] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002185 << i live in east usa now, but orig from su, family moved when i was 9yo | [15:16] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 23:32:19 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002179 < may i ask why? where did you grow up? my presumed impression was you are in/from the USA.. | [15:16] |
| shrysr: | PeterL: am no expert but believe asciilifeform is correct… it is tallied by others or atleast looked into when there are large discrepancies. My understanding is – any incoming money has to be 'declared'.. then you go into the littleeee 'loopholes' (for lack of better word) like gifts/insurance etc to bring down tax bracket. unaware as such how it worx in canada. | [15:18] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: sorry > what is 'su' ? | [15:24] |
| shrysr: | soviet union? | [15:24] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002290 – superficially that but it goes deeper; first along the lines of extracting wealth vs creating a source of wealth and second along the lines of aiming to have a master or to be a master; note that *both* options are equally valid and perfectly fine but you have to choose. | [15:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 14:03:08 shrysr: diana_coman: do you mean – instead of 'earn from' (i.e employee) vs employer ? | [15:25] |
| PeterL: | shrysr: SU is soviet union, he left just before it broke up | [15:28] |
| PeterL: | asciilifeform: do I remember right that you came from Crimea? In 2014 I had a co-worker who was from Crimea, he said all his family members were very happy Putin "invaded" | [15:29] |
| asciilifeform: | PeterL: odessa. ( still under ukrs ) | [15:30] |
| asciilifeform: | mother — from crimea | [15:30] |
| diana_coman: | hello PeterL, what brings you here? | [15:30] |
| PeterL: | I have been reading the logs, seems like interesting conversation | [15:30] |
| diana_coman: | PeterL: sure, but if it's just for conversation you can keep reading; there are a few more lurkers around | [15:31] |
| diana_coman: | see the topic, it starts with "work". | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: seems like PeterL is back in the saddle as of late. | [15:31] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 11:59:16 PeterL: asciilifeform: I posted some sigs of ffa vpatches on my blog: http://peterl.xyz/2019/09/signatures-for-ffa/ | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | PeterL: btw do post your nitpicks/notes re ^ | [15:32] |
| PeterL: | I had put some comments on your pages as I was reading | [15:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: presumably he can talk for himself though? and ask for the help he needs re work, if he's here? | [15:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: fair'nuff | [15:33] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ideally – creating source + being master. well, i am aware that theoretically, and to some practical extent that it is a lot pain. Thought atm is that – need master to teach so that can become master 'later'…. also time to understand this properly. Perhaps I am not totally clear about the distinction between extracting wealth and creating wealth in terms of real life / business. Planting | [15:42] |
| shrysr: | tree is creating wealth, and chopping it down is extracting perhaps in simplistic sense? I'm not exactly averse to extracting… but think that power lies in creating (if successful). Thinking : growth shd lead to becoming master and creating wealth, no matter where it starts ? | [15:42] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: i presume if 'money' is the only goal – nothing substantial can be attained from not being master – and this can be done via creating / extracting. | [15:45] |
| shrysr: | from the point of view of time + energy – aiming to have a master is conducive to freedom to look at 'other things' i guess. | [16:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: growth depends on the person too, it's not like anyone can grow into anything at all. | [16:33] |
| diana_coman: | so in this sense, you don't have all possible choices, nobody does | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | hmm.. i was gonna ask abt this in the morning and got side tracked, w.r.t to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002084 | [16:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:21:31 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002075 – ?? the whole point is to become the best he can be, not to become fucking me or bingo or someone else, ffs. | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so ask. | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002317 – more like making an orchard vs foraging the land for fruit to sell (or even just planting trees) | [16:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 15:42:20 shrysr: tree is creating wealth, and chopping it down is extracting perhaps in simplistic sense? I'm not exactly averse to extracting… but think that power lies in creating (if successful). Thinking : growth shd lead to becoming master and creating wealth, no matter where it starts ? | [16:50] |
| shrysr: | well ask as in > related to what you just said re all possible choices. I used to think — i can 'learn' anything..maybe even to the point of getting 'good' (esp with decent teacher)… but later realised there is a difference between good and becoming 'great' or awesome or whatever, and that cannot happen in all that you pick up. But how do you know for sure? I say – i wanna be master. maybe achieve it – | [16:51] |
| shrysr: | to some degree of success and even sustain that out of sheer will or desire, but what if then i realise I am suited to be under a master? Or what if I choose to master — Fail. and then switch to being under a master for subsistence? From what i gather – most businesses fail.. we just don't hear abt em? | [16:51] |
| shrysr: | the original question was…. best i can be > does it also translate to being born with brain quantity X and that you cannot … well.. become more? become other? | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | most startups fail, certainly; it's not a choice in the sense that you know already the outcome | [16:54] |
| shrysr: | well not only brain quantity X… whatever 'X' | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the best *version of yourself*, that's the "best you can be"; it's not that much about quantity of something but rather about… substance in the sense of what you are made (as in from nature if you want) to be, if that makes sense to you. | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, the advantage of striving to fulfill exactly what you are made for is that you'll be better at that than at anything else; but *all* of this is really by comparison to yourself (potential versions, let's say), not to someone else. | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | this is why I was saying that it's not about becoming me or someone else – I'll never try to make someone else some version of me because they will be way better as their true selves | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | it is true however that it's not all that easy or clear or straightforward to figure out what one really is. | [17:00] |
| shrysr: | guess was hoping massa had working crystal ball..seeing stone to lend. lol. | [17:02] |
| diana_coman: | re being a master though, I'd say it's one of those things – when/if you are one, you'll know; before that you can of course bang your head on "I want to be one" and shout loudly as to why it doesn't work, plenty do precisely that. | [17:03] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: lol; the more you understand, the better you see, that's about as much as can be said about it; everyone has "crystal ball" – just some got to clear it more and some got to make it even foggier than the thikest fog. | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: my pointing out to you the "make money from" was a bit of mirror-holding and pointing out what you didn't seem to have noticed. | [17:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re eulora and making money from it: on one hand there is the game itself in which you are effectively making money to the extent that you understand the game better than the other players | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | btw, atm eulora is basically waiting for a whole load of stuff to be done before things really get moving again. | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: at any rate, in game as a character, you are competing at all times with the other players | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that however is just one approach (and not that easy either) | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | the open options in middle/long term are building up useful things for the player base | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes has built for example the auction bot precisely for and from eulora needs; that it found afterwards further use is not unusual,either. | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the big current opening and the one that I thought might be interesting to you is re graphics: not necessarily making the art yourself but rather building up and running the needed infrastructure for the art market | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | yes, it's not something that earns you bread *today*, sure. | [17:15] |
| shrysr: | well tbh, i've thought of it before, but not while writing the post. I believe I had concluded that 'moving fwd' wd just.. clarify master/under-a-master and that there are many presssing issues to solve first. I viewed it anyway as a process of 'becoming'. A few years ago – i wd have probably said Master hands down. Source v/s extraction i think is still.. well easier to figure and perhaps could possible | [17:19] |
| shrysr: | even co-exist? As i've grown i've seen …. being master also means….well sacrifices of as minimum energy+time.. no time to stand and watch and just 'feel'…. need to take far more 'ugly' decisions… you run the business, but are unlikely to become an expert, and may have to pretend being so. i guess being master has become less appealing over time, but there is a yearning to be free of cruel masters | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: for that matter, the stock warrants are something you need to understand in order to understand a big part of how money-from-eulora (other than directly as char in the game) tends to work | [17:19] |
| shrysr: | as well, and not even attempting to become master seems … like giving something up, or taking the easier path. | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you are confusing master with …employers | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: perhaps it's clearer put whether you can stand to be fully free or not; links back to the causes and purposes, remember? | [17:21] |
| shrysr: | remember but not really linking. Why is a master different from an employer? You have to essentially follow commands given? | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | eh, that's the superficial, not the essential, lol | [17:26] |
| diana_coman: | for one thing, the commitment on both sides is way bigger; for the other, you can't really have two masters at the same time, ever (if you "do" then it's more likely you are just working 2 jobs) | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | to an employer you obey within a single context | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | and even there, well.."obey" ; as in you sort of maybe do what they asked IF you think it's ok | [17:29] |
| shrysr: | okay ! Ha. So you mean master as in… what you are to me. and employer is the… well, not master…. not even close. | [17:29] |
| shrysr: | ok | [17:29] |
| shrysr: | right. | [17:30] |
| shrysr: | ok | [17:30] |
| shrysr: | i see. | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | well, I suppose you are more my knight rather than my slave | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | as in feudal relationships if you want | [17:30] |
| shrysr: | lol thanks | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what? lol | [17:30] |
| shrysr: | well lol i'll take knight over slave any day… i guess. | [17:31] |
| shrysr: | if i could. | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | dunno, some prefer to be slaves, you know? | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | as you said earlier: it frees up some resources | [17:31] |
| shrysr: | has to bbl or will get fucked.x01 | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: are you even familiar with what the feudal code was about? | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | ahaha | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | go then | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Sep-2019#1002314 – apparently he can't though. | [17:37] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-12 15:32:40 diana_coman: asciilifeform: presumably he can talk for himself though? and ask for the help he needs re work, if he's here? | [17:37] |
| lobbes: | he's not even in here anymore I see | [17:42] |
| lobbes: | incidentally, it is been harder to keep up with #o logs lately than #t logs ! | [17:43] |
| diana_coman: | lobbes: metoo! | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [17:44] |
#ossasepia Logs for 11 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | welcome spyked ! | [08:43] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001900 – first finish what you have for this Sunday, will you? | [08:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 19:27:59 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-08#1001579 << well ASD was ..well, easy to do, with sculptor, the software i used. but i'm not sure i have a good enough idea of what computer graphics would entail. How wd I get a .. well a 'quick feel' ? Blender tutorial ? fwiw: the 3D modeling i did were not monsters or characters – but 'pumps' … not even the surfacing type stuff that you do with cars. | [08:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-08 08:46:18 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001553 – aha, arbitrary shape deformation is one tool for "sculpting" 3D shapes (hence stuff like characters or monsters in a game for instance), indeed; the question for you here is whether this is something that really speaks to you (because if it is and you are willing to work it properly, there's a good opportunity with eulora right there) | [08:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 22:45:12 shrysr: the closest i guess i came to graphics was with my masters thesis… using a software called sculptor – they used something called arbitrary shape deformation (ASD) and NURBS to deform geometries i.e meshes and create quick variations of geometry instead of completely remeshing for each change. i used to find meshing very challenging…kindda hated that part of the whole process, then slowly became | [08:44] |
| auctionbot: | B#1057 O=100mn LB=100mn E=2019-09-12 20:26:41.479316 (44h26) >>> item as described in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934605 and following. | [08:48] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 04:57:27 mircea_popescu: so : who would like to do a spot of work for hire for me ? the ideea is to write and publish as a vpatch a stan logbot extension which a) processes search, through talking to a [presumably present] mysql server, and spitting out the results (formatted as in http://trilema.com/2019/ | [08:48] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 100mn total bids — | [08:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001904 – the question with India is if you are yet enough of yourself to go back and impose your own terms rather than having the local terms imposed on you; familiarity cuts 2 ways in this sort of thing and there IS a cost to it too. | [08:53] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:47:12 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001842 << TBH : i do not care much abt where i live…. india is comfortable being home fwiw. All this.. shift to canada.. etc etc has been… towards a 'career' … 'cool ppl' etc. That career itself is 'changing' now. For eg: If i had decided in india – fuck mech engg – whether IT/data-hag/banking whateva – i dont think i wd have bothered abt the west. | [08:53] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 12:34:12 diana_coman: but more importantly and now that you saw enough (?) of both: where do you actually want to live? | [08:53] |
| diana_coman: | and now I remember how 25yo me shocked some Swiss interviewers: "why Switzerland? *shrug* For me the world has only 2 countries: Romania aka home and…the rest of the world" | [08:54] |
| diana_coman: | meanwhile the world actually got smaller, if anything; and there is only "home" aka wherever I am. | [08:57] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001906 – you may care only about work but note that the rest will still care about you and with a big, sharp stick at that; you already got that 8-guys beating once *precisely for this*, do you realise? | [08:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:47:14 shrysr: i'm saying that — i just care abt work. and becoming the best i can and doing great work…(well eventually atleast), and Its FAR more enjoyable working with ppl who have brains. | [08:59] |
| diana_coman: | it's true that canadians will not bother to beat you for it but that makes it only more difficult for you to even *notice it*; it most certainly doesn't make it go away. | [09:01] |
| diana_coman: | the above being said, there's nothing wrong with working your way towards it all, sure. | [09:07] |
| spyked: | ty diana_coman! ftr, I'm finding the discussions here very instructive, so I've decided to finally join | [09:08] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001907 – seriously. | [09:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:55:40 shrysr: http://trilema.com/2017/the-universal-plan-for-wealth/#selection-171.0-171.114 << seriously ??!!! ????????? | [09:08] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001909 – heh, cheers! | [09:09] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 22:09:50 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001894 << this is beautifully stated btw :D | [09:09] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 19:38:19 diana_coman: you *need to* feel it up/play with it to actually master it, no matter what "it" is. | [09:09] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001911 – quite. | [09:09] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 22:09:58 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001900 << exactly. think about it: do you master a language *before* speaking your first word? master walking *before* even taking a first step? "master eating" before taking first bite? While comedic to a point, this is very serious. In the latter example you'd starve to death on a very real level. | [09:09] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 19:59:50 shrysr: perhaps some elements of 'not smart..'. i guess more related to 'mastery' of the whole thing *before* playing, rather than playing repeatedly to gain mastery… and actually playing with… no 'restriction'. its not present everywhere as far as i can see… but its obviously there where it shdnt be. | [09:09] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1001932 – oh, hey, great to hear it! and feel free to ask /comment. | [09:17] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 09:08:37 spyked: ty diana_coman! ftr, I'm finding the discussions here very instructive, so I've decided to finally join | [09:17] |
| diana_coman: | well done | [12:13] |
| diana_coman: | for readers and everyone else, whaack followed #trilema thread http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-11#1935546 | [12:17] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 11:53:26 whaack: greetings. following the advice of the lords http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914428 and http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-05-17#1914460 i am getting out of the reich and moving back to CR. I'm going there this weekend for a week to secure a lease, then moving there permanently mid October. This time I'm saying my goodbyes to the meatwot and have secured remote employment so I will not have to set foot in the US aga | [12:17] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-05-17 19:17:34 trinque: whaack: more important than where you haul your ass is what you're going to do when you get there. | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what's your name? | [12:17] |
| whaack: | Will Haack | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | nice; way better than reading it as "whaaaaack" in my head all the time, lol | [12:18] |
| whaack: | aha it is the default for a lot of usernames generated fro first/last names. and of course it stuck. the last name is pronounced Hawk | [12:19] |
| whaack: | making a joke about the name "will hack" has served as the icebreaker for 50\% of my job interviews | [12:20] |
| whaack: | assumes the "how may i help, starting today" is impliedx01 | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | heh; so what sort of jobs were those you did? | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: *nothing* is implied, no; be explicit for your own good, because if the other party is left to "imply", you never know just *what* they might decide it was really. | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: also, you still got that wrong, lol. | [12:23] |
| whaack: | lol. they were various software development internships at reich corps, as well as working in the startup circus | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | no need to be shy though, consider all ice broken (and all grizzly bears hungry). | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ok, but what did you get to do exactly? | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ha, "today" finally came? :D | [12:28] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: lol ..well i tried to clean it up a little so i wdnt get 'extra' sharp stick :P | [12:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, avoiding the extra sharp stick by running the very real possibility of a super-sharp-stick for silently not quite keeping your word *to the letter* is not such a great approach though, is it? | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | understand that your word will forever matter only to the extent that one can rely on what you say; as in fully rely, *every* time. | [12:33] |
| shrysr: | okay. | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: does the above fully get to you? | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr! | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | yes it does… its kindda why i prefer silence to opening my mouth in general… but here it also means | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | sticking to what i say | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | i will do. | [12:37] |
| diana_coman: | good. | [12:37] |
| diana_coman: | as to preferences of silence, ahem, get better preferences, you know? lolz | [12:37] |
| diana_coman: | how's that erp thing going meanwhile anyway? | [12:37] |
| shrysr: | they seem to have forgotten me for now… w.r.t pressure… but since i've been offered 'help', i need to keep up my word there. its… going on i guess. I've still spent more time away from it than i shd i guess… | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | aha; put in some work there too so you don't end up in last-minute pressure thing again. | [12:40] |
| whaack: | Some examples: (1) For an advertising company I made a graphic tool where they could create an arbitrarily shaped polygon on a world map. Then I would query their db of user models that contained most recent lat/lng data and it would filter out users outside of the polygon. (2) For an internship at Goolag I made a dashboard in javascript that was an interface ontop of SQL that let management do queries for how many users wer | [12:43] |
| whaack: | e using Docs between X and Y dates on devices A B C, etc. (3) For a real estate startup I made this platform in python/django where there were 3 different types of users – landlords, tenants, and service-workers landlords could create models in the db that represented their leases that they could then attach tenant users to. tenants could see details regarding their lease and submit tickets for "work-requests" which could be | [12:43] |
| whaack: | assigned to service-workers etc. | [12:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes.. ima not let that happen. will try. | [12:46] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what did you use for that graphic tool? | [12:47] |
| whaack: | for the location filter iirc i used mapbox | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: what is mapbox? and for the actual graph, what was it, browser stuff or what? | [12:55] |
| whaack: | mapbox is an api that gives you a world map similar to google maps. it had the ability to click points on the map and then get the lat/lngs of all the clicked points. yes it was in an in browser tool | [13:01] |
| whaack: | so to clarify, because upon rereading i think my initial example overclaims, i setup and tweaked the knobs on an existing api for their use. as for the code that obtained the users inside the polygon, i looked up a solution to the convex hull problem and used that | [13:10] |
| whaack: | and i remember i made it go a little faster by first filtering out users who were not inside the "bounding box" of the polygon – i.e. not within the minx, maxx, miny, maxy rectangle of the polygon | [13:11] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ah, I get some idea of the thing now, yes; and what are you meant to do in this job you have lined up now? | [13:12] |
| whaack: | i got brought on to finish up some work with an existing ipad app that is used in speech therapy sessions for children who cannot pronounce the letter r | [13:13] |
| diana_coman: | ipad app eurgh | [13:13] |
| whaack: | yeah lol | [13:13] |
| whaack: | i took what i could find | [13:13] |
| whaack: | for the job i have one developer who i assign tasks to. my work involves mostly going through an existing codebase and finding and fixing bugs. | [13:15] |
| diana_coman: | ahahah; by "fixing" you mean assigning them to the dev or what? | [13:15] |
| whaack: | no, i do it myself mostly. the dev works very part time and i just make well defined tickets of usually pretty easy tasks for him to do | [13:16] |
| whaack: | there are also a few features they want to tack on, and i mostly give him those | [13:17] |
| whaack: | whaack: *nothing* is implied, no; be explicit for your own good, because if the other party is left to "imply", you never know just *what* they might decide it was really. << ack. | [13:20] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1001929 << i have to admit this is true … even considering the whole story of that incident, and also in general at mines. | [13:23] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 08:43:49 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001906 – you may care only about work but note that the rest will still care about you and with a big, sharp stick at that; you already got that 8-guys beating once *precisely for this*, do you realise? | [13:23] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:47:14 shrysr: i'm saying that — i just care abt work. and becoming the best i can and doing great work…(well eventually atleast), and Its FAR more enjoyable working with ppl who have brains. | [13:23] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: maybe make a summary with any tmsr-related things that you did so far and otherwise any tmsr parts/items you find interesting | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: how does that sound? | [13:29] |
| whaack: | that sounds like a good plan. brb | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: good then; let me know what's your deadline for it. | [13:30] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1001924 no atm. yes, there is definitely a cost. w.r.t time and energy – i believe canada wd take significantly less of it in general. Also – a minimal subsistence is sort of easier here. For eg: a pipe-fitter or common welder in India is likely to live in a shack whereas here – they do not. plus – fwiw : you get some sort of pension here (eventually), | [13:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 08:37:50 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001904 – the question with India is if you are yet enough of yourself to go back and impose your own terms rather than having the local terms imposed on you; familiarity cuts 2 ways in this sort of thing and there IS a cost to it too. | [13:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:47:12 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001842 << TBH : i do not care much abt where i live…. india is comfortable being home fwiw. All this.. shift to canada.. etc etc has been… towards a 'career' … 'cool ppl' etc. That career itself is 'changing' now. For eg: If i had decided in india – fuck mech engg – whether IT/data-hag/banking whateva – i dont think i wd have bothered abt the west. | [13:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 12:34:12 diana_coman: but more importantly and now that you saw enough (?) of both: where do you actually want to live? | [13:44] |
| shrysr: | quite enough to survive, afaik in india that is applicable only in government jobs, and is grossly insufficient in any case. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: by the time you are old enough for that pension, it won't probably exist anymore/come to anything; don't count on a pension, no. | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | will bblx01 | [13:45] |
| shrysr: | no, i've never really counted on it, as in the idea that i'd make enough money to not bother. fwiw, i presume a portion of tax paid goes to that. well discounting even more so since reading the trilema piece yest on the universal plan of wealth. From that article's perspective – india would work, and i shdnt be here? if that is assumed to be true, without any comprehension atm ofc, then wtf am i doing | [14:11] |
| shrysr: | here? I guess i was first inclined to think i need to get out of current misery, go back and then figure out, but this answers my question, 'home' or not. | [14:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-05-17 19:17:34 trinque: whaack: more important than where you haul your ass is what you're going to do when you get there. | [14:11] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001914 appreciate the kind words..fwiw quite likely my retard-level is off the charts …. but ima try *do* more and help you win your bet ;). | [15:23] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 21:54:40 lobbes: shrysr: really, just jump into that code and start chewing. Compared to your knowledge level now, I was an utter retard when I started my tmsr journey (arguably still am), yet somehow I made it into the lordship by the simple act of *doing things*. Hell, even now I bet you could blow me out of the water if you simply started eating | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002001 – note that I said *are* not have! Every.Word.Counts. And the cost I was talking about was that of *familiarity*, not the obvious cost of move+having to deal with disorganised-everything (I get a feeling that Romania is closer to India than anything else; just less crowded maybe). | [15:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 13:44:02 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1001924 no atm. yes, there is definitely a cost. w.r.t time and energy – i believe canada wd take significantly less of it in general. Also – a minimal subsistence is sort of easier here. For eg: a pipe-fitter or common welder in India is likely to live in a shack whereas here – they do not. plus – fwiw : you get some sort of pension here (eventually), | [15:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 08:37:50 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001904 – the question with India is if you are yet enough of yourself to go back and impose your own terms rather than having the local terms imposed on you; familiarity cuts 2 ways in this sort of thing and there IS a cost to it too. | [15:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 20:47:12 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001842 << TBH : i do not care much abt where i live…. india is comfortable being home fwiw. All this.. shift to canada.. etc etc has been… towards a 'career' … 'cool ppl' etc. That career itself is 'changing' now. For eg: If i had decided in india – fuck mech engg – whether IT/data-hag/banking whateva – i dont think i wd have bothered abt the west. | [15:44] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 12:34:12 diana_coman: but more importantly and now that you saw enough (?) of both: where do you actually want to live? | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the way to evaluate "minimal subsistence" is by looking at *actual* living cost; not by looking at what lowest-paid employee gets. | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002008 – yes, you are anyway paying *now* for the pension that you'll never really get meaningfully. | [15:49] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 14:11:30 shrysr: no, i've never really counted on it, as in the idea that i'd make enough money to not bother. fwiw, i presume a portion of tax paid goes to that. well discounting even more so since reading the trilema piece yest on the universal plan of wealth. From that article's perspective – india would work, and i shdnt be here? if that is assumed to be true, without any comprehension atm ofc, then wtf am i doing | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002009 – as I said, you DO need a plan http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001848 | [15:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 14:11:33 shrysr: here? I guess i was first inclined to think i need to get out of current misery, go back and then figure out, but this answers my question, 'home' or not. | [15:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 13:19:44 diana_coman: eh, for one thing you won't be able to "optimally" anything upfront like that; you DO need a plan and a thorough one, sure, but you'll actually find exactly what the problems are only once you are on the ground. | [15:50] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-05-17 19:17:34 trinque: whaack: more important than where you haul your ass is what you're going to do when you get there. | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I suppose canada takes less effort atm simply because you are there; and you are in a more fortunate position than whaack since you have a different citizenship | [16:09] |
| shrysr: | sorta…. i kindda meant – there are 'systems' or some frameworks to support some portion of the basics? for eg i attended these sessions about 'self-employment' that the immigration council organise when jobless in toronto… i thought it was useful. they actually offer 'consultants' or some level of help to help navigate the regulations…. in india – i guess at some point it wd involve bribing somebody, | [16:14] |
| shrysr: | which depending on the bribe amount, is less work. not that i have exp starting a business anywhere. | [16:14] |
| diana_coman: | anyway and to round it up: there is no place that "would work" because it can't work by itself, no; the crucial bit is precisely *you* and specifically what you do; *you* can "make it work", not the place itself. | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | you have however the *choice of place* | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | in other words, that choice = choice of set of problems to deal with | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes, there are systems and frameworks that "support" *what they want you to do*; and if you haven't yet found out directly, you'll find quickly that ~same ones *also* stay in the way of anything you would actually want to do outside of them. | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | re starting a business, mhm, iirc you..sold some kilos, lolz. | [16:20] |
| shrysr: | i guess I do not doubt that wd be the case re: systems. there is no place that wd work then yes. | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | by itself, it simply can't be, no. | [16:21] |
| diana_coman: | there is this saying around here: it works, if you work it. | [16:22] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the moment you need to hire someone just to "navigate the regulations" , you can be sure that they pretty much own you. | [16:24] |
| shrysr: | haha…lol. I have also 'participated' in a BPO my friend ran.. i just kindda helped, owned nothing. the thrill was in sourcing…good quality stuff. the selling kindda sucked… but luckily I did not hav to do too much of that myself. I shd say that it was mostly 'team effort' in the sense -unlikely i cd have done it alone being an 'outsider'. | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | so in that case you are probably better off just being honest about it, find someone who agrees to actually own you and be done with it, at least that person will then *also* be committed to get the best out of you. | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: team effort, sure; the important part is quality of the team and if it's *your* team or not | [16:27] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002038 was in continuation to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002036 | [16:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:26:11 diana_coman: so in that case you are probably better off just being honest about it, find someone who agrees to actually own you and be done with it, at least that person will then *also* be committed to get the best out of you. | [16:29] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:24:11 diana_coman: shrysr: the moment you need to hire someone just to "navigate the regulations" , you can be sure that they pretty much own you. | [16:29] |
| shrysr: | *your* team as in? | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | as in: are you the leader that they follow or not. | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | the core of the difference between the two places is anyway one of systems vs relationships | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | correct. | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | simplified, of course (because in practice it's a combination of both anyway, in both places) | [16:35] |
| shrysr: | and no -lol, they definitely not *my* team in that instance… more like the few who humored my drive to get more + cheap + no compromise on quality i guess… favorable results for all. they were a lot more 'battle hardened' than me…. i guess i was 'smart' in a different way perhaps and thats why it worked. i.e not the junkie who flunked classes. | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: being one single instance, it's hard to have been your team, yes; the obs was more general, not for that particular instance, no. | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | other than that, yes, be smarter than them, obviously. | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [16:45] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 3d 22h 5m | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: for that matter I suppose in India you have the advantage of being perceived by default as smarter because you studied+worked abroad; conversely and from what you say, you have this in reverse, as a disadvantage in canada | [16:48] |
| diana_coman: | but again, what matters is what you do, in either case. | [16:49] |
| shrysr: | fwiw: i did kindda find a guy towards the end in toronto. he runs a company..has a PhD.. iirc building a software that forms a bridge to different kinds of db's. meet him at a meetup and he was a speaker. after intro and sob story of CFD – i told him – i am trying to break into ds, and rather than build a stupid portfolio – lemme do stuff for you and later you hire me if you like. he was quite willing… | [16:53] |
| shrysr: | down the line he had plans to hire for 'sales help' very similar to technical sales, but in 'AI'… https://www.linkedin.com/in/fjeanson/ that iirc was the time i got current offer. | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: doesn't look like anything special though; sure, send your data to us, not to google | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | they want a bit of the same pie though | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | in fairness, I suppose you'd probably have gotten sucked in for longer. | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: 4.3 in your draft doesn't parse, I don't know what you are trying to say there. | [16:59] |
| shrysr: | re 'smarter' – i dont think so…. its pretty mixed in any case in india. some have disdain for foreign education.. others dont. I believe it made no difference at all in terms of getting interview opportunities – but obv made difference once inside in terms of imo common-sense dealing and not being … well afraid to ask questions.. as others always appeared to be. I guess less to do with eduation | [16:59] |
| shrysr: | overall, perhaps more related to communication being clear. I'm not sure what value any education has in canada, the feeling is that they dont give a shit …. if anything, locally 'known' college helps more than saying top 100 university… which i've tried. | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | 6.1 is endearing | [17:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you keep thinking everywhere in terms of "earn from"; are you aware of the implication of this? and for that matter, of the alternative to it? | [17:05] |
| shrysr: | there were also many who have said – after first job in canada (which is damningly tough usually) – 2nd or subsequent shifts are *much* easier… idk yet. w.r.t apps i havent truly put my back into it.. – there was always a confusion as to… am i mech engg? ds? da? apply everywhere? ditch mech engg? its only recently i realised …. i just dont see the point of mech engg anymore. i wanted combustion, i | [17:05] |
| shrysr: | wanted design… i wanted R&D… none of it abundantly avialable. i *am* in a combustion equipment mftr company! I havent seen fire in like… 8 months!! *came here* to play with fire. | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | well, all ..sorts of fire to play with. | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | 3.1 medical+dental -> aren't those waaaay cheaper in india when you pay for them yourself aka "private"? | [17:09] |
| shrysr: | re 4.3 : basically what i meant abt CFD/mech engg and not being able to learn shit on a computer that translates usefully… like i cant learn much abt compressors without being in a company that makes them… say if thats all there is in canada – i am classified 'newbie/unfit' irrespective of theoretical knowledge, and i cant make up deficit. | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002065 << shrysr — make sure to get realistic picture of the actual amt of 'earning inside tmsr' happing atm. right nao there's diana_coman , who worx for mp; and BingoBoingo , who worx for piz ( currently powered by savings of asciilifeform and mod6 ) . errybody else toils in the saeculum . | [17:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 16:49:33 diana_coman: shrysr: you keep thinking everywhere in terms of "earn from"; are you aware of the implication of this? and for that matter, of the alternative to it? | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: if your primary interest is 'quit day job' you will break teeth very, very painfully. we had a coupla folx like that. | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: lmao; and MP? and hanbot and nicoleci? | [17:14] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i suppose you can count'em, but shrysr prolly already familiar. | [17:15] |
| asciilifeform: | was speaking of folx that shrysr has a shot at 'becoming' , strictly . | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: well, either you make a realistic picture or you "already familiar" assumption; anyway and ftr, I don't suggest to anyone to just "jump", no. | [17:17] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: familiar as in i know they exist…thats really abt it. MP a little more via his blog post, nicoleci – only recently. I dint know hanbot human or bot | [17:17] |
| shrysr: | blog* not blog post | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | but whether break teeth or not, it largely depends on a. person b. situation | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | can't ignore it, sure, but just blanket-assume it either | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | meant: can't ignore it, sure, but can't just blanket-assume it either | [17:18] |
| shrysr: | what exactly meant by break teeth btw.. lol. fwiw dentists fucking thieves here. But damm, they have these gels and make sure you dont feel shit. India : mostly Full ON pain… no gel nothing. DENTISTS are what scare me the most btw. i am usually sweating rivers on their chair before they touch me. re: cheaper private in india : not really no. really depends on the job they doing i guess… health industry | [17:20] |
| shrysr: | big time scam. Smart ppl take up insurance v young and max possible… | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002075 – ?? the whole point is to become the best he can be, not to become fucking me or bingo or someone else, ffs. | [17:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:17:02 asciilifeform: was speaking of folx that shrysr has a shot at 'becoming' , strictly . | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: he means that it won't work and you'll end up in bigger trouble. | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, weird; for one thing: yes, I know full on pain dentists from childhood mostly but uhm, so…what? pain, yes. | [17:23] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: funnily enuff i have a 'full pain dentist' right here in usa. | [17:23] |
| asciilifeform: | it dun bother me so much, i think of it as practice run for when in gestapo chair. | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | for the other thing you choose dentist just like you choose anything else, so pay and ask for what you want, what. | [17:25] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do they still have those old chairs and clunky-drills that vibrate your brains out too? | [17:26] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if he's stuck w/ 'insurances' prolly has pretty tight choose. but i'ma let him answer. | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | to get shrysr properly sweating at least | [17:27] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: they do ! | [17:27] |
| shrysr: | well pain is fine. have fair share of scars… not to mention tendency to form kidney stones which i am told ranks *most painful*. but dentists!!!!!! cmon. the drill… the fucking smell of bone or whatever…its fucking insane. LOL we have a 'family dentist' who takes care of of us back home… she does what She wants. there's no 'telling em', like here… | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | ahaha, so shrysr should visit asciilifeform for next dentist-appointment | [17:27] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: usa dentists are 1 or 2 notches above 'door with rope' | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: lol, so… western; Western even. | [17:28] |
| asciilifeform: | lolyes | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: uhm, so …why didn't you become a dentist? do anything you want with a drill sounds not-bad | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | now that would be something: literally getting out the daily drill! | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, back to the draft, shrysr, you should read http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-have-fun-as-an-intelligent-person/ | [17:33] |
| shrysr: | well – if i have a time machine… wd probably just join a bank… accountant or somethin. say FUCK science and DEF fuck engineering…. not even bother w/comp sci. dentist/doc highly lucrative true. 0 interest really even if so…i may like eat-your-brains capability… but i dislike causing pain… well physical pain for sure. | [17:34] |
| shrysr: | my dad explicitly advised… get into accounting in fact. i said WTF adding numbers in different ways??? sounds like a dumbass job. he still laughs abt it when i curse engg. | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ahahaha, well, you are/were *both* right :D | [17:36] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ok reading piece on intelligent person. i did read btw the post on budget yesterday…. | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: kind of curious whether/to what extent it makes sense to you. | [17:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Sep-2019#1002077 – hanbot is human, writes at thewhet.net; there's a list of blogs with description even (if you hover) on younghands.club, ahem. | [18:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 17:17:08 shrysr: asciilifeform: familiar as in i know they exist…thats really abt it. MP a little more via his blog post, nicoleci – only recently. I dint know hanbot human or bot | [18:39] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: hmm. ok -i know nothing abt gambling. card games.. casinos. never really been (vaguely recall 1 visit)… so i dont get those bits. However – i completely agree that only a well designed system *will* be used and can sustain – esp when introduced new / replacing. Otherwise the system just dies/ wont be used even after initial interest. I followed more or less the same approach as i see in the | [19:10] |
| shrysr: | article for my first and kindda fav project (in terms of impact)… first time i learnt python on my own and did initial research against express wishes of mgmt – who finally caved in when i blurted the 'IT guy XX will take the rest of his life.. gimme 1 month, and will do alongside main job'. http://s.ragavan.co/projects/cfx-job-scheduler/ … the code is shit…. approach is simplicity itself – some | [19:10] |
| shrysr: | stacked chairs…crude .. some holes…some dependent on user permissions in windows by admin. even this was deemed 'wont work'… worked for 3+ years. 1 year in my absence after i left mine… which is when they finally bought a fucking computing cluster for simulations iirc. the point is – the whole project and thought process — very aligned to the layers described. | [19:10] |
| shrysr: | essentially… i made it SO easy to use… that they cdnt resist. lol. fwiw: it was a crude system. Some lucky factors too. for eg: the same machines used for daily computing, meshing, CAD etc were simultaneously running simulations… Xeon E5 2643 iirc.. that itself iirc was my suggestion to purchase. no choice w.r.t separate cluster. but that system literally 'transformed team image'… lol. before that | [19:25] |
| shrysr: | i was trying to build GUI control… using python + tkinter. but i cant rem where I got stuck. I think w.r.t threading or launching prog in bg without freezing GUI… anyway – GUI was 'luxury' there… or added complication anyway. | [19:25] |
| shrysr: | poor man's CFD cluster i guess. | [19:28] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: so my previous work is a just few qntra articles http://qntra.net/author/whaack/ . I started to do research on how many coins are in the segwit ecosystem but did not finish. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741793 Stan mentioned from that thread that a sha256 in CL was needed, perhaps that is still an open task? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-23#1742513 | [21:09] |
| shrysr: | whaack + Will Haack is the coolest nick + name evaaaaa….. right next to BingoBoingo .. which i still chant now n then. | [21:21] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001817 << but github does support signing? https://help.github.com/en/articles/signing-commits | [22:02] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 07:11:05 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001798 – note also that code is effectively created as useful item (and as opposed to random text/found on github) *by the signers* | [22:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 15:29:32 asciilifeform: (i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the background hum of the universe, coad found on shithub, etc. someone could read it still and sign it, but few will find any desire to bother ) | [22:02] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: signing where some remote box, belonging to enemies, purports to verify and tells you the answer via www , aint signing at all, do you understand why ? | [22:04] |
| shrysr: | because there is no WoT ? | [22:05] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: because they can give you whatever answer they feel like. | [22:05] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: as for shithub, do you understand that when you put material there, yer working for microshit for free ? | [22:07] |
| shrysr: | re shithub yes. | [22:08] |
| whaack: | my recent job has me working with shithub. i uploaded code that i never signed that has a green sticker "verified" by me | [22:08] |
| shrysr: | really! wtf | [22:08] |
| asciilifeform: | whaack: lotsa salt mines in usa use shithub internally, they gave up on maintaining own repo (why — ask'em, not me) | [22:08] |
| asciilifeform: | every 1nce in a while these get marked 'public' through some bitflip and then lulz | [22:09] |
| shrysr: | wait – they host on 'private' repos? does that mean MS has access to all their code ? | [22:10] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: 'private'. and noshit has access. | [22:10] |
| shrysr: | thats quite…. strange. i mean – if bread and butter is that code – why host on github at all..private or not? i mean even with what little i know – i wdnt do that. | [22:11] |
| asciilifeform: | recently ms bought shithub so to bolster its claim to 'support opensores'. dun help'em. | [22:11] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: i can't say why they do it. there's this religious belief that 'they wouldn't peek', same people also think that google doesn't read their email etc. | [22:13] |
| lobbes: | the latter group of people don't even understand what a private key is tho, by and large | [22:13] |
| lobbes: | this new 'social media generation' | [22:14] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: how wouldja even explain concept of 'private' to people who dun even own a computer. | [22:15] |
| asciilifeform: | lobbes: these same people, can't even hide porn under bed from mother. where would they put 'private' key. | [22:15] |
| lobbes: | well, they think they 'own their phone' at least. but yeah, indeed, how to even start the explaination | [22:17] |
| shrysr: | well..even brief look at the ads is enough to confirm google does i guess? its prolly like treasure trove for em. … same for shithub.. how cd they not peek? i guess if i had chance – i def would… but isnt – private key / encryption or atleast fundamentals kindda 101 for atleast comp sci ppl ? | [22:20] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: believe or not, i've met people who passed whatever freshman course, and can say how e.g. rsa worx, but somehow fail to understand that when you keep the key on a 3rd party's machine, it aint private in any sense | [22:21] |
| asciilifeform: | they have a fairy tale in their heads, about how the shithole they live in supposedly works, and this aint removable via mathematical education, only via bitter experience (if then) | [22:22] |
| asciilifeform: | it is for them that theatrical spectacles like 'apple defied fbi!111' and similar, are put on | [22:24] |
| shrysr: | but apple did defy ………….. ?? | [22:27] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: when you see 'muppet show' where frog kermit has argument with piggy, you understand that they are puppets, one on each hand of puppeteer, right ? cuz you aren't 3yo | [22:28] |
| shrysr: | yes? you mean it was all fucking staged? | [22:28] |
| asciilifeform: | noshit | [22:28] |
| asciilifeform: | same theatre as with the frong. just for slightly larger children. | [22:29] |
| asciilifeform: | *frog | [22:29] |
| shrysr: | thinking… fuck me…x01 | [22:30] |
| shrysr: | so there *is* a backdoor on each iphone ? | [22:31] |
| asciilifeform: | not only each, but collectively . | [22:31] |
| asciilifeform: | how do you think 'updates' work. | [22:32] |
| asciilifeform: | or what do you suppose 'cloud storage' is about in the first place. | [22:32] |
| shrysr: | but why! if this abt 'control' everything, but then get what ? nation of drones ? | [22:35] |
| lobbes: | another puppet example: I work at one of those 'big banks', specifically in a 'compliance' dept. doing 'reporting'. I always laugh when coworkers say "it is like we are the police of the bank", to which I say: "No, it is more like an elaborate interpretative dance!" | [22:35] |
| lobbes: | I've lost count of how many times the 'reports' are changed/fudged before release, or how completely constructed ALL of the data is, or how many times I've heard that the various audit agents of the 'OCC' (office of comptrollers of the currency) literally just look for some \% of issues boxes to tick on their sheet. It is all pretend, to make it *look like something* is happening. To justify the printing | [22:35] |
| lobbes: | of more useless fiat to keep the bloated limbs dancing | [22:36] |
| lobbes: | to justify lining various bureaucrats' pockets. they who contribute nothing, but expect something | [22:36] |
| asciilifeform: | see also. | [22:37] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2018-06-10 21:35:02 asciilifeform: https://archive.li/A4vO1 << various lulz in re that famous octopus. | [22:37] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: what do they get ? your bitcoin, for instance, if yer dumb enuff to park it on a microshit box. | [22:39] |
| asciilifeform: | or, say, in the 'silk road' case — they get a clown to parade in a cage, AND the coin | [22:41] |
| asciilifeform: | or, in the wilson case, they get to plant 'evidence' and yet another clown to parade in a cage . | [22:42] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2016-07-17 14:00:19 asciilifeform: or, even, 'But if Wilson wins, he says, Defense Distributed has plenty of material it’s never been able to share—a backlog of homespun, open source weapon innovations, ready to upload.' | [22:42] |
| asciilifeform: | or.. could go on for a month, but why. it's all in the #t log. | [22:42] |
| asciilifeform: | and yes, as lobbes said, 1e6 bureaucrats get wage , dental, and pension, for overseeing the theatre. | [22:43] |
| lobbes: | indeed, that's the rub of the various socialisms: the exceptional man is hung to support the common man | [22:44] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: backdoor worx equally well for writing as for reading, i hope i dun have to explain this, it is elementary. | [22:47] |
| whaack: | Apple/FBI was low effort puppet work. AlphaGo was the one that still has whaack puzzled/clapping at show | [22:50] |
| asciilifeform: | diff. shows for diff. folx. | [22:50] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: though elementary :- i am still new to this: my understanding is backdoor essentially not too different from… well 'frontdoor'.. you can pretty much do what you like is my understanding. | [22:53] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: it simply means the machine aint yours, but belongs to the other fella. he's merely letting you use it sometimes. | [22:54] |
| shrysr: | right. | [22:54] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: curious > what phone do you use then ? | [22:55] |
| asciilifeform: | the fact that, in e.g. case of 'smartphone', you ~paid~ him for this, is immaterial — he just laughs harder | [22:55] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: i dun use phones often | [22:55] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: was raised from childhood, also, not to say anything 'interesting' into, or within range, of a phone , fwiw. | [22:58] |
| lobbes: | uses phone mainly to read logs when away from terminal, and to make phone calls. x01 | [22:59] |
| lobbes: | but important data is kept far from it, sure. Proper airgapping is also your friend | [23:00] |
| asciilifeform: | bbl:meatx01 | [23:00] |
| shrysr: | lobbes: yea i have read a trilema piece/guide for that ..i intend to implement when i get better traction on my current shit. | [23:03] |
| lobbes: | yeah, that trilema was my guide as well. 'Tis good stuff | [23:05] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002179 < may i ask why? where did you grow up? my presumed impression was you are in/from the USA.. | [23:47] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-11 22:42:38 asciilifeform: shrysr: was raised from childhood, also, not to say anything 'interesting' into, or within range, of a phone , fwiw. | [23:47] |
#ossasepia Logs for 10 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | lobbes: that's good, thank you. | [03:08] |
| diana_coman: | !Xlist | [03:09] |
| auctionbot: | B#1057 O=100mn LB=100mn E=2019-09-12 20:26:41.479316 (74h5) >>> item as described in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934605 and following. | [03:09] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 04:57:27 mircea_popescu: so : who would like to do a spot of work for hire for me ? the ideea is to write and publish as a vpatch a stan logbot extension which a) processes search, through talking to a [presumably present] mysql server, and spitting out the results (formatted as in http://trilema.com/2019/ | [03:09] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 100mn total bids — | [03:09] |
| diana_coman: | nice | [03:09] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:58] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 2d 9h 18m | [03:58] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001798 – note also that code is effectively created as useful item (and as opposed to random text/found on github) *by the signers* | [07:26] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 15:29:32 asciilifeform: (i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the background hum of the universe, coad found on shithub, etc. someone could read it still and sign it, but few will find any desire to bother ) | [07:26] |
| diana_coman: | most emphatically, code is *not created* automatically by whoever pushes some keys somewhere; IF and only if it gets signed, THEN it becomes code and still ONLY for those who explicitly trust the signer. | [07:29] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001724 – how did you plan/see this leverage, more precisely? | [07:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 13:19:48 shrysr: continue that even after getting work and atleast make pocket money to begin with and slowly only contract jobs …. earn in $, gain good exp – go back home to leverage. For that matter – that still had flaws…. business approach quite different n etc. | [07:32] |
| auctionbot: | B#1057 O=100mn LB=100mn E=2019-09-12 20:26:41.479316 (68h26) >>> item as described in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934605 and following. | [08:48] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 04:57:27 mircea_popescu: so : who would like to do a spot of work for hire for me ? the ideea is to write and publish as a vpatch a stan logbot extension which a) processes search, through talking to a [presumably present] mysql server, and spitting out the results (formatted as in http://trilema.com/2019/ | [08:48] |
| auctionbot: | — end of auction list, 100mn total bids — | [08:48] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001820 << In general, my thoughts (and exp) are that white folx are 'respected' for 'skills' and 'better knowledge' back home, from the industry perspective. More importantly, I'd say a 'systematic' approach to doing things, including topics they know nothing about – is viewed as impressive, because perhaps the prevailing population in India do not care | [12:31] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 07:17:22 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001724 – how did you plan/see this leverage, more precisely? | [12:31] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 13:19:48 shrysr: continue that even after getting work and atleast make pocket money to begin with and slowly only contract jobs …. earn in $, gain good exp – go back home to leverage. For that matter – that still had flaws…. business approach quite different n etc. | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | enough to approach it that way and I'm guessing for them more its like a short-term 'survival' thinking mode. Employing white folx also adds a 'dimension' to representation of the company (or ego) – saying 'I have a brit d00d from BP' on my payroll. For that matter – I think beyond somewhat better english language fluency, perhaps my exp in Leeds and general thinking – I subscribed to the 'western' way, | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | and thus related much faster and significantly more accurately in relationships with say Germans (first salt mine), and Americans (2nd salt mine) — which accelerated my growth at the mines on many levels. The most important for me was extracting missing knowledge. This was actually – a 'thought experiment' in the sense – I thought this is a 'likely advantage' while returning from UK. It was fwiw. I was | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | also kindda lucky – I worked in mines dealing somewhat closely with foreign masters, rather an extra indirect distance via red tape etc. I guess I have forced closer interactions as well, i.e doing best to not allow only boss/lead to interact by simple measures like taking initiative of communication/meetings…drafting emails for boss, and then sending out myself… or enticing 'imagine if we are asked | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | this in customer meeting nxt week, *you* will end up looking like idiot + delay negotiation saying 'will revert after white master is consulted''..'what if competition has instant answer?'. lol. I believe it was also re-confirmed / further shaped by dads stories – which typically indicated *stark* differences in professional approach, overall elegance, 'sticking to correct technical approach and time | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | required' etc. In a nutshell – ppl *wanted* the above things… and it is much more abundant in the west – but they also want it in a 'controlled' influx for lack of better word. | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | Ofc – i won't become white or european like M.Jackson lol, but the idea was 'live' in the systematic approach, learn + practise the right way to do stuff, and then return to drive relationships, workflows etc with a superior knowledge base, including upfront exposure. Having earned in $ in the past + Local base – would enable me to be satisfied with lower payscales and lesser 'demands' than actual white | [12:34] |
| shrysr: | folx + locals have more comfort dealing with (golden-) brown (lol) boy like me, making me overall more attractive as a choice, by which time I should have a base for 'consultancy' or gigs to drive pocket money (atleast). lmao… its not totally insensible – but somehow the above sounds .. well based on 'non-progressive traits of orcs' when broken down, even though its not even a plan yet.. | [12:34] |
| shrysr: | There are many flaws and the above is still a simplification of a complex dynamic. There has been evidence both supporting and opposing the chances of success. 1. my own family, as in wife kids etc (if it ever happens) is likely to add severe complications to moving back . 2. compartmentalisation, and actually gaining knowledge in 'fields/areas' that they need in India. Not to mention self-sufficiency *is* | [12:37] |
| shrysr: | increasing albeit in a trickling fashion – beyond a point of pain – progressive white masters do want frameworks with minimal baby-sitting. 3. Several cases of such white folx stationed in local office 'to fix things' who end up drinking away misery and doing nothing, and biding time to go back – thus fueling impression that 'it doesn't work'. fwiw: several opposite cases where they do fix stuff. 4. Those | [12:37] |
| shrysr: | who do have capacity to think (+ exposure) do understand – white folx are human like the rest with flaws – they are not as 'absorbent' in the sense – many don't learn quickly or relate enough to overall attitude and business practises (extreme negotiation, day long meetings, stoking egos of big-swinging-dicks to get 'deal') to be completely effective. | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you don't seem to realise but your biggest win and advantage in fact is precisely the familiarity you gained with *both* systems; to the extent that you can interface effectively, it's a huge bonus but by leverage I meant your actual plan of action. | [12:47] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I don't think it makes sense to go and look for employment but rather directly consultancy (or at any rate your own business there) | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | precisely capitalising on "schooled in the UK + worked in USA and Canada and with Germany etc" | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | not to mention that you can effectively sell the other part to the West too – local connections and know-how | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | but more importantly and now that you saw enough (?) of both: where do you actually want to live? | [12:49] |
| shrysr: | hmm the plan was to flesh out the idea after resolving present problems of stable income… and lets say…find enough peace to put head down and stay in a mine till above could be worked out optimally. Atleast in the past mine-year … i've not given this much attention – the thought is also that I've not seen enough of work in canada…. i've not found a place i dont mind hanging around, tmsr excluded. | [13:15] |
| shrysr: | fwiw: the reverse selling of local connections/know-how was in fact on the cards even at current salt-mine. infact took initiative last… november – gifted a list of contacts, companies + verbal description company + individual traits + ideas to penetrate market etc… gift was grabbed and then was harshly rebuked – 'contacts are not everyting.. we offer superior tech (not true), we dont believe in | [13:15] |
| shrysr: | negotiating (?!??), we sell plenty to india (1 customer found via erp process so far), 'you dont know what you are talking abt'… | [13:15] |
| shrysr: | i say gifted – but i was also 'asked', based on interview where i said 'i can do this for you' | [13:16] |
| shrysr: | i say gifted because I did not withold info or do some 'power ploy'… ppl actually pay for that kind of info gathered by 'agents' in india. | [13:18] |
| shrysr: | and that was done as a conscious decision…tbh. | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | eh, for one thing you won't be able to "optimally" anything upfront like that; you DO need a plan and a thorough one, sure, but you'll actually find exactly what the problems are only once you are on the ground. | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | ofc they do; but either you ARE on your own feet and THEN you can even force them to buy it or …you are the new employee desperate enough so that they could hire, in which case there isn't much to talk about, no | [13:20] |
| diana_coman: | not to mention that doing something *right* means also doing it for the right people, ofc. | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | for & with; as the saying goes, can't quite make silk purse out of sow's ear. | [13:22] |
| shrysr: | lol nice saying. yes.. i agree. I guess…. i desperately wanted to believe in the good side of a black orc …considering older age, exp…and some minute good traits. that i cd make the good side prevail for me or something. I've even reviewed whether what he said was true.. whether I was wrong… over reaching.. downright delusional, since even a long time perhaps. i guess…. i lost hope after sometime | [14:01] |
| shrysr: | of analysing. After awhile i believe I was just… living day to day…the erp n all that was a desperate clinging to try to recover …and get out 'someday'. I guess I lost belief i could… or ever would for that matter. Being stoned stops the tears. fwiw my mom remarked recently that they both noticed that i was 'suddenly slipping' .. prob somewhere around feb … and i have supposedly been stubbornly | [14:01] |
| shrysr: | rejecting their every attempt to 'lift me up'… i presume there is a distinct difference in the 'way i talk' or respond. Like i said… when i popped up here… I was almost in some kind of stupor.. and even after that – it has taken me time to trust… or regain hope. it doesnt have to be that way i guess…. maybe its because rage consumes me at some point. | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | well, you need a more solid structure on which to rely so you don't end up thrown about and banging on extremes for no good reason. | [14:10] |
| diana_coman: | structure of thought first and foremost; and note that idealism is precisely the inability to see (notice+comprehend) much of the fabric of reality. | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, I gather that they noticed you are recovering? | [14:12] |
| shrysr: | yes. asked me to thank you… | [14:13] |
| shrysr: | thank you on their behalf and i am myself grateful…much more than i can hope to convey in words. | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: glad to hear they see it, because their eyes are -from what I gather – the most "trained" mirror on the subject that you currently have. | [14:46] |
| diana_coman: | conveying in actions is great :) | [14:47] |
| diana_coman: | speaking of which, I thought you wanted to post a draft as per 1.1 in http://younghands.club/2019/09/09/week-9-tasks/ ? | [14:48] |
| shrysr: | they are the only mirrors i've consistently had… the few others are varying degrees of reflections. | [14:48] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001697 not solely. but most critical driving factor…. plus that -in their eyes – i have bits and pieces from different areas and dont conform to exactly what they want… i.e the job description, and no 'serious' credit given to learning ability – which fine, is not measurable – i've tried to provide evidence that i worked with 2 entirely different | [14:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 12:03:50 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001694 – are you sure it's the 5X experience solely? | [14:48] |
| shrysr: | products/jobs/compaines etc and *made* impact. fwiw: this is gathered via inference from the *few* who actually provided some semblance of feedback. | [14:48] |
| diana_coman: | that is inescapable (re mirrors and degrees). | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the "not ticking the boxes" quite sure, yes; re impact, from you said, you probably also conveyed (without realising it, sure) "difficult to mould to the shape we want" and since that's what they want for as long as you look at fiat-jobs, well… | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | yes… i will post draft of 1.1 today. Re: mould… i have to say i agree. well, even so then the problem was acquiring the deficit to fit mould – which i cd not realistically do in my field/subjects. Besides that – i must say I never believed in 'changing mould'… i guess i decided if i had to acquire deficit and fit some damn mould – then i'd find as 'flexible' mould as possible lol leading to data-hag | [15:04] |
