| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you see, it *already* helped, as you found out what a summary should be, at the very least! | [05:17] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you are on the right track there but you need to go in more detail too. | [05:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what is a review? | [05:18] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re "what is a summary", think of it this way: 1. any piece of text is an investigation of a topic (if it's not this, then it's not really text, merely noise) | [09:48] |
| diana_coman: | 2. as any investigation, it has to look at the chosen topic from some perspective(s) | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | 3. it has some scope (ie what it covers and what it doesn't cover) and some chosen level of detail | [09:50] |
| diana_coman: | 4. the investigation itself has some antecedents, it can make some assumptions (ideally stated), it can reference other things | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | but in any case, it flows from some starting point to some conclusion, ideally allowing the reader to follow the newly made bridge/path | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | as a reader, your duty is to take in and evaluate the path itself while being also aware of what it leaves out/avoids/doesn't take into account | [09:54] |
| diana_coman: | now with all the above on the table, making a summary reduces to compressing this same path so that instead of 100 steps, it takes only 50 or 25 to get from same starting point to same ending and without missing any of the crucial points along the way | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | conversely, expanding a text would mean taking smaller steps on that same road, stopping as it were to consider matters along the way in more detail | [09:56] |
| diana_coman: | so text, summary and expansion share a starting point (with all its characteristics so more like a starting *place*), a chosen path (out of all possible ones) and a conclusion but they differ in how quickly one travels from A to B ie how much non-crucial detail is present | [09:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there are texts so concise that you can't really summarise them any further e.g. the famous short story "For sale: baby shoes, never worn" | [10:01] |
| diana_coman: | but at any rate and at all times, writing a good summary requires that you first fully grasp not only what are the starting and ending points + what is said in between but also what is crucial for the argument and what not. | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | furthermore, a chosen number of words total works a bit like "zoom level" when you take a photograph really: you should be able to present the same argument at different levels of detail. | [10:05] |
| diana_coman: | when/if you go at it only locally e.g. "summarizing each paragraph", you are effectively focusing on the proverbial trees instead of the forest and for one thing the result is at best unbalanced (usually disjointed as is the case with your original summary) | [10:08] |
| diana_coman: | for the other thing, such local-summary approach is extremely limiting; in some sense it's falling for local minima/maxima instead of overall minima/maxima. | [10:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what is the role of paragraphs in a text? | [10:16] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I probably don't actually know what a review is, but I have it in my head as something like a summary but with judgement. | [10:30] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: a review is an assessment really so you effectively compare some instance of a thing (your summary) to the definition (what a summary should be) and highlight what/where it fits & what/where it fails short + why/in what way. | [10:33] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I never clearly understood the role of paragraphs in a text. They kind of seem arbitrary to me. | [10:35] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: aha, it ties in with wtf are they teaching in school really; after role of punctuation, the very next step is role of paragraphs | [10:36] |
| thimbronion: | Obviously reading a wall of text without paragraph sucks. | [10:36] |
| diana_coman: | a paragraph is meant to deal with ONE idea | [10:37] |
| diana_coman: | basically when you move on/introduce another idea (note that this can be on different levels too), you start a new paragraph | [10:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: in this sense an initial summary of anything can be made simply by writing ONE single sentence for each paragraph in the original text ie writing down that one idea of each paragraph | [10:38] |
| diana_coman: | obviously, if the original writer can write sanely | [10:38] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Oct-2019#1004626 << noticing what is left out or avoided has always been a problem for me. | [10:40] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-05 09:54:22 diana_coman: as a reader, your duty is to take in and evaluate the path itself while being also aware of what it leaves out/avoids/doesn't take into account | [10:40] |
| diana_coman: | well, the negative spaces, the things around; but I can see why it might be a problem for you as you focus on the details and therefore don't quite get to view the whole -> can't see what's missing, ofc. Anyways, one step at a time, you'll get there, once you can at least see & summarise clearly what IS said | [10:42] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I had a thought re: the IRC Takeover. I wonder how amenable some admins might be to selling their irc servers? In otherwords, why not buy in? The downside is that you get a server with who knows what on it. The upside is you get: 1. Working, long standing configuratin 2. Relationship with hosting provider with a history of supporting IRC. | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the only way you would get what you say is if you talked to the admin, got him to register a key with deedbot and basically brought him into the republic | [10:53] |
| diana_coman: | otherwise what you are buying is a piece of metal and someone else's hard-to-even-evaluate-properly commitments | [10:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: talking to existing admins can be a good idea but only along the lines above ie wtf are you doing worshipping the idiots people, instead of joining the republic; fwiw I think it might be a harder sell because you effectively go empty-handed | [10:56] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: hm yeah. wth good does some server in germany do me if I can't freaking replace the 10 year old hdd. | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: it *may* be worth it to talk to them and see if any of them are sane, sure; but don't expect too much and especially don't do this *instead* of talking to the network admins themselves | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: not only that but also wth good does to you some working server if you have no idea how to fix/wtf even is wrong really it when it stops working | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | it's "working" only in the magical sense really | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: what's still bothering/troubling you re contacting the irc network admins already? | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re your question on http://thewhet.net/2013/09/your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/comment-page-1/#comment-55392 - you are confusing the contexts there (or not really making a proper separation at all); read http://ossasepia.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ and see if that answers it for you; if it doesn't, ask me again. | [11:03] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: 1. I don't want to mess things up by saying the wrong thing. 2. I am persuaded that they're going to say, "Didn't you read the link application? Fill it out and send to black hole email address and stop bothering us." | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: 1. don't say the wrong thing, no; note that the "wrong thing" is something other than what was discussed e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Oct-2019#1004582 | [11:10] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-04 12:59:53 diana_coman: thimbronion: read it now; gives the full context to my summary of the position here, doesn't it? | [11:10] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: 2. realise that there isn't a direct link between this and 1; | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you do *not* care about what "they are going to say" | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you should focus on your message; let *them* figure out what to say and if they come up with nonsense, that's their shame and loss, you'll write the blog post with it and so it stays | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | but the important part is to be very clear as to what you say; | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ignore them entirely for a bit; are you clear & sure of what you are offering there & what you want from them? | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: think of it this way: if I go to a cow, tell it something and it moos back, do you think it mood because I told it "the wrong thing"? | [11:14] |
