#ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020

June 1st, 2020 by Diana Coman

trinque:	curious what you think will float CR as the world economy goes into the shitter?	[00:10]
whaack:	trinque: well coming from NYC myself I feel more comfortable being in an area with a much smaller population and a nearby body of water I can fish from as everything starts fall apart.	[01:20]
whaack:	starts to*	[01:23]
trinque:	suppose I'm not too motivated to subsist if it's truly "everything" that falls apart.	[04:52]
trinque:	whaack: more considering what happens to the tiny country if exports dwindle. I imagine the decrease in tourism is already having an effect.	[04:52]
trinque:	I don't expect it'll be everything falling apart though. Nobody currently protesting or on the street had much to do with economic activity in the first place	[04:53]
trinque:	"end of world" is what it sounds like when the suicidal have a problem with projection	[04:55]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I've been thinking it over and I would like to move out (drop out?) of YHC. The primary reason being that I have just been focused more on my life outside of activities here lately. I've been meeting new people, new relationships, etc. I've been saving money, converting pieces into BTC, and getting rid of debt.	[06:55]
lobbes:	In other words my life isn't in a tailspin like it once was and I've managed to stabilize things a bit and am slowly gaining altitude. I honestly just want to continue on my own terms from here, whether I crash or not. It is hard for me to fully articulate it.	[06:55]
lobbes:	I still plan to stick around and keep my blog and bot alive, and I still aim to work on auctionbot as I outlined in my last article, though it will most likely be at a slower pace.	[06:55]
lobbes:	In any case, I want to thank you again for the tools you have given me and the various key nuggets you have taught me. I know I dropped off completely at the end there but I did gain quite a bit from the process, so I appreciate being given the opportunity to take part.	[06:55]
diana_coman:	lobbes alright.	[09:28]
diana_coman:	trinque the way I read whaack's plans there, it seems to me it's not really cr economy that he banks on - if anything, CR "unspoiled and free haven" appeal; do you see that tarnished/lowering somehow?	[09:31]
billymg:	trinque: from my perspective, and this isn't based on much more than intuition and the small observations i've made since moving here, the people here are much better at living within their means than most of the US/EU, who've become accustomed to a lifestyle on welfare way beyond their means	[14:51]
billymg:	so when things slow down, people here will carry on fine. whereas those in the various zones might start to get desperate	[14:52]
billymg:	so you could compare it to the rural, sane, self-sufficient parts of the US	[14:53]
diana_coman:	hm, spyked, did feedbot stop announcing my blog's feed in here?	[20:43]
diana_coman:	jfw - that tab-completion please (or I'll end up typing all combinations of j f w)	[20:44]
diana_coman:	spyked also, with the monthly log articles, it works actually to have feedbot announce again in #eulora too - preferably only the coding/eulora category, is that possible?	[20:46]
spyked:	diana_coman, for some odd reason I forgot to start the rss checker on the last restart (which is supposed to fix the reconnect issues once and for all). announcement should be on soon	[20:53]
spyked:	sorry for the delay	[20:54]
diana_coman:	spyked ah, no worries	[20:54]
spyked:	diana_coman, re #e sure, i'll look 5 mins into this. iirc it was possible to get feeds only for certain categories in mp-wp	[20:56]
spyked:	would you like anything else in there except ossasepia.com	[20:56]
spyked:	?	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/swarming-limbs-and-twisted-nets-5th-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia -- Swarming Limbs and Twisted Nets: 5th Parade of Hopefuls	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-5302020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 5/30/2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-5312020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 5/31/2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/aspectibus-gratiose/">http://trilema.com/2020/aspectibus-gratiose/ << Trilema -- Aspectibus gratiose	[20:57]
diana_coman:	spyked in there where? in #eulora there should be also trilema/smg category	[20:57]
spyked:	ok	[20:57]
spyked:	diana_coman, http://ossasepia.com/category/eulora/feed/ this looks alright to me. I can have it announced in #e	[20:58]
diana_coman:	cool, thanks!	[20:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: don't think any of those combinations are pronounceable but alright!	[21:04]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/eulora-logs-for-Jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #eulora Logs for Jun 2020	[21:05]
diana_coman:	jfw well, I'd be writing them, not pronouncing them! and think ye of whaaack and others too!	[21:06]
jfw:	dianna_comman: indeed.	[21:07]
diana_coman:	let the consonants multiply!	[21:09]
jfw:	as long as they're in consonance.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	not bad!	[21:14]
jfw:	lobbes: good luck, and fwiw, I've enjoyed your writing so I hope you keep the blog alive as in growing and not just serving packets	[21:15]
jfw:	(meanwhile the month of May glares at me, yes)	[21:16]
diana_coman:	poor unloved blog	[21:22]
diana_coman:	well, unloved by its owner, since others seem to like it even better but ...what can that do for it.	[21:23]
diana_coman:	spyked did feedbot spit out the full category feed in #eulora now?	[21:46]
diana_coman:	lmao	[21:46]
diana_coman:	making the summary since 2014 or what, lolz	[21:47]
diana_coman:	jurov - is "The Foundation does not require grandiose political aspirations such as a new world order to stay steward of bitcoin technology and V tool." just a jibe or do you literally mean that the foundation is dedicated to apolitical stewardship of "bitcoin technology and V tool"?	[21:56]
diana_coman:	or perhaps something else, in which case - what? I genuinely can't see a third option so far.	[21:57]
diana_coman:	at any rate, "new world order" is quite lulzy indeed - if anything, it was as old as it gets, rather.	[22:00]
jfw:	if indeed apolitical then it might as well be "blockchain technology", entirely devoid of discrimination (and meaning)	[22:05]
diana_coman:	I don't yet know, hence my question; I'll wait for jurov to clarify.	[22:08]
trinque:	billymg: my perception is that some of central america's relative stability has to do with the proximity of a meddlesome, gigantic military.	[02:34]
trinque:	and therefore the need for mexico to at least pretend to you know, smiling, "modern" politics	[02:34]
trinque:	might be great for the mexicans, but depending on how in-wot you look, don't know whether it's great for you.	[05:55]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026605 <-- lol, possibly. depends what's in the rss feed. poor thing has no notion of 'categories', it just looks for things it hasn't seen before; and usually when you !1subscribe to a new feed, everything's 'new'	[08:45]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-01 21:46:44 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked did feedbot spit out the full category feed in #eulora now?	[08:45]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026616 - spyked, I was under the impression that new subscriptions get some "last 5" or similar initial start rather than "all new" since otherwise it would mean that every time one subscribes to a new blog they would get the full history of that blog dumped no matter how long? or what am I missing there?	[09:49]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-02 08:45:57 (#ossasepia) spyked: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026605 <-- lol, possibly. depends what's in the rss feed. poor thing has no notion of 'categories', it just looks for things it hasn't seen before; and usually when you !1subscribe to a new feed, everything's 'new'	[09:49]
diana_coman:	jfw the hand-cranked scrolling in yrc is awful, apparently there are lines that I just don't manage to get on screen with page up/down, at all, how is that even possible? I end up having to read the chan from the log instead, ugh.	[09:53]
spyked:	diana_coman, that is a setting in wordpress, not feedbot.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	spyked oh, you mean the bot just takes as many entries as the blog shows on one page of feeds?	[10:23]
diana_coman:	the wordpress setting is to my mind for showing on a page, not quite the same (nor really wordpress/blog's concern) as what "new subscription" might mean, hm.	[10:24]
diana_coman:	on a page I want all of them indeed; on a new subscription though not so sure.	[10:26]
spyked:	yeah, it doesn't make any decisions re. the handling of items, it just announces them.	[10:26]
spyked:	diana_coman there seems to be some intertwining between rss generation and post-list pagination in wp that I never got. it kind of irks me too, e.g. http://thetarpit.org/category/asphalt shows only a few items, so if I set it to show more, feedbot will probably start spamming the same way	[10:31]
spyked:	prolly this would require a fix on both ends; it should be possible to disable pagination for article lists and set the number of rss items separately from pages	[10:32]
spyked:	or perhaps pagination is useless altogether, not sure if anyone has any need for it	[10:33]
spyked:	prolly feedbot could also have a per-feed knob of "number of items to sync at a given time", but this leads back to the problems in that http://thetarpit.org/2019/feed-bot-spec-proposal#fn:9 discussion; either way, I don't see a choice that wouldn't lead me to supporting only a subset of the rss standard (I'd have to make assumptions about ordering in within rss feeds/channels etc.)	[10:38]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/si-mami/ << Trilema -- Si, mam	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jurov you can voice yourself with deedbot.	[20:37]
diana_coman:	no need to wait for me or anything	[20:37]
jfw:	diana_coman: yes, that's the scrolling based on source lines rather than wrapped output awfulness; can certainly be fixed.	[20:44]
diana_coman:	jfw so... when?	[20:45]
jfw:	(a workaround I've used is to switch to the scrollback pane with 'Ins' then scroll linewise.)	[20:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: reckon I could get to at least some of the remaining problems later this week	[20:46]
diana_coman:	hm, iirc you meant among other things to push yrc as the irc client to use for all jwrd clients; so dunno, are you going to go about suggesting them various workarounds for usability now?	[20:46]
diana_coman:	for that matter, I gather poor dorion took it as it was and never complained properly, huh; dorion - don't let the tech start pushing workarounds, software can be fixed, just...complain about it, loudly! lol	[20:48]
jfw:	I'd rather not have to, sure.	[20:49]
jfw:	I think I did more complaining about it than any prior users, heh	[20:50]
diana_coman:	you did? as in complained about it to yourself or how?	[20:50]
jfw:	(first version didn't keep logs for example)	[20:50]
jfw:	even out loud sometimes!	[20:50]
diana_coman:	or you complained louder and first so nobody else got a chance to add to it!! I see	[20:50]
diana_coman:	ahaha - was anyone impressed by the out-loud complaints?	[20:52]
jfw:	heh, don't recall them noting either way.	[20:52]
diana_coman:	lol, that can't have been loud enough then	[20:53]
diana_coman:	jfw so now that scrolling in yrc will be fixed by the end of this week - what else is in your shall-not-be-written-because-then-it-doesn't-count plan for this week?	[20:54]
jfw:	diana_coman: one thing not noted yet that's bugged me, and I wonder if you think it's even a problem vis-a-vis the pasting discussion, is copying text from the terminal for opening links or otherwise, given the split layout	[20:54]
diana_coman:	hm, so far I didn't really need that and kind of still finding my way around it; atm I've set it up on a remote machine and connecting to it from all sorts too so not exactly a very settled setup otherwise	[20:56]
jfw:	diana_coman: there's more lesson & homework development, writing, moving the health plan application along, and communications re cutting off the Panama apartment	[20:58]
jurov:	trinque: deedbot says i can't voice myself, or I need to try !!up ossassepia or something like?	[21:00]
diana_coman:	jurov it's !!up #ossasepia jurov	[21:00]
diana_coman:	usually the chan name is tripping people up	[21:00]
jurov:	diana_coman: ty	[21:00]
diana_coman:	np	[21:00]
diana_coman:	!!help	[21:00]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[21:00]
diana_coman:	the help page is updated too afaik	[21:01]
jurov:	diana_coman: and the "jibe" expresses my disgust and departure from the detrimental verbiage that surrounded TMSR.	[21:01]
jurov:	the foundation it will never be apolitical by nature, but I'd rather focus, first fix bitcoin codebase, then fix software development as such, then larger thing	[21:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: ack re not-settled-yet setup, no rush (well on my part at least which I guess you've noticed!)	[21:02]
diana_coman:	jurov - if I understand this correctly, you mean that you want to focus on the trb codebase (or what is bitcoin codebase?) and otherwise the political part is implicit/by nature so not a direct concern; is this correct?	[21:08]
jurov:	diana_coman: correct. and "bitcoin codebase" includes a wallet which is due to be separated from trb, and possibly also block explorer	[21:10]
diana_coman:	for the logs and ftr, TMSR as an organization did not at any point promote talking without doing; that some indulged in that is their own personal doing, not TMSR's.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	jurov - is this bitcoin wallet and block explorer some parts/bits that you/ben did while out of the loop as you say or do you mean they are first/next on the list of to do or how?	[21:13]
diana_coman:	because following the logs of #therealbitcoin, I saw stan's statement that trb should be left as it is, further reiterated in response to jfw's questions.	[21:14]
jurov:	you should know better from eulora how the "leave everything in stone as is" ends up, no?	[21:19]
jurov:	re: wallet I think about salvaging good parts of electrum2, but when I get to it, I don't know.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	for the logs: the statement that trb should be left as it is and the discussion following jfw's questions on it	[21:19]
snsabot:	(therealbitcoin) 2020-05-11 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pov re trb worx ftr	[21:19]
snsabot:	(therealbitcoin) 2020-05-15 jfw: asciilifeform: mind expanding on what you mean by leave it the fuck alone and why?	[21:20]
jurov:	diana_coman:yes, i am aware of that and it is the current status quo but we will see if it is possible long term.	[21:21]
jurov:	and re: blockexplorer, there's mimisbrunnr, waits for when ben returns or someone else picks it up	[21:22]
diana_coman:	from the same logs, I had read also that jurov had only "meddled a bit with trb mempool and then tuned out" so I admit that I'm at a loss now re 1. that block explorer and wallet 2. why/how/in what exactly is jurov all of a sudden interested again	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jurov well, it was possible for years already so pretty long term, I'd say	[21:23]
jurov:	because mod6 was pretty desperate and I'd hate to see it just die	[21:25]
diana_coman:	I can imagine that indeed; and ftr I'm quite sorry about how it all turned out for mod6 indeed.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	jurov what is it that you'd have to see just die	[21:27]
diana_coman:	?	[21:27]
