#ossasepia Logs for Aug 2020


August 1st, 2020 by Diana Coman
Day changed to 2020-08-01
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/whoooore/ << Trilema -- Whoooore! [16:05]
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Aug-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #ossasepia Logs for Aug 2020 [16:07]
diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia newland0 [20:47]
deedbot: newland0 voiced for 30 minutes. [20:47]
diana_coman: hi newland0 [20:47]
newland0: Hi, I joined after seeing this: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Feb-2020/#1017844 [20:47]
sonofawitch: 2020-02-08 11:11:48 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: d41r2: to make it perfectly clear: you have the choice to go through all the log, collect those questions you ignored or refused to answer so far and then answer them in here one by one; only after you do that, you may ask for further clarification and/or talk in here; alternatively, you can of course either register a new key and restart this in a saner way and without all the stupid or otherwise get back to whatever you were doing ... [20:47]
newland0: and figured, "this might be a place where one can learn things occasionally" [20:47]
diana_coman: it happens, indeed [20:48]
diana_coman: newland0: have you found younghands.club ? [20:48]
diana_coman: !!key newland0 [20:48]
deedbot: Not registered. [20:48]
newland0: looking [20:49]
diana_coman: take your time; and ask your questions, too. [20:49]
newland0: why V instead of git? git is more code, but it's a full toolset that can be used essentially the same way and more [20:51]
diana_coman: newland0: how do you figure "the same way" ? [20:51]
diana_coman: even "essentially the same way", heh [20:52]
newland0: V seems like a way to exchange software and patches with trusted users [20:53]
newland0: git can do that also, so what am I missing? [20:53]
diana_coman: well, in between "seems like" and "can do that" there's a whole lot of "missing", you know? how can you go "can do that" when all you have for "that" is "it seems so" [20:54]
trinque: the order in which you stack things matters. [20:55]
diana_coman: let me dig out some refs for you, anyways [20:55]
trinque: one can bolt some crypto to the side of his git. [20:55]
trinque: this isn't the same as saying "the fundamental unit of the written word is a signed patch" [20:55]
trinque: there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from, were they built into a mature v client. [20:56]
trinque: they come on top of the sense, not before it. [20:56]
diana_coman: eh, and identity and what user even means and code starting with the *reader* not the writer ... [20:56]
diana_coman: there's a whole maze of roots from which the "seems so" tiny leaf sprouts [20:56]
diana_coman: newland0: here's a quite recent talk re defining V anyway, perhaps it's easier to read and get some idea; then there is my attempted summary and from there you have also the canonical links to follow and the history and ~all of it. [20:59]
sonofawitch: 2020-06-23 21:14:56 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman: I'm trying for a concise intro/description of V, in the present (post-Republic) context. Does this about capture it: "versioning system that supports owner control of computing by placing primary focus on the change and explicit management of trust through strong cryptography" ? [20:59]
newland0: "there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from" - yes [20:59]
diana_coman: newland0: how did you find the find that brought you here anyway? [21:00]
newland0: originally, saw a reference to trilema article(s) about wordpress xmlrpc.php being used as a ddos [21:00]
newland0: then other clicking around, recent comments, etc [21:01]
diana_coman: ah, so you just found trilema and then got in here? heh, not bad; only...take it slowly, there is a LOT to it; on the bright side, there is also plenty of time, no hurry. [21:01]
newland0: the rest of the info about v seems to answer the other part of my question [21:02]
newland0: "why not 'just' make git act as desired" [21:02]
diana_coman: newland0: on a side note, I've been toiling for...years already to make a different pile of ...code let's say so we keep it civil, "act as desired" [21:03]
newland0: is that wp or something else? [21:03]
newland0: and not that git is amazingly coherent but it does offer all operations needed to manipulate patch chains [21:03]
diana_coman: see the Eulora category on my blog if you are ever curious; no, it's Eulora's client [21:03]
newland0: ok [21:03]
diana_coman: newland0: among the usual versioning system (ie pre-V), git is indeed the most useful, yes; this doesn't make it any sort of V though and the lack is fundamental; as trinque points out, one can glue to it whatever on the side but that's hardly worth doing. [21:05]
newland0: depends on priorities [21:05]
diana_coman: newland0: what are your priorities? [21:05]
diana_coman: (and no, you can't make a car by attaching an engine to a cart, no matter what your priorities are) [21:06]
newland0: "just get something reasonable working" vs "build it right", in that case [21:07]
diana_coman: what's unreasonable about V? lol [21:07]