| thimbronion: | I am offering to save their network from a slow death by bringing them into the republic, which, though small, is growing, while they are shrinking bit by bit. And if they believe in why they founded their network (to talk about whatever the fuck the want without being bothered) then obviously they have to let us join their network. | [11:15] |
| diana_coman: | "if only you'd told the cow how beautiful it is, it would have answered with a gracious thank you" or what. | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there is no "let us", no | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | you need to work a bit more on your own position there | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | needs to go afk for a bit, will bbl | [11:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: did you read the log of the freenode-idiocy re won't federate ? | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | it was in eulora chan and linked from MP's comment | [13:05] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I was going to ask for that | [13:07] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/eulora/2017-10-01#964962 | [13:08] |
| baitbot: | (eulora) 2017-10-01 mircea_popescu: hello kline | [13:08] |
| snsabot: | (eulora) 2017-10-01 mircea_popescu: hello kline | [13:09] |
| diana_coman: | there is a bit earlier from the #freenode channel but the meat is there in #eulora | [13:09] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ty | [13:10] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I can't find the continuation of the hosting thread. It appears they were open to the donation of hardware, but I can't find where it went wrong. Everything seemed to be progressing up through the last line I found from kline. | [13:33] |
| thimbronion: | And holy shit mp was so freaking polite and reasonable. | [13:35] |
| thimbronion: | Reminds me of Caesar's Gallic Wars. | [13:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you have to realise that the breaking point is *never* because "impolite" or "unreasonable" | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | the impolite - if it ever comes to it - is already an effect of some stubborn idiocy manifested by the other party really | [13:46] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: there doesn't seem to be specific log, here's what MP said: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-05#1940684 | [13:52] |
| ossabot: | (trilema) 2019-10-05 mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i offered them a server back in 2011 ; and then throughout cca 2014. they never took me up on it, and eventually sold out to usg agency | [13:52] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: So it appears in this case they didn't even bother to reject, just left on read. | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you can be as polite or impolite as you want really; and you can even make concessions as you think appropriate, *except* on the important parts | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | that's after all the whole diplomacy thing | [13:54] |
| diana_coman: | but that's why I say that you need first 1. to be clear in your own mind re what is important and why 2. to know exactly your position and don't let yourself swayed by whatever they moo at you | [13:55] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I believe I am clear on the importance and why. As you said I need to work on knowing my position. | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | as an overall, minimum thing: you go in with a statement and a request; they can challenge you on the statement (ie why do you think tmsr is greater than us?) at which point (and only THEN) you answer the challenge | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | they can then/alternatively refuse the request, do whatever, but that is ON THEM | [13:56] |
| diana_coman: | basically stand up tall, you have all tmsr behind you, it's not like you go there man-alone, at all. | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | and you don't need to even find reasons *for them* | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | depending on your own style and inclination, you can decide to humour or not whatever local customs as long as they don't go against fundamentals, sure | [13:58] |
| diana_coman: | you are however effectively extending them a lifeline whether they know it or not, whether they accept it or not, whatever; it is up to them to figure out that it's in their interest to accept; they may fail of that, sure, fine. | [14:01] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [14:01] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: updated review: https://pste.eu/p/XwNN.html. I will be afk for pretty much the rest of the day. | [14:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: use paste.deedbot not whatever random shit | [14:39] |
| diana_coman: | with https too ffs | [14:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. | [14:40] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: also, if you go away dunno, why are you posting it or how is this supposed to work? | [14:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I thought I could read your comments in here and respond later. | [14:41] |
| diana_coman: | mk; paste it. | [14:41] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Rtew | [14:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the problem IS very much with the text itself ; the process aka "how it was produced" is the root cause, sure, but that doesn't mean that you got there a great summary ffs | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | and nobody cares about how "difficult it is for" you, really | [14:49] |
| diana_coman: | that has no place whatsoever in a review of a text; it's also doubly lulzy in the context given the very topic of the summary (the original text you were meant to summarize) | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | ie: your feelings on the matter are irrelevant to the task at hand; | [14:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: you should already have the answers to those questions by now so put them in | [14:51] |
| diana_coman: | and they should probably be at the start really | [14:51] |
| diana_coman: | ie you fucked up the process and that's the root cause, fine; start with noting that and fixing it; then look at the damned summary and see how it stands (rather: fails) on its own, both overall and bit by bit | [14:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: for that matter, if you really want to whine about how difficult it is for you, go ahead and write another post with all the complains on the matter | [14:54] |
| diana_coman: | I'll even read it, sure | [14:54] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: given the time I have left today and tomorrow, and the amount of additional work required on this piece, there is a good chance I'm not going to have something acceptable by EOD Sunday. | [14:56] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: well, you'll publish whatever you have by then. | [15:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: re "from memory" note that there is no hard requirement as such to not look at the original at all when writing the summary or something; the point is that by the time you actually comprehend a text you will inevitably know the main points indeed but other than this banal observation, nobody stops you from consulting the original as much as/whenever needed. | [16:12] |
| diana_coman: | and indeed, especially when you lack experience, you might need to go back and check at least, if nothing else. | [16:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | !Qlater tell whaack Feel free to try giving your picture uploads another shot | [16:33] |
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