diana_coman:	hate*	[21:27]
jurov:	you don't want the foundation go on?	[21:27]
jurov:	or what was your idea that considerations for wallet and explorer surprise you?	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jurov I am not sure I see what this "the foundation" is, to go on; and if I stretch the definition of being to include those many years when the "status quo" as you put it just kept going, I don't think I want it to go on like that, no.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jurov ah, not considerations; I read that as "there is this software too" so I was surprised that the said software parts exist already and I had no idea about them; it turns out you meant them as plans, so that makes sense and no surprise;	[21:30]
jurov:	They are plans for me because I am to study and sign them.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	but otherwise - jfw and dorion as part of their jwrd work have an offline wallet and jfw plans to publish that as far as I know; not sure what is the foundation's claim/space otherwise since it was created initially as part of tmsr outreach really, not just library of code; that closed down, the foundation now aims to still be what exactly, an actual foundation? do you plan to raise funds and all	[21:32]
diana_coman:	that or what?	[21:32]
diana_coman:	also, atm from what I understand, ben vulpes is not active; does he intend to become active co-chair for this re-defined foundation?	[21:33]
jurov:	That is all tbd.	[21:34]
jurov:	Why do you ask, you won't work with me unless I exactly plan everything in detail?	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jurov - if you don't mind, what is it that you consider valuable in the foundation as it currently stands?	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jurov - I am trying to understand what it is that you mean to do - not in detail but as approach and especially the causes at the root of it all because it's those that decide in the end what happens further "in detail" as you put it	[21:36]
jurov:	The notion of deep study and careful improvements instead of "cool" feature development.	[21:37]
jfw:	ftr, our wallet is built to a spec from last year, vpatches are at gbw-node, gbw-signer, and the interpreter gscm, what's missing is mainly writeups introducing those.	[21:38]
diana_coman:	jurov while I was never part of the foundation, I don't think I ever followed "cool" feature development anywhere; and I doubt jwrd will go for cool features, seeing how they need to go for useful features or die, can't have better reason than that.	[21:40]
jfw:	I hit a wall in walking MP through a test run because I wasn't prepared at least on the V side which is why I spent some time looking into that recently.	[21:40]
jurov:	diana_coman: I was insinuating you do? I hope not!	[21:41]
diana_coman:	jurov no, I didn't take it as an insinuation; my point was that the characteristic you mentioned is one of individuals, not something of foundation's, hence my trouble in figuring out just what is there.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	not sure how to put this clearer, hm.	[21:42]
jurov:	I know what you mean and it is VERY true, Foundation can't ever hope to pay for that kind of deep study and careful improvements. But it can provide services, infrastructure.	[21:45]
jurov:	You're probably going to ask what services and infrastructure exactly, that I still have to work out myself.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	jurov - there are some questions well before that really: 1. to whom does the foundation intend to provide services and infrastructure (since that goes a long way in defining those anyway and yes, it matters more than what exact etc) 2. how does the foundation intend to fund itself 3. what does the history of the foundation and its association mean/how is that handled	[21:49]
diana_coman:	because it may intend to provide services and infrastructure but whether it intends to or not, it certainly and inescapably will provide the historical link with all there is to it, positive and negative.	[21:50]
jurov:	1. people will self-select, as was hitherto the case	[21:51]
jurov:	2. fundraising will be in order when it's clearer what to do with current resources	[21:52]
jurov:	3. what do you have in mind? what does "handling of history and its association" mean for eulora, for example?	[21:55]
diana_coman:	jurov huh? how do you see the 2 similar? eulora is owned by s.mg which is a mpex listed entity with funds raised via IPO	[21:56]
diana_coman:	how is that similar to a tmsr-outreach foundation endowed with funds meant for outreach of tmsr , I don't follow	[21:56]
jurov:	And did tmsr name any successor entity? AFAIK no. So it's up to chaiprpersons of Foundation.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	re 1. in that sense people always self-select, sure; even customers in a shop will self-select, not like you go and force them into the shop or something; there is however still some profile that you can tell you are aiming for, at the very least	[21:58]
diana_coman:	jurov - how do you mean a successor entity? so the money was donated for tmsr outreach; tmsr closes down and the money was never used for its intended purpose; so then you mean it should have... what, found some other entity for which to outreach?	[22:01]
jurov:	well, should it?	[22:01]
diana_coman:	jurov it's well known, I don't go for any "should", lol; nothing ever "should"; there is however the uneasy squaring of this "oh, tmsr closed down so now we keep the money and figure out something to do with it"	[22:03]
jurov:	http://thebitcoin.foundation/charter.html do you see anything about outreach of tmsr here? i don't	[22:11]
jurov:	then, there is http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt which says taxes should be used for some kind of protection of #bitcoin-assets members, which also never happened	[22:13]
jurov:	I hope it's clear to everyone it needs to be rethought, and I happened to be the person responsible.	[22:17]
diana_coman:	jurov uhm, not sure I follow there the link you are making; to start with the easier bits to clarify - the taxation was never paid because never "bitcoin realised", sure; as trinque often and correctly noted, tmsr was essentially broke and never managed to develop commerce	[22:17]
diana_coman:	or whatever else, for that matter.	[22:17]
jurov:	How it did not develop commerce? I was basically living off doing commerce in TMSR for years already!	[22:18]
diana_coman:	this easy bit aside though, the core uncovered seems to be related to a. the foundation as a non-tmsr entity b. what the donations were for	[22:19]
diana_coman:	jurov well, you tuned off and refused to be an active part so what can I say there.	[22:21]
diana_coman:	I hadn't realised that the role of the foundation as outreach for tmsr and the intended role of the donations were unclear/disputed so I haven't prepared with full links on the matter; I suppose this becomes needed though now, for the full record if for nothing else.	[22:24]
jurov:	What can I say, under TMSR prolonged hiatus is an grave offense punishable by forfeiture of funds, good TMSR is no more.	[22:24]
diana_coman:	huh? according to your own statement you purposefully "kept a low profile" so it's not just some hiatus or how do you mean?	[22:25]
diana_coman:	and no, as far as I know Mike_C got his funds back after prolongued hiatus no problem (and even lost out because of BingoBoingo's handling of the matter, not because of the absence)	[22:26]
jurov:	you're splitting hairs, hiatus is a hiatus	[22:27]
diana_coman:	jurov listen, I gather that you personally are happy that tmsr is no more; that is fine; I also gather that you personally lost those funds; that however does not make it some tmsr-rule and I provided one counterexample.	[22:28]
jfw:	rereading that declaration I don't see anything about the tax being used for protection, but rather that the signers pledge to support each other and the declaration. (Nothing about a republic either for that matter, though dunno, perhaps the mutual pledge + tax constitutes a republic well enough)	[22:33]
diana_coman:	reading through that declaration it strikes me that it actually even further binds the foundation as a part of tmsr so even more so ending when tmsr ends, uhm.	[22:33]
jurov:	Forfeiture is forfeiture, even if "only" 30btc fine.	[22:35]
diana_coman:	jfw yes, there wasn't anything about "protection"; and indeed, I took the whole as = tmsr ; now if I understand it correctly, jurov sees somehow the foundation entirely apart from the rest in there	[22:35]
jurov:	Yes it is apart. I consider paying fines where no damage was done, only for hiatus, to be an act of government.	[22:37]
diana_coman:	jurov the fine was basically for choice of BingoBoingo, nothing to do with hiatus; but at any rate, I'd say this is in the end not the core issue for the foundation at all (unless you mean that therefore the foundation funds are to be kept - is this it?); the core is a. the role of the foundation b. the intended role of donations	[22:38]
jurov:	Well, I have put out a statement and tried to explain it. I don't have more to say atm, if you aren't satisfied, there will be more statements with more information.	[22:40]
jurov:	And I pay no heed to TMSR anymore, because it behaved to my clients worse than any government.	[22:41]
diana_coman:	jurov there's no tmsr anymore indeed; you can certainly do as you choose and thank you for stating your mind on this matter.	[22:43]
diana_coman:	to me so far it seems it's indeed a matter of "jurov lost those funds therefore the foundation's funds are to be kept too"; people will have to decide for themselves, as always.	[22:46]
jurov:	OK. And If I may honestly ask, how comes the Foundation is a mess, and Eulora is (supposedly) not, when there's fewer active players than trb nodes despite much bigger resurces of S.MG?	[22:47]
diana_coman:	jurov sure: look at what eulora has developed during the interval and compare with what the foundation has developed during the same interval; for all the more people involved and more public support, at that.	[22:48]
diana_coman:	and note that I ran a node and it's even still public ; the foundation did 0 for eulora if you want to count that too.	[22:49]
jurov:	Thank you!	[22:54]
diana_coman:	for the log and readers that might be unaware - the "few active players" is because of a public decision that went along the lines of "beta clearly successful given the amount of playtime and money players poured in, so will focus on getting out the rsa-version before anything else"; and if someone thinks that players who have in game full bitcoins are somehow "not active" because not playing	[22:56]
diana_coman:	right now, what can I say.	[22:56]
diana_coman:	technically speaking I should have said what s.mg developed rather than eulora since the entity in question is really s.mg.	[23:01]
jurov:	If I were you, I'd probably nitpick that S.MG was about running games, not about development.	[23:05]
jurov:	Really, did you ask and answered yurself and your boss all these questions you wanted me to answer?	[23:06]
diana_coman:	jurov - I didn't mean that as strictly "code", no.	[23:06]
diana_coman:	jurov huh	[23:06]
diana_coman:	?	[23:06]
diana_coman:	I don't follow	[23:06]
diana_coman:	ask me if there's anything unclear, I don't mind	[23:07]
jurov:	for example, I found intereting how you argued tmsr has not developed commerce..it has never crossed your mind eulora could have been it?	[23:12]
diana_coman:	jurov yes, mp was /is commerce and s.mg is his; I did indeed take him out of it since it was all in the context of reference to trinque's observations; perhaps I cut there too short the corner and it became unclear	[23:13]
diana_coman:	so let me restate that: from those active in tmsr, it was only MP who made money from outside tmsr.	[23:14]
diana_coman:	sure, from what I gather, trinque has his firm and ben vulpes has his too.	[23:14]
diana_coman:	from what you said, I understand you made money from tmsr being there, while keeping a low profile.	[23:15]
jurov:	No that's not true.	[23:15]
jurov:	I made most of it while actively running the MPEx broker, and it helped to get outside money quite a lot.	[23:16]
diana_coman:	alright; I don't know that part.	[23:16]
diana_coman:	thinking of what you meant re those questions - if you mean whether I know what sort of player eulora targets for instance - yes, I do.	[23:18]
jurov:	People who don't mind their funds are liable to disappear on a whim?	[23:20]
diana_coman:	jurov lolz, no.	[23:20]
diana_coman:	and no funds disappeared.	[23:20]
jurov:	You're just lucky.	[23:21]
diana_coman:	jurov do I understand it correctly that you have now a bone to pick with eulora or with s.mg or with me or what?	[23:21]
jurov:	Regardless of bone, you seem to think there's no eulora-related history that might affect the players?	[23:24]
jurov:	more precisely, mp-related?	[23:24]
diana_coman:	jurov you do realise that there are eulora players with negative ratings from mp and yes, they are not affected; does this answer your question?	[23:24]
diana_coman:	iirc there is even a public statement somewhere re this, if anyone cares to dig it out.	[23:25]
jurov:	Yes, it answers. As I said, you're lucky, so far.	[23:27]
diana_coman:	jurov well, you can say that to anything really, sure; one is even alive to be still breathing, so far; until they die, sure.	[23:28]
diana_coman:	even lucky to be alive*	[23:29]
jurov:	Right, when you are denied access to funds and being told it's your fault in some vague terms, you exhale with joy that you are at least alive :)	[23:31]
diana_coman:	jurov no, I didn't mean that at all.	[23:31]
diana_coman:	jurov - I'll keep reading your further statements , as you said you intend to publish them; it's late here and I'll go offline now but I'll be back tomorrow as usual if there's anything else you want to ask.	[23:33]
diana_coman:	as I said earlier and meant it, thank you for stating your mind on it all.	[23:34]
jurov:	Similar, and I had not came here to grind my axe, sorry.	[23:34]
diana_coman:	no problem.	[23:34]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-7/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 7	[00:38]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-1/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 1	[20:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-2-the-imperative-mood-notes/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 2 - The Imperative Mood Notes	[20:26]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-8-how-to-pentatonic/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 8 - How To Pentatonic	[20:33]
diana_coman:	jfw in further yrc nitpicks - does it apply lowercase to incoming nicks or how does it manage to end up with 2 windows for the same nick only based on case-sensitiveness? e.g. /msg NickServ will end up in window NickServ but reply will end up in a new window, nickserv	[21:09]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-9/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 9	[21:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: that rings a bell, I'll have a look on this pass. possibly more like not applying a case-mapping where it should. IRC is supposedly case insensitive, unfortunately implementations differ as to what the mapping actually is (Scandinavian origins). still, should at least do one mapping consistently	[21:15]
diana_coman:	aha, that sounds sensible	[21:15]
jfw:	I'd also like it to show date changes (when there's actually messages there), that'd be nice for the monthly blogolog too	[21:17]
diana_coman:	well, the 2 are separate, lol	[21:19]
jfw:	I know, I'm pointing out what to me seems a shortcoming in both since the dates are not otherwise displayed.	[21:21]
diana_coman:	alright, noted	[21:22]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/03/jfw-daily-summaries-week-of-1-jun-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- JFW daily summaries, week of 1 Jun 2020	[21:23]