| shrysr: | then entering the funnel (and *is* very apt description) – and finding something close to good there kindda by trial and error – and….reaching… top of same funnel loll, in terms of 'quality resources'. | [15:04] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001699 re: more jobs than ppl, atleast in canada – thats often an illusion. They post jobs even if they dont wanna hire or will hire 'next year' or something… sometimes, mistaken posts After hiring! some will even explicitly state – no phone calls! like scam to collect CV's as trophies or something. sure not *always* an illusion, but a *good* number of | [15:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 12:05:20 diana_coman: I have no idea re Canada but at a quickest of looks around here, it certainly seems that there are more jobs than people willing to take them on; still, I can't see any non-tmsr-job as something helping you much esp when actually doing the calculation re whether they pay you or it's in fact the opposite | [15:08] |
| shrysr: | cases I believe are so… gathered from convos. lol. | [15:08] |
| shrysr: | I believe this and [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001762] [this] have been impediments in my head towards not plunging into a press and getting dirty with the code… | [15:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 14:11:22 asciilifeform: shrysr: my point is that if you are looking for a proof that 'is in fact difficult', will probably spend the rest of your life looking. there aint any such proof, for any of'em. | [15:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 14:15:12 asciilifeform: shrysr: in order to grasp 'v', it is necessary to first postulate that hash and rsa work . (~then~, later, will be very obvious what happens if they do not) | [15:15] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001770 I realise from my question there that i am still confusing 'hash'/signing and encrypting. | [15:28] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 14:30:43 asciilifeform: shrysr: hash is used in signing, rather than encrypting | [15:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: heh, the benefits of re-reading, see? even re-reading your *own* questions. | [15:41] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes… indeed. re: asking nicoleci – i thought it wd be more productive to revise the cv based on composite jd's and then ask? | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: certainly; even better: you first revise cv until you consider it best; then let me know and I'll ask her. | [15:50] |
| shrysr: | okay will do. | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: at any rate, the solution to "confusing" is to …write it down; there's a reason I kept asking you to summarise stuff (and it's not because I lack what to read otherwise, ahem). | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001878 << don't hesitate to ask re what specifically you still find confusing | [16:24] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 15:13:03 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001770 I realise from my question there that i am still confusing 'hash'/signing and encrypting. | [16:24] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: lol pretty sure you dont lack much, least of all anything to read! i see that better now though…abt summarising… abt talking. during the very initial exploration itself – i *did* suddenly get the pressing…i.e i got the overview of V – but then resisted the urge to see the code thinking i am not ready to see it, i dont know wtf i am doing … i shd have gone with the urge or flow… i shd | [16:30] |
| shrysr: | have let myself 'play'. i guess, the problem is not only restricted to V… but also applicable to my forays of ML… theres always 'something that shd be in place before i do this'. .. for eg: that glmnet algo? i stopped at that point in that course some *months* ago. Sure I *got* the gist n all… but i wanted more..my goal wasnt to finish. The guy who posted the Q, posted —- answer/solutions etc came | [16:30] |
| shrysr: | after some weeks – abt that time he announced to usual great fanfare he finished the course!! Knowing the algo is not something trivial – but the point is – i seem to refuse to move on and return later… re-read….relax…play.. refuse to attack 'intelligently' w/o head-butting and destroying wall of ignorance immediately. | [16:30] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: 'resisted the urge to see the code thinking i am not ready to see it' is absolutely never the smart thing to do . | [16:33] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: if yer waiting for the sky to open and voice of odin to say to you 'you are nao ready to read the coad!' — will wait a very long time. | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | ^^^^ exactly as asciilifeform says! | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: is it another sort of "not smart if not got it directly" or what? | [16:36] |
| diana_coman: | you *need to* feel it up/play with it to actually master it, no matter what "it" is. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | and in fact, the *more* ways you find to interact with it (even/especially those that fail unexpectedely), the *better* you'll get to know it | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001890 – never tried impersonating Odin, so yeah, no chance of that! | [16:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 16:34:43 asciilifeform: shrysr: if yer waiting for the sky to open and voice of odin to say to you 'you are nao ready to read the coad!' — will wait a very long time. | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Sep-2019#1001886 – actually lacking time (could do with 48 hours to the day) and more productive people around, there's work for 10 easily. | [16:41] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 16:30:01 shrysr: diana_coman: lol pretty sure you dont lack much, least of all anything to read! i see that better now though…abt summarising… abt talking. during the very initial exploration itself – i *did* suddenly get the pressing…i.e i got the overview of V – but then resisted the urge to see the code thinking i am not ready to see it, i dont know wtf i am doing … i shd have gone with the urge or flow… i shd | [16:41] |
| shrysr: | perhaps some elements of 'not smart..'. i guess more related to 'mastery' of the whole thing *before* playing, rather than playing repeatedly to gain mastery… and actually playing with… no 'restriction'. its not present everywhere as far as i can see… but its obviously there where it shdnt be. | [16:58] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-08#1001579 << well ASD was ..well, easy to do, with sculptor, the software i used. but i'm not sure i have a good enough idea of what computer graphics would entail. How wd I get a .. well a 'quick feel' ? Blender tutorial ? fwiw: the 3D modeling i did were not monsters or characters – but 'pumps' … not even the surfacing type stuff that you do with cars. | [19:27] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-08 08:46:18 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001553 – aha, arbitrary shape deformation is one tool for "sculpting" 3D shapes (hence stuff like characters or monsters in a game for instance), indeed; the question for you here is whether this is something that really speaks to you (because if it is and you are willing to work it properly, there's a good opportunity with eulora right there) | [19:28] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 22:45:12 shrysr: the closest i guess i came to graphics was with my masters thesis… using a software called sculptor – they used something called arbitrary shape deformation (ASD) and NURBS to deform geometries i.e meshes and create quick variations of geometry instead of completely remeshing for each change. i used to find meshing very challenging…kindda hated that part of the whole process, then slowly became | [19:28] |
| shrysr: | It was pretty much a 'set approach' .. I dont rem the terminology for the surfacing. Class A surfaces? In short – whatever modeling/meshing i did – well — tedius initially, but of course subsequently – it was fine. For eg, i was using solidworks / UG NX. | [19:28] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001842 << TBH : i do not care much abt where i live…. india is comfortable being home fwiw. All this.. shift to canada.. etc etc has been… towards a 'career' … 'cool ppl' etc. That career itself is 'changing' now. For eg: If i had decided in india – fuck mech engg – whether IT/data-hag/banking whateva – i dont think i wd have bothered abt the west. | [20:47] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 12:34:12 diana_coman: but more importantly and now that you saw enough (?) of both: where do you actually want to live? | [20:47] |
| shrysr: | i'm saying that — i just care abt work. and becoming the best i can and doing great work…(well eventually atleast), and Its FAR more enjoyable working with ppl who have brains. | [20:47] |
| shrysr: | http://trilema.com/2017/the-universal-plan-for-wealth/#selection-171.0-171.114 << seriously ??!!! ????????? | [20:55] |
| shrysr: | i cant stop laughing after reading the article….. in light of the shit i've faced in the last 2 years. I dont know *shit* abt finance fwiw. well ok – i understand stocks and mutual funds to some extent. | [21:07] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001894 << this is beautifully stated btw :D | [22:09] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 19:38:19 diana_coman: you *need to* feel it up/play with it to actually master it, no matter what "it" is. | [22:09] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-10#1001900 << exactly. think about it: do you master a language *before* speaking your first word? master walking *before* even taking a first step? "master eating" before taking first bite? While comedic to a point, this is very serious. In the latter example you'd starve to death on a very real level. | [22:09] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-10 19:59:50 shrysr: perhaps some elements of 'not smart..'. i guess more related to 'mastery' of the whole thing *before* playing, rather than playing repeatedly to gain mastery… and actually playing with… no 'restriction'. its not present everywhere as far as i can see… but its obviously there where it shdnt be. | [22:09] |
| lobbes: | shrysr: really, just jump into that code and start chewing. Compared to your knowledge level now, I was an utter retard when I started my tmsr journey (arguably still am), yet somehow I made it into the lordship by the simple act of *doing things*. Hell, even now I bet you could blow me out of the water if you simply started eating | [22:10] |
| lobbes: | that and poor diana_coman's gonna burn out if she keeps running on one engine like this. Best way to show your gratitude is indeed through *action* | [22:11] |
#ossasepia Logs for 09 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | lobbes: mind getting auctionbot in here too? | [03:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: iirc my map of Canada, Alberta&Calgary are closer to British Columbia/Vancouver than to Toronto on the other side; is this correct? Have you considered BC/Vancouver too since you are looking countrywide anyway? | [03:17] |
| diana_coman: | and at any rate, ideally you'd want some remote work in fact. | [03:18] |
| diana_coman: | I have to admit that reading those job descriptions (the actual ones) triggers my alergies instantly; it seems to me though that you should focus on "junior analyst/programmer" + target the application to each place you send, at least (though yes, I'd discard some just for being too toxic environments really) | [03:28] |
| diana_coman: | re cv help, perhaps nicoleci would be kind enough to give you some feedback as she worked as head of HR in the USA so she knows this sort of shit way better than me. | [03:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw, there's this Python job offer right here, as an idea re "alternatives": http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934605 | [04:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 05:13:01 mircea_popescu: so : who would like to do a spot of work for hire for me ? the ideea is to write and publish as a vpatch a stan logbot extension which a) processes search, through talking to a [presumably present] mysql server, and spitting out the results (formatted as in http://trilema.com/2019/ | [04:02] |
| diana_coman: | it's not clear to me that you are ready for this particular offer but you should at least think it through. | [04:03] |
| lobbes: | !Xping | [11:02] |
| auctionbot: | pong | [11:02] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: it is in, but I do not have it set to list auctions | [11:02] |
| lobbes: | you okay if I do? I'll just need to add it to the cron job | [11:03] |
| lobbes: | will bblx01 | [11:05] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes, BC/Vancouver are closer than toronto on the other side. 12 hr bus ride from calgary to vancouver. ~3 hr flight. vancouver generally equivalent to toronto overall, i guess (+ loose internet feedback). good number of IT/tech companies from job postings (less than toronto iirc, but still likely higher than calgary). THe plan was to look at those in detail after calgary (based on proximity), | [11:13] |
| shrysr: | but yes, I've actually been thinking its worth a quick foray to expand the list to consider vancouver. fwiw: in my first jobless year – after a point I made abs no distinction in geography, if there was a vacancy – i applied. | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001675 – yes, please do. | [11:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:03:02 lobbes: you okay if I do? I'll just need to add it to the cron job | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what sort of jobs did you apply for in that first year anyway? | [11:16] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001672 this sounds quite interesting. afaik : sql and db fluency is quite important for data analyst/scientist whateva, and it sounds like text analysis is involved here, plus the html-like output, which are alll good. My general sense is that I was making progress in V, needed to brush up python at a point (i did do that well) – and i think that if I | [11:22] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 03:47:30 diana_coman: it's not clear to me that you are ready for this particular offer but you should at least think it through. | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | focus only on that (and python) for a bit – i can overcome my learning epsilon-threshold on the subject – and shd be able to breathe and take in faster. It just so happened that I found Matt dancho and his R/Data scientist related courses are the best I've seen – plus for general data cleaning, i believe (from very small exposure) and also from feedback from guys (who know their stuff, atleast a lot more | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | than me), R is just easier than python (pandas)…. since anyway most of the job is cleaning, and I just 'got R'… i plunged into R. fwiw : after gaining proficiency in R, it is actually not so bad using python. Its just that i need to do it for a while and consolidate the pieces in my head. | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001682 towards the end about 90\% mech engg stuff (10\% data hag :P). design engg, application engineer (like a sales engg or whateva). Even the dreaded project mgmt roles (the roles which have WAY too much P, and very superficial knowledge gain), eveyrthing in between. In reality – the distinction is that – there are different kinds of design. i.e there | [11:33] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:01:00 diana_coman: shrysr: what sort of jobs did you apply for in that first year anyway? | [11:33] |
| shrysr: | are guys who just make technical drawings or 3D models. Say – making a drawing of a pump, but not needing to knowing the physics inside, but more abt manufacturing constraints…. and doing things as told. I fall into the 'advanced analysis' where I can do a bit of technical drawings (i learnt that bit only to fulfill my 'complete exposure' thing) – but i'm doing design calculations, and telling these guys | [11:33] |
| shrysr: | how it shd be or whateva. The distinction is somewhat complex in india – you call such design engg 'drafters' in india, and they dont get paid terribly much… here, predominantly – the design engg roles are drafter roles, and overall – it appears very few companies (perhaps only 2 handsful) do any great analysis. Its of course quite different in the USA. | [11:33] |
| shrysr: | in a way – the distinction is kindda clear out here in many ways…. (still there are pros and cons) For ex, application engg (technical sales) roles – which is not bad, but still potentially lot of (P) are few in number, and much much more sales oriented than technical… I guess that is a mistake I did, but by definition – theres supposed to be a distinction between application engg and a fucking sales | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | guy! probably needless to say – i can do sales, and probably understand the needs of a customer and relate it well to cost/our product – but its a lot of…. lying. Then its like convincing yourself aabt degrees of lying, or half truths or whateva. Anyway – while all this is in my head – i figured I cd get in and then find my way around, as usual. Before migrating – while i did apply to many jobs from | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | india itself – i guess I still had the enthusiasm of 'finding' my way around inside companies. After all the so called thinking… i came to the conclusion – it was stupid fundamentally. I can't keep switching companies or departments in search of better exposure, because in general they dont seem to like it or see the value in a wide exposure/learning capability anyway! i cant learn the way I want to and | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | fight the industry…(or anything outside myself perhaps) If knowledge/skill is atleast one cornerstone of power – then i need a field where I *can* learn and *can* come up with work reflecting that… and YES- remote work. Data analysis/even ML (yes, ppl offer ML lol on fiver iirc) is reasonably conducive to this. its another reason. Overall – my thinking is that in most cases ppl view my | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | experience/communication/results as good n nice n sometimes even impressive – and then find 5X more experienced ppl as safer choices. | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001684 – myeah, but so far focus doesn't seem to stay all that long in one place with you. | [11:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:22:30 shrysr: focus only on that (and python) for a bit – i can overcome my learning epsilon-threshold on the subject – and shd be able to breathe and take in faster. It just so happened that I found Matt dancho and his R/Data scientist related courses are the best I've seen – plus for general data cleaning, i believe (from very small exposure) and also from feedback from guys (who know their stuff, atleast a lot more | [11:52] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001694 – are you sure it's the 5X experience solely? | [12:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:50:47 shrysr: experience/communication/results as good n nice n sometimes even impressive – and then find 5X more experienced ppl as safer choices. | [12:03] |
| diana_coman: | I have no idea re Canada but at a quickest of looks around here, it certainly seems that there are more jobs than people willing to take them on; still, I can't see any non-tmsr-job as something helping you much esp when actually doing the calculation re whether they pay you or it's in fact the opposite | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001691 – fwiw this is ~true, yes. | [12:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:50:41 shrysr: guy! probably needless to say – i can do sales, and probably understand the needs of a customer and relate it well to cost/our product – but its a lot of…. lying. Then its like convincing yourself aabt degrees of lying, or half truths or whateva. Anyway – while all this is in my head – i figured I cd get in and then find my way around, as usual. Before migrating – while i did apply to many jobs from | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | ^ meant re usual "sales" of shit is lying; by necessity even. | [12:09] |
| shrysr: | I see why you say that re diluted or sproadic focus….it has been true of late, particularly in the last year. For abt 5.5 years – i lived and breathed only CFD. but in this case, or atleast in the phase I've been in chan – it is really that I'm being pulled in too many directions. use R for erp… learn R for ML…so called portfolio project… so called 'transformation' from mech engg to 'the analyst | [12:11] |
| shrysr: | salt-mines want/need!' (shd be a commercial eh) the tension and borderline panic of getting out of hell hole… increasing with Every interaction with orcs here. You know- i did mention, there was a phase when I was trying to just …. accept – its fine here, i am all wrong abt everything. the reality is that i work in a place where i've literally seen ppl fired on the spot! for seriously crazy reasons! | [12:11] |
| shrysr: | whims, having a bad day – looking around for target and meandered in path like unsuspecting deer!! despite being very good at their jobs… all the more worse – no notice period, or even a notion of 'transfering knowledge/current work'. where less than 10\% employees are salaried (i am)… and apparently viewed Purely as liability/cost, while called 'family'! LOL. nowadays i can laugh at it. | [12:12] |
| diana_coman: | myeah, utterly poor deal you got yourself there; but the mind-boggling thing is that you seem bent on getting in another similar arrangement on dubious hopes that "they can't be as bad" and somehow they will be more committed to you. | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: for that matter – don't you have any holidays you can take or what? | [12:25] |
| shrysr: | lol. c'mon the above description is definitely not how it is in a lot of places! Even at ownership type companies (esp at lower levels)…. i had 2 conversations last week. One with a human, and one with black orc, after ppt. the human happens to be a design engg, drafter whatever – older, tasked now to support me… and help review n stuff as required. The human, a local canadian for practical | [12:25] |
| shrysr: | considerations immediately told me of her own accord (no prompting from me) – yes… its..uhhh… quite different here….it is run uhhhh… quite different, and very hard to get used to. She comes here 3 days a week, on a contract. One Must wonder – why wd one come here, if they had any choice? I intend to ask her if i get a chance. | [12:26] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001708 – superficially I'm sure it's not, indeed; and you probably get there to see the "naked" non-pretense thing; in the rest of places, for as long as there are still more resources around, the pretense is better kept and nicely packaged; and many – otherwise well intended – buy it in, too; but the core remains – the employer (esp western style) has no real incentive to any commitment, | [12:32] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 12:25:58 shrysr: lol. c'mon the above description is definitely not how it is in a lot of places! Even at ownership type companies (esp at lower levels)…. i had 2 conversations last week. One with a human, and one with black orc, after ppt. the human happens to be a design engg, drafter whatever – older, tasked now to support me… and help review n stuff as required. The human, a local canadian for practical | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | esp if you are to still have any energy left at the end of the day. | [12:32] |
| shrysr: | i'm inclined to agree abt western style. This is not prevalent in india at all.. (yes there are other factors going into allowing that to happen… foreign masters, gen lower pay (esp v/s inflation (to the minor extent i know that topic)… overall culture, and a Very clear segregation of what 'educated' work entails v/s non-educated labor) ok i completely agree at the core it Is a pretense everywhere in | [12:46] |
| shrysr: | varying degrees….. in one way you may say atleast hez not hiding his so called feelings and fires ppl instead of fucking them up slowwwwllyyyy, (maybe he cant afford to do so). ha! but unfortunately – for subsistence – some mine is required… till i find my way in tmsr, and esp improve my coding skills. a better pretense could also mean – a place i can put my head down and work, without being affected | [12:46] |
| shrysr: | by black orcs. In fact, thats why i thought, ok – why not do that here…and failed. | [12:46] |
| shrysr: | fwiw: failed twice i guess. once before tmsr and once after. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | hm. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001707 | [12:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 12:25:24 diana_coman: shrysr: for that matter – don't you have any holidays you can take or what? | [12:57] |
| shrysr: | brb 10 min. | [13:00] |
| diana_coman: | re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001682 lobbes' structured account of it is a good example of attempting to figure stuff out so you can ask well-formed questions http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/09/the-mp-wp-bot-job-offer/ | [13:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:22:28 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001672 this sounds quite interesting. afaik : sql and db fluency is quite important for data analyst/scientist whateva, and it sounds like text analysis is involved here, plus the html-like output, which are alll good. My general sense is that I was making progress in V, needed to brush up python at a point (i did do that well) – and i think that if I | [13:03] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 03:47:30 diana_coman: it's not clear to me that you are ready for this particular offer but you should at least think it through. | [13:03] |
| shrysr: | in fact – i cant say i was ignorant abt the western style or did not think abt that before migrating. there were several occassions I'd be working with a d00d in the USA, and next day hes gone! poof! not a hint. I took it as a fact of life…that wd not be insurmountable. early on after migrating in fact – during jobless phase – thats why i did atleast some research on remote gigs… the idea was to | [13:19] |
| shrysr: | continue that even after getting work and atleast make pocket money to begin with and slowly only contract jobs …. earn in $, gain good exp – go back home to leverage. For that matter – that still had flaws…. business approach quite different n etc. | [13:19] |
| shrysr: | re: holidays i get 2 weeks of paid leave in a year i believe…. took none the first year. my parents are gonna be in new jersey over winter and i was to visit for 2 weeks…. supposed to start looking into tickets now. Get to meet my new newphew who is due in some weeks. The Great Hope was that I'd be outta here longggg before… i.e its still in a fluid state atm, in the sense – getting out is first | [13:26] |
| shrysr: | priority. | [13:26] |
| diana_coman: | I see; and according to you, it might anyway be that you get fired the moment you take any leave, be it paid or unpaid, lolz. | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: don't you actually need a visa for the US? | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | newphew is great word btw | [13:31] |
| shrysr: | lol nephew* TBH typo. I have a B1/B2 visa thanks to my prev salt mine and visit to oklahoma… still valid for some more years. technically i can visit on business. | [13:32] |
| shrysr: | re fired. possibly yes.. lol. I will admit as i said – they are growing suspicions… fwiw: the volatility also means that may not happen.. atleast for me — it was kindda liberating to just accept that its significantly more likely than unlikely (unless business starts roaring… fwiw: thats supposed to happen from sep… must own crystal ball i havent heard of)… liberating because I cd let go and | [13:41] |
| shrysr: | really plunge into getting out. also liberating because of you i guess… theres suddenly hope that if i dont give up – and dont allow my self to be distracted.. or go wayward due to stupid confusions – i can find a stable place and construct a realistic exit from slavery in time… and not … hide anymore. | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so come and visit Reading, have a talk face to face at least, then. | [13:43] |
| shrysr: | hmm.. UK > iirc need visa? or was that only for work… need to check if i made notes on that. iirc citizen of canada needs no visa to visit, idk if same for PR like me. | [13:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that's for you to check indeed, it's your papers anyway. | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: can you apply for canadian citizenship? | [13:48] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001518 may i ask why? as in why you barely spoke a few words/day for months? | [13:48] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:18:54 diana_coman: re talking, if it's any help, I probably get it more than you think (I still remember full months when I barely spoke a few words per day); but for this very reason I can tell you now that you should still talk. | [13:48] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001669 how shd I get in touch? private ping / email ? | [13:50] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 03:14:03 diana_coman: re cv help, perhaps nicoleci would be kind enough to give you some feedback as she worked as head of HR in the USA so she knows this sort of shit way better than me. | [13:50] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001737 yes. Need to have been here for i think 2-3 years… forget the exact number of days… theres a test (canadian history culture etc). Wd have to give up citizenship of india…. but i have nt gone into details abt this. | [13:56] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 13:32:55 diana_coman: shrysr: can you apply for canadian citizenship? | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: at the time I didn't have a clear "why"; what I can find looking back is mainly http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/25/the-new-old-vilnius-of-2019/?b=Perhaps&e=#select (though there's ofc nothing online from *that* time). | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | you can politely ask nicoleci in #trilema if she'd help you | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ugh, that sounds lousy; why give up indian citizenship? | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | will bblx01 | [14:00] |
| shrysr: | well idk – my cousinz in toronto… hez the reference i meant abt the 100k … he is a citizen and said it was necessary as india do not allow dual citizenship or something. Wd ofc need to evaluate for myself to kno exact reason. | [14:02] |
| asciilifeform: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001683 << shrysr , i'ma not ask again, but must ask, what are you stuck on in v.py ? it's a 400ln proggy, and i recall no case where anyone needed 2months+ of sweat to understand it | [14:08] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:06:52 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001672 this sounds quite interesting. afaik : sql and db fluency is quite important for data analyst/scientist whateva, and it sounds like text analysis is involved here, plus the html-like output, which are alll good. My general sense is that I was making progress in V, needed to brush up python at a point (i did do that well) – and i think that if I | [14:08] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: i wrote it, and am willing to answer whatever q re how it worx | [14:09] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: ftr it took barely 2days to write | [14:09] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: did you read ben's walkthrough ? it did not help ? | [14:11] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: yes, thank you and I do appreciate you asking again… and I apologise if I have not given you an explanation. Its really not that I am not taking you up on it -i wanted to understand hashing and get atleast of the major components behind security, and then move forward. i am in fact following ben's intro, and was at the point of vdiff, wherein i wanted to understand what SHA512 did to a | [14:19] |
| shrysr: | better level than intuition, and signatures, which is prolly the point where you shared the handbook. fwiw: the discussions in the past week are about exactly the fact that – I am torn in multiple directions and actually havent spent anymore close to 2 months sweating V alone, and I am trying to resolve other things so that I *can* focus much better on this. | [14:19] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: if you expect to 'understand hashing' the way you understand e.g. ohm's law, will be waiting a long time. hashing is not a physical law concept , but cryptological — i.e. authors of hash algoes ~believe~ that the operation where input turns into a corresponding garbage is difficult to reverse, but there is no proof aside from 'no one publicly showed how to reverse in N years'. | [14:21] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: hash algos are built with 2 objectives — 'difficult to find x when given H(x)' and 'difficult to find y, y != x, where H(y) == H(x)' . | [14:23] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: all traditional hash algos try to achieve this with a series of arithmetic operations, arranged in such a way that a small change in x (e.g. 1 bit) will produce large change in H(x) (i.e. affecting all or most of the bits of H(x).) | [14:26] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: my point is that if you are looking for a proof that 'is in fact difficult', will probably spend the rest of your life looking. there aint any such proof, for any of'em. | [14:26] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: similarly, in e.g. rsa, ~it is thought~ that to get primes p, q out of a large N == p * q , is expensive. there is, similarly, no known proof . | [14:28] |
| asciilifeform: | ( in fact sometimes it is very cheap, if the operator who made N was careless . ) | [14:29] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: in order to grasp 'v', it is necessary to first postulate that hash and rsa work . (~then~, later, will be very obvious what happens if they do not) | [14:30] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001756 publicly and believe and difficult > does that mean the reverse exists/known by some? | [14:31] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 14:06:15 asciilifeform: shrysr: if you expect to 'understand hashing' the way you understand e.g. ohm's law, will be waiting a long time. hashing is not a physical law concept , but cryptological — i.e. authors of hash algoes ~believe~ that the operation where input turns into a corresponding garbage is difficult to reverse, but there is no proof aside from 'no one publicly showed how to reverse in N years'. | [14:31] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: in the case of e.g. 'md5' hash, was found to be inexpensive to violate both conditions. | [14:32] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: authors of a hash algo make the promise that it is necessary to 'brute force', i.e. walk all possible inputs, from 0000…..0 to 111111….1 , in order to find y where H(y) == H(x) for given x. but historically often turns out that is not necessary to walk whole space. | [14:34] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: when this happens, the algo is declared 'broken' and someone proclaims a new one. | [14:35] |
| shrysr: | asciilifeform: what abt the impact of the broken algo? what happens after that? for eg i use SHA512 to encrypt a whole buncha things — if say I save a hashed message on archive.is > the broken algo means it can be decrypted correct? for eg this chan log, or some several-year communication was secret and encrypted as a daily log, and meant to remain so, but now it is not any longer? so I change to the new | [14:45] |
| shrysr: | algo henceforth, but what abt all the old stuff? | [14:45] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: hash is used in signing, rather than encrypting | [14:46] |
| asciilifeform: | when a hash algo is broken, it becomes possible for someone to bring that 'y' where H(y) == H(x) and say that you signed y as well as x . | [14:47] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: to see how hashes are used in gpg , see this passage in ffa ch.6 . | [14:47] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: in 'v', hashes are also used to indicate the predecessor state of a text . i.e. in this example, the machine is told that the previous MANIFEST.TXT must be such that hashed to 65b06852de….. and the new one being formed, via the given transform, will hash to 3f84fd0800….. . | [14:53] |
| asciilifeform: | a successor patch to this one, will expect , supposing that it alters MANIFEST.TXT, that the given one will be such that hashed to 3f84fd0800….. | [14:54] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the gpg signatures are used to verify that particular people (i.e. holders of particular gpg private keys) had in fact signed a particular patch . | [14:55] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: initially the original author of a patch, publishes it along with signature. afterwards, people who believe that they understand how it works, publish also signatures of their own. | [14:56] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: observe how in e.g. logotron vtree, there are signatures from several people for each patch. | [14:56] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: look at the patches, and observe what happens to the hashes. the successors ( which appear after '+++ …' ) become the predecessors ( i.e. appear after '— …' ) in the next patch in the series each time. | [14:58] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the current vtron uses diana_coman's implementation of 'keccak' hash algo, rather than sha512, for this. | [15:01] |
| asciilifeform: | ( while gpg uses sha512 in the signatures ) | [15:01] |
| shrysr: | ok. ima go through these links and revert. fwiw: the signing was also a part i was stuck… and never reached in the handbook. so the private key used in a sign says it is You, verified finally by your public key..to be from you.. ok….but i cant connect how is the File is 'signed' to be from you and verified? is it like a random part of the file is extracted and mashed with your private key? why do you | [15:02] |
| shrysr: | share a patch and separate signed file and why separate.. even if latter is out of convenience or i was told 'transport logistics' or so in #gnupg, but still – why not a single signed file? | [15:02] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: 'verify' is the operation illustrated in the ch6 link | [15:03] |
| asciilifeform: | via rsa, you find out that 'this hash was signed by the holder of the private key that goes with this-here public key' | [15:04] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: there is no 'mash', the operation is the modular exponentiation that is the 'rsa operation' . | [15:05] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: the signatures are separate files, rather than appended ('clearsigned' as sometimes is used for a single-author document) so as to enable multiple sigs of a particular patch . | [15:06] |
| asciilifeform: | (i.e. by different people) | [15:08] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: if it isn't clear — 'verification' is something ~you~ do when you possess a 1) signed document 2) its signature 3) the public key of the purported signer. | [15:09] |
| asciilifeform: | it is a mathematical operation that produces a 'true' or 'false' output. | [15:09] |
| asciilifeform: | in the case of 'v', the vtron does it, when it produces the working set (i.e. list of patches and their authors) when you run it. | [15:10] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: this is why it takes three directories — 'wot' (public keys) ; 'seals' (signatures of patches, by the owners of the privkeys that correspond to the pubkeys in 'wot') ; 'patches' (the patches themselves.) . | [15:13] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: when you do operations in 'v', the working set (of patches) is a subset of the contents of 'patches' for which there are valid signatures (in 'seals') by the owners (i.e. privkey holders) of the pubkeys in 'wot' . | [15:14] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: a '— false' -> '+++ hash….' transition is called a 'root'. all patch segments in a 'genesis' (the 1st patch in a project, that creates files from 'thin air') are 'roots'. | [15:24] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: when you 'press to a given patch', vtron starts with the roots in genesis, and tries to find a path , walking through the —/+++ pairs, to the hashes found on the +++ side of the patch being 'pressed to' . | [15:25] |
| asciilifeform: | if succeeds in finding this walk (with all the stones stepped on , being validly-signed patches) , you have a successful press. | [15:25] |
| shrysr: | i think i'm beginning to see a little bit. ….> so when diana also signs a patch you have released – it means she believes she has understood it, and endorses that the patch works as you claim? her sign is independent of your sign and separate. And since i trust you and diana (WoT) – i can be 'more' reassured to the extent of trust – that it does indeed work as claimed by whoever released patch? versus | [15:27] |
| shrysr: | say a single signature from you, which would still work for all who had you in their WoT? so for eg: if me/donkey-on-road signed a patch without reading a line of it? | [15:27] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: correct. if there are only signatures from 1 person, and then he goes mad and starts to sign garbage, or is killed and enemy takes his private key somehow — then the work is lost. | [15:28] |
| asciilifeform: | (i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the background hum of the universe, coad found on shithub, etc. someone could read it still and sign it, but few will find any desire to bother ) | [15:29] |
| asciilifeform: | a signature carries weight to the extent readers believe in the honesty and competence of the author , AND in his ability to keep the privkey secret from third parties | [15:30] |
| asciilifeform: | if one were to sign random garbage w/out reading or thinking, his signature will not be very interesting to anyone. | [15:30] |
| shrysr: | have to bbl >>> this is getting more interesting by min though.x01 | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: plz read ben's overview. | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | it covers all of this. | [15:31] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-09#1001680 << done. It is currently set to announce auctions in here once every 24 hours. Let me know if you'd like a different frequency | [20:39] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 14:16:30 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Sep-2019#1001675 – yes, please do. | [20:39] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-09 11:03:02 lobbes: you okay if I do? I'll just need to add it to the cron job | [20:39] |
| lobbes: | fyi, the "!Xlist" command will allow you to 'manually' list all active auctions at any time (including in PMs) | [20:40] |
#ossasepia Logs for 08 Sep 2019
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001520 << is this what you meant? http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-03#1001099 | [00:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:21:37 diana_coman: shrysr: re saving, honestly, re-read the part re bitcoin stash; no matter how small, it *still* beats the shit out of fiat-saving of any sort (and even without going into real inflation as opposed to claimed inflation) | [00:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 18:52:24 diana_coman: so if you want to save, simply buy any bitcents you can and keep your key+wallet safe, that's pretty much it; and ftr if "no money for any bitcents", your best bet is probably playing eulora anyway. | [00:15] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001505 – this is actually the rule rather than the exception by now. | [08:43] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:10:51 shrysr: probably worth mentioning – the few 'humans' are hourly wage laborers i worked with during first 5 months. SOme of them even business owners in the past… well over 40-50 years of age n so on and certainly bright even without comparing to other local (black) orcs. I'd actually be happy working with em you know.. like i said – i worked into their good books and they are almost the only sane convo i get.. | [08:43] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001540 – note that *their* feelings /mortifications on whatever matter are entirely theirs, not yours! you can try to help them process perhaps if you must, but that comes, naturally, afterwards and it's entirely your choice anyway, not an obligation. | [08:48] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 21:29:21 lobbes: Sure I know that some of my family would be "mortified" to hear me call my late father a "coward". But from my eye, that just tells me that they aren't really vested in my health after all; it "weeds out the unworthy" as cold as that may sound. | [08:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001541 – the main point is that sharing brings only benefits for you, although it seems counterintuitive, I know; the main perceived "downsides" are all and entirely to do in fact with *other people's shortcomings* and absolutely nothing to do with the one who tells the truth (sure, if you don't tell the truth then and only then, you're shooting yourself in the foot) | [08:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 21:29:34 lobbes: Likewise, I felt like I perhaps shared *too* much even after my post on exploring the bdsm lifestyle (to even the audience of tmsr lol). But as time has passed I know that I have these things to reflect on for my OWN benefit if anything. But again, I can only offer my own perspective here; I'm not your teacher after-all, just another student if anything | [08:52] |
| diana_coman: | and specifically, the best you let yourself known, the more (and in a more specific/better fitted way) you can be helped by those able and willing to do so; onth idiots will yapp anyway and "form opinions" (out of whatever shit they happen to have heard most recently) but they and such "opinions" *don't matter at all*. | [08:55] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001548 – pain is mostly a signal; a bit like smoke is the sign of a fire; not much sense in attacking pain, just like there isn't much sense in attacking smoke, is there? | [08:58] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 22:34:04 shrysr: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/on-relationships-or-how-pretense-kills/#selection-387.362-387.465 hehe i used to think of it as a strength. It helped me separate the pain and put it in front of me to attack.. or to forget and work… more frequently the latter. however my concl is that it can easily become unproductive overall if not 'controlled' in a very strict manner….. not that I've followed said | [08:58] |
| diana_coman: | you can ride the pain, you can ignore the pain, you can follow or back away from the pain; attacking it though…how does that even work? | [08:59] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001553 – aha, arbitrary shape deformation is one tool for "sculpting" 3D shapes (hence stuff like characters or monsters in a game for instance), indeed; the question for you here is whether this is something that really speaks to you (because if it is and you are willing to work it properly, there's a good opportunity with eulora right there) | [09:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 22:45:12 shrysr: the closest i guess i came to graphics was with my masters thesis… using a software called sculptor – they used something called arbitrary shape deformation (ASD) and NURBS to deform geometries i.e meshes and create quick variations of geometry instead of completely remeshing for each change. i used to find meshing very challenging…kindda hated that part of the whole process, then slowly became | [09:01] |
| diana_coman: | above I don't mean just specifically sculpting or shape deformation; I mean graphics overall, of which sculpting is a very tiny part. | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001557 – ok; post it when you have anything. | [09:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 23:21:25 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001503 efforts have started in this direction. I have listed companies nearby and am trying to build a composite of profiles they seek and align my shit to theirs. digging up contacts too. | [09:03] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 13:48:34 diana_coman: shrysr: I suppose you should at the very least take one weekend off and go talk to people in calgary or whatever the bigger closest town was. | [09:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001559 – the list doesn't quite fit the "lotsa" at the beginning, lol. | [09:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 23:26:43 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001373 lotsa things… beyond insects and creepy crawlies… I think dying without having done any meaningful work. Of late it has been shifting to doing something in time for my parents to see and feel happy about. not that they arent…in general…(except my job here ofc, based on my own ranting)… but aligned with my own definition of meaningful. | [09:03] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:04:48 diana_coman: shrysr: so…. what scares you most? :D | [09:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001563 – eurgh @ google adwords; I suppose it's still the naive approach but don't fall for it, ffs; in the best interpretation I can give to your statement, you mean you are looking for a source of (semi-)passive income; nothing wrong with that but you know, passive is when you are old and can't be active anymore, lolz. | [09:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 23:43:25 shrysr: i always used to think that a 'concept' of google's adwords — was nice as in – it earned revenue, without much manual meddling on their partiirc it was a good portion of revenue though dwindling of late. ofc i hate the ads, but essentially some kindda engine that I cd build that makes money… and the building would the labor of love / intelligence… and the money earned shd atleast be enough for decent | [09:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001564 – uhm, there isn't really anything "like eulora" unless you look extremely superficially at it; the… main (let's call it this though it's "main" from one perspective and then there are others and…), difference is that eulora actually has a real economy (as in really, nothing is "created" out of thin air and *everything* – including quests for instance – is/can be made by player | [09:11] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 23:43:27 shrysr: pocket money (eventually). I guess eulora does that? I've played games like age of empires and sim city – but here the difference is that it is based on bitcoin? | [09:11] |
| diana_coman: | is/can be made by players not by "the game". | [09:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there's a LOT to read and figure out on eulora and I fully intend to help you there but atm you have lots of other shit to attend to, so focus on that first. | [09:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-08#1001565 – and http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001473 with its clear calculation there + linked piece aka http://trilema.com/2017/the-universal-plan-for-wealth/ | [09:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-08 00:15:31 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001520 << is this what you meant? http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-03#1001099 | [09:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 04:10:15 diana_coman: shrysr: re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001274 you should read this thread : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934487 | [09:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:21:37 diana_coman: shrysr: re saving, honestly, re-read the part re bitcoin stash; no matter how small, it *still* beats the shit out of fiat-saving of any sort (and even without going into real inflation as opposed to claimed inflation) | [09:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 18:52:24 diana_coman: so if you want to save, simply buy any bitcents you can and keep your key+wallet safe, that's pretty much it; and ftr if "no money for any bitcents", your best bet is probably playing eulora anyway. | [09:15] |
| diana_coman: | oh boy, this chain is prolly the record by now, 4 lines neatly divided between 2 bots. | [09:16] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: "I | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | would not like any of them to think" -> why? | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | whenever you find something "I would not like…", the route deeper is to ask: why? | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter when "I would very much like…" | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | a good placed "why" does wonders too. | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I'm not sure exactly what is the difference you make between "published per se" and available at a link on your blog. | [09:31] |
| diana_coman: | I'm not saying that you should necessarily put it as a post, no; just point out that the difference you seem to make is… not much of a difference really. | [09:32] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw "coward" does not apply to the situation you describe there; it's simply that you obviously (and painfully at the time, I'm sure, but *still*) had way too much sense to do that. | [09:35] |
| diana_coman: | to fully qualify it: too much sense to do it for *that* specific reason. | [09:35] |
| diana_coman: | re definitions there, I know those you refer to but I don't think they are worth much. | [09:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ftr, what you call "demons" in 8th grade sound more like… teenaged, intelligent, naive, inexperienced and fully male, what. | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | "for no mistake on my part" – you mean there in fact "for nothing that I would admit/consider/ever thought of as a mistake on my part"; I know very well what you mean (I didn't do them any harm/did not get in their way/similar) but at the very least you miscalculated/failed to evaluate correctly the people you lived among (or the importance of paying attention to them too, not only to your studies). | [09:59] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Sep-2019#1001575 attacking – i guess was a blanket term for riding, follow, back. In that case it was more abt following, i.e analysing. Almost all the time, getting stoned seemed to kindda stop the negative emotions from bubbling over so focus shifting to thinking abt the nature of the pain. Attack in the sense – it had to be vanquished without a trace, from the | [10:01] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-08 08:58:21 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001548 – pain is mostly a signal; a bit like smoke is the sign of a fire; not much sense in attacking pain, just like there isn't much sense in attacking smoke, is there? | [10:01] |
| shrysr: | roots, instead of saying myea, she was a bitch and thats what they do, i was good …. i felt there were many mistakes I made.. there had to be signs i missed/ignored/misinterpreted. | [10:01] |
| shrysr: | i felt – and knew. | [10:02] |
| diana_coman: | most probably there were, yes; and even more likely, you were too inexperienced (possibly she was too) to figure out what she actually needed | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | "It is not to be inferred that it is a land of heathen idiots" – no danger of such "inferrence" at all; but do note that there's no reason you should care about "such inference" really. | [10:04] |
| diana_coman: | and fwiw, I hope you did get to listen to as many stories as your father would tell you. | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw, the account is actually quite cool in many ways, I hope you realise that. | [10:06] |
| shrysr: | oh yeah! i guess they were a lot more ruthless back then or somethin. His uni was wayyy down south. premier, top 3 in india whatever… i have envied his friends so many times. intelligent if not brilliant folx… all having almost no money. its like they were all a different class altogether. | [10:07] |
| shrysr: | the nature of the ragging was different…. down south – they'd screw northies. reverse of what i experienced basically. general difference was that he / we are from the south, so i guess he was kindda on the other side and not really on the receiving end. | [10:09] |
| diana_coman: | they… were a different class; as in: a different generation and it matters. | [10:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: basically in the whole account, the only problems are that you have terribly poor references (esp literary, wtf didn't they ever teach you any literature?) | [10:15] |
| diana_coman: | and the idealism (though it's kind of a given for most teenagers, so pretty much expected) | [10:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: "I'm not sure any of the above helps" – you answer that one too; look back to all the times you "opened up"/"shared too much" in here and tell me: did it do you harm? did it do nothing at all? did it help? | [10:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr! | [10:52] |
| shrysr: | re: demons. I call them so because unlike my dad – i guess i *had*/was provided everything i needed to study and 'be a good boy'.. trying something was even fine – but plunging into drugs full time? heroin and coke? selling ! Sure i have not tried a branch of them like lsd, party drugs .. today i'm not really interested. lol a few grams be different from kilograms! I mean – i guess the only parts my | [10:52] |
| shrysr: | parents would be really mortified abt are the portions where i fucked my health …. they wd look at what they did wrong, and i think they did nothing wrong. My mom sometimes wonders aloud whether she made a mistake tearing me away from 'childhood' friends for those 2 years before i went to uni saying I was 'getting too much to handle' or showing weird signs of extreme violence and eat-your-brains. The | [10:52] |
| shrysr: | extent to which i 'let myself go' over the girl and then how i recovered… After some gentle probing and raging and stupid reactions from me – my mom said she wd not bring up the girl until i felt comfortable to talk abt it. subsequently, on a walk with mom – i burst out with incredible rage at an asshole who was spitting on the road…Unfortunately I'm not able to rem what she told me, but i do rem – | [10:52] |
| shrysr: | there was an instant 180 flip.. atleast the anger suddenly vanished enitrely. The anger started resurfacing in a different form when i entered slavery about 4 months after that incident. everything else is pretty much openly discussed and shared, including critique of faults. I guess the truth is i think I betrayed their trust and don't like my answers as to why. | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the past is to learn from, not to hide/avoid really; if you need to, apologize to them/make amends as needed (and certainly tell them clearly that it's nothing to do with what they did or didn't do) but *move on*; and I mean this esp with respect to reference point: literally, for as long as you maintain as reference point your parents, you are not an adult. | [11:00] |
| shrysr: | though there are still some internal barriers that i'm working on w.r.t sharing and publishing – i dont think i shared too much and i dont feel embarassed sharing here, or rather i have come to trust in the last weeks that nobody here wd 'judge' in a … idk — the way others do without 'sense' for lack of a better word…stupidity/stubborn idiocy has a price, but being honest – does not have the | [11:03] |
| shrysr: | consequences of being branded. No, nothing here has harmed me. | [11:03] |
| shrysr: | it has helped. TBH: surprisingly at some points… not surprising at others. | [11:05] |
| diana_coman: | glad to hear you see it too; and good for you. | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | ftr the "judge" that you seem to refer to is more likely simply a "pattern-matching" or otherwise put the result of group "thinking", not any judging in any real sense. | [11:10] |
| shrysr: | yes. that fits what i had in my head much better. | [11:11] |
| shrysr: | re: literature… i dont think it was taught in the sense you mean in school. Definitely not taught in engg / uni. I dont really rem what was taught w.r.t english… nothing i recall as challenging. i pretty much used to read whatever was available… i rem there was a phase when i was reading a novel a day from the school library… probably somewhere around 3rd or 4th grade… nothing spectacular. i | [11:28] |
| shrysr: | guess hardy boys nancy drew goosebumps. for a long time it was only fiction. If you mean older stuff like tom sawyer, david copperfield , wind in the willows type – i've read these and a bunch more, but it was usually not any kind of target based reading. There was a period i roamed around with Kant's critique of pure reason – determined to finish it… never got beyond some pages. now that was fucking | [11:28] |
| shrysr: | hard .. in the sense – each line was very long + complex and i cd not read fast enough 'to be entertained'… i guess. as stupid as that sounds. | [11:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: aha; well, when you dig yourself out of the current hole of stuff to do, can always start addressing that part too, lol. | [11:36] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-08#1001605 lol. i know. its… less prominent… but there? semi published…lol. extending on from the portfolio of projects thingy – i know its a blog, and the benefit is to share – but if some 'recruiter' / orc whatever wants to look me up (and i post this as my website or whatever) – its unlikely to help me cause if they read that stuff is it? I presume | [11:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-08 09:15:45 diana_coman: shrysr: I'm not sure exactly what is the difference you make between "published per se" and available at a link on your blog. | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | all they'd want to see is evidence of skills… reports/ pretty pictures / code / buncha articles on 'dataa scieeence' perhaps. Shd i have a separate setup for this purpose alone? cd easily continue my old github site…. | [11:54] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: to "employers" you can give your github repo, sure; it prolly even ticks some of their checklist points too; the only part that is still unclear is if it's all that worth to tick their points, that's about it. | [12:01] |
| shrysr: | hmm the general advice is : yes. atleast to break in. for eg: see david robinson's post at http://varianceexplained.org/r/start-blog/ hez quite cool actually. | [12:12] |
| shrysr: | well i hv never interacted with him…. cool based on the work i see and his general method of explaining things. | [12:13] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: if you think him cool, invite him here, what. | [12:13] |
| diana_coman: | and at the very least comment and interact with him. | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | eh, "chief data scientist at datacamp, an education company for teaching data science through interactive online courses"; basically he's applying the funnel-model to get students, there isn't much more that stands out there. | [12:18] |
| shrysr: | well datacamp is like that for sure… but atleast that post doesnt have any marketing content | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | top of the funnel, yeah; but sure, take what you find useful and use it; the obs was re "cool" – I don't see much cool there. | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, since it's Sunday today: mind jotting down and publishing the updated list of tasks for this week? ie whatever tasks you have for finding the job + the task for the 15th and you're done. | [12:21] |
| shrysr: | yes massaa :P | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [12:24] |
| shrysr: | lol.. top of the funnel is nice… http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001333 is even better. | [12:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 15:40:08 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001323 – wait, do you mean it's been now a whole year of embracing that old shifty hag of data-something?? | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | heh; it is what it is, funnels and hags, yes. | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [12:39] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 17h 59m | [12:39] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [15:38] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 20h 58m | [15:38] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [17:25] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 22h 45m | [17:25] |
#ossasepia Logs for 07 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:06] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 5d 8h 37m | [03:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001274 you should read this thread : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934487 | [04:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 12:26:16 shrysr: well i see that. But i am confused abt one thing > why do ppl in chan have jobs for bread ? | [04:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 03:01:19 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934254 << i think there's so much shame / self-loathing necessarily (and, for that matter, correctly) naturally associated by the mind with leaving here, i dinf it unsurprising dudes leave quietly. | [04:10] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 21:30:29 asciilifeform: i wonder whether in fact died. left without any goodbye — and his www is frozen exactly as it was | [04:10] |
| diana_coman: | re answers owed/pending questions do note that everything with a "?" is by definition a question, yes? You don't get to decide silently and on your own that some are and some aren't questions, just like that. If anything, there possibly are some sentences without "?" and STILL questions for you, that's the mindset when re-reading. | [04:12] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001474 I agree with the explanation of P/e/W/d in the thread. actually aware of 'P' being the driving factor – and my efforts are typically to reduce P to the extent possible below e… not only for 'team', but mostly driven for myself so as to make time for other interesting things both relatd to and non-related to mind (right from within mine hours and | [11:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 03:54:41 diana_coman: shrysr: re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001274 you should read this thread : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934487 | [11:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 12:26:16 shrysr: well i see that. But i am confused abt one thing > why do ppl in chan have jobs for bread ? | [11:54] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 03:01:19 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934254 << i think there's so much shame / self-loathing necessarily (and, for that matter, correctly) naturally associated by the mind with leaving here, i dinf it unsurprising dudes leave quietly. | [11:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 21:30:29 asciilifeform: i wonder whether in fact died. left without any goodbye — and his www is frozen exactly as it was | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | extending outside). Ofc there are several cases it is not possible. I've particularly steered clear of such 'profiles' and work… to the extent identified by talking to ppl and personal up-front observation of others in said work + similar evaluations of other work. In fact – progression in current field – atleast in Canada will take me exactly towards such profiles – which is why I am avoiding the | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | 'closest point' or apparently 'easiest' option of 'similar' salt-mine shfit. This is in response to blindspot in current field. Re: blindspots of field switch – yes. entirely possible. However – the general nature of 'data science' is still such that there are several indications it can be rectified if so, while still solving problems as | [11:54] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 12:49:17 diana_coman: given what you said above re 100k/year and what you think it means, I suggest you also focus on the tradeoffs for every "gain" you see, because that part seems to be a total blindspot for you so far. | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | described in the post of choosing data science. In addition – just as important (today) – is it is likely every skill i learn in 'data analytics/science' will still be useful when i reach eulora. | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | *non-related to salt-mine* | [11:57] |
| shrysr: | When i say progression in similar-to-current mine takes me in direction of exponentially increasing P – i mean that atleast in India – there were options to avoid that path and still progress. Here – I don't see those options. It is what it is. | [12:21] |
| shrysr: | also – i can see what is meant by shame and self-loathing. I view this as a problem to solve which is why i'm still here and didn't silently exit..(it did in fact occur to me and was tempting) – fwiw it was *immediately* clear that wd be a black orc act *only* considering what I've received in a short space of 2 months (compared to years of being alive). Perhaps I am also somewhat fortunate : i'm not in | [12:55] |
| shrysr: | any financial debt, and have no family to support and always had a lot of 'nervous' 'energy' to give to 'optimising decisons' rather than getting tired of thinking. That being said – the situation at current mine is likely worse than i describe. I have a growing suspicion that extra drive/support is being provided to my project so that they can promptly fire me when it reaches a slightly better or | [12:55] |
| shrysr: | functional stage. After all i did them the favor of finding a solution costing them 1000$/year and am (close to) implementing it to resolve a large range of their time+effort issues (which they seem to have realised partially) and they pay me 50 X ERP cost. which fwiw is still atleast 30\% (conservative estimate) less than the 'market rate'. not insensible business decision, especially when business is low. | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that sounds like "more urgent", not necessarily "worse", ahem. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001489 – in what sense "tempting"? as in "easy route to take" or how? | [13:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 12:55:43 shrysr: also – i can see what is meant by shame and self-loathing. I view this as a problem to solve which is why i'm still here and didn't silently exit..(it did in fact occur to me and was tempting) – fwiw it was *immediately* clear that wd be a black orc act *only* considering what I've received in a short space of 2 months (compared to years of being alive). Perhaps I am also somewhat fortunate : i'm not in | [13:46] |
| shrysr: | yea easy route to take… disappear and not take the effort to vocalize / communicate. and yea, urgent is more appropriate. Worse was meant that in most 'decent' companies – they wd value the human being atleast a little better, i.e more aspects than usual against me here. not only am i 'more educated'/ 'sophisticated'/ 'never gave a fuck abt farming / fishing /hunting' but i have other characteristics | [13:55] |
| shrysr: | like not yapping all day like these idiots seem to do. I believe there are similarities in the USA…for eg when i talk to boss or others – i shd start with how difficult it was to get up and brush my teeth etc etc etc to current point in time. Perhaps include some bits from last week or last year. | [13:55] |
| diana_coman: | well, good for you on not taking the easy route. | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | as to the environment, the trouble is that moving to the bigger town is not all that likely to change people all that substantially | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | ie if you are living among one specific type of orcs, it'll still be among that type of orcs with all their characteristics. | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what's actually your status re papers anyway? do you have canadian and/or uk citizenship or only visa or what? | [14:02] |
| shrysr: | well if you have a real tmsr island – i'll pack up and migrate wherever it is! Actually, i've been told by the proper humans here, that this town in particular contains the worst 'breed of ppl' bordering on inbred bullshit.. and generally is *not* this…. well crazy/irrational whateva for lack of better word. | [14:02] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I suppose you should at the very least take one weekend off and go talk to people in calgary or whatever the bigger closest town was. | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: tmsr "island" as you call it is wherever tmsr people are, by definition, no? | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | or what, if it's not in the middle of the sea with all attendant problems then it doesn't count? need a bit more penance again? | [14:06] |
| shrysr: | probably worth mentioning – the few 'humans' are hourly wage laborers i worked with during first 5 months. SOme of them even business owners in the past… well over 40-50 years of age n so on and certainly bright even without comparing to other local (black) orcs. I'd actually be happy working with em you know.. like i said – i worked into their good books and they are almost the only sane convo i get.. | [14:10] |
| shrysr: | .. they infact 'get' signifcantly more than the owners! its a wonderful 'specimen' of a company as such… even my dad admits (not too frequently so as to not depress me entirely). I rem at first and 2nd salt-mine i used to read the Harvard Business Review HBR magazine and used to reflect – how is it that with all this collective 'wisdom' – almost nothing is done the way they describe (even by educated | [14:10] |
| shrysr: | high and mighty MBA folx) and yet these companies are *not* 'dying'. | [14:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: generally because they are dead already; but it's probably a long way for that to fully make sense to you atm. | [14:12] |
| diana_coman: | as to MBA "high and mighty" lololol. | [14:12] |
| shrysr: | my status is that of 'permanent resident'….as good as citizen without voting or secret government security clearance type jobs or something… can start my business or work for anybody anywhere. ha! i'm willing to undertake penance for tmsr i guess… i've done so for far less as you've seen.. sometimes i wonder if it was a perverse childish pleasure to rebel and fight. The 'approach' in the movie 'fight | [14:18] |
