Ossasepia

July 17, 2018

Discriminatory Code Sharing

Filed under: TMSR — DianaComan @ 2:10 p.m.

While the world at large is making itself busy with the current fashion of discrimination hunting and public pillorying of any offenders it can get its public hands on, TMSR is peacefully and earnestly discussing in the forum the introduction of a new code release paradigm that is quite as discriminatory as it can be and as a result to rather significant benefit to all. The initial proposal as stated by Mircea Popescu in #trilema has the following parts (split and formatted from the logs in a way that I find easier to read):

the following code release paradigm :
client (code) author
a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ;

b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.

advantages:
1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ;

2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in the new c-s protocol) ;

3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.

disadvantage:
this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).

The discussion can be found in the logs but it can be a bit difficult to follow as it spills over into next day and into other topics on the way. The initial focus was on the issue of "keep a secret" and then on that of "controlling binaries". While both those aspects are worth discussing and are certainly covered to some extent in the log throughout yesterday, they are actually NOT at all central to the proposal as I came to understand it at length. And the discussion perhaps focused on those at first mainly because the speakers - both I and Stanislav - have more practice with the technical perspective and so we read the proposal first through that lens. However, as I kept prodding the issue with questions, various bits and pieces fell into place for me and the whole thing started making more sense. Specifically, this is my current understanding of this proposal:

Discriminatory Code Sharing

The proposal is simply a clear and pointy (i.e. with actual practical power and means to use this power) discrimination between:

a. the general "public" who has access to binaries and nothing else.

b. qualified individuals (l1) who have access to sources.

Note the mass noun in a. and the distinct persons in b.

Note also that the a/b distinction above is a political issue first and foremost. It *does not matter* nor it could possibly matter if some non-l1 somewhere gets at some point his hands on some code or the other. So it sees it. So what? For as long as the "seeing" happens outside the walls of TMSR or otherwise put outside the structure of authority, there is no meaning to it. In practical terms, they can of course see the code, come within the walls and contribute as a result and then what's the problem or the loss? Or they can herp and derp outside and be ignored by TMSR just as they were before they found that code in the woods, so again what's the problem or the loss?

Essentially, code is to be shared but not with anyone able to push some keys. Code is to be shared with and even offered to those who can do something meaningful with it - and only to those. What they decide to do with it, if anything, is of course their own call entirely.

There are significant advantages to this approach:

1. It makes explicit and it gives more meaning to an existing and unalterable difference between "users of software": some can and will read source code, others will just execute whatever they download. Those who consider themselves in the first category but possibly unjustly lumped at the moment with the second, have the option of doing some work and getting into l1.

2. It offers quite a few things to those who actually write useful code:

  • a way of getting help from those most able to give it;
  • as much protection as there currently is anywhere to be found against the significant and eternal pressures of the mindless horde1 as well as against the very real monkeys who are always looking to pick up the fruit of someone else's labour when it's ready;
  • a clearer and arguably easier avenue to making a name for themselves and in the process finding their own place, be it in l1, l2, lx or outside the walls entirely.

3. It adds more meaning (power and responsibility, what else) to the l1 status.

4. It puts more pressure on the need for reproducible builds since the practical and technical aspects of most of the above relies to some extent on those and the actual exercise of the new powers will inevitably run into the issue of non-reproducible builds (as well as any other relevant technical issues that are perhaps yet to be revealed as people stumble upon them).

The only disadvantage stated from the beginning was the fact that the approach is unlikely to scale very well as the size of l1 increases - there needs to be a rather close agreement within l1 at the very least on the core aspect here: code is not secret but sharing it is a responsibility and choosing the recipients is a matter not to be taken lightly.

I can perhaps see a potentially different issue with submitted code that keeps growing in volume. However, I'd expect that it is a bit too early to worry about that and the solution is more likely to be naturally found - if nobody actually reads it, there is no effect. For the code's author it's just as if the code wasn't even submitted in the first place if not even worse since he might easily land in the soup for being an idiot who can't read the log and doesn't understand at all how lines of code are weighed in the first place.