diana_coman:	tbh for yrc I don't particularly see it as a big thing either way	[21:23]
diana_coman:	I can kind of see the use for it more in the blogo-monthly log indeed	[21:23]
jfw:	alright, good to know re priorities on those usability issues.	[21:24]
jfw:	one can get full unix timestamps from the log files (and I have a script to format these as human dates that'll go in the next patch) but I saw that as a workaround.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	aha, I noticed the unix timestamps in the log files, made for a pleasant change from all the various formats/not 2 the same otherwise.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	welcome back cruciform	[21:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks! Apologies for the ~month absence - I fell off the wagon a tad :p	[21:27]
jfw:	diana_coman: heh, you might not like then that it's centiseconds rather than the more conventional float-seconds or ns or whatever	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw ahahaha	[21:27]
diana_coman:	see, I didn't yet look at it in any detail	[21:28]
diana_coman:	cruciform one of those days I'll figure out what's this falling-off-the-wagon fashion all about!	[21:29]
cruciform:	diana_coman, in fairness, I guess most people don't have much of a wagon to fall off (not that I have such an excuse)	[21:31]
diana_coman:	you are possibly quite right there, indeed, huh.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	cruciform how's the move going?	[21:33]
cruciform:	at any rate, I'll have a post up tonight about the prior month and the upcoming week; my internet connectivity will be a bit spotty over the next few days - packing stuff and moving to a friend's for a coupla weeks	[21:34]
cruciform:	the move's not been terrible so far; just time-consuming	[21:35]
diana_coman:	so where to?	[21:36]
cruciform:	back to Surrey - had enough of London to last a lifetime!	[21:37]
diana_coman:	ah, I thought it was either Bath or York	[21:37]
cruciform:	yea, reckon it still will be, but there are some local family issues I need to sort out in the next week or two	[21:38]
diana_coman:	ah, so move 2 to follow, lolz	[21:38]
cruciform:	I believe one's allowed to actually view properties again, since Monday - didn't wanna move sight-unseen	[21:38]
diana_coman:	oh, do they expect one to move now without even visiting?	[21:39]
cruciform:	lol, yes - hopefully the moves'll be inductive; and if the first one goes well, so will the rest!	[21:39]
cruciform:	I believe that's been the case for the last coupla months, yea - they only allowed "online viewings"	[21:40]
diana_coman:	ahahah, that figuring out proof by induction clearly left its mark	[21:40]
jfw:	next up, paying rent by posting pictures of cash	[21:40]
diana_coman:	lmao; then again, I guess on one hand "wtf all the pretense, they are all ~same anyway" and otoh since it still goes ahead anyway...why not push it further, ofc.	[21:41]
cruciform:	jfw, I understand lots of people's "girlfriends" work along the same lines, nowadays	[21:41]
jfw:	cruciform: you'd think the reuse possibilities there would be lucrative except the market's well saturated for quite some time now :D	[21:43]
cruciform:	lol, I suppose they'd argue it lowers carbon emissions/is a form of recycling, if people don't have to actually meet up	[21:45]
diana_coman:	it's safer!	[21:45]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I noticed since Monday, far fewer masks; traffic - cars and foot - much closer to pre-hysteria levels	[21:47]
diana_coman:	here I barely saw any masks at all at any time; gotta be London the worst, huh.	[21:47]
cruciform:	I did a coupla informal counts over the last few weeks - it was always >50%; since Monday, ~33%	[21:48]
diana_coman:	but yeah, at the weekend it was absolutely packed in and around the chiltern hills area	[21:48]
cruciform:	sounds lovely! have you been to Hughenden Manor	[21:49]
diana_coman:	I have to admit though that I find the orderly queues quite funny to watch - from a distance, lol	[21:49]
cruciform:	ikr! I should've taken pics - some of the bank queues were 100 yards long	[21:51]
diana_coman:	no, is that anything special? I tried to get to the hills, proper hills, god-damned it but I still ended up with mainly walking-on-the-flat-near-the-river	[21:51]
diana_coman:	bank queues ? ahahah ; so far I saw only supermarket and shop queues	[21:51]
diana_coman:	so next time I guess I'll just get a boat to start with, makes more sense anyway	[21:52]
cruciform:	yea; people snaking back in 2metre increments	[21:52]
diana_coman:	so 1980's!	[21:53]
cruciform:	Hughenden is great - especially if you like redbrick; it's on a hill, though nothing mountainous!	[21:54]
diana_coman:	funnily enough, trying to find a "village" we ended up walking all the way to ..."the town"; apparently we failed to register the 3 houses as village or something.	[21:54]
diana_coman:	but anyway, from what I saw the "distancing" idea is that people get out of the way simply so honestly, I don't mind it at all.	[21:55]
cruciform:	same, though I am in need of the services of a tailor/barber/gym-operator	[21:56]
diana_coman:	cruciform bwahaha, redbrick is a never-ending-complaint in my house	[21:56]
diana_coman:	but yeah, redbrick is expected too; the surprise is if it is something else, really.	[21:57]
cruciform:	diana_coman, lol, I used to be the same, but it grew on me	[21:57]
diana_coman:	now a tailor/barber/gym-operator in one like that might be even rarer than not-redbrick, lol	[22:00]
cruciform:	lol, National Trust is missing a beat!	[22:00]
cruciform:	isn't it odd how the narrative has changed - virtually overnight - from the flu to the riots? And no one seems to care/notice - as long as they have something to be hysterical about	[22:02]
diana_coman:	cruciform what exactly would you class as "care/notice"? as in where & how can that even happen exactly?	[22:03]
diana_coman:	it's not hysterical, it's just ...with a purpose, ok?	[22:04]
diana_coman:	verschlimbesserung (thank you for the term, bvt!)	[22:04]
cruciform:	I suppose I mean, the mainstream media goes from 110% Covid doom to 110% blacklivematterTM doom, and people just shift their focus of worry	[22:05]
cruciform:	but without thinking, "oh, I suppose that last thing couldn't have been so bad, afterall" - just straight to the next worst-thing-ever	[22:07]
diana_coman:	eh, common; it's like expecting people at latest film to still worry about the previous film's action, lol	[22:07]
cruciform:	how come everything is a Fast and Furious 11/Avengers-universe/Harry Hobbit thing nowadays, then?	[22:09]
diana_coman:	fashion really; but what difference exactly do you think it makes ?	[22:10]
cruciform:	well, it seems people can fanatically follow a narrative within a fictional universe... oh, lol; it's the same with the media	[22:12]
cruciform:	at least the movies have special effects!	[22:13]
diana_coman:	well, they are trying! it's called PPE!	[22:13]
cruciform:	Personal Protective Equipment? Politics, Philosophy & Economics?	[22:14]
diana_coman:	now recalling the village-life discussion - have you ever seen sheep as in more than "look, there's some sheep over there"?	[22:14]
cruciform:	I've seen 'em in a petting zoo	[22:15]
diana_coman:	shall not spoil the PPE mystery and allow readers to enjoy it!	[22:15]
diana_coman:	cruciform ah, no, that won't do anything, hm	[22:15]
diana_coman:	literally to see for a couple of days how sheep behave; the bland "they follow one another" fails utterly to capture any of it really	[22:16]
cruciform:	ah, no - I've only seen 'em in passing; though the way people've reacted to the virus...	[22:17]
diana_coman:	that they follow blindly is one thing; more at the root though, I'd say it's the fact that they will desperately push into the flock, it's at times a very vivid illustration of what I can only call - the desire to not-be-individual	[22:20]
diana_coman:	it's that the one thing that trumps everything else, the total terror, nothing else.	[22:21]
diana_coman:	but anyway, I doubt there's any way I can somehow express that just through description as such.	[22:22]
cruciform:	I'm recalling Patrick Bateman's "I want to fit in!"	[22:22]
cruciform:	diana_coman, isn't it strange, the trope of everyone being a unique special snowflake, given the above?	[22:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform, lol, I'm only vaguely aware of it as a reference; I rarely (very rarely) watch films at all	[22:23]
diana_coman:	not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[22:24]
diana_coman:	especially so all-important to affirm it, not to ..be it	[22:24]
cruciform:	thanks for the insight; like any good ruminant, I'll have to chew it over - meanwhile, I'd better get back to boxing - be back tomorrow!	[22:26]
diana_coman:	in the enduring words of a frustrated classmate: "I only say crazy stuff and everyone says I'm nuts but you DO even crazier stuff and nobody says anything!!"	[22:27]
diana_coman:	laters	[22:27]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/04/back-to-work/ << Young Hands Club -- Back to Work!	[04:27]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6012020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/01/2020	[05:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/troco-as-in-truculence/ << Trilema -- Troco, as in truculence	[07:39]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/building-trb-on-debian-wheezy-a-report << The Tar Pit -- Building TRB on Debian Wheezy; a report	[12:19]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo, from what I see, your Montevideo Standard and/or video exploration is working well for you and I'm glad for it but since your focus is naturally there entirely, it seems to me you are better off as former member of yhc rather than in that hopefuls category; is this alright with you?	[21:12]
jfw:	I was thinking about this why snowflakes, so far just came up with: "because pretense appears cheaper/easier than actually becoming an individual"	[21:15]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-03 22:24:21 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[21:15]
jfw:	diana_coman: not sure if you caught this admittedly belated update given "welcome back to the summaries". Now to make 'em actually daily...	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw I did catch them but yeah, they didn't seem quite all that regular/daily, heh	[21:21]
jfw:	gotcha.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	jfw re snowflake, that's already secondary, not in any way a cause of the focus as such	[21:27]
diana_coman:	and for that matter in general - nobody ever gets offended by words that don't touch some real sore spot; nor does anyone obsess over matters that are already sorted and taken care of for reals.	[21:29]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: That is ok with me.	[21:30]
diana_coman:	jfw it's not as much that the pretense seems easier - it's more that there isn't much else left within the boundaries that they chose already - or alternatively, it's more that the actual being terrifies to such extent that it seems outright impossible; and the terror gets papered over with ever-louder chanting that "it's great as it is!!"	[21:33]
diana_coman:	and sure, it's also just one result of a long string of previous choices (sometimes choices made unknowingly, sure, not less choices made for that)	[21:37]
diana_coman:	so indeed, it is way, way easier to pretend given all the lack of exercise at being accumulated previously	[21:38]
diana_coman:	this doesn't make it work any better, nor does it make more important nor a better choice	[21:39]
diana_coman:	basically the pretense by that point is the easy and even "strategy" - to the extent that you'd call a river's flowing towards next lowest point a "strategy", since it's quite that, simply lowest effort in the moment	[21:41]
diana_coman:	even natural "strategy" * (not sure why I keep skipping words lately)	[21:42]
jfw:	easier to say you're where you want to be than to paddle back upstream once you've missed it.	[21:43]
diana_coman:	hm, not even as much that; it's more like this - the lack of being is perceived and it gnaws terribly; for all that, there aren't any resources to be able to even realise that "paddling upstream is needed" or anything of the sort; so ...to appease fear, what is left but talking loudly	[21:45]
diana_coman:	hence my earlier choice of word "chanting" because to some extent it's quite that - a ritual for lack of any better.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	for that matter, the same mechanism applies and is obvious to even way simpler things - I lost count how many teenagers "lacking confidence for the exams" I saw; how could they have any confidence armed as they were with a... set of rules of which they understood ~nothing; sure, they had all the words that "it's good" and "well done" and great marks and all that but they were too alive to not	[21:49]
diana_coman:	notice (even if without being able to explain it/ put it into words) the trouble	[21:49]
diana_coman:	the "cure" being in each and every case, sitting them down and getting them to actually make sense for the first time of whatever it was, the tiniest bit to start with; works wonders.	[21:51]
jfw:	like memorizing formulas without seeing how they're derived or proven? which is what I noticed was mostly happening around early teens	[21:53]
diana_coman:	heh, worse - "learning" by having gone through a set of known problems with known steps-to-solve; basically pattern-matching, all of it.	[21:55]
diana_coman:	coming back round to why is it so all-important that everyone is a special and unique snowflake - precisely because it's an important thing that is lost/given up.	[21:59]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-03 22:24:21 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[21:59]
jfw:	not quite seeing the "worse" re pattern-matching: isn't that just what a formula is? "given this problem, follow these steps"	[21:59]
diana_coman:	ah, "formula" in my head stands literally for something like F=m*a lol; not a full algorithm basically; but yes, if you meant "given this problem, follow these steps" then indeed, that.	[22:01]
jfw:	indeed I meant it as an example then it generalized.	[22:02]
jfw:	thanks for the explain!	[22:04]
diana_coman:	yw	[22:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/05/the-bitcoin-foundation-2014-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- The Bitcoin Foundation 2014-2020	[17:18]
billymg:	i'm very close to having the js removal patch ready for review, a lot of php got chopped as well	[18:10]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6042020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/04/2020	[18:44]
diana_coman:	billymg - that sounds very good indeed!	[20:41]
diana_coman:	I'll be back tomorrow as usual.	[21:18]
diana_coman:	well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[20:58]
diana_coman:	what he imagines spying to be; I guess it serves me right for trying to engage them; whatevers.	[20:58]
diana_coman:	trinque if you consider something wrong/missing/misstated in my record, I'd appreciate if you leave a comment there with the correction; thank you.	[20:59]
jfw:	in daily progress of boring things, I've made headway on the yrc scrolling fix and still think end of week is doable. I decided on the new approach; there were a couple functions with logic based on the naive one; I found one of those was mostly redundant already and worked out how to remove it	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw - that sounds good to me!	[21:22]
jurov:	diana_coman: appears you don't in fact need my input to publish loaded commentary, where these involved too call me names behind my back.	[12:03]
jurov:	I'll excuse from answering further questions from you.	[12:03]