| shrysr: | club' was actually appealing to me. In a way – i hope you know that talking itself is a kind of penance for me. its like the words have to be changed till the meaning is close enough before i hit enter or open my mouth and somedays… they dont get as close as 'desired'. I guess its become slightly better as i've grown. It wasnt always like this i'm told…. as a child it seemed i wd talk to anybody on the | [14:18] |
| shrysr: | street and i'm told at one point i 'changed'…. | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you yourself remember the "change" at all? (but yes, it's very possible and even likely, there are stages of development really) | [14:19] |
| shrysr: | i have mostly disgust for MBA folx as such…. which has increased as experience increased. the only benefit i see is that it seems to pay a lot more right from the start… also costs a lot to get it, but if you can scrape through that – you atleast start saving a lot right from the start. | [14:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: sure, it's basically "the more you prove that you are invested in our nonsense ie you are "one of us", the more fodder we distribute to you" | [14:22] |
| diana_coman: | but the cost of being more and more "one of them" is being less of yourself… | [14:23] |
| diana_coman: | re talking, if it's any help, I probably get it more than you think (I still remember full months when I barely spoke a few words per day); but for this very reason I can tell you now that you should still talk. | [14:34] |
| shrysr: | i believe there were stages… i also believe i've identified atleast some critical points. lol… i dont know if you really wanna hear all that. | [14:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re saving, honestly, re-read the part re bitcoin stash; no matter how small, it *still* beats the shit out of fiat-saving of any sort (and even without going into real inflation as opposed to claimed inflation) | [14:37] |
| shrysr: | fiat ? | [14:37] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: atm I need to go but I'll read | [14:38] |
| shrysr: | re: hearing all that.. i donno. i guess its a part of submission. i'm not embarassed per se…. but it seems like a lot to say. | [14:38] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: fiat is short for "fiat currency" aka government (central authority) backed; in practical terms, just about any currency you know, except bitcoin | [14:40] |
| diana_coman: | will bblx01 | [14:40] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001522 – how/what do you mean by "a lot to say"? | [17:07] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:38:43 shrysr: re: hearing all that.. i donno. i guess its a part of submission. i'm not embarassed per se…. but it seems like a lot to say. | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that "meshing" from CFD sounds precisely part of "computer graphics" modelling. | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | and customising via python scripting …Blender! basically if you change a few words in there, you'd be talking about blender and graphics for computer games instead of cfd. | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | except you don't need computer clusters really, ha; basically you have all the advantages but few (if any) of the downsides; note that the strict specialisation (compartmentalization as you call it) is more of a modern-day disease than specific to cfd eng domain as such. | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | re money /starter jobs it's true though that graphics is unlikely to work. | [17:55] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [18:41] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 0m | [18:41] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [18:44] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 4m | [18:44] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001526 << see : http://s.ragavan.co/demons.txt | [21:06] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 16:52:22 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Sep-2019#1001522 – how/what do you mean by "a lot to say"? | [21:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 14:38:43 shrysr: re: hearing all that.. i donno. i guess its a part of submission. i'm not embarassed per se…. but it seems like a lot to say. | [21:06] |
| lobbes: | >> the others tend to misunderstand or 'judge' – and so this is not a blog post, and will not be published per se. | [21:29] |
| lobbes: | I get this reasoning (yes, they do misunderstand and judge) and it isn't my place to tell you what to do, but I recently "let go" of such fears and I must say it is liberating/empowering. | [21:29] |
| lobbes: | Sure I know that some of my family would be "mortified" to hear me call my late father a "coward". But from my eye, that just tells me that they aren't really vested in my health after all; it "weeds out the unworthy" as cold as that may sound. | [21:29] |
| lobbes: | Likewise, I felt like I perhaps shared *too* much even after my post on exploring the bdsm lifestyle (to even the audience of tmsr lol). But as time has passed I know that I have these things to reflect on for my OWN benefit if anything. But again, I can only offer my own perspective here; I'm not your teacher after-all, just another student if anything | [21:29] |
| shrysr: | lobbes: bdsm lifestyle! I thought that was kindda restricted to during sex? eg of lifestyle ?? | [22:00] |
| lobbes: | lol, well I should disclaim that I am a mega-n00b on THAT subject as well, but it is a very layered field of study indeed. Sure, many (most perhaps) who engage in such activities limit it to just sex. Still, others live it 24/7. | [22:10] |
| lobbes: | The best e.g. I could give re: the lifestyle would be mircea_popescu himself. When I first started reading the logs in 2014, I subscribed to the theory that he MUST be a "bourbaki" of sorts, because how else could one man seemingly be reading, processing, talking in seemingly a 100 places at once. | [22:11] |
| lobbes: | Over time I realized that this wasn't too far from the truth, except it was one man and his harem of highly intelligent and well-selected slavegirls. Go figure! | [22:11] |
| lobbes: | But anyway, that is a huge rabbit hole on its own. I dun wanna distract you too much here lol | [22:11] |
| shrysr: | lol | [22:11] |
| shrysr: | http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/on-relationships-or-how-pretense-kills/#selection-387.362-387.465 hehe i used to think of it as a strength. It helped me separate the pain and put it in front of me to attack.. or to forget and work… more frequently the latter. however my concl is that it can easily become unproductive overall if not 'controlled' in a very strict manner….. not that I've followed said | [22:34] |
| shrysr: | statement maself. | [22:34] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001528 << yes. i believe they are quite similar in concept. I believe blender or some other softwares were used for the animation purpose of CFD…iirc. the in built animation in CFD softwares used to suck. I recall being intimidated by software like photoshop and blender… never got around that. Corel Draw was probably more intuitive but I was never an | [22:40] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 17:30:35 diana_coman: shrysr: that "meshing" from CFD sounds precisely part of "computer graphics" modelling. | [22:40] |
| shrysr: | expert in that stuff. I did know basic animation using flash a long time ago in school i guess. lol. | [22:40] |
| shrysr: | the closest i guess i came to graphics was with my masters thesis… using a software called sculptor – they used something called arbitrary shape deformation (ASD) and NURBS to deform geometries i.e meshes and create quick variations of geometry instead of completely remeshing for each change. i used to find meshing very challenging…kindda hated that part of the whole process, then slowly became | [22:45] |
| shrysr: | somewhat decent with it with help. i;d blame the tools… but i know it was me. | [22:45] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001504 yes. ok! :D | [23:19] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 13:50:21 diana_coman: shrysr: tmsr "island" as you call it is wherever tmsr people are, by definition, no? | [23:19] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-07#1001503 efforts have started in this direction. I have listed companies nearby and am trying to build a composite of profiles they seek and align my shit to theirs. digging up contacts too. | [23:21] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-07 13:48:34 diana_coman: shrysr: I suppose you should at the very least take one weekend off and go talk to people in calgary or whatever the bigger closest town was. | [23:21] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001373 lotsa things… beyond insects and creepy crawlies… I think dying without having done any meaningful work. Of late it has been shifting to doing something in time for my parents to see and feel happy about. not that they arent…in general…(except my job here ofc, based on my own ranting)… but aligned with my own definition of meaningful. | [23:26] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:04:48 diana_coman: shrysr: so…. what scares you most? :D | [23:26] |
| shrysr: | Maybe most afraid of running out of time to fix the repurcussions of errors. | [23:26] |
| shrysr: | Not that i have a clear definition of meaningful. I guess make stuff that others can use… good original work. I have a vague idea that eulora is quite aligned to this in a better way than I had originally imagined (which was more like contributing to open source code… packages…and the like) | [23:36] |
| shrysr: | i always used to think that a 'concept' of google's adwords — was nice as in – it earned revenue, without much manual meddling on their partiirc it was a good portion of revenue though dwindling of late. ofc i hate the ads, but essentially some kindda engine that I cd build that makes money… and the building would the labor of love / intelligence… and the money earned shd atleast be enough for decent | [23:43] |
| shrysr: | pocket money (eventually). I guess eulora does that? I've played games like age of empires and sim city – but here the difference is that it is based on bitcoin? | [23:43] |
#ossasepia Logs for 06 Sep 2019
| lobbes: | re: not asking for help. I fell into this trap at the start of my 'professional' career, and slowly have been learning the folly of this method throughout the entire scope of my life (be it saltmines, tmsr, sex life, buying fruit, what-have-you) | [01:01] |
| lobbes: | there's a difference between someone who is incapable of doing something for themselves, and someone who asks for help | [01:01] |
| lobbes: | Also, of course, it matters *who* you are asking for help from. And how you reason and structure your questions (to go back to diana_coman's "fertile soil" point). Asking smartly, I guess, with specifics. | [01:01] |
| lobbes: | more importantly, through communication in this way you get to expose your true self through the critical eye of others (hopefully human others, and not orcs, yes) | [01:02] |
| lobbes: | which only makes you… stronger on your own! | [01:04] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1000981 << I meant to come back and answer this, but diana_coman put it perfectly imo :) | [01:12] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-09-02 13:26:29 diana_coman: that's pretty much what lobbes was saying re "excel jokey" http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Aug-2019#1000828 | [01:12] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-29 23:32:46 lobbes: very glad to be free of that work. It was mentally stimulating, but my job now as an "excel jockey" consumes a good \% less of my time | [01:12] |
| lobbes: | In other words, my current saltmine work gives me ~0 intellectual stimulation nor meaning in my life, but more importantly I *do not expect* it to | [01:12] |
| lobbes: | Roughly all of my meaning and intellectual stimulation right now comes from my tmsr work (and the +ev effects that my interaction with actual humans has had on my personal life as well) | [01:12] |
| lobbes: | Sure, I tolerate my saltmine work just fine and it pays my bills to my satisfaction, but more importantly it also does not suck too much of my precious time. Time that'd I'd rather allocate toward activities I *do* expect value and meaning from | [01:22] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [03:48] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 4d 9h 19m | [03:48] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001375 – why are you uncomfortable with being right? | [03:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:52:48 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001366 yea..i know what you mean, abt my own mishandling and agree. i guess it is a thin line for me. I've been uncomfortably right many times, though I do force myself to think i'm wrong and have no right to classify orcs/ppl like this or dont even know enough to do so accurately anyway… i guess I usually test the waters or learn enough simply by | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | and you absolutely have *the obligation* to classify what you meet as best you can! | [03:51] |
| diana_coman: | the idea that you "shouldn't classify" is precisely http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-07-20#999277 | [03:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-07-20 15:49:00 diana_coman: basically you are not cutting off your dick, just shaving/trimming bits off, lol |
[03:52] |
| diana_coman: | sure, you'd better get it right, or else; absolutely. | [03:53] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001379 – yes, you need to learn to talk to ~everyone and anyone, certainly; not in the same way, nor "without classifying" or any other such nonsense (quite on the contrary), but talk you must. | [03:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:52:54 shrysr: was dealing with customers directly..lol. One 'less important reason' – i got out of R&D (1st salt mine) so that I wd also force myself to *interact* on a much bigger scale. The good thing is that i recognise the weakness… the bad thing is that the more i 'learn abt myself' or any subject – the more alienated i seem to get from most. like sort of improving – but still slipping. | [03:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001381 – lmao; are you asking me to set you some proper penance here? | [03:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:29 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001372 i agree with the definition or distinction – but i guess I viewed it also as a penance of sorts. tougher in a holistic sense — more disciplined, more self-reliant, physically more fit (eat enemies brains), to 'fully feel the pain' and thus the value of getting a car for eg….and i did have to stop and get a car – it was freakin cold lol – more | [03:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001383 – that is *also* something one can learn! talking of "getting tough" and growin' and all that. | [03:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:31 shrysr: importantly – i cdnt walk on the ice. | [03:57] |
| diana_coman: | but yeah, in order to learn how to walk on ice you needed to …ask someone able to teach you or at least show you | [03:59] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001396 – yes, slavery is best cure for vanity among other ills though if you actually go for that, go for better masters than the accidental provincial manager. | [04:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 20:35:54 shrysr: started slavery. I've generally been able to detect it (atleast in recent years) and course correct. Some brusque statements/or silence itself is mistaken for vanity/arrogance by orcs – however i think i dont ask for help – not because i consider myself superior – the focus is more about 'becoming' capable to handle everything thrown at me without crying for help… there are situations when its absolutely | [04:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001397 – until you prove you are actually able to expose the full tree of your "thinking" and follow it *both ways* without jumps, you can't claim or rely on your "thinking"; and in this sort of situations specifically, man is *made* to lie to himself. | [04:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 20:35:56 shrysr: clear help is needed. But in many other situations it goes – if I can do it maself taking some extra effort/stress whatever – then I shd. and there are small lateral benefits/learning usually in doing so. And then I also get to avoid social interaction in the process too.. lol. My thinking is that it is not vanity… | [04:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Sep-2019#1001400 – this for sure and even more importantly realising that the onus is on yourself to make sense of the answer(s) given as they are effectively knowledge gifted; specifically, if you don't understand/it doesn't make sense, you may ask yes but *after* you tried and failed to integrate the new knowledge | [04:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 01:01:38 lobbes: Also, of course, it matters *who* you are asking for help from. And how you reason and structure your questions (to go back to diana_coman's "fertile soil" point). Asking smartly, I guess, with specifics. | [04:10] |
| diana_coman: | ie the question starts at the very least with exposing what /how you tried to make sense of the answer; and implicitly at least – depending on the case, explicitly might be *needed* – an admission of your own failure to make sense of it | [04:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw, the above is the spelled-out explanation of http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001199 | [04:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 15:44:19 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001197 – ftr note that you are never in a position to "spare" what someone who says when they have proven before to such degree that they know what they are talking about; that is just plain silly. | [04:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there are already lots of questions I asked you in those logs and you never answered; that adds a pile of owed answers to your 15th Sept deadline; and it's a hard deadline, let me make that as clear as ..the ice you couldn't walk on, I suppose. | [04:19] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [09:28] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 4d 14h 59m | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | !e uptime | [09:28] |
| ericbot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 5h 49m | [09:28] |
| diana_coman: | hm, lobbes does ^ seem correct to you? | [09:29] |
| lobbes: | diana_coman: I was about to say 'yes' until I looked up in my chat buffer and realized my bot had disconnected O_o. Will have to investigate later tonight when I get home | [10:58] |
| lobbes: | ty for the heads up | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | np | [11:14] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001421 i believe the unanswered Q of yesterday was how i reached the choice of data science, and whether i've been at it for 1+ years already. well that prompted another 'essay' – need to include some more details to finish doing that right now. | [11:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 03:42:12 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001383 – that is *also* something one can learn! talking of "getting tough" and growin' and all that. | [11:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 19:08:31 shrysr: importantly – i cdnt walk on the ice. | [11:15] |
| shrysr: | lol wrong link. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001433 | [11:17] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 04:03:32 diana_coman: shrysr: there are already lots of questions I asked you in those logs and you never answered; that adds a pile of owed answers to your 15th Sept deadline; and it's a hard deadline, let me make that as clear as ..the ice you couldn't walk on, I suppose. | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | morning shrysr ; plenty of time still until 15th sept; but in the spirit of http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Sep-2019#1001428 I would actually go through the logs if I were you… | [11:19] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 04:10:26 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Sep-2019#1001400 – this for sure and even more importantly realising that the onus is on yourself to make sense of the answer(s) given as they are effectively knowledge gifted; specifically, if you don't understand/it doesn't make sense, you may ask yes but *after* you tried and failed to integrate the new knowledge | [11:19] |
| shrysr: | btw: while i get the idea of asking somebody to teach me to walk on ice: there were other assessments in that particular case – cars were often slipping around… it wd be a tragedy to get plowed into while learning to walk on the ice. the winds here really *blow*…i'd be grinning on the road walking my own footprints from prev journey trying to stay in a straight line but the risk outweighed the | [11:27] |
| shrysr: | pleasure. by then i was getting the sense I needed to get out – and i obv needed a car to get to interviews when that properly 'happened'. I had/have 2 pairs of jeans – cdnt balance them getting too dirty versus laundry frequency… my boots were worn.. overall – getting a car solved more problems. | [11:27] |
| diana_coman: | I'm sure it did, yes. | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | the point was not at all "could have solved it without a car", no; you tend to jump on the most obvious/what irks you and… miss or at least not mention at all the actual point. | [11:40] |
| diana_coman: | ftr (and in memory of an actual real teacher I once had): a tragedy is not what you think it is!! | [11:42] |
| diana_coman: | misfortune yes; end of game, yes; terrible accident, yes; tragedy however, no. | [11:44] |
| shrysr: | :D ok | [11:56] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Sep-2019#1001411 i believe out of false emotions and a confusion of 'morals/ethics'. i feel sorry for having exposed them in my mind… get wrongly get sucked into 'feeling' that knowing them is fine – however knowing them in order to get my shit done is manipulation… knowing them and not telling them i know is 'cheating' and lying | [12:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 03:50:47 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001375 – why are you uncomfortable with being right? | [12:05] |
| shrysr: | i knw its not my job to change them… what they are is what they are because of them, not me. but i 'feel' guilty… as in if somebody fucked me up on my flaws (its my fault) – but what if they told me / corrected me instead of fucking me up for their profit? sure i hopefully learn in the process – but there been a 'sense' that overall – manipulation and lying and etc just makes the world a worse place. | [12:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you realise you jump there from "being right" ie evaluating correctly to "lying" ? | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | overall it sounds like a lot of confusion for sure. | [12:30] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001399 yes… i need to get better at recognising the distinction. | [13:16] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 00:46:00 lobbes: there's a difference between someone who is incapable of doing something for themselves, and someone who asks for help | [13:16] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-06#1001459 yes. its not something i've resolved satisfactorily ever. even if i try to go by an 'evidence'/observation based assessment to be right..(and later evidence (results of a strategy) proves the 'theory' right in many cases).. i still disengage at some point due to the confusion whether i'm being 'bad'..or orcish. I don't mind being ruthless with | [13:38] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-06 12:11:45 diana_coman: shrysr: do you realise you jump there from "being right" ie evaluating correctly to "lying" ? | [13:38] |
| shrysr: | myself – but can i be ruthless in extracting what I need from ppl and not cause em any harm? Perhaps a balance of kindness is required?…then i guess i go overboard in balancing this, see-sawing between 'non-emotion' based approach and with emotions with a deluded sense of being a 'good d00d'. i.e i take it upon myself for a 'complex work around' and that has not resulted in distilled ground rules or | [13:38] |
| shrysr: | principles and hence the confusion is always there like a spore waiting to multiply. | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: sounds like an honest and quite clear account, so not a bad start to work with; fwiw it doesn't have to be that way, no. | [13:59] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: how can I make it – not be that way? | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there's a lot of learning but it starts with clarifying notions really; still, there is time for that and atm you have enough to do by the 15th really so I won't add to that pile. | [18:30] |
| shrysr: | http://s.ragavan.co/2019/09/how-did-i-choose-data-science/ to explain how it was 'found' and deemed suitable. | [19:17] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ^ this shd be more aligned with the 'want' as the earlier article was.. not. | [19:10] |
#ossasepia Logs for 05 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | no, it does not; re-read the question *as stated*. | [03:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ^ | [03:08] |
| diana_coman: | welcome ericbot | [05:39] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [10:50] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 3d 16h 21m | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | !e uptime | [10:50] |
| ericbot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 7h 11m | [10:50] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: so all the explanations I've given so far put together do not answer the question? | [11:25] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001117 << pls give me an example of 'actual things' other than 'job'? Do things refer to things like computer? Internet? Time? x12201 in bank account? | [11:56] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 19:23:41 diana_coman: and go for actual things, not "a data analyst job" | [11:56] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the question is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 ; what do you *think you need* so that you can be fully present in tmsr; as such, it's up to you to define the *what* but the point was to go for the root causes not for some particular/prepackaged "solutions" to them | [12:16] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 19:23:13 diana_coman: shrysr: ok, let's put it the other way around: *what* do you think you need first, before you can "(3) – is ALL i wanna do" ? | [12:16] |
| diana_coman: | e.g. when you say as above that you need 100k/year, that's just one particular solution you chose to something most likely "I want to be self-sufficient first" or similar | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | the task you've got is exactly to figure out those deeper wants of yours and as close to root as possible; hence the time too, because you'll need it and you'd better make good use of it too. | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | it's not the sort of thing that works well when "done" at the last minute. | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | if it helps, work perhaps backwards from those concrete things perhaps, just don't stop at them | [12:20] |
| shrysr: | yes the above helps. and no its not something that can be done last minute. | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: note also that http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001252 was a particularly poor answer because it didn't even look at being fully in tmsr, just at moving tmsr to 2nd position rather than 3rd or similar mis-reading. | [12:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:28:19 shrysr: I believe i need to make $ in the ballpark of 100k/year to do (3) all the time >> I'm ok with starting at say 55-70k to account for I'm 'switching' fields – it will be Loads easier to switch mine in same analytics area for higher pay later (if necessary). But it wont be a field change anymore after iniital entry. After init entry irrespective of money i secure – i don't see an issue in pursuing (3). There | [12:25] |
| shrysr: | well i see that. But i am confused abt one thing > why do ppl in chan have jobs for bread ? | [12:26] |
| shrysr: | as i see what you mean about 2nd position – but the answer was aimed at 2 directions … not 1st and 2nd ! | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: not all do; as to those who do, for specific answers you'd best ask each of them, no? for the obvious overall answer: because they haven't yet figured out a way to not to. | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | before asking, you'd better read their blogs/writings though as the smallest of courtesies | [12:29] |
| shrysr: | well – i'd be happy to ask each of em and go through blogs first – this is a part of my 'education' here. But the point is that those who do not have separate jobs for bread – went through a process to reach there. The others are at different points of 'a journey' is it not? | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I was just looking that lots of the answers are in #trilema's log too, even; but to your question: not in the sense that you seem to imply, because there isn't "a journey" that one follows along. | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | it's more to do with what/where they are internally, if you must put it in terms of "journey"; ie where on *their own journey* they are; e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001252 or http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/on-relationships-or-how-pretense-kills/ | [12:38] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 18:28:19 shrysr: I believe i need to make $ in the ballpark of 100k/year to do (3) all the time >> I'm ok with starting at say 55-70k to account for I'm 'switching' fields – it will be Loads easier to switch mine in same analytics area for higher pay later (if necessary). But it wont be a field change anymore after iniital entry. After init entry irrespective of money i secure – i don't see an issue in pursuing (3). There | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, wrong link | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | let's test lobbes's bot too; shrysr, log link above should be http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2018-12-12#1880348 | [12:38] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2018-12-12 14:31:02 Mocky: when I look deeply enough into my pockets I see hunger about 6 weeks away, and my phone getting shut off and so I look for the closest solution at hand | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | nice | [12:39] |
| shrysr: | well i dont mean a fixed path set by Lord Trilema / Diana – i mean that as each individual – they 'need' to figure out the shit in their heads/lives etc to reach that point. Let that be self-sufficiency / Time / whatever — which is what you mean by internal journey. | [12:39] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: what exactly am i supposed to search for in the logs to get these 'answers'? "hunger" "bread" "job"? | [12:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re "journey" do be aware of http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933879 | [12:49] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 12:43:59 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: do you remember by any chance *where* did you say explicitly that one's less by precisely their investment/time outside the republic? | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | re search, oh lord, if it were that easy, lol; what do you think the logs are, some simple tweets with easy-tagging? fwiw there's a good example of a hard "data analysis" | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: anyway, you should NOT go reading now/spend your time until the 15th reading instead of doing your own inner work in figuring stuff out. | [12:52] |
| shrysr: | LOL !!!!! which is why i'm typing here and did not search the logs, because i know i wont find what i need to in time. | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | there's time for reading afterwards, the words don't go anywhere and they will make more sense later anyway. | [12:53] |
| shrysr: | okay – how is my answer terribly insufficient compared to Mocky's above? he says nearest solution. FWIW: you mentioned earlier abt gardening. you might have noticed – i spent 5 months actually doing the equivalent. its not an answer. | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: Mocky did not say that in answer to the question you've got, lol. | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | your answer is terribly insufficient *for the question asked* | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | and at any rate, don't do this inane kids stuff "but X also did it" | [12:56] |
| shrysr: | as an example – or inference. you convert 100k/year >> self sufficiency. I think 'self-sufficiency' is obvious – so what does self-sufficiency mean – 100k/year.. if i go somewhere 9-5 for 5 days a week and make 100k — i wd not give a fuck abt anything else and i wd do tmsr. thats again presuming i dont have any 'family' and other weird 'requirements' for lack of a better word. The point is even if i get | [13:01] |
| shrysr: | a job next week or in 6 months – it has to co-exist alongside tmsr, untill i figure out how I can make it go away. at 100k/year – i wd STOP looking for a fucking salt-mine upgrade… freeing up all the time i have other than salt-mine till i figure out how to make salt-mine go away! (thats still an extrapolation). | [13:01] |
| shrysr: | brb | [13:01] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you should do your own conversions really; and go deeper for once. | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | given what you said above re 100k/year and what you think it means, I suggest you also focus on the tradeoffs for every "gain" you see, because that part seems to be a total blindspot for you so far. | [13:04] |
| diana_coman: | specifically for the 100k example above, perhaps it's peanuts in Canada for data analysts or something, but one (just ONE, there ARE others too!) likely tradeoff is that for that money you'll have traded so much of your time/energy that there isn't all that much left for doing tmsr. | [13:06] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001301 << that *was* where the 100k/year came from. and it *was* recognised as self-sufficiency and further refined to an approximate figure. I did not 'convert' after reading your commment. | [13:25] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 12:47:54 diana_coman: shrysr: you should do your own conversions really; and go deeper for once. | [13:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so where exactly was it converted by you before my comment? that aside: the approximate figure is not a refinement at all, it's going precisely in the opposite direction that you need to go with the "conversions"! | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | when you go that way (i.e. towards looking for what to do to address identified needs), you need to look wide aka find more than one approach really | [13:43] |
| diana_coman: | btw, as you seem to have totally missed it by being too focused on defense/yourself, the point of http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001301 was that there are likely several causes at the root of that "100k/year" and it's only you who can get to them. | [14:04] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 13:03:27 diana_coman: shrysr: you should do your own conversions really; and go deeper for once. | [14:04] |
| shrysr: | it was converted in my head, shaped by assessment of cost of living 1. in a village 2. in a city 3. from atleast 1 person i know whoz been here much longer in (among the) most expensive cities here – toronto. and not recently either. I see what you mean by opposite direction. However – the Minimal is not an option for me. What if it takes me 10 years to figure out how to eliminate any salt-mine? SHd my | [14:04] |
| shrysr: | savings be *wiped out* each time I wanna go home or call my parents down for a visit, or buy a car? I still view those as luxuries. the 100k is the end goal – and btw – data 'scientists' do get paid in that ball park..incidentally. this is ALSO why i mentioned 55-75k – the Other end. Which was based on the fact that I *can* survive + save for *some small emergency* on this, though it would SUCK – i can | [14:04] |
| shrysr: | live a simple life – but i will be rubbing my pennies wishing they breed. On the Flip side – if i look at 'multiple' options, i.e not a salaried 9-5, but multiple 'gigs' to reach whatever minimum:- i believe there is a LOT more work /stress/variability involved – taking away even more from tmsr ultimately. Nobody needs a stupid mech engg for remote work/gigs. There are PLENTY out of work d00d's with 10X my | [14:04] |
| shrysr: | experience in the Oil and Gas + Mech engg field. THey don't need my 'analytics/optimisation/effiency'. FWIW: the work they – i don't like doing -as good as gardening for me. Typical 'fast moving' gigs on portals like 'fiver' or whatever – need web devs and all kindsa shit that i aint good at. there is FIERCE competition on the 'gig' space. | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: multiple approaches! how do you even go from that to … "multiple jobs/gigs"?? | [14:07] |
| shrysr: | I go there to say that i've explored it. I spent a year jobless. | [14:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: would ya' focus for once on what is said and not on your previous experience? | [14:08] |
| diana_coman: | for all I know, a different approach would be to marry a rich old widow, ffs!! and don't say next thing that this is not your thing or something or I'll seriously doubt your reading comprehension skills. | [14:11] |
| shrysr: | Of course! the ultimate solution… absolutely perfect. fwiw : this was a little bit my situation. not old widow – but rich chick. thats another story that had a sad ending. | [14:13] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well, if you go widow usually there's less wait until other claims on the fortune expire | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | :D | [14:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re "conversion", that's the problem with "in my head" – nobody has any idea what's in there and I'm not going to ruin my crystal ball now either! | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | heads not that ugly that your crystal ball wd be ruined :P but ok. point taken. | [14:20] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001316 << shd refine this to say – from september 2017 to aug 2018 – there was no tmsr in my world – but i was reduced to looking for any option for nothing more than covering rent and bread…maybe some weed. That was precisely the point i'd 'embraced' data science. I thought FUCK this mech engg – i will bust my ass and get good at data science to secure | [14:51] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 14:08:59 diana_coman: shrysr: would ya' focus for once on what is said and not on your previous experience? | [14:51] |
| shrysr: | a job and meanwhile – live like a rat. I don't say i took a terrible amt of effort. bagging groceries at supermarket or flipping greasy shit at McD was ….. unthinkable.. horrible. i cdnt really bring myself to do it. I guess also – i was privileged. my dad helped. if he refused – i still cd have made it for atleast another 10 months on my own savings… i thought i will spend 24-7 studying and wont waste | [14:51] |
| shrysr: | 8+ hours in a shit hole, and get results faster. The correct solution wd have been to become an uber taxi driver… i just did not have a fucking drivers license then. Now THAT is not a terrible solution….mostly. it has some caveats – upfront investment, upgrading drivers license to 'commercial' and moving to nearest city, variability in fares at the minimum – but probably not insurmountable. Know a guy | [14:51] |
| shrysr: | who did this a few months ago. | [14:51] |
| BingoBoingo: | Tossing bags of mulch at Home Depot was at the very least excercise even if it wasn't well compensated exercise. | [14:52] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: 'uber' is a scam, specifically a scheme to rope people into buying cars on credit. they ~require~ that you have one that is < 3y old . | [14:53] |
| shrysr: | yea…. when i heard abt the <3 y thing… i was sure there wd be more that fucked that up as an option. | [14:55] |
| shrysr: | BingoBoingo: true that. unfortunately/fortunately – i had plenty of that…. walked/jogged 10+ km each day. stoned and dejected trying to find inspiration for another call / application. | [14:57] |
| shrysr: | LOL i was pulled over by cops in village when i came here — for walking!! it was just 10:30PM…. was told – nobody ever seen walking here. shd be on youtube or whateva….. it was cold and i had my hands in my pockets… she reached for her fucking gun and demanded i show my hands. surreal. | [14:59] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001323 – wait, do you mean it's been now a whole year of embracing that old shifty hag of data-something?? | [15:40] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 14:51:48 shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001316 << shd refine this to say – from september 2017 to aug 2018 – there was no tmsr in my world – but i was reduced to looking for any option for nothing more than covering rent and bread…maybe some weed. That was precisely the point i'd 'embraced' data science. I thought FUCK this mech engg – i will bust my ass and get good at data science to secure | [15:40] |
| diana_coman: | and you know: write down how you narrowed the field down to it anyway. | [15:41] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001326 – ugh, not correct at all; possibly worse than bagging groceries since very likely to leave you out of pocket too and by a significant amount; a car is a liability, not an asset! | [15:42] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 14:51:52 shrysr: 8+ hours in a shit hole, and get results faster. The correct solution wd have been to become an uber taxi driver… i just did not have a fucking drivers license then. Now THAT is not a terrible solution….mostly. it has some caveats – upfront investment, upgrading drivers license to 'commercial' and moving to nearest city, variability in fares at the minimum – but probably not insurmountable. Know a guy | [15:42] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001330 – uhm, so 2 lines further down you go all of a sudden from "The correct solution" to "fucked that up as an option" ?? | [15:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 14:55:29 shrysr: yea…. when i heard abt the <3 y thing… i was sure there wd be more that fucked that up as an option. | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001332 – now this you should defo filmed and put on your blog! and no, NOT on youtube ffs. | [15:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 14:59:59 shrysr: LOL i was pulled over by cops in village when i came here — for walking!! it was just 10:30PM…. was told – nobody ever seen walking here. shd be on youtube or whateva….. it was cold and i had my hands in my pockets… she reached for her fucking gun and demanded i show my hands. surreal. | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | esp is she had a… fucking gun, lolz. | [15:45] |
| shrysr: | it was the 'correct' solution in the sense that driving is more pleasurable than bagging groceries to me. I cd wait for a fare and have a laptop continuing my search possibly… as far as i cd see – it was less work for more money and i'd atleast get to see the city as well and perhaps meet ppl while improving so called mobility. also correct because i walked like a dog in the snow and rain for about 5 | [15:54] |
| shrysr: | months after shifting to village for this job because i learnt in the hard way that there are places in canada where u either walk or have a car. essentially – i carried my laundry + groceries abt 2km every week for that period not unlike a donkey. i needed a car to go LOOK at old cars!! which were ALL in the next town as a minimum. I was extremely fortunate to find a 3rd hand 2003 pontiac sunfire for | [15:54] |
| shrysr: | 1000$. The guy was nice enough to bring the car to me when i told him i wd walk to his mega ranch about 5km away. ALSO correct because of ridiculous norms here. They have a driving test every 3 weeks here, with one 'registry' per town, but in the city – every day almost … with multiple registries. | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: see, there's for sure one of your troubles: you consider correct what is pleasurable; that (like "doing what I want and obtaining what I need") may work but only after you know enough to really find pleasurable what is actually correct (and to want what you actually need); a tall order. | [16:00] |
| diana_coman: | that village life without money is likely even shittier than town life without money might not be all that surprising, yes; but what did you change as a result of all those "surprises" and unexpecteds? because I don't see it anywhere and it's the most important part really. | [16:04] |
| diana_coman: | and by change I mean change in your decision process because that's the one that worked rather spectacularly poorly (and on repeat too, from what I gather) | [16:05] |
| shrysr: | not sure what decision process you are talking abt. A car is a liability as I ack and also know – but having a license is important. thats 1 thing i learned. fwiw: i did not think i'd end up in a heathen place without public transit, or even a real taxi service. Even India aint like that (well.. to a surprisingly large extent). The numbers indicate signifcantly more jobs altogether in toronto /ontario… | [17:30] |
| shrysr: | it seemed more likely i wd not have to leave esp 'under duress with a single option in hand', even if it took some more months to find a job. | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the decision process that yielded "data analyst is the solution"; it starts with root causes, it has some sort of methodology for considering /discarding potential options etc. Is there even such a thing really? | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it can happen you are wrong (ie. "i did not think X or Y"), sure; but *every* time that happens, it's a sign your thinking process was not good enough that time; now, if you *have* an actual process, you can examine it in light of the observed failure and decide on a change so that next time you do not repeat the same sort of fail; onth if there isn't a clear process, there isn't much to do and chances are you'll just repeat the sa | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | argh, cut line, it was: "you'll just repeat the same fail sooner or later." | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | or as great-grandma used to say *after* she had used already a big stick on one's back: making a mistake once is unfortunate, making it twice is asking for it but making it a third time is being an idiot alltogether. | [17:54] |
| shrysr: | I spent 1 year walking through snow and mud for almost everything in toronto, to save bus money and because i needed to walk off frustration..lol. I thought walking wd be perfectly feasible in village. It shd have been per the distances involved (google maps) and partially is perfect (in summer). I didnt even want a damn car!! The difference Unfortunately as it turned out is that the Godforsaken village | [17:56] |
| shrysr: | (actually town.. i've started calling it village nowadays) did not have fucking sidewalks. The sidewalks are ONLY at the center of town and some spots. The cheapest motel was right opposite work thankfully – which meant walking 80\% in calf-deep+ snow on the side of a road and 20\% on sidewalk for weekly runs to stores. Shifting to motel at center of town wd mean walking that 80\% Everyday to work. another | [17:56] |
| shrysr: | one of my troubles as you call it is that i refuse to ask help unless I'm gonnna die or something… ppl wd have picked me up but i always view it as an unreliable dependence which introduces complications one way or the other — If theres anything i wd change – its that i shd ask for help and not always think i can become tough(er) by facing more shit + not fear the obligation that i need to return the | [17:56] |
| shrysr: | favor even at an inconvenient cost in the future. Not everybody is a black orc to be feared and avoided… its not helpful to start like that in a new place atleast. I am called the 'friendliest anti-social person' ever by the few ppl at mine.. its true. i dont talk much… except in chan it seems of late. I would shift the balance towards social… but i cant shake the 'belief' that the majority of social | [17:56] |
| shrysr: | interactions are corrosive.. | [17:56] |
| shrysr: | lol friendliest because i smile more than talk. | [17:58] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001356 – yep and I *knew* it before getting to that line; because north-america is not same as europe is not same as asia is not same as africa and so on. | [17:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:56:47 shrysr: (actually town.. i've started calling it village nowadays) did not have fucking sidewalks. The sidewalks are ONLY at the center of town and some spots. The cheapest motel was right opposite work thankfully – which meant walking 80\% in calf-deep+ snow on the side of a road and 20\% on sidewalk for weekly runs to stores. Shifting to motel at center of town wd mean walking that 80\% Everyday to work. another | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | the bit to change there re decision process is to consider potential differences; pretty much what popped up in fact already iirc. | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001360 – funnily enough this was precisely what I pictured the moment I read the description; at most non-committal talk. | [18:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:58:15 shrysr: lol friendliest because i smile more than talk. | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001359 – only when you don't match the type of interaction correctly to what you have there ; note that the corrosiveness comes from your own mishandling, not really from their end; link also to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001237 | [18:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:56:53 shrysr: interactions are corrosive.. | [18:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 17:42:21 diana_coman: people are rare, certainly. | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | and then anyway, are you made of iron or of diamond, what's all this!! | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001357 – the trouble sounds more related to vanity by the sounds of it. | [18:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:56:49 shrysr: one of my troubles as you call it is that i refuse to ask help unless I'm gonnna die or something… ppl wd have picked me up but i always view it as an unreliable dependence which introduces complications one way or the other — If theres anything i wd change – its that i shd ask for help and not always think i can become tough(er) by facing more shit + not fear the obligation that i need to return the | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | ftr you grow (aka "become tough(er)") by facing *what scares you* not just whatever random shit that you fell into; in other words, it's not the toughness of the outside thing that makes one tough, this is not magical eat-the-enemy-s-brain sort of thing; toughness is your quality and specifically what *remains* after the excision of weaknesses. | [18:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so…. what scares you most? :D | [18:20] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrow.x01 | [18:28] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001366 yea..i know what you mean, abt my own mishandling and agree. i guess it is a thin line for me. I've been uncomfortably right many times, though I do force myself to think i'm wrong and have no right to classify orcs/ppl like this or dont even know enough to do so accurately anyway… i guess I usually test the waters or learn enough simply by | [18:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:08:34 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001359 – only when you don't match the type of interaction correctly to what you have there ; note that the corrosiveness comes from your own mishandling, not really from their end; link also to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001237 | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | keeping quiet and observing after which i pick and choose the ppl i will 'deign' to interact with.. This is refined frequently based on situation and needs and strategy is improvised.. but they all get the same wide smile so everybody is available to fulfill any necessary strategy. i dont talk at all till i trust a little bit..to the point of appearing moronic… and even more – i avoid 'unintelligent' | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | small-talk — if i have cut across to somebody – i'd rather prepare something sensible. Even so – i've tried reading up 'shit to share'…now and then .. sort of remind myself – this can be used in small talk!! if i do rem – i let it rip… lolz. Often dont. Its not a technique attacking root cause change — over the years its become better in general. It had to be done for example at 2nd salt mine – i | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | was dealing with customers directly..lol. One 'less important reason' – i got out of R&D (1st salt mine) so that I wd also force myself to *interact* on a much bigger scale. The good thing is that i recognise the weakness… the bad thing is that the more i 'learn abt myself' or any subject – the more alienated i seem to get from most. like sort of improving – but still slipping. | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | All this being said …. i take the effort to make sure – nothing i do shd harm anybody. That wd be unspeakably ugly to me if i caused that. | [18:56] |
| shrysr: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001372 i agree with the definition or distinction – but i guess I viewed it also as a penance of sorts. tougher in a holistic sense — more disciplined, more self-reliant, physically more fit (eat enemies brains), to 'fully feel the pain' and thus the value of getting a car for eg….and i did have to stop and get a car – it was freakin cold lol – more | [19:08] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 18:19:34 diana_coman: ftr you grow (aka "become tough(er)") by facing *what scares you* not just whatever random shit that you fell into; in other words, it's not the toughness of the outside thing that makes one tough, this is not magical eat-the-enemy-s-brain sort of thing; toughness is your quality and specifically what *remains* after the excision of weaknesses. | [19:08] |
| shrysr: | importantly – i cdnt walk on the ice. | [19:08] |
| BingoBoingo: | Just as well, driving on ice threatens to depreciate any car at Argentine speed | [19:12] |
| shrysr: | :D | [19:13] |
| shrysr: | BingoBoingo: is the traffic there is similar to india i.e almost no rules? i've been told phillipines is pretty much same / worse.. | [19:21] |
| shrysr: | or rather – rules extant, but free not to follow mostly. | [19:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Here in Uruguay the traffic isn't awful. There simply aren't any expressways. This means going 15 km from one side of the city to the other can be a 45 minute to 60 minute affair. | [19:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Worse if choosing a route that includes Avenida Italia | [19:23] |
| shrysr: | :)) same but With expressways in india …. dead of the night – reach the airport in 20-30 min…. during the day 2+ hours. | [19:24] |
| shrysr: | mumbai to be precise. | [19:25] |
| BingoBoingo: | Lots of buses, but anything under 5-6 km and walking tends to result in a faster time to destination once waiting for the bus is factored in. | [19:25] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-05#1001370 I've wondered abt that sometimes… while vanity has definitely reared its head several times explicitly when younger – to the extent of threatening to get ppl fired :- 'you don't know me… or my dad' :)) (for which dad ripped me several assholes and lifted not a finger) – it died down significantly as I went farther away from home on its own and | [20:35] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:58:40 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Sep-2019#1001357 – the trouble sounds more related to vanity by the sounds of it. | [20:35] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-05 17:56:49 shrysr: one of my troubles as you call it is that i refuse to ask help unless I'm gonnna die or something… ppl wd have picked me up but i always view it as an unreliable dependence which introduces complications one way or the other — If theres anything i wd change – its that i shd ask for help and not always think i can become tough(er) by facing more shit + not fear the obligation that i need to return the | [20:35] |
| shrysr: | started slavery. I've generally been able to detect it (atleast in recent years) and course correct. Some brusque statements/or silence itself is mistaken for vanity/arrogance by orcs – however i think i dont ask for help – not because i consider myself superior – the focus is more about 'becoming' capable to handle everything thrown at me without crying for help… there are situations when its absolutely | [20:35] |
| shrysr: | clear help is needed. But in many other situations it goes – if I can do it maself taking some extra effort/stress whatever – then I shd. and there are small lateral benefits/learning usually in doing so. And then I also get to avoid social interaction in the process too.. lol. My thinking is that it is not vanity… | [20:35] |
#ossasepia Logs for 04 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001124 – sweet youth and innocence: it can always get worse! but it doesn't matter, as it's not something you can predict either way, anyway. | [09:51] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:20:07 shrysr: re: mofos @ new job. I've gathered enough wisdom as well as knowledge to understand that mofos are everywhere. My (2) is not being thought of as a switch to paradise. It seems to be the typical 'nature' of doing business and obsessions with ROI at any cost – which is what it is. But i've also learnt – there is something like 'lesser evil'. The assessment is that – it cannot get worse!! fwiw – i hated | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001128 – you know, those they own are (through that very situation) even worse, so… | [09:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:20:15 shrysr: humanity – who nevertheless own half+ of said village. | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | what's your definition for "being insulted" anyway? | [09:53] |
| diana_coman: | note that I'm not at all saying that they are any better than you say and/or that you should stay there, not at all. | [09:53] |
| diana_coman: | as far as *that* part goes, you should have possibly left earlier, if anything, precisely *because* you don't actually have any cause to stay there. | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001130 – yes; and conversely, there are also people who are worth *any* "dance"; plus every degree in between; all you need to do is pretty much exactly evaluating this correctly and acting accordingly. | [09:58] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:33:59 shrysr: any dance… (this I've learnt recently). | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [10:17] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 2d 15h 48m | [10:17] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-03#1001112 : I understand this since I've underestimated it's effect in the past and know better. new mine new place – there will be a period of 'settling' etc etc, in addition to the possibility of insane mine requirements, proving you are 'worthy' etc. My reasoning on this yesterday went that if that is gonna happen – then why cant I do (1) (2) (3) now | [11:22] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 19:05:25 diana_coman: let me cite for you from someone else's direct experience, here: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-05-30#1916225 | [11:22] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-05-30 09:30:27 ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-01#1910413, not dead, to get up to speed I let my new job take over my life | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | and plan my life and live almost like a machine right now if thats what it takes? (fwiw: i've tried that.. conceded I am not a cyborg) Why consider a step back from (3) to make (2) happen… i've wasted most of my life – why take a step back from something that feels like an antidote to the poison, while simultaneously pursuing (at worst) slightly less potent ….poison? I can say today "I'll be back" and | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | something new will pop up again.. and again… both external and internal demons will do their besto wreak havoc… if i can't find the will and energy to do my best at (1) (2) (3) AND achieve results now – then how wd I realistically ever come back to (3)? The only answer I have is that if I did not come back to (3) – i wd view it as a great loss to myself. I believe I wd miss this chan/world if i take a | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | step back.. from what I've seen of myself – if there's something I can fix – will typically take steps, but thats in the 'past' and not a guarantee. I was dissatisfied with the outcome – hence the 'gave up' (more like gave up at midnight to be tackled immediately later.. still tackling). | [11:22] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001138 yes. the issue with my change in this particular instance is that I think mech engg/ my field / industry – is not what I wanna do anymore. If it was a upward shift to a better similar mine – (2) would be perfectly manageable with (1) and (3). i've tried to reconcile with that as well – its come to the point that I get angry when I see a mech engg | [11:28] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 09:40:21 diana_coman: as far as *that* part goes, you should have possibly left earlier, if anything, precisely *because* you don't actually have any cause to stay there. | [11:28] |
| shrysr: | job description. | [11:28] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001139 > i completely agree. I believe this has been my mistake. For eg: my last salt mine shd have been 'the final choice'. If i'd been there… and I found ossasepia … i wd have stayed – i believe my life wd have actually been very close to paradise..on an objective basis… i had my own freaking chauffeur at 29! Well i was lucky to get support from | [11:50] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 09:42:53 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001130 – yes; and conversely, there are also people who are worth *any* "dance"; plus every degree in between; all you need to do is pretty much exactly evaluating this correctly and acting accordingly. | [11:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:33:59 shrysr: any dance… (this I've learnt recently). | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | home as well – still got paid much more than I needed – reasonable prospects of growth..etc etc. There were enough ppl who had brains – and i had made a strong impression. they were willing to 'slowly work out' starting a 'department' for the 'specific technical shit' i wanted to do (for which I was leaving, and which I got here only in a very diluted manner after a lot more suffering). This validates your | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | previous point – it can get worse. I thought even an asshole in the west is gonna run a company with more 'professional' standards….. the chances of getting fucked is minimal + other benefits will make up. | [11:50] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001136 << believe that is very relevant to consider. Its like being treated / spoken to unfairly. as in I make all the effort to see your viewpoint – and present an argument/statement/idea that is respectful to your viewpoint, but also conveys my message – and you fail to control your 'hurt ego' of being told something you did not consider and proceed to | [12:15] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 09:37:44 diana_coman: what's your definition for "being insulted" anyway? | [12:15] |
| shrysr: | say evrything under the sun as a response… i may be an ugly dwarf or dumb giant – but thats not what we're talking abt. Being irrational to the point of stupidity and open lack of control is insulting to me. Especially when you control yourself talking to X,Y (in front of me) and lose it talking to me. | [12:15] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001152 – sounds like a concrete example of "there's nothing worse than too much money too soon." | [12:28] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 11:50:19 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001139 > i completely agree. I believe this has been my mistake. For eg: my last salt mine shd have been 'the final choice'. If i'd been there… and I found ossasepia … i wd have stayed – i believe my life wd have actually been very close to paradise..on an objective basis… i had my own freaking chauffeur at 29! Well i was lucky to get support from | [12:28] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 09:42:53 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001130 – yes; and conversely, there are also people who are worth *any* "dance"; plus every degree in between; all you need to do is pretty much exactly evaluating this correctly and acting accordingly. | [12:28] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:33:59 shrysr: any dance… (this I've learnt recently). | [12:28] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001160 — no its not! I dint make THAT much. and I don't waste money fucking around (probably a little too extreme there) so i cd afford to do that, and I got an extra 2.5 hours to tinker everyday. | [12:30] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 12:12:29 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001152 – sounds like a concrete example of "there's nothing worse than too much money too soon." | [12:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 11:50:19 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001139 > i completely agree. I believe this has been my mistake. For eg: my last salt mine shd have been 'the final choice'. If i'd been there… and I found ossasepia … i wd have stayed – i believe my life wd have actually been very close to paradise..on an objective basis… i had my own freaking chauffeur at 29! Well i was lucky to get support from | [12:30] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 09:42:53 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001130 – yes; and conversely, there are also people who are worth *any* "dance"; plus every degree in between; all you need to do is pretty much exactly evaluating this correctly and acting accordingly. | [12:30] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 20:33:59 shrysr: any dance… (this I've learnt recently). | [12:30] |
| shrysr: | well.. tinker or even sleep for that matter. | [12:31] |
| shrysr: | a chauffeur is probably a 'ridiculously rich' concept in the west – its not so in india. well it is not 'cheap cheap' but its affordable if you need it. | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001159 -i.e. you are "insulted" when confronted with concrete evidence that your status is not what you thought it was / "should be". | [12:33] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 12:15:10 shrysr: say evrything under the sun as a response… i may be an ugly dwarf or dumb giant – but thats not what we're talking abt. Being irrational to the point of stupidity and open lack of control is insulting to me. Especially when you control yourself talking to X,Y (in front of me) and lose it talking to me. | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it's not about "ridiculously rich", nor even about an objective amount of money really; "too much too soon" has to do with whether you were at that point able or not to correctly evaluate the actual value of what you had; and from what you say, you weren't. | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | i wasnt …. based on current mine (somewhat similar business/products) – but it can be viewed as misfortune as well. There ARE better companies and human beings out there. | [12:39] |
| shrysr: | well – it wasnt entirely that either. I didnt need a chauffeur if there was a decent bus i cd sit in and something useful for that 1-2 hours. I was willing to give up a few things to find the 'cool people'. | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the "misfortune" view may be comforting but… how is it helpful? Sure, ~everything has some luck component in it as well, absolutely. | [12:40] |
| shrysr: | its not helpful at all… but beyond a point – what mistake did i make ? how wd I know before hand whether mine is better or worse … i can formulate some guidelines from my and your and XYZ's experience …. but its never enough. | [12:41] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: onth it might well be that had you found #ossasepia at that time (though ahem, I hadn't…started it at that time, lol), you wouldn't have considered it the same as you do now, precisely because you lacked the experience you got meanwhile. | [12:42] |
| shrysr: | possibly. I did know I was desperately in search by then. Emacs , code… tinkering… etc started then. | [12:42] |
| shrysr: | in earnest. | [12:42] |
| shrysr: | i didnt find anything… so i looked for better mine ppl etc. i identified exactly as you said before – the nature of the 'country' / business or whatever is X… i need Y… pursued Y… got 0.25 * Y | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | well, tmsr *was* around at that time for sure; anyway, discussion of the past is useful only to the extent that you can discuss the decision process that resulted in that, not like this "what mistake" . | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | well, unclear if pursued Y as it were; perhaps it is the case that you were cheated/fooled by the mirage of Y, very possibly indeed; but the past is what it is and it's done and dusted, nothing to fret over really. | [12:47] |
| shrysr: | yes… i only meant to say that i have spent stoned/non-stoned days trying to 'analyst'… and writing down this shit and talking abt it with my dad.. who is fortunately somewhat as patient.. and its less of 'comfort' and much more of wtf is left. | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: did you ever "analyst" your decision process rather than "what happened"? | [12:53] |
| shrysr: | i believe yes. brb 10 min. | [12:59] |
| diana_coman: | in that case you should have some concrete conclusions though. | [13:05] |
| shrysr: | analyse*.. i think yes, because the two are quite connected are they not? a lot of small and large events happen because of a decision or approach or attitude or ignorance or laziness? Some decisions are 'forced'. like taking a job when you don't have one. i was fortunate in the past because each time i got into a mine – i had exactly 2 offers in hand.. both on 2 ocassions were sufficiently different to | [13:15] |
| shrysr: | dictate a 'deeper' evaluation to reach clarity. I had to balance 'emotional barfing' versus why I felt something and whether there was a solution. | [13:15] |
| shrysr: | dont say i did it well or perfectly .. but i don't think a good decision can be reached without being aware of the process and invisible 'factors' driving a decision or desire. | [13:16] |
| diana_coman: | hmmm, it doesn't sound like much analysis at all really; some reflection perhaps but at least in what you said so far there isn't any solid structure to it so you can't claim "analysis". | [13:22] |
| shrysr: | well you dont see a solid structure because 1. you don't/can't know my life intimately. You know what I tell you in the disconnected bits spewing from my head which I try to organise into some coherence, but still don't represent all the threads nor the process it took to reach there, which happens to conver days, months, years. i'm not building a structured thesis here by presenting every single thread – | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | a lot of threads were considered/ digested /discarded / pulled / forgotten/deemed unimportant in the process of reaching major decisions! What – does it appear each thing i say was a whim? Every mine was entered with the idea of staying there, then deciding to find a new mine – was a serious decision because it IS a pain in the ass and I had to evaluate WHY and whther I cd get what I wanted right here..or | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | not! 2. while a lot of this is gathered from my recollection – and some notes – in general – i spend a lot of time before taking even relatively minor decisions – while i admit a bunch are also taken on 'instinct' – they are usually not major. 3. (Y) above in case I havent clearly conveyed was not a mirage. A lot of the analysis actually holds well – i HAVE got some exp at current mine which i targeted, | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | which I wd not have at previous mine, which I considered Critical. However, it happened in a way that robbed the happiness. It has also been so that the absolute worst considered was not absolute. – because New learning takes place displacing or refining older 'approaches'. I have an 'offer letter' drafted covering what I wanted to do and also covering an 'exit' and actually got to do almost NONE of it. | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | It's usually not THAT disparate anywhere. 4. For each 'complaint' i make abt my life/job i make to my dad – he usually has 10 real life examples to 'prove' my view is incorrect/short sighted / idealistic / emotion driven. forcing me to analyse further than the point I'd think i have it 'really' covered. Doesnt have to be complete, but it does help that he is more or less from the same industry and i've | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | seen too many examples of him being right to the point of things being frightening. I don't spare his theories or examples even then. The difference is he made 1 major pivot and I've actually made 2 in just 5 years, and trying to make 3rd. 6. Probably most important – i did Not want to 'quit mech engg' when I came out here. Now i Do. | [14:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you got on the defensive without really considering what was being said and it's not helping. | [15:42] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001197 – ftr note that you are never in a position to "spare" what someone who says when they have proven before to such degree that they know what they are talking about; that is just plain silly. | [15:44] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 14:14:30 shrysr: seen too many examples of him being right to the point of things being frightening. I don't spare his theories or examples even then. The difference is he made 1 major pivot and I've actually made 2 in just 5 years, and trying to make 3rd. 6. Probably most important – i did Not want to 'quit mech engg' when I came out here. Now i Do. | [15:44] |