newland0: no, "passable" vs "close to ideal" [21:08]
diana_coman: otherwise yes, indeed, there is certainly the sane "get it to work" vs the insane "gotta be perfect because the world is now perfect too" but V implementation is the working type, not the perfect sort [21:09]
trinque: this seems like a fruitless tack newland0, everyone here has used git. [21:09]
trinque: I'm curious what you actually want to know, as I think it's a layer beneath this question [21:09]
newland0: I think that starts to answer my question anyway, "why not use git for this?" "because you would get something perhaps barely passable" [21:09]
newland0: questions are tricky things [21:09]
newland0: and v (read only a tiny bit about it) vs git (used it every day for years) seemed like as good a starting point here as any [21:10]
trinque: there isn't really so much of a "vs" to it. [21:10]
newland0: in the sense of using a known reference point to try to understand something else, not in the sense of competition [21:11]
trinque: v solved a problem we had, which was more important to us than the problem you perceive that git solves. [21:11]
newland0: ok [21:11]
newland0: going to read more about that later, thanks for the context [21:12]
trinque: happy to continue to discuss whenever [21:12]
diana_coman: newland0: in your terms, I guess the answer would indeed be "because git is not passable" [21:12]
trinque: newland0: there are plenty of sad tales to read in re: trying to self-host linux, finding that upstream hosts of "packages" suddenly disappear, etc [21:13]
trinque: they lead to "why v" [21:13]
diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia newland0 [21:17]
deedbot: newland0 voiced for 30 minutes. [21:17]
diana_coman: newland0: if you register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and then you can !!up yourself (once per connection is enough, too) [21:18]
newland0: ok, multitasking, back later to do that [21:25]
diana_coman: no rush; usually I'm around for 1-2 hours starting from 7pm utc ; there may be others at other times but that's when the chan can get liveliest. [21:26]
newland0: got it [21:27]
Day changed to 2020-08-02
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/the-apotheosis-machine/ << Trilema -- The Apotheosis Machine [18:09]
diana_coman: !!key newland0 [22:08]
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/312D6A6806B515864E3843C4FD6E2F17FF418772.asc [22:08]
diana_coman: !!v 1A74DF1642039B928BB4E1F3D3EDFACBFE9B5609436DA9F6ACBCB039ECBB8030 [22:13]
deedbot: diana_coman rated newland0 1 << Joined on seeing http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Feb-2020/#1017844 [22:13]
sonofawitch: 2020-02-08 11:11:48 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: d41r2: to make it perfectly clear: you have the choice to go through all the log, collect those questions you ignored or refused to answer so far and then answer them in here one by one; only after you do that, you may ask for further clarification and/or talk in here; alternatively, you can of course either register a new key and restart this in a saner way and without all the stupid or otherwise get back to whatever you were doing ... [22:13]
newland0: so deedbot lies when you !!up without actually being in the channel [23:36]
newland0: cool thingy though [23:36]
trinque: I don't really see a strong argument for keeping track of whether you joined the channel. [23:44]
trinque: then I've got the added complexity of worrying about whether freenode's lying to me, etc [23:45]
trinque: I'd rather just have the thing obediently issue the IRC command you asked for, and let that be all. [23:45]
newland0: also works, and makes sense [23:54]
Day changed to 2020-08-03
diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Aug-2020/#1028309 - there is no argument at all; the bot does what it's asked to do and it's not at all its job to check if the user joined the channel. [08:46]
sonofawitch: 2020-08-02 23:44:31 (#ossasepia) trinque: I don't really see a strong argument for keeping track of whether you joined the channel. [08:46]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/oh-happy-days/ << Trilema -- Oh happy days [19:28]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/costa-ricas-first-and-only-bdsm-club/ << Trilema -- Costa Rica's First and Only BDSM Club [22:10]
Day changed to 2020-08-04
diana_coman: whaack, what happened to you? [21:11]
Day changed to 2020-08-05
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/slavery-reparations/ << Trilema -- Slavery reparations [02:17]
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/05/you-will-have-to-push-my-buttons/ << Ossa Sepia -- You Will Have to Push My Buttons [17:06]
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/05/eulora-logs-for-Aug-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #eulora Logs for Aug 2020 [17:08]
whaack: diana_coman: I've fallen a bit out of focus, but I'm still around and will return to working on the block explorer shortly [20:55]
whaack: jfw: I'd be happy to do this http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028229 when I have some time [20:57]
sonofawitch: 2020-07-31 22:17:46 (#ossasepia) jfw: whaack: would you be interested in taking on taming the boost build system, i.e. replacing bjam with a plain makefile that builds only the necessary parts? [20:57]