diana_coman:	jurov no idea what behind your back; but no, I am not interested to hear anything further from you.	[13:11]
diana_coman:	!!rated jurov	[13:11]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated jurov -3 at 2020/06/06 14:09:11 << http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026915	[13:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-06 20:58:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[13:11]
diana_coman:	!!rated asciilifeform	[13:11]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated asciilifeform -3 at 2020/06/06 14:08:50 << http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026915	[13:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-06 20:58:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[13:11]
diana_coman:	ftr, all human-made comments on my blog get published.	[13:14]
diana_coman:	trinque I thought !!up worked for those with positive rating from me? anyways, not all that important anymore either way I suppose.	[13:15]
trinque:	diana_coman: hm, seems like I have the algo slightly wrong	[17:35]
trinque:	!!gettrust diana_coman jurov	[17:36]
deedbot:	L1: -3, L2: 15 by 9 connections.	[17:36]
trinque:	I need to add that L2 only matters if L1 is zero, not negative.	[17:36]
trinque:	I'll take a look.	[17:36]
trinque:	diana_coman: regarding your article, it reads to me as a restatement of what's plainly in the logs.	[17:54]
trinque:	there are folks that clearly had something they really wished to say to daddy "but anyway, if I did he wouldn't listen"	[17:55]
trinque:	and now you are apparently to them his representative.	[17:55]
trinque:	as for me, I find it an outgrowth of the larping, which is why I said "I suspect that if enough technological achievements accumulated around bitcoin, they'd speak for themselves as bitcoin has."	[17:56]
trinque:	meanwhile, world still darkens every day.	[17:57]
BingoBoingo:	The growing darkness is a large part of why I have been quiet on the IRC lately. Seemingly miracle of miracles I have managed to get a few loyal regular viewers, but... still inside the dunbar number so it is just a somewhat bigger social circle.	[20:37]
BingoBoingo:	I don't know if what I do can ever be enough, but it seems I am getting some traction with helping Latino/as realize the USSA, especially California, is third world.	[20:46]
BingoBoingo:	For all of the sadness in the late/post Republic blame game I can't help remember the period where the early Republic had victories and then... the window seemed to close as the enemy derealized themselves a sort of victory. Their delusionists delivered the pantsuits a sort of victory, woe unto the victors.	[20:50]
diana_coman:	trinque - I wouldn't have thought I'd ever say this to a texan but I find I appreciate your diplomacy!	[21:05]
diana_coman:	and so I won't press further any of the rather obvious points in all of it.	[21:06]
diana_coman:	at any rate, facts and deeds certainly speak for themselves, indeed; I wouldn't say "technology" as such though, no.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo I don't see that "blame game" you mention but whatevers.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	some people are happy it failed, others are sad it failed; there's the record, there's the choice and that's that.	[21:25]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/07/rmd-w31-review-may-30th-jun-7th-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- RMD w31 review, May 30th-Jun 7th, 2020	[22:21]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/bitch-im-a-cow/ << Trilema -- "Bitch, I'm a cow..."	[02:17]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/08/dg-agenda-20200608/ << Young Hands Club -- DG Agenda 2020.06.08	[02:40]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6052020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/05/2020	[04:44]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6062020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/06/2020	[04:55]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-06-01#1026585 << ty jfw. Yeah, I intend to keep growing my blog. It has been a very useful tool for me thus far.	[06:25]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-06-01 19:26:11 jfw: lobbes: good luck, and fwiw, I've enjoyed your writing so I hope you keep the blog alive as in growing and not just serving packets	[06:25]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/yrc-re-genesis-and-patch-for-smooth-scrolling-and-other-fixes/ << Fixpoint -- yrc re-genesis and patch for smooth scrolling and other fixes	[08:53]
jfw:	me and my big mouth, "this week should be doable, I've got some progress on the coding [but haven't really factored in the consequent problems that turn up, or documentation updates, or patch cutting, or writeup...]"	[09:21]
jfw:	anyways, there we are. I'll be taking a break today, and will catch up on summaries/plans anon	[09:23]
diana_coman:	jfw - that's how one learns to factor all that stuff in! (if not next time, then the time after that...)	[10:08]
diana_coman:	jfw - new scrolling seems to work great; I especially like it that the last line of previous page remains first line of the new page so it's easy to follow; thank you!	[21:08]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/09/dg-agenda-20200609/ << Young Hands Club -- DG Agenda 2020.06.09	[04:35]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6072020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/07/2020	[08:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6082020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/08/2020	[08:44]
jfw:	diana_coman: glad to hear it!	[21:00]
diana_coman:	jfw no trouble so far either; only I realised I was relying on some of irssi's quirks too, though nothing all that important.	[21:08]
jfw:	I suppose one can always adjust to quirks if they're reliable	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw - this was more a convenience I suppose eg. it filled automatically the chan name based on current window for stuff like /names	[21:21]
diana_coman:	not an issue at all, only I had even forgotten that the cmd required such a thing, so I ended up with the equivalent of * & consequently a full list; not that it wasn't funny	[21:22]
jfw:	ah, yeah it wraps the underlying irc command a bit more that way. I'd prefer that behavior actually; might fit in with the tab completion work since that requires tracking the names.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	given the length of results, it provided a good test case for the new scrolling too!	[21:26]
diana_coman:	hello cruciform, how's the study in countryside charms, cottages and peaceful internet?	[21:29]
cruciform:	diana_coman, hey! notwithstanding 1Mbit internet, pretty great - though had a jackdaw starve to death and fall down the chimney this morn	[21:30]
diana_coman:	huh, with all the stuff around, how did it manage such feat	[21:32]
diana_coman:	I suddenly remember when I was hugging the router in Devon, trying to remain connected to Eulora, lol	[21:33]
cruciform:	I think you're onto something regarding the masks being a Londonthing - none to be seen at Knole Park today	[21:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-06-03 17:13:45 diana_coman: here I barely saw any masks at all at any time; gotta be London the worst, huh.	[21:33]
cruciform:	The stupid bird wasn't stuck or anything - it just chose to chirp away for a coupla days, then expire. Kinda like people, I guess	[21:34]
diana_coman:	well, if nobody cared to kill it despite all the noise...	[21:36]
cruciform:	that was my idea, but my hosts are delicate souls	[21:37]
cruciform:	"the damn bird is waking us up at 6am every morning!" "so, light the fire!"	[21:37]
diana_coman:	eh, 6am is close to late for countryside so I can see their point too!	[21:37]
cruciform:	lol, definitely pushing the average wakeup time back	[21:38]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/ffdgdfgdfg/ << Bimbo Club -- ffdgdfgdfg	[00:03]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/annoying-fetlife-trends/ << Bimbo Club -- Annoying fetlife trends	[00:06]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6092020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/09/2020	[09:00]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/10/dg-agenda-20200610/ << Young Hands Club -- DG Agenda 2020.06.10	[16:05]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/an-introduction-to-metaphysics/ << Trilema -- An introduction to metaphysics	[18:47]
diana_coman:	!!up gdrz1927	[19:19]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[19:19]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia gdrz1927	[19:19]
deedbot:	gdrz1927 voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:19]
diana_coman:	hello gdrz1927	[19:20]
gdrz1927:	hello diana_coman	[19:25]
gdrz1927:	this is a temporary account, i stumbled upon all this trb/tmsr thing and i'm currently trying to figure it out... really exciting	[19:28]
diana_coman:	well, a bit late for both the party and the dramaz but on the bright side, there's no hurry anymore so ...take your time, I guess.	[19:59]
diana_coman:	cruciform - meant to say, do use the log from my blog e.g http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/ esp when you link	[21:33]
diana_coman:	because the old one is set to be axed ; (when I get around to do it but it will still be done)	[21:34]
diana_coman:	well, and anyone else who doesn't want to have broken links afterwards but anyway.	[21:35]
cruciform:	diana_coman, will do!	[21:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: for patching old links, it looks like the anchor IDs on the blogged pages match those from the ossabot database; is that so? then do you have a suggested way to derive the middle part of the URL (/yyyy/mm/dd/ossasepia-logs-for...)?	[21:57]
jfw:	I'm adding the raw archives to my weekly backup.	[21:58]
jfw:	ah, that goes for the #trilema links too.	[21:59]
diana_coman:	jfw the main reason why I haven't rushed with turning the plug off on the old logger is that I haven't yet got around to make the script to update the links	[22:00]
diana_coman:	it's doable but the script needs to be done and once that is done, I can finally get rid of the shit.	[22:00]
diana_coman:	the links for #trilema chan though would need to point to the logs on trilema.com now and I haven't checked but it may possibly be a different mapping required there (beyond just the obvious change of site, ofc)	[22:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: alright, I'll update my links once the mapping is available.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	given the full size of the archive + the fact that I anyway don't have it all, I am not that keen on importing the #t log too as articles though perhaps I should do it as a humongous one and link there at least easily, huh	[22:03]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027000 - this is true and on purpose, exactly to help with the mapping: the anchor ID is exactly the same, matching, indeed	[22:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-10 21:57:25 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman: for patching old links, it looks like the anchor IDs on the blogged pages match those from the ossabot database; is that so? then do you have a suggested way to derive the middle part of the URL (/yyyy/mm/dd/ossasepia-logs-for...)?	[22:11]
diana_coman:	for getting the rest: there's unfortunately the added headache of the date basically; ie the easy way is to simply extract the day and convert to the corresponding title as it's straightforward; the trouble though is that for the #o import I didn't fake the publish date so one either needs to rely on mpwp auto-completion (uhm) or otherwise extract first those too	[22:13]
diana_coman:	starting with May 2020, it gets easier as there's only one page per month but sadly I didn't think of that from the start	[22:14]
jfw:	could draw up a table relating start and/or end ID, title, and publish date	[22:17]
diana_coman:	myeah, pretty much what it ends up as indeed; though at least I can get it easily from the db.	[22:19]
jfw:	will bbl	[22:21]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/11/dg-agenda-20200611/ << Young Hands Club -- DG Agenda 2020.06.11	[03:09]
jfw:	I'	[16:00]
jfw:	I'll be out at the 'camp' again today.	[16:00]
diana_coman:	enjoy!	[16:06]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks for your feedback on my agendas	[21:53]
cruciform:	this is probably a stupid question, but - what would it take to boost your rating of me to 2?	[21:54]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/12/dg-agenda-20200612/ << Young Hands Club -- DG Agenda 2020.06.12	[04:12]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6102020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/10/2020	[08:26]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6112020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/11/2020	[08:38]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027020 - why do you want that rating?	[10:04]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-11 21:54:29 (#ossasepia) cruciform: this is probably a stupid question, but - what would it take to boost your rating of me to 2?	[10:04]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/o-vaca-cu-cabina-si-un-bou-cu-torpedou/ << Trilema -- O vaca cu cabina si-un bou cu torpedou	[16:06]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/12/eulorossa-animata/ << Ossa Sepia -- Eulorossa Animata	[17:02]
diana_coman:	waves	[21:00]
jfw:	waves back	[21:02]
jfw:	still looking for that writeup, it's, uh, it's in here somewhere!!	[21:03]
diana_coman:	jfw well, possibly under the review of this week?	[21:04]
jfw:	must be.	[21:04]
diana_coman:	cruciform - hopefully I didn't get you stuck with that question, did I?	[21:04]
diana_coman:	dorion what happened in the end with that Tuesday article?	[21:10]
cruciform:	diana_coman, perhaps I'm focusing on the purpose rather than the causes? ie. better to focus on acting in the right way to improve rating, rather than getting the rating itself? http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027033	[21:20]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-12 21:04:51 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: cruciform - hopefully I didn't get you stuck with that question, did I?	[21:20]
cruciform:	though I confess, I haven't really grokked the source article (despite several reads)	[21:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform - I asked you why you want the rating to try and figure out the extent of your confusion there, because your original question does more to point out that sort of trouble than asking much	[21:23]
diana_coman:	so literally - what do you think that rating gives you or why do you want it to start with?	[21:23]
diana_coman:	but take your time if you need it, as it is I need to go today in some 5 minutes anyway	[21:24]
diana_coman:	so it's no rush, can wait until tomorrow for sure	[21:24]
cruciform:	diana_coman, ok; I'll think about it, and ask tomorrow	[21:24]
billymg:	~40k lines removed from mp-wp, almost 30% and gets it under 100k lines (~97k). compare to previous round of snips	[00:20]
billymg:	i just finished reviewing the patch and making notes about what was removed. next i will deploy on my own site and then publish in an article	[00:21]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/notes-upon-notes-and-comments-of-comments-for-now-and-forever-amen/ << Trilema -- Notes upon notes and comments of comments, for now and forever, Amen.	[01:19]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/girl-interrupted/ << Trilema -- Girl, interrupted	[17:09]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027043 - this sounds great, billymg, looking forward to the article.	[21:07]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-13 00:20:39 (#ossasepia) billymg: ~40k lines removed from mp-wp, almost 30% and gets it under 100k lines (~97k). compare to previous round of snips	[21:07]