Based on my above understanding of this proposal, I must say that I'm all for it. From all I see, it's a rather significant improvement for everyone even remotely touched by it and at relatively little real cost to anyone involved.

It might be of course that I misunderstood the proposal in parts or entirely in which case I very much want to hear in the comments below where I'm mistaken.


  1. Also known as the horde of idiots, mountain of idiots, sewer rats and so on. 

March 28, 2016

When the Messenger Shoots Back

Filed under: TMSR — admin @ 11:56 p.m.

I could title this: the post I did not want to write. There has been a lot written already on the BitBet issue and the #b-a logs have frothed over it more than enough. Still, seeing how after all this time nobody in the midst of it all seems to either see what I see or otherwise care enough to state it, I have no choice but to write it anyway, because the alternative is that this view is never even put out there at all, for better or for worse. And to make it clear: I do not write this for whatever may come out of it (there's nothing positive I can really see coming either). I write it because this perspective is somehow entirely absent from any public discussion that I can see and therefore I can no longer keep quiet on it.

Let me state from the start that I have no stake in BitBet at all. For full disclosure: I had a few shares bought in the very beginning and I sold those quite some time ago. I bought them because I saw (and still do) huge potential in the underlying idea of BitBet. I sold them when I realised that the infrastructure that BitBet needs to thrive is simply not there1.

The perspective I have to write here as best I can will not go into technical details at all. First, such technical details have been discussed to death in the #b-a logs by people more knowledgeable on this matter than I am. Second, I truly do not consider that I know enough of these technical matters to discuss them at this stage. On such matters, I specifically defer to people such as asciilifeform and mod6. Third, I don't think that they are truly relevant to what I have to say, seeing how the discussion really focused in the end on Mircea Popescu's call on the matter rather than on any of the technical issues involved.

A very short history of the issue here: the betting site owned and run by Matic Kocevar (Kakobrekla) and Mircea Popescu entered into receivership as a result of a irreconcilable difference between the two owners. This difference became apparent over the handling of an incident that started off as a significant delay in the processing of one of BitBet's payment transactions. Mircea Popescu detailed his interpretation and handling of this incident in A Miner Problem. Both his interpretation and his handling have then been discussed in the comments section in Qntra and in the #b-a logs, with people mainly disagreeing on his interpretation of the result as evidence of a miner cartel. After he published the BitBet statement, the discussion focused almost exclusively on the 17BTC lost as a result of the incident and included in the statement as BitBet's loss. Essentially, on one side Mircea Popescu stated that the funds were lost by BitBet and therefore rightfully a business loss, while Kakobrekla stated that they were lost as a result of a mistake made by Mircea Popescu and therefore his own personal loss (or a loss that is to be covered by him). This difference of perspective proved deep enough to cause BitBet to go into receivership and to cause subsequently what seems like a split of people previously in #b-a (known as members of tmsr) and currently in #b-a and/or #trilema.

It's this last split that brought to light very clearly the fact that the issue is truly about the people involved and not at all about any of the technical issues or even the BitBet incident in itself. The BitBet incident was the trigger only. A trigger that proved to be attached to quite a bigger gun than initially thought perhaps, but what difference does that make anyway. In all this however, some misunderstandings seem to persist or are allowed to persist. Compare and contrast those two snippets from the #b-a logs:

On 2 March 2016, Mircea Popescu gives a brief statement of his reasons for his handling of the BitBet incident:

17:16:59 mircea_popescu: so that the problem can be fully exposed, in detailed, solid fact, so as to be handwaved by people.

17:17:04 mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.

On 28 March 2016 phf and kakobrekla frame the discussion again as one of handling competency, while making reference directly to the statement above:

19:14:13 phf: but more importantly to a hypothetical court trial is how much knowledge mp had about this topography, so that way we can say whether or not his call was competent or not

19:14:42 kakobrekla: phf by his own admission hi call was 'masochistic' (but later billed sadistically)

This last part continues into a discussion of what Mircea Popescu actually meant by that statement that he was "a masochist like that." While each of those involved has his own interpretation of it, none of those interpretations seems to me to actually hit the nail on the head2. And it's a rather important nail seeing how all the discussion in #b-a keeps coming back to it.