diana_coman: whaack: cool then & good to know it. [21:06]
jfw: whaack: alright, no particular rush. I should add - what I proposed there isn't necessarily the only way the boost situation could be improved, though seems the most straightforward from a distance. Can discuss further when the time comes. [21:14]
diana_coman: jfw - from even more distance, it sounds to me like an accessible starting/entry point at least, so worth looking at anyway. [21:19]
jfw: yep. the whole "here are some source files, run a compiler on them then link" doesn't have to be nearly as complicated as it always seems to end up in the wild [21:23]
diana_coman: heh, one can define civilization whole by that "doesn't have to nearly as complicated as it always seems to end up in the wild"! [21:32]
diana_coman: but yeah, certainly true for compile+link [21:32]
jfw: hah, thought you might go for the generalization. also I don't mean it in a sense that "omg here's some suboptimal code, must fix it" but rather "here's an intolerable barrier to making sense of this mess, and relatively tractable beginner project" [21:33]
diana_coman: exactly so. (And yes, I took that was what you meant, it was quite clearly stated as such, indeed.) [21:36]
jfw: otherwise: cmake (ptui!) and gdb ports have come to Gales, and mysql 5.6.38 well underway with the dubious honor of being the thing to finally force the first two. I expect to publish these through another tarball release in the same style as the first (as there's no V based option ready to go and JWRD can't have a LAMP stack blocked on that right now). [21:50]
diana_coman: oh hey, that sounds quite useful actually, esp having mysql as option in there; (and huh, I hadn't realised cmake was mandatory for it, ugh) [21:55]
Day changed to 2020-08-06
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/shattered-thoughts-and-disparate-notions/ << Trilema -- Shattered thoughts and disparate notions [15:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-07
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/hypersexualized-female-suicide-through-strangulation-an-illustrated-tutorial/ << Trilema -- Hypersexualized female suicide through strangulation -- an illustrated tutorial [00:46]
Day changed to 2020-08-08
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-how-does-the-shutdown-relate-to-me-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - How Does The Shutdown Relate To Me? Adnotated. [02:02]
Day changed to 2020-08-09
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/american-pie/ << Trilema -- American Pie [21:44]
Day changed to 2020-08-10
feedbot: http://thewhet.net/2020/08/close-encounters-of-the-costa-rican-kind/ << The Whet -- Close Encounters of the Costa Rican Kind [01:37]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/soda-dungeon-2/ << Trilema -- Soda Dungeon 2 [04:46]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-cho-seung-hui-its-the-movies-stupid-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - Cho Seung Hui: It's The Movies, Stupid. Adnotated. [19:29]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-christopher-columbus-was-wrong-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - Christopher Columbus Was Wrong. Adnotated. [21:13]
Day changed to 2020-08-11
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-reciprocal-determinism-and-why-punching-people-out-is-way-cool-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - Reciprocal Determinism And Why Punching People Out Is Way Cool. Adnotated. [01:41]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-rage-of-the-average-joe-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - The Rage Of The Average Joe. Adnotated. [03:51]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-taboos-are-the-ways-christians-try-to-control-us-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - Taboos Are The Ways Christians Try To Control Us. Adnotated. [11:26]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/the-balls-of-schmaltz-and-the-end/ << Trilema -- The balls of schmaltz and the end. [18:51]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-wisdom-of-crowds-turns-into-madness-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - The Wisdom Of Crowds Turns Into Madness. Adnotated. [20:23]
diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia new_yh|93 [22:36]
deedbot: new_yh|93 voiced for 30 minutes. [22:36]
diana_coman: hello new_yh|93 [22:36]
Day changed to 2020-08-12
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-you-are-the-98-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - You Are The 98%. Adnotated. [18:29]
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/12/what-the-fuck-planeshift/ << Ossa Sepia -- What the Fuck, Planeshift? [19:32]
Day changed to 2020-08-13
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/quiz-show/ << Trilema -- Quiz Show [02:17]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/vida-y-noche-en-centroamerica/ << Trilema -- Vida y noche en Centroamerica [05:14]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-psychological-uncertainty-principle-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - The Psychological Uncertainty Principle. Adnotated. [22:14]