jfw:	agreed; I find myself now wondering how on earth it still needs those 97k without even the JS... probably lots of copy-paste based code twiddling	[21:09]
diana_coman:	jfw - while I can't say I know the full answer to that, from what I recall, the code has a lot of various check-this-and-check-that, all sorts of "cases" and whatnots	[21:10]
jfw:	"what if the user prefers writing upside down" etc	[21:11]
diana_coman:	that too! but I meant more as in trying to list and cover all environment's warts/surprises one by one.	[21:13]
diana_coman:	cruciform - you around?	[21:13]
diana_coman:	jfw - what's in your publishing queue for next week?	[21:15]
jfw:	hm ok. I suppose I'll have a closer look once the patch is out, since we're considering including it in support & hosting offerings. (re WP)	[21:16]
diana_coman:	sounds sensible	[21:16]
jfw:	diana_coman: wallet is first up, then, let me see...	[21:17]
diana_coman:	well, I'm not even quite expecting anything further than next up anymore, lol	[21:18]
jfw:	fair... but anyways, a bitcoin block feeder script and notes from my latest sync (finally done now!) would be another.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	sounds all good and interesting to me; if again all-on-one-side-only, as well.	[21:22]
jfw:	I could do some photos of walking in woods...	[21:23]
diana_coman:	come to think of it, maybe one of the bots should get extended with a betting service for each announced deadline :D	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jfw that sounds lovely too, why not do it anyway?	[21:24]
jfw:	there's also the jwrd landing page - I wasn't thinking of that as blog but it's in the queue all the same.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	it can count as publishing, sure	[21:25]
jfw:	and yeah, the photos will be nice.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	and yeah, it makes sense if it's at the front of the queue too; only ...just do it already, what can it take so long.	[21:26]
jfw:	I got a bunch of those building up huh.	[21:27]
diana_coman:	not like it gets any different if you ignore it/postpone it/don't-want-to-start-on-it any longer	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw - did the week end up all the more productive for not looking at it too closely?	[21:28]
jfw:	lol, notrly (as you're no doubt unsurprised)	[21:29]
diana_coman:	well, I'm by default all willing to hear what works best for others!	[21:29]
jfw:	in other findings, 'hexdump /dev/urandom' doesn't work as well for demonstrating Ctrl-C interrupts as it does for exposing socialist queuing algorithms that rank machine output equally important to human input such that the more verbose the machine, the longer it survives. Main offenders appear to be ssh and tmux, while screen, xterm and linux console are fine	[21:54]
diana_coman:	ahaha, not-bad description	[21:54]
billymg:	jfw: yeah, there's definitley a lot more that can be removed. i even managed to get a few more easy snips in on this patch (down to ~89k total lines now) by removing some extraneous filesystem libraries	[19:30]
billymg:	i just deployed to billymg.com, so it's live now	[19:30]
billymg:	i think for the next slimming patch i might try to write a script to do some static analysis of which methods are created but never called	[19:32]
billymg:	jfw: out of those extra lines removed almost 6k was for a zip archive library lol	[19:35]
billymg:	previously used for people who wanted to "install" plugins via the web UI (or maybe it was themes, or both), rather than just manually copying them to their respective directories	[19:37]
jfw:	billymg: the ad-hoc, informally specified, bug-ridden and slow implementation of half of V, aha	[20:37]
diana_coman:	billymg - iirc some of your changes did touch the default theme(s) so hm, if I nuked those entirely and have my own, what do I need to port over?	[20:56]
billymg:	diana_coman: you mean some of my changes in previous patches? (but yes, this one removed some bits from the included themes as well)	[21:03]
diana_coman:	yes, I mean some of the changes in previous patches (I didn't see this patch at all, yet)	[21:03]
billymg:	diana_coman: hrm, i think the only changes were for the js text selection thing, which was later removed by jfw	[21:04]
billymg:	so that one can be safely ignored	[21:04]
diana_coman:	cool then	[21:04]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah, i would recommend just keeping the directory of your current custom theme as is. the included themes can be safely nuked for sure (server-side selection is handled in the footnotes.php as of this patch)	[21:09]
billymg:	same for anyone else considering using this patch, if you spent any time customizing your theme just keep as is	[21:09]
billymg:	i'll try to get it posted later today or tomorrow. i hadn't done a full fresh deploy since the patch removing tinymce and so i had to double and triple check everything before flipping the switch	[21:14]
diana_coman:	billymg no rush at all	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/15/jfw-review-week-of-8-jun-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- JFW review, week of 8 Jun 2020	[07:56]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/tuesday-after-christmas/ << Trilema -- Tuesday after Christmas	[17:44]
feedbot:	http://billymg.com/2020/06/the-mp-wp-weightloss-program-removing-javascript/ << billymg -- The MP-WP Weightloss Program: Removing JavaScript	[19:06]
diana_coman:	billymg - the latest vpatch seems to pack quite some changes indeed; is there still a way to change the permalink from the gui while editing a draft?	[21:08]
diana_coman:	I guess I'll deploy it on yh and then wait to hear if there are any complaints, lol	[21:10]
billymg:	diana_coman: yup! you can manually change the slug from the same location, the input is now always showing, instead of a click-to-show js thing	[22:00]
billymg:	the server-side auto-generation of one when first saving a new draft also works, along with sanitization of what you enter into the custom permalink field	[22:01]
diana_coman:	sounds quite good, I'll have to make some time to catch up with the latest mp-wp!	[22:03]
billymg:	i think you'll like it, definitely	[22:04]
billymg:	it was getting to where when i switched back and forth between my local install and the old one on billymg.com the old one just felt painfully bloated and clunky	[22:05]
diana_coman:	ah, I don't doubt that, it's more squeezing some time to read through the patches, press it all and then do the dance of changing it in place without messing up anything else.	[22:06]
diana_coman:	heh, sounds exactly as it should be, inded	[22:06]
diana_coman:	indeed	[22:06]
billymg:	makes sense, yeah i might look into writing some deploy scripts for myself	[22:06]
billymg:	not sure if anyone's got anything like that already for mp-wp	[22:07]
diana_coman:	I don't have anything but I'd like to have !	[22:07]
diana_coman:	lolz	[22:07]
billymg:	i thought about it before as perhaps a vpatch containing my config, that could be manually replayed on top of a new press	[22:07]
billymg:	kk, will share for sure if i make progress on it	[22:08]
diana_coman:	billymg how did you deploy the new version now?	[22:08]
billymg:	tar'd the fresh mp-wp from this patch and placed on the server, manually copied over configs, themes, upload/download directories etc	[22:09]
billymg:	double/triple checked file permissions and anything that tripped me up in the past	[22:09]
diana_coman:	ouch	[22:09]
billymg:	then mv prevDir prevDir_BAK && mv mp-wp prevDir	[22:09]
billymg:	haha yeah, ouch indeed	[22:10]
diana_coman:	tbh what I deployed so far on existing installations I literally patched but the patches were way smaller/touching way less, hm.	[22:11]
billymg:	it could work, but yeah for a change this big i felt like starting with a fresh install	[22:12]
billymg:	i gotta run into town now, will bbl	[22:13]
diana_coman:	laters	[22:13]
diana_coman:	jfw re those postponed tasks, the question would be why did you kick them for later at "do" time? but otherwise for the quick-and-obvious, the conclusion would be not as much that you don't care about improving it but that you care more about something else there (whatever it might be); in other words, it doesn't burn	[21:20]
diana_coman:	yet.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	and sure, re "improvement", you'd rather have the option/keep it seemingly on; it's a thing this too, people want to have the option, not to actually do something with it.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	as you say too, you'll "be always accosted by chores demanding attention that would have been better done earlier" but... that doesn't burn either ie you consider you'll still be able to deal with it (and you probably will, too, sure, though not without cost).	[21:25]
diana_coman:	that cost though is in the future, while the cost of changing is in the present and so the present cost weighs more and so it goes.	[21:27]
jfw:	nod	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw - I'll only add that you would be able to do so much more and of the exact type you enjoy otherwise, for the cost of that hated change in the present; but well, saying it doesn't count anywhere near figuring it out yourself.	[21:34]
jfw:	thanks for the saying anyway though.	[21:35]
jfw:	"why did you kick them for later" - seems to be a matter of stealing time for things I want because I don't trust myself to make time / believe that there will be more time later if I don't	[21:53]
sonofawitch:	2020-02-17 15:58:38 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: thing is: overall it starts to add up to some quite successful self-tripping you got yourself there, heh; on one hand you are all "this is what needs to be done so will - glumly if need be - do it" + "there is not that much time nor need for leisure" and on the other hand - not all that surprisingly either - at any chance there is, you steal the leisure only marking it as "work", pretty much.	[21:53]
diana_coman:	jfw - you know, managing yourself includes making time for fun, for sure!	[22:01]
diana_coman:	if that's really the thing, perhaps have a go at it that way - literally pick something fun as "compensation" for doing the needed not-fun and keep to both; at the end of the day, the honesty with yourself is really the most important part, no matter what.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	well, not to mention that it's way more enjoyable to be on top of what happens when instead of being blown about and playing catch-up with it all, but anyways.	[22:07]
jfw:	"nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" (-F. Bacon, apparently) comes to mind, in the sense of staying on top like that requiring one to focus on things at the right time	[22:15]
whaack:	billymg: I'm setting up mpwp with your new weightloss patch. When I log into my dashboard I can see all my content. But neither the homepage nor the individual pages are displaying any content. Here are the commands I ran on my server. /var/www/html is the root directory of my blog and ~/mp-wp-no-js/ is the directory of the freshly pressed mp-wp. I'll keep investigating, but maybe you have a quick	[22:23]
whaack:	solution for my problem.	[22:23]
jfw:	whaack: missing a link there?	[22:27]
whaack:	jfw: yes thank you. the commands I ran => http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=A1zV	[22:30]
jfw:	as a general practice, that should be something like "mv html html.bak" rather than "rm -rf" prior to verifying that it actually works :P	[22:38]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/16/updating-your-old-log-links/ << Ossa Sepia -- Updating Your Old Log Links	[22:52]
whaack:	jfw: I made a backup of everything first, but I gather that the above procedure of (of making and then removing .bak files) would help prevent against rm slip ups.	[22:53]
billymg:	whaack: what you did looks similar to what i did (except as jfw said, moving the old directory to BAK insted of rm'ing)	[22:53]
billymg:	my guess is file permissions	[22:53]
billymg:	i would look and make sure all the files in there are 744	[22:55]
billymg:	err, 644 rather for the files, 755 for the directories	[22:56]
billymg:	do you see any errors in the apache error log?	[22:56]
whaack:	billymg: yes, there was one error I took care of, and another one now I'm seeing when I access ztkfg through the dashboard.	[22:58]
billymg:	whaack: do you mind pasting the error?	[23:01]
whaack:	billymg: I made a few changes months ago to some php files to fix some problems I had with mpwp working with my local version of php. I need to find my notes that I either wrote locally, on younghands, in #o, or on ztkfg. My other plan is to press mpwp to the penultimate patch and then run diff -qr on the pressed directory with my backup directory to see what the small changes I made were.	[23:01]
jfw:	whaack: it's not about rm slip-ups so much as optimism I suppose. "this is 99.999% going to work so I'm fine with restoring from remote backups in worst case" vs. "this is a big change I don't have much experience making so best keep a quick + known-good way to roll back if it fails"	[23:02]
billymg:	whaack: ah, i see. i thought for ztkfg you were running on anyserver though, no?	[23:02]
whaack:	billymg: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=YY3C	[23:02]
billymg:	ah, i get those all the time, those are just warnings and shouldn't actually break anything (i've been meaning to fix those but just havne't gotten to it yet)	[23:04]
billymg:	whaack: you said there's one more error that's displaying in the dashboard?	[23:04]
billymg:	as in, spit out into the markup rathre than the error log	[23:05]
whaack:	billymg: I am running on ubuntu with php 5.6.4	[23:06]
whaack:	billymg: No, the error occurs in the apache log files when I access the dashboard. The error is: WordPress database error Expression #1 of ORDER BY clause is not in SELECT list, references column 'ztkfgdb.wpmp_posts.post_date' which is not in SELECT list; this is incompatible with DISTINCT for query SELECT DISTINCT YEAR(post_date) AS yyear, MONTH(post_date) AS mmonth FROM wpmp_posts WHERE	[23:07]
whaack:	post_type = 'post' ORDER BY post_date DESC, referer: http://ztkfg.com/wp-admin/	[23:07]
jfw:	billymg: possibly the 'fix' for the warnings etc. is 'php4 genesis' :D	[23:10]
jfw:	one concern would be, can we find a decent manual for that, since the 'docs' are of course a php-powered living document wikihorror.	[23:13]
billymg:	whaack: hmm, seems like a legitimate mysql error then	[23:14]
billymg:	though i can't say i know what is causing it (and haven't seen it before myself)	[23:15]
billymg:	i would maybe try to search for that error and see if anything comes up	[23:16]
jfw:	the error sounds like it's from mysql so rather search for the query that causes it	[23:17]
billymg:	jfw: good point, would be good to know the offending query	[23:23]
billymg:	whaack: some of what i'm seeing elsewhere is that this error can be suppressed by disabling 'strict mode' in your mysql	[23:25]
billymg:	not suggesting that's the ideal longterm solution but maybe just to get it running again for now	[23:26]
billymg:	(confirmed that billymg.com's server's mysql is not in strict mode, so possible this is it)	[23:28]
whaack:	billymg: sry, my connection got dropped. I'll twiddle with the file permissions and see if turning off strict mode in mysql helps	[23:55]
billymg:	whaack: no worries	[00:12]