In my semi-detached, silent-observer view of the whole matter, the BitBet incident was essentially a case of shooting the messenger for bringing up the unpleasant news in such a terrible, hurting manner. And at this stage one can say that both Mircea Popescu and BitBet were unwanted messengers, except that the first is way more difficult to shoot and he clearly shoots back too. The initial incident exposed a significant problem for BitBet first of all and as such one for BitBet to deal with and solve. The masochistic trait of Mircea Popescu in this has nothing to do with losing some BTCs or the like: it has to do with his deliberate choice to bring the bad news in such a way so that people won't ignore it although he quite knows beforehand that they will still do all they can to actually wave it away. In his own words: "so that the problem can be fully exposed, in detailed, solid fact, so as to be handwaved by people." So yes, he expected the double payment to happen, but that was at the same time the only opportunity to get full evidence of a significant problem for BitBet.

The 17BTC in this context was the price BitBet paid to ascertain the extent of the problem and to obtain clear and unavoidable proof of it, forcing it to light in a way which can't be denied in any form (and indeed, post-incident, there hasn't been any denial of the fact that yes, BitBet has a problem). However, despite the acknowledgement of this problem and of its importance for BitBet, the discussion solely focused on the 17BTC in the way of: oh, but they needn't have been lost by BitBet! One has to stop first and consider: by whom should those BTC be lost then exactly to still have the problem exposed? The answer apparently given so far in the #b-a logs is: by Mircea Popescu! Presumably because he insists on exposing the problem - the messenger deserves at least a few lashes for insisting to make the bad news heard, doesn't he?

There is also the opinion that the 17BTC shouldn't have been paid a second time, given the clearly obvious and highly probable result of a double payment and therefore a loss. The question never asked on this is: how clear would the problem have been then? What proof would there be and of what exactly? What measures would have been taken and what value would they have on such shaky grounds?

At the end of the day, I see this as a clash of two approaches that are indeed irreconcilable: either expose rot as early and clearly as possible, at all costs and settling for nothing less than full eradication or otherwise mend and make do, working around the issues as best one can, minimising costs. I must say that I don't really condemn either - people afford what they afford and make their choices accordingly.

I want however to make it as clear as I can that this is the choice being made, the choice that killed BitBet, the choice that split tmsr. Your choice to make at every turn, too.


  1. I include people in "infrastructure" - call me names for this if you need another reason to do it anyway. 

  2. Nobody goes to just ask Mircea Popescu what he meant by that, either. 

July 17, 2014

"Get one just like bitcoin people"

Filed under: TMSR — admin @ 1:49 p.m.

When too much text is too much text, what do I do to get to read it? Why, get a dump of all data1, throw some automated analysis at it and have the lulz quite guaranteed2. No better test to see text mining fail, it seems, than applying it to irc logs on bitcoin-assets: a careful calibration of state of the art tools3 yielded only a clear case of "by the time you figure out and implement everything needed to obtain even reasonable results, you surely did the "automated" work at least 5 times if not 10, if not 100." Not that it was totally unexpected, of course, but still, given the enthusiasm of text mining people (or possibly just that of text mining people I know), I'd have expected at the very minimum some more robust convo splitting and/or term extraction, with a bit of help4. Not a chance: the results are better even if I split for convos based on the delay between lines (and that's one rough way to do it for sure).

As for extracting key terms, the main result that can be offered is that text mining can find by itself only terms that one has no interest in, or at least not on btc-assets: it did manage to find "BTC" as an important term (go figure) and that was about it all. How terribly useful and incredibly surprising, isn't it? Still, after a bit more fiddling around, it turns out that there is a bit of fun to get out of it. Here's a pretty picture with main "key words" for the logs of May 2014. It makes for good candidate captions such as "never really need to tell," "get one just like bitcoin people" or "mircea_popescu can like just bitcoin people." Real bits of wisdom there, aren't they?