| shrysr: | yea. i realised just now you meant what are the threads considered… i'm 'loosely' summarising and it doesnt help you see what i mean and whether theres a mistake in the chain. | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | and you know, he's your father so you get more credit there than possibly anywhere else but if you apply the same "approach" in general, you'll just lose out. | [15:45] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001199 – spurious "who" in there, it should have read "what someone says, when they have proven…" | [15:47] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 15:44:19 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Sep-2019#1001197 – ftr note that you are never in a position to "spare" what someone who says when they have proven before to such degree that they know what they are talking about; that is just plain silly. | [15:47] |
| shrysr: | ok.. by spare – i meant – i cross-examined, with what I considered valid/related questions if I did not connect the dots in what he said. i don't mean being a rebel discarding his advice and falling and learning via experiments. As in what if that situation was modified to X – would your advice or my strategy change. | [15:53] |
| diana_coman: | the easiest thing to do for anyone who knows something is to back off and let you be. | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | asking questions is a different thing, nothing to do with "spare" | [15:54] |
| shrysr: | did not spare analysing that. | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | not that anyone *has* to answer any of your questions either, there is that too. | [15:55] |
| shrysr: | Few actually have for that matter! | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | well, what incentive did you offer them? and for that matter, what payback did you give then to those few who did? | [15:57] |
| shrysr: | more questions? lol. Well, I did not have too much to offer. Undying loyalty..praise… respect whatever.. a significantly longer rope. The rest wd get a brief smile and these wd get a salute? I'd use the advice to get something done and 'advertise' that X deserves credit. With those who did – if they ever needed anything – i'd drop everything else and do that. In essence – i wd dance to any degree and | [16:11] |
| shrysr: | show them my world revolved around them. Those who did generally had the interest to develop younger ppl…and share experience…me knowing more enables me to do my job better with a cascading effect reaching these ppl. Take the path from sales to engineering – if you sell something you don't kow shit abt and did a piss poor job handing it over to manufacturing – the problem is dealt with by general | [16:11] |
| shrysr: | manager X …. i needed X to show me the problems so I cd improve and he faces fewer problems. something like that. | [16:11] |
| diana_coman: | covers well one half of it. | [16:14] |
| shrysr: | probably worth noting i need X to show me the problems in the first place beacuse I report to Y and Y happens to be inept and creating more problems. Since I report to Y – i cannot pretend Y doesnt exist. The rest don't exist to me…. in any meaningful way i guess. | [16:15] |
| shrysr: | which half is not covered? incentive and payback is covered isnt it ? | [16:16] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the payback has 2 halfs: you are missing in there the half about making most of their time+effort whenever they invest it in you; in simplest terms, being fertile soil. | [16:23] |
| shrysr: | okay. hey when i say that my world revolves around them – doesnt it imply there *is* fertile soil? how else did i take in their advice and change something? | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it's hard to say what "world revolves around them" means for one or another, you know? that aside, better explicit than implicit (esp. when it's *that* important*) and "change something" is not exactly what it was about. | [16:47] |
| shrysr: | hmm so how do you show fertile soil ? | [16:48] |
| shrysr: | explicitly ? | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | 1. opening up without reserves (being unflinchingly vulnerable in interaction with them, in other words) | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | 2. exploring the implications and/or roots of what is new/surprising/unexpected | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | 3. aiming to do what they asked done, for real. | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | 3 points is quite enough for what is anyway otherwise 1 single word: submitting. Can't learn a lot without it. | [16:56] |
| shrysr: | ok. Only Re 1 : In your case – you wdnt for example contact my salt-mine share my rants etc… or fuck me over. I did not start with that distinction in mind and still cannot guarantee you wont do something like that – or somebody else in chan – but i trust you have better things to do and trust you (more every day), and realised it was pointless to not submit and express my thoughts as well so they cd be | [17:19] |
| shrysr: | corrected… All the barriers are not down – but fwiw never have so many been down. Except with 1-2 profs in the past (briefly). However, in a mine setting – GM X, significantly better than the rest — has vices… he likes me – but he doesnt all the time because he has his games to play, at anybodys cost really. ppl are funny that way, i.e submitting 100\% is like leaving a hole in the castle wall for the | [17:19] |
| shrysr: | orcs to enter in that case. No? | [17:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you need to choose who to submit to, of course. | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | ie if you open the door for orcs then they'll set your house on fire, sure; don't open the door to orcs, no; open it however to people. | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | re guarantee: there can't ever be any guarantee for anything that is still in the future. | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | note though that you can't know *what you don't know* and therefore you can't choose your learning steps – all you can choose (in the best case already) is the person(s) to learn from. | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: anyways, meanwhile there's still neither answer to http://younghands.club/2019/09/02/week-7-review/#comment-18 nor the task list ; I gather the mine-work is at least out of crisis but that's about it. | [17:33] |
| shrysr: | hmm… the problem in the mines is there is not much choice. 1 out of 100's have brain to have studied the product/process… fewer (even young) still interested in finding answers… few old interested in cultivating young / improving shit to do more meaningful work and less drama. essentially GM X was half orcish in a land of orcs, not ppl. count in 1 hand the ppl i been absolutely vulnerable with or | [17:38] |
| shrysr: | admitting any more than required. | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | people are rare, certainly. | [17:42] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-04#1001234 << yea. the crisis is averted. However, as we've been discussing, or i've been ranting since yesterday …focus split (1) (2) (3) is the problem. one sec, i will share a litttle diag to show you example. | [17:47] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-04 17:18:20 diana_coman: shrysr: anyways, meanwhile there's still neither answer to http://younghands.club/2019/09/02/week-7-review/#comment-18 nor the task list ; I gather the mine-work is at least out of crisis but that's about it. | [17:47] |
| shrysr: | http://s.ragavan.co/wp-content/uploads/Scan-Jul-3-2019-at-8.15-AM.pdf | [17:51] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ^ | [17:51] |
| shrysr: | the lines in blue are essentially things that are active. | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ok, so you are saying that you are in fact focusing for the next ?? months on finding a "data analyst" job; yes? | [17:55] |
| shrysr: | i'm saying i need to…. | [17:57] |
| shrysr: | i havent exactly 'decided'. | [17:57] |
| shrysr: | rather the urgent need is to get out. i dont wanna step back from tmsr… but i donno if i can do it all. | [18:00] |
| shrysr: | brb 10 min. | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | eh, listen here, this sort of not-decided but doing that and none of the rest but-still-dont-wanna is not going to get anywhere; you have until the 15th of September to answer http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001116 | [18:15] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 19:23:13 diana_coman: shrysr: ok, let's put it the other way around: *what* do you think you need first, before you can "(3) – is ALL i wanna do" ? | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | that's all. | [18:16] |
| shrysr: | i donno if in 1 week : i split into sections of focus. during salt-mine hours – i can still do erp and still spend say 30-40\% on other directions and do fine if I keep up discipline and balance. the question is how to balance the remaining directions, and whether I can balance 2 directions in remaining time and still deliver because theres so much to do in both. | [18:18] |
| shrysr: | I believe i need to make $ in the ballpark of 100k/year to do (3) all the time >> I'm ok with starting at say 55-70k to account for I'm 'switching' fields – it will be Loads easier to switch mine in same analytics area for higher pay later (if necessary). But it wont be a field change anymore after iniital entry. After init entry irrespective of money i secure – i don't see an issue in pursuing (3). There | [18:28] |
| shrysr: | will be only 2 directions then… salt-mine and tmsr. | [18:28] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: does this answer the Q? | [18:33] |
#ossasepia Logs for 03 Sep 2019
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [10:40] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 16h 11m | [10:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: http://younghands.club/2019/09/02/week-7-review/#comment-18 | [10:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes i saw that today. it is just as well. I updated my user profile on younghands with my email last week – but still don't get any email notifications for comments? Wd be nice to have that to keep track. I guess RSS wd be better… what do you use for RSS btw? | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you can actually use feedbot and it'll pm you for any rss feed you tell it to track for you | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | just make sure you talk to it in pm not in chan | [17:09] |
| shrysr: | hmm…. that is interesting, and you have told me before iirc. my weechat / tmux / IRC setup is not yet streamlined enough – i.e it will be a pain to copy links to a browser each time…. too many contortions. | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: simply go /msg feedbot !1 help | [17:12] |
| shrysr: | i love nice manuals. | [17:13] |
| BingoBoingo: | shrysr: there is no smtpd on the server. The blog can't send emails. | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | basically you simply tell feedbot for instance !1 subscribe http://younghands.club/comments/feed/ | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | and then you'll get a pm from feedbot on irc each time there's a new comment on younghands.club | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | quite handy as it's then logged by your client too anyway | [17:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you don't *need* to copy the links anyway; all you need is the notification i.e. to know that there is a new comment, no? | [17:15] |
| shrysr: | yes true. | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | finding it on the blog is super easy as that's what the "recent comments" part is for | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | all republican blogs have pretty standard rss urls i.e. domain/feed for posts and domain/comments/feed for comments and that's all you need | [17:16] |
| diana_coman: | that's what I use btw and it works great. | [17:17] |
| shrysr: | okay. I've subscribed and will explore the manual. | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw I remember there was this "task list 1st thing tom" :D | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | how come it's Tuesday and you still haven't published that? | [17:18] |
| shrysr: | there was yes… i was sucked into finishing my salt mine ppt for today… (which i just delivered..) and then i had to make a bunch of mods after a review with my dad. there was no time… | [17:22] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that's what happened, sure; but it's not quite enough to state "what happened" so…go ahead. | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | is listening to the rest that shrysr has to add to the above.x01 | [17:24] |
| shrysr: | ok — was that sarcastic, as in – dont type anymore? | [17:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: no; it was for reals: don't stop there. | [17:28] |
| diana_coman: | ahem, and you *still* stopped there; why? | [17:35] |
| shrysr: | slept after midnight… not making excuses, but there really was no time. Actually I wasn't planning to review it my dad but i'm glad i did, and then i had to prep a bit to realign my 'plan' to present. On top of everything the baseline is running very strong in my head. the ppt today was in between grilling and deep-fry….. mostly for the wrong reasons and wd have been MUCH worse if i had not toned down | [17:35] |
| shrysr: | my 'criticism' for existing practises. I wasnt surprised per se…. but i cant not feel disappointed at stupidity. However, despite all the misgivings i have – it was all well received and i got a 'good job' and clucks of false sympathy at the magnitude of my task spiced with frequent hints that it was actually awesome and needed but not needed. | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | aham | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | but do you realise that your "no time" and *all* of the above comes *already* after the deadline, right? | [17:36] |
| shrysr: | i do. | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | there is no magical time-bag from where you can extract some more whenever convenient; you will always have time *only* for what you make time; and as such, you should always work with some error margin baked in, not hero-effort-at-last-minute sort of thing | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | so then, still missing from all the above: your analysis of why your approach to planning failed + your conclusions as to what you'll change at it for next time | [17:39] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr! | [17:58] |
| shrysr: | fair enough. and point taken and certainly valid.. The issue was that I kept adding and modding the ppt by getting something done or testing something and it wd not end. THere were also some major updates to the work end of last week which changed a lot of the ppt. I should have set a clear point to stop… actually i had a clear scope in mind starting out and actually had the ppt ready some time back – | [17:58] |
| shrysr: | but keept adding to it… there was a fear or maybe part realisation that if I did not show the benefits (i.e not state, but show) – the project cd be easily shelved, and then what? Complete loss of control of my time in salt mine. I found today the fear was not entirely unfounded btw. Going deeper – it shd have been 'relatively' painless to pull together a bunch of tasks – but i thought – my tasks and | [17:58] |
| shrysr: | priorities and the time straddling need a major review connected to baseline + related issues of subsistence. I did not have the bandwidth to deal with it effectively and gave up. | [17:58] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, how come each time your replies come through only when I ping you? is your setup weird again or what? | [17:58] |
| shrysr: | well i just keep typing and dont hit enter….. because i go back and forth changing what i write untill i am satisfied it is a reasonably accurate representation of the shit in my head… what i actually want to say… and so the next line doesnt invalidate the previous. | [18:01] |
| shrysr: | i shd have stuck to ERC…. its fast to move the cursor in all the directions….. right now it appears only fwd and back…. unless theres some setting. | [18:02] |
| shrysr: | brb 10 min | [18:02] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: on one hand there's the ppt/other work that got out of hand (and that needs indeed addressing too, sure) but on the other hand there was ALSO no time specifically allocated for the review+tasks + the *silent* "give up" which is just not an option *ever*; | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | you may come in here and say what and where and why you are stuck /out of bandwidth for now/struggling with/ failing at | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | but what you may *not* do is simply keep silent! | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | and at the very least the above may simply go into the review and the task list simply flows from it and that is what it is | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | linking also to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Aug-2019#1000533 and just in case my http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Aug-2019#1000536 wasn't clear enough, understand this: the failure mode is when you do not engage/keep silent/do not expose whatever problems/troubles you might have; it's never nor can it be the problems/defects themselves! | [18:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-25 17:55:45 shrysr_: no, I guess not. that it happened still feels surreal at times with some doubt if i am good enough to be worthy of it. | [18:14] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-25 17:59:10 diana_coman: shrysr_: focus on doing the best work you are able to and don't worry about that sort of evaluation – that's my call and therefore not your worry anymore. | [18:14] |
| shrysr: | ok | [18:19] |
| diana_coman: | so I do hope I won't have to keep pinging you otherwise on all sorts all that much, ok? | [18:20] |
| shrysr: | ok.. i wd not want you to do so. so far – i see that my focus has to be in 3 directions. 1. salt-mine work (wherein some is related to future stepping out) 2. getting out of here, i.e data science / analytics stuff 3. tmsr. My assessment is that (2) is the most important. For many reasons. The simple fact is that i am 31 and can't save much on what i make, and there is dim hope of that increasing | [18:45] |
| shrysr: | here..similar salt mine (if struck) I make a little more but I need to solve this shit properly with a change in field for the long term. let that be data science fwiw. (1) cannot be ignored. whether are ppl are salivating for this to work 'right now' or not – i wd become the asshole i hate if I 'left' things hanging by 'playing games'. being a new d00d in this country – i may need their references, as | [18:45] |
| shrysr: | much as I wd hate to use it. In typical salt mines – ppl kiss and make up and there is maturity. I cant rely on that normal here based on what i've seen. (3) the relatively new addition – i'm fond of. However, the 'failure' was in deciding whether I am really capable of attacking all 3. The fact is (2) requires massive effort both in learning – and in getting across to people and opportunities… the | [18:45] |
| shrysr: | latter has been a colorful merry go round of emotions in my experience dealing with which is a time sink by itself. Failure to decide whather it makes more sense to stick with 1 and 2 and get back to (3) when (2) is done, and to Do (2) differently – i.e target nearest company and specific profile and not only the 'knowledge'/'truth' ….. the truth is that even 'best' fullstop – is draining. Its hard to | [18:45] |
| shrysr: | 'accept' i'm done. | [18:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: why do you see 1,2,3 as such separated items? if you insist on going in 3 directions at the same time, ofc it's quite impossible; the root trouble there is still… aiming for purposes and ignoring causes really. | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | separated in terms of time and tasks ? | [18:53] |
| diana_coman: | the main trouble is when you try to separate yourself as it were, that's where it all breaks down really | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | at the limit you can always split a day or a week in three chunks but it's not that the real trouble no matter how it might seem | [18:56] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Sep-2019#1001087 – that stick + get back is unlikely to "make sense" + there are already quite a few examples of people who tried that and never came back | [18:57] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-03 18:45:54 shrysr: latter has been a colorful merry go round of emotions in my experience dealing with which is a time sink by itself. Failure to decide whather it makes more sense to stick with 1 and 2 and get back to (3) when (2) is done, and to Do (2) differently – i.e target nearest company and specific profile and not only the 'knowledge'/'truth' ….. the truth is that even 'best' fullstop – is draining. Its hard to | [18:57] |
| diana_coman: | the draining + hard re "done" is most likely because your "done" is not measurable at any point so it drifts | [18:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: try focusing for once on causes and extracting from there "what to do next" rather than fitting "what to do " to some purpose | [19:00] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: why is 3 anyway not at all related to "getting out of here" or how do you see it? | [19:03] |
| diana_coman: | re saving: pretty much the only saving currently possible is in btc anyway so "saving" in CAD/USD or whatever other papers that they keep printing whenever convenient (for them) is just getting fleeced. | [19:05] |
| diana_coman: | so if you want to save, simply buy any bitcents you can and keep your key+wallet safe, that's pretty much it; and ftr if "no money for any bitcents", your best bet is probably playing eulora anyway. | [19:07] |
| BingoBoingo: | As much as there's been laughing at the Peso Argentino lately, the only major difference between pesos and dollars is the speed at which they happen to be falling. | [19:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I'm not even sure though how come you can't save given that your salary didn't sound *that* terribly small and you live alone and don't seem otherwise to splash on anything (certainly not food, nor travel nor housing so then..what?) | [19:09] |
| diana_coman: | granted, I have no idea re tax regime in canada or even prices where you are so it's a genuine question here: how come or why exactly can't you save? | [19:10] |
| shrysr: | yes absolutely – (2) is reduce the separation in myself and end the fucking nuisance of career pivots that I've done. (2) is not purpose, it is after all subsistence. C'mon – I live in a fucking motel room…. my savings would be wiped with one major expense and I save like a fucking sparrow building its nest, and yet spend freely on 'courses' and books or whatever to learn. GUys my age have a social life, | [19:14] |
| shrysr: | a wife, and 2 dogs – while I don't want any of that and maybe never cared since my time in UK – i am fucking 'poor', and that I cant tolerate, and I owe it to my parents to do well if not for self destructive pot craving self. and the stuff in (1) i see the parts you consider purpose and admit it is 'in the future' – you have to see that its not an impractical consideration – and is based on current | [19:14] |
| shrysr: | conditions! I'm saying I cannot BURN that bridge by ignoring (1), as I kind of came close to. You have to see what i see to – because I myself dont believe it sometimes w.r.t super extra volatility. What I do now – leads to something in the future … i hate these mofos but i work because I have to produce my best, and know that at some point – i will look back – and I believe I would view it as a mistake. | [19:14] |
| shrysr: | I | [19:14] |
| shrysr: | dont want to not get a job because i cdnt get a reference, bc i burned a bridge. God knows how it really works in this country— i spent a fucking year jobless !!! | [19:14] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: simmer down, there's nowhere I said you shouldn't do the work at your job, at all. | [19:15] |
| shrysr: | Re (3) : i don't yet see how it is a way out – your explanation gives me hints — but even if it was not — i believe it will take me more time and hence (2) | [19:16] |
| shrysr: | (3) – is ALL i wanna do when I dont do salt-mine shit. (2) is for (3) | [19:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: what will you do if 1. you don't get a "data analyst" job in …how much, even? 1 year? 2years? 10 years? 2. you get a "data analyst" job and it turns out to be for some mofos even worse than those + no energy left at the end of the day for any other intellectual work? | [19:20] |
| diana_coman: | let me cite for you from someone else's direct experience, here: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-05-30#1916225 | [19:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-05-30 09:30:27 ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-01#1910413, not dead, to get up to speed I let my new job take over my life | [19:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-05-30#1916227 | [19:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-05-30 09:31:06 ave1: and then the bridge between the insane world and sane trilema became harder and harder to cross | [19:21] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ok, let's put it the other way around: *what* do you think you need first, before you can "(3) – is ALL i wanna do" ? | [19:23] |
| diana_coman: | and go for actual things, not "a data analyst job" | [19:23] |
| diana_coman: | take your time on that if you need to. | [19:28] |
| shrysr: | Fair point, Re your (1) above – this is where the 'revised' strategy comes into the picture….. of not learning for knowledge – but to Explicitly and Only target what they wanna hear till (2) is done. Increase the chances by targeting the nearest companies (1 hr drive away) rather than the 'highly desired AI hotbed' Toronto which is a 4 hour flight. The evidence says – data science is filled Mostly with | [19:30] |
| shrysr: | guys who are NOT from comp sci /stats etc desired unicorn backgrounds. THere is NO reason I can't make it – because I see dumb fucks every other day who have never even used Linux in their life work as 'Lead Data Scientists' or whatever. My assessment is that if I do the above strategy -without deviating to the pursuit of 'deep knowledge' – it shd not be infeasible to be ready in 3-6 months – just in time | [19:30] |
| shrysr: | for the time when ppl wake up after their so called new year hiring 'freeze'/lethargy/holiday spirit whatever. I have an answer for (2) as well – but i gotta leave the office or will be locked in. brb in 15 min. | [19:30] |
| diana_coman: | k | [19:32] |
| diana_coman: | will read tomorrow. | [19:48] |
| shrysr: | re: mofos @ new job. I've gathered enough wisdom as well as knowledge to understand that mofos are everywhere. My (2) is not being thought of as a switch to paradise. It seems to be the typical 'nature' of doing business and obsessions with ROI at any cost – which is what it is. But i've also learnt – there is something like 'lesser evil'. The assessment is that – it cannot get worse!! fwiw – i hated | [20:20] |
| shrysr: | prevous mines – but it was never this retarded /crazy. Believe me – i have tried to reconcile to 'a pleasant somewhat financially constrained life' in the village… there are great benefits here too ( this was long before i popped up here). The fact of the matter is – while you have to typically be subservient or 'diplomatic' to varying degrees in all salt-mines and no employee is not expendable anywhere | [20:20] |
| shrysr: | – but there is a much better base of dignity, and smthing abt being able to 'argue' or impose /order without personal insults. It's largely absent @ current mine. Can you imagine a *typical* convo where – you will be insulted for your idea (and any minor display of intelligence or factual knowledge), will receive Mild praise that your idea is awesome and very necessary, and then insulted again – by way of | [20:20] |
| shrysr: | stating that this was done a long time back in a 'different' (actually stupid / inefficient) way, and then get fucked for being brown skinned, and then fucked a little more for 'wasting time explaining wtf you do', because wtf you do is surely saving time and money – but is not exactly an ATM spewing cash as you talk! There are worse examples – but i won't bore you further abt the absolute dregs of | [20:20] |
| shrysr: | humanity – who nevertheless own half+ of said village. | [20:20] |
| shrysr: | All the above being said – many of these characteristics are not atypical of 'ownership' companies. There is a certain power in being able to directly deal with the owner – and it comes with needing to deal with volatility and an extra thick layer of servility, skin etc. Perhaps a meteoric rise and similar if not faster fall from grace for flimsy (crazy) reasons. However, there are some who – are not worth | [20:33] |
| shrysr: | any dance… (this I've learnt recently). | [20:33] |
| shrysr: | ima need to think about 'what things' … /me makes mental note that silence is to be avoided if stuck/still vague etc. | [20:35] |
#ossasepia Logs for 02 Sep 2019
| shrysr: | diana_coman: review posted, task list i will post tom first thing, guess i also wanted to discuss the reading list. | [02:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: why not publish that essay you gpg-ed? | [05:20] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Sep-2019#1000931 – so discuss it, lol; and better a few days before the deadline. | [05:21] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-02 02:51:39 shrysr: diana_coman: review posted, task list i will post tom first thing, guess i also wanted to discuss the reading list. | [05:21] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [09:49] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 15h 20m | [09:49] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1000932 << original plan was to publish the baseline section alone and use the remaining as fodder for thought. I think it is unethical to oublicly talk ill especially of my current salt-mine… everything being said and holding as 'truth' – i think i should not be ungrateful that i Do have 'a' job… the logical retort – then quit or fuck off! is not | [11:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-02 05:05:08 diana_coman: shrysr: why not publish that essay you gpg-ed? | [11:11] |
| shrysr: | lost on me. Atleast a large portion of the things about my earlier salt mines were actually flung out at people there as an attempt to rectify the problems..(not as much here due to volatile nature evident).. but even so – there were some good people and good things everywhere (maybe because I tried not to biased) – it feels like a disservice to talk ill. I am open to my own improvement in a public forum – | [11:11] |
| shrysr: | but it can't be right to diss the world i was/am in — after all – what effective action / result did I take or achieve except running away to another country / salt-mine or 'fighting' for 'correct' exposure to do the job right and only being able to achieve it partially ? I did not stay there make it my life's mission to fix the root cause did i? | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I don't quite follow the life mission thing; the point is not "to talk ill of X"; the point is to be able to talk the truth for and about yourself, full stop. | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | if the truth involves "ill of X", note that the ill is a property of X *whether you say it publicly or not* | [11:14] |
| diana_coman: | it's not like it appears there *because you said it* publicly | [11:14] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter nobody says you shouldn't add the good parts you find, sure. | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | even leaving aside for a bit the fundamental issues touched above, here's the concrete trouble now: | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | how exactly am I to give you feedback on that, especially any detailed feedback? | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | through gpg again so that next time a guy comes in with similar outlook I just have to do it all again? | [11:18] |
| diana_coman: | basically as long as you keep it private, I can read it and it possibly helps in that I'll take it into consideration, sure; but detailed feedback makes sense only for publicly stated matter really or otherwise I need to adopt you or something. | [11:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: in case it does any good, here's an instance of "don't actually want to write this, but it has to be written" + about as purposefully balanced as I could make it: http://ossasepia.com/2016/03/28/when-the-messenger-shoots-back/ | [11:23] |
| diana_coman: | not to mention it's actually a significant bit of history there so it's not a loss in any case. | [11:23] |
| shrysr: | yes. I agree about property of X, and that I shd have added the good parts (which I'm certainly not ignorant of – as it seems necessary to preserve sanity as well – the problem also seemed that I fabricated a decent number of the 'good' parts with the resources available.. and fighting) but describing somebody as semi-literate and volatile and devoid of standards — is not the way I'd put it to current | [11:29] |
| shrysr: | salt mine without another offer in hand… i.e i'd have to be 'gentle' or whatever. and it felt like being two-faced.. Re: feedback – how about I publish the baseline section? | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you are saying that you are not yet free to talk, ok; publish then what you can say and you'll get feedback on that, yes. | [11:33] |
| diana_coman: | for all the talk of freedom, it's mind boggling how little freedom there's actually left around, huh. | [11:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the moment you *have to consider* the possible reaction of X or Y or even readers in general, you are 1. not free 2. writing less well than you could (because you are focusing on something other than what you are trying to say). | [11:35] |
| shrysr: | yes…. absolutely agreed. i hate that I am constrained. despite all the 'soft treading' – my assessment is that I am rather direct when i communicate at work – and I've even been told at current salt mine that big kahuna avoids me because I don't sugar coat much. 6 months into the first job of my life i told the HOD during review that the next level of colleagues was at 6 years of exp – and that in 6 | [11:46] |
| shrysr: | years – i would expect myself to be light years ahead of them …. i did not care about being fired back then – but as it turned out – that guy was awesome and understood my message. I believe I was just lucky. Over time I've found that being categorical — creates even more alienation, and its only sometimes on specific issues that it realy works. it feels like ppl are more content wasting time and being | [11:46] |
| shrysr: | offended and then attacking in every possible unconnected disgusting way to harm – for what? because i was honest? | [11:46] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hmmm, it's being categorical *without having gained the authority* for it. | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | think of it this way: if you enter someone's house and start telling them that a painting is horrible – you may be honest and even right about it but whether they'd thank you for it or throw you out depends on whether you are just a guest there or an expert called in to evaluate the painting | [11:54] |
| diana_coman: | sure, you may argue that you *are the expert* and they just don't know it, so it's their stupidity at play but that doesn't quite let you off the hook either for not knowing your role. | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: fwiw your essay *does* have a rather glaring lack of self-reflection there too; i.e. there's a lot about what is wrong with others, not that much re what you got wrong though. | [11:58] |
| diana_coman: | and perhaps even more importantly: you tend to state your desires there in negative terms of what is rather than in positive terms of what you want i.e. you tend to say "that (which is/happens) is not acceptable" instead of "I want X" | [12:02] |
| diana_coman: | bitterness doesn't help you especially once/when you try to move forwards so forget about it when you are trying to figure out what you want: state instead clearly and in as much detail as you can figure out what is precisely that is most important to you. | [12:05] |
| diana_coman: | and any negatives should really be about what you can't tolerate because that's an important limit, arguable more important even than what you want. | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | arguably* | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | the above assuming that you know enough to want what you actually need, which is not all that clear so far. | [12:15] |
| shrysr: | idk if all that i can't tolerate and everything i've done is because of an idealistic view point driving a lack of acceptance of perceived irrelevant norms, inept practices and people. The overarching argument against my thoughts is that the business is older than me and alive and so why change anything 'for the better'? the painting is what it is – but if that painting affected my job and how well i could | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | do it – why not ask an explanation? I don't want a thank you – I want a valid defence of a practice or role definition that makes me concede I am mistaken/short sighted, and if I am – then help me not be so too. I don't want you to accept the words coming out my mouth on any authority even if i had it – and I am the first to admit I was 'born yesterday'. I would argue that my self reflection pushed me to | [12:36] |
| shrysr: | change lines – abandon a subject i loved because the industry 'used the subject' in a limited sense constrained perhaps by money or short sightedness or whatever. and then shift again because i could not access 'repositories' of knowledge that seemed normally available to people in the 'right place', i.e out west (ppl at the same level of role btw, who I worked with everyday). | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: not sure what you are answering there; e.g. where was "not ask for an explanation"? that aside and fwiw, the "offshoring" practice is alive and well in programming too and well spread in same way for the same reasons (i.e. India and Romania too are prime locations for it, sure). | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | note also that part of the reason why those are prime locations for it is exactly found in what *they* are; not at all in the West being mean and whatnot. | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | but I think you are sliding rather off course here i.e. is this part very relevant to you currently? | [12:51] |
| shrysr: | I'm trying to distill the fundamental nature of the problem I face and thus clarify what i want/don't want since – it is not all that clear. All i want is : to use my brain for intellectual work in a field wherein – i can learn what i think I need without being terribly constrained by roles, resources and norms to the point of suffocation. eg I *can* learn about docker on my own, even if i am a dev cog in | [13:29] |
| shrysr: | a big codebase. I don't have to beg for resources to do so at salt-mine or keep 'fighting' or spend 'years' pursuing what I view as simple things. I want my chosen field to be one which is 'popular' in the sense – not restricted to an 'elite' or specific category of salt-mines. it is relevant because:- i'm not doing what i want /need … my focus is plit – and I need to figure out where to go and plan to | [13:29] |
| shrysr: | gather the knowledge I need to break into another field. This field was identified as data science, as a subset of computer science with hte consideration that it was feasible to break into – and there is still relevance w.r.t eulora. Now – the doubt is whether that choice was sound and whether it makes better sense to choose something more relevant to the work I can do here – related to info security / | [13:29] |
| shrysr: | bitcoin etc which can be refined. Say i need some compTIA etc etc crap – i can formulate a plan – eg get ready to pursue relevant cybersecurity firms in 6 months with an actual knowledge base while having researched wtf they want. | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the significant bit you are misjudging in the above is what outside-tmsr companies do (or even more pointedly what they do NOT do). | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | for your goals of intellectually stimulating work and access to resources and relevancy, there is PLENTY in tmsr, more than you can currently eat. | [13:39] |
| diana_coman: | the extent to which you need those "companies" is really subsistence atm, for lack of being in a better position but that's also about as much as you can get from them and you need to make sure that you don't pay more than its worth. | [13:41] |
| diana_coman: | that's pretty much what lobbes was saying re "excel jokey" http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Aug-2019#1000828 | [13:42] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-08-29 23:32:46 lobbes: very glad to be free of that work. It was mentally stimulating, but my job now as an "excel jockey" consumes a good \% less of my time | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | in simplest of terms: the future is here; the past is there; straddling the 2 is the hardest thing to do and the biggest danger is that you fall on the past side and can't make it up on to the surface again, let alone further to the other side. | [13:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: are you stuck? | [17:02] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [17:09] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 22h 40m | [17:09] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: kind of. I have no doubt abt plenty being at tmsr, and I view it as even more than a long term commitment – a way of thinking and doing and more. The problem lies with improving subsistence, and also changing my field – as i think another such mech engg company – even with loads better env/pay is not gonna solve my problem. its like thinking of code… security.. technology..algos…blah blah | [17:59] |
| shrysr: | while holding a wrench in my hand – thereby making me less than my best at both. | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hm, how about "your best" rather than "your best at X" ? | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | out of curiosity: since you studied in the UK, did you try to get a job in the UK ? | [18:04] |
| shrysr: | i did…very briefly. All i wanted was to do CFD / Design… i did not care abt wanting to be in india v/s UK or wherever then. I got close to an offer of a 'cost engineer', where I was told – "we did our designs etc 25 years ago… don't do much of the fancy bullshit you are talking about.. dont probably care either"… i went back home. | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the trouble is that no non-tmsr workplace will match/support your learning here (because if it did, it …would join really) | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | i.e. as long as you say you need a job there, you will have some degree of split no matter what you choose; the "best option" is one that eats up as little as possible of your time and brain power, so that you can pour it where it matters and hopefully advance fastest | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | that being said, breaks also have their own role so it's not really healthy/most efficient to do 100\% of your time just one thing anyway. | [18:17] |
| shrysr: | i'm only looking at aligning the overall field — not actual quality or even type of activities. i.e dropping the wrench and thinking all the time abt much more *related* "blah blah" — let the fucking slave masters do what they want… TBH – i've usually been able to spend a larger \% of time experimenting with my own very indirectly related ideas and getting slave shit with minimal time. I literally | [18:19] |
| shrysr: | learnt how to use Emacs at my last job… | [18:19] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hmmmm, you can try the approach of getting paid to learn what you want, there is that (because at some point I practiced it) but other than the fact that I pulled that off, I'm not sure how to guide someone else exactly to do it | [18:22] |
| diana_coman: | my point above re being the best, full stop, was that "unrelated" stuff is not "wrong" or hurting your progress just because it is unrelated | [18:23] |
| diana_coman: | and furthermore, the trouble is that it's precisely a programming job that is more likely to leave you without much energy and time for anything else; it happened already to several people and even quite senior ones. | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | basically if I were to recommend a job for subsistence to someone I'd much rather say gardening than programming – for one thing it doubles as keeping fit and for the other it probably creates *more* appetite for using the brain afterwards (through sheer boredom/frustration if nothing else) | [18:30] |
| shrysr: | lmao | [18:30] |
| shrysr: | :)) nice. | [18:31] |
| diana_coman: | so there: have you tried canada-gardening? lolz | [18:31] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you draw/enjoy graphics? | [18:35] |
| shrysr: | i have done nothing for the past 2 years except smoke weed to stop myself going crazy, applying to jobs… and 'learning god forsaken data science'…. and desperately trying to find stability. before the plunge from one hell to another possibly deeper hell – i did have a 'hazy' dream of owning my own little garden. However – i am rather terrified of/disgusted by insects so it may not be great… but then | [18:38] |
| shrysr: | i've heard of micro gardens @ home.. lol. | [18:38] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ugh, better pluck out weeds than smoking them, lol; but seriously, stop fucking your own brains with that shit. | [18:41] |
| shrysr: | sure!! before i took up engineering – i wanted to my bachelor of arts :)) my dad i guess told me nicely to 'fuck off'..i switched to engg suddenly realising it is about 'creating'… then last 2 years of graduation degree – i spent all my time preparing for a masters in 'product design'… essentially requiring to sketch out product ideas… before i found computational fucking fluid dynamics in the last | [18:42] |
| shrysr: | semester and thought i can draw whenever and anyway the drawings never look like the final product — and CFD was the golden answer. | [18:42] |
| shrysr: | actually – i did stop. precisely 2-3 weeks back. you can take credit for that. | [18:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: good for you. | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re graphics, it's not an idle question at all; and if it really rocks your boat, there's a lot of "CS" in "graphics" | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | consider the 2 paragraphs here for instance http://ossasepia.com/2019/06/30/notes-on-graphics-for-eulora/ | [18:47] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and (finally found it!) this: http://trilema.com/2013/statements-regarding-the-mmorpg-under-development-i-v/ | [18:56] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and do learn to acknowledge stuff! e.g. "reading" "got it", *something*. | [18:57] |
| shrysr: | as in? | [18:58] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hm? | [18:59] |
| shrysr: | acknowledge as in ? where did i miss ? | [18:59] |
| diana_coman: | above and earlier; e.g. when I prodded you if you were stuck – you should have said something, not just left /got into thinking quietly without any feedback/ack first | [19:00] |
| diana_coman: | if you need time to process/digest something, say it, sure; just say it though and ideally with some sort of time frame when you're likely to get back with some sort of follow-up | [19:01] |
| diana_coman: | I prodded you this time but what if/when I don't; | [19:02] |
| diana_coman: | and above re the links @ graphic | [19:03] |
| diana_coman: | graphics* | [19:03] |
| shrysr: | "Thursday, 27 June, Year 5 d.Tr" — what year does that imply and why ? | [19:05] |
| asciilifeform: | shrysr: iirc it's an ancient running gag on mp's site, involving hindu gods.. | [19:06] |
| asciilifeform: | yr 0 iirc is '07 | [19:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: lol, that's MP's fun+disdain(+narcissism I guess) re when he started aka romanian online that was ~inexistent; anyway, you have the actual year in the link | [19:06] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1001011 >> a lot like standing on a needle most of the time – but yes… i dont like to call myself an almost junkie anymore… i hope it stays good. | [19:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-02 18:29:00 diana_coman: shrysr: good for you. | [19:11] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1001012 << okay processing!! | [19:11] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-02 18:30:29 diana_coman: shrysr: re graphics, it's not an idle question at all; and if it really rocks your boat, there's a lot of "CS" in "graphics" | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrowx01 | [19:14] |
#ossasepia Logs for 01 Sep 2019
| shrysr: | diana_coman: I've written about my baseline….and more. Encrypted : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4MSIJ/?raw=true | [02:45] |
| shrysr: | BingoBoingo, diana_coman thank you for the explanations above. I think i follow… much better than before atleast. | [02:48] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: since the content was rather long – i used markdown – so it shd be easier to read on your browser rather than text editor, if you prefer. | [02:53] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: got it, will read later. | [09:11] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: okay i look fwd to it… i.e fixing my direction and removing the shit inside. | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | ossasepia.com/2017/02/18/the-open-sores-of-monkey-code/ >> what i don't understand is – are there not 'guidelines' to writing code and making contributions, and checks without which said contributions cannot be accepted – something related to "CI/CD" ? even without this CI/CD – isn't the maintainer of the code supposed to not allow this to happen? I understand the maintaine has no actual obligation and it | [11:59] |
| shrysr: | is typically voluntary, and they change over the years and so on – but how is it that the mess continues to pile on and on ? | [11:59] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: side note: i think the site is now https free … i deleted the certificate before having the sense to revoke it – but it was not set to auto renew anyway. atleast : https://s.ragavan.co no longer works.. writing notez on what was done. | [12:04] |
| shrysr: | Re: CI/CD i guess it also begs the question whether CI/CD is also like docker, i.e unnecessary / ineffective / some form of scam? | [12:25] |
| shrysr: | for eg planeshift being a game does not link with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000320 ? | [12:29] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-17 21:47:47 asciilifeform: shrysr: like every effective scam, this orchestra consists of very small number of conscious, cynical perpetrators, and a much larger circle of unthinking (and sometimes 'forced', 'salt mine gave orders… i only follow orders') chumps | [12:29] |
| shrysr: | well non-commercial rather than just 'being a game' | [12:30] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-01#1000900 << I guess http://ossasepia.com/2017/06/12/o-brave-new-code/ answers a lot of the why, but even if the intention was to 'lower' barriers – is there no way to 'sensibly' 'ease' the barriers of entry while ensuring that quality does not suffer at all and fundamental principles are adhered to? How could such a framework Not be a priority before | [13:30] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-01 11:59:01 shrysr: ossasepia.com/2017/02/18/the-open-sores-of-monkey-code/ >> what i don't understand is – are there not 'guidelines' to writing code and making contributions, and checks without which said contributions cannot be accepted – something related to "CI/CD" ? even without this CI/CD – isn't the maintainer of the code supposed to not allow this to happen? I understand the maintaine has no actual obligation and it | [13:30] |
| shrysr: | lowering the barriers and inviting shit ? | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: in short what is perceived as "barriers" is precisely the dam keeping shit at bay; laziness and cluelesness will always shout (and usually loudest of all, too, since plenty of voice and time) that "barriers" | [13:59] |
| diana_coman: | in a charitable interpretation, you can say that it's precisely the wrong sort of barriers that got lowered, basically for being *easy* to lower rather than correct to lower | [14:00] |
| diana_coman: | but the problem is deeper because this lowering of wrong barriers is itself an effect of how the incentives are aligned, it's not just a cause of further shittiness down the road. | [14:02] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Sep-2019#1000903 – strictly speaking this can't be answered generically like this since there's big variation re what "CI/CD" actually is; i.e. to the extent that CI/CD means "someone I trust for this will sign your code", it's perfectly working and fine, sure | [14:06] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-01 12:41:24 shrysr: Re: CI/CD i guess it also begs the question whether CI/CD is also like docker, i.e unnecessary / ineffective / some form of scam? | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: for some concrete examples re quality of code, here: http://ossasepia.com/2018/08/04/a-collection-of-pearls-as-well-as-ever-sadder-epitaphs/ | [14:14] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-01#1000912 << incentives as in? like adding to the graph of number of contributions on github which appears to be commonly treated as a measure of capability without any further considerations? | [14:25] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-09-01 14:02:16 diana_coman: but the problem is deeper because this lowering of wrong barriers is itself an effect of how the incentives are aligned, it's not just a cause of further shittiness down the road. | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that is one example, yes; the core is that 1. nobody actually owns the code in any meaningful way 2. lines of code added (later on anything added, hence "contributions", yes) are treated as gains instead of liabilities | [14:35] |
| diana_coman: | there is a lot of wrong measurements for sure (lines of code, number of contributions, number of projects, whatever) but by the time such "measurements" are requested, things are already rotten | [14:37] |
| diana_coman: | no matter how you look at the whole model, there's plenty wrong with it. | [14:38] |
| diana_coman: | and tbh I'm not so sure re what might possibly be fine with it – possibly the only thing would be that at least the "code" is there, that's about it but it's so swamped by all the rest that it doesn't do much at all. | [14:40] |
| shrysr: | yes — i guess that thought was driving my quetion… i could not see how the practice appears acceptable from any sensible view point. This being said – i can see an uncomfortable number of parallels in terms of what i've been fighting at each salt-mine in varying degrees…for eg i've dealt with 'senior design engineers' – whose daily work is to create technical drawings (CAD) over Years and who cd not | [14:49] |
| shrysr: | tell even fundamental non-technical differences between products! I've been disgusted by it and have never been able to understand how such things are allowed to thrive.. it's not terribly more difficult to do things right is it ?! | [14:49] |
| shrysr: | http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000312 << as I read more – i'm able to understand the anger.. and a better sense of third eye. I thought I did not feel an anger – but perhaps this is not true. | [15:01] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-17 16:06:18 BingoBoingo: shrysr: That's an honorable path many people who become good at computers take. It's also one that tends to fuel a lot of anger towards the software industry, because as you come to know what a useful computer should be doing for you, the tower of shit will be built to make the doing as uncomfortable as possible, should the doing be possible in the first place. | [15:01] |
| snsabot: | Logged on 2019-08-17 14:58:29 asciilifeform: typically there is a stage, in cure, where patient 'opens third eye' and notices that entire collective output of 'software industry' from last 30y is rubbish, from win3.1 to 'docker' to etc. but not yet happened in this one, near as i can see. | [15:01] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [16:48] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 2d 3h 22m | [16:48] |
| diana_coman: | !o uptime | [18:31] |
| ossabot: | diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 2m | [18:31] |
#ossasepia Logs for 31 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: is your idea that I make now an account on your platform so that I further also give you feedback or what? | [04:31] |
| diana_coman: | if you don't want to muck around, there is younghands.club, post it all there and be done with it | [04:32] |
| diana_coman: | you have tags there too, use them | [04:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: also, what's with the text-in-paste approach? it's text, write it here, I can read several paragraphs, you know? | [04:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ftr, as far as I remember, the selection thing was simply a matter of a few changes in the *theme* you are using so no idea what is going on in there (and the original post explained it quite step by step iirc) | [05:15] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re text-in-paste – ok. re idea: using the github like 'issues' as a comment system would solve the issue of line selection, comments, enable project tracking and add a bunch of other conveniences, at the cost of making an account, and it would not be on github. I did follow the steps in the original article… on 2 themes… it would not work. | [09:26] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes, posting on younghands.club would be the easiest way out. however, i was thinking that instead of a wp / static blog – if we used the git based approach – it would enhance our discussions, while keeping things simple and text based. I'd just have to push a bunch of files – and you'd see them. search would be more functional. | [09:32] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: understand that you may *not* "gain" whatever it is you think you gain (enhanced! optimised! faster!) at the expense of someone else; in plain terms: ofc you can "gain" heat by burning your motel's furniture but that's no gain | [10:46] |
| diana_coman: | what is a "static blog" ? | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | and why are you all of a sudden falling in love with git anyway? | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | "oh, wp is made for this task and it would be easiest..BUT here's this shiny thing that sounds cool and I'm itching to try it " or what? | [10:51] |
| diana_coman: | re the selection thing not working, it might very well be that it's some limitation of your setup or indeed whatever "improvement" in all sorts of versions of anything and everything | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: stop over-optimising upfront essentially; if you muck about much more with the website, I'll just banish it entirely and comment/read strictly from younghands.club and that's that. | [11:04] |
| shrysr: | yes. I see what you mean. i've been obsessed with this since yesterday and its pissed me off as I just want to work and post and not worry about that stuff. Not in love with Git >> just a working system to post and analyse …. I have kept in mind that you guys have been at it a LOT longer and know better than me….. ANYWAY.. I just 'found' that the files have to specifically be Text files for git to | [11:05] |
| shrysr: | parse line by line and enable that selection thing. This is beacuse markdown and org files are parsed into html. …. i.e It wont work the way i thought it would. | [11:05] |
| shrysr: | so – I give up on this selection thingy, and will stop bothering with optimisation. I will continue as i have: post on my website – and summaries with links on younghands.club . | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | k. | [11:12] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: what is 'e' representing ? > http://trilema.com/2016/what-lasts-forever/#selection-263.1-263.138 | [15:42] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: it says right there in the sentence you highlighted. | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | "for an arbitrary e" | [16:10] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: are you familiar with mathematical notation + reasoning? | [16:12] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes. not as much as i'd like though. | [16:15] |
| diana_coman: | that part of the sentence says that there is no reliable way to choose your action so that *all* its evaluations by all the different nodes are above some threshold (e), no matter what that threshold is (e.g. 0) | [16:16] |
| shrysr: | ah | [16:17] |
| shrysr: | ok | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | in more pedestrian expression: whatever you choose to do, there WILL be some to think you're great and some to think you're an idiot | [16:17] |
| shrysr: | okay – in that example – N1's value V1 != N2's V1 (though both N1 and N2 are using action a1 to reach V) right? | [16:23] |
| diana_coman: | there is no such *condition*; V1 and V2 are different evaluations of the same action (different because they are done by different agents but the results may be or may be not the same) | [16:25] |
| shrysr: | right. | [16:25] |
| shrysr: | ok | [16:25] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: and what exactly is meant by 'herps derps' legit things > http://trilema.com/2014/advanced-wot-course-how-the-wot-is-attacked-and-how-it-defends-itself/#selection-121.21-121.45 | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: "herp derp" as a verb or noun is a …term of art; a log search can help perhaps http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=herp+derp | [16:32] |
| shrysr: | lol i thought i got it as i started reading, but as I went down I… did not. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | the original urban dictionary def goes along the lines of "doing something very stupid/dopey" but I'd say meanwhile in TMSR it gathered much more specifics, hence "term of art" | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: anyway, re article (with the caveat that kakobrekla turned out rogue and I can't say I ever quite figured out his mind in any case): the point there is simply that there are 2 groups s1 and s2, each of them talking self-importantly their own brand of nonsense | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | and pretty much living under the impression that *their* nonsense is of course the *real thing*, as that's how those things always go | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | aha | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | human languages have this fuzziness and the more expressive they are (i.e. the more the words are actively used in various contexts and by various people who actually know all sorts of things), the ..fuzzier they get basically because they gain more and more shades of meanings | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | but this is a whole *other* branch of that tree for your study so make a note but leave it for laters | [16:48] |
| shrysr: | Ok! | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | I should clarify there: the fuzzier words get for someone new/coming from outside mainly (i.e. lacking all those accumulated contexts) | [16:49] |
| shrysr: | yes. I know.. its especially difficult for new/outsiders. I often hear a lot of 'slang' at work… lol, not as much as the logs though. well they are all kindda pretty much the same, and I'm from another country and 'educated' …. | [16:51] |
| shrysr: | i meant they as in the other people | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | the depth of "slang" as you call it is pretty much an indication of how deep the activity in that space goes i.e. ultimately whether it's a little club (I think most kids even go through some stage when they feel cool just for making their own words) or an established if rather stable activity or innovating and with how deep an impact | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | the depth however is not about "new words" but really about the depth of meaning of known words and/or the fitness of new words as in truly mapping onto something that was previously missing | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | shall bbl | [16:56] |
| shrysr: | I see what you mean. | [16:59] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: so you and the guys in trilema could hack / crack into any computer if you wanted to? | [17:01] |
#ossasepia Logs for 30 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: perhaps remember it's a republic, hence R at the end, lolz. | [02:20] |
| diana_coman: | as for the rest, there's a long history of my interaction with MP first, before there even was any sort of TMSR (it starts here: http://ossasepia.com/2009/12/18/despre-fantasme/ ) so I suppose you can say I was there from before the beginning. | [02:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re game dev no; the history is in the #eulora logs (logs.minigame.biz) and as a summary to start with http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/30/my-first-2-years-as-cto-for-minigame/ | [02:31] |
| shrysr: | okay that was intriguing. In general > is it good to follow the links in the article before reading all of it? I think that I should follow the links, as I read. i.e click on the link, read and then get back to the original. This is to understand the article better. However – it's not working as well as I want it to, especially the topics are entirely new. | [10:06] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/03/growing-young-hands/#selection-81.325-81.534 > how was this done step by step? Do you write notes as you read or after? | [10:06] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/30/my-first-2-years-as-cto-for-minigame/#selection-25.2-25.65 how did this 'pop up' and how does your time-log work ? | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: eh, that's a bit too intricate to extract it publicly really; let's say it's not all automated though, humans are involved! | [10:29] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: as a rule, whenever you meet something you don't know, you *should* stop and look it up/read it so yes, follow the links | [10:30] |
| diana_coman: | it IS true that especially at first this can easily grow into reading 10 days from 1 single post | [10:31] |
| diana_coman: | (as a side note, do you see how lulzy the 5 minutes read! thingie on dev.to or whatever other similar nonsense actually is, if one really want to learn something?) | [10:31] |
| diana_coman: | but on the other hand, it's the only way to truly gain knowledge as opposed to skimming the surface | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | as a starting compromise, you can basically make your tree of "must read this" and then work on it | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | it will probably first grow more than it shrinks but keep at it and it *will* gradually start decreasing too | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | re http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/03/growing-young-hands/#selection-81.325-81.534 the algorithm is always the very simple and same: make a written (this is mandatory, it HAS TO BE written) plan; start implementing it; review periodically how it's going (and/or change the plan accordingly) | [10:34] |
| diana_coman: | hence you know, http://younghands.club/2019/07/28/week-2-progress-summary-3/#comment-4 | [10:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: by the way, you haven't actually answered ^ | [10:35] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: that comment sort of led me into a tangent…. reviewing the way I 'do things'. | [10:44] |
| diana_coman: | re notes, it depends a lot on what I'm reading but in general I tend to take them as I read, yes. | [10:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: there are some parts that are universal aka same for everyone: you NEED to look up stuff you don't know rather than skip it; you NEED to write in your own words as it helps you structure and go deeper; you NEED to plan in writing and in concrete steps as otherwise inevitably it will "slide" (aka you'll lie to yourself one way or another); | [10:48] |
| diana_coman: | then again there are some parts that in time you'll cut out the way that works for you: e.g. physically write notes or not; what tools to use. | [10:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the core of it is simple really (and TOO much focus on tools and structuring and whatnot is quite often a way to avoid the work) – concrete steps (e.g. "I'll write 500 words daily", "I'll read all about and related to the WoT on TMSR blogs"; do without fail what you set out in your plan; compare results with expected results and feed that back into "making a plan" for next item | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: from your work so far I'd say you are still jumping about a bit too much; I let it be for now as it's all the excitment of new and there's a lot to get in but soon you'll have to settle down a bit for the longer term | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | because you risk burning out as it were, if you keep going on in this butterfly-mode | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | if you need to, maintain also the tree of what you want to add in as soon as there is some opening for it, sure | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | but do get some focus and stick with it. | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: understand that there's no rush; as you can see, I've been around for a while and TMSR has been around for a while so it's not one of those "get it now, latest buzz" thing | [10:57] |
| shrysr: | exactly…. i was just typing about burn out. I follow a rigorous time chunking schedule with 'control' and then after some time.. its depressing to think abt control and I slip. Sometimes I slip such that I forget most of what I've (ever) done, before 'bouncing back', but its pointless because I've lost the flow and thought process. | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so you know, leave that part to me since you want to learn with me: stick to what I set for you to do and only that; write anything "new and shiny" in the "I might be interested in this" but do NOT just follow it blindly | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | ultimately if you keep just bouncing about, there is no way I can help you either and it will come to grief | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | focus for now on learning what you are set and forget about setting yourself – on one hand you can't really set yourself because you don't know what you don't know and on the other hand it will free you from the pressure of "oh,what if I miss something shiny" and from the bouncing about and from the burnout | [11:02] |
| diana_coman: | ultimately yes, learning happens only if you submit to a teacher; is this news? | [11:02] |
| diana_coman: | choose your teacher but once chosen stick to them. | [11:03] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the rigorous time chunking schedule sounds too tightly controlled – something like that will probably work only if either you're extremely disciplined or otherwise you live with someone who forces that on you; you need to be strict about "every day I do 2 hours of X" but don't push this into the automaton/depressing planning every minute of your day | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | this is why I asked you to write a daily report as to what you did; I did not ask however for it to be written/published at 8pm every day | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: if you struggle with the planning, publish your current schedule /plan and ask for help; as always, this is the way to go about it | [11:10] |
| shrysr: | I don't particularly struggle with the planning as such. It's just that i plan something, and with experience, I've become better at estimating ..and toning down the 'excitement' and constant engagement thing, but probably 7 /10 times – i will pick up a new thread that is (hopefully) indirectly related to the planned task… I don't feel bad about pursuing the thread, but I do feel pissed off that I did | [11:15] |
| shrysr: | not do the planned task. | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: mk; *why* did you not do the planned task, did you figure that out? | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | planning that you then fail to follow (and repeatedly i.e. predictably) sounds precisely like "I struggle with planning" | [11:17] |
| shrysr: | :D i know.. but as far as I can see…it seems like I lose interest after planning, and yet there is no point in not planning… it's bullshit, but I seem to think that I should be free to do whatever I want whenever I want, and that it will eventually come together though everything is disconnected. This works to a certain extent… but I think i am conflicted between 'free flow' and a 'plan'. Maybe I | [11:20] |
| shrysr: | dont even want to tell myself that this is what I shd do now. Its all bullshit. | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: by the sounds of it you are 1. focusing on the wrong thing ("do what/if I want but end up with what I need") 2. either planning the wrong thing or to the wrong level (and from earlier, possibly too detailed when you don't yet know the details) | [11:24] |
| diana_coman: | leave yourself *some* space for free flow too but within clearly defined boundaries (of a plan), essentially; and yes, it's not an easy thing to get right, sure. | [11:27] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [11:28] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw, how's the v.py investigation going? | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: dont even want to tell myself that this is what I shd do now. Its all bullshit. -> the plan is not "telling you what to do now"; it's helping you keep on track and measure your progress; the *what* should flow *from* causes (e.g. you eat now because you are hungry now, not because some master plan says that at this precise hour you should eat every day). | [14:11] |