Day changed to 2020-08-18
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2020/08/no-we-cant-be-friends/ << Bimbo Club -- No, we can't be friends. [11:05]
Day changed to 2020-08-19
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/sheepeteering-sheepediah/ << Trilema -- Sheepeteering Sheepediah [19:52]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/anyways-i-was-interrupted/ << Trilema -- Anyways, I was interrupted... [22:48]
Day changed to 2020-08-20
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/20/the-gui-the-core-and-the-data/ << Ossa Sepia -- The GUI, the Core and the Data [17:50]
Day changed to 2020-08-21
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/sweet-smell-of-success/ << Trilema -- Sweet Smell of Success [19:29]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/the-two-popes/ << Trilema -- The Two Popes [21:58]
Day changed to 2020-08-22
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-parenting-and-personality-disorders-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thelastpsychiatrist.com - Parenting and Personality Disorders. Adnotated. [08:46]
Day changed to 2020-08-24
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/pp-irloff/ << Trilema -- P&P, irl&off [00:14]
diana_coman: lol, that was quick, slacko238651 [20:33]
diana_coman: whaack: what are you keeping busy with, those days? [21:16]
Day changed to 2020-08-25
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/the-man-looked-down/ << Trilema -- The man looked down... [10:38]
Day changed to 2020-08-26
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/gosford-park/ << Trilema -- Gosford Park [00:57]
Day changed to 2020-08-27
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/things-i-have-been-doing/ << Trilema -- Things I have been doing [01:25]
trinque: it is somewhat expected to see that whaack et al are less "men" than diana_coman, can't even dignify her with a response. [02:05]
trinque: ftr, this reflects solely on them. [02:05]
whaack: fair. i've been traveling a bit, surfing, working on a few saltmines tasks, and playing some chess. nothing of too much interest. [02:39]
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/stromboli/ << Trilema -- Stromboli [20:42]
diana_coman: I suppose silence seems the easy answer in the usual way of "no immediate effort -> easy" [21:32]
diana_coman: and possibly a sort of "if it's not said, it does not exist" or something. [21:40]
diana_coman: The whole #o log for past year being as it is full of counterexamples to the above illusions, I don't expect any additional example will help but I admit I'm slightly surprised if anyone still imagines that not answering is somehow different from missing an opportunity, at best. [21:58]
diana_coman: no loss for the one asking for sure, just to be clear. [21:59]
feedbot: http://www.krankendenken.com/2020/08/everybody-wants-to-go-to-heaven-but-nobody-wants-to-die/ << Krankendenken -- Everybody Wants to go to Heaven. But Nobody Wants to Die. [23:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-28
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/billy-bathhouse/ << Trilema -- Billy Bathhouse [18:52]
diana_coman: in case anyone is after a mini-puzzle on Friday evening: calculate the n-th number that is not a multiple of a given factor f; (had a bit of fun with this today on euloran grounds & will publish the formula in the next euloran dev update but those asked so far seem to tend to jump on a cvasi-solution that fails on corner cases). [21:14]
Day changed to 2020-08-29
jfw: diana_coman: if I understand rightly that the domain is positive integers and the prolbem is finding the n-th element of the sequence of numbers not multiples of f: from working some examples I've come up with f*(n-1)/(f-1) + 1, where / is of course integer division. Looks to me like it should be fully general, for f>1. [00:38]
jfw: to dinner [00:38]
diana_coman: jfw: it is, indeed, congrats! [10:25]
jfw: yay! 'twas a good size mini-puzzle, thanks for posting. [21:04]
diana_coman: jfw: glad to hear it; I thought it might have been too easy even and it was just that I previously asked the wrong people, lol [21:06]
diana_coman: ftr, the approach that I saw most often (and backfiring) seemed to go along the lines of "count and correct" with the correction causing the trouble. [21:08]
diana_coman: jfw: how's it going with getting mysql on gales? [21:14]
jfw: ah, that sounds like what I was trying in my head before writing some examples and seeing it's just division with some setup. [21:15]
jfw: mysql was going pretty well - then I managed to hose the bootloader on my Gales laptop, and discover this only later while away from my normal office & rescue media. At that point I dug back up some Scheme interpreter work, which has had my attention since (meanwhile we're still waiting for certainty on the deal that most motivated the mysql) [21:18]
jfw: meanwhile in "gardening", I've learned to reglaze/paint old wood frame windows [21:21]
diana_coman: huh, it's certainly an unexpected turn of events there; does the scheme interpreter work have its own motivating deal? [21:22]
jfw: not really; just something I'd been wanting to get back to for a while. [21:23]