Wordcloud for bitcoin-assets logs from May 2014 Wordcloud for bitcoin-assets logs from May 2014

Still, data is data and text is no exception, even if spewed forth at incredible rates day and night by a bunch of bitcoiners (and the occasionally lost newbie) on an irc log. Hence, back to more basic tools and trusted numbers, via R. And at least I got some pretty pictures!

Easiest thing to find out: who's most active? Top 10 contributers (as number of lines rather than number of words) seem to be quite the same, whether it's the whole period considered or just a month. However, the contributions follow (of course) a power law distribution, meaning that there are a few users who contribute a lot to the discussion and many users who contribute very little5 There is also quite a sharp decline at the top, with mircea_popescu contributing around 20% of the discussion and the next (ThickAsThieves overall or fluffypony in May 2014) barely contributing around 8% and 10% respectively. Here are some charts and lists (I excluded assbot, gribble and ozbot):

Percentage of lines contributed by distinct nicknames on bitcoin-assets logs between 26 March 2013 and 12 June 2014. Percentage of lines contributed by distinct nicknames on bitcoin-assets logs between 26 March 2013 and 12 June 2014.

 

Percentage of lines contributed by individual nicknames on bitcoin-assets in May 2014. Percentage of lines contributed by individual nicknames on bitcoin-assets in May 2014.

 

Top 10 contributers on bitcoin-assets between April 2013 and June 2014. Top 10 contributers on bitcoin-assets between 26 April 2013 and 12 June 2014.

Top 10 contributers on bitcoin-assets in May 2014.
Top 10 contributers on bitcoin-assets in May 2014.

 

Top 10 contributors overall (total number of words) Top 10 contributors overall (total number of words)

Top 10 contributors in May 2014 (total number of words) Top 10 contributors in May 2014 (total number of words)

Mean number of words per line for top 10 contributors overall Mean number of words per line for top 10 contributors overall

Mean number of words per line for top 10 contributors overall Mean number of words per line for top 10 contributors in May

Top 10 overall (mean number of words per line) Top 10 overall (mean number of words per line) Top 10 in May 2014 (mean number of words per line) Top 10 in May 2014 (mean number of words per line)
Mean number of words per line for top 100 contributors (up to at least 12 words per line) Mean number of words per line for top 100 contributors (up to at least 12 words per line) Mean number of words per line for top 100 contributors (limited to those with at least 12 words per line) Mean number of words per line for top 100 contributors in May 2014 (limited to those with at least 12 words per line)

 

Why is the above interesting? Mainly because it gives the newcomer one reasonable way to start figuring out the whole mess that is otherwise dumped on her head if taking the logs as a whole. Instead of trying to go through all the logs, set a threshold and start by filtering the logs to show first only the contributions of top people, as they are most likely to actually lead the discussions anyway. Considering how fast the percentage of contribution decays, I'd say that taking the first 10 contributors is quite a reasonable option, but for those in a hurry, it will probably do to select even just the first 5. This would reduce the logs effectively by more than half, with minimum chances of truly missing anything really important.

Then again, you could also just hang around in the chan there and the important will not miss you I guess.


  1. Thanks to kakobrekla

  2. And as a side result, I also get to actually read the logs, which was the point in the first place anyway, as I'd much rather read them for the purpose of designing some kind of tool to extract info out of them in the future than just...you know, read them. But that's just me. 

  3. think GATE plus all the cool plugins that can be used with it, as well as some custom-made JAPE grammars for the task at hand. 

  4. To be fair, it probably can be done, but with a TON of help rather than a bit and it kind of defeats the purpose from my point of view right now. Sure, after knowing the logs inside-out and building a good ontology for them and then defining and testing and polishing the rules until they shine, you might be able to get something kind of reasonable from the machine too, but by that time you'd probably get something kind of reasonable on the matter even from your dog. 

  5. or nothing at all, but I did not count those users here. 

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