billymg:	whaack: and if you do find that the case was that your fixes got blown away with the fresh install, maybe you could compile them up in a patch for mp-wp after you get it working again	[00:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-06-16 18:28:22 whaack: billymg: I made a few changes months ago to some php files to fix some problems I had with mpwp working with my local version of php. I need to find my notes that I either wrote locally, on younghands, in #o, or on ztkfg. My other plan is to press mpwp to the penultimate patch and then run diff -qr on the pressed directory with my backup directory to see what the small changes I made were.	[00:14]
whaack:	billymg: the problem i had was fixed by setting the permissions in my themes dir to 755 for directories and 644 for files as you stated above. Maybe this problem could have been avoided by running "cp -r -perserve=all" when copying back my custom themes dir. The only other remaining weird was that I got the following error when trying to load individual pages:	[02:15]
whaack:	[Tue Jun 16 23:35:09.402436 2020] [:error] [pid 15883] [client 201.237.50.38:41192] PHP Fatal error: Call to undefined function wp_enqueue_script() in /var/www/html/wp-content/themes/default/header.php on line 33	[02:15]
whaack:	I commented out <?php if ( is_singular() ) wp_enqueue_script( 'comment-reply' ); ?>	[02:15]
billymg:	whaack: ahh, glad to hear it's working	[03:50]
billymg:	whaack: re: the theme error, that's a good catch. the default themes had some javascript for placing comment reply boxes after the parent comment with threaded replies enabled. i chopped that out of the included themes but anyone bringing over their existing theme will likely run into this as well	[03:52]
billymg:	diana_coman: ^ the above probably a better answer to your earlier question	[03:54]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-14 20:56:56 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg - iirc some of your changes did touch the default theme(s) so hm, if I nuked those entirely and have my own, what do I need to port over?	[03:54]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6152020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/15/2020	[06:57]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6162020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/16/2020	[07:04]
jfw:	billymg: since the #select was formerly done in the themes and I gather now in the 'footnotes' processor, perhaps that would need to be reverted too in one's theme?	[21:08]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027177 - ah, this rings a bell and I'll need to have a look because iirc I have one level nested replies (though not sure it has anything to do with the theme as such, hm)	[21:10]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 03:54:19 (#ossasepia) billymg: diana_coman: ^ the above probably a better answer to your earlier question	[21:10]
jfw:	whaack, possibly you have some restrictive 'umask' causing the permissions trouble in the first place, but yes cp -p can be helpful	[21:11]
jfw:	Working through the process for a demonstration, deploying TRB in a fresh environment - even knowing where to look for all the pieces - is definitely a pain; and my own wallet too though less so	[21:15]
diana_coman:	lol, a more familiar pain with own wallet?	[21:18]
jfw:	V alone or at least the one I'm using so far doesn't get you over the hill of 'resolve this project name / key / whatever to a set of files ready to press'	[21:18]
jfw:	diana_coman: perhaps, but own wallet has fewer pieces needing to be rounded up so far	[21:19]
diana_coman:	that sounds like a script being sorely needed	[21:20]
diana_coman:	and a write up afterwards.	[21:21]
jfw:	that's probably the practical approach, yeah; but needing a special unique script for this one thing grates. I need a bitcoin-bootstrapper, why? haven't I already bootstrapped a unix and V?	[21:23]
diana_coman:	well, that route it's already "why do I need to bootstrap V, haven't I already bootstrapped a unix?" heh	[21:25]
diana_coman:	the "why" in the end is simple really - because there's no better alternative available and no, can't wait "however long it takes" until that better alternative is "ready" etc	[21:27]
jfw:	"that's how we ended up in this software mess in the first place" sticks in my head but I can't disagree	[21:31]
jfw:	comes right back to balancing present vs future costs.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	no, it's not that how we ended up in this software mess in the first place, heh	[21:34]
diana_coman:	choosing what is as opposed to what one might want is certainly not "how one ends up in mess"	[21:35]
diana_coman:	note though that choosing what has to be chosen now doesn't mean that it has to remain like that forever or anything of the sort	[21:36]
diana_coman:	you can argue perhaps that making a script now lowers the pain and thus makes the problem less visible/easier to ignore - in which case fine, don't make the script and keep the pain until the root trouble gets solved, sure	[21:37]
diana_coman:	only I don't think it's your clients who are supposed to either solve it or wait until it's solved.	[21:38]
jfw:	I think I get it - or at least I've got as far as I'm going to from chewing on this example.	[21:48]
jfw:	this one script won't be creating bigger problems, in itself; my thinking was that by using something you become more dependent on it + the system it's a part of. perhaps that's more a result of using it blindly or allowing that to happen than of the mere use though ("don't blame the drug")	[21:52]
diana_coman:	jfw, that is exactly what I mean above by makes the problem less visible to some extent; but this visible always depends inevitable on who and how is looking, heh.	[21:56]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:37:35 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: you can argue perhaps that making a script now lowers the pain and thus makes the problem less visible/easier to ignore - in which case fine, don't make the script and keep the pain until the root trouble gets solved, sure	[21:56]
diana_coman:	inevitably*	[21:57]
jfw:	I'm just slower to figure out what I'm arguing then!	[22:01]
diana_coman:	well, came to rant and ended up arguing - it might take a while to switch!	[22:07]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/a-cursory-look-at-the-infamous-trb-wedge-bug << The Tar Pit -- A cursory look at the infamous TRB "wedge" bug	[15:07]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027181 << correct, though worth pointing out this addition was already present in this patch. i'll add a note about it to that article	[16:05]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:08:28 (#ossasepia) jfw: billymg: since the #select was formerly done in the themes and I gather now in the 'footnotes' processor, perhaps that would need to be reverted too in one's theme?	[16:05]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027182 << to be clear, nested replies still work (i tested these after seeing that some blogs, including ossasepia, utilize them). it's just that the textarea for entering the reply won't be placed under the comment that is being replied to	[16:06]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:10:08 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027177 - ah, this rings a bell and I'll need to have a look because iirc I have one level nested replies (though not sure it has anything to do with the theme as such, hm)	[16:06]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-fud-the-king-of-the-hill-and-so-on/ << Trilema -- The FUD, the king of the hill and... so on	[16:57]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027211 - ah, got it now; shouldn't be a problem.	[21:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-18 16:06:37 (#ossasepia) billymg: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027182 << to be clear, nested replies still work (i tested these after seeing that some blogs, including ossasepia, utilize them). it's just that the textarea for entering the reply won't be placed under the comment that is being replied to	[21:28]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/19/after-the-rain/ << Ossa Sepia -- After the Rain	[12:40]
diana_coman:	ossabot is fully retired, don't expect it back (nor its site, nor the ftp, nor anything from the whole pile of resources of all sorts that are finally freed up for more productive use); archives are and will remain at http://ossasepia.com/raw-logs-and-archives/ ; real-time and past logs are and will remain permanent at http://ossasepia.com/category/logs/	[15:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-story-of-kitty-and-her-kitten/ << Trilema -- The story of Kitty and her kitten	[17:02]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026261 - bvt, in potentially interesting follow ups on this, on one hand it turned out that at least in some cases the "reverted file" was not even desirable ie an artefact of other trimmings-on-the-large-codebase but on the other hand I did end up having to pretty much script the "point out the exact offending file, stupid" part,	[20:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-23 20:40:06 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: and yeah, comment gets one out of it - but the main issue was figuring out where the exact revert was	[20:28]
diana_coman:	even if a quick and dirty/partial piped cmd line sort of thing.	[20:28]
diana_coman:	the conclusion from use is therefore that this sort of "loop" may or may not be fine, up to operator to decide on a case by case basis; but there has to be a better way to point to the actual problem, even if it ends up perhaps as a separate command or even outside v.sh entirely.	[20:30]
whaack:	diana_coman: if you're around today I'd like to discuss my desire to become active in YH again.	[17:16]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/a-story-of-candy-but-with-an-eye-rather-than-a-why/ << Trilema -- A story of candy, but with an eye rather than a why.	[19:31]
diana_coman:	whaack - I'm around as usual, sure; what's on your mind?	[21:04]
whaack:	diana_coman: There's a lot on my mind but essentially I badly want to go back to making an effort to make "the right move at every juncture." I also miss engaging with the people in here and having a project to work on.	[21:15]
diana_coman:	whaack - so what's stopping you? not like I hold anyone back from engaging or contributing, am I.	[21:16]
whaack:	diana_coman: Only "my own worst enemy" lol	[21:17]
diana_coman:	how's that building otc network going?	[21:18]
whaack:	diana_coman: it's not going, I've really been up to ~nothing except learning some flashy flamenco hand movements and scales	[21:19]
whaack:	i'm working on an article right now on muscle control/isolation so I can at least publish something interesting i've learned.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	whaack - did you keep up that daily guitar practice, only not writing the logs up or not publishing them or what?	[21:23]
whaack:	diana_coman: My blog is only missing 5 practice logs, but it's been 17 days. I've been practicing but I stopped keeping the practices structured.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	didn't the structure help or why?	[21:26]
whaack:	the structure helped tremendously. stopping the organized practices was some form of militant stupidity or something, idk	[21:28]
whaack:	the other concept that I learned from trilema/younghands - always looking for the upstream problems, has helped a lot as well	[21:29]
diana_coman:	I bet it did, lol	[21:29]
whaack:	for example, I learned I needed to isolate control of my muscles, so I thought "hm - what is the real problem with my technqiue. It's not that I can't make this or that sound. That is a symptom. THe problem is I don't know how to properly control my muscles" so then I read a book about muscle control, unrelated to playing music,	[21:30]
diana_coman:	that sounds like looking for causes and closer to root	[21:31]
whaack:	diana_coman: anyways I've also been thinking about something you said I never responded to which was basically that there's no reason to have a distinction between fun & what one needs to do	[21:33]
diana_coman:	aha; what came out of that thinking then?	[21:35]
whaack:	I remember reading a time ago some book or article (i forget the source) that had this quote ~ "a gentleman will pay for the privilege to be in command a horse drawn chariot. but if instead the gentleman is paid to do the same he'll consider it work and won't want to do it."	[21:37]
whaack:	And I remember when I read I thought to myself "yes, I am like that too."	[21:39]
diana_coman:	lol, what, having all the troubles with none the means?	[21:40]
diana_coman:	sure, I know the sort of thing you mean - in plain terms it's called tripping over yourself, really.	[21:42]
whaack:	But thinking on what you said and reflecting on how I feel now and how I felt when I was more active in yh I think that the mentality of "doing other things than what needs to be done because they're more fun or because what needs to be done is categorized as 'work' and 'work'='bad'" is again militant stupidity	[21:42]
whaack:	diana_coman: what do you mean by all the troubles with none the means?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	all the troubles of late-time/already-degenerate "gentlemen" (because the term like that without clear anchoring in time means ~nothing at all)	[21:44]
diana_coman:	with none of their means to afford them, at least	[21:44]
diana_coman:	you know, by that standard Oscar Wilde was very much the gentleman, I suppose he could /did even outdo them since he set his mind to it; onth I doubt e.g. Sir Burton would have given him much "gentleman".	[21:46]
diana_coman:	and that keeping it roughly similar time and space, at least	[21:47]
whaack:	I think the purpose of the word gentlemen in that (mis)quote is that the person can afford to not be paid. I am not connecting myself w/ someone in that position, I am only connecting with "label something as work, and stupid me tries to avoid it"	[21:49]
diana_coman:	whaack - anyway, getting back to present day and yourself: yes, it's quite militant stupidity and at any rate it's certainly not helping you any.	[21:49]
diana_coman:	ah, then it was too lofty a quote, lol; there's more there than just "work" but anyways, no need to fully go that rabbit hole right now, let it be a detour for another time perhaps.	[21:50]
whaack:	right, and to be clear as to why I think it's militant stupidity - it is that not only do I fall behind in personal development, productivity, $$, whatever - I also am having less fun	[21:50]
diana_coman:	good that you are honest enough to admit it.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	whaack - is there something specific you are interested in atm?	[21:52]
whaack:	diana_coman: tbh nothing jumps to mind	[21:54]
whaack:	I've been thinking though that I need to write a post-mortem for TheFleet, going over why that project failed	[21:55]
diana_coman:	whaack - for how long have you been thinking that you need to etc?	[21:56]
whaack:	since about the time I started the guitar practice logs	[21:56]
diana_coman:	whaack - why didn't you just do it?	[21:57]
diana_coman:	you know, if you think that I need to read that or it "has to be done" or something of the sort - the answer is no, on both counts.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	whaack - do you know why and how it failed?	[21:59]
whaack:	no, it was for myself not for you	[21:59]
whaack:	and it was to answer that question of "how and why it failed" . I am not sure I know the answer.	[22:00]
whaack:	I'm not sure why I didn't reengage but I think it was because I was afraid that I would fade away again, and I still have that concern although only slightly really	[22:02]
diana_coman:	what can I say; on the face of it, a post-mortem sounds sensible indeed, except there's no reason why it couldn't have been done by now if it was indeed pressing and therefore the conclusion is that it's not pressing, so it can wait as it already did, not much difference either way.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	whaack - did you figure out why the fade away in the first place?	[22:04]