| shrysr: | 're-organising' efficiently i.e I have to 'archive' or hide the things I will do someday and keep ONLY the stuff I need today or the week ahead visible. | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | sounds sensible | [14:24] |
| shrysr: | re v.py : i have a better idea of what it does – but I am yet to visit the code. as such – i had python setup for typical data science type explorations – but had left virtual env setup as a pending task. i figured this out yesterday and its working fine. I would also like to complete a refresher, i.e gain confidence in the basic data structures like tuples and lists, which are things I've always | [14:26] |
| shrysr: | 'forgotten'. Found a decent resource for this yesterday and ploughed through quite a bit – but not complete. | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: and open up if something is wrong, before it gets worse – there's no crystal ball so unless you make it public, nobody can help you with it, whatever it is (planning or anything else) | [14:26] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so where's the end-of-day list (or whatever other format you prefer): so far overall I think it does this and that ; my python setup changed this way and that; pending tasks x y z | [14:27] |
| diana_coman: | + "if time permits, z, t, w" etc | [14:28] |
| diana_coman: | end-of-day-notes are also there to support you next time you come back to the task – a sort of quick "get back into the flow" thing | [14:28] |
| diana_coman: | because guess what, life is full of interruptions of all sorts. | [14:29] |
| shrysr: | :)) I'm still figuring out my end of day list at mid day…. lol. But thats because of this revamp .. *brb* | [14:35] |
| diana_coman: | lol, ok. | [14:37] |
| shrysr: | I think >> 1. The Ecu + inflation concept (trilema) | [14:51] |
| shrysr: | 2. Explore selection to URL thingy — DONE | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | 3. complete basic data structures – python | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | 4. complete new write up on WoT | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | 5. Causes and Purposes (trilema) | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | 6. continue with V-tronics 101 y | [14:52] |
| shrysr: | re: the selection to URL thingy >> this appears to be based on .htaccess which is not used in nginx. I saw the search parameters already seem to include the modification to .htaccess — so I modified the functions.php file of the theme… but it did not work. As of now …. it seems this will need a lot of digging to implement. One way Might be >>> export as HTML and find a way to include an 'id' for each | [14:56] |
| shrysr: | html tag during export itself. Essentially… no easy way to implement. | [14:56] |
| diana_coman: | aha, it happens; | [15:02] |
| diana_coman: | now you get to re-examine your well-founded reasons for choosing nginx over apache :D | [15:02] |
| shrysr: | lmao extremely well founded. nginx docs even have an article saying – don't use .htaccess | [15:03] |
| diana_coman: | you do realise that there's "an article saying" for anything you substitute for "saying", yes? | [15:03] |
| shrysr: | :D yes | [15:04] |
| shrysr: | hehe yes | [15:04] |
| diana_coman: | that aside, the "web" is a pile of shit, sure; but until and unless we clear it up, we live with and in it, no way around this. | [15:04] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, this sounds like one of those that *can* wait for now | [15:05] |
| shrysr: | yes… DEFINITELY .. lol. | [15:05] |
| shrysr: | but i would so love to have it … | [15:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: that list earlier is what exactly, your to-do-list for today ? or for what? | [15:07] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so then switch to apache and be done with it, what | [15:07] |
| diana_coman: | or let me guess, there is an article saying not to use apache? | [15:08] |
| shrysr: | no! I still have no clue as to the difference between nginx and apache… n lol- i saw the nginx doc today! not before i 'chose' nginx. | [15:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: so let me get this straight: you got nginx because it happened to be there but now you can't switch and be done with it because you don't know the difference? | [15:10] |
| shrysr: | lmao … its sort of like that….but its more of an effort to rectify the mistake of not doing *any* research before opting. | [15:11] |
| diana_coman: | there IS something to that even, but then you have to live with no-selection-thingie | [15:12] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, retroactively is retroactive you know? can't push the baby back so stop pretending it's even possible; you don't really have the option "what are the differences" since you have no idea on either A or B as it were | [15:13] |
| shrysr: | :)) i like the baby example… ok. I switch to apache….. | [15:16] |
| diana_coman: | your options now are instead: 1. you stick with what you have for now because it was there and you don't yet have the time to get something better – in this case, you live with whatever minuses it has, including no-selection 2. you switch to Apache on the grounds that a. those TMSR people chose it over nginx and they seem to know what they are doing – make a note to search for it one day! + get the selection thingie precisely like those cool people in tmsr | [15:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: hopefully the experience sticks so that next time you ask and/or investigate *before* "choosing" | [15:20] |
| shrysr: | yes! | [15:20] |
| diana_coman: | cool then :) | [15:21] |
| shrysr: | I switch to apache… right now …and make a note to re-visit apache/nginx someday. Added to today list. !! | [15:21] |
| diana_coman: | do me a favour though and do publish those end-of-day lists under their own category or whatevers but so that we can reference them when/as needed | [15:22] |
| diana_coman: | I'm not going to dig through the irc log after them | [15:22] |
| shrysr: | yes. Will Do. | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | an unfortunate side of the remote interaction is that it does require even *more* details in what you publish as there's no other way for me to see and give you feedback on it otherwise | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | good. | [15:24] |
| shrysr: | yes, i understand that. My original plan was to publish my daily agenda itself. I did not because it was ridiculously cluttered and i was sure you'd spit on the screen if i did not streamline it …. I will figure this out soon. | [15:27] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: heh; trouble is you can't do those things on the quiet – i.e. say it upfront, don't just keep quiet about it until it's figured out. | [15:40] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: LOL – i finally completed the switch to apache. | [18:06] |
| shrysr: | and…….. | [18:07] |
| shrysr: | it did not work. | [18:07] |
| shrysr: | tried different themes and the same process. | [18:08] |
| shrysr: | Perhaps it works only on mp-wp ? <<sigh>> | [18:10] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ok the only difference is that instead of using/modifying .htaccess – I included the change in the website's <directory> configuration itself. Apparently, this is recommended over using .htaccess … i do not have the httpd library installed either. | [18:17] |
| shrysr: | i'm not sure what is going wrong… but atleast – i did switch to apache. | [18:44] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: i have an idea and i've outlined it here : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wagAG/?raw=true | [22:27] |
#ossasepia Logs for 29 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | hello tanami , what brings you here? | [02:33] |
| tanami: | asciilifeform told me to come here | [02:37] |
| diana_coman: | tanami: and you didn't ask why? lol | [02:39] |
| tanami: | [11:25] <+asciilifeform> tanami: if you read and find interesting, please join #ossasepia / #asciilifeform and | [02:40] |
| tanami: | introduce self there. | [02:40] |
| diana_coman: | ok, so introduce yourself | [02:40] |
| tanami: | well, it's me — Tanami | [02:40] |
| diana_coman: | a name is not who you are… | [02:40] |
| tanami: | I am the chief technology officer of an optoelectronics company and the same for a mobile app startup | [02:40] |
| tanami: | and I like to talk on irc | [02:41] |
| diana_coman: | sounds busy; what is it you want to get out of the "talk on irc"? | [02:41] |
| tanami: | I wouldn't say that I have any particular aim when it comes to chatting on irc | [02:42] |
| tanami: | I just like to see what's happening | [02:42] |
| tanami: | what is Eulora? | [02:42] |
| diana_coman: | well, for "see what's happening" you can simply read the logs e.g. http://btcbase.org/log | [02:42] |
| diana_coman: | tanami: mmorpg with actual economy with currency tied to BTC | [02:43] |
| tanami: | ah ok, so that is it then | [02:43] |
| tanami: | I thought it might be a company with the same name | [02:43] |
| tanami: | I like the declension domain name (eulora -> eulorum), very clever | [02:44] |
| diana_coman: | the company producing eulora is Minigame; the eulorum wiki is community-made | [02:44] |
| tanami: | indeed | [02:45] |
| tanami: | anyway, I mostly just joined because I was interested in seeing a cleaner codebase for btc | [02:47] |
| tanami: | I don't use cryptocurrency at all, and part of the reason why is because of the bloated and difficult-to-audit codebases running most currencies | [02:48] |
| diana_coman: | the thing is that "seeing" as in not doing is not going to get you far around here; there's plenty of spectators and they are worth in the best case ~0 | [02:49] |
| tanami: | there seems to be a bit of a paranoid vibe going on around here, what's up with that? | [02:51] |
| tanami: | I don't think there's anything wrong with people just watching something progress.. | [02:51] |
| diana_coman: | tanami: that is probably your own bias so not something I have to answer for; re "just watching" – sure, go read the logs. | [03:23] |
| diana_coman: | don't expect people to entertain you on their own time and at their own expense though; watchers have nothing to talk about. | [03:24] |
| diana_coman: | and because this is a learning place, I'll add this time for free that "just watching something progress" is pretty much the equivalent of "oh, how nice to watch you work guise, don't mind me, I'm waiting here for you to finish so I can then claim I've been along all the while and we are friends nao, right?" | [03:26] |
| diana_coman: | the log is full of more detailed explanations on this and why it won't work so go read it, I won't spend any more time on it; talk back when you are ready to start doing something. | [03:27] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: well I just got mosh set up… lets see how the lag behaves henceforth. | [11:02] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: hey I've learnt a lot observing people do stuff and then imitating + improvising when I do it.. | [11:03] |
| shrysr: | hehe I already see a good improvement in typing speed ! I am pleased. | [11:03] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: "and then imitating + improvising" i.e. doing. | [11:08] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: how did you 'find' TMRS, and was game dev something that you were always interested in? | [20:08] |
| shrysr: | *TMSR* … i seem to get it wrong all the time. | [20:10] |
#ossasepia Logs for 28 Jul 2019
| shrysr: | diana_coman: I've posted a summary on younghands. It's not as comprehensive as I;'d like… but i am getting better at capturing tasks and stuff from the discussions here. | [00:30] |
| shrysr: | I guess it should also include plans for next week. | [00:31] |
| shrysr: | I did. | [00:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I rated you yesterday so now you have access to more of deedbot's functionality, use it wisely; esp note that you can !!up yourself in #trilema but note that speaking there before you really know your way comes with the danger of negrating and being turfed out | [03:56] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: re log eater, you know, it's not the worse one can be but the…digestion is the more important part there, as it were | [08:03] |
| diana_coman: | re picture and updates of a blog post: the natural "update" is either another post linking to the old one or a comment; only where there really is a good reason, I'd go actually changing the post content as such and even then, in most cases it's an addition rather than a change (even if something is obsolete/to be deleted, it can be marked as such rather than removed) | [08:06] |
| diana_coman: | the main reason being that deleting stuff you once wrote doesn't actually have much benefit for you (if it even has any) but it has some significant potential downsides (e.g. people linked to it and/or come back looking for that particular part of it and…it's gone, not even marked or anything) | [08:08] |
| diana_coman: | from a purely technical perspective though, once I publish it, from my point of view it lives there and in the backups of the whole blog/site | [08:08] |
| diana_coman: | I still keep the text files but more as drafts/different sort of backups rather than anything else | [08:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do get into the habit of checking your moderation queue on your blog, wtf is this | [09:02] |
| diana_coman: | and then read in #trilema Mircea's feedback and answer his questions. | [09:03] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: actually, i did not go through mp's article before i wrote it… but i just did and I can see why he says that particular point is utter fucking non sense | [11:46] |
| shrysr: | in fact, my first instinct or thoughts were actually aligned to that article. but somehow… it still came out as 'meaningless', maybe because I think – my requirements in a situation are best known only to me, even if I endeavour to define it clearly. Relying on A's opinion (rating) about whether to trust B – is useful if they have had dealings with them, but this still does not translate as an absolute | [11:54] |
| shrysr: | as to whether I can trust B. Perhaps saying entirely 'meaningless' is incorrect. i.e i'm saying that i think individual evaluation is needed, irrespective of any WoT ratings. | [11:55] |
| shrysr: | shrysr: lol… i will get into the habit of checking the moderation queue. | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I *had* given you the reference before, so not going through it was pretty …dumb, you know? | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | the point there is that you use the WoT to get the information *you* need in order to calculate *your* trust in a person | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | A's trust in them doesn't feed in as such, no, how could it | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: a clear structure can help you loads to stay on track, you know? so you don't end up like that, starting with the right idea but then entirely ignoring it because you got sidetracked or whatever | [12:55] |
| shrysr: | yes | [14:07] |
| shrysr: | i;m trying to explain what led me to think ratings are ultimately meaningless in the new post. Hey I checked out the canonical post right after you gave me the link… i did not finish reading it then. not that its a valid excuse.. but i think i got the whole thing, but did not capture my thought process well.. | [14:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: honestly, it sounds like you have the right direction as it were but you lack the discipline & structure to stick with it and you end up on a random-walk instead of a clear thought process | [14:24] |
| diana_coman: | at any rate, up yourself in #trilema and at the very least thank Mircea for this feedback + answer his questions. | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | you get to practice !!up too | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | I'll be around the next hour or so | [14:25] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you can paste a link to the logs in #trilema and the bot in there will quote it as in : http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-28#1925199 -> it's because of … | [14:28] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: okay yes – i intend to respond to mp on trilema. | [14:29] |
| shrysr: | i just did. | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | good. | [14:45] |
| diana_coman: | and well done on voicing yourself | [14:46] |
| shrysr: | hehe thanks.. | [14:50] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: The relationship with a person, and your opinion of said person, i.e everything constituting any connection between you and somebody in your WoT is reduced to a single number. This means that the definition of the number is obviously variable from person to person. So when I view a graph reaching to a person of interest X – the number need not indicate the increased probability of the | [15:26] |
| shrysr: | presence of any thing I require from X. | [15:26] |
| diana_coman: | I suspect what you mean re "meaningless" is that "ratings as numbers are meaningless *by themselves*" | [15:27] |
| diana_coman: | which yes, doh. | [15:27] |
| diana_coman: | the trouble with the second part seems to be that you still carry some model that doesn't quite fit the task | [15:29] |
| diana_coman: | what you require is information; how does probability come into it? | [15:30] |
| shrysr: | http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Dib4Q/?raw=true | [15:40] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ^ | [15:40] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: your "universal" seems to mean "irrespective of persons involved" which ….no, of course not, how could it? | [15:41] |
| diana_coman: | basically any instrument will "help" only to the extent that you can extract usefulness out of it | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | there is no "universal" instrument, think of it, what would that be? | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: did you get to read the 2nd trilema article on the wot? re attacks? | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | in your concrete example, the trouble rests with ….Z, not at all with the WoT nor with the other 2; basically Z made *very poor verging on dumbass* use of the wot if all he asked (of people he did not know at all!) was "is p a good pimp?" | [15:45] |
| shrysr: | no no thats all Z got as response | [15:46] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: 2nd article ? no ? | [15:47] |
| diana_coman: | he either did not ask enough/correctly-formulated questions or he should have discarded then those ratings as meaningless basically; think of it: you ask 2 strangers "is X good?" wtf will the answer actually tell you? | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | basically you designed there a popularity contest, not a way to extract information | [15:48] |
| shrysr: | lol >> I shd have mentioned Z had a verbose questionnaire which X and Y skipped and responded "P rocks" | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | let me fish that for you, it shows an actual attack as opposed to your basic misuse-case | [15:49] |
| diana_coman: | it matters, you know? if I ask you specific questions and you answer with generic advertisment, the conclusion is I will negrate you for being an ad-machine | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | and depending on whether you are in turn rated by the advertised party, I might negrate *them* too for being most likely scammers | [15:50] |
| diana_coman: | you see? plenty of information in there but yes, it depends on the skill of the one looking for it | [15:51] |
| diana_coman: | basically the WoT won't help dumbasses *at all* | [15:51] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: here it is http://trilema.com/2014/advanced-wot-course-how-the-wot-is-attacked-and-how-it-defends-itself/ | [15:53] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: I hope you're following the discussion in trilema too :D | [15:55] |
| shrysr: | yes i did… i get it. I do, but somehow – I can't 'believe' the WoT ratings. Yes, despite being a couple of weeks, one cannot say it is impossible that i wd rate you a 10… however, why shd it not be interpreted that I'm just an impulsive dumbass whos ratings dont mean much? Somebody who rated me -1 would think so… somebody who rated me +5 would probably not. THe numbers mean different things to | [16:14] |
| shrysr: | different people – and therefore cannot be translated as a 'trust' for any specific interaction ? | [16:14] |
| diana_coman: | how does that "therefore" follow there? | [16:18] |
| diana_coman: | there is no requirement to "believe" anything, that's the point | [16:19] |
| diana_coman: | so one X thinks shrysr is an impulsive dumbass; so ..what? | [16:20] |
| diana_coman: | are you fighting there some deep-drilled "fairness" thing ? | [16:22] |
| diana_coman: | i.e. it's "not fair" | [16:23] |
| diana_coman: | it's *because* the numbers mean different things to different people (i.e. depending on *context*) that *a* number can serve as indicator of *one* specific interaction | [16:24] |
| diana_coman: | not for any, not universal, quite deliberately *not* that | [16:24] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: nope. not worried about "not fair" | [16:25] |
| diana_coman: | good for you then; but you keep circling this "universal" thing and I can't (yet) see why/where it's got its hooks in you | [16:25] |
| diana_coman: | so… what's bothering you at the fact that it's not universal? | [16:27] |
| diana_coman: | think also from the other side: if it were universal, it follows that *all* possible interactions between people *have to* fit …20 numbers? | [16:27] |
| shrysr: | yes >>> and thats not possible right? | [16:28] |
| shrysr: | no >>it is Said to be universal in the canonical article….or atleast universal in the sense that you will know it wont work fo ryou | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | not without significant loss of meaning, yes; therefore (basic proof here!) the assumption is wrong aka "universal" | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | lol, don't mix universal, yo! | [16:29] |
| diana_coman: | i.e. *what* is or isn't universal | [16:30] |
| shrysr: | see "The important parts here are the easiest to overlook : " in the canonical article ? | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do the right thing when you reference something: select the part you mean and then provide the link | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | your referencing so far is a *pain* | [16:31] |
| shrysr: | I thought there was only one canonical article !! http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/ | [16:32] |
| diana_coman: | yes; if you select a part of it, the link will change to provide a specific hook to *that* part | [16:33] |
| shrysr: | how do i link to a particular part of the blog article ?? | [16:33] |
| shrysr: | really ?? | [16:33] |
| diana_coman: | (moreover: even if there IS only one thing, you should provide it rather than ask the other person to find it) | [16:33] |
| shrysr: | holy fuck… i did not know this | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/#selection-197.0-221.3 | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yep, I mentioned it before | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | i thought it worked for the logs! | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | damn | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | heh | [16:34] |
| shrysr: | ok that makes things SOOOO MUCH better | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: tell me from your selection *what* is said to be "universal" ? | [16:35] |
| shrysr: | The WoT process | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | aha, the *process* | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | NOT the meaning of each number ffs | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | now, what is this process that we are talking about? | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | it's not really "the wot process" but the process of finding out something about an unknown party using the WoT | [16:36] |
| diana_coman: | there is no wot process; the wot is not a process but a …graph | [16:36] |
| shrysr: | ok yes, understood.. I mean the process of rating people and relying on WoT to put together information that helps you with dealing with an unknown entity. | [16:38] |
| shrysr: | this entire process | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | perhaps a simple analogy: the WoT is a tool like any other, like a microscope if you wish; now what is "the microscope process"?? | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | sure, you will follow a process to find something out with a microscope but it's *your* process | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose that's part of the thing: you see the process as predefined and external to you, somehow secreted/imposed by the wot | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | it's not; and the quality of the results will depend more on you (i.e. whose process are we talking about) than on the wot | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | basically the WoT is a block of marble + a chisel; if it's Michelangelo's process with those tools, one can get David; if it's some 5 year old with the same tools, well… | [16:44] |
| shrysr: | ok | [16:44] |
| shrysr: | this feels acceptable to me. | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | lol, feels. | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: as a side for now here , be careful with feel vs think ; here's a bit on that http://ossasepia.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ | [16:47] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: ok > how do I make the selection to URL thingy work for my blog ?? | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: note that there is some trouble in that the original thing (which is working on younghands.club too) relies on the structure that apparently is sometimes different on different browsers; so there is the original thing described at http://trilema.com/2015/that-spiffy-selection-thing/ AND the latest find of the idiotic browser behaviour + a solution for it http://trilema.com/2019/proper-html-linking-the-crisis-the-solution-the-resolution-conclusion/ | [16:56] |
| shrysr: | okies.. I will go through that. | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: btw, comment on http://younghands.club/2019/07/28/week-2-progress-summary-3/ | [17:02] |
| shrysr: | ok i revise my statement to I 'think' that is acceptable. But I don't see the process as external — I understand that each person has his own process and comes up with a number. But the processes could be totally irrelevant to the other, and I could be potentially blind to this fact despite thorough investigation. If we consider my earlier example, then can the whole process still be considered universal | [17:08] |
| shrysr: | as per http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/#selection-215.0-217.125 ? Z need not know Why WoT failed. | [17:08] |
| shrysr: | i.e why the whole process failed | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you are still confusing 2 processes there: 1 is "how do I give whatever ratings I give"; 2 is "how do I find out useful information about an unknown party from the wot" | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | both 1 and 2 are universal in the sense that they *apply* to all possible cases (i.e. they cover them) but not in the sense that they consist of predefined steps/recipe | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | the easy analogy is sex – it's universal aka can be done between any 2 people but not in the sense that it's predefined or with the same meaning or whatever other fixed quantity you try to attach to it | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: makes sense? | [17:18] |
| shrysr: | Ok – yes. you are saying that there are no pre-defined steps for both 1 and 2, and it will vary from person to person, depending on how they use their WoT. Ok. I'm good with that. But – I'm not yet good with the definition of universal in the canonical article selection. | [17:27] |
| shrysr: | because it also goes forward to say "…If it worked you know it worked, and of what quality its results are. If it failed you know it failed, and why and how come. " | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | what's your trouble there? | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | "if the sex was satisfactory, you know it was and just *how* satisfactory; if it wasn't, you know it wasn't and why and how come" | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | the point there is: you have the means to *also* evaluate an outcome (yet another process!) | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | or in other words, the *absence* of information is some information in itself in the WoT context | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | at one extreme – if P is not in the WoT, that tells you something about them already | [17:34] |
| shrysr: | So in my example, Z would know AFTER his inteaction with P that P does not rock. and does not house exotic whores. But can it be entirely Z's fault that he could not know this before hand via some custom complex procedure in WoT? Can any procedure no matter how complex (connected to data from the WoT) insure him from failure? Can the system Ensure that he will find out WHY it happened? how does it help | [17:36] |
| shrysr: | him know that X preferred blondes and Y did not give a shit who/what he fucks – | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: ah, so that's your "not fair", the failure-insurance; the world never hands a failure-insurance, there is no such thing | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | the trouble with your Z is that he doesn't have a clear understanding of what "a pimp that rocks" means basically; that's his failure and nothing to do with the WoT; I suppose at one extreme you can think of the WoT as a sort of Oracle – if you ask stupid questions, you'll get useless answers | [17:43] |
| shrysr: | oh lol! I did say that Z prepared a questionnaire | [17:44] |
| shrysr: | lol | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | but from all your "counterexamples" , he had no idea how to interpret the data basically | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | it's not even that he needs a questionnaire; he just needs to A. clearly define what HE means by "pimp that rocks" B. look for the data that either supports or rejects the hypothesis "P rocks" | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | absence of some required bit of data for "pimp that rocks" is automatically supporting "P does not rock" (some parts may directly imply it even, not just supporting) | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | possibly the usual "exceptionalism" trips you over as in "oh, he IS actually a great pimp, just it so happens he's new and so nobody yet knows him in the WoT" | [17:48] |
| shrysr: | yes that too | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | there is no such thing; by the definition of terms, if nobody yet knows him then and THEREFORE he is NOT actually a great pimp | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | he might become one *in the future* | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | but he's not, NOW | [17:49] |
| shrysr: | right.. | [17:49] |
| shrysr: | ok | [17:50] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you all right there? lol | [17:54] |
| shrysr: | :) yes. | [17:55] |
| diana_coman: | good then :) | [17:56] |
#ossasepia Logs for 27 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | hello zmk | [13:19] |
| zmk: | hello diana_coman | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | why are you here zmk ? | [13:20] |
| zmk: | i decided to come over and work with you on what matters before http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-05#1848157 happens | [13:20] |
| zmk: | no opportunity ever lasts forever | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | that much is true: it doesn't. | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | who are you, zmk ? | [13:22] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: yo, did you perish *that* fast? | [13:34] |
| zmk: | my name is zmk. i am a log eater. i speak english and spanish | [13:34] |
| diana_coman: | well, if you go with "my name is zmk", I'll give you a name too, at least make it clear | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | what do you do other than log reading? | [13:35] |
| diana_coman: | do you write online anywhere? | [13:36] |
| zmk: | i work as a "software engineer" whatever that is | [13:37] |
| zmk: | and no, i do not write online anywhere. i do not have an identity yet | [13:38] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: fine, you get a shot at it at least, let's see what you can make out of it; make yourself a RSA key pair and register with deedbot; ping me when you're done with it and I'll make you an account on younghands.club; you'll get some basic homework to get you started and then I'll see how that goes. | [13:45] |
| zmk: | got it | [13:47] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: you can /msg deedbot from anywhere. | [14:16] |
| zmk: | i was getting deedboot: No such nick/channel | [14:17] |
| diana_coman: | well yes, it's a bot not a boot | [14:18] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you can link your key-page from deedbot, you know? (at that "connect" page on yer blog) | [14:19] |
| zmk: | !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WfbSc/?raw=true | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: either do /msg deedbot !!register … | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | or say it in the window/tab with deedbot | [14:21] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: that's not the right thing | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: what operating system are you on? | [14:43] |
| zmk: | african os | [14:43] |
| zmk: | a.k.a. ubuntu | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: follow the steps from www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup ; the http://deedbot.org/help.html may also help | [14:44] |
| zmk: | diana_coman: done | [14:59] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: congrats; I hope you took notes, as you'll document this part as your first post on younghands.club | [15:04] |
| diana_coman: | with what you did wrong first and why | [15:04] |
| zmk: | yes, i did | [15:05] |
| diana_coman: | good; zmk are you sure you don't already have an actual name? | [15:08] |
| zmk: | yes. btw, i made rookie mistake and pasted a test key i did not set up email or comment on. can i eventually replace it? | [15:11] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: email doesn't matter in the slightest and you'll survive without comment too; unlikely to change your key as such. | [15:12] |
| zmk: | great then | [15:13] |
| diana_coman: | zmk: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ipSCT/?raw=true | [15:33] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: re: using key-page link from deedbot – yes, i know. I will be adding that. | [19:35] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: I'm coming along with my notes of WoT v/s linked in and understanding WoT. Will post soon. | [19:56] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: so I've rated deedbot, rated you, but I cannot find my nick/graph when I search on the deedbot site. | [23:30] |
| shrysr: | i mean I don't see me in wot.deedbot.org | [23:31] |
| shrysr: | because i haven't recvd any ratings ? | [23:31] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: so linked in vs the WoT : http://s.ragavan.co/2019/07/the-wot-versus-linked-in/ | [23:33] |
| shrysr: | i could add a few pictures to aid clarity.. but i haven't dug into the xml-rpc protocol and a good workflow for all that. THis was actually a lot more convenient with hugo. | [23:37] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: so that article includes the WoT writeup | [23:38] |
| shrysr: | added the key-page link from deedbot on the connect page | [23:43] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: how do you handle pictures and say, later updates of a blog post? You write the content on a text editor, but do you discard that file ? | [23:45] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: why does email not matter ? the email and comment help you distinguish between keys in an easier way? | [23:47] |
| shrysr: | don't matter in terms of the encryption you meant I suppose | [23:48] |
| shrysr: | hehe I suppose I would not want to describe myself as a log eater. :) But it's only now that I;ve been exposed to the concept of learning from logs. | [23:52] |
#ossasepia Logs for 26 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, in desperate search of meaning and yes, it tends to hit like a ton of bricks; (matrix is high on visual effects but not all that clear re substance, lol) | [02:33] |
#ossasepia Logs for 25 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: sorted, it works now; there was a known issue caused by the version of php running on the server breaking silently some of wordpress functionality; I hadn't realised that the patch for it hadn't been applied, I've patched it now and updated your post with proper html tags to check everything is fine | [03:15] |
| diana_coman: | let me know if it misbehaves again | [03:16] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: okz! | [09:25] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: got the permalink thingy enabled in nginx, and enabled https! https://s.ragavan.co/2019/07/implementing-https-lets-encrypt/ | [15:10] |
| diana_coman: | heh, certificate authority, lolz | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | but the blog looks good :) | [17:05] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: why lolz! | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | what authority do those "certificate authorities" *actually* have? | [17:16] |
| diana_coman: | anyways: why do you actually need to enable https? | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | as homework: what does "I need to demonstrate control over my domain" say about the entities involved? | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: your documentation efforts are useful as exercises but do note that a *lot* of "web" is …fluff, to put it mildly | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: here, have a look at this thread in #trilema as it's pretty much related, see if you can follow it http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-25#1924635 | [17:25] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: i did notice that your website does not have https. My first gripe was that it seems https is enabled by default in browsers, and so I had to keep correcting this to "http". By enabling https > i am basically encrypting the connection between the client (browser) and the server. isnt this a good thing ? | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | the question with defaults should always be: *who's* defaults are they? | [17:31] |
| shrysr: | hmm firefox is using the system proxy settings. COmpany's ? | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: the main trouble around all those "good things" is that they rarely are exactly what they claim (by now it's almost impossible for them to be, given the huge stack of chairs on which they rely) | [17:34] |
| diana_coman: | so you know, to start with, why does firefox decide for you on *your* computer | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: here's a bit: http://ossasepia.com/2017/12/07/introducing-eucrypt/#selection-105.113-105.411 | [17:36] |
| shrysr: | they shouldnt. I would prefer they do not. I would have guessed – to make it easy for dumbasses to use without any fiddling / exploration whatsoever. | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | re difference between claiming "a good thing" and actually being able to deliver the substance of that | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | you are *always* better off in the dark, cold, painful truth than lulled by a "good" lie | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | for one thing, what exactly do you send to your readers that needs to be encrypted? what, is the content of your blog secret now? | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | and for the other thing, does https actually give you any guarantee of "security" ? (other than a "certificate" ofc, it's not even paper, so presumably you can even get 2 for 1 or some deal) | [17:39] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: yes, to make it easy for dumbasses to use indeed; the trouble is that the moment you make it easy for a lot of dumbasses to use something, that something will inevitably be dumbassed and quite quickly | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | that old thing is still true: *everything* has a cost; including "making it easy for dumbasses to" anything | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: do you drive? | [17:42] |
| shrysr: | ok. Nothing on my blog is secret. But doesnt HTTPS protect the client as well ?? | [17:42] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: yes i do | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | do you own a car? | [17:42] |
| shrysr: | have to :D or walk. | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | heh; now the q is: do you actually know how it works and why ? when you bought it, did you actually get its *technical* manual too? | [17:43] |
| shrysr: | well to some good extent yes. | [17:44] |
| shrysr: | i got a user manual. not like a documentation o | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | myeah, you know why? "to make it easy for dumbasses to drive too"; last time I saw a detailed technical manual for a car (and therefore was able to literally take the car pretty much apart and put it back together again – with others ofc but possible in a day ffs – was back in the '90s) | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | myeah, "user manual": push that button and it clucks, then this button and it blinks" "oh, but what happened to my car that now it seems to blink both left and right at the same time???" (not kidding, I had someone ask me *this* for real; because they… had no idea what half the stuff in there did or why) | [17:48] |
| shrysr: | okay – i totally see what you mean. But what about the ACME protocols tests? Proof that the domain belongs to me? I dont remember using my public key anywhere. But i think a key was generated in the process. | [17:50] |
| diana_coman: | back to the "protect the client" (note that there is still the assumption that https actually delivers on what is says though this is not true) – 1. what/how are you exactly protecting them? 2. why? 3. why would you even want to be read by someone who expects *you* to "protect" them without even knowing you, just like that because …what? | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | re cars do realise that it's not just "I know what it does" – it literally makes you a *better driver* if you actually understand how the thing works! | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | unsurprisingly, but from what I saw at recent driving schools, it seems to have been "forgotten" | [17:53] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you'll need to re-state the q re protocols, I don't get what you're asking there | [17:55] |
| shrysr: | absolutely. I agree with you that it would make me a better driver. but is it practically possible to break down every single thing you own AND put it back… AND not suffer (a lot) meanwhile? I got my first motorbike in college… I wanted to modify it. After all – i was supposed to be an automotive design engineer. The whole point of getting the damn bike was to reach the college.. I ended up working | [17:58] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=s.ragavan.co >> i was talking about this. | [17:59] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: well, you get to choose your sufferings :D | [17:59] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: and the tests in section 7 ? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-acme-03#section-7 | [18:00] |
| diana_coman: | right; what's with all that though? i.e.: what's your question? | [18:01] |
| diana_coman: | understand that I couldn't care less if your website was certified by Justin Trudeau personally or whoever Big Inca wears a hat and gives certificates nowadays | [18:02] |
| shrysr: | :)) | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | I'll read your website because you *are* in *my* WoT and if I think there's something wrong with it, I'll tell *you* because it's your website | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | hence your above homework re that sentence: if you *need* to prove you own the domain, first of all you are just submitting to that new master | [18:04] |
| diana_coman: | and ofc, if they own you, it follows they own your domain too, doh. | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | basically that's the whole racket with certificates in general: you lend them authority over your domain in exchange for the shiny stamp that enables dumbasses that "evaluate" based on "does it have the shiny stamp?" to come and spam you, congrats. | [18:14] |
| shrysr: | is still staring at the screen ….. | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | aha, thought of poking you a bit more; and yes, welcome to TMSR :) | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | (they can revoke your certificate too, you realise, right?) | [18:15] |
| shrysr: | yes. I think there is a validity period for it. | [18:16] |
| shrysr: | as well. | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | even assuming they care about the validity period at all when they decide you are not "a nice guy" or whatever "you don't think the right way" | [18:17] |
| shrysr: | Ok > what if you trust me because I am in your WoT and then I give you false / misleading info. Can you sue me ? i presume you can sue the EFF or some 'authority' right? I mean sue, as in – isnt hte point of a government / authority etc (ideally) – to be held accountable? | [18:25] |
| diana_coman: | take it easy, there's a lot there to get through | [18:26] |
| shrysr: | lolz | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | basically in that 1 paragraph you have so many things messed up and mixed up that you can't start discussing it from here, there's a lot deeper you need to go to find some solid ground first | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: did you do already a write-up re what you understand the WoT to be so far? | [18:29] |
| diana_coman: | the next in line would be the concepts of authority and sovereignity I suppose | [18:31] |
| diana_coman: | note that it's not that I trust you because you are in my WoT, that's not how it works | [18:32] |
| shrysr: | not a write up yet. All i think I understand now is that you/or a member in the WOT would endorse me as a person you 'actually' know. Use your private key to sign my public key. The more ppl do so – the higher the chances that I am who I say I am ? | [18:36] |
| diana_coman: | not quite, it's not just a version of "certificates" | [18:37] |
| diana_coman: | for one thing, the WoT is personal | [18:37] |
| diana_coman: | for the other, it's always *weighted* | [18:37] |
| diana_coman: | i.e. "he's in my WoT" is a shortcut really and I suppose confusing for a newcomer | [18:38] |
| diana_coman: | technically, anyone connected to me (even if indirectly ) is "in my WoT", sure | [18:38] |
| diana_coman: | think of it this way: all the people you know in real life are directly in your "meat WoT" | [18:39] |
| diana_coman: | does this mean you now *trust* them all? | [18:39] |
| diana_coman: | and then think of those you don't directly know but can indirectly get to know via your friends or relatives – those 2nd layer are also "in your WoT" of sorts | [18:40] |
| diana_coman: | and again: do you trust all those? ofc not | [18:40] |
| diana_coman: | the WoT is to a large extent precisely making visible and accessible this sort of people-network | [18:41] |
| diana_coman: | i.e. people I know and what I think of them; | [18:41] |
| diana_coman: | now what I think of them matters for me, sure, but it's not something directly cumulative like that "if 10 people know shrysr then he is shrysr" what nonsense | [18:42] |
| diana_coman: | the point is: if diana_coman says shrysr actually has a working head on his shoulders, then *this* sentence will get in turn different valuations from different people | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | those who have diana_coman in their wot as "that bitch" will say "that shrysr is bad" | [18:44] |
| diana_coman: | those who don't have diana_coman in their wot at all, can't really say anything meaningful, it's all a sort of ???? anyway | [18:45] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: questions? | [18:45] |
| shrysr: | wait >>> they can have you as 'that bitch' in their WOT or in their head ? | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | in their wot, what | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | remember, it's weigthed; weights are numbers, sure but their *meaning* is assigned by each user | [18:46] |
| diana_coman: | the WoT is *not* automated nor possible to automate, no | [18:47] |
| diana_coman: | no more than you could (or want to) automate human relationships: the WoT is simply the (necessarily incomplete) representation of relationships | [18:48] |
| shrysr: | sorry – my connection is so bad today… I havent setup mosh yet. its taking ages to type with the lag and hindering my response. literally reconnecting between sentences. | [18:49] |
| diana_coman: | sucks | [18:49] |
| shrysr: | yes… todays been the worst actually. and the convo is so damn interesting. | [18:50] |
| shrysr: | LIFE | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | if you explore the WoT you'll find for instance negative ratings too | [18:50] |
| shrysr: | yes i saw those | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | realise that you can't meaningfully "add" ratings | [18:51] |
| diana_coman: | as in : you have a 2 and a 1 and so your total is 3 | [18:51] |
| diana_coman: | that's a bit like saying shrysr's mum loves him and his boss finds him ok so overall he's a good guy to trust with my house keys | [18:52] |
| shrysr: | and its(WOT) is NOT like that right ? | [18:52] |
| diana_coman: | it stands for Web of Trust | [18:53] |
| diana_coman: | so English rules kind of say WoT but this really doesn't matter, lolz | [18:53] |
| diana_coman: | will not give certificate of correct and proper writing of WoT anyway | [18:54] |
| shrysr: | GLad ! but with my lag… i am glad to be able to type something! lol. ok > so how is WoT different from Linked in? | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | ahahaha | [18:55] |
| diana_coman: | I think that's an excellent homework for you: how is the WoT different from Linked In? | [18:56] |
| diana_coman: | looking forward to read your output on that:D | [18:56] |
| shrysr: | :D I am so sure you are. | [18:56] |
| shrysr: | i wil do it… it is intriguing. | [18:57] |
| diana_coman: | good for you :) | [18:57] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [18:58] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: it struck me that… I was in desperate search of something, and found you.. and then swallowed the red pill. LOL. | [20:17] |
#ossasepia Logs for 24 Jul 2019
| diana_coman: | shrysr: you do know that mp-wp has a html editor, right? (fwiw I never use the other one precisely because of wasting time formatting and clicking buttons) | [02:30] |
| diana_coman: | re mac : well, ~anything is a better option than windows, but what's that going to do; and note that it's not the price the problem either but the fact that you are *meant to not own* your stuff on either system | [02:31] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw I did have a mac laptop + a desktop some 10 years ago – they were slick and good to look at (to the point that I found some of it distracting when needing to work) and otherwise 3 times hotter and noisier than any other hardware of similar or even greater power | [02:34] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, almost all my computers around here are at least 10 years old (though none of them are macs) | [02:34] |
| diana_coman: | so: I'm not necessarily anti-mac, just saying that 1. it'll be a pain 2. you don't own it, it owns you | [02:36] |
| diana_coman: | re xml-rpc, I'll have a look but it's very likely that it "won't work" because your setup forces you into "latest only" ; a good time to note that *everything* has a cost and convenience often costs way more than you imagine | [02:43] |
| diana_coman: | note that just as it's convenient for you to upload your post using xmlrpc.php, so it's convenient for an attacker to use that same opening for DDOS and/or brute-force attack | [02:46] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, back to the original question: your post on your website says you *published on younghands.club* – hence my question, did you actually publish? or just intended but in the end not (then update the text!!) or what happened. | [02:47] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: I updated the text right after seeing your message yesterday. http://s.ragavan.co/?p=51 | [09:16] |
| shrysr: | shrysr: Last week, I actually headed straight to younghands to publish.. then I realised I had to copy paste.. and then I thought what if I want to update the post – I'd have to do all that again. | [09:23] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: "worth noting that Cloudflare offer the above for free" – you realise that there is nothing "for free" ever, do you. | [09:28] |
| shrysr: | yes. there is always a cost. they get access to any traffic to my site | [09:29] |
| diana_coman: | re posting: post on your blog since you made yourself one, sure; do backups and all that; maybe simply add 1-para summary + link on younghands.club; you get a link to your content and it's easier to follow anyway (+ you won't need to change *that*) | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | eh, so "for free" my foot; basically there's nothing for free and if you don't know who pays, it's probably you being sold | [09:31] |
| shrysr: | :D | [09:31] |
| diana_coman: | in the spirit of "pillage+rape is good for a school anyway" I'm considering turning on even the xmlrpc thing | [09:31] |
| diana_coman: | at least if it's a pillage party, let's make it fully so | [09:32] |
| shrysr: | re: xml-rpc… :1 it seemed short and sweet ! | [11:01] |
| shrysr: | posts are for human consumption, but the URL ? | [11:01] |
| diana_coman: | if you go the route "url is for machine" then you should use the ip directly, neh? | [11:02] |
| shrysr: | :D | [11:02] |
| diana_coman: | url is how you find the post so I'd say yes, human consumption too | [11:02] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, "short and sweet" is mostly a matter of not looking hard enough of the thing :)) | [11:03] |
| shrysr: | :)) !! cmon.. it does have atleast a sense of 'efficiency' doesnt it ! I was actually setting up the long format url when I looked at it and felt unsure whether I needed it… i also was wondering why it had to be 'enabled' in nginx and there was a fleeting but vague thought of 'security??', before i 'moved on'. | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | heh :) | [11:08] |
| shrysr: | so yes..lol. ur right. i did not look hard enough… I'm glad in a way…since I got to hear your wisdom on the matter ! | [11:08] |
| diana_coman: | eh, wisdom = total sum of bumps and scrapes and worse one survived so far, you know | [11:09] |
| diana_coman: | shrysr: now you got your site up and yours posts on and apparently can afford to stop futzing with the web part for a bit: what will you focus on as number 1 priority next week? (this week you can tie up loose ends since you kept collecting new ones as far as I can see) | [11:10] |
| shrysr: | diana_coman: v.py / RSA / Eulora ? | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | that sounds like 3 number 1 priorities? lolz | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | take v.py as number 1, go through it and make notes/ask, poke it, figure it out; for variety, get set up and going with eulora too, sure, that should fit in alongside; rsa can wait a bit atm, I'd say | [11:14] |
| shrysr: | :)) i was providing potential options to fill in space while actually waiting for your directive :P | [11:15] |
| shrysr: | okay. | [11:15] |
| shrysr: | i'm on it. | [11:15] |
| shrysr: | actually look fwd to it. i don't know why yet. | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | cool, don't forget to take notes as you go and post them at the end of the day. | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | heh, good :) | [11:16] |
| shrysr: | yes. | [11:18] |
| shrysr: | It comes out as plain text. I entered in links like: <a href="https://s.ragavan.co/?p=51">setting up new GPG keys</a>. | [20:26] |
| shrysr: | I mean – the links are all removed. They are not available as plain text either. | [20:28] |
| shrysr: | Ok, i tried just the URL without HTML – still not working. You can see the post. | [20:32] |
| shrysr: | Interestingly – i was able to send an encrypted mail with using Emacs – mu4e. However, it seems the email address I send to – has to be available in my gpg keys. Which is logical. | [21:38] |
- :( reading up now… did not even consider this. sucks.
[09:32] shrysr: re: summary + link on younghands … yes. will do. thats a nice solution. [09:34] diana_coman: heh, re dns, here's the reference for that: http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/ [09:37] shrysr: diana_coman: how do you write your posts? Directly in the WP editor? I'm on younghands and see that clicking on the 'html' tab doesnt do anything, but when I save the draft, the text is then enclosed within html? [09:40] diana_coman: shrysr: there, to test your comments too [09:41] diana_coman: go to your admin dashboard and change also the links format to the saner date/title [09:42] diana_coman: because this "p488" is not helping anyone [09:42] diana_coman: hm, I usually write them offline in a text editor and then just plonk them in there; let me see maybe it's some artefact of that installation and/or your author's role [09:43] diana_coman: shrysr: do you have both tabs visual/html? [09:44] diana_coman: if you click on them, it should switch from one to another [09:44] shrysr: yes I see both tabs. HTML is greyed out. presuming the visual mode is active – but there's just a text input box, with no formatting option. [09:45] shrysr: and like i said nothing happens when i click on html [09:45] diana_coman: so you click on html and it remains grayed out? [09:45] shrysr: yes [09:45] diana_coman: ugh; apparently it's to do with your account's role, I'll need to look at it [09:46] shrysr: but when I save the draft – whatever text was in the box gets enclosed in html tags [09:46] shrysr: as I just typed hello…. >> saved draft and then I see <p> hello </p> [09:46] diana_coman: that's what the visual one. [09:46] diana_coman: shrysr: log out and back in [09:47] diana_coman: I've deactivated the visual editor for you so hopefully you get only the html one [09:47] shrysr: yea. no tabs now [09:48] diana_coman: let me know if there's more trouble [09:48] shrysr: diana_coman: will do. and thanks for the comment! and no – I don't recall ever saying that the tutorial said so… that feels so sad. That being said.. I can improve tons w.r.t understanding each decision and being more skeptical. [09:56] shrysr: diana_coman: re: mac /windows : what do you do to not be 'owned' ? [09:57] shrysr: diana_coman: re: saner date/title > i tried that, and remember finding that this has to be enabled in nginx. [10:01] diana_coman: shrysr: for starters, I build my own machines (and if it's not built by me, then I'll take it apart first anyway); pretty much same for software (and if /when I need to use shit, well, there's a dedicated "toilet-pc" for that) [10:01] diana_coman: note that a lot of effort around in tmsr is precisely to enable one to actually own his machine/game/whatever [10:02] shrysr: diana_coman: i like thatt.. [10:04] diana_coman: it's to a large extent against all the cloudflare&co crowd (it's not convenient!!!11) but in a nutshell I suppose you could think of it this way: if you own it, then it WILL do whatever *you* ask of it (or you blow it up) [10:04] diana_coman: the moment you have to "oh, it requires Cloudflare/https/blabla enabled" aka you do what *it* asks, it works the other way around, it's owning your ass [10:04] diana_coman: btw that's precisely what V enables one to do too: to own the code you run, there's no "oh, it requires now this or that dependency" – if it's not a change proposed by someone you trust (i.e. in your wot), it doesn't even get to bother you with its existence; and even if it's proposed by someone you trust, you get to decide IF you want it anyway [10:08] shrysr: diana_coman: its hard to deal with building a desktop computer in my 'mobile' situation. I got my MBP 2018 in march. i spent months deliberating… especially because it was so damn expensive. I will admit that it felt like being a slave… I had actually hoped to use a thin client and then a nice server in the cloud. [10:09] diana_coman: on the plus side though, a desktop computer nowadays is not that huge anymore necessarily and it's a few hundred, probably way cheaper anyway (note that you don't *need* and probably not even want the latest bla-bla) [10:10] diana_coman: the thing with the nice server in the cloud is that it's …in the cloud, you know? [10:11] shrysr: yes. [10:11] diana_coman: and yes, I'm sure it is hard, it *is* hard, yes. [10:11] diana_coman: anyways, re eulora – it has *very* low graphics requirements really [10:12] diana_coman: iirc someone even got it running on a virtual machine (though I wouldn't recommend that) [10:12] diana_coman: you can totally run it with on-board graphics for sure [10:12] shrysr: ok. Hmm. One thing I can do is install linux on my 2010 mbp… that way my 2018 stays intact for the occassional MS office pain. [10:15] diana_coman: it does sound like you already have at least the public-toilet machine aka your mac (the tmsr term of art for those is crapple) [10:17] diana_coman: note that I don't mind it in the slightest if you go and install eulora on mac – actually it's even better, since so far I don't know of anyone who managed to get it working on mac :D [10:18] shrysr: rofl don't i have enough to deal with [10:26] diana_coman: well, just in case you didn't :D [10:28] shrysr: crapple :D its funny.. by the time you cough up money for a mac… i guess its natural to to resent, no matter how much you recognise being a slave. [10:30] diana_coman: shrysr: you are at least honest enough with yourself to recognise it, hence you can at least laugh at it too; most "customers" won't admit it. [10:32] shrysr: At best, to be fair – it's been a love hate relationship. I've not been able 'hate' linux per se. For example, i started used i3wm a few months ago and it was a revelation. I almost did not want to go back to the mac… on many days I've wanted to give it all up…. have a simple, powerful system that works. That's probably a utopian definition, but maybe not ? [10:34] diana_coman: shrysr: as stated it's not much of a definition (hint: what is "works"?) [10:35] diana_coman: fwiw I don't hate any sort of assorted bits, what did 0/1 ever did to me, lol; people yes, if you find actual persons worth hating might even do you good (hint: perfect focus) [10:37] shrysr: "works" is ambiguous. I'm unable to define it clearly, and I think I'll write a post thinking aloud. [10:42] diana_coman: good idea [10:45] shrysr: is a saner date/title thingy necessary? I can enable that, and actually was in the process, when I felt – why not just plain numbers. its easier to refer to ? [10:49] shrysr: i.e the default [10:49] diana_coman: shrysr: how is it easier to refer to? [10:52] diana_coman: it loses some information with what gain exactly? [10:52] diana_coman: posts on the blog are text for human consumption not numbers for machine consumption, that's the point there [10:53] shrysr: as in a relative link would probably just be /?p=78 .. easier to cross reference older articles and say, I remember today's post is number 79, i just type in the link here… [10:56] diana_coman: but how do you remember that today's post is number x? [10:58] diana_coman: that's precisely the thing – the date you already know, while the number… [10:58] shrysr: I won't remember forever and…….. if i delete and repost, the number changes :[↩] #ossasepia Logs for 23 Jul 2019
diana_coman: not bad, shrysr, congrats on having a site! [04:23] diana_coman: shrysr: you say "published first blog post on younghands.club" – I can't see it, where is it?? [04:31] diana_coman: mac might not be the easiest host for eulora; do you work on macs only or why mac? [04:32] diana_coman: as for pgp, better focus on understanding RSA because that's the part that stays, not the whole mess otherwise (see my EuCrypt series and asciilifeform's FFA) [04:35] shrysr: diana_coman: personal laptop : mac. office > windows + Linux (virtualbox). Don't do much on windows nowadays… as such the mac is the only thing with a gfx card [16:14] shrysr: diana_coman: okay.. I will redirect towards RSA and and go through FFA + EuCrypt. [16:15] shrysr: Re: publishing on younghands – Right now >> I can directly publish from my buffer in Emacs to a WordPress post / page etc – just a few key presses. No manual copy paste / fine tuning needed. Just the same for updating posts too. [16:29] shrysr: Switching to the WP editor (MP-WP or even the newer versions as I saw yesterday) will mean i waste a TON of time in formatting code blocks etc and just about everything, every single time. [16:34] shrysr: As such – I should be able to publish straight to younghands from Emacs and manage multiple blogs. The org2blog uses the xmlrpc.php to connect to WP. Perhaps my URL was wrong…or MP-WP is different – but I could not connect to younghands. may need to connect via SSH to poke around and understand why.It was setup without too many issues on my vps. [16:40] shrysr: diana_coman: hmm.. i see that there is an xmlrpc.php in mp-wp. http://btcbase.org/patches/mp-wp_genesis/hunk/mp-wp/xmlrpc.php [17:01] shrysr: and that xml-rpc is actually a protocol. [17:02] shrysr: diana_coman: okay – what is the url to that file, for my blog or account on younghands? believe i tried variations of younghands.club/shrysr/xmlrpc.php [17:04] shrysr: diana_coman: why mac :D used to be a favorite question. as such, the magic trackpad, easy availability of unix tools… etc. I would opt for Linux completely – but there are some excellent mac only apps like devonthink and a bunch of others, not to mention the issue of MS office on linux. IMO though ridiculously expensive.. the mac is a better option than windows. [17:25] shrysr: also – my earlier workhorse was a 2010 macbook pro… that I got 2nd hand off a friend. Still have it… it worked trouble free for 9 damn years compared to every other laptop I've ever had (2-3 years + some problem or the other) [17:30] shrysr: of course – the old mac was damn nearless without the SSD i had to install in it. [17:32] shrysr: near useless** [17:35] shrysr: god.. i need to setup MOSH for IRC…. the lag is horrible sometimes. [17:36] #ossasepia Logs for 22 Jul 2019
shrysr: diana_coman: i almost got it running. atleast had nginx running. But still dont have wordpress up yet [01:47] shrysr: http://s.ragavan.co/ [01:47] shrysr: or https://s.ragavan.co worked too. [01:48] shrysr: diana_coman: I have my post more or less ready, but it was terribly slow to access wp @ younghands … [01:50] diana_coman: shrysr: use p.bvulpes.com for paste [02:39] diana_coman: shrysr: I think since coming on to IRC and this channel, I feel like I've learnt more in a week than a long time. hehe -> cool :) [02:40] diana_coman: shrysr: diana_coman: you know I have to zoom to 140\% to be able to comfortably read your blog , as well as trilema -> the point is that it zooms well, doesn't it? how much you need to zoom or not depends on your display, it's not something I as blog owner can or should control [02:41] diana_coman: that terribly slow accessing might be worth investigating; maybe have a look and see where the bottleneck is? it might be that your motel wifi is the sort that "works well" but only to local isp/canada stuff or who knows; alternatively, if there really is a problem on pizarro end, I get something to tell them but you need to give me something more concrete than "it was terribly slow" [02:43] diana_coman: shrysr: asciilifeform is the author of loper-os.org; he kindly joined my channel [02:45] diana_coman: re logs, the best way to get to grips would probably be by reading a lot, but it can be a painful start,hence I did not yet set it as task – you still have loads to do [02:46] diana_coman: anyway, if you are keen on that, perhaps start from http://ossasepia.com/category/tmsr/a-week/ and read in parallel the actual log for those weeks, then try your own hand at summarizing what you read; note that it can be extremely time consuming [02:47] diana_coman: shrysr: you know, that s.ragavan.co is not working from here; and ugh cloudflare??? get out of that shit [02:48] diana_coman: re being 31, nice to hear; but do note that "being old enough" has nothing to do with biological age [02:50] diana_coman: this is not a 3-ring binder, checklist-ticking place – each individual is where and what they are based on what they do, not on age, height, sex, whatever else you can tick [02:51] diana_coman: if it burns, use it as motivation to learn even faster [02:52] diana_coman: shrysr: here, re cloudflare and all that: http://trilema.com/2016/the-text-and-the-piddly-recantion/?b=Great&e=shit.#select [04:39] diana_coman: "more or less ready" is top lolz – yo, either it's ready or it's not ready! [04:59] diana_coman: and since I can't see it published, therefore it is NOT READY [05:00] diana_coman: not done even. [05:00] shrysr: diana_coman: almost expected you to say investigate why the access is slow. hehe. I will explore this. Re: reading the logs – noted. [13:45] shrysr: diana_coman: omg – it was all ready!! when something takes that long to load – i usually go to troubleshooting first ! Instead, i figured i could setup the vps …. [13:47] diana_coman: shrysr: link or it ain't ready :D :D [13:48] diana_coman: and no, you publish first and *then* investigate (since publishing burns because look, one day late) [13:48] shrysr: diana_coman: :D ok! ! publish first. re: cloudflare : i will remove cloudflare … that article on docker was funny and illuminating. ENjoyed it and have to read again. Incidentally, I was diving into docker last week and that made it even more relevant. [13:52] diana_coman: heh, good for you. [14:43] diana_coman: and you know, be a bit more prudent with what you dive in or who knows what you catch, lol. [14:58] shrysr: i totally get you. I try to remind myself everyday… That dive was before 'discovering' you on dev.to, btw. As such I find docker and the microservice concept quite exciting and it was long overdue… but as usual everything is still half done. But lol…trilema's article and your point about cloudflare opened my eyes. Why bother with cloudflare before setting up a basic server that I understand, and one [15:10] shrysr: that actually works like i want.. wtf… among many other things. [15:10] shrysr: best … because it IS facinating and tough.. and I want to master it. [15:20] asciilifeform: shrysr: what part did you have headache understanding ? ( ftr asciilifeform wrote the linked v draft ) [15:32] asciilifeform: shrysr: and didja read http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ? it's a more or less complete walkthrough [15:33] shrysr: asciilifeform: not yet, thank you.. i think that will help a lot. I will go through and revert. Per se – not headache. It was totally new.. and a LOT… its safe to say I did not understand anything, and will porbably have to learn a big bunch of other things first… I don't have a clear birds eye view of how things fit and what I am working on. [15:41] asciilifeform: it's <400 ln. how 'a lot' ? [15:43] shrysr: asciilifeform: i hope you know that I am not a classically trained software engg / programmer… nor do I have a strong concept about bitcoin itself. whatever little I know has been 'hacked' together. i.e I usually have not 'explored' source code on a daily basis in the past. so 400 lines or 100 lines…at this stage.. in general – I would first feel intimidated. [15:53] asciilifeform: bitcoin isn't in any way directly involved in 'v.py' [15:55] asciilifeform: shrysr: my point was — if there is a specific routine you did not understand, i may be able to help [15:56] shrysr: asciilifeform: understood. … i will work on it. and lol.. i will need your help. [15:57] shrysr: diana_coman: http://s.ragavan.co [19:26] shrysr: the formatting is a bit screwed up…. but hopefully… i will setup soon such that I can publish on WP via emacs, and that should streamline things. [19:29] asciilifeform: pretty neat, shrysr [19:29] asciilifeform: shrysr: post your notes as you eat 'v' etc [19:29] shrysr: hey asciilifeform .. oh yes.. thats the plan…. [19:30] shrysr: oh lol table of contents links are not linked at all…hehe. but damn… i finally have my website up ! [19:35] asciilifeform: congrats shrysr [19:35] shrysr: asciilifeform: thanks! heheee it wd have taken a few more years if not for you guys. [19:46] asciilifeform: shrysr: peek into #trilema , i think mp wants to ask you a q [19:48] #ossasepia Logs for 21 Jul 2019