diana_coman: to my eye and from a distance, there does seem to be a lot of getting back happening around. [21:28]
diana_coman: jfw: any plan of getting back to writing, too? [21:30]
jfw: It does keep popping up as "I really ought to..." but nothing that amounts to a plan. [21:31]
jfw: not that the plan would be anything fancier than "1. Write something", haha [21:32]
diana_coman: lol, that's not a plan by any stretch, indeed. I guess in other words, you don't yet see anything of interest in either the writing itself or the blog-result. [21:33]
jfw: I can't seem to argue otherwise. [21:36]
diana_coman: jfw: I thought you were pretty busy with mysql and then presumably the rest following from there but since it turns out surprisingly that it's not the case or not atm, would you have any interest in setting up/running an irc-to-others bridge for me? somewhere in the background among the long list of things that await for me to grow more time in trees, there's this one too. [21:41]
jfw: hm, possibly; do you have software in mind and just need it deployed somewhere & maintained, or what? [21:45]
diana_coman: mainly it's a service I want, not as much specific software. Otherwise certainly, on one hand there are already all sorts of bridges that even work for various definitions of work. As usual, each with their own bunch of requirements re environment and/or constraints and/or set/subset of what they can and mostly can't do. [21:51]
diana_coman: and otherwise there is always curl, sure. [21:51]
jfw: do you know the "others" you want to bridge to? I'm not quite seeing where curl fits in, do they have http apis? [21:55]
jfw: perhaps my questions are too specific for now -- what I'm after is some idea of what would be involved in providing the service & if I'm in a position to offer it. [21:57]
diana_coman: jfw: they tend to have http apis, yes; as for the list of others, it's open ended and meant to increase (possibly even decrease at times,lol) gradually [21:59]
diana_coman: for starters I'd want at least to have a proper look at whatever is supposedly going on in those very popular/latest honeypots [22:00]
diana_coman: discord, telegramm, whatever; it's still explore stuff, not like it's clear fully upfront or anything [22:00]
diana_coman: it's the sort of starting small and cheap, seeing if it's anything worth more to it or not. [22:01]
jfw: telegram I know has a kind of second-class "bot API" while the full protocol is a complex custom thing. Possibly the API's enough here though [22:01]
diana_coman: jfw: re whether in a position to offer it, I suppose you can't be; if you were, you'd be offering it already, really, so not sure what you mean there. [22:02]
jfw: haha. well I'm recalling lobbes and the php logger "omelette" [22:04]
diana_coman: I rather expect most have "a complex custom thing" but I'm not sure it's very healthy to care all that much about their complex custom thing; the point is to get what is useful, NOT at all in itself to implement their protocol or something, ugh [22:04]
diana_coman: lol, I can see what you mean then. [22:05]
jfw: seems like it would be a good experience to work on that sort of exploratory thing, finding how to get at what's useful without getting too deep into any one of the pits [22:08]
jfw: that sounds like system administration in general actually [22:09]
diana_coman: ahaha, possibly like working in computers in general, even! [22:09]
diana_coman: in/with/around/anywhere near the damned things. [22:10]
jfw: diana_coman: can I get back to you in a week? we should have a clearer picture of where the jwrd workload will be at by then. [22:12]
diana_coman: jfw: sure. [22:12]
jfw: cool, ty. [22:12]
jfw: as someone also interested in finding younger blood this is also directly interesting to me though. [22:14]
diana_coman: so perhaps we can work something out; it's certainly not burning atm. [22:15]
diana_coman: I'll add also for the record that eulora quite specifically does not include any in-game chat via the game server (as it can be easily noticed from the total absence of "chat" in the communications protocol). [22:18]
jfw: I suppose you can either figure out how to IRC or else code messages by having your character do dances like a honeybee [22:25]
diana_coman: well, I'm sorely tempted to add a button "talk to" to the context/gui interface, just to aggravate the user on every click on it, there is that. [22:28]
jfw: :q [22:37]
jfw: gah! [22:37]
Day changed to 2020-08-30
feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/2020/adding-a-new-socket-option-to-sbcl-or-common-lisp-is-the-death-of-me << The Tar Pit -- Adding a new socket option to SBCL; or, Common Lisp is the death of me [15:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-31
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/the-thumbs-up-and-other-dents-in-the-substrate-of-perception/ << Trilema -- The thumbs up and other dents in the substrate of perception [04:21]
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/31/in-euloran-moving-updates-inner-slots-and-outer-wheels/ << Ossa Sepia -- In Euloran Moving Updates: Inner Slots and Outer Wheels [21:44]

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