whaack:	diana_coman: yes, related to the "living warning," if you will	[22:07]
diana_coman:	whaack - well, pick yourself a deadline for that post-mortem if you actually want to do it and do it; or let me know if you don't want all that much to do it; either way we'll see from there.	[22:11]
whaack:	diana_coman: alright. I'll have it done before Thursday the 25th of June.	[22:16]
diana_coman:	sounds good.	[22:17]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6172020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/17/2020	[05:14]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6182020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/18/2020	[05:19]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6192020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/19/2020	[05:23]
whaack:	billymg: What are the characters for the codeblocks opening and codeblocks closing now? I don't see them in http://billymg.com/2020/05/updated-vpatch-add-embeddable-codeblocks-and-the-server-side-select-mechanism/ . The characters in http://billymg.com/2020/04/updated-patch-code-embed-plugin-for-mp-wp/ didn't work. Consequently the codeblock in my article	[20:33]
whaack:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/02/ircbot-no-suicide-on-reconnect/ is no longer rendering correctly.	[20:33]
whaack:	billymg: I figured it out. The regex was here http://billymg.com/2020/05/updated-vpatch-add-embeddable-codeblocks-and-the-server-side-select-mechanism/#S1-L223 . But I have not got the color highlighting yet	[20:38]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/all-is-old-and-all-is-new << The Tar Pit -- All is old and all is new...	[21:27]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6202020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/20/2020	[04:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'd like to take a break from the reviews because yeah, haven't found how to - or perhaps more like the motivation to - make them more useful to me and less of an external chore where I go through the motions with seemingly ever less enthusiasm. I understand the point of them is not just to say "oh look I did plenty of stuff" - after all I've been doing that since as long as I can	[08:13]
jfw:	remember - but to change oneself; and that sort of change hurts; and that I'll have to want it badly enough and find ways that work for me to get there.	[08:13]
jfw:	And indeed I've made many a painful change before too so... not giving up there at all.	[08:16]
jfw:	(The change here being, basically, becoming the master of my own time.)	[08:25]
jfw:	In other news, I've been watering the v.pl garden; fixes for quite a few issues coming very soon.	[08:27]
diana_coman:	jfw ok, sounds fine to me.	[09:40]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/unnecessary-muscle-binding-the-great-impediment-to-musical-and-athletic-performance/ << whaack -- Unnecessary Muscle Binding - The Great Impediment To Musical and Athletic Performance	[16:23]
billymg:	whaack: `[diff[ ... ]]` for diff syntax highlighting, `[plaintext[ ... ]]` (or anything else, since it'll be the default when there is no match) for no highlighting	[17:41]
billymg:	whaack: i also wanted to ask, back when you were building your desktop, did you end up finding any good parts stores anywhere in the country? (i.e. better than just using lulazon and eating the extra shipping/tax cost)	[17:45]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/22/eulora-client-graphics-main-types-and-formats/ << Ossa Sepia -- Eulora Client Graphics: Main Types and Formats	[18:11]
whaack:	billymg: thanks. The best store I found here through hanbot's recommendation was https://www.cococo.co.cr/ - but their supplies are limited. I wound up getting most of my parts through https://www.pcgamingcr.com/ but I had a ton of trouble with them. (They scammed me by selling used parts.)	[18:23]
billymg:	whaack: sweet, thanks for the info, will check them out	[18:26]
billymg:	whaack: uggh, neither seem to have samsung SSDs, or at least not listed on their websites	[18:34]
whaack:	billymg: yup, I couldn't find those here either :(	[18:38]
whaack:	billymg: anyways iirc cococo keeps an up to date inventory on their website but in general you have to call to figure out what these stores actually have in stock.	[18:44]
billymg:	whaack: gotcha	[18:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm trying for a concise intro/description of V, in the present (post-Republic) context. Does this about capture it: "versioning system that supports owner control of computing by placing primary focus on the change and explicit management of trust through strong cryptography" ?	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw - hm, what do you mean by "of computing" there?	[21:16]
jfw:	well, of the operation of one's own computers	[21:17]
jfw:	possibly a bit circular with "ownership of one's own"...	[21:17]
diana_coman:	it's more that the definition as you gave it doesn't do all that much - though it takes a few readings, hm.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	it's a bit tortured on various fences by the looks of it; for one thing, defining it as a versioning system cuts away an important part - the deployment of software that is usually not all that much the traditional concern of versioning systems	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw - what's the audience you have in mind there or is this blog/generic?	[21:22]
jfw:	it's the blog, yes - and partly for clarifying it for myself, heh.	[21:23]
jfw:	my grasp of what V does for deployment is basically to say that the other tools traditionally used for it aren't necessary	[21:23]
diana_coman:	ahaha, going for once fully-negative-space there (and that getting rid of all the other "tools" is not a tiny thing either at that, but it's more of a consequence than anything else)	[21:24]
diana_coman:	V is a complete solution in that sense, hence "the other tools [...] aren't necessary"	[21:25]
jfw:	(though um, it's still known to lean on 'wget' etc.)	[21:25]
diana_coman:	well, it also still requires an OS!	[21:26]
diana_coman:	anyways, I wouldn't say that "other tools are not necessary" - it's more that the change is so fundamental that previous tools don't fit /don't have a useful place anymore; other tools though are still necessary - only they need to be built	[21:27]
diana_coman:	it changes the whole landscape if you want	[21:27]
diana_coman:	but let's rewind and try to grab it from some more concrete end perhaps	[21:27]
jfw:	alright	[21:28]
diana_coman:	so for one thing, V is not some particular implementation but essentially a paradigm for software	[21:30]
diana_coman:	and software as a whole, not just development, nor even just deployment, it goes all the way to even what software is	[21:31]
diana_coman:	sure, one can use V for some narrow part that they care about and it's true that the first implementation was just that, a very narrow thing in fact, but that doesn't mean much.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	and I suppose that the current state of V-use and development otherwise might give the impression that there isn't anything more to it either, huh	[21:35]
jfw:	I suppose I've tried to understand the species based on observations of what's shared by the known instances	[21:36]
diana_coman:	jfw - you know, I think your attempt and question there hits actually deeper (and well done for it, too) than you intended, lol	[21:37]
jfw:	haha, indeed	[21:37]
diana_coman:	jfw - so where did you start from, anyway? from the current implementations of V, is that what you mean by the instances?	[21:39]
jfw:	right	[21:39]
jfw:	heh, you know the one about the blind men and the elephant?	[21:40]
diana_coman:	that kind of locks you unhelpfully into some rather sterile and narrow mindframe, myeah (and I'll leave the tracing of the root cause there to each log reader)	[21:42]
diana_coman:	jfw - hm? doesn't come to mind, no.	[21:42]
jfw:	apparently a story that exists in many versions, but basically each man feels a different part of the elephant and extrapolates a completely different (& quite incomplete) picture of what an elephant is.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	ah, the fable, yes	[21:45]
diana_coman:	I can see the similarity, indeed	[21:46]
jfw:	https://allpoetry.com/The-Blind-Man-And-The-Elephant - possibly the main English version.	[21:47]
jfw:	ponders how to "see true v-elephant with mind's eye"	[21:49]
diana_coman:	the thing is, V is not just a different type of versioning system - a bit like a car is not just a faster cart, hm	[21:49]
diana_coman:	jfw - well, better start from the beginning as it were which indeed is not whatever implementation, no matter what claims are made otherwise; e.g. [http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory/?b=change&e=satellites#select][the change similar to that introduced by the understanding and controlling movement in terms of mass, impulse and energy, such as it occurs in the launching of	[21:51]
diana_coman:	satellites]	[21:51]
diana_coman:	damn, it still broke the link, didn't it	[21:52]
jfw:	space between the words in the text, yeah	[21:52]
diana_coman:	jfw - my, yrc can't recall previous line??	[21:53]
jfw:	nope :/	[21:53]
diana_coman:	jfw - why, why, why whyyyyyy	[21:54]
diana_coman:	the change similar to that introduced by the understanding and controlling movement in terms of mass, impulse and energy, such as it occurs in the launching of satellites	[21:54]
jfw:	because it's young still	[21:55]
diana_coman:	so based on the above, you can start perhaps with a broad definition of V as a new way of understanding software - and therefore, as a consequence of this deeper and more precise understanding, the resulting more efficient way of talking about software, developing (version controlling being only one part of that developing) software, deploying software, maintaining software and so on.	[21:56]
diana_coman:	jfw - well, yrc may be young and have all the time ahead of it indeed but what can I say, I'm getting older day by day here so pleaaaase: can haz tab-completion and last-line recall?	[21:57]
jfw:	yes; and kill/yank (cut/paste) for the input is needed too.	[21:59]
jfw:	"manage his investment of trust at all junctures so that he is never required to implicitly trust either an unknown code author, or a code snippet of unknown provenance." - hey I pretty much got that part, right?	[22:01]
diana_coman:	with that broad definition at hand to help you avoid the pitfalls of stupid compartmentalizing, narrow focus, childish pick-and-choose and other numerous afflictions of the "software industry/engineering", the next step is to review the stated principles at the root of it all:	[22:02]
jfw:	(but yes, paradigm rather than particular set of scripts was missing.)	[22:03]
diana_coman:	namely software being the property of those running it and identity being constructed by others' view, upon a fixed support	[22:03]
diana_coman:	jfw - trust is possibly the skin of that particular elephant and at least the word itself has been repeatedly brandied about for sure	[22:04]
diana_coman:	it might have been bandied, but I do like brandied better.	[22:06]
jfw:	mmm, brandytrust!	[22:07]
diana_coman:	quite, it can produce... intoxication!	[22:07]
jfw:	especially hazardous when pregnant with concepts & definitions	[22:08]
diana_coman:	ahahah, indeed!	[22:09]
diana_coman:	looking back at your original definition, I'm afraid there isn't much of it left though.	[22:10]
diana_coman:	making a first attempt at tightening up that previous definition:	[22:25]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 21:56:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: so based on the above, you can start perhaps with a broad definition of V as a new way of understanding software - and therefore, as a consequence of this deeper and more precise understanding, the resulting more efficient way of talking about software, developing (version controlling being only one part of that developing) software, deploying software, maintaining software and so on.	[22:25]
diana_coman:	V is a new conceptual framework for software, emerging from a better understanding of what software is and providing as main benefits the means for explicit, verifiable enforcement of software ownership by users as well as the correct incentives and supporting concepts for a qualitative jump in the way software is developed, deployed, maintained and evolved.	[22:25]
diana_coman:	jfw - does the above sound like the sort of concise definition you were looking for?	[22:25]
diana_coman:	it aims for a more practical intro so it necessarily leaves some stuff out/picks some to highlight.	[22:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: it's the sort of definition, yes - I don't know that I'll use it here directly though because if I'm to give a definition I'd want it to be one I fully understand myself (i.e. to have that new understanding of software & be able to explain why it's better)	[22:33]
jfw:	I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[22:34]
diana_coman:	jfw - ah, no need to use it directly anywhere, lol; and anyways, if not clear, ask further tomorrow or whenever, sure.	[22:36]
jfw:	yep, & thanks for the pointers.	[22:36]
diana_coman:	yw	[22:36]
diana_coman:	such excellent questions are a pleasure to answer, so...keep asking them!	[22:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6212020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/21/2020	[09:13]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6222020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/22/2020	[09:17]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6232020/ << Bimbo Club -- Work Report - 6/23/2020	[09:24]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/of-wants-and-wanting-and-of-your-daughter/ << Trilema -- Of wants, and wanting, and of your daughter.	[18:07]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/tuesday-after-christmas/ << Trilema -- Tuesday after Christmas	[23:24]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-fud-the-king-of-the-hill-and-so-on/ << Trilema -- The FUD, the king of the hill and... so on	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-story-of-kitty-and-her-kitten/ << Trilema -- The story of Kitty and her kitten	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/a-story-of-candy-but-with-an-eye-rather-than-a-why/ << Trilema -- A story of candy, but with an eye rather than a why.	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/of-wants-and-wanting-and-of-your-daughter/ << Trilema -- Of wants, and wanting, and of your daughter.	[23:25]
Day changed to 2020-06-25
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/thefleet-post-mortem/ << whaack -- TheFleet Post-Mortem	[05:34]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/jojo-rabbit/ << Trilema -- Jojo Rabbit	[07:06]
diana_coman:	hm, did feedbot hiccup on trilemas?	[09:12]
diana_coman:	jfw - out of curiosity really, what happened in the end with that present article of two days ago?	[10:29]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 22:34:01 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[10:29]
diana_coman:	by now I admit I find this seemingly very common process quite fascinating - it's more like the undoing of things than their doing, as they all seem to start with everything in place and then gradually fade away until there's either nothing to be seen or (in the best cases, I suppose) it all morphed into something else, sometime else, somewhere else, huh.	[10:32]
diana_coman:	it's like the very anchoring in concrete hurts and repels, there's just no keeping to it.	[10:33]