shrysr: asciilifeform: thanks.. that was interesting. his website theme was weird… but I liked his start up notes on gpg [03:01] shrysr: somehow, I've not been able to comfortably remember the gpg commands, but in emacs, i can easily use the key I want to encrypt and decrypt files. Much faster overall. [03:02] shrysr: finds the whole btcbase log concept very interesting. [03:04] diana_coman: shrysr: http://younghands.club/wp-login.php lol [05:09] diana_coman: the conversations in chan here are logged and the log will be made public, yes; similarly to the other chans' logs [05:10] diana_coman: go ahead with those definitions then, let's see how well they actually work in practice [05:11] diana_coman: re gpg – you can wire it up any way you want ofc but do note that if you lose (as in: someone else gains access to) your private key, you are effectively dead. [05:12] diana_coman: shrysr: to put the "want-you-don't-want" in context perhaps, here: http://trilema.com/2014/that-aint-the-maslow-pyramid-yo/ [05:16] shrysr: ahhh… i recalled vaguely about the /wp-login. All the random options I tried yesterday were wrong lol. [11:33] shrysr: diana_coman: oh wow…. that still feels frightening, to have a public log of this channel. For eg, if my boss comes across me saying I'm trying to break into data science… and my comments about the computer literacy and town and etc. It's not like these are strictly objective views or even 'researched'. [11:38] diana_coman: shrysr: but so what exactly? [11:42] diana_coman: for one thing, the internet IS a public place, you know? [11:42] diana_coman: there is no "private" on the internet, esp not at this sort "we hide here and nobody will hear what we say" [11:42] diana_coman: anyway, out of curiosity, what do you get paid there? (and why is data science such a bugaboo for your boss anyway?) [11:43] shrysr: I was thinking this is also atleast one source of the concern behind unfiltered publishibng on my blog too. i.e publishing something short sighted, or plain wrong… etc etc. [11:43] diana_coman: but so what, you are not allowed to be wrong now? [11:43] diana_coman: ofc they *are* your own personal views, not some magical/universal truths [11:44] shrysr: I am…what about keeping my mouth shut untill I actually know something beyond resonable doubt ? [11:44] diana_coman: or what, are you considered some saint around there? [11:44] diana_coman: well, you'll keep your mouth shut forever like that [11:44] shrysr: No saint at all ! [11:45] diana_coman: think of it this way: would you suggest children should not talk at all until they actually know something beyond reasonable doubt? [11:45] diana_coman: btw if your pay etc is "secret" fine this instance – do me a favour and send it encrypted to my key so it stays private [11:46] diana_coman: otherwise: sure, qualify your opinions and make clear your assumptions and line of thought etc; but don't shrink from *saying* what you think – after all, how else will you get to find out how much you are right and how much wrong [11:48] shrysr: no.. imposing a no talking constraint on children doesnt make sense. How about listen more, talk less ? I guess it depends on what you get listen then. [11:50] diana_coman: that certainly. [11:50] diana_coman: do realise that the issue here is not the "oh, but it's public" – that part should not really matter, not like it's fine to be dumb as long as nobody sees it. [11:52] diana_coman: (and yes, occasionally and no matter how much you guard against it, you *will* still do a dumb thing anyway – so learn to live with it) [11:54] diana_coman: nobody's exempt from doing the dumb thing at times [11:54] diana_coman: shrysr: did you log in to the blog? [11:55] diana_coman: what's your plan ? [11:55] shrysr: rofl – my salary figure is unlikely to be worth encrypting, but I'd like to do it for practice… I wil send it across. As such, it's not like all of me wants to hide. I think I'm conflicted between hiding selectively, and its connected both to the desire of not talking non sense, and to the desire of being viewed 'knowledgable'. At the same time, I'm aware of that a different level of refinement is [12:02] shrysr: possible by talking to people… not even necessarily smart. That being said, i've still felt alienated from most of the ppl i talk to, and that has pushed me to further towards isolation. [12:02] diana_coman: hiding (and esp selective hiding) is a burden that is neither healthy nor something you actually afford to carry really; as for desire of being viewed one way or another – what others "view" is entirely on them, not on you and it's not something you'll ever be able to control anyway (it's not worth it either, fwiw) [12:07] shrysr: my plan is to start blogging with an 'updated' spirit or perspective along the lines of your advice. Preferably a daily log of what I've done / learnt. Free form and minimal editing. I had planned to start on the younghands blog, but also work on setting up my vps as well, based off wordpress and eventually migrate when things are satisfactory. [12:10] shrysr: I am yet to login. BRB [12:11] diana_coman: shrysr: that still sounds rather foggy; how about this: since you know some python, get v.py (asciilifeform's implementation of V) and review it as your first task; this means: go through it line by line as many times as you need until you can fully explain what is going on in there exactly and why [12:12] diana_coman: blog your progress following this pattern: first make a plan e.g. you'll think it will take you that much and you plan to start with this bit/that approach; report then daily what you did and how it went and/or if you need to adjust your plan [12:13] diana_coman: any questions there? [12:13] shrysr: That sounds good to me, and I am quite curious about V as well. No questions right now. [12:16] diana_coman: cool; speak up here if anything. [12:18] shrysr: yes boss :) [12:19] diana_coman: heh [12:19] shrysr: 50k a year onlyyyy before tax. [12:44] shrysr: diana_coman: thats what I make. [12:45] shrysr: diana_coman: I agree the burden is not healthy. I have not been sucessful in weeding it out of me. Maybe I have not thought deeply enough to finger the source(s) of this behavior. [12:48] shrysr: diana_coman: I just logged in to young hands. I was thinking – I should make a daily blog, but separate posts on different topics, so I can tag them appropriately. [12:49] shrysr: diana_coman: I don't want to hide… but i also worry that giving people information about me, gives them power over me, and that irrespective of whether a person would or not take advantage > eventually at some point, an opportunity arises for ppl to take advantage, and they often do. [12:51] diana_coman: shrysr: the power over you is a different issue, not addressed by hiding / not based on information really; work on being less under the power of others if you want, but that's nothing to do with hiding. [13:02] diana_coman: shrysr: use the proper terminology so you don't confuse yourself: the blog is the whole thing; each thing you publish is a post (or article) [13:03] diana_coman: you have your own category so there is that but if you want to use then different tags, go ahead, sure [13:03] diana_coman: as for "people formulate opinions" – sure they do, so what? what's that to do with you now? what, if I "formulate opinion" that Shreeyas is a cabbage, do you start sprouting leaves now? [13:04] shrysr: diana_coman: I don't want to care abt the opinions.. but these have a way of creeping up in conversations in some kind of insulting / incorrect insinuation, undermining say the good parts. Lets say You are not the type to formulate opinions and allow them to influence decisions about me with no real basis…. but the 'human' part of you means that you could be thinking differently an hour from now ? [13:06] diana_coman: shrysr: the question is how does exactly *my* change do anything to *you*? [13:07] diana_coman: if you care about an opinion, the reason usually is because it touches some nerve somewhere – so look inside you and see where and why, first of all; but the only things under your control are always inside you, not outside [13:09] diana_coman: it is also true that some "people" will sprout "opinions" all the time and on anything and with about as much meaning as the wind but then you know, stop talking to such "people", it's unhealthy [13:11] shrysr: hmm.. is caring about others opinion the same as wanting to cultivate a specific 'reputation' ? [13:19] shrysr: diana_coman: re: terminology – noted. I meant to say : rather than a single daily post with different topics as sub headings, I'm planning to start with tagged, separate posts. Then both the tags and the post date could be used to filter + review progress and focus on specific areas. [13:34] diana_coman: shrysr: you can do that, yes; just make sure you don't end up with such a complicated "system" that you don't have any time left for the actual writing and work otherwise [13:35] diana_coman: shrysr: hmm.. is caring about others opinion the same as wanting to cultivate a specific 'reputation' ? – well, add it to your to-do-list: write a post contrasting those two and try to identify how do they differ exactly? [13:37] shrysr: :D ok [13:38] shrysr: diana_coman: is it me – or does it take several seconds for the page loads while logged in to WP [14:07] shrysr: diana_coman: re: complex system: yes.. that sounds like what I do with Emacs. BUt it works ! It saves a lot of time after initial setup pains. [14:08] shrysr: btw: where are you from … both of you? [14:10] diana_coman: shrysr: which both? lol [14:54] diana_coman: I'm Romanian, currently in the UK; the site/pizarro is hosted in Uruguay [14:55] diana_coman: shrysr: re complex system, note that I said simply to make sure that the work gets done, that's all; if it works, good. [14:58] shrysr: diana_coman: I meant yourself and asciilifeform [16:02] shrysr: diana_coman: how did you create a link to the encrypted message when you shared my login details? [16:53] shrysr: diana_coman: https://pastebin.com/QnwGKDjT [17:10] shrysr: got your key from deedbot and thats my first message !yay [17:11] shrysr: i also got some gpg concepts cleared in #gnupg… it was excellent. [17:12] shrysr: I think since coming on to IRC and this channel, I feel like I've learnt more in a week than a long time. hehe [17:13] shrysr: diana_coman: you know I have to zoom to 140\% to be able to comfortably read your blog , as well as trilema [20:13] shrysr: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-18#1923372 : just wanted to say, i am 31 [21:18] shrysr: asciilifeform: / diana_coman: what is the best way to get familiar with the logs? search for terms as they come up? [21:43] #ossasepia Logs for 20 Jul 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: eh, up in the sticks, nobody other than locals thinks canada is a developed country, lol [03:58] diana_coman: but funnily enough, with food like anything else, you *can* get fast+little effort + tasty except you need to start with 1. tasty ingredients 2. knowing how to cook [03:59] diana_coman: anyways…how did you end up in that precise hole of Canada, shrysr ? [04:00] diana_coman: on the bright side, as long as you use at least basic ingredients (rather than mass produced ready-shit), you can say you are at least eating food if a rather poor one (seriously, it sounds very much like some medieval winter-time dirt-poor peasant staple, lol) [04:05] shrysr: loll I have heard the same reaction from my mom … peasant food. I felt oddly proud about it but it's not terribly pleasant for sure. [14:02] shrysr: okay.. the story you shall have: after my masters at Leeds Uni, UK. In mechanical engg, focused on computational fluid dynamics. Went back home to India and worked for ~3.5 years doing CFD, on the hydraulic design of centrifugal pumps. I made some storng contributions…but the cool projects would always bee done by the PhD's at HQ in Germany. I wanted in, and more.. .shifted to 2nd job in Application Engg [14:06] shrysr: (technical sales) for combustion equipment.. for 2 years. Here, again, the cool cats were at HQ in Tulsa, USA. I cdnt learn like i wanted to.. found the option to migrate to canada / australia [14:06] shrysr: Landed in Toronto… I was jobless for nearly a year. It was quite terrible. I hardly got interviews at all. CFD was too niche. Discovered 'data science', and found many parallels. Finally I got through to my current job. It's gonna be a year since I joined. [14:08] shrysr: I wrote to them every week for 4 months to get an interview. [14:08] shrysr: I recall dismissing machine learning when I finished my masters as something too utopian to be of value. My graduation degree was in automotive design engg by the way… [14:11] shrysr: If I could change anything, I would have opted for computer science. [14:12] shrysr: I can send you my resume if you like. [14:13] diana_coman: shrysr: you know, it might be precisely those parts that you are not so happy about that give you an edge though; and think of it: plenty who did computer science; doesn't get them anywhere further than diddling websites on top of a precarious tower of babel that crumbles each and every way any time you try to do something [14:23] diana_coman: in what sense did migrating seem "the option" though? [14:25] diana_coman: I mean: from everything else and at every juncture you say you were frustrated because you weren't working with the cool cats, which I can get totally; but migrating means precisely starting from the lowest of the low possible, about as far away as it can be from the "cool cats" [14:26] diana_coman: shrysr: and you know, do you have all this journaled on your blog so you (a later you, another "you") can look back at it in detail, maybe learn some more from it, maybe recognise something in it, who knows? [14:31] shrysr: hmm… there were many considerations behind migrating. One of which was better accessibility to great uni's, and perhaps studying further part time. Another consideration was I felt I was more aligned to what I perceived as western work ethics or style. THe idea was to get closer to HQ's or the heart of a company or closer to people who made decisions. [14:35] diana_coman: heh, distance is such a tricky thing to evaluate :D [14:37] shrysr: I don't have this published….. wc -l of my journal files only for 2019 comes to….. 142813 [14:38] diana_coman: and what, it breaks the net or what? [14:38] shrysr: :)) it seems too personal to publish ! [14:39] diana_coman: heh, I know it seems; but it's just that, it *seems*; there is no real downside in fact; anyway, you'll get to see what I mean, probably in not such a long time [14:40] diana_coman: shrysr: head over to http://younghands.club and tell me if you see the blog (so not just "it works") as the dns changes should have propagated by now [14:41] shrysr: diana_coman: I do see it… and I'm gonna do so henceforth. I'm working on setting up WP / LEMP on the VPS and porting things. I will publish a daily journal… [14:43] shrysr: diana_coman: just tried the url… forbidden + additional 403 [14:44] diana_coman: meanwhile I'll set you up an author user there and you can either write there [14:44] diana_coman: shrysr: which url? [14:44] shrysr: http://younghands.club [14:44] diana_coman: hm, I'll look at it [14:45] diana_coman: shrysr: try now [14:49] shrysr: working! [14:50] diana_coman: good. [14:50] shrysr: i like it… and I am looking forward to this. [14:51] diana_coman: glad to hear it :) as you can tell, I'm just starting it and mainly because it seems needed; but among all the other stuff going around, I have lots planned for it to grow too [14:52] diana_coman: and anyway, you're in the best position there to be in at the very start, you know? [14:52] shrysr: yes. Coming here and connecting with you seems to have given me purpose and reduced the sense of loneliness. The #emacs channel is also filled will great guys. [14:54] diana_coman: shrysr: do you have a stable IP you connect from? I'm looking at the best options to give you login access on your user there but I'm not very happy about just leaving it accessible from anywhere [14:55] shrysr: I say loneliness, but its an acute sense of a lot of shit. BTW i got slide 30 right btw :D I'm not quite done reading it all, but I was pleasntly surprised to get it right, and felt like I could connect with the topic. [14:56] shrysr: diana_coman: how do you mean stable IP ? [14:56] diana_coman: heh, well done! I'd have been worried if you didn't, to be honest; for one thing I made the thing to be digestible without much requirements otherwise ; and for the other thing, you had the leisure to read it at your own pace! [14:57] diana_coman: shrysr: as in one that doesn't change every other day [14:57] shrysr: How do I find out? I basically connect to the wifi at my motel… and then at work, on a different network. [14:58] shrysr: and yes… i live in a motel… its been a year. lol. [14:59] diana_coman: probably the hard way aka monitoring it for a while if you never bothered before; but by the sounds of it, it's rather more likely it's not very stable; I'll think a bit. [14:59] diana_coman: is that your way of making sure you're motivated to spend a lot of time at work? [14:59] shrysr: diana_coman: hm..originally yes. and economically, its almost on par with getting a decent place to rent, with less work. I wasn't planning to stay long tbh [15:01] diana_coman: I can imagine that; the trouble with temporary solutions is that they tend to end up permanently-temporary, lol [15:02] shrysr: if it helps: I always connect to a same network at the motel. if IP's are assigned each time a computer connects – then – my personal laptop is connected to the same network 99\% of the time. [15:04] diana_coman: well, it's a bit iffier than that and anyway, probably I'll need to figure out a solution for it anyway so might as well do it now [15:05] shrysr: have you worked with the UMAP library in R for dimension reduction of data sets ? [15:08] shrysr: https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/umap/vignettes/umap.html [15:08] diana_coman: no, not really; I used R some….10 years ago, when I was messing about with "software engineering" "data" in academia [15:09] diana_coman: I did use it again when I got into eulora but the trouble with eulora so far is that there is too little data :)) [15:10] shrysr: hmm UMAP is essentially an algorithm that performs dimension reduction [15:10] shrysr: and it appears the results are different on each computer !! [15:10] diana_coman: well yes, but it has some assumptions [15:11] diana_coman: ahahahaha [15:11] diana_coman: welcome to "tools that will help you!!!!"(pull your hair out) [15:11] diana_coman: or well, "usefulness" of what passes nowadays for a computer [15:11] shrysr: I've been looking at for a bit now… to help resolve a query posted in the forum.. lol a dive was long overdue.. but it is quite interesting [15:11] shrysr: bit as in since last night. [15:12] diana_coman: I hope you have planned to do a write-up of it, yes? :D [15:12] shrysr: absolutely. I also have a summary of what I covered on PGP [15:12] diana_coman: cool [15:12] shrysr: i got stuck mapping a sub domain name to the vps… and switching on cloudflare, and then this problem popped up. I want to directly post on the newwww blog lol [15:14] shrysr: not to mention, the guy who posted was told off by a new experienced member of the community that he was posting and tagging the course instructor too frequently…. [15:14] shrysr: with my new found 'courage' being fired by exposure to ossasepia and the general rowdy spirit in IRC … i had to compose a lengthy message … to say i disagreed. [15:16] shrysr: I like it… it's actually like learning to talk again for me. [15:16] shrysr: in a different way atleast… [15:16] diana_coman: well, that's the thing with the vps and cloudflare and all the similar shit – you are actually tollerated while they can fleece something off of you (time at the very least) [15:21] diana_coman: but as soon as you actually try to do something you'll find soon enough that nope, you aren't wanted there anymore [15:21] shrysr: I thought ppl get married to make sure there's atleast somebody who would want something that you're willing to give :P . I like attention and admiration, but I hate wanting it, and cant help wanting it.. [15:24] shrysr: well, i also don't want it many times, to be fair. I'm a quiet guy. [15:25] diana_coman: why do you hate wanting it? [15:26] shrysr: it feels like a dependency…. that I cannot control. [15:26] diana_coman: how is it a dependency though? a want is not a dependency [15:26] diana_coman: that you want it is a signal, nothing more; a signal to *you*; saying you can't control it is a bit like saying you can't control being hungry [15:28] diana_coman: do you hate that too now? [15:28] diana_coman: you are of course totally welcome to not like the fact that you don't receive as much as you'd want :D [15:29] diana_coman: but that's a different …signal [15:29] shrysr: a dependency for feeling satisfied ? like i crave french fries and have the power to purchase it or feed my hunger. But I cant induce admiration and it doesnt seem a worthy target to induce. Why shd I want admiration? Why not live for the results alone? [15:29] diana_coman: that's bullshit; why should you want food too and sex too and why not live for nothing alone? [15:31] diana_coman: in crude words: don't cut off your own dick just because it's inconvenient to have one, at times [15:32] diana_coman: if it's any help I can directly tell you that it's *also* inconvenient to not have one, there. [15:32] diana_coman: is looking if shrysr is still breathing or totally shocked. [15:36] shrysr: lmao [15:36] diana_coman: btw the above does *not* mean that it's fine to be a slave to this (or any other) need; just don't negate it because it is part of you; work with it and figure out its deeper roots. [15:38] shrysr: so you are saying wanting admiration is an essential part of being human, or *yourself* and there is no sense in bothering to hate it ? [15:38] shrysr: hmm [15:38] shrysr: ok [15:38] shrysr: that answers my question. [15:38] diana_coman: what you want most probably is *recognition* [15:39] diana_coman: sure, you enjoy more one form of it or another but so what [15:41] diana_coman: none of them are "wrong" [15:41] shrysr: i don;'t say it is wrong… but cutting off the need to receive recognition certainly feels more feasible than cutting off my dick, in general, and thus possibly reduce conflict or pain overall in the journey ? [15:45] diana_coman: this is a bit like the frog saying "jumping in this slightly warmer water certainly feels more feasible than jumping into the scalding water directly and thus possibly reduce conflict or pain overall in the journey" ; and the frog is right! it reduces conflict and pain overall in the journey to boiled frog! [15:47] shrysr: :D [15:47] diana_coman: basically you are not cutting off your dick, just shaving/trimming bits off, lol [15:49] shrysr: loll [15:50] diana_coman: has yet to see a man who does *not* thoroughly enjoy admiration and adoration for that matter [15:50] shrysr: well women are no different are they ? [15:51] shrysr: how do you post that message thingy ? what is it called [15:51] diana_coman: shrysr: you might be surprised but they are [15:51] diana_coman: and note that here as above, this is statistically speaking and you should know what that means [15:52] diana_coman: in particular, it's not something you get to apply to ONE woman you see just because she's a woman (or to ONE man just because he's a man) [15:52] shrysr: statistically significant??? How would you really measure that? Simple yes or no to : do you like admiration and adoration ? [16:00] diana_coman: shrysr: what message thingy? [16:00] diana_coman: lol; first of all are you sure you can define the 2 as clearly disjunct? :D [16:01] shrysr: where you wrote about looking to see if i was breathing [16:01] diana_coman: ah you go /me blbla [16:01] shrysr: hehe nice [16:02] shrysr: is a little confused as to 'which 2' is being meant? (admiration and adoration) ? (man and woman)? [16:06] diana_coman: admiration and adoration [16:08] diana_coman: shrysr: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/IYEfa/?raw=true [16:51] diana_coman: in the end I've opened it up to all IPs, since it's quite public after all so it'll have to put up with whatever the public throws at it [16:52] diana_coman: let me know if you have any trouble logging in or publishing stuff [16:53] diana_coman: and otherwise…publish [16:53] shrysr: yay i decrypted it [17:42] shrysr: that was terribly exciting. [17:43] shrysr: but where do i login [17:45] shrysr: diana_coman: ^ [17:45] shrysr: diana_coman: are these chat logs public ? probably a little late to be asking [17:46] shrysr: i was also wondering – cant i decrypt that file, passing the url to gpg at the command line ? i copied it to a local text file. [17:48] shrysr: this link seemd to be down? http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ [19:09] asciilifeform: shrysr: that one is by a fella who disappears years ago. current lives in http://wot.deedbot.org/ . [19:11] shrysr: asciilifeform: thanks. THIs i stumbled on in my feverish clicking of links… I was looking at something akin to documentation, concepts and so on. [19:17] shrysr: i found a blog post on trilema for this. [19:17] shrysr: diana_coman: yes, i can define the two as disjunct, though I am not a PhD : [19:20] shrysr: http://edgecasesoftware.com/ : was this an old student of yours ? [20:44] asciilifeform: shrysr: see also http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=edgecase . [22:18] asciilifeform: initially eager fella, got drummed out as evident unteachable [22:18] #ossasepia Logs for 31 Aug 2019
diana_coman: !o uptime [04:47] ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 15h 20m [04:47] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000639 << what exactly do you mean by public toilet? I searched the trilema logs and found some references – but I don't think I really understand. Any computer connected to the internet, or say is hosting a website accessible over the internet is a public toilet? i.e any non air-gapped machine? [10:17] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 09:48:32 diana_coman: shrysr_: do me a favour and get rid of the https thing as it makes your blog inaccessible from anything other than my public-toilet computer so you're missing out on me commenting there. [10:17] diana_coman: shrysr: it has more to do with what runs on that machine really and how open to the network it is; it might mean different precise things for different people. [10:50] shrysr: diana_coman: okay, so what does it mean to you? do you have strict classification of activities you do on your public toilet computer, versus another…. well.. 'somewhat' air gapped computer, to the extent of the degree that you can live with? [11:03] shrysr: i guess the question is also about how to start thinking / upgrade the way i deal with my data. I'm not totally ignorant abt security in the sense that i have never stored anything of importance on dropbox … on the other hand I did store almost everything on evernote for a period. I guess that cancels it out, but it was terribly convenient to whip up a tax return or receipt or whatever in a snap… and [11:18] shrysr: was literally how I could manage my migration here in a smooth manner. I gather it is a matter of degree.. but are there absolute 'wrong' things I should avoid at all costs? [11:18] shrysr: for example – does it mean, I should never use my linode VPS as a mail server of sorts, or have any private keys on it? Should I have a public toilet edition of gpg keys as well ? [11:25] BingoBoingo: shrysr: I recommend not running your own mail server. Keeping up with mail serving standards can eat ALL of your time and the big inbox cartels can still default distrust your mailings. [12:19] BingoBoingo: And no private keys on linode at all. People have lost Bitcoin for doing that http://trilema.com/2012/the-bitcoin-drama-timeline/ [12:20] BingoBoingo: Or "no private keys of value" on linode [12:20] diana_coman: shrysr: as BingoBoingo points out, the one most important thing is for sure NEVER store your private keys there (and esp. not on a vps/online/someone else's machine/…) [13:25] diana_coman: I have a "travel key " (i.e. the one for diana_alt as you might have noticed), yes; even that one was never stored on vps and the like. [13:28] diana_coman: the part to grasp is that your private key IS "you", your identity whole here [13:28] diana_coman: anything signed/done under that key is *done by you* by definition, there is no way to claim "it wasn't me" after the fact [13:30] diana_coman: and moreover, losing that key (i.e. being unable to decrypt something encrypted to it) literally means you "die" around here because there's no way to tell it's "you" [13:31] diana_coman: you can of course make another key but you start over with it, as if you just came in. [13:31] diana_coman: onth re gov data and paperwork and the like – they are pretty much nothing to do with actual security anyway (despite the whole loud pretense otherwise "we take care of your data" bla bla) [13:33] diana_coman: sure, you can observe some degrees there too but you won't be able to secure it meaningfully anyway, because of its actual use (i.e. yes, you are pretty much required to handle it over insecure media and in insecure ways) [13:35] diana_coman: so yes, all my interfacing with usual gov/local admin/child's school etc that is done online is done through the public toilet pc for instance [13:36] diana_coman: for that matter I consider though that data pretty much public anyway i.e. I'm under no illusion that it is not public, whatever is claimed otherwise. [13:39] diana_coman: shrysr: as a general principle, the core of non-public would be this: the default rule is "no" to everything and the exceptions (i.e. what CAN be done/access/make it there) are each and every one specifically added when/if needed. [13:43] diana_coman: you might see the link there with the earlier advice re new software and tools: by default it's NO to everyone; the onus is on them to prove they do something useful and can be trusted before being even considered. [13:44] diana_coman: that's after all the definition of "private": not open to everyone, default closed; by contrast, public (at its total extreme) is default open to everyone with specific exceptions that are not allowed [13:45] diana_coman: so: on public toilet there's default allowed and a list of not allowed stuff; on private computer there's default forbidden and a (small) list of allowed stuff. [13:47] diana_coman: !o uptime [17:14] ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 3h 48m [17:14] asciilifeform: diana_coman: neato. loox like your pipe is quite stable enuff for bot. [17:21] diana_coman: so far so good, yes [17:34] April 19, 2020
#ossasepia Logs for 30 Aug 2019
shrysr: lobbes: yes infact it is an ERP system, but not from SAP. the company was using another inventory mgmt software called inflow (with abs no understanding of how it works), and other than sales and purchase orders – everything else is currently done with Hand written / verbal communication. so – an inventory mgmt software was/is being used not to manage inventory and feed other modules – but only for [06:11] shrysr: sales/po's… :O !! [06:12] shrysr: essentially – i'm establishing a system from scratch replacing manual and mostly retarded workflows… completely alone. I'm migrating what i can from the existing 'database' – cleaning the data using R and feeding it into the software ERPNext, while standardising the entire inventory, creating fucking Bill of Materials (BOM's) , product groups etc etc with customised documents for manufacturing build [06:16] shrysr: sheets. [06:16] shrysr: i still cannot believe a manufacturing company does not go by a BOM as the first step. The level of stupidity is such that – in the existing system – the same item from 2 different vendors has been entered as : " 2" Stainless Steel pipe" and "Two in ss pipe" !!!??!? That's a very sane example. I've had to use regex to spot the numerous extremely creative ways ppl have managed to explicitly express their [06:23] shrysr: stupidity, not to mention poor spelling skills. It is still astounding. [06:23] shrysr: Solenoid Solonoid solnoyd selnoid soulnod… fuck me!! i started all this in january. spent 100's of hours trying to figure out ways around the existing software to avoid a 'complex' ERP solution… tried connecting with the 'founder' of inflow to implement customisation — failed. [07:08] shrysr: started working on individual 'web apps' with misgivings that the hole was getting deeper rather than filled.. then finally found ERPNext ~4 months ago. Very close now to establishing baseline. [07:09] shrysr: lobbes: excel jockey doing what ? [07:11] diana_coman: shrysr: I hope you see though how and why they'll…. hate you by the end of it :D [08:56] shrysr: diana_coman: yes, if they don't already do. TBH i've perceived resentment and borderline hate from most since as long as I can rem. However, i think the core is not completely rotten, since I've also received kindness at unexpected and critical moments…. and i've seen change if the solution is powerful enough (i.e easy enough to use without terribly affecting their sense of ego and eventually 'proven' of [11:02] shrysr: saving some major headaches). [11:02] shrysr: lol i.e sold to them, despite clear merit in the idea. not ideal… and lot more work – but i get to put something on my resume and do some good and helps me move on … [11:05] diana_coman: shrysr: it's not about some rotten core at all; it's simply that 1. change = work , hence people in general do not want it and *will not do it* unless and until they ran out of ~ANY other options 2. you are there forcing change (even proposing it!) and without any authority to squash "any other choice" convincingly therefore 3. you are the best target /relief [11:09] shrysr: :D [11:11] diana_coman: basically if you make it still with them to the other side when they are over the work and comfortable with the new situation, some might even say thanks; maybe. [11:11] shrysr: i'm still laughing. yes. i guess time will tell. but it IS for their good lol.. and mine as i've admitted. [11:17] diana_coman: sure it is; laughter is also very good; as the saying goes: if you can't laugh at silly, stupid, bad and downright nasty, there will be precious little to laugh at :)) [11:19] diana_coman: (and do remember the above for when /if you find yourself hating someone who's trying to… change stuff :D ) [11:20] shrysr: fwiw diana_coman – i took this test 3-4 times and got the same result (varying between A/T): https://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality , i think the analysis is frighteningly close to the truth .. [11:22] diana_coman: the personality tests, heh. [11:22] shrysr: i've actually experienced that…atleast once in a very significant way in first salt-mine. curiously enough – i found that i did not hate the change if i could see sense/value in it. but i will admit it was unsettling nevertheless and very easy to hate though it seemed i did not have to force myself to analyse if it made sense at the same time. [11:28] diana_coman: shrysr: the "gentler" approach is to have+take the time+effort to make first people sense the value in it; but that part can be extremely expensive and at times simply not feasible for "everyone" [11:31] diana_coman: fwiw there's a whole lot of writing on the topic, specifically re introducing new stuff in industrial environments but I wouldn't say it's worth sinking the time to read any of it really [11:32] diana_coman: shrysr: the nugget to get out of all of it (and faster at that) is short: to the extent possible/available, when you talk to people simply focus on what's in it *for them* directly, not on the shiny change or how it's better overall or whatever other far away and abstract bits [11:38] diana_coman: directly aka personally in this instance [11:38] shrysr: okay. i will try to hang on to the nugget. i cannot say that i do 'what's in it for em' typically / without specific effort. <sigh> [11:49] diana_coman: it certainly is an effort, yes; onth you stand thus a chance of a more friendly response; ofc you get to decide if it's worth it or not and in what cases; sometimes having them hate your guts is …tonic ! [11:52] diana_coman: or it doesn't matter entirely; pretty much as it doesn't matter if your postman hates that you got a postbox now instead of a hole in the door or whatever [11:53] diana_coman: basically it's not your *obligation*, it's simply your option and choice. [11:55] diana_coman: !o up [14:26] ossabot: diana_coman: my valid commands are: seen, s, src, help, uptime [14:26] diana_coman: !o uptime [14:26] ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 1h 0m [14:26] diana_coman: !o uptime [17:51] ossabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 4h 24m [17:51] #ossasepia Logs for 29 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: like all matters of security, it's a degrees one i.e. what specific compromise between convenience and safety you want to live with [03:37] diana_coman: one one extreme, you'd generate and keep the private key on an air-gapped computer (i.e. never connected to the network, no wireless card on it and never connecting to it any device that was on the network [03:38] diana_coman: that includes usb sticks or external drives) [03:39] diana_coman: and anyway, air-gapping is not by itself a "solution" or something [03:40] diana_coman: shrysr: ref re air-gapping and some starter on the "how to secure" : http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ [03:41] shrysr: ohooo i remember the diskette ! floppy disk ! and remember the tab ..literally figured out by trial and error about the read only state. [12:31] diana_coman: shrysr: lol; did you still catch casettes too? [13:25] shrysr: diana_coman: yes :D. I can't remember using them much though. in particular i remember desperately desiring a 'zipdrive'… i think they allowed 250 mb of storage. it was terribly expensive. I would walk round and round the very few 'internet cafe's' (window shopping) the same zipdrive on display. [14:12] asciilifeform: shrysr: when i was young i saved to buy one. ended up with the 100MB parallel port thing. it was fast compared to the floppy but disks ruinously expensive, so felt like ripoff [14:17] asciilifeform: dun think i ever had more than 3-4 [14:18] asciilifeform: shrysr: there were other oddball drives in those days. at one point i found a panasonic 'pd disk' thing in a dump. was a kind of early equivalent of rewritable cd — slow, but felt like major breakthrough, 700 whole MB !111 [14:19] asciilifeform: see also this archaeological piece re subj. [14:21] shrysr: As i reflect now – i think the excellent thing was that I had access to a computer pretty young. and the bad thing was that I never broke it down and instead treated it like a precious commodity to find a way a get pirated software/games etc. It was pretty late — about 1 year into slavery that I actively took efforts to gain 'practical' exposure to my work atleast. That prompted the first change in [14:22] shrysr: mines, though it took additional 2.5 years. even there I was not 'supposed to go out into the field'… i forced that to happen and it literally made an ocean of difference even compared to guys who had been in combustion equipment in O&G for 20X the time I had. [14:22] asciilifeform: iirc 'zip' wasn't a 'phase change' disk tho, but simply same tech as ye olde floppy, but with moar precise head alignment. [14:22] asciilifeform: diana_coman: my older brother's sovok 'bk0010' wrote to cassette (he had to bring own tape deck to school). i didn't live long enuff to keep proggies on audio casette. but then in '90s found monstrous 8mm 'exabyte' in dump ! i think i still have a buncha ancient backups on 8mm… [14:25] asciilifeform: housed 2GB / ea. which for mid-90s was notbad. [14:25] asciilifeform: was a finicky/fiddly beast though, needed regular cleaning to work reliably [14:26] asciilifeform: subj. [14:27] asciilifeform: these were 'helical scan' mechanisms, sorta like miniature vhs. [14:30] asciilifeform: (i.e. unlike audio tape, used the full width of the tape, by having a cylindrical head that turns, at a 30 or so degree angle to the motion of the tape) [14:31] asciilifeform: recently i was astonished to find that one can still buy new 8mm tapes — they are used ~somewhere~ [14:32] BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: iirc 8mm's enduring niche is film making. Better thing to record to, but high quality recording tools that eat 8mm tapes survive. [14:33] asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: at one time i had a camera that ate these, aha [14:35] asciilifeform: iirc it recorded analogue vhs to'em tho [14:35] BingoBoingo: atm breaking down absolutly schizophrenic US Majistrate Judge eruptionx01 [14:36] asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hey, schizo case deserves schizo judge, almost [14:38] shrysr: ha! schizo case and schizo judge … would be fascinating. [15:00] shrysr: asciilifeform: iirc what i saved, by walking to school instead of using transport i guess was barely 1/10 of the zipdrive.. .. lol. used to sleep with the money under my pillow after daily count and family still make fun of me for that ~20 years later. [15:04] diana_coman: heh, nostalgia trip; I remember even more vividly the sense of wonder at various stages/changes; and the sound of those casette-games loading, lolz. [15:22] lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000789 << my family didn't get a proper computer until I was probably 13 or so (I was stuck using an electronic 'word processor' for most school assignments). Once we did my mom went crazy learning about it and getting the newest 'tech'; the 'zipdrive' was one of these things [17:10] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 14:12:47 shrysr: diana_coman: yes :D. I can't remember using them much though. in particular i remember desperately desiring a 'zipdrive'… i think they allowed 250 mb of storage. it was terribly expensive. I would walk round and round the very few 'internet cafe's' (window shopping) the same zipdrive on display. [17:10] lobbes: funnily enough, these things were of ~0 use to me because none of the computers at my school would eat 'em! Was stuck with floppy disks until the 'thumbdrive' became a thing [17:10] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000811 << oh yeaa! like tapes disappearing into the VCR. The ONLY gaming console I ever owned… Sega. probably 16bit. another reason I looking fwd to eulora.. have always loved games, but never got around to getting a good console. Just a bit on my laptop… probably just as well or I would not bother doing anything else. [19:06] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 15:22:55 diana_coman: heh, nostalgia trip; I remember even more vividly the sense of wonder at various stages/changes; and the sound of those casette-games loading, lolz. [19:06] asciilifeform: the 8mm deck made amazing variety of sounds [19:07] asciilifeform: had 4 or 5 motors to move the various doors of the tape, the heads, to spin the heads, etc [19:07] diana_coman: shrysr: heh, eulora can be quite addictive but on the bright side, it is made to NOT require constant supervision; i.e. more thinking than clicking. [19:10] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000814 << other than the lab work, i think there was almost no need to use computers when i was in school.. a very small group of us were enthusiastic abt even that. it was impossible to not use computers in uni though. I guess it is completely different now right from nursery or whatever. [19:12] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 17:10:13 lobbes: funnily enough, these things were of ~0 use to me because none of the computers at my school would eat 'em! Was stuck with floppy disks until the 'thumbdrive' became a thing [19:12] diana_coman: shrysr: different yes but not better; it's usually touch-screens that they throw at kids from nursery, yes; + "learning to program by click-and-cluck" [19:13] shrysr: lol click-and-cluck [19:46] shrysr: omfg i hope this is the last erp project i work on…. it is interesting but each thing i get done seems to generate more and more and more tasks… i hope the slave masters are satisfied enough to leave me alone for atleast a bit after the formal demo next week. [19:50] lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000822 << I'm not sure what is worse, the "pretense to programming" use for touch-screens or the "watch youtube channels that literally exist to sell to 3-year olds" use for touch-screens. You'd think the latter, but I'm not sure [23:27] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 19:13:57 diana_coman: shrysr: different yes but not better; it's usually touch-screens that they throw at kids from nursery, yes; + "learning to program by click-and-cluck" [23:27] lobbes: shrysr: I have to ask: this isn't SAP ERP by any chance is it? I spent 4 years migrating data into the backend of that thing in various slave galleys [23:29] lobbes: very glad to be free of that work. It was mentally stimulating, but my job now as an "excel jockey" consumes a good \% less of my time [23:32] #ossasepia Logs for 28 Aug 2019
shrysr: diana_coman: http://younghands.club/2019/08/26/week-6-review/#comment-17 I have a single updates section right at the beginning with dates referring to the updates in sections below. I'm not terribly happy with it, but it seemed more efficient to begin with, and still does… after which more and more topics started pouring in as I studied… the idea was to make a 'living document' …. [11:44] diana_coman: shrysr: living document is fine but note that 1. that "Updates" section doesn't even *link* to where in the text the update is 2. you seem focused on writer efficiency even at the expense of reader efficiency; do you expect the reader to *memorize* or come back to that section each time or what? [11:54] shrysr: some better solutions I see for you to easily find what has been done has been https://tiddlywiki.com/ — each subheading can be made separate and linked to a global topic and can be self hosted. blog posts on WP could be used for actual articles rather than transient notes. The issue there is that there is no commenting system. However – you can link to specific notes and comment here. [11:55] diana_coman: as smallest change, just add the date/time at the top of each new bit, as you put it in. [11:55] diana_coman: shrysr: don't start adding/branching/searching for something else again. [11:56] diana_coman: if you prefer, just make the "Updates" links too, similar to the table of contents [11:57] diana_coman: if each update is a section anyway, you can even make without i.e. just add the date in the table of contents and be done with it [11:58] shrysr: if updates are both sections, and added content in existing sections ? [11:58] shrysr: I will check if the internal links translate when I export to html. [11:59] diana_coman: eh, so if that happens, you have to keep the Updates section but make each line in there a link to the new stuff; the selection thing can work well for that I suppose [11:59] diana_coman: do note you need the server-side one to make sure it's consistent across browsers though. [11:59] diana_coman: "less is more" – you need to practice minimalism some more. [12:00] shrysr: :( quickie tried the selection thing few days ago… it is not working yet. Atleast earlier it was working for others accessing the site , but not for me… now with current 'theme' – get an error. [12:01] diana_coman: well, you can use html then since you add the content anyway so add it with hooks (i.e. it's fixed anyway). [12:02] shrysr: okay. I will figure out how to make updates more reader friendly using internal links. So to summarise : I will have a primary updates section at the very top – containing chronological update summaries (latest on top) + links to updated sections (and eventually exact content). [12:21] diana_coman: sounds ok. [12:30] shrysr: HA : they do… https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/v/#orgd154a2e . Thats good. [12:30] shrysr: havent forgottena abt removing https. shd do today i think. [12:32] shrysr: https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/following-ch-article-how-to-learn-programming/#Exercises >> 1.2 – how should I go about in 'securing' my gpg keys? I know the private keys live in ~/.gnupg/ ? I've not yet found a clear method w.r.t transferring keys between computers either [20:37] #ossasepia Logs for 27 Aug 2019
diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000751 – that's the clue that your interests and theirs do not align. [04:10] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 19:03:55 shrysr_: take care of itself if other fundamentals were done right. That being said – i had to fight for all the 'raises' i got despite explicit evidence of results. [04:10] diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000748 – especially awesome targets for fleecing, yes, it's a rather common dynamic between the poor and the paper-rich (printed paper made a lot of those in the west) when neither sides really fully gets what money is and how it works. [04:14] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 18:39:37 shrysr_: are awesome targets for investments atleast. I was viewing it only from the perspective of an opportunity to setup a platform….. my dads first reaction was the same as yours and his advice was to use it as a project and not get involved until an absolutely lucid picture was available… i had to concede that it made more sense than going back. [04:14] shrysr: /join #trilema [18:39] shrysr: hmm i am unable to join.. i see the logs are up. Am i doing something wrong? [18:44] shrysr: error msg : unknown channel. [18:44] shrysr: never mind. something to do with slack connected on weechat. got connected. [18:59] asciilifeform: shrysr: you need a fleanode-registered nick to join #t, it has +r mode set [19:00] asciilifeform: and yes gotta be connected to fleanode and not some random net, lol [19:01] shrysr: yea lol [19:02] #ossasepia Logs for 26 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr_: do me a favour and get rid of the https thing as it makes your blog inaccessible from anything other than my public-toilet computer so you're missing out on me commenting there. [09:48] shrysr_: diana_coman: okay – there were plans to explore HTTPS — i havent done so and don't understand why it is useless. My impression so far is that HTTPS is a protocol that encrypts the connection between the client and the server, and hence prevents anybody from 'intercepting' this 'connection' and acquiring access somehow to my vps. [13:52] shrysr_: also wondering why my nick has an _ attached [13:54] shrysr_: as such happy to get rid of it simply beacuse you say so – i just have to figure out how. [13:59] asciilifeform: shrysr_: search logs for 'pki'. ( summary : it's an elementary scam, enemy has master keys that make a joke of the supposed 'crypto' ) [14:01] BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000640 << The code necessary to get https is likely to contain leaks that allow reading the server's memory. Examples of this have been found numerous times in the past. See "Heartbleed" et al. [14:08] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 13:52:21 shrysr_: diana_coman: okay – there were plans to explore HTTPS — i havent done so and don't understand why it is useless. My impression so far is that HTTPS is a protocol that encrypts the connection between the client and the server, and hence prevents anybody from 'intercepting' this 'connection' and acquiring access somehow to my vps. [14:08] asciilifeform: these also. [14:08] asciilifeform: 'openssl' is coupla MB of ??? liquishit 'obfuscated c' . [14:09] asciilifeform: shrysr_: see also e.g. thread [14:28] snsabot: Logged on 2019-01-03 14:10:44 asciilifeform: stratum: given that the most active criminal is the nato reich itself, what exactly is the worth of pkiistic 'sekoority' where they have master key ? [14:28] shrysr_: thanks asciilifeform and BingoBoingo. also since 'pki' throws up stuff like 'napkin' – is there a way to narrow this down in the search? [14:28] asciilifeform: and . [14:29] snsabot: Logged on 2018-09-12 10:30:41 asciilifeform: a major function of sslism is to hinder ~user~ from examining ~own~ packets. this must end. [14:29] asciilifeform: shrysr_: quoted search is in the works, but not rolled out yet. [14:30] shrysr_: Re: handbook of applied crypto — the only purchase link appears to be https://www.crcpress.com/Handbook-of-Applied-Cryptography/Menezes-van-Oorschot-Vanstone/p/book/9780849385230 also appears there is no digital version etc. go ahead with this ? [15:15] shrysr_: doesnt seem available on the o'reilly portal either :( [15:16] diana_coman: shrysr_: you can actually find the pdf of the book if you must [15:20] diana_coman: re https, as asciilifeform and BingoBoingo said above; basically it's the type of thing that gives you the *impression* of security at the actual cost of exposing you to attacks that you are not even aware of (and making it even harder to protect yourself). [15:21] diana_coman: it's not as much that it's "not working" – rather that it's not working *for* the one installing it on their site; [15:21] diana_coman: shrysr_: re book let me know if you really can't find it. [15:22] diana_coman: fwiw I have the hardback simply; bought it online iirc (possibly at bookdepository) [15:23] diana_coman: esp ref books I find most useful in hard copy anyway. [15:24] shrysr_: i would prefer a hardcopy but as such try not to accumulate since i'm not settled and have to move n etc. ideally would prefer both.. this is really why i subscribed to o'reilly… seemed they had all the technical books worth reading. apparently not. [15:24] asciilifeform: shrysr_: i'ma post a copy, gimme 5min [15:24] diana_coman: shrysr_: I know that predicament but can't say I found a solution to it other than just still accumulating the books needed and then on moving day either paying to move them too or …buying them again at new location (if still in print etc). [15:25] asciilifeform: shrysr_: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/warez/vanstone.pdf [15:25] diana_coman: thanks asciilifeform [15:25] asciilifeform: np. [15:25] asciilifeform: it's a late '90s edition iirc, but shouldn't matter . [15:25] diana_coman: shrysr_: re your _ at nick – that's probably your client's config i.e. you got disconnected at some point, your old nick was still "busy" and so it reconnected as shrysr_ (and/or maybe failed to identify with nickserv on time) [15:26] diana_coman: asciilifeform: mine is also 1997 iirc so I can confirm that's perfectly fine [15:26] asciilifeform: diana_coman: my dead tree is circa '06 iirc but none of the added material is interesting imho. [15:27] shrysr_: :D thanks so much asciilifeform. diana_coman : ok.i will get started with the pdf for now and look into hardcopy options. [15:27] diana_coman: shrysr_: I found it to be quite self-contained but do ping in here at least, if you find you still need something further anyway. [15:32] asciilifeform: shrysr_: it's really an encyclopedia . reading scan will be somewhat painful, see if you can get a paper one somewhere . [15:33] diana_coman: shrysr_: you might find it perhaps (and cheaper) as a 2nd hand copy; you don't need the latest edition anyway so… [15:35] shrysr_: yes..i will make it a point to ask henceforth in line with your comment. yea, the 2 hardcopies i have now – i was able to find 2nd hand on amazon itself… this book seemed totally absent. For deeper explorations – i've found in the hard way there is no point in bothering with a pdf type thingy. [15:38] asciilifeform: shrysr_: it's handy for search, but otherwise yes i also prefer the dead tree [15:38] shrysr_: hehe back home i had a guy who'd get me almost any book… :( shd get out of my room now and then in canada. [15:40] diana_coman: shrysr_: I just answered your comments on the blog but reading yours on data science it strikes me that you are in fact looking to acquire the basic (unknown/unclear to you, as yet) set of skills for data analysis? [15:45] shrysr_: Yes. data analysis extending to ML. I've been using the Introduction to Statistical Learning (ISL) – http://faculty.marshall.usc.edu/gareth-james/ISL/ for this. I can't say I've been consistent – but this has certainly improved over the last month or two. [15:48] diana_coman: hm, when I hear "practical", "chokefull of examples of when to use" and "without needing a background in Maths" it rather raises alarm bells but I'll have a look through it. [15:52] shrysr_: Thats the hardcopy i purchased after MANY months wasted …trying to find 'shortcuts'.. from whatever little i do understand – it is almost useless to not know what this book covers and more abt the algorithms used in ML … but it seems that the vast majority of ppl do not bother and yet get jobs etc. I wanted to do it the right way…. and have spent a year at current mine with idealistic pursuits of [15:52] shrysr_: depth and 'real knowledge' …. which were still not executed well despite good intentions. [15:52] diana_coman: this "statistical learning" also sounds like "we had to invent something so here's the name we came up with" [15:52] shrysr_: it sort of is so actually. [15:53] shrysr_: ML >> applied stats ? [15:53] diana_coman: well, machine learning is an umbrella term for anything one wants really, from neural networks to backtracking prolog [15:54] diana_coman: shrysr_: if you want to get employed by some company, you are probably better off figuring out the sort of talk they want to hear; sadly nowadays most "companies" are more about the talk than about the knowledge, hence a lot of your problems; they basically don't *want* you to know too much, it's too uncomfortable even [15:56] diana_coman: if, on the other hand, you want to learn statistics, that's very well but not necessarily correlated to getting a job, for the reason above. [15:56] diana_coman: when you actually know your stuff, you are "throwing the curve" aka making it harder for those knowing less to pass as very important and so… they won't like you, of course. [15:58] diana_coman: knowing less but not wanting to put in the effort to actually know more, that's the rub. [15:58] diana_coman: oh boy, 2 pages in and already deja-vu; /me perseveres. [16:00] shrysr_: well they wanna hear talk like 'docker' lol.. one sensible thing as a practical objective that I've seen is – build a portfolio of projects. Neednt even be fancy – but preferably aligned to what target company X does day to day. Especially for guys like me with a non computer-science background… added to which are the vacant stares when i talk about what i did. It happened last friday over a chat with an [16:06] shrysr_: 'IT' recruiter. This was my BEST effort in dumbing it ALLL down to almost meaningless explanations and yet…. the stare wouldnt leave her damn face in the video chat. that has happened even with mech engg / manufacturing companies… [16:06] diana_coman: shrysr_: so make a list with the companies you are interested in; research each and see what they want; based on that you can then target specifically. [16:07] diana_coman: just don't conflate the 2 basically; i.e. treat the learning as serious learning and the job-hunting as what it is – finding the salt-mine that still leaves you time and energy for learning while providing you with enough money to make it further. [16:09] diana_coman: for that matter: what is it that you are actually looking for? [16:10] diana_coman: in between: looking in the logs I realised I never got to see that encrypted thing you pasted on some site; was there something important in there/do you want to resend it pasted on p.bvulpes.com so I actually get to see it? [16:11] shrysr_: hmm.other than some test messages, I believe i shared my salary and the resume i'm using now so you'd know more abt me. I can resend that. [16:12] diana_coman: shrysr_: go ahead, I'll have a look. [16:13] shrysr_: diana_coman: https://s.ragavan.co/wp-content/uploads/Resume_Shreyas_Ragavan.pdf [16:29] shrysr_: that template is a 'magic' template guaranteed to make into the 'maybe' pile towards interviews as per https://www.datasciencedreamjob.com/ , which was the first ever thing I signed up for after deciding to pursue data science… i had followed the founder Kyle for a bit and thought he was good…. hes not bad – but i did not agree with his methodologies. Before this I had a rather verbose 2 page CV which [16:32] shrysr_: was not dumbed down. [16:32] shrysr_: hmm.. i had updated the links to my current WP website. looks like that version is at home. but there are no major changes. [16:37] diana_coman: shrysr_: I suspect that you see it as dumbed down (and I get what you mean) while they still feel punched in the nose with a ton of hard bricks [16:37] diana_coman: but more importantly, the trouble with "datasciencedreamjob" is that such a job is more likely to be a nightmare. [16:37] diana_coman: shrysr_: out of curiosity: ever considered actually running your own business? [16:40] diana_coman: shrysr_: re job in general, consider this – getting employed for a high salary means first of all that *they* have a higher claim to you (your time, your energy and you overall), that's all; it does *not* mean at all that you get to do interesting stuff or intelligently-stimulating environment or anything of the sort, not by or in itself; and moreover it doesn't mean something long-term either, a "career" or anything of the sort. [16:45] shrysr_: yes… i realised that. by that point i was jobless for over 6 months and wanted to understand if I was doing something terribly wrong because ppl wdnt even call me for interviews… i found the DSDJ forum and the quality of advice given out was total shit, even as a beginner…. i myself started reviewing CV's of kidsand helping others fix their broken english fucked up resumes and setting an example… [16:46] shrysr_: not that my cv is perfect – but there were SO many that were SO much worse…… i guess he took the hint and started doing so himself. It wasn't totally useless… but there was a lot more crap than I could digest. [16:46] shrysr_: diana_coman: re my own business… yes. ultimately very much so. I recognised from my first paycheque and all subsequent jobs and companies that they dont care… i wanted to gather 'experience' and 'expertise' and believed I would just know when I was ready. [16:49] diana_coman: well, BingoBoingo here just upped and moved from the US to Uruguay to start an ISP, you know? It's not like you can get experience at running a business by being an employee; what you can get is connections but those are context-dependent i.e. connections with Microsoft won't help you here (and probably the other way around). [16:54] diana_coman: shrysr_: is the current employment place paying too little for where you are or what's exactly the change you want? at least until last week it seemed to be comfortable in that it left you with plenty of time and energy to actually do the things that matter otherwise (and this is rarer than you might think) [16:57] shrysr_: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000708 << I know what you mean. I don't expect a career from any soul sucking employer either… TBH – i just want a better baseline. i've shifted continents pursuing a fucking baseline…. there have been many days I've been reduced to tears trying to figure out wtf….. is it that I want something that doesnt exist. Am i fucking mentally ill. [16:58] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 16:45:59 diana_coman: shrysr_: re job in general, consider this – getting employed for a high salary means first of all that *they* have a higher claim to you (your time, your energy and you overall), that's all; it does *not* mean at all that you get to do interesting stuff or intelligently-stimulating environment or anything of the sort, not by or in itself; and moreover it doesn't mean something long-term either, a "career" or anything of the sort. [16:58] diana_coman: what is "baseline" for you exactly? [17:01] diana_coman: "is it that I want something that doesnt exist" – from what I saw of you so far I suspect it's something that exists but here, not there anymore; but the shape of what used to be is still there and at a superficial look passes (and claims to pass) for the real thing; it's a long thread this, you might want to come back to it at a later time for more. [17:10] shrysr_: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000713 : after coming here I realised there are places where ppl are mostly uneducated and there are ppl on whom education is completely wasted. Volatile with no standards and who are accustomed to doing what they wish when they want to. As such there is no pressure… but business is Very slow atm, and suddenly turned focus to me…. i mostly get blank [17:11] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 16:57:55 diana_coman: shrysr_: is the current employment place paying too little for where you are or what's exactly the change you want? at least until last week it seemed to be comfortable in that it left you with plenty of time and energy to actually do the things that matter otherwise (and this is rarer than you might think) [17:11] shrysr_: stares from them when explaining what I am doing and why …. even had a stifled yawn once. Thats only on occassional discussions where I summon all my will power to convey progress report….. [17:11] diana_coman: "there are ppl on whom education is completely wasted" – certainly true; and not a little thing to have truly figured out for yourself, either. [17:13] shrysr_: dont need to work with geniuses and sure there's plenty i learned here….and I've converted many opportunities in the past… and a little bit here. but this is a different hell altogether. Atm baseline might mean any where else lol. but a real definition would a place where I can stomach… and have enough $ to be comfortable and take care of my parents too… not that they need it at all. but still. [17:15] diana_coman: shrysr_: ok, so what sort of place can you stomach? i.e. what is it that you *must* have? (for that matter: india should be quite cheap as living expenses esp if you can work remotely otherwise and get paid western salary, no?) [17:17] diana_coman: is refraining from overloading shrysr_ 's reading list, as each new reply pings another ref, really.x01 [17:18] shrysr_: yes, much easier to do so on western salary in india. not that its cheap, like say indonesia or something (atleast that used to be the case when I was a kid idk now). there are other home advantages for that matter… like staying at my parents place. Abt a month ago i reconnected with a close friend who's a business head… he's extremely interested in setting up the analytics and backbone for his venture [17:25] shrysr_: related to 'easily getting loans'… i was almost ready to pack up and invest what little i had and take a shot. [17:26] diana_coman: that sounds like the sort of thing that will eat you up entirely though, not exactly gaining your full independence but rather the very opposite of it [17:29] diana_coman: but for that matter, why not invite the friend to make himself a rsa key and get in the wot, anyway? [17:29] diana_coman: the "easily getting loans" though sounds more like a …scam at base. [17:29] shrysr_: LOL he is not a tehcnical guy at ALL. [17:29] shrysr_: no – my parents are pretty cool…. and there are still other options…. they've been setting up another place for 'retirement' anyway. i cd go there. lol. [17:30] shrysr_: he called his web platform on godaddy an analytics platform. [17:31] diana_coman: shrysr_: I think you should really answer this btw: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929779 [17:33] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 07:58:24 mp_en_viaje: shrysr, what the heck are you doing, anyways ? [17:33] shrysr_: i kindda saw that very late and did not know what to say. [17:35] diana_coman: shrysr_: re independence it's not really to do with your parents directly; it's how you position yourself in there mainly; and possibly the overall environment esp if it sucks you in/drags you down some ways. [17:35] diana_coman: shrysr_: as a rule if "do not know what to say" , the thing to do is to …say that and ask for clarification re what the question is (or whatever it is that you don't get) [17:38] shrysr_: ok. [17:39] diana_coman: re friend though, if his idea of a business involves a platform on godaddy, I'd advise to steer clear of it; not sure what "business head" that reflects either. [17:40] diana_coman: shrysr_: re your "chasing the baseline" and the longer threads gently pulled at in all the above, there are lots of posts that you should gradually work your way to and will probably hit all sorts of nerves. [17:44] diana_coman: but for just one distilled bit of a crucial part, read this short thread: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926660 [17:45] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 03:58:26 trinque: mp_en_viaje: if you were just cresting 7 fig in 2019 what would you throw yourself into? [17:45] shrysr_: re friend – he wanted to build a platform – but i meant that his technical / software knowledge is such that he was thinking that gettting an email notification from a form on his website hosted on godaddy already meant he had stepped into analytics. the business is already up and running since a while…. the platform is to fuel 'expansion' and setup a real system… etc. [17:45] diana_coman: shrysr_: does that make any sense to you? [17:52] diana_coman: will be back tomorrowx01 [18:03] shrysr_: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000729 << well – i believe to a good extent atleast – very likely. because he uses contacts to sanction loans that don't get sanctioned by normal channels, and also has no accountability. There were several 'good selling points' in the pitch, but the fact of the matter is that most guys in a country like india think that ppl out west earn truck loads and [18:39] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 17:29:53 diana_coman: the "easily getting loans" though sounds more like a …scam at base. [18:39] shrysr_: are awesome targets for investments atleast. I was viewing it only from the perspective of an opportunity to setup a platform….. my dads first reaction was the same as yours and his advice was to use it as a project and not get involved until an absolutely lucid picture was available… i had to concede that it made more sense than going back. [18:39] shrysr_: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-26#1000741 << it does, especially the part about power and hanging out with cool ppl. I guess I would not define cool the same way though I see what is meant. The baseline pursual across continents was about hanging out with cool(er) ppl and work ethics. i.e it was not 'money driven' at all, because the assumption in general (still is) that the money would [19:03] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 17:45:48 diana_coman: but for just one distilled bit of a crucial part, read this short thread: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926660 [19:03] shrysr_: take care of itself if other fundamentals were done right. That being said – i had to fight for all the 'raises' i got despite explicit evidence of results. [19:03] #ossasepia Logs for 25 Aug 2019