whaack:	diana_coman: I'm starting off today summarizing your work that's published on your blog from Jan - July, I want to make sure that is an exercise you actually recommend rather than one you suggest as a form of rhetoric to give a scope of the disparity between productivity.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	whaack - do you consider the trouble/lack of productivity on that irc project was due to being "busy" with the other tasks you listed there?	[17:32]
diana_coman:	(aka making your computer and so on)	[17:32]
whaack:	diana_coman: no, it was most likely orthogonal problems that slowed down everything that I was "bussied with"	[17:33]
diana_coman:	so then don't use that "bussied with" pretense at all, it's not helping you	[17:34]
diana_coman:	re exercise, only you can tell really - does actually seeing concrete disparity work for you as motivation to improve?	[17:34]
whaack:	diana_coman: I think it may serve as motiviation, in any case it's interesting reading through so I wouldn't mind the exercise.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	so then why do you need any confirmation/whatever, if you want to do it then...do it	[17:36]
diana_coman:	if you don't want to do it, then...don't do it	[17:36]
diana_coman:	understand that there's no external gain to it either way, ie either you gain from doing it (hence, whether I recommend it or not, whether it comes with any stamps of approval or not) or you do not gain anything worth the time, by definition.	[17:37]
whaack:	diana_coman: I don't understand that last point. I gather that doing what you want is the right way to go about things but want must == need.	[17:40]
diana_coman:	whaack - so, do you need it then? lolz	[17:42]
diana_coman:	whaack - was you earlier question a way of asking me whether I think you need that exercise?	[17:43]
diana_coman:	your*	[17:44]
whaack:	diana_coman: yes	[17:44]
whaack:	diana_coman: and lol, i guess i should s/want/need throughout my head	[17:46]
diana_coman:	well then, the answer is not very helpful: I don't know if you need it or not and I can't know it because it depends what you make out of it; IF you do it properly and use it to motivate yourself, it will be useful; if not, it won't; and sure, there are other ways to motivate yourself that might work, but I don't have the sort of control needed to ensure that you do exactly what it means so that	[17:46]
diana_coman:	it works.	[17:46]
diana_coman:	based on previous experience, I can tell you upfront that you certainly can make it useless, as well as you can make it useful; is that any help?	[17:47]
whaack:	diana_coman: Yes I think so. I'll play it safe by doing a summary of 3 months instead of 6.	[17:48]
diana_coman:	do set some timeframe too, so it doesn't end up some month-long project or something; arguably the time is more important than how long you cover; in the end set some time for it and then cover as much as it fits or until it stops being interesting since that would normally mean you are not gaining anything further from it.	[17:50]
whaack:	diana_coman: okay I'll come up with the timeframe and go as far as I can within the window instead then.	[17:52]
diana_coman:	I'm even curious what you end up with.	[17:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: not sure, it wasn't even supposed to be a challenging article or anything. I sat down a couple times, "just need to write this already", ended up doing anything else.	[21:30]
jfw:	do you mean the 'seemingly very common process' in regards to me or something more general?	[21:31]
jfw:	some kinda repulsion to anchoring, could be	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw - no, not just you, hence the "very common" exactly.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	repulsion to reality more than the anchoring itself, lol.	[21:32]
jfw:	ah. and for the most part reality doesn't even seem that bad	[21:34]
diana_coman:	normally the "ended up doing anything else" would point to some issue/trouble with either what remains doing (e.g. something unclear/don't know how to handle this) or with some perceived result/outcome (what if...)	[21:34]
diana_coman:	but well, the normal doesn't really run into this with such frequency so ...	[21:35]
diana_coman:	oh, it clearly has nothing to do with bad/good, no	[21:35]
diana_coman:	at most, at a guess, with constraints/limits really	[21:36]
diana_coman:	in other words, with lack of experience with it/practice at it.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	or with "finality" of it; basically for as long as it isn't finished/published/whatever, it doesn't yet exist, hence ...anything can be/goes, the lie to self that points out only advantages and no drawbacks ever can live and thrive.	[21:38]
diana_coman:	perhaps even just another facet of not being quite fully comfortable with negative numbers, heh.	[21:41]
jfw:	ha, negative numbers aren't real! when did anyone ever see a negative number of apples?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	when they got stolen!	[21:43]
diana_coman:	lol	[21:43]
diana_coman:	tbh looking all the way back, the ~only time when I recall that sort of difficulty-in-doing-much-at-all, it was the unavoidable result of actually trying to cater to and fit (probably more than anyone else ever expected, too) a ton of conflicting stupid from outside really.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	because blockage of the stalling type in the end is quite that: won't make an explicit choice because of some conflicting constraints that are not sorted out themselves.	[21:56]
jfw:	I suppose then one needs to figure out what those constraints are?	[21:59]
diana_coman:	in other unsurprising empirical results, it turns out that Google claims to "not found" anything for "fashionable hopefuls" even when asked specifically to search on ossasepia.com ; the search box on my blog unsurprisingly finds it.	[21:59]
diana_coman:	jfw - one needs to figure out why are they avoiding doing whatever it is.	[22:01]
diana_coman:	and you know, esp when this sort of avoidance happens so frequently, it's kind of mind boggling just how it's still such an "unknown" really, dunno	[22:02]
diana_coman:	note though that if anything, it seems to only grow, ie the more it's paid attention to/gets its way, the more it seems to ...extend really; at least this is how it looks from here (and again, no, not at all just you).	[22:04]
diana_coman:	whatever it is, it's apparently very scary or something.	[22:05]
diana_coman:	(sure, it might be faster and easier to just do it and let it figure itself out but apparently that's too difficult too).	[22:06]
diana_coman:	jfw - getting back specifically to your v-article and factoring in what I know of you otherwise, that specific one might simply be a case of perfectionism again ie despite your analytical decision that you don't need the full definition and thorough understanding of the v-elephant, the less-analytical-but-much-more-powerful-at-stalling part does consider it needs exactly that before moving it any	[22:09]
diana_coman:	further.	[22:09]
jfw:	haha, yes I think so; indeed found myself "need to reread the log / trilemas"	[22:11]
diana_coman:	heh, so there, basically not all of you got or paid any attention to that memo that present article can make do without it, cut out some of the internal bureaucracy or something!	[22:15]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 22:34:01 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[22:15]
jfw:	I'll put out a memo on it.	[22:23]
jfw:	ty.	[22:23]
Day changed to 2020-06-26
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020	[15:37]
diana_coman:	sonofawitch got a small update, do ping me if it misbehaves.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	there's now a direct link for the start of logs for today e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#2020-06-26 ; sonofawitch should add those from now on, directly when the day changes; unlike old logger though, there will be no spurious links/dates ie if there's no line on that date, there's no link either, just to fill up the space or something.	[16:30]
Day changed to 2020-06-27
diana_coman:	test line	[00:03]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/eulora-logs-for-jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia -- #eulora Logs for Jun 2020	[00:14]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/fun-together/ << Trilema -- Fun, together	[08:22]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/temporary-ornithology/ << Trilema -- Temporary ornithology	[18:06]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/ << Fixpoint -- A bevy of fixes for V in Perl	[23:53]
Day changed to 2020-06-28
diana_coman:	jfw - the article ^ turned out a very nice read, too!	[10:00]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-lulz-of-all-time-today-as-each-day/ << Trilema -- The lulz of all time, today as each day	[17:39]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/28/eulora-client-data-hierarchy-finally-getting-there/ << Ossa Sepia -- Eulora Client Data Hierarchy - Finally Getting There!	[18:02]
billymg:	jfw: i haven't tried it out yet but thank god for this: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/?b=can%20now&e=be%20spelled%20as#select	[20:51]
billymg:	been wanting that ever since i started using V	[20:51]
diana_coman:	billymg - bvt's v.sh works with the full patch path too, way more practical indeed.	[20:58]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, i was not aware of that	[20:58]
diana_coman:	tbh v.sh is now quite a pleasure to use; but it's true that there is the GNAT dependency that is huge otherwise ie I can see jfw's point that there's a need for a "slimmer" V implementation too, for setups where GNAT is just not needed	[20:59]
Day changed to 2020-06-29
jfw:	thank ye diana_coman & billymg.	[03:28]
jfw:	in baby steps towards a V that scans the world for pieces to assemble, my reference code shelf is now indexed by (name, size, hash), with the generating script alongside for who wants to publish	[03:43]
jfw:	likewise.	[03:43]
jfw:	(As seen before.)	[03:49]
diana_coman:	trinque - did I miss somehow the invoice for deedbot's services?	[09:49]
diana_coman:	spyked - as I have been using feedbot for quite a while and finding it very useful indeed, I would pay for it as a service too.	[09:54]
diana_coman:	jfw - I left a comment yesterday on your blog and it seems it's in modq/spam.	[09:55]
diana_coman:	jfw - that manifest.keccak looks good.	[10:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: a comment besides this one?	[18:49]
diana_coman:	jfw - that one, none other.	[21:02]
diana_coman:	whaack - how's it going ?	[21:02]
diana_coman:	dorion - what happened to you? did that gbw article get stuck on something (what)?	[21:03]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia new_yh\|81	[21:28]
deedbot:	new_yh\|81 voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:28]
diana_coman:	hello new_yh\|81	[21:28]
Day changed to 2020-06-30
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/contrary-to-convenient-fiction-they-really-havent-changed-much-have-they/ << Trilema -- Contrary to convenient fiction, they really haven't changed much, have they	[00:20]
whaack:	diana_coman: The past few days I've been working on a side project - http://ztkfg.com/2018/10/zylon-game-design/ . I've learned a tad about threading in python and have reviewed some stuff I learned about communication over the net with sockets. Otherwise I've been taking care of some personal matters. After pondering about what I may want - er need - to do next, setting up a block explorer to	[00:36]
whaack:	replace mimisbrunnr seems like a good goal. As of now I have not started nor even planned my hours for the ossasepia review.	[00:36]
diana_coman:	whaack - a block explorer sounds like a good idea to me.	[09:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/pesk-u-in-all-timelines-and-dimensions/ << Trilema -- Pesk-u, in all timelines, and dimensions!	[17:53]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-3-diferencias-entre-palabras-agudas-llanas-y-esdrujulas/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 3 - Diferencias Entre Palabras Agudas, Llanas, y Esdrjulas	[20:41]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-5/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 5	[20:44]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-4/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 4	[20:44]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-6/ << whaack -- Spanish Study Log 6	[20:48]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-practice-log-7-silabas/ << whaack -- Spanish Practice Log 7 - Slabas	[20:52]
diana_coman:	whaack - are you stress-testing feedbot with all the logs in one go? lol; might want to add maybe the dates in the text or somewhere since it's not clear from the publishing date otherwise.	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-10-potential-tremolo-pieces/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 10 - Potential Tremolo Pieces	[21:03]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-12-interval-notes/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 12 - Interval Notes	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-13/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 13	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-11-gypsy-jazz-links/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 11 - Gypsy Jazz Links	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-14/ << whaack -- Guitar Practice Log 14	[21:11]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-jun-2020/#1027465 - the gbw article went through a couple more drafts than I had expected. mainly surrounding how to format the article since similar to the Gales LInux BUILD document, a large percentage of the text is commands to issue.	[21:24]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-29 21:03:45 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion - what happened to you? did that gbw article get stuck on something (what)?	[21:24]
dorion:	I also de-prioritized it for a time. At present there's just the transaction signing section to finish up.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	dorion - on one hand it's tempting to ask if billymg's code vpatch/update to mpwp doesn't help with that formatting issue; on the other hand, wouldn't want a fullblown mpwp update to delay that article even further, lol.	[21:28]
dorion:	yeah, I've delayed it long enough.	[21:34]
jfw:	dorion: did you manage to get a transaction signed & confirmed with it (if that's not too much of a spoiler)?	[21:36]
diana_coman:	apparently your writing speed needs to increase significantly to keep up with the speed of re-prioritizing, lol.	[21:37]
dorion:	jfw not yet.	[21:38]
jfw:	aw. well then the article can look at how far you got / what difficulties rather than having to wait, right?	[21:38]
dorion:	diana_coman verily.	[21:38]
dorion:	jfw that it can, though I'm close.	[21:39]
diana_coman:	maybe keep in mind jfw's sensible suggestion if next re-prioritizing strikes closer than that close.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	basically better publish the unfinished than nothing at all, because the effort put into it is still sunk.	[21:43]
dorion:	diana_coman ok.	[21:44]
jfw:	whaack: re block explorer, you may find my recent V & TRB work of interest, the raw transactions patch especially; and if python is tolerable, the gbw-node code could be a good reference too	[21:55]
whaack:	diana_coman: aha, I just had a backlog to upload. I didn't put dates on a few of the study/practice notes... so I don't actually know which date they're on. Going forward I'll make sure to date them, and I'll consider putting the dates in the article titles.	[23:06]
whaack:	jfw: Alright, I'm going to set some time today (now) to scope out what needs to be done to make a block explorer, and I'll put your recent work on the top of the reading list.	[23:07]

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