diana_coman: jmsb hello, hang around a bit and it might happen [02:44] diana_coman: hello jmsb [16:20] diana_coman: shrysr_: how's the weekly report coming out? [16:30] shrysr_: diana_coman: working on it. I'm stuck deciphering the vdiff code on CH's article and was hoping to complete atleast that before posting.. I'm also not yet clear on signatures (the hash part, where the convo trailed off in #gnupg). Luckily, before the redirect of focus – i had some progress on the other tasks. [16:39] diana_coman: shrysr_: do note that CH's article is relatively old so possibly not fully up to date. [16:39] diana_coman: and the report is just that: a report of what actually got done/happened. [16:40] asciilifeform: shrysr_: i wrote that v & vdiff — so dun hesitate to ask , if yer stuck [16:41] shrysr_: yes. My plan is to post with the questions / points where i am stuck so you / Stan can help me… I would really like to crack it myself… but i'm mostly tired with the salt mine shit sucking my time energy this week…. it shd get okay once I have the base stuff up. [16:42] shrysr_: the steam lisp article has sort of stuck with me…. its not like the idea of the story was new… but i cd understand what was meant abt the 'mistake', and i think i see what asciilifeform meant about software. I think that article also had a reference to the QWERTY keyboard's popularity story, which has also stuck. I was reflecting that while I recognised it…. as an end user – i was more focused on [16:49] shrysr_: figuring out ways around it… and I did not reflect about Why the fuck the problem was there in the first place. [16:49] asciilifeform: shrysr_: typically, if you want actual solution to , yer stuck finding out 'why was there in the first place' [16:50] asciilifeform: shrysr_: — otherwise you will end up with spackle . [16:50] diana_coman: the above being said, you need to know how to *choose* what problems to solve at a given time or otherwise you risk not doing anything at all or getting overwhelmed too. [16:52] shrysr_: asciilifeform: right! spackle.. i get that. hehe. and that actually sucks. [16:59] shrysr_: diana_coman: yes… I've been consciously trying to do so. I guess any progress on the tasks in the last 2 weeks is because i'm starting to make relatively better choices. Consciously forcing myself to re-read has also helped a lot… in combination with smaller steps and stopping myself to want to get it all in a single go all the time. [17:09] diana_coman: shrysr_: realise that the key to getting to do "what you want/like" is simply to learn first to have…better "likes". That's the core of the issue. [17:11] shrysr_: you mean the liking to get it in a single shot ? [17:11] diana_coman: basically it takes a whole lot of focused work *before* you can trust your "likes" [17:12] diana_coman: no [17:12] diana_coman: I mean the original "I want to do just what I like/enjoy" first of all [17:12] diana_coman: but it's also true that as you know more/get better at various things, you will also get more faster so *some* may end up as "single shot" [17:13] diana_coman: anyway: why the fixation on "in a single shot"? [17:13] diana_coman: faster and deeper* [17:26] shrysr_: I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile… I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my [17:31] shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things — i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)… struggling to get EACH job i've got so far… Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was [17:31] shrysr_: awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress… and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont – it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself. [17:31] diana_coman: shrysr_: there are quite a few things in there that seem conflated into a single one for no good reason. [17:34] diana_coman: let's try a bit of detangling: [17:34] diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000509 – a feeling of inadequacy can be a very helpful thing actually; but the conclusion you got there doesn't follow at all [17:35] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:33 shrysr_: I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile… I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my [17:35] diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 – this sounds like your drive really and there's nothing wrong with it in itself i.e. yes, young people WANT TO MATTER, of course, what else. [17:36] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:36 shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things — i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)… struggling to get EACH job i've got so far… Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was [17:36] diana_coman: there is the relatively modern trouble of "can matter over night" impression + not allowed to actually matter in everyday environment because it's broken [17:37] diana_coman: combined those can quite make it terrible indeed but realise that 1. wanting to matter is normal and actually useful! 2. it's not going to happen overnight and moreover it's not about "getting anything and everything in one go" [17:39] diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000511 – looking always at what you could have done better/ improvement does NOT mean /need to mean that you are "never happy no matter what" [17:40] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:38 shrysr_: awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress… and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont – it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself. [17:40] diana_coman: fwiw I had this sort of exchange as a student myself: me: wtf I was so stupid and did so poorly at X!!! prof: but most in the group did even worse!! me: even if plenty others were *even more stupid than me* it does not mean I wasn't an idiot!! [17:42] diana_coman: to make it clear: evaluating yourself objectively and falling constantly short of an ideal is a good way to get where you want i.e. to improve and matter; at the same time, you need to be aware of improvements too and to be happy for what you learnt even while you look at where you still got it wrong. [17:44] diana_coman: so keep your eyes on the ideal, sure, but don't deny your own improvements so far, either. [17:45] diana_coman: in fewer words: be happy but don't become content/complacent. [17:47] diana_coman: and ftr the blog and public, explicit record is precisely what helps you with the above since you can track the improvements. [17:48] diana_coman: finally, re "not getting some things I really wanted" – this can be a tough nut but the root cause there is that you… wanted the wrong things basically. [17:50] diana_coman: shrysr_: fwiw I don't think you had much struggle to get in here, had you? [17:51] diana_coman: "wrong" above means simply not fitting you/your *needs* at that moment. [17:52] diana_coman: actual needs, quite often different from "wants" [17:52] shrysr_: get in 'here' as in ? [17:52] diana_coman: as in my accepting to mentor you. [17:53] shrysr_: no, I guess not. that it happened still feels surreal at times with some doubt if i am good enough to be worthy of it. [17:55] asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 << fwiw asciilifeform wasn't 100\% cured of envying the academic types until worked, at length, with them (as a civilian) and saw close-up what their daily grind in fact consisted of (i.e. quite unlike the naive picture of 'blue sky research' where 'do what you want' ) [17:57] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:36 shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things — i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)… struggling to get EACH job i've got so far… Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was [17:57] diana_coman: shrysr_: focus on doing the best work you are able to and don't worry about that sort of evaluation – that's my call and therefore not your worry anymore. [17:59] diana_coman: asciilifeform: nowadays academia is anyway just another bureaucracy really so not much "academia" left in it. [17:59] asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm aware, worked in several of the 'epicentres' of said bureaucracy [18:00] asciilifeform: even 1 time found myself sitting in the 9th circle of hell, usg's 'darpa' [18:01] diana_coman: at least 10+ years ago when I was in it, there was *still* way more scope for "do what you want" than in most industry jobs but the higher one went up the hierarchy the less of it essentially and anyway meanwhile from what I saw it only got worse. [18:01] diana_coman: heh, I never was that famous :D ; and moreover I refused to even answer google's invite for interview (most probably sent to all phd students that had published at that conference or something). [18:02] asciilifeform: diana_coman: i luckily avoided 'famous' [18:02] asciilifeform: met, however, scores of 'emeritus', 'tenure' types, who could ~on paper~ 'do what want' but in practice could only sit and doze off on committees, cuz by the time one reaches said rank, the productive years are ~gone [18:02] asciilifeform: sorta like in army, errybody wants to be a general ~like zhukov~ , who was general at 30, and not e.g. like voroshilov, who dozed off in politburo for last 20yrs of life [18:04] diana_coman: hm, that is a different failure mode; fwiw I remember having C.A. Hoare as teacher at a summer school and he was already not exactly young but still more active and alive than a lot of way younger other academics. [18:04] asciilifeform: modern-day bureaucracies dun like zhukovs, and they've mostly existed the stage consequently [18:04] asciilifeform: diana_coman: interesting. [18:05] asciilifeform: blows dust off ancient vol. of hoare's 'functional prog.'x01 [18:05] asciilifeform: diana_coman: i didn't have a live hoare. had however a summer under one r. sagdeev, ex chair of su space works. he married some ameri-princess 1/3 his age and ended up in usa. but by that time was just about ready for nursing home, so i have 0 to brag about re that episode. [18:06] diana_coman: aha; although he was actually super-approachable and genuinely interested in connecting, I was in too much awe to do much other than *listen*. [18:07] diana_coman: well, I can't say there something I have to brag re above – if anything, a missed chance on my part. [18:08] asciilifeform: generally by the time somebody is 'great academic'(tm) , is only fit for telling tales to grand-children [18:08] asciilifeform: just about errybody i ever met who had episode with 'greats'(tm)(r), all fit this pattern [18:09] asciilifeform: bureaucracy doesn't promote anyone to 'greats' until he's entirely 'harmless' [18:09] asciilifeform: google, microshit, et al have entire academi-nursinghomes fulla these types. [18:10] asciilifeform: they collectively sum to ~0. [18:10] diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, maybe because he was – even admitedly – the "purely theoretic" type? in his own words that I can still hear as such, for their contrast to the obvious knowledge of his domain otherwise : "I am disgracefully ignorant of the real life" [18:11] asciilifeform: not even because 'theorists' but because decades of 'administrator' . [18:12] asciilifeform: it's ~exact equiv. of 'promoted to management' in soft. industry [18:12] diana_coman: ah, I got the impression he eschewed that, at least in part with precisely the above "excuse" . [18:13] asciilifeform: motion in the reverse direction is rare, but not unheard of. at the uni here, we had a fella who spent a decade as dean, and then demanded — successfully — to be made an ordinary practicing prof again. [18:14] diana_coman: ah, hm; based on my limited experience I thought it was everywhere that deans changed every 4 years or whatever other intervals; guess not, huh. [18:15] asciilifeform: nao teaches, iirc, thermodynamics, 1ce/week [18:15] diana_coman: 1001 models; iirc in France they even had 2 paths – one that included teaching and one that did not; I can't quite recall what they were called/ how did it work exactly but there was at least the option; then again, research grants and then "management" tend to eat a lot of "research" time anyway nowadays. [18:16] asciilifeform: in the cases asciilifeform personally witnessed — it eats ~100\% [18:16] asciilifeform: worked — as civilian, was drummed outta academia-proper for poor marks, from not giving enuff of a shit — for succession of elderly academician types. all had quite unenviable life, consisting largely of cock-pulling-in-a-circle aka 'peer review' and grantsmanship, aka beggingx01 [18:18] diana_coman: well, they enjoyed tenure I suppose. [18:19] asciilifeform: 'enjoyed' like voroshilov enjoyed politburo. [18:19] diana_coman: dunno, there is no such thing as one-sided interaction; if they stay there, it quite follows they find it enjoyable enough, what can I say. [18:20] asciilifeform: 'stay' comes in 2 variant, 1 where 'enjoy enuff', other — where legs w/ which to walk away — atrophied . [18:21] diana_coman: really now; and mouths to shout with also atrophied and arms to hit with also atrophied and on and on but somehow there is still something there to "not like it but suffer greatly" [18:22] diana_coman: this sounds very much like "rezistenta prin cultura" to me# [18:22] asciilifeform: diana_coman: not specifically. just that when d00d is 80 y.o. and the spark of life long ago departed, he will tend to stay wherever he is. [18:24] asciilifeform: 'doesn't like' isn't even an applicable formulation. instead, vegetative existence, like oak. [18:24] diana_coman: well, retired, yes; but if "spark of life long ago departed" then there isn't all that much to talk about in the first place, what can one do. [18:25] asciilifeform: oak, will move, if someone gives enuff of a shit to dig it up and plant in new park. s. for instance was moved, in just such a way. [18:25] asciilifeform: ( by clinton et al, for no particularly useful purpose afaik ) [18:25] diana_coman: sure, if passive then no agency and no "likes", no argument there. [18:26] asciilifeform: afaik it was part of a largely aimless orgy of 'let's remove anyffin of any prestige whatsoever from old corpse of sovok, even the oaks' [18:26] diana_coman: could at least retire though, in fairness, under pretty much any terms, from "you know best, it's your turn, let me be" to "don't want to have anything to do with you" and everything in between; not like 80 y.o. *has to* be part of shit. [18:28] asciilifeform: not all emigre academics ended in bureaucracy. some instead — to drive taxi. or teach freshman chemistry to halfwit footballists. met also these. [18:28] diana_coman: but anyway, if living dead already, there's nobody there to talk about anymore essentially. [18:29] asciilifeform: diana_coman: in usa 'retire' typically is not any longer a thing. 'colt '45 retirement corporation.' [18:29] diana_coman: were the taxi drivers saner? [18:29] asciilifeform: not detectably. [18:30] asciilifeform: folx who were finely honed for world which then proceeded to disappear, will, i suspect, ~always register as at least mildly lunatic [18:31] asciilifeform: see also e.g. [18:32] snsabot: Logged on 2018-09-08 11:34:13 asciilifeform: sometimes ~entirely identical — i recall reading of one physics d00d who was convinced that he will 'get rich' in nyc, selling… poetry [18:32] diana_coman: I have to admit I have trouble picturing this "can't retire anymore", possibly because of my thoroughly european background that included plenty of old people on no pension to speak of (100 euros/month in the best case) and still perfectly retired; some giving piano lessons to live if needed, others eating the bit they could plant on some poor soil, but anyways) [18:32] asciilifeform: diana_coman: the correct model is 1990s sovok. yes d00d gets 'pension', but after coupla yrs of inflation, it adds up to maybe 'eat cat food' [18:33] diana_coman: sure, see above [18:33] diana_coman: as I said: I know plenty of "no actual pension" but still happier to retire than to stay in there where they even perceived they simply don't …belong. [18:34] asciilifeform: as for 'piano lesson', i know several folx who actually skipped straight to that stage in their 30s (didn't make it to actual academia, despite diplomas) and nao tutor flunking freshmen 7 days / wk for coupla bux / hr [18:34] diana_coman: well, at least not oaks, I'd count them for having a better deal despite what it might seem otherwise. [18:35] diana_coman: I suppose a different generation in the end, the difference stems more likely from there, simply. [18:36] asciilifeform: the operative bit is that none of asciilifeform's acquaintances see their pos as having 'deal', but as a pit into which they happened to fall in, and whatever attempts to climb out — failed. diana_coman's pov where 'people have choice', i do not think is wrong as such, but to asciilifeform extremely 'martian', i do not anywhere in civilian life encounter people who perceive this 'choice'. they work in whatever work they were able [18:37] asciilifeform: to find. [18:37] diana_coman: that strikes me as a very interesting reversal of the usual image of americans-as-most-enterprising-individuals; then again, my actual knowledge of USA has always been extremely limited (and by now it's probably also very outdated). [18:40] asciilifeform: i know even people who 'took choice' — after maths diploma — of becoming hobo. nao their 'choice' consists of which alley to sleep inside. [18:40] shrysr_: lolz!!! [18:40] asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'don't spin the globe, you will not find' mark twain's usa on it. [18:40] asciilifeform: never lived in twain's usa , only this 1.x01 [18:42] diana_coman: asciilifeform: I didn't count my reading of mark twain's as knowledge of the USA, lolz! I did see Boston and I did interact with quite a few americans some years ago – that part was what I counted as my "extremely limited" knowledge. [18:42] asciilifeform: diana_coman: there is added vexation (esp. among emigres & potential emigres) because in initial stages of progression 'from prof to hobo' there is typically a phase of stockholm syndrome, where the 'patient' is convinced (and will loudly proclaim) that he is 'success' [18:43] diana_coman: fwiw by "interacted" I mean both over some years in Ro and otherwise abroad in various contexts; I suppose I count inevitably also the second-hand experience of my parents to some extent. [18:43] asciilifeform: diana_coman: ftr ( at least where asciilifeform has personally done time ) there are ~0 'americans' (in the born-in-usa sense) in academia — at least sci/eng. ~100\% emigres / children of same [18:45] asciilifeform: i've met ~0 , with the prominent exception of the maffs hobos [18:45] asciilifeform: solid wall of cn/in/kr/ex-sovok. [18:46] diana_coman: hm, as I said: quite likely totally outdated; fwiw my experience did not involve almost any cn/in/kr/ex-sovok (or at least not obviously so, I never actually checked specifically); anyways, I can easily see it as current situation. [18:48] asciilifeform: for all i know — they're all in boston. did not do any time in boston. [18:48] diana_coman: lolz! [18:48] diana_coman: can be; the 2nd hand experience was Texas though (petroleum industry). [18:49] asciilifeform: trinque might know moar about what happens there. [18:49] diana_coman: I suspect it's not happening anymore; that part is the oldest indeed and it was some 20 years ago already. [18:50] diana_coman: shrysr_: how's then in New Jersey since I gather you actually know that part of the USA? [18:51] asciilifeform: diana_coman: to add a few brush strokes to the picture of usa — and perhaps already you knew — 1) most folx get ~0 'vacation'. they nominally get '2 wks' but is reserved in practice for illness ; 2) are paid just enuff to stay alive (and locate themselves within vicinity of the mines) , 2-3 missed weeks of pay means destitution . [18:53] asciilifeform: there is a reason you won't see many americans (of working age) 'hiking in the carpathians' etc [18:54] shrysr_: the time i spent in NJ was fleeting… 2-3 weeks at the most. spent a month in oklahoma ….2 years of remote dealing with americans in last salt mine. general impression of americans is that there is a very small \% of the ppl who have brains and the rest are ridiculously dumb, and make up for inadequacy by being rude. [18:54] diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw I have some former uni colleagues who work (predictably i.e. specifically aimed for and did everything and anything needed for it) at microsoft and have plenty of vacation and money; I'm ready to admit they are probably exceptions overall/few out of the total population ofc. [18:57] asciilifeform: ( and , interestingly, 1+2 apply equally to janitor and to engineer who nominally paid 5x moar ) [18:57] shrysr_: don't see canada to be terribly different in 2 years… but they are certainly not rude ppl. very polite. [18:57] asciilifeform: diana_coman: i never did time at microshit, admittedly. the largest co. ever was in (excluding usg) was 'reuters', where 'princely'… 3 wks. [18:58] diana_coman: shrysr_: heh, politeness indeed to the point of apologizing when it's not their fault, that much I know, yes. [18:58] diana_coman: that being said, those microsoft-guys tend to complain re how kids are taught ("he's not stupid so he noticed how he can fool the test", "now I have to add X to teaching him at home too") but at the same time won't move because "there is nothing else that is just as intellectually interesting and paying such ridiculous amounts of money" [19:00] asciilifeform: diana_coman: also interestingly, the 'ridiculous moneys' evaporate pretty fast if you, say, want own flat near that microshit [19:00] asciilifeform: ( in the epicentre of the retardation, palo alto , a cockroach-infested 1 room flat goes for 5-6k u.s. ) [19:01] diana_coman: asciilifeform: I admit I never had the stomach to engage them *that* much; fwiw I couldn't stand them during uni precisely for the very same microsoft-is-great-no-matter-what brown nosing basicly so what can I say. [19:01] asciilifeform: to work at microshit is, largely, its own punishment [19:02] diana_coman: so quite possibly that's true; and yes iirc at least one was/is in palo alto; I have no idea where/in what lives with wife (microsoft too) + kids. [19:03] asciilifeform: keep in mind that it is difficult to get truthful answers out of such folx, outside of a 'hanging upside-down and plugged into mains socket' setting [19:04] diana_coman: honestly, I'm not *that* interested to even ask; plenty of more useful things to do. [19:04] asciilifeform: the folx who belong being interested ( on acct of being about to jump into the pit ) generally aint, until too late, typically. [19:05] diana_coman: shrysr_: I hope you are not going to miss your deadline because of the convo here :D [19:07] asciilifeform: re 'folx in usa w/ plenty of money', admittedly i dun hang out with w. buffett . but also met people who ~think~ 'plenty of money' , and as a rule the 'plenty' can evaporate overnight ( break a leg; go a coupla months w/out work ; tax collector decides you didn't pay enuff ; 9000 other 'surprise' and 'poof' . ) [19:08] diana_coman: that is probably the case i.e. not poof-proof [19:10] diana_coman: and now we have a new money-word: is your money poof-proof? [19:10] asciilifeform: aha, not even remotely 'proof', not even 'resistant' in the style of asciilifeform's dollar-store wristwatch in '92 being 'water resistant' [19:10] asciilifeform: bbl : meat chores .x01 [19:14] #ossasepia Logs for 24 Aug 2019
jmsb: hullo. i came across this reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/cnlfpx/the_tar_pit_hunchentoot_further_architectural/ and the 'about' of that tarpit blog read like my kind of cryptic. i poked/googled about and then came across this post https://dev.to/dianacoman/come-work-on-what-matters-so-you-matter-too-2h3m bringing me to this intro :) [22:09] jmsb: diana_coman: hi! i'd love to chat about/dig into the mentioned 'fully-documented rationale as to why Ada' [22:12] #ossasepia Logs for 23 Aug 2019
lobbes_field: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/on-relationships-or-how-pretense-kills/comment-page-1/#comment-71 << Welp, I (and my blog) just ate my own words; pre tags didn't do shit that time haha. Indeed some buggage going on. [12:05] lobbes_field: Will look into this one back from mines.. [12:06] diana_coman: lobbes_field: it's in #trilema log, danielpbarron's solution [12:06] lobbes_field: Aha, ty. Will do some searching [12:06] diana_coman: php version on server is newer and silently breaks a function in the mp-wp sources [12:06] diana_coman: you just need to change one line; or simply look into hanbot's patch for it and manually do the change [12:07] lobbes_field: Nice. Tyvm [12:07] #ossasepia Logs for 21 Aug 2019
asciilifeform: trinque: dunno why you'd even bother with oopism for such a thing. it aint as if yer gonna have 9000 of'em going in 1 proggy [00:57] shrysr: diana: salt mine shit: I've been told to 'release' i.e make the the ERP system accessible to others… some other changes like hours of work too… I need to redirect focus for a bit till this. The target is 2 weeks.. I may not do great on the weekly tasks – but i intend to do what I can. [11:31] shrysr: diana_alt: ^ [11:32] diana_alt: shrysr: ok; 10 lines of v.py though should fit in 1 week if all the other tasks can wait, right? [11:34] diana_alt: this sort of situation is precisely where priorities are used: pick only top priority and focus on that first and foremost [11:35] shrysr: yes. [11:36] #ossasepia Logs for 20 Aug 2019
diana_alt: ugh, no deedbot [14:44] asciilifeform: apparently not [14:45] diana_alt: asciilifeform: 4 runs of curl http://54.209.217.34/log/trilema/2018-04-18#1802801 > /dev/null give http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1llzt/?raw=true [14:49] asciilifeform: ty diana_alt ! [14:50] asciilifeform: diana_alt: imho thus far errything points to the ~pipe~ [14:52] asciilifeform: given e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929698 [14:52] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 16:38:26 asciilifeform: … from here eats 0.268s. [14:52] diana_alt: BingoBoingo: do you mind waiting until the end of this week for the payment of the Pizarro invoice for my rk? [14:53] diana_alt: asciilifeform: it would seem so, yes. [14:54] asciilifeform: diana_alt: btw what sorta load time do you get for 'heavy page' from phf's log [14:55] asciilifeform: ? [14:55] asciilifeform: ( his also iirc in usa ) [14:55] BingoBoingo: diana_alt: No problem at all [14:56] diana_alt: BingoBoingo: thanks! [14:58] diana_alt: asciilifeform: hm, a bit longer if anything: real is around 1.5s on 4 runs [14:58] diana_alt: same precise page [14:59] asciilifeform: diana_alt: the mirror is on largest spam isp in usa (lulazon) and actually can be moved between a dozen or so locations , we can experiment later if want [15:00] diana_alt: specifically: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/su9en/?raw=true [15:00] asciilifeform: ( they have a thing where you can pick in what city ) [15:00] asciilifeform: atm i vaguely suspect that tcp on piz is slowed by an inept wiretap somewhere. [15:01] asciilifeform: diana_alt: my log pages are slightly heavier than phf's, he had 'minimized' css , some scheme for cutting out unprinted whitespace also [15:02] asciilifeform: it's not a huge diff tho iirc [15:03] diana_alt: no, not a huge difference anyway; tbh for the moment I can't see much more info to be gotten out of further simple timing tests (or maybe I just don't see it) [15:08] asciilifeform: diana_alt: thus far seems to me that we're seeing 100\% pipe effect [15:09] asciilifeform: ( as confirmed by lobbes , my logtron generates the page in approx same time it takes to move the mouse button. can't say re phf's , likely same ) [15:09] asciilifeform: i.e. no amt of massage of the proggy is going to make a perceptible diff re load time. [15:10] diana_alt: I agree it looks 100\% pipe effect [15:10] asciilifeform: imho what's needed, is http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929756 . [15:11] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 21:52:50 asciilifeform: rly what we oughta have is 7+ ~active~ bots/logotrons on 7 continents, then no one will have to grumble 'wai slow' [15:11] diana_alt: asciilifeform: do you recommend just mirroring them on heathen vms? [15:11] asciilifeform: it poses some difficulty; e.g. the 1 i used, is in fact banned from fleanode (unless sslized) on acct of spam [15:12] asciilifeform: but proggy is lightweight enuff that it in fact runs a++ in cheapo pseudohosters [15:12] asciilifeform: (observe that rubbish-mirror has no bot, it is synced via db dump / cron ) [15:13] asciilifeform: seems that any host service which offers traditional python2, will run the thing. [15:14] diana_alt: looking at it from the other side, why not just mirror them in the cheapest way too; supposedly there still are some that are not banned on acct of spam either; [15:14] asciilifeform: it took me just slightly over half hour to set up the example mirror. [15:14] asciilifeform: ( all of the necessary instructions, i think are in the readme ) [15:15] asciilifeform: note that the bot doesn't need to be voiced in order to log. [15:16] diana_alt: asciilifeform: I still tend to do a *2 for myself on all your timings; but in any case, it's still on my list for when I get back to my desk [15:16] asciilifeform: diana_alt: the moar, the merrier. [15:16] diana_alt: asciilifeform: maybe add those cron/instructions as a patch though? [15:18] asciilifeform: diana_alt: it's defo going in next patch. [15:18] diana_alt: i.e. add to the readme or something so one doesn't need to dig in the logs [15:18] diana_alt: great, thanks! [15:18] asciilifeform: imho mirrors synced via cron aint especially useful tho [15:18] asciilifeform: as they don't help to bridge gaps in log in the event the bot (of which atm there is only 1, of my type) is bumped [15:18] diana_alt: sure; that doesn't mean they don't help in any other way though [15:19] asciilifeform: a proper logtron oughta have own bot, going in realtime [15:19] diana_alt: sure [15:19] asciilifeform: the lulazon mirror, i set up specifically to probe q of 'is proggy/web stack slow' [15:19] asciilifeform: as soon as someone sets up proper mirror (i.e. with working bot), we can start on the q of how to auto-sync. [15:22] asciilifeform: ( it prolly has not escaped diana_alt's notice, that in so doing we're more or less rebuilding the relevant pieces irc ) [15:23] asciilifeform: *of irc [15:23] asciilifeform: btw re the cron : the instructions posted in log earlier do not in fact result in a working auto-cronsync ; turns out that it is necessary to run 'init_db' script prior to importing a dump, or postgres barfs . this results in 5 or so min. down time (i.e. machine shows empty log) [15:26] asciilifeform: i have not conceived of any simple pill against this, of yet. [15:26] asciilifeform: imho such mirroring is not all that useful, so did not put serious effort into any such thing as e.g. 'trim the dump so doesn't conflict with existing' [15:27] asciilifeform: any auto-sync really oughta use the 'raw-export' knob (implemented — emitter, but no receiver of yet) [15:31] diana_alt: yes, a proper separate working bot (ideally many of them) is the real need; this sort of mirrors are lowest-effort and a rather different thing, can't see any reason to spend a lot of time on them either [15:31] asciilifeform: diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=1000404&iend=1000461 << example [15:33] asciilifeform: diana_alt: imho errybody in l1 oughta have a working bot. (dun even have to be copy of mine, but oughta emit same 'raw' format ideally) [15:37] diana_alt: shrysr: those copy/paste bits on your blog – what's exactly their role/your idea with them? they don't quite make posts for sure; are you trying to build a sort of reference list there or what? [15:37] diana_alt: asciilifeform: I think I even said as much before, yes; it might have been as a comment on trilema though, can't seem to find it quickly right now. [15:41] diana_alt: the above re every lord should run a bot as an even more basic requisite than running a node [15:42] diana_alt: there, found it, last line in http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-goes-dark/#comment-130485 [15:44] shrysr: I replied to your comment… they are not posts. It was meant to be a reference… and I guess I liked the story quite a bit. [22:45] trinque: funny thing is, looking back on it… it was bad lisp! [22:46] trinque: the class and method naming at the very least, written like some java dork [22:46] #ossasepia Logs for 19 Aug 2019
shrysr: okay – I have redone the website following the guideline and this is my report : https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/conforming-to-a-blog-design-outline/ [01:41] shrysr: above comments on the website are addressed / resolved. [01:42] shrysr: WEek 5 review is up on younghands http://younghands.club/2019/08/19/week-5-review/ [01:42] shrysr: I will post the tasks for the next week tomorrow first thing. [01:43] diana_alt: shrysr: much more readable indeed! [02:04] diana_alt: and as a result, you have feedback in the comments there [02:48] shrysr: yay! I did think it was much better maself. I've replied to some comments. the weekly task list is posted on young hands http://younghands.club/2019/08/19/week-6-plan/ [12:42] shrysr: When I read an article and there are references to other material peppered through it :- i tend to get 'lost' following those links. I'm getting better at not getting distracted – but is there a 'right' way to do it? [13:06] BingoBoingo: One way to do it is read the whole thing, note the links, then after giving the linked material a read or two, re-read the original. [13:15] BingoBoingo: You can try playing with how you map the reading of linked versus your target piece, but the essence of reading is in re-reading [13:17] shrysr: i needed to hear that because re-reading is something I do not practice well… i also tend to get pissed off (with myself) if i don't get it immediately or can't recall / relive a concept… leading to a cascading 'avoidance' of many things. I know better, but I've not really worked on steps or a methodical approach to counter this. I'm going to try your advice. [13:34] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-19#1000352 – yes, there is; remember that knowledge is essentially a tree; as such, you should simply write down and then come back to branches not-yet-explored; and for that matter, as BingoBoingo says, you *have to* revisit and re-read, of course! [13:36] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 13:06:49 shrysr: When I read an article and there are references to other material peppered through it :- i tend to get 'lost' following those links. I'm getting better at not getting distracted – but is there a 'right' way to do it? [13:36] diana_alt: shrysr: the basic rule is that you'll need to go through each thing at least 3 times to get it but that's more of a lower bound than anything else really [13:37] diana_alt: things worth reading are worth re-reading as your knowledge increases since you'll notice and make other connections too [13:38] diana_alt: and that's pretty much how you evaluate text too – if it's not worth re-reading, it wasn't much in there to start with [13:38] shrysr: okay. I will work it. [13:41] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000295 – captivating read. asciilifeform the link to the james watt book is dead… I found one at http://www.jameswatt.info/andrew-carnegie/7-second-patent.html [13:42] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:34:47 asciilifeform: e.g. microshit, if it were turbine, would be one that turns maybe on odd-numbered wednesdays, and the bulk of effort of the vendor goes into making elaborate excuses for why, and offering service where sends dudes to turn crank manually if you really need rotation to happen [13:42] diana_alt: shrysr: basically there's plenty worth reading and time is still limited so best not waste any of it on reading platform/adverts/signalling/talking-out-of-no-experience-but-being-a-great-guy spew [13:46] diana_alt: better re-read something worthy than waste the time on "the best 10 tools for x" and the like [13:47] diana_alt: " Complete partially finished " – lolz how this sounds [13:48] BingoBoingo: shrysr: The one undisputably useful thing a professor said when I was doing graduate philosphy at SIU was that you are only reading if you are re-reading [13:51] diana_alt: BingoBoingo: if only they said that more often, you know? [13:53] BingoBoingo: diana_alt: Seriously, noone said that during US undergrad, or highschool, or … [13:54] diana_alt: I can believe that, sadly, yes; none of my teachers ever said it explicitly either (I sat here trying hard to find at least one who might have said it) although in fairness it was at least an implicit requirement that yes, of course you read the thing *many* times, wtf is one read going to do [13:59] diana_alt: shrysr: 1. do you know you can use feedbot to notify you of any new comments and/or articles for blogs/posts of interest? [14:18] diana_alt: re feedbot see http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/081-feedbot-manual.html [14:19] diana_alt: shrysr: never mind, you need to be L1 so not yet; leave feedbot alone [14:21] diana_alt: shrysr: re tasks list: what's the order there? [14:22] shrysr: in terms of priority ? I cd not really decide. [14:24] shrysr: incomplete tasks spilling over from last week are the first priority as such. [14:25] shrysr: did you mean in your comment – that i should put a hold on reading the book land of lisp? Its actually fun to read. [14:27] shrysr: https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/following-ch-article-how-to-learn-programming/#comment-56 [14:28] diana_alt: shrysr: the point re priorities is that you should at least have some rough groups precisely so you can say "this bit is there only if time allows"; moving them to higher priority if they spilled over from previous week makes sense, yes, but there is *also* the option of saying "this will have to wait until X is ready" or some such. [14:31] shrysr: I am not generally aware of what the bots on irc can do …or even how IRC works per se. but i wd Love to work on my own bot. From the way things look right now – a bot is better than no company if i end up aloooooneee. [14:34] shrysr: diana_alt: okay. I work that out and will update the post. [14:38] diana_alt: shrysr: initially making a irc bot was meant to be easy-beginner task but it turned out recently that it's not quite that, lol; onth since you say you are lisp-interested anyway, perhaps have first a look at trinque's bot [14:38] diana_alt: but note that you still need *first* to understand V [14:38] diana_alt: it's a basic step you just can't skip [14:38] shrysr: Yes. [14:42] diana_alt: here's the link with trinque's genesis of logbot http://trinque.org/2016/08/11/logbot-genesis/ and the keccak regrind from spyked http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/080-botworks-regrind.html [14:43] diana_alt: also, fwiw I think you might actually enjoy perhaps more making bots in eulora really since that's precisely where data collection and modelling and in general making sense of data is really needed [14:44] diana_alt: re lisp comment I meant that it's not a high priority; if it's fun and so it fits in "relaxing time" / not resulting in tasks spilling over than sure; but otherwise it *can* wait [14:47] shrysr: ok [14:47] diana_alt: will be back tomorrowx01 [14:48] shrysr: re bots in eulora yes – that occurred to me when i saw the task on foxybot…. It seemed ideal, and led back to V. I thought I could update the planned tasks from CH's article, and align it to Eulora as I progress. Who is CH btw ? [14:49] BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes writes at CH [14:49] shrysr: i dont know how you guys come up the cool nicks i see on irc. [14:50] BingoBoingo: Well, its his real name. When I came in as a nervous youth back in 2013 I just picked a nick with a silly meaningless sound and then it stuck. [14:53] shrysr: thanks BingoBoingo .. and ur nick is cool :D [14:54] BingoBoingo: tyvm [14:55] shrysr: as meaningless as it is.. lol. [14:55] shrysr: I actually spent some time chanting your nick when i saw it first. [14:57] BingoBoingo: lol [15:09] lobbes: shrysr: re: bots fwiw my [botwork in #eulora years ago][http://logs.minigame.biz/2017-02-13.log.html#t09:16:25] eventually led to me publishing a full-fledged auctionbot that gets frequent use in #trilema >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/04/auctionbot-vpatch-and-manifest/ [20:28] lobbes: I learned a lot in the process, as well [20:29] lobbes: but yeah, gotta understand V first [20:31] shrysr: thank you lobbes, I will go through that. Yes, I'm working on V. [23:21] #ossasepia Logs for 18 Aug 2019
diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000315 – it's an environmental issue too i.e. man-alone among scammers+idiots will not get anywhere (other than depressed or similar); hence my earlier note that it's unhealthy to invest your time (let alone yourself) in there more than you absolutely have to (if indeed you have to) [02:26] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 21:33:52 shrysr: in to, but bargains are made, and even with the cognizance of the fraud you mentioned among people who make decisions (there are fewer still who would admit to it) – nothing much is done, the projects lumber on like listless buffaloes. [02:26] diana_alt: shrysr: latest trilema piece seems to be some reading for you (but do remember you have some things to finish first by this Sunday's deadline!) : http://trilema.com/2019/no-platforms/ [02:27] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000303 – feel free to bash him one for those on sight, after all that's how learning happens; but yes, that's why it's here and not in #trilema after all. [02:29] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:42:46 trinque: heh, I'm here 5sec and already having an allergic response ! [02:29] diana_alt: shrysr: by "colophon" on your blog, you actually mean "About" and you are better served using the correct names for everything; the colophon is something else, too. [04:02] diana_alt: as for Stream I have no idea what it's supposed to be in the first place (feed? blog?); what's the difference between journal and blog anyway? [04:03] diana_alt: is the "virtual palace" the whole thing or a category or wtf? [04:04] diana_alt: in a word: your website is increasingly confusing to the point that I'll stop checking it; when you finally reach a layout that you can stick to, let me know and I'll give it another chance. [04:05] diana_alt: shrysr: to avoid wasting that last chance for your website, as a minimum, the blog part of it should have: http://trilema.com/2019/what-is-a-blog-complete-spec-inside/ ; whatever else happens in other parts of your website if you must have parts, have one url for a proper blog. [04:23] #ossasepia Logs for 17 Aug 2019
shrysr: Prelim notes so far on V https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/v/ [02:19] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-16#1000232 – your user is author there, not admin so probably can't approve comments; I'll have a look into it when I get back to a more settled place as atm I'm travelling for a bit [02:56] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 21:24:00 shrysr: my WP allows me to auto approve your comments, but i don't see that option in younghands… ? [02:56] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-16#1000227 – sounds good [02:56] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 20:44:13 shrysr: I got going with v.py and as mentioned in the task list – i will publish whatever has been done so far so that it can be reviewed more frequently. [02:56] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-16#1000230 – balance is a thing too [02:57] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 21:07:30 shrysr: of these actions should facilitate reaching the next salt mine. This was always the 'cause'. Quick results are nice, but I prefer holistic and in-depth development, and I believe I typically try to take time to do so, sometimes in too much excess. I think I should focus much more on v.py and TMSR related stuff (whatever we agree upon here) and pick and choose specific topics outside this scope, as a part [02:57] diana_alt: but yes, in-depth *and* not-ultra-specialised [02:59] diana_alt: shrysr: you know you *can* ask here re v and signatures too, right? [03:12] shrysr: Yes.. i realised I cd have asked about signatures here after posting on #gnupg … luckily i got a response. [10:59] shrysr: So is it like you have browser tabs open to the logs and your irc client open side by side when you respond? Usual 'settled workflow involves searching through the logs locally ? [13:47] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000243 -> yes; no – settled is re access over trusted networks and various auth. [14:41] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 13:47:39 shrysr: So is it like you have browser tabs open to the logs and your irc client open side by side when you respond? Usual 'settled workflow involves searching through the logs locally ? [14:41] asciilifeform: diana_alt: fella seems to have profound talent for reading text w/out ~actually~ reading. (for instance, escaped noticing that primary diff. b/w a vpatch and a heathen patch, isn't that it is pgp signed (heathens had pgp-signed patches 20y ago) but that it doesn't fuzzy-merge. [14:51] diana_alt: asciilifeform: I suspect it's partially bad habit (environment strongly pushed it, for all I can get otherwise he resisted it as much as he could on his own but that is always patchy at best) and partially reading too much noise (where there is nothing to actually ready so…) [14:56] diana_alt: read* not ready [14:56] asciilifeform: diana_alt: i like to presume that all patients are curable, until shown otherwise; but this 1 shows quite dire symptoms of 'read-only head' [14:57] asciilifeform: prognosis, imho, not so good. [14:57] diana_alt: asciilifeform: time will tell for sure. [14:57] asciilifeform: typically there is a stage, in cure, where patient 'opens third eye' and notices that entire collective output of 'software industry' from last 30y is rubbish, from win3.1 to 'docker' to etc. but not yet happened in this one, near as i can see. [14:58] diana_alt: tall order given that he is working for them essentially and still thinking they are his future/honest [14:59] diana_alt: fwiw he has however way more drive in the right direction than I saw in a *lot* of others [14:59] asciilifeform: diana_alt: possibly i confessed this, but asciilifeform worx with the direst depths of microshitiana for bread. [14:59] diana_alt: asciilifeform: yes, but you do *not* consider them either honest or actually doing something interesting in the first place [15:00] asciilifeform: approx as 'interesting' as the yellowcake is to miner in gulag. [15:01] diana_alt: asciilifeform: if anything, I'm actually curious how much/whether you worked with teenagers (not fixed age as such but rather as relatively new products of the current education system) [15:01] asciilifeform: diana_alt: i've trained folx, but the only successes arguably were folx who already came with '3rd eye opened' [15:02] asciilifeform: so i'm prolly the very last who should be consulted on pedagogic matters. [15:02] asciilifeform: in my personal exp., the best folx were people who were drummed out of high school, and worked in warehouses, drove trucks, programmed in spare time. [15:03] asciilifeform: … the worst ? folx with doctoral diplomas. [15:04] diana_alt: asciilifeform: it's a bit wider net, namely misfits; because yes, if they fit well, it's because they are made of the same shit in which they fit; and shrysr is a misfit as far as I can see; you may say he tried so hard to fit in that maybe he already did too much damage to himself but that I can't tell yet; [15:04] asciilifeform: ( these — often not only ~could~ not write even 'hello world', but would spew indignantly at even being asked ) [15:04] diana_alt: and moreover, it's a chance he has; [15:05] diana_alt: dunno; I …have a doctoral diploma [15:05] asciilifeform: rright , this is not a verdict on shrysr , but general observation. [15:05] asciilifeform: diana_alt: it, as you can see, isn't necessarily fatal. [15:05] diana_alt: aha [15:06] asciilifeform: there's been a sort of sea change tho, the folx getting these displomas now , tend to be products of 'asian' style schooling, where 'phf for washing glassware' [15:06] asciilifeform: *phd [15:06] asciilifeform: 'magistral disploma for spellchecking papers' [15:07] diana_alt: perhaps I even said it before but basically upon getting my phd I was rather pissed off because "wtf, is THIS supposed to be an actual phd now?"; pretty much told my supervisor as such "your paper/title/writing on the door is not going to actually make me a professor" [15:08] diana_alt: and yes, I expect it went even more downhill, there was no going uphill [15:08] asciilifeform: and they grow, what, 1000 doctorates to 1 professorial pos. nao [15:08] asciilifeform: here in usa i met quite a few folx who in fact leave their doctorate out of their cv. 'made me unemployable' [15:10] diana_alt: hence my observation above: the only real criteria I can see is whether they fit in with the shit or not; perhaps there is some gradation there or some threshold or even some "exposure" but there's no way to tell that I can see; [15:10] asciilifeform: to extend the disease model — i suspect the operative q is, how deeply into organism went the shit [15:11] diana_alt: alternatively, it's the other way around: whether they are made of shit or only covered in shit [15:12] diana_alt: you may say perhaps that I'm still gentle with the hose, I suppose [15:12] asciilifeform: 'made of' case is unlikely to end up on your operating table, i suspect [15:13] diana_alt: or at least last long, I would hope. [15:14] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000246 for one thing – those are prelim notes and there is a TODO marked there meaning I need to understand the difference. [15:28] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 14:51:34 asciilifeform: diana_alt: fella seems to have profound talent for reading text w/out ~actually~ reading. (for instance, escaped noticing that primary diff. b/w a vpatch and a heathen patch, isn't that it is pgp signed (heathens had pgp-signed patches 20y ago) but that it doesn't fuzzy-merge. [15:28] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000252 – i aint from the 'software' industry. in case you havent noticed. [15:29] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 14:58:29 asciilifeform: typically there is a stage, in cure, where patient 'opens third eye' and notices that entire collective output of 'software industry' from last 30y is rubbish, from win3.1 to 'docker' to etc. but not yet happened in this one, near as i can see. [15:29] asciilifeform: shrysr: noticed. i think this is why diana agreed to teach you, generally people who 'from soft. industry' unteachable. [15:30] asciilifeform: shrysr: iirc you were doing turbines at electric plants, if i'm not mistaken [15:31] shrysr: well – i have in fact gotten the 'feeling' since i;ve been here about the software industry, but i do not know enough to have an opinion. [15:31] shrysr: no i was using computational fluid dynamics to improve the desigs of centrifugal pumps. [15:31] asciilifeform: shrysr: your particular risk is that you might fall into thinking that the 'software industry' is something like the turbine industry (i.e. turbines — work, moneys are paid for'em; money is also paid for ms-win, hence it too 'in some sense works') [15:31] asciilifeform: aa [15:31] shrysr: is that not so ? ^ [15:32] asciilifeform: in reality tho, 'soft industry' is much more similar to pyramid scheme 'mmm' (or whatever its equiv. in your home country) than to turbines, airplanes, reactors [15:32] asciilifeform: e.g. microshit, if it were turbine, would be one that turns maybe on odd-numbered wednesdays, and the bulk of effort of the vendor goes into making elaborate excuses for why, and offering service where sends dudes to turn crank manually if you really need rotation to happen [15:34] asciilifeform: so, shrysr , indeed 'not so'. items like 'docker' are not honest industrial products, like turbine. instead they are instruments of fraud, where the illiterate buyer is led to happily pay to clean up mess that the software people ~themselves~ had made (and to clean up only half-way, requiring, naturally, the purchase of more pseudo-'product' of same type ) [15:37] asciilifeform: it is not difficult to come up with example of 'simply don't MAKE the mess.' e.g. therealbitcoin, is built so that ~links statically~. and thereby can be moved to any linux box , of given cpu arch, without any kind of dockerism. and will run. [15:38] asciilifeform: ditto e.g. 'M', ffa, etc. [15:39] asciilifeform: can take the executable and put on any x64 linux box, and will run. doesn't care what else is on it, what libs user had, etc [15:39] asciilifeform: dockerism, and 'containerization' in general, only seems appealing to folx who showed up after the frauds had already made static linking difficult (if you ask them, will say 'impossible', but it aint impossible — 100\% of my published pieces link statically) [15:40] asciilifeform: they made it difficult, so that can then sell 'solution'. [15:41] shrysr: I am following you. thats very interesting. evn in my still superficial exploratn of docker – i see that it can easily become a cascading layer of shit, and that dependency updates seem to have to trigger an image update – i.e it did not 'feel' right. [15:42] trinque: heh, I'm here 5sec and already having an allergic response ! [15:42] asciilifeform: see also mp's version of this explanation. [15:42] snsabot: Logged on 2016-08-18 18:32:56 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy terrain that used to b [15:42] asciilifeform: lol trinque [15:42] trinque: shrysr: feel aside, the only redeeming thing about "docker" is the atomicity, which can be had for cheaper. [15:43] shrysr: how did you mean links statically? [15:45] asciilifeform: shrysr: i.e. 1 executable, carrying all dependencies inside it [15:45] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000261 – most of what i've learnt abt code has been on the side… my job(s) did not really require them. started with writing scripts to automated stuff… and wanting to link together computers in first salt mine as a cluster for simulations. [15:52] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:03:30 asciilifeform: in my personal exp., the best folx were people who were drummed out of high school, and worked in warehouses, drove trucks, programmed in spare time. [15:52] BingoBoingo: shrysr: That's an honorable path many people who become good at computers take. It's also one that tends to fuel a lot of anger towards the software industry, because as you come to know what a useful computer should be doing for you, the tower of shit will be built to make the doing as uncomfortable as possible, should the doing be possible in the first place. [16:06] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000296 – When viewed in terms of a larger project (of many products) consisting of varied, interlinked specifications + with wheeling and dealing of all sorts – I've seen this in mech engg / oil and gas projects. The practices are not all necessarily evil, but a good many are pointless. In some cases – it is not something a discerning user happily gives [21:33] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:37:01 asciilifeform: so, shrysr , indeed 'not so'. items like 'docker' are not honest industrial products, like turbine. instead they are instruments of fraud, where the illiterate buyer is led to happily pay to clean up mess that the software people ~themselves~ had made (and to clean up only half-way, requiring, naturally, the purchase of more pseudo-'product' of same type ) [21:33] shrysr: in to, but bargains are made, and even with the cognizance of the fraud you mentioned among people who make decisions (there are fewer still who would admit to it) – nothing much is done, the projects lumber on like listless buffaloes. [21:33] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000300 The magnitude of the lie is surprising to me, presuming I am able to truly understand the magnitude's nature. [21:39] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:40:58 asciilifeform: dockerism, and 'containerization' in general, only seems appealing to folx who showed up after the frauds had already made static linking difficult (if you ask them, will say 'impossible', but it aint impossible — 100\% of my published pieces link statically) [21:39] asciilifeform: shrysr: dockerism is only the tip of the iceberg. absolutely same can be said for all 'abstraction layers' added by idiots. [21:44] snsabot: Logged on 2018-10-25 15:10:38 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over — on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs. [21:44] asciilifeform: shrysr: like every effective scam, this orchestra consists of very small number of conscious, cynical perpetrators, and a much larger circle of unthinking (and sometimes 'forced', 'salt mine gave orders… i only follow orders') chumps [21:47] asciilifeform: shrysr: the objective of the perpetrator is to take his rubbish – that on its own merits, no one in his right mind would want to touch with a barge pole — and make it seem 'necessary for all work', in the process getting himself relevance (and eventually money) [21:50] asciilifeform: shrysr: the algorithm is nearly always the same — the perp carefully breaks an open source program (typical example, the 'systemd' people) via social engineering 'here, let's all linux distros use this new, exciting thing instead of init'. then proceeds to offer 'fix' which consists of pile of garbage carefully designed to break compatibility of other programs with the old, sane system. then perp goes around 'fixing' these progs. [21:52] asciilifeform: in the end, result is that pile of shit is 'glued with broken glass' , like vandals glue posters to light poles. [21:52] asciilifeform: and any attempt to remove the vandalism, begins to look painful, the unthinking 'i only program for money, follow orders' types protest any such attempt. [21:53] asciilifeform: shrysr: the #t log contains countless examples of this story playing out : 'systemd', 'gcc 5', 'python 3', quite a few others. [21:54] shrysr: asciilifeform: are you yourself not forced to accept that rubbish frequently, like the spittoon? What is one to do now that this is known? build each piece of software / hardware yourself? It is not a path many can follow.. ? [21:54] asciilifeform: shrysr: believe or not, there are actually plans to make new iron. [21:55] asciilifeform: shrysr: in parallel with this, however, folx are digging through the wreckage of opensores ecosystem to find what may be salvageable. i recommend to get familiar with trinque's 'cuntoo' proj, read the discussions that went into it. [21:57] asciilifeform: re irons, 'M' is a demonstration that it is possible to actually describe , reproducibly and compactly, a system which will run linux/gcc/various progs. [22:00] asciilifeform: ( if you tried to do this with x86, the emulator would be considerably larger item than linux itself. whereas 'M' is ~13kB. ) [22:01] asciilifeform: shrysr: the spittoon, if you can picture it, in fact describes a ~less~ dire predicament than that of the 'modern' linux user. slim's spittoon 1) contains ~finite~ amt of spittle 2) ergo he is able to swallow it all and eventually barf out [22:04] asciilifeform: the 'dockerized' etc. software shitecosystem is a ~continuous~ spittoon. [22:04] asciilifeform: 1st step, as exemplified by 'cuntoo', is to make the spittoon finite. [22:04] asciilifeform: will bbl.x01 [22:11] #ossasepia Logs for 16 Aug 2019
diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000204 – reflecting is good and needed but take the time to link (and thus also check) conclusions back to the original starting point/thread as it were; [03:15] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 12:12:44 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000188 Okay. I see what you mean. In general – I was reflecting that I seem to talk it out in reasonable detail my head, perhaps even all day, but not enough makes it to the screen / IRC / notes to justify the thread, assuming there was any validity to the thread to begin with. Or, too much makes it on screen bringing straw men to life. I've been thinkin [03:15] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000209 – myeah; this is part of why I say that's it's unhealthy as an environment (and no, it's not just that particular company you are working for right now, it's unfortunately much more widespread than that) [03:18] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 12:13:51 shrysr: – This is hard to answer. I think I know, and I've had guidance in general from people I do trust. But there's a lot of 'variety' in experience and too much superficial show and tell (that is applauded to the roof WTF), and "data scientist" means a different things in different places, and few admit their approach to *not* be 'universal' or piled on a stack of unstable chairs. I also see deficiencies in [03:18] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000212 – well, compare and contrast with here + #trilema and perhaps reflect a bit on why is that and where's worth it to put more of your time and effort into. [03:22] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 12:13:57 shrysr: full time). I think that staying here is dangerous because I work completely alone and its IMHO among the worst culture/admin/attitude i've seen… shitty pay etc. Not that I was expecting paradise – but there almost no intellectual camaraderie. I have Tonnes of freedom by virtue of working alone, but not probably not the kind conducive to implementing 'cool shit'. As such the ERP thing is not terrible… [03:22] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000215 – exactly. [03:22] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 12:19:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000200 << shrysr , the v.py you've been studiously avoiding, is in fact that 'non-docker solution to reproducible environment' . [03:22] diana_alt: shrysr: http://younghands.club/2019/08/14/review-summaries-week-3-and-4/ – point 4 here is still missing, 2 days after "it will be updated tomorrow" [03:28] shrysr: Task list published http://younghands.club/2019/08/16/tasks-for-week-5 [20:31] shrysr: I got going with v.py and as mentioned in the task list – i will publish whatever has been done so far so that it can be reviewed more frequently. [20:44] shrysr: My reflection about where to put my time and effort into: When I started out with computational fluid dynamics – it was relatively straightforrward as to what I had to learn and career direction etc. With 'data science' it has been very hard to see a clear path. i.e I realised quite some time back that I needed a mentor and guidance specific to this and most of my meat WoT were from traditional backgrounds [21:07] shrysr: (non comp-sci). I found one in December 2018, and that course /mentor significantly boosted my progress in R, but it was not enough beyond a point, and there are deficiencies that I don't want to succumb to, as I've mentioned before. Even if this endeavour takes more time – I want to emerge with skills and knowledge at an in-depth level, and be ABLE to do excellent work with said assets…. and the merit [21:07] shrysr: of these actions should facilitate reaching the next salt mine. This was always the 'cause'. Quick results are nice, but I prefer holistic and in-depth development, and I believe I typically try to take time to do so, sometimes in too much excess. I think I should focus much more on v.py and TMSR related stuff (whatever we agree upon here) and pick and choose specific topics outside this scope, as a part [21:07] shrysr: of the weekly tasks. i.e actually submit to your guidance, and try to build up productivity systematically. [21:07] shrysr: my WP allows me to auto approve your comments, but i don't see that option in younghands… ? [21:24] #ossasepia Logs for 15 Aug 2019
shrysr: Re (1) : I did not 'run away' knees knocking in fear of v.py to docker, and don't understand the reference to making noise, unless you are calling it worthless, which I would disagree with. Yes, docker does some hard stuff, but so that I can do harder stuff, and work backwards when possible. In any case – it doesn't do something I've not struggled with?! BTW, I was reflecting that I could probably take [00:16] shrysr: apart a smallish motorbike (except the engine). Today, I was learning about make files, reproducible research and will have a nice container up soon, and intend to use to enhance the documentation of a package to begin with. Another (similar to UMAP) problem popped up today – different results on different machines with supposedly the same algorithm and data (in the course community). Took up docker [00:16] shrysr: because of several reasons, a bunch of which were in fact shared in the channel and should be mentioned in the posts as well: to produce reproducible results, and to construct my own docker toolbox to facilitate the above, as well as experimentation with different algorithms using a consistent and selected version of R and packages.. quickly evaluate / experiment to try resolve the problems mentioned [00:16] shrysr: above. Beyond this – i prefer to use docker to host shiny apps. Shiny is a R package to build web apps. Its a cool way to showcase projects, and also to build tools at work. The above is supposed to be parts of a plan, atleast. [00:16] shrysr: Re (4) : The website 'futzing' falls under the 'random emotion dominated jump' category, and could have been postponed as I had a working setup – but the end result is fortunately quite pleasing (to me) nevertheless and there were lateral benefits. However, the 'switch' to Docker was not random as it was already existing, as a part of a bigger plan. I believe I did say this? In fact, docker and v.py was [00:17] shrysr: kindda the plan. [00:17] shrysr: While I've come here to find meaning and like what you have to say and think I have the stomach for 'the red pill truth' and want to work; there also happen to be some immediate considerations for me, like – learning skills / concepts / developing a project portfolio which will get me to the next 'better salt mine', which I needed several months ago. I don't yet know what TMSR is, and I do not know where [00:17] shrysr: this is headed, and obviously anything worth doing will take effort and time, which I will do – because I want to follow you. Just so you know – I did no background search on you before rating you 10. I believe in you, as my teacher more out of instinct and curiosity at this point and a very superficial glance at your profile – but the fact is that I need to be able to confidently state that I've 'herped [00:17] shrysr: and derped' Docker and MANy more XYZ. Besides this – i am still 'herp derped' on my 'salt-mine slave' shit. All this being said – I think I need to adhere to (5) – X lines of code, take it slower and smaller. [00:17] shrysr: Re (4) : I understand what you mean about keeping deadlines and appreciate the value of *any* constructive advice or attention given to me – and have written that I should have communicated that I'm working on something else – most of which is written in the summary I see. However, considering my flimsy reply earlier to lobbes comment as well as the fact that nobody here knows me + the fact that I am still [00:19] shrysr: quite ignorant about what TMSR does / is and proabably rant 'I'm a lost headless chicken' a little too much: this is not the the first undertaking of my life, and in the past – while I did not 'change the world', and the solutions were nowhere close to being paragons of coding elegance – I have been able to single handedly drive and implement systems and solutions that had a significant impact, ahead of [00:19] shrysr: time, repeatedly, among other things. At the end of 5.5 years – I made +5X the money I started with, purely based on performance and impact, in 2 completely different organisations, after which I shifted here. I'm not stating the length of my dick in any sense (though it was overall a good achievement in several respects) – only trying to convey that I am not and have not been utterly devoid of [00:19] shrysr: professional standards nor am I ignorant of the impact of sticking to a deadline. Also in continuation to my Re (4) above – i do not yet see fit to abandon the things I was working on, before popping up in this channel… because I'm not in the situation wherein "today's 'salt mine' is quite acceptable and I can spend all my time searching more meaning in life". I still dislike sharing such details with [00:19] shrysr: people I do not know, especially in a public, perpetually logged forum, and I questioned the need to explain all this – Nevertheless – I just did, perhaps more out of a interest to convey that I am not a worthless escape artist / vagabound – and a little bit about wanting to share it with you. [00:19] shrysr: Re (3) : Okay for reading the article + summarising without any take. Re: causes and purposes – what exactly was the idea I utterly missed? I referenced a specific paragraph of the article talking about theoretically making decisions only based on cause and not allowing purpose to influence – and wrote about my 'struggle' in dealing with a 'doctrine' esque cause. I tried to say it is not practically [00:19] shrysr: possible to follow a cause without a cost that you may be unwilling to pay in the present, or that it is not possible to eliminate purpose from a decision by virtue of being human in a society today. There is no control over purpose and the future, agreed – but it creeps into our decisions and I questioned whether it need be viwed as an impediment. It *was* intended to be my take, and not a summary of the [00:19] shrysr: reference. If that was not well written – ok – I want to, and I will certainly improve, but I don't see how this message was entirely misplaced in the article, and neither can see it being so utterly devoid of connection to the reference article. Re: WoT – i need more exposure to the WOT and actually use it to understand better. [00:19] shrysr: Acknowledgement: the reasons are addressed above. As such, the website 'futzing', though categorised random was also done to make it easier to post notes and summarise weekly, which I conveyed, to me it is a measure, though you probably don't see the value in that (either?). In reality, I'd forgotten that I had already written a summary a few days before and actually could have published atleast one [00:20] shrysr: summary earlier. Atleast one more measure is that I've fixed locations/workflows for the notes I publish. Re (5): … all or nothing. Yes. I have strong tendencies to forget this… it is a problem. I was reflecting last night after the summary that it would be 'relieving' to reduce the magnitude and have shorter, consistent bursts. A target like X lines certainly lowers 'barriers' in my head. [00:20] shrysr: Deadline – Sunday. For all of it. .. [00:20] diana_alt: shrysr: nice outburst there :) [03:59] diana_alt: beats keeping silent by a *large* margin, you know? [03:59] diana_alt: that being said, it is way better to consistently keep in sync as it were rather than bursting when prodded more strongly [04:00] diana_alt: shrysr: and you do seem to fight some strawmen there (e.g. I said you ran away from v.py because for a few weeks now *all* that comes out re v.py is that you find it hard; but nothing concrete, no "here's what I tried and where I got stuck", no "what does this do because I think it does X but Y", no nothing); onth during this same time I heard lots of all sorts that were not even mentioned as "my [04:08] diana_alt: plan for this week" [04:09] diana_alt: shrysr: do me a favour and give me a link to the topics/issues you are going to spend this week on; basically the currently missing point 4 in http://younghands.club/2019/08/14/review-summaries-week-3-and-4/ [04:10] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000164 -> so put it explicitly and in some more detail in the plan, what! [04:13] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 00:17:47 shrysr: While I've come here to find meaning and like what you have to say and think I have the stomach for 'the red pill truth' and want to work; there also happen to be some immediate considerations for me, like – learning skills / concepts / developing a project portfolio which will get me to the next 'better salt mine', which I needed several months ago. I don't yet know what TMSR is, and I do not know where [04:13] diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000165 -> why exactly can't you confidently state? if you mean that I should approve /refrain from pointing out trouble *because* it lowers your confidence in stating/sends you into hiding, that's a. not helping you at all b. not going to happen. [04:16] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 00:17:49 shrysr: this is headed, and obviously anything worth doing will take effort and time, which I will do – because I want to follow you. Just so you know – I did no background search on you before rating you 10. I believe in you, as my teacher more out of instinct and curiosity at this point and a very superficial glance at your profile – but the fact is that I need to be able to confidently state that I've 'herped [04:16] diana_alt: shrysr: understand that all the above and previous feedback is strictly what the words say, don't make strawmen out of it; in particular: if I point out where you failed, it does NOT follow that you didn't do anything RIGHT! and yes, I am quite sure that you *CAN* do things right and even very well otherwise – that's precisely WHY I keep you to a good standard and simply point out that so far re [04:23] diana_alt: deadlines and feedback here you repeatedely failed (most probably out of too much enthusiasm if that makes you feel better about it, I am aware how easily that can happen but it is what it is.) [04:23] diana_alt: re Docker: I said it makes noise because it brings with it a *lot* of dependencies and assorted things that a. will weigh you down b. you have no control whatsoever over c. sooner or later (and usually sooner) *will* break from under you and as a result force you to "upgrade" all sorts + import yet another spittoon of neverending shit. This is neither specifically Docker btw not news as such. [04:29] diana_alt: the spittoon is a reference to "it's all one strand" illustrated with a great deal of matching-crudeness in http://www.loper-os.org/pub/the_spittoon.txt [04:30] diana_alt: if you say that you *have to* drink this particular spittoon because of current/planned salt mine, it's your decision and stand by it for what it is. I'm simply making sure that you are aware – as much as possible – of what you are getting yourself into there. In other words, it flows from causes, not purposes: I'm saying it *because* I've seen it all before and I know the problems with it and [04:34] diana_alt: *therefore* I can't keep quiet ("so you are confident in sharing" or whatever) and let you get sucked into it without even realising what's going on. [04:34] diana_alt: I'm not saying it towards a purpose e.g. "so that he drops it" ; sure, I wish you were at the point where you decided to not waste time on it but if you are not there, you are not there and that's all. [04:36] diana_alt: and the above being said, even dives in swamps can be useful learning (as long as you don't drown in there), sure; there is some potential trouble in that you may end up learning things to unlearn later too but such is life – things are neither ideal nor "as they should be" or something. [04:42] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000180 Yes. [12:11] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 04:00:33 diana_alt: that being said, it is way better to consistently keep in sync as it were rather than bursting when prodded more strongly [12:11] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000186 No I did not mean so and agree that would be counter-productive. [12:11] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 04:16:14 diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000165 -> why exactly can't you confidently state? if you mean that I should approve /refrain from pointing out trouble *because* it lowers your confidence in stating/sends you into hiding, that's a. not helping you at all b. not going to happen. [12:11] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000191 That was a disgustingly fleshed out, but weirdly instructive story which made me laugh (a bit) and cringe (a lot). I'm not sure if I'll eat anything for awhile, but I get what you meant. That being said, – I can't think of any non-docker solution to a reproducible environment other than creating a 'frozen version', preferably under version [12:11] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 04:30:22 diana_alt: the spittoon is a reference to "it's all one strand" illustrated with a great deal of matching-crudeness in http://www.loper-os.org/pub/the_spittoon.txt [12:11] shrysr: control. Can do that Immediately, lol. I used to do that with Emacs packages, but I'm not sure if it would work as intended with R across platforms, I think the paper below mentions somewhere it cant be. I thought the fundamental premise of using docker was to ensure/guarantee reproducibility of the computational env, in fact, just about to finish: https://peerj.com/preprints/3192/ , and atleast till pg [12:11] shrysr: 19 – nothing is said about potential pitfalls. [12:12] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000188 Okay. I see what you mean. In general – I was reflecting that I seem to talk it out in reasonable detail my head, perhaps even all day, but not enough makes it to the screen / IRC / notes to justify the thread, assuming there was any validity to the thread to begin with. Or, too much makes it on screen bringing straw men to life. I've been thinkin [12:12] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 04:23:37 diana_alt: shrysr: understand that all the above and previous feedback is strictly what the words say, don't make strawmen out of it; in particular: if I point out where you failed, it does NOT follow that you didn't do anything RIGHT! and yes, I am quite sure that you *CAN* do things right and even very well otherwise – that's precisely WHY I keep you to a good standard and simply point out that so far re [12:12] shrysr: I should schedule time-outs where I just take a deep breath, pause and unravel the threads to assess where I am w.r.t the starting point. [12:12] shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000194 [12:13] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 04:36:15 diana_alt: I'm not saying it towards a purpose e.g. "so that he drops it" ; sure, I wish you were at the point where you decided to not waste time on it but if you are not there, you are not there and that's all. [12:13] shrysr: – This is hard to answer. I think I know, and I've had guidance in general from people I do trust. But there's a lot of 'variety' in experience and too much superficial show and tell (that is applauded to the roof WTF), and "data scientist" means a different things in different places, and few admit their approach to *not* be 'universal' or piled on a stack of unstable chairs. I also see deficiencies in [12:13] shrysr: the way people handle data science (both experienced and newbies) – they just 'use' algorithms and talk 'Business value, ROI' etc, and *often* avoid going in-depth in a lot of areas that I think are no less critical – it is a fucking science. I want to know ATLEAST the intuition of the math (preferably all of it) before using the algo… it has slowed me down very much and has needed more 'effort' and [12:13] shrysr: energy to stay consistent / stable / motivated. I think that – if I drop all my efforts to learn and thus include these 'catchphrases' in my resume – i.e I take up v.py full time – it means staying in current salt mine for Atleast close to a year minimum before I 'find my feet' to the extent of landing another salt mine. It may well still take that long at my current rate of progress (if did not do v.py [12:13] shrysr: full time). I think that staying here is dangerous because I work completely alone and its IMHO among the worst culture/admin/attitude i've seen… shitty pay etc. Not that I was expecting paradise – but there almost no intellectual camaraderie. I have Tonnes of freedom by virtue of working alone, but not probably not the kind conducive to implementing 'cool shit'. As such the ERP thing is not terrible… [12:13] shrysr: but a lot of manipulation was done to reach that point, over months. [12:13] shrysr: bblx01 [12:14] asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000200 << shrysr , the v.py you've been studiously avoiding, is in fact that 'non-docker solution to reproducible environment' . [12:19] snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 12:11:56 shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-15#1000191 That was a disgustingly fleshed out, but weirdly instructive story which made me laugh (a bit) and cringe (a lot). I'm not sure if I'll eat anything for awhile, but I get what you meant. That being said, – I can't think of any non-docker solution to a reproducible environment other than creating a 'frozen version', preferably under version [12:19] #ossasepia Logs for 14 Aug 2019
shrysr: Okay- i just noticed there was an issue with my html export, and so the homepage was messed up. THis is now corrected and reposted on younghands. [12:59] diana_alt: shrysr: realise that you *did not say anything* about what is going on [15:36] diana_alt: so far you gave very little feedback on pretty much everything; and esp. when it's about deadlines, don't do this silent "I needed more time but I don't intend to …" [15:37] diana_alt: 1. SAY it *as soon* as you realise you might need more time or whatever 2. concrete reasons *why* that happened 3. concrete measures you are going to take *so it does not happen again* [15:38] diana_alt: shrysr: as long as you say something in chan I'll read it in the logs later anyway, no need to later ; but in any case, there is at least one other bot (iirc) that does later too and you can msg it directly if needed [15:42] diana_alt: (i.e. even if it's not in chan) [15:42] diana_alt: shrysr: re your summary: 1. wtf pouring time into Docker to start with? on one hand you run away from v.py because difficult on the other you jump on Docker because what? it "helps" you by making a lot more noise and apparently handling the "hard" stuff for you so "you don't have to"? [15:48] diana_alt: 2. inspiration is 80\% perspiration or how was it; following blindly your emotions may be giving you a thrill but it's more likely to get you falling down from a cliff; [15:49] diana_alt: 3. given 1 and 2 above, you should engage with this: http://thewhet.net/2013/09/your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/ [15:50] diana_alt: the trouble is that your previous attempts with causes and purposes and the wot were rather very poor on the engaging front i.e. you seem to have read the text but not really gotten the ideas, I don't even know exactly how is that possible [15:52] diana_alt: so I'd say try first to write a summary of what that post is saying; i.e. do NOT add your "take" on it or whatever; just try to retell in your own words precisely what it is saying [15:54] diana_alt: 4. you really sound like you overplan and you are using planning as a "virtuous excuse" i.e. a sort of "oh, I plan and therefore I'm not jumping about randomly" while you are exactly pretty much jumping about randomly;there is something to non-linear work but if you are *unable* to actually commit to some deadlines and hit them each and every time, it's basically hopeless to work with you. [15:56] diana_alt: 5. re v.py just start with the first x lines of it: write a post in which you take each line and explain what do you think it does. [15:57] diana_alt: understand that it does *not* have to be *all or nothing*; small steps is fine as long as you actually take them; and the longest travel is still made out of small steps or how did it go [15:57] diana_alt: shrysr: ack the above and let me know what deadlines you set yourself for each task above (at 1 you need to write down the reasons and the measures; at 3 you need to read and write the summary of what is being said there; at 5. you need to go through some lines of v.py and explain what they do [16:00] #ossasepia Logs for 13 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: what's COB? [04:57] diana_coman: and you know, it was meant to be there by end of this past Sunday [04:58] diana_coman: if Sunday doesn't work, then choose EXPLICITLY (say it!) a day that works and then STICK TO IT [04:58] diana_coman: this is basic accountability, lesson 0.000001 [04:59] lobbes: diana_coman: I think he may have meant "close of business" [09:59] lobbes: but yeah shrysr, take it from me in that you don't want to develop the habit of saying you'll deliver and then… not delivering. Even if no one 'notices' it will hinder your ability to truly grow [10:01] diana_coman: more to the point: every "silent" fail is a lie you tell yourself and as a result, the only thing growing is your capacity to fool yourself (which is anyway quite big for everyone to start with, not to mention a big drawback otherwise). [13:19] shrysr: I just really needed more time to write things up. Its not something I'd want to do as a habit. [22:56] shrysr: yes cob close of business. [22:56] shrysr: I have posted the progress summary http://younghands.club/2019/08/14/review-summaries-week-3-and-4 [22:56] shrysr: !tell diana_coman summary posted. [22:57] shrysr: lolz I thought that might work. [22:57] #ossasepia Logs for 12 Aug 2019
#ossasepia Logs for 11 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: done with the blog-futzing? ~16hours left for that. [03:18] diana_coman: !q help [10:21] snsabot: diana_coman: my valid commands are: seen, s, src, help, uptime [10:21] diana_coman: !q src [10:21] snsabot: diana_coman: my source code can be seen at: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3452 [10:21] diana_coman: !q uptime [10:25] snsabot: diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 1d 12h 33m [10:25] shrysr: diana_coman: almost….. n i know you are going to laugh. [10:35] diana_coman: a few hours left; and you also need to publish the week summary for this week & past one that you missed :D [11:02] diana_coman: tests botx01 [11:02] diana_coman: asciilifeform: actions seem to show in logger as text said rather than in any way different; is that intended? I don't quite grok what's the thing with *nick then? [11:03] diana_coman: also: should there be a space or not? i.e. *nick or * nick? (I'm awk-ing that log-before-the-bot file) [11:04] diana_coman: shrysr: hopefully it's plenty clear that past midnight GMT, further site-messing means I'll totally ignore your site and read *only* what you publish on younghands.club [11:05] asciilifeform: diana_coman: it's intended. i wrote bot so as to 'store all possible' bits, but for www display i cribbed phf's styling, which had no scheme for marking 'actions'. thought 'will devise one later, if anyone asks' [11:20] asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you have idea for how to mark'em in the log, with minimal mutilation, plox to offer vpatch, i'ma read & deploy [11:21] shrysr: diana_coman: its cleaaaar. the site as it is – is a reasonable compromise. It is not exactly what i set out to do…. but i think it still ticks the major boxes I wanted. Had to go back to WP and ditch hugo (only due to lack of skills+patience+time)… but i learnt a lot in the process and hopefully, will complete my notes so i know wtf i have been obssessed abt. [11:26] shrysr: i relied on help from other IRC channels… and its been so nice to have ppl respond and to connect with them, based on 'work', rather than the meaningless posting on linked in. It wd not have been possible without that. [11:30] diana_coman: asciilifeform: ah, I see; meanwhile I looked in the raw txt from the dump of btcbase and figured out re * too: it's meant to be a field by itself (and that makes it even easier), so cool. [11:30] diana_coman: shrysr: meaning is much nicer than no meaning, certainly. [11:31] diana_coman: and yes, linked in and dev.to and all the rest are mainly advertisement places – i.e. most there "talk" to fill the void, not because they have something to say; doh. [11:32] asciilifeform: diana_coman: see 'eat_dump.py' also, it correctly eats the format. [11:32] diana_coman: (for extra lulz, check out what they call "strategy" – it's ~= lemme post this in 5 places so it counts as 5*activity) [11:32] diana_coman: ofc 5*noise is just…a lot more noise, but who cares, right? [11:33] diana_coman: shrysr: while in general I'm all for "anything you do, it's STILL something learnt", the trouble is that you might end up learning stuff that you'll have to …unlearn later on. [11:34] shrysr: i see what you mean. THe indieweb concept actually helps with dealing with the noise, and increasing meaningful interaction across platforms. Especially after coming on to IRC – i'm becoming increasingly irritated with linked in. Unfortunately, it also seems the 'norm' that you should have a github and linked in account … from recruiters who typically do not understand most things anyway. [11:44] shrysr: in the whole process, I helped sort of discover a bug in the indieweb-wordpress plugin too ! [11:49] shrysr: diana_coman: well technically, i 're-posted' my blog post on dev.to and thats how I got to connect with you and get onto IRC… and then subsequent activities – all of which has led to a lot of …'changes'. The noise helped ..! [11:56] diana_coman: shrysr: the only unfortunate part is that you don't yet have (or perceive) any other option than to work for those "recruiters"; it's not that they don't understand, no; it's inevitable that they "require" precisely nonsense; but this is deeper and atm you still have to dig yourself out of *previous* holes you got yourself into, so it will wait. [11:57] diana_coman: shrysr: eh, you realise that it's because I wasted some time in that shithole, precisely trying to see if there was anyone lost in there [11:57] diana_coman: not as much "the noise helped", not at all [11:57] diana_coman: the noise almost drowned you. [11:58] shrysr: Its true. I was drowning…. a lot more than I let on. I hope at some point I find options/answers to free myself of those recruiters. [12:06] diana_coman: asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LkNwh/?raw=true -> old log for the logger; let me know if you'd rather I upload the file somewhere or something? [12:48] diana_coman: shrysr: that's the whole point in growing here :) ; but it takes time, so don't despair. [12:49] asciilifeform: diana_coman: loox good, lemme test on staging box and meanwhile deedbot it, i'ma feed it into dulap then [12:52] shrysr: what does plox mean ? [12:53] asciilifeform: diana_coman: eats w/out issue [12:54] asciilifeform: diana_coman: feel free to deedbot signed copy [12:54] diana_coman: shrysr: well, it's a version of please with a hint of ….depending on exact context; does this help tremendously? [12:56] diana_coman: may be playful, may be parodic, may be pointing out silliness, quite the range [12:57] shrysr: i've seen asciilifeform use it in the logs and could not understand it. [12:57] diana_coman: shrysr: base meaning is still please, that much is safe to say. [12:59] shrysr: thats interesting. [12:59] shrysr: plox = please + herp derp ? [13:00] diana_coman: shrysr: ahaha, can be in some cases, yes; can also be for instance please + wtf_is_this_not_done_already [13:00] diana_coman: human language, you know? viciously NOT independent of context [13:01] diana_coman: and molded by shared experience, even of the online sort [13:01] asciilifeform: diana_coman: #o logs imported. [15:15] asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme know if you notice anyffin missing. [15:16] #ossasepia Logs for 10 Aug 2019
#ossasepia Logs for 09 Aug 2019
diana_coman: lobbes: did you ever saw the questions/feedback of yesterday? [08:43] lobbes: diana_coman: where was this again? blog or in a castle? If you point me, I will read [08:56] lobbes: or perhaps already read! [08:56] diana_coman: here; not yet in the logs as the bot was not yet on [09:05] diana_coman: lemme fish it out [09:05] diana_coman: 11:36 diana_coman: lobbes, looking through your http://blog.lobbesblog.com/category/reporting/ posts there are 2 things that strike me: 1. some seem to just slip off without clarity as to what happened/what's your decision there (e.g. pizarro ads – did you hit a wall with it? did you postpone it (when/what)? did you abandon it? what exactly is it and from what specific causes?) 2. it doesn't seem all that clear/pointed anywhere: how do yo [09:06] lobbes: ty, this is exactly the feedback I seek. Yes, I think you have a point there. I have this habit of not being clear in both my causes, and my results it seems [09:20] diana_coman: lobbes: did the above get cut? or is it just the logger? [09:21] diana_coman: it read: clear/pointed anywhere: how do you choose your hopper items anyway? [09:21] lobbes: it was indeed cut [09:22] diana_coman: kk; at least no bug to report re logger, heh. [09:22] lobbes: re: how do I choose… I think I try and go with whatever seems the 'most pressing need for the republic that I can also do with the skills I have' [09:24] lobbes: but perhaps I need to refine my choosing methods here. problem with the pressing need qualifier is that needs are always changing by nature [09:24] diana_coman: aha; and that you keep the whole thing entirely out of yourself which is not that good for building yourself up [09:26] diana_coman: basically yes, answer the trumpet calls by all means but that shouldn't be *all* you do [09:27] lobbes: this is very true. I guess I have trouble knowing when I should ignore certain calls [09:28] lobbes: and when I should just stick to what I'm currently working on [09:28] diana_coman: the 1st point is to build yourself up as roundely as possible (and as a side effect this will inevitably *also* position you in a much better place to help/answer pressing needs) [09:29] diana_coman: I don't know if it's about ignoring really, I wouldn't go that far; but for one thing pressing needs can't really make for a full, sane path just in themselves, it's a bit like living for emergencies only [09:31] lobbes: this makes sense [09:31] diana_coman: and for the other thing offering is not just a "good intentions" thing – it's a commitment [09:31] diana_coman: for that matter it's rather easy to end up in hot soup *because of * good intentions (that were just that, wanted to but had poorly evaluated/bit more than could chew) [09:32] lobbes: yeah, I think the Inca state likes to breed this sort of "a good worker says yes to *everythin*" kind of toxic thinking [09:32] diana_coman: there is some space for "bit sligthly more so as to motivate and advance faster" but it has to be still a considered choice I'd say [09:33] lobbes: yeah, that's kind of it too. I figured that I need to grow, so I'd challenge myself. Buuut I don't think I thought things through enough in most cases [09:33] diana_coman: quite possibly yes, I can see that (a combination of "saying yes is easy" + "no real consequences if not delivering" + "works means sort of ") [09:34] diana_coman: growth yes, but it has to build on where you are, it can't just jump 10 levels up all of a sudden "because that's what's needed right now" [09:35] lobbes: speaking of work that has no real consquences of not delivering, I got to head to the mines. BUT thank you very much already for helping me think through this stuff. It is appreciated [09:35] lobbes: and yeah, realistic growth is the key, huh [09:35] lobbes: I will be reading these logs now that they exist! [09:36] diana_coman: in other words: the world (and tasks) is not flat and if you don't even see the mountain, it just means you are actually …underground, not yet at ground level even [09:36] diana_coman: kk [09:36] shrysr: diana_coman: i see some glimpses of the mountains from my underground lair [10:39] diana_coman: shrysr: so come out to the light! heh [10:44] shrysr: trying to! what did lobbes mean by heading to the mines ? [10:47] diana_coman: shrysr: he went to his place of employment aka "the mines" ; also known as "the slave galley" [10:48] diana_coman: if you are not familiar with it, salt mines (and rock quaries or similarly hard labour) was done with convicts mainly/only [10:49] diana_coman: you call your salt mines "the office" iirc [10:49] shrysr: ah. I did not know it was done mainly/only with convicts [10:50] diana_coman: european history; USA equivalent would be cotton-picking (aka slave labour, obv) [10:51] shrysr: :D yes i do call it the office/. [10:53] shrysr: diana_coman: did you get a pingback notification? [14:57] shrysr: I see you got my earlier pingback for http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/30/my-first-2-years-as-cto-for-minigame/ … did you get another just now ? [14:59] asciilifeform: shrysr: 'salt mine' is traditional parlance for where (usually) programmer does ultimately pointless, backbreaking sweat, so as to pay for food/flat. (an especially odious saltmine may be next level, 'gulag', see e.g. .) [15:02] diana_coman: shrysr: no notification of it at least; also no notification of your post – did you change your rss link for posts and/or comments? [15:16] shrysr: diana_coman: how about just now? its just a test, for another article [15:29] shrysr: the rss may have changed.. right now it is http://s.ragavan.co/index.xml i tried this on my feedreader and it works [15:30] shrysr: diana_coman: it should be working actually >> see my webmention linking on this post https://scripter.co/splitting-an-org-block-into-two/#webmentions [15:32] diana_coman: shrysr: eh, so what, you imagine I jump and change every time you futz it about ? [15:39] diana_coman: will bblx01 [15:39] shrysr: :( futz it about is so crude … i am making it awsome ! wtffffffff [15:42] diana_coman: fff is for futz-futz-futz, obv [17:13] diana_coman: but seriously, either you get the rss links to what they were or whatever, I'll see it when it happens. [17:13] #ossasepia Logs for 08 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: ugh, so auto-generator writes on your blog now? what's the point of having s.ragavan.co in there anyway if then it's 308g0wrjg33t398? [02:46] diana_coman: moreover, the blog is a *record* of history; you *may* adnotate and add to it and even mark parts as obsolete/striked through/whatever but you may *not* unhappen them wtf [02:47] diana_coman: lobbes, looking through your http://blog.lobbesblog.com/category/reporting/ posts there are 2 things that strike me: 1. some seem to just slip off without clarity as to what happened/what's your decision there (e.g. pizarro ads – did you hit a wall with it? did you postpone it (when/what)? did you abandon it? what exactly is it and from what specific causes?) 2. it doesn't seem all that clear/pointed anywhere: how do you choose your hopper items anyway? [06:36] shrysr: diana_coman: ok! [09:09] diana_coman: shrysr: what's your plan for the rest of this week as so far the *previous* Sunday weekly report is missing, your blog is …changing shape(??) and messing about again, there was still nothing further after the "got sucked into office work suddenly and didn't even surface to say it but won't do that again" [09:13] diana_coman: wtf is ghostwriter? [09:13] diana_coman: shrysr: did you just delete the latest posts on your blog?? [09:16] shrysr: diana_coman: no – nothing is deleted — i'm just trying out stuff on the server. The blog is changing shape yes. I want to implement https://mxb.dev/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ and stick to static sites. Using webmentions solves the issue of comments / trackbacks, and will enable me to post, as well as share notes in a much more convenient manner. No xmlrpc… just rsync and hugo and emacs and [10:41] shrysr: figuring out how to enable web mentions without any 3rd party services. The plan for this week is to set this up. I'm capturing my notes and also have some progress summaries. Essentially – I have my notes and files setup such that something like this https://braindump.jethro.dev/ is easily possible. I want to share all my notes easily. My goal this week is to finish setting up the above, and by the end of [10:41] shrysr: the week to publish updates on stuff done so far, and resume the pattern. [10:41] shrysr: by implementing the above – you will have a better picture of my activities, and the process will no longer suffer lag between 'writing' and 'publishing'. [10:46] shrysr: lol ghostwriter is the themes name…. all of that will change. dont worry. [10:47] shrysr: rather it is already changed. Just not pushed on the server yet. [10:48] diana_coman: shrysr: mk; but note that you're back to futzing with the blog so it better be indeed finished by this Sunday and really finished (i.e. you don't come back to it yet again in a few weeks time because x and y) [10:52] shrysr: yes. I completely agree. I just *need* to set this up… i've already figured out most of it, and have documented quite a bit as well. I intend to finish before sunday… actually quite excited about the impact. I have wanted this particular kind of publishing setup since atleast a year… its noot like i havent tried before – but I cdnt see the solution. maybe now my fluency in handling the vps by ssh is [11:05] shrysr: so much better now… or maybe my attitude has improved…. i dont know. I dismissed this webmention thingy as being too complex and went to wordpress..but turned out… it was not that complex, and actually kind of syncs with the things we talk about (from what i understand so far). [11:05] shrysr: besides this >> i've also made a lot of progress with learning Docker… I was sort of partly into a docker course when i joined ossasepia. though I know it is a dependency – there are some strong possibilities when there is fluency in teh basics… i can whip up a 'standard' test environment to quickly test out something related to data science, or even a nginx container to serve something and so on… i [11:13] shrysr: can even run a git server / pastebin etc via docker. I will be done with the course this week… but the point is i am fumbling a LOT less when i see a docker command. Unlike python – R does not really have a good 'package manager' or system. I have been concerned about the reproducibility of results. [11:13] shrysr: i.e no virtualenv in R. Docker can alleviate this to a decent extent. Besides – using a docker image, i was able to easily access all the base R and ML libraries on the server… the conventional method of installation is very cumbersome.. it actually failed the last time because I did not have enough swap / RAM. Had no issues with the dockerised approach, though I did have to increase SWAP for some [11:20] shrysr: libraries. [11:20] diana_coman: well, it's a vps and therefore smoke and mirrors/nothing yours anyway so there's nothing *more* to going all the way with the postmodernism at least; hopefully you don't intend to actually *rely* on the whole thing as something in anyway solid or even still working in a year's time (or whenever one of the chairs in that pile you rely on for "quick" gets knocked over/taken out) [12:17] diana_coman: but falling over is the best way of learning so go ahead, you still have a few days until this Sunday [12:18] shrysr: not all smoke and mirrors, other than not owning the VPS! just a few strong chairs… i will write about it and you will see!! [13:28] diana-coman: lolz, kk [15:27] diana-coman: !q help [15:27] snsabot: diana-coman: my valid commands are: seen, s, src, help, uptime [15:27] diana-coman: and here: thank you asciilifeform ! [15:28] asciilifeform: np diana_coman [15:29] diana-coman: !q uptime [15:29] snsabot: diana-coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 17m [15:29] diana-coman: !q s chairs [15:30] snsabot: 1 results for "chairs" in #ossasepia [15:30] diana-coman: asciilifeform: does it eat a txt log file (irssi-made)? [15:30] asciilifeform: ok username thing fixed, i think [15:36] asciilifeform: diana_coman: it eats phf's format. [15:37] asciilifeform: 1s, will illustrate: [15:37] asciilifeform: e.g.: 1926177;1564727032;mp_en_viaje;in the meantime, everyone's invited on trilema & other blogs. [15:37] asciilifeform: first column is absolute index (per chan) ; then unix epochal time ; then speaker ; then payload [15:38] asciilifeform: when 'action' (slash-me) speech, there is a * before name of speaker. [15:38] asciilifeform: that's the whole format. [15:38] asciilifeform: earlier i asked lobbes to bake a znc-format eater, i have a znc that only missed maybe half hr of log in entire year, could fill in e.g. #piz [15:39] asciilifeform: ( though i only joined yours recently, so do not have full back archive for it , with which to fill ) [15:39] asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma genesis the logger, in day or so , when i'm satisfied that it and the bot aint catastrophically braindamaged. [15:41] asciilifeform: then you can also stand up own logger, and not have to rely on mine or anyone else's [15:41] diana_coman: looking forward to it [15:45] diana_coman: by the sounds of it, at most I might need some awk to turn my local log in something the bot can eat so no big trouble there either [15:46] asciilifeform: diana_coman almost certainly [15:47] diana_coman: ftr and use of noobs, channel logs are at http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia [16:08] #ossasepia Logs for 07 Aug 2019
shrysr: i know we've discussed this before – but i wanted to ask – is a url like this also not acceptable? https://s.ragavan.co/2019/01/19/32266f09-c9b9-48ff-9c48-e2348eeda33d/ – so the date's there and the last component is a unique ID .. the reason is that it is auto-generated and even if I change the title, or move the piece around in my files – the id stays the same. [21:13] shrysr: so the links stay valid. especially internally. [21:26] #ossasepia Logs for 05 Aug 2019
lobbes: diana_coman: since my first deadline of Aug 4 has come, I want to give you an update on the logotron progress thus far: [00:14] lobbes: I believe I have the initial php bits figured out. However, I underestimated the complexity of the permissions system in postgres. Specifically, since the intent will be to have a logbot and log viewer on the same server, I want to be sure I really understand the permissions so that the web-facing bits do not interfere with the logline snarfing bits. I'll give you daily updates on my progress as I work [00:14] lobbes: through this understanding. [00:14] lobbes: In the meantime, do you care if I bring auctionbot into this channel? Since it sits on top of the logbot code, I figure it can start snarfing loglines while I research. (It will not list auctions in this channel unless I explicity tell it to, so no worries of spam) [00:14] lobbes: bbl:sleep [00:15] diana_coman: lobbes: you can bring auctionbot in here, sure [02:25] lobbes: excellent. ty! [07:15] lobbes: http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/03/silently-unhappened-on-theodinprojectcom/ << btw comment in modqueue [07:16] diana_coman: lobbes: good you said something – I had to fish it out of the spam (not sure why it went there directly, hm) [07:59] diana_coman: shrysr: are you still alive ? [08:07] shrysr: diana_coman: yes, i am. sorry. I've had to catch up on office work and have not made much progress with v.py, and my daily writing has been lagging as well. [11:39] diana_coman: shrysr: it can happen but the important thing is: SAY it; as quickly as you notice it [11:40] shrysr: yes.. i apologise. I was going to update you and got distracted. [11:40] diana_coman: far better to say it upfront than to have me either shout after you as above or otherwise… assume whatever I might end up assuming instead, you know? [11:41] shrysr: yes [11:41] diana_coman: ha! what was the distracting thing? [11:41] diana_coman: anyways, glad to hear you're still alive :D [11:41] diana_coman: re v.py, since it seems to be a hard task, maybe write down what you did /tried so far and where/what got you stuck; you might even get some help then [11:42] shrysr: yes, i will need help :D .. but I do think i can push a little further, and want to. [11:45] shrysr: the distracting thing!! lol what is not distracting :D as you've said i try to optimise when I shdnt, and if i remember right – i thought I should get something done and then report, and then thought i should send out an interim update … and then went on to something else to finish first. God knows what at that time. [11:48] diana_coman: shrysr: sounds like a mess; report is fixed: set aside a day and *stick to it*; i.e. *every week* on Sunday you write down on younghands.club the summary of what you did during the week and how it went [11:52] diana_coman: it has nothing to do with that first or the other second [11:52] diana_coman: the above is the minimum and *fixed* [11:52] diana_coman: if you want in addition to set yourself a daily blog post too on whatever you worked on during that day, fine [11:53] diana_coman: but again, it's a fixed thing, non-negotiable once set; whatever it is you did or did not do, goes in there [11:54] shrysr: :) okay. Understood. [11:54] diana_coman: the point of those posts is to *record what happened* , not to paint you in some light or another [11:54] shrysr: okay. [11:55] shrysr: i will do it. [11:56] diana_coman: cool then [11:56] shrysr: diana_coman: where are you in UK? hehe I did my masters in Leeds uni, but have only visited birmingham. Not even London. [12:00] diana_coman: shrysr: I'm in Reading [12:08] diana_coman: well, near Reading [12:08] diana_coman: why so travel-adverse shrysr ? [12:08] diana_coman: shrysr: where are you from more precisely? [12:09] shrysr: Well in the past – mostly because of the money. I guess nowadays its also abt the effort involved in planning stuff out. hey at that time, i had no money left over after the drugs and cigs. [12:11] shrysr: I'm from the south of india. You could say the city Chennai. However, I was born in Mumbai and we've been there for a longgg time. [12:12] shrysr: so essentially… i live in Mumbai, India. [12:12] diana_coman: shrysr: how often do you go back to India nowadays? (re no money, students tend to not have money but yeah, usually through their own doing, lolz; basically drugs and cigs were more interesting than london which tbh sounds like a rather sensible assessment for that age) [12:16] diana_coman: not to mention that I can't honestly point out something you "missed out" on by not going to London; onth missing out on trying unhealthy stuff while young enough to make it through kind of sucks because trying it later is not really a viable option [12:17] shrysr: its been 2 years since I've been to India… i.e I havent been back since I shifted to canada. My sister lives in New Jersey. My parents visit her now and then.. I met all of them there last year, and they are visiting her again around december. [12:21] diana_coman: oh, visiting the poorer shithole to the south, I see [12:23] shrysr: well she has a kid… its more entertaining i presume for them. I'm quite certain that they w [12:24] diana_coman: your line got cut at w [12:24] shrysr: they would not want to be where i am now. :)) [12:25] diana_coman: lol; that's at the end of the day their problem though, not yours [12:26] shrysr: well for one thing they wdnt fit into my tinyyyyy motel room.. Hey i'd like them to hang out with me, so its kindda my problem too. [12:28] diana_coman: part of being an adult is that you don't care anymore about your parents' opinions and ideas as – hopefully – you outgrew them essentially [12:28] diana_coman: well, so go back to India from time to time, you get to hang out with any and all friends still there too, much better anyway [12:28] shrysr: yes. thats the plan. hmm.. i agree there has been a growing disconnect, but i still consult with them on most major decisions… there's nobody else i can trust completely. [12:31] diana_coman: I get that you "can trust" as in they want the best for you; the trouble however is whether they still can evaluate correctly that "best" given that you are outside what they actually know, it's pretty much this [12:33] diana_coman: and if they are fully honest, the truth is that "best for you" is inevitably being able to take and stand by your major decisions on your own [12:35] diana_coman: even if you have to fall down a couple of times and hurt yourself until you get there – it's still learning [12:35] shrysr: they can't … and you are right. thats why i said there is a growing disconnect… as such even before i came out here – they always insisted that the decision should be mine. [12:35] diana_coman: the other way of looking at it is that it's increasingly a burden on them – having to share responsibility for what it's not their lot; anyway, good on them and on you for stating that much [12:37] shrysr: i.e they acknowledge that i know the situation better than them, and I shd move in the direction needed. in those cases my sister has been a lot more helpful since shez been out here a lot longer. [12:39] diana_coman: lol; gathering information is one thing; making decisions a different step though [12:40] shrysr: :D yes [12:41] diana_coman: well, you know, let me know if I should instead talk to your sister :D [12:41] shrysr: lol she has her hands full with my 3 year old nephew who is ridiculously intelligent and cunning.. [12:57] diana_coman: the point there is whether you are on her hands too or on your own [13:00] #ossasepia Logs for 03 Aug 2019
#ossasepia Logs for 02 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: validator.w3.org for instance reports 2 a tags that are messed up [02:57] diana_coman: shrysr: ugh, now I don't even know if my comment made it to your blog or not; ftr here it is: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VOALe/?raw=true [05:35] ave1: hi [15:00] shrysr: hi ave1 [16:12] shrysr: diana_coman: I got the comment , and responded – on causes and purpose ? [16:13] shrysr: diana_coman: do you get a notification of response to your comment ? [16:15] shrysr: AHHH okay i see what you mean. yes. the time stamps get included for each message which is not nice though [17:16] shrysr: sorry wrong channel. lol. [17:16] #ossasepia Logs for 01 Aug 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: no, lol; nobody can a generic thing like that really; ask better questions, you know? [03:06] shrysr: diana_coman: lol.. i had to ask. [09:06] diana_coman: shrysr: ask but learn to ask *better questions*; that thing there as it stands is on the level of 5 year old "questions" [09:14] diana_coman: shrysr: basic logic: what does it take to invalidate a strong statement like that ("all")? [09:15] shrysr: diana_coman: the strong statement being 'I can hack into anybody's computer' ? [09:19] shrysr: well in front you… i do feel like a 5 year old. [09:20] diana_coman: young again! :)) [09:22] diana_coman: shrysr: and yes, the strong statement is "can hack *any* computer" [09:24] shrysr: not being able to hack a single computer you come across? [09:25] diana_coman: "strong" in there refers to a claim covering a full set [09:25] diana_coman: not even come across; but simply a single negative example is *enough* to invalidate that [09:25] diana_coman: conversely, to actually answer yes, one would need a *proof* that "for any X a computer, can hack it" [09:26] diana_coman: before you can even attempt such a thing, you'd need to define computer and hack at the very least and even then I don't see how you'd go about any sort of actual proof [09:28] shrysr: okay! :D I get you. Can you hack into my computer ? [09:29] shrysr: and hack as in – gain control of it. [09:29] diana_coman: lolz, no idea nor interest really; but why this interest in "hacking"? [09:29] diana_coman: it's not one of those kids "hacking clubs" or anything [09:29] diana_coman: note also that if I do have control of that computer, it's by definition *my* computer, not yours [09:30] diana_coman: so you are effectively asking me if your computer is really *your* computer [09:30] shrysr: :)) [09:30] diana_coman: well, I don't know; is it? [09:30] diana_coman: you'd better make sure it is yours if you work with it, I'd say. [09:31] shrysr: its not my computer either… office :P [09:31] diana_coman: well then, it's theirs so at least not your problem as it were but anyways. [09:31] diana_coman: shrysr: why this sudden interest re hacking though? [09:33] shrysr: well – hacking was always fascinating. For fun…really. Though I did not take a single concrete step towards learning how I cd do so, except signing up for some ethical hacking courses on udemy (and never doing them). I asked the question when I suddenly recalled that I met a guy 10+ years ago…. he logged into my facebook account, in front of me, on a laptop I'd never touched. He asked me to enter my [09:36] shrysr: ID, turned around… typed in stuff and then there it was. [09:36] diana_coman: shrysr: the boring part about hacking though is that it's ultimately this sort of "find the magic incantation that works…for now"; and then repeat; it is true that the whole mess that is "computing" nowadays is full of holes and so lots of incantations to find but …it still sounds like a terrible waste of time to me unless you really are actually decided to burn everything down [09:43] diana_coman: (nothing wrong with that, quite on the contrary but it's the only case when it's worth it) [09:44] diana_coman: shrysr: at any rate, so did you find out at least how to log in to any facebook account? [09:44] shrysr: no. he wd not tell me. [09:50] diana_coman: shrysr: magic incantation, neh; ofc won't tell [09:51] diana_coman: basically "power" through obscurantism; for as long as you make sure you live among idiots, you may be "powerful"; sounds like a terribly poor deal to make this being the mage of the idiot tribe but what do I know [09:52] shrysr: yea… and he wasnt the type I wanted to be friends with despite a GREAT deal of interest at that time. [09:52] shrysr: Yes… thats totally right. While this was impressive…. it became pretty clear after a bit that he was not truthful (most of the time) and very manipulative. [09:56] asciilifeform: shrysr: the magical 'thief who can steal Anything!' only lives in cartoons. [09:58] shrysr: And moviesss…. swordfish… Mr Robot ? [10:10] shrysr: well atleast today – i know I can use i3wm to make my desktop look incomprehensible and exotic to the 'simple' people :D [10:17] diana_coman: shrysr: I'm not much for movies really, esp relatively new ones [10:18] diana_coman: that's not a tall order, is it; lol [10:19] shrysr: diana_coman: I like to be able to forward through the boring bits myself. lol. [11:25] shrysr: diana_coman: WoT revisited https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/the-wot-revisited/ [11:25] diana_coman: shrysr: you got feedback in #trilema from mp already [11:26] shrysr: huh [11:26] shrysr: oh [11:26] shrysr: ok [11:26] diana_coman: shrysr: doesn't your irc client notify in any way when your name is said? it should, set it up properly. [11:26] shrysr: it does… I didnt notice really. [11:27] shrysr: diana_coman: i think i should move on from the WoT for now and revisit later? I will add a comment to the post referencing mp's feedback. [12:20] shrysr: diana_coman: is that ok? [12:20] diana_coman: shrysr: yes. [12:21] shrysr: diana_coman: ok. Do you have any more feedback ? [12:22] diana_coman: it is markedly better anyway even if inevitably more vague – after all you *are* discussing it in general; [12:24] diana_coman: shrysr: there are 2 things you should be aware of: [12:24] diana_coman: 1. you switched from comparison X vs Y to "what is X" *silently* [12:24] diana_coman: the silent part especially is problematic, don't change things silently! [12:25] diana_coman: 2. while you switched to "what is X", this switch requires a different approach too and it's not clear you are aware of it [12:26] diana_coman: specifically here if you focus on describing something, you would need to identify and mention at least any underlying principles (hence MP's observation that indeed, if you are to discuss it as a concept, you have to use the theory that is relevant [12:27] diana_coman: shrysr: note also that feedback will come whenever/if someone has time /is so inclined; asking "do you have anymore" is at best impertinent [12:29] diana_coman: while I like you and I am willing to help you, it does *not* follow that it's now my obligation or something. [12:31] diana_coman: shrysr: if you are under some impression that you are doing me some great favours, better spill it out right now and be done with it, so we don't waste time. [12:37] shrysr: diana_coman: i did not mean or think that you have any obligation. WHere does favor come into the picture ? If anything – you are doing me a favor by talking to me and I'm doing myself a favor by trying to follow what you say. [12:40] diana_coman: shrysr: good then. [12:43] diana_coman: shrysr: do you see how the "do you have any more feedback" does *not* align with what you just stated though? [12:46] shrysr: diana_coman: asking you for feedback was not done with impertinence, and i have interacted with enough ppl to understand that ppl have lives and need not respond to me immediately. I was eager to know your thoughts, and perhaps it was unnecessary to ask…beyond the eagernes – i asked with the idea of capturing what you had to say in my notes, along with Mp's comments, as feedstock. In my experience, with [12:49] shrysr: the ppl I've interacted – you don't get feedback unless you ask… repeatedly. [12:49] asciilifeform: shrysr: smart folx are generally 'interrupt-driven' rather than 'polling-driven', if they have comments, will give comments, dun have to ask 'but are there more comments' [12:51] diana_coman: shrysr: was your experience here so far: 1. "had to ask to get feedback"? 2. really all that similar to "the ppl I've interacted" with before? [12:52] shrysr: diana_coman: no. And thats why i said 'perhaps it was not necessary to ask'… I shd have said not necessary to ask *here*. [12:55] diana_coman: myeah. [12:56] shrysr: asciilifeform: 'smart folx' may also be complex ppl with inflated egos who will keep their mouth shut unless asked with great fanfare and reverence for their opinion. I don't mean to imply it is applicable here. [13:13] diana_coman: shrysr: by the sounds of it you really need to evaluate /clarify your context a bit better. [13:16] diana_coman: and try not to carry "habits" without even examining them, especially across boundaries: some things are so fundamentally different that you'll come to grief here precisely for what was "needed" there [13:19] shrysr: diana_coman: noted. [15:23] shrysr: asciilifeform: re: the selection thingy how would I go about validating my theme? I have now tried 3 browsers, and 3 themes. the selection thingy works on all 3 themes on archive.is [15:27] shrysr: asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ckbh9 for example. another theme. selection works there. [15:33] shrysr: asciilifeform: I removed the modifications to functions.php and tried archive.is again >> the selection still works. tried a brand new theme and >> archive.is — selection still works. so the modified argument for th RewriteRule is parsed and works as expected, and the problem is with functions.php .. ?~!? [15:52] #ossasepia Logs for 19 Jul 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: the trouble with static blog is that there is no good option for comments [02:23] shrysr: none of the options here are good enough? https://gohugo.io/content-management/comments/ [02:25] diana_coman: and more generally for direct interaction with your readers – this is meant to be a big part of being online in the first place (otherwise you know, get a notebook and jot down); (/me goes to look at your link) [02:25] diana_coman: oh boy, disqus, lol [02:26] shrysr: talkyard ? [02:27] diana_coman: shrysr: is there any of those in the list that you can fully run locally AND without importing (as dependency and/or requirement) yet another ball of code of various sizes? [02:28] shrysr: I'd have to check, but it does appear so… for exmaple remark42 is fully dockerised. I've never activated this for my website .. [02:30] shrysr: this as in – any form of comments. [02:30] diana_coman: anyway, and quite as always: pick the stuff you think best satisfies those main criteria: no external dependency, runs on a linux with gcc 4.9 (or earlier) and without systemd and other shit, does comments and pingbacks (those ARE important), and you can get to actually know its code in one month at most. [02:31] diana_coman: it may use local db [02:32] diana_coman: docker IS a dependency though, you realise [02:32] diana_coman: and once/if you find such a thing, I'll come over to your website and poke it in the eye for free :)) [02:33] diana_coman: has to go now but will be back in a few hours [02:33] shrysr: :D [02:42] diana_coman: shrysr: add to the list: running on python 2.7 or earlier [04:27] shrysr: diana_coman: okay noted. Are pingbacks really necessary? Comments, threads and basic stuff is possible. I don;t see any talk of pingbacks. [04:52] diana_coman: shrysr: yes they are; for one thing you *want* to know when someone else is talking about related stuff; and you *want* to be able to pat on the shoulder someone who is talking about related stuff; and you as reader *want* to know who and how interacted with this text enough to write about it, too [04:57] diana_coman: perhaps think of it this way: they work waaay better than the "references list" or "bibliography" or "notes" combined in traditional books [05:00] diana_coman: not to mention sparking further discussion and clarification when/where needed [05:01] diana_coman: in case it's not clear: I'm not at all saying that wordpress is great or even highly desirable; I'd prefer it much smaller and trimmed and cleaned and all that – BUT atm, there IS one version of it that has been at least adjusted for all sorts of useful functionality AND used by people I *trust* and further available for enthusiastic trimming (in other words: it's captured already) [05:03] diana_coman: don't go hunting for wild new things to capture and make yours – there's plenty already captured, just waiting for someone with a free hand and willing to give them better shape [05:04] diana_coman: (for that matter I dislike php anyway but that's for another day) [05:04] diana_coman: BingoBoingo: make me a shared hosting account with wp installed please; bill it for one year and let me know if there's something else you need from me [05:09] diana_coman: ugh, wrong channel [05:09] diana_coman: shrysr: let's make this the proper way – I'll get you an account on the learning blog anyway just so you have a point to start from without/before needing to already find and choose all sorts of things from provider to blog software [05:12] shrysr: diana_coman: okay. Yeah that makes sense. Pingbacks appear complex for a static site, though still doable. [05:14] shrysr: thank you for the opportunity. [05:15] diana_coman: everything is doable; the trouble is whether the specific price required is really worth the result, that's all [05:15] diana_coman: shrysr: note that you'll *have to* write daily even if it's just a bullet-point list with "I did X; I did Y ; " or even "today I didn't do anything" [05:17] diana_coman: but anyway, as soon as that's ready, I'll ping you with something more specific to do too [05:17] diana_coman: first things first though: you *need* a rsa key ! [05:18] diana_coman: shrysr: otherwise I can't send *you* anything since there is no you around here [05:19] shrysr: WRiting everyday should not be a problem. I've actually been actively recording a journal everyday… some nice packages in emacs allow this seamlessly. [05:19] diana_coman: very good but..why under the blanket as it were? put it out there, what [05:19] diana_coman: nobody can help you if they can't see what you're doing, can they? [05:19] diana_coman: shrysr: btw re blogs and actually useful stuff, did you notice the selection thing? e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/14/a-working-cuntoo-install-on-amd-fx-8350-with-script/#selection-63.0-69.43 ? [05:21] diana_coman: being able to link specifically the precise bit you mean is quite powerful [05:22] shrysr: okay – i've setup a key pair and published the public key on keybase and mit. I'm just reviewing the whole thing [05:26] diana_coman: shrysr: http://deedbot.org/help.html -> go through that to register your key with deedbot [05:28] diana_coman: you can simply go /msg deedbot !!register yoururlatpbvulpes.com [05:29] diana_coman: will be back later [05:43] shrysr: diana_coman: deedbot 211A199BC99152DEFA326D792E4554DE8D51E8D9 registered as shrysr. I'm guessing this is the key [05:52] shrysr: Well, its been more of a free flow journal, containing explorations and personal notes and stuff.. I try to filter out the supposedly more meaningful stuff to share. [05:56] shrysr: Actually, i did not notice the selection thing and totally agree that it is powerful. [05:58] shrysr: the keybase proof is at https://gist.github.com/shrysr/c884b54249b3cf9af6e5a428c2f07e3c [05:59] diana_coman: shrysr: you can always query deedbot with !!key nickname it knows you as http://wot.deedbot.org/211A199BC99152DEFA326D792E4554DE8D51E8D9.asc so that seems ok, well done. [07:53] diana_coman: re stuff to share – explorations and personal notes are fine to share too; I know this trap of "this is not meaningful/ready/good enough to share" but it's exactly that – a trap, nothing more [07:54] diana_coman: the earlier you avoid it, the better for you [07:54] shrysr: i see what you mean about sharing, as well as linking to specific content. It's actually a lot easier to just share without much filtering. https://sachachua.com/blog/ is a great example, and sacha was an important part of the inspiration to go deeper into Emacs. [13:58] shrysr: diana_coman: In fact, the idea of a pingback, and a site enabling active conversation makes a lot of sense. It hit me when you said it… I never really bothered to think of providing a means for intelligent and convenient conversation, whereas perhaps that's the whole point of sharing online. It should not be just about expressing yourself.. that seems like a narrow way of thinking. [14:01] diana_coman: shrysr: quite; it might very well be that you had more experience of "unfiltered commenters aka mostly spam" so yes, it's hard to see it otherwise [14:03] diana_coman: but that's one of the big advantages of working among people here: they are already filtered by being here (and that's quite a filter) so you'll get actual conversations not noise [14:04] shrysr: diana_coman: Yea! I realised that while reading your articles and the conversations. And yes, one my first efforts was setting up a website on weebly, and most of the comments were spam. [14:05] diana_coman: shrysr: note also that the point is not really "expressing yourself" – the point is improving yourself; writing IS thinking [14:05] diana_coman: hence my earlier: put online whatever you write; because the topic does NOT matter – it's HOW you write about it that matters; so write from my point of view about goldfish even if you want or about nonsens – but make sure you write structured and meaningful about it (yes, it IS possible, even about nonsense) [14:07] diana_coman: or at least strive to – and then look back and identify problems and next time do it better; that's what learning is. [14:07] shrysr: diana_coman: Ok. I will work on it. Re: hosting – I wasn't sure how pizarro is different from 'mainstream' offerings like linode, in terms of what I neeed? It also appeared a lot more expensive. [14:11] diana_coman: well, for one thing it's run by people I'm vouching for : they won't either run with your data ever, nor give your details to anyone ever (as in really ever, no gdpr/whatever bullshit) and they are always on hand and helpful with any help you need; not to mention you actually get what the offer says, not some "yours" that is however not exactly yours and "ooops, there was some problem/cloud/bla" [14:13] diana_coman: re price, I suppose it reflects this but as I said earlier, you get a place on the shared blog anyway so I suppose you can leave this for later if it's not yet clear [14:14] diana_coman: ftr: if you have your own domain and site I don't mind if you write there but I won't let you give github or whatever other shit any content [14:16] diana_coman: will bbl [14:16] diana_coman: shrysr: re vps you do I hope realise that it's not really "your vps" in any real sense of the term, right? [14:40] shrysr: Yes. [14:40] diana_coman: cool. [14:40] shrysr: I had toyed with the idea of a raspberri pi server in my little room. thats soo very cool in my book… but like all things, I guess I just got started somewhere that felt 'doable' at the time. [14:42] diana_coman: heh, pizarro have the rockchips, quite cute even [14:43] diana_coman: fwiw my website is currently running on one of those [14:43] shrysr: Yeaa! I was meaning to ask you… is it also based off wordpress ? [14:44] diana_coman: yes, it is this "mp-wp" – essentially a customised, frozen version (most customizations were done by Mircea Popescu, not by me); it was genesised and it could do with some themes for it + any amount of reducing the code base for sure: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mp-wp&search= [14:46] diana_coman: the theme on my website is mine aka really one I did for scratch (out of being pissed off with everything else) [14:46] diana_coman: on my* website [14:46] shrysr: that is soo cool. :) [14:48] diana_coman: from* there, ofc, not for scratch, lol [14:49] diana_coman: you'll get to see this mp-wp anyway because that's what will be deployed on the shared blog. [14:51] shrysr: I hollered out to a guy I know who managed to setup webmentions on his static site. https://mastodon.technology/@kaushalmodi/102469531780821230 , but that is deployed via netlify. [14:51] diana_coman: that's usually "done" nowadays, a bit like "cooking" is taken to mean "oh, I did do the mixing" (or maybe turned the oven on) [14:54] diana_coman: will bbl [14:59] shrysr: :)) thats how i cook [14:59] diana_coman: lol, do you get at least the food from home/someone cooking? or is it the sad shop-fare? [17:02] shrysr: i'm single and have to take care of myself here. I cook veryyy simple, and hardly eat out. The problem is that no matter how i 'innovate' (or not) – there's not much taste :D [18:49] shrysr: mostly rice / bread / boiled veges. / eggs / no meat whatsoever. whatever I can do with an instant pot and a microwave, and with least effort :D [18:51] shrysr: I live in a small town called Sundre, in Alberta. ABout a 50 minute drive from Calgary…. which I've never visited. Sundre's small enough that you can walk end to end in 20-30 minutes i guess. [19:00] shrysr: Probably the lowest computer literacy + awareness that I've seen (or thought possible in a 'developed' country) [19:03] #ossasepia Logs for 18 Jul 2019
shrysr: I just got started with using tmux! Love it.. also, figured out that running weechat in tmux on my vps might be a very convenient way to stay connected to IRC [00:13] diana_coman: shrysr: in what way do you think that sourcehut is an answer (and to what exactly)? [02:38] diana_coman: I suppose I'll end up writing a post on tools, huh [02:40] diana_coman: anyway for starters, here's the republican main code repository http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=ffa&search= and an example of code view: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch1_genesis.kv [02:42] diana_coman: as basic and most-useful tool, I certainly use screen; and an editor tweaked to be aware of ada+c/cpp but that's nowadays more often than not plain nano [02:43] diana_coman: for irc it's irssi [02:43] diana_coman: (again, poked and tweaked some) [02:43] diana_coman: shrysr: make yourself a gpg key and register it with deedbot, for starters; you'll need it to get an eulora account anyway but more to the point: you need it so you can actually gain any reputation [02:45] shrysr: I was thinking of sourcehut being a better answer to control over our content when compared to github. Sort of similar to what I thought about erpnext, as in, start off with a decent tool that can be extended and self-hosted, if desired. [10:34] shrysr: [10:34] shrysr: The developer has a post with some points of differentiation: https://drewdevault.com/2018/11/15/sr.ht-general-availability.html. I haven't used it much, but it felt like a tool that could be potentially more developer friendly, and focused on code (and related workflows), rather than being cluttered with stats of commits and stars. [10:34] shrysr: [10:34] shrysr: [10:34] shrysr: whoa I thought empty lines would be stripped or something. [10:35] shrysr: Nano! I prefer nano to vi, but never considered the possibility of customising it. That's interesting and intuitively feels (more) efficient, like the Unix philosophy of tools that do one thing well. You make me wonder (more than usual) whether I should open my mind to doing things outside Emacs. [10:36] shrysr: I do have a GPG key to encrypt my personal files, and access my VPS. But I've been wanting to know the principles better. I will look into this today. [10:37] diana_coman: shrysr: V is the version control system around here and it's not "just another versioning system" – I'm calling it that because that's closest to some concept you have [14:50] diana_coman: so regarding the version control, there is V and if you want to build some specific tooling/infrastructure for it, sure, why not [14:50] diana_coman: just you know, be aware that your time (and anyone else's) is a *limited* resource and there is always the risk of the enthusiast – running around from one shiny thing to another and not getting anywhere (or getting burnt out before having anything to show for all the work) [14:51] diana_coman: it's more common that you'd think and it's not a matter of "I'm brighter than that" – it's quite more often an affliction of the brightest not of the less bright [14:52] diana_coman: re gpg (as re ~everything around here), there's again more to it than "just a key": [14:53] diana_coman: I'd say my talk at Reading uni might be a good introduction for you too, did you find it already? and from there follow the links and read up on the WoT especially [14:53] diana_coman: the point is: there is a LOT to take in; and I can help you so you don't get overwhelmed, but you need to make a plan, publish it, do, review; repeat [14:54] diana_coman: shrysr: listen, what's the main thing holding you back re making your own blog on your own domain? having the keys to the thing and being able (for real) to destroy it IS "owning" by definition; no amount of hosting it on someone else's platform is going to do anything [14:55] diana_coman: or I suppose if you really say that you are not there yet i.e. you are not yet sure enough to be independent, then fine, since you are effectively my apprentice around here, might as well set you up with an account on what will be apprentices' blog and that's that [14:58] diana_coman: re vi – it's more my dislike of "modes"; I can work with it (when on a machine with nothing else) but I'd much rather not. [15:29] diana_coman: this being said, tools are quite a personal matter – so use whatever fits *your* hands best as it were [15:30] shrysr: I'm definitely *not* brighter than that. I do jump around topics a lot. It feels like the more I learn, the more I 'don't know', and the scope is always expanding with not much getting done. [16:16] shrysr: I'm definitely *not* brighter than that! I do jump around topics a lot. It feels like the more I learn, the more I 'don't know', and the scope is always expanding. [16:16] shrysr: Especially of late, and I've been worried about having nothing to show for my efforts. [16:16] shrysr: I would deeply appreciate your help and guidance. That's why I'm here, and I'm willing to do what it takes to achieve excellence. [16:18] shrysr: Re: my own domain – I did have a domain and wordpress based site some years ago and let it languish because it was cumbersome and unpleasant to manage with phpmydmin or whatever. Maybe I did not know enough. [16:20] shrysr: Discovered static sites (Jekyll) ~2 years ago, which exactly what I wanted. I setup on github to begin with, and then about a year back – shifted to Hugo (noticeably faster build time) and the site you saw. [16:21] shrysr: I actually have a domain name ready, and signed up for a VPS with Linode some months ago. The primary plan was to host my website, along with a server for shiny apps, and also having my email synced on the server. [16:22] shrysr: re: gpg > I will go through your talk and the links and revert. Some holes were filled via google today and I get the idea much better than I did yesterday. [16:30] shrysr: I will work on gettng my domain up and porting my website to it. [16:47] shrysr: re: republican repo and V – how should I learn more? [16:58] asciilifeform: shrysr: can start with the orig. draft of 'v' — http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory/ . it's a ~3 page proggy. [17:42] asciilifeform: ( literally. and not even particularly 'massaged' . ) [17:42] shrysr: asciilifeform: proggy ? [17:43] asciilifeform: python script, in this case. [17:43] shrysr: :D Okay I will start with that. [17:44] asciilifeform: various people added knobs later, but the basic functionality remains more or less same as in the prototype. [17:44] shrysr: trilema.com seems to load a different page everytime i refresh ! :D [17:44] asciilifeform: shrysr: he has it set to give random old article on each load of / . [17:45] asciilifeform: shrysr: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000161.html << early example of vtronics. [17:47] shrysr: asciilifeform: thank you. I'm on it. [17:49] #ossasepia Logs for 17 Jul 2019
diana_coman: shrysr: are you coming in or going out ? this join/part is only annoying [06:48] diana_coman: oh well, apparently not that alive really [11:30] diana_coman: shrysr: are you there? [11:48] shrysr: yes [11:48] shrysr: Hi ! [11:48] diana_coman: oh hi, so you're alive after all, lol [11:49] diana_coman: what brings you here? [11:49] shrysr: I want to do work that matters :) [11:50] diana_coman: heh, hold onto that idea! what do you know how to do? [11:50] shrysr: Sorry, I have been trying to setup emac and erc on my VPS and it always feels new everytime [11:50] diana_coman: well, vps is a sort of "too cheap to afford all the problems it brings" but anyway [11:51] shrysr: Not much! I do not know Ada. I've been building skills in R… I am familiar with python. I did know C / C++ a LONG time ago. [11:52] diana_coman: R is not bad to know, actually; still quite my go-to thing for messing about with data [11:53] shrysr: Yes, my current goal is to b [11:53] shrysr: 'break into' data science. [11:53] diana_coman: oh, what would "data science" be exactly, you think? [11:54] shrysr: I think it is about gaining insights from data, understanding it's nature and then plugging all of that into algorithms to extend that understanding further. [11:56] shrysr: I'm fascinated by the idea that a machine can learn. [11:58] diana_coman: well, insights won't ever come "just from data" but anyway, have you seen then for instance http://trilema.com/2016/the-pop-of-the-day-and-other-items-of-virtual-economy/ ? [12:00] diana_coman: there's plenty more in fact – in this sense, a working Eulora is effectively the data scientist's wet dream [12:00] asciilifeform: imho most 'machine learns' reduce to variant of http://www.loper-os.org/bad-at-entropy/manmach.html [12:00] asciilifeform: massively overhyped concept. [12:01] diana_coman: asciilifeform: like all fashions, it has to be hyped, what, don't begrudge it, its false feathers and fancy garb [12:02] diana_coman: shrysr: that fascination is most likely to be linked to what you add on "learn" than to what the machine actually does [12:03] asciilifeform: diana_coman: problem typically comes for people who go and try jump from cliff with the false feather wings. [12:03] shrysr: asciilifeform: I understand that. However, it still seems to have a lot more potential than mechanical engineering :D [12:04] diana_coman: asciilifeform: how's a problem if they jump? good instruction for onlookers, I'd say, let them JUMP! [12:04] diana_coman: shrysr: what are you working on/doing otherwise atm? [12:07] asciilifeform: diana_coman: the onlookers never seem to learn from the jumpers. why — do not know. but it describes why software is what it is. [12:09] diana_coman: asciilifeform: neah, if they don't learn it's either because "not gory enough" or because "can't learn" (in which case fine, they are next to jump) [12:10] diana_coman: there is a lot of "not gory enough" around precisely because supported otherwise (usually on the strength of old stuff that still works basically) [12:10] diana_coman: ftr I suffered from the same fascination as shrysr , back when I was 18-22; the uni courses on "AI" were a lot of cold water (this?? is THIS what you call machine *learning*???) [12:11] diana_coman: and before shrysr thinks this was sometime in mesosoic, it wasn't. [12:12] shrysr: diana_coman:I agree. Hype is certainly very high. I've been at this for more than a year… trying to build a foundation of concepts. It has not been easy. However, my identification of this field – [12:14] diana_coman: shrysr: you got cut at "of this field – " [12:19] shrysr: on a fundamental basis is that i want to use a computer to analyse things.. build tools, workflows and systems to enable that. Over the years, i've found that my initial interest in compuational physics (fluid flow) was too niche and there were very few companies doing this. It was and is still too expensive for most. [12:20] shrysr: Especially after 'discovering' emacs, i've become more and more interested in code. [12:21] shrysr: irrespective of the hype, data science seemed that perfect combination of using code to derive insights and building systems. [12:23] shrysr: Otherwise >> I am currently implementing an ERP (enterprise resource planning) system for the company i work for. It will replace a completely manual system. [12:24] diana_coman: oh boy the ERPs [12:24] diana_coman: what are you building it in/on top of? [12:24] diana_coman: shrysr: eulora is from at least one perspective basically a laboratory for hands-on "data science" learning/perfecting/anything; and yes, you totally get to design and make your own tools to collect any data you think you need to figure out stuff (even *what* you should figure out is up to you!) [12:26] diana_coman: so how about this: get yourself an account in eulora, have a look around and choose something you want to model – from prices to quality or even quantity of crafting outputs [12:27] shrysr: I am using erpnext. It is actually very cool because i think it is the cheapest system out there, and one that trumps most mainstream offerings by the the fact that it is open source. [12:27] diana_coman: I guess I'll even offer a bounty for working model [12:27] diana_coman: if it comes to that (as so far it seems rather elusive :)) ) [12:28] diana_coman: shrysr: on one hand I'm sure it's not at all hard to trump "most mainstream offerings" on anything really [12:28] shrysr: :D anything ?? [12:29] shrysr: I'm checking out eulora right now [12:29] diana_coman: but for my curiosity: how many lines of code does this erpnext have and in what language? would you say you actually know exactly what each bit does and how and within what constraints/limitations? [12:29] diana_coman: shrysr: discuss it, you know? lolz [12:30] diana_coman: mainstream offerings are quite shitty; it quite comes with "mainstream" [12:31] shrysr: No. I haven't even explored the source code of erpnext, which is based on python. The focus has been on getting something working first. As such – it is maintained by a company, and we;ve signed on for support. [12:33] diana_coman: otherwise put you are slaving on a galley that is further enslaved by a bigger galley but the advantage of the whole thing is that …it's open source! [12:35] diana_coman: shrysr: for your reading list on "open source": http://ossasepia.com/2018/08/04/a-collection-of-pearls-as-well-as-ever-sadder-epitaphs/ [12:37] shrysr: .. and cheap, easily 10x. I figured that if I reach a point where the software does not do what I want, i can atleast try to dig into the code and develop what I need. [12:38] diana_coman: shrysr: the trouble is that the moment you dig into it (and you'll get to that moment sooner rather than later, if you are doing anything serious as in actually useful there at all), you'll find that the code in question is such a collection of stacked chairs that developing what you need is not at all such a straightforward thing [12:41] diana_coman: eulora's client code is open source; and yes, pretty much was chosen precisely because "at least you can go in and do what you need"; it's been….a while, let's say and I'm still torching the swamp to then finally be able to do what I need [12:42] shrysr: i am inclined to agree. Besides the fact, that I have only started pushing myself to study the source code, the consultant I work with – often dissuades me immediately, when i talk of any 'deeper' customisation. [12:45] shrysr: I meant study source code in general.. not just for erpnext. [12:46] diana_coman: shrysr: a bit like with any other written word (literature would be the cannonical example), NOT all that is written is worth reading, that's the thing [12:47] diana_coman: and time is the only truly finite resource so don't waste it on reading shitty code unless you go in to burn it too at the very least [12:49] diana_coman: shrysr: re your consultant, no surprise really, think of it: he gets money out of you NOT knowing the stuff + him knowing just what he knows, not more; the "slaving on a galley" goes much deeper than a mere figure of speech [12:52] shrysr: I swear: on some days – my heart breaks with a fear that I will never understand and write elegant code. There is so much to learn… its infinitely worse when I forget what I've learned. [12:52] diana_coman: shrysr: that's the fear of any thinking man I'd say – that he'll never get to know what there is to know; on the bright side though, you have the advantage that there isn't all that much new elegant code written [12:54] diana_coman: anyways, eulora specifically *encourages* players to make/change their clients precisely as they want it – make bots to your heart content or anything else really [12:55] diana_coman: because yes, it's not a game for slaves on a galley but for thinking people [12:55] diana_coman: sure, the legacy code is a swamp but the advantage you have is that the earlier you get in, the better off you are over everybody that comes even later; [12:56] diana_coman: shrysr: re learning and if it's any consolation, I can add that in those past 3 years working on eulora I learnt way more (and deeper) than I did during my 3 years of PhD. [12:57] shrysr: ::D that is a consolation. 3 years sounds pretty quickkk. WHen i finished my masters – I just wanted to get out and work. I turned down a PhD offer in combustion …. once I started working, i realised I WANTED to do something original…I never did get another offer. I had deep regrets about that, but in the last few years – as I've 'discovered' github and the universe of 'code'… I've found peace in the fact that there is plenty to [13:04] shrysr: learn and do…that can help others, including original contributions. [13:04] diana_coman: hopefully you noticed also that github thrives precisely on fleecing the naive-but-well-intended who provide it with content for free and get pretty much jack-shit in return [13:07] diana_coman: don't fall for that; for one thing the best way you can help is anyway first of all by helping yourself too [13:08] diana_coman: and for the other thing, there's no reason to give your content to github; make yourself your own blog like a sane person and put it there; github is more than welcome to link to *you* if it wants to [13:08] diana_coman: (for that matter, same goes for dev.to , even in spades) [13:09] diana_coman: and yes, rather than run the risk of misleading youngsters to think it's fine and good to provide dev.to with their content, I'll refrain from it and I'll do the needed dig in their source rather [13:09] diana_coman: shrysr: Shreyas, eh? are you of Lithuanian descent by any chance? [13:10] shrysr: no!Well atleast as far as I know.. I am from India. [13:11] shrysr: Migrated to Canada in 2017 [13:11] diana_coman: interesting; all Shreyas I knew so far are Lithuanians, ha; then again, Lithuanian has supposedly *something* in common with Sanscrit so… [13:13] shrysr: I have had plans to move my website to my VPS… but I guess I just settled for first succeeding in making content on a regular basis. [13:13] diana_coman: well, for all your web hosting needs, I warmly recommend Pizzaro: pizarroisp.net [13:14] shrysr: yes, my name has it's roots in sanskrit. Embarassingly enough, it's supposed to mean 'uniquely the best' [13:14] diana_coman: shrysr: so you have your work cut out for you there, by your very name :D [13:15] shrysr: my mom loses no opportunity to remind me [13:15] shrysr: :)) [13:15] diana_coman: likes the sound of shrysr's mum very much [13:15] diana_coman: shrysr: what's your website so far anyway? [13:16] shrysr: https://shrysr.github.io [13:16] diana_coman: honestly, why give github all that content; what if tomorrow they go down (like sourceforge did, remember?) [13:18] diana_coman: anyways, I'll be back later. [13:19] shrysr: Okay! Hey – wanted to say – it is so cool to connect with you. [13:21] diana_coman: hey, glad to hear that shrysr ! [15:09] diana_coman: and possibly best set up znc or something and leave it on – nobody expects you to answer immediately, but at least you can see stuff later [15:09] shrysr: thanks for the tip on znc. Currently, I have emacs connected to erc on my vps and have logging enabled, so I should be able to login via ssh anywhere. [15:48] shrysr: Internet at my office sucks, so I was planning to look into mosh, based on advice in the emacs channel. [15:49] shrysr: Have to look into znc too. [15:49] shrysr: diana_coman:I was curious about the tools you use now? you mentioned dropping Emacs. [15:58] shrysr: diana_coman: re: content on github, I stumbled across https://sourcehut.org a while back, and never got fully set up. It does seem atleast a partial answer though? [16:01] « Newer Posts#ossasepia Logs for 15 Jul 2019
moopet: Aloha [11:46] diana_coman: hello moopet [11:46] diana_coman: what brings you here? [11:46] moopet: read a comment on dev.to about TMSR and V and hasn't a clue what they are [11:47] moopet: and since I failed to find anything on the internets I thought I'd come straight to you [11:47] diana_coman: heh, good call really [11:47] diana_coman: V is a versioning system like hm, no other really ; you can see it in action here for instance : [11:47] diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/patches [11:48] diana_coman: e.g http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=eucrypt&search= is the V tree for my project EuCrypt [11:48] moopet: so are signers people who have approved a commit? [11:50] moopet: and what is TMSR? [11:50] diana_coman: moopet: not "approved" heh; signers are people who are willing to stake their reputation on the contents of that code essentially [11:50] diana_coman: there is no "approval" – only responsibility [11:51] diana_coman: the point is that code is valuable for you only to the extent that you trust it [11:51] diana_coman: and the direct trust comes from "I read and understood it and I'm fine to use it" [11:51] moopet: how is someone responsible for something if they haven't given their approval? [11:52] diana_coman: the less direct trust may come also from "X whom I know to be honest and capable has signed this patch " [11:52] moopet: I'm not sure I'd understand unless I actually gave it a go, I guess [11:52] diana_coman: moopet: re approval I guess it hinges on your notion of "approval" [11:52] diana_coman: the point is: anyone can add a vpatch to an existing v-tree [11:53] diana_coman: in this sense there is no need for "approval" from anybody else [11:53] diana_coman: however, just adding a vpatch won't do much for those who don't know you and therefore can't trust you/your code [11:53] asciilifeform: moopet, diana_coman : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system is imho to this day the best guide to 'v' [11:54] diana_coman: thanks asciilifeform , I was digging for that! [11:54] asciilifeform: np [11:54] diana_coman: moopet: the link provided by asciilifeform is the canonical introduction to using V as it were [11:54] moopet: will give it a read later [11:55] moopet: thanks [11:55] diana_coman: at any rate, if you want to learn and practice, you can do way worse than implementing your own V [11:55] asciilifeform: moopet: it's quite possibly world's simplest versionatron. to the point that virtually all of the current users, wrote own implementation (or use old one tailored to own taste) [11:56] diana_coman: TMSR is The Most Serene Republic; you can read the log of its public forum for instance at http://btcbase.org/log/ [11:56] diana_coman: moopet: re TMSR you can have a look on trilema.com as well e.g. http://trilema.com/2015/the-definitive-sovereign/ [11:59] moopet: this is quite hard going [12:06] moopet: I have to look up every other word [12:06] diana_coman: moopet: is that bad or good in your books? [12:06] moopet: it's very… subgenious [12:06] diana_coman: (and…which of the above links, lol) [12:07] moopet: all of them [12:07] moopet: I decided to read them all at once because big brain [12:07] diana_coman: moopet: what's "subgenious"? [12:07] diana_coman: heh, take it easy, it's not a sprint; more of a very deep rabbit hole [12:07] moopet: 'it's me mis-spelling subgenius [12:08] diana_coman: but feel free to come up for air and ask in here at any time [12:08] moopet: will pobably be back! [12:08] moopet: but it's nearly time to go home, so bye. Thanks for talking! [12:08] diana_coman: hang around as you like [12:08] diana_coman: np, see you later [12:08] diana_coman: moopet aka Ben Sinclair, it would seem [12:24] Work on what matters, so you matter too.