| mircea_popescu: | soo in mining news today, mircescu started work on a remarkable grass claim. bundle quality, 195! | [00:03] |
| danielpbarron: | oh good, we're both in the middle of an expensive click then | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | what are you doing ? | [00:04] |
| danielpbarron: | a sacrifice? | [00:04] |
| danielpbarron: | wait aren't you on generator power right now? | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | mmmyeah | [00:05] |
| danielpbarron: | hahaha | [00:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | what can i tell ya! | [00:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | o wow, a pixel! | [00:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | 3 minutes! | [00:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, i estimate the BV of the Rcdg bundle ~2mn | [00:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | at my quality i'm putting in about 4mn here. | [00:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | very fucking curious what i get. | [00:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | but honestly, this craft may well be > 24 hours | [00:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | course this is not fucking reproducible, my silk was vintage, q 206 | [00:09] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess generator power is more reliable than argentine power anyway | [00:09] |
| danielpbarron: | do you have girls on fuel duty? | [00:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | what, it has a 60 gallon tank, it'll take a week to burn that. | [00:11] |
| danielpbarron: | "I need to do an expensive craft, we're switching to generator power for the next couple days" | [00:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [00:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is the slowest bar i've ever watched. | [00:18] |
| danielpbarron: | oo, a chick liked the ad | [00:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | hey cool! | [00:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | how does this work, is it kinda like your page or what ? got a url or anything ? | [00:20] |
| danielpbarron: | >> Chynna N Scott Daily likes Eulorian Elder's link: "Eulora is an MMORPG with a real cash..." | [00:20] |
| danielpbarron: | apparently creating the ad in association with my "Eulorian Elder" page meant that it created a new post to be the ad | [00:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha | [00:21] |
| danielpbarron: | but the post isn't visible on the page | [00:21] |
| danielpbarron: | so it's like.. a secret post only visible as an ad i guess | [00:21] |
| danielpbarron: | let's see if i can link it | [00:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | this thing sounds like it was made by jews. | [00:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | "pay us to advertise our own thing to ourselves!" | [00:22] |
| danielpbarron: | hey cool, it is linkable >> https://archive.is/0LEra | [00:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | logs in to check logs | [00:23] |
| danielpbarron: | and we learn the archive.is has a facebook account named 'Masha' | [00:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [00:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently there's like 10 clicks or such | [00:24] |
| danielpbarron: | oh cool, the activity sheet has some stats on my end too | [00:25] |
| danielpbarron: | .10 spent so far | [00:25] |
| danielpbarron: | it says 13 clicks | [00:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | o wow that's like a quarter a click ? | [00:26] |
| danielpbarron: | yep | [00:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol nuts. | [00:27] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't know what these things should cost. Is that a lot or a little? | [00:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | pretty excessive. | [00:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | obviously, if they result in actual players, that's a different story. but as far as internet clicks are worth on that basis alone, multiple orders of magnitude overpriced. | [00:30] |
| danielpbarron: | most of the clicks were 13 to 17 year olds | [00:31] |
| danielpbarron: | the rest were 18 to 24 year olds | [00:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | 12 pixels out of what appear as 135 over the course of one hour | [00:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | not THAT bad | [00:58] |
| danielpbarron: | my click finished | [00:58] |
| danielpbarron: | and despite using a supplication made by myself, the sacrifice was not in vain | [00:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | hey wd. | [01:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | whatcha get ? | [01:04] |
| danielpbarron: | what i suspect is the farming item | [01:04] |
| danielpbarron: | already had 2 of them, now i have 3 and ready to sacrifice them | [01:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | gl. | [01:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | yup about 1/6 done i'd say. | [02:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | bbl. | [02:12] |
| diana_coman: | <mircea_popescu> diana_coman if i pass you the so will you make me us ? <- in principle yes, but what are the terms you had in mind exactly?? | [02:53] |
| diana_coman: | and more to the point: I'll need the bp too | [03:23] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu do you build at ~200q on basics? | [06:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | i used to build cca 230ish back in nov | [08:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | and aaaaalmost done! | [08:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | in almost 9 hours - a little over 90\% | [08:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm like a boy b4 xmas over here :D | [09:00] |
| Birdman: | :D | [09:09] |
| Birdman: | i wish you the best of luck | [09:10] |
| Birdman: | so one last question of pops, if your over craft value is over .01 btc, is it just a guaranteed pop every time you do it? or is a pop getting an ~extra~ .01 or more of loot out of something? Meaning could you just constantly pop creating things expensive enough to overcraft 1+mn ecu | [09:11] |
| Birdman: | you're paying me to use the cs | [09:22] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, where have you ever seen guarantees around eulora, lol | [09:32] |
| diana_coman: | a pop means getting at least 0.01 value in loot, but you can get that from anything (probabilities change though) | [09:33] |
| diana_coman: | similarly, you can get precisely zero from anything too (again, probabilities vary) | [09:33] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, how's the xmas present then? :D | [09:34] |
| Birdman: | i guess if you can get nothing from an over craft then that answers my question | [09:34] |
| diana_coman: | yep | [09:35] |
| Birdman: | whats the cap on loot if known? | [09:37] |
| diana_coman: | the saying was that there is no cap | [09:37] |
| Birdman: | sweet | [09:49] |
| diana_coman: | fwiw Birdman my experience has always been that usually (as in: every time, few tries) one will basically loot LESS than the value they put in; this however is kind-of-easily offset by one big gain coming out of the blue | [09:49] |
| Birdman: | same | [09:50] |
| Birdman: | throughout building claims and crafts | [09:50] |
| diana_coman: | so then why were you supposing earlier that overcrafting 0.01 btc will give you a guaranteed pop *every time* ? | [09:50] |
| Birdman: | which makes me think it changes probability or something, like you can be 'due' for a bigger loot | [09:50] |
| Birdman: | what i meant by that was is it extra loot that is a pop or any loot .01 or more that registers as a pop | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | any loot 0.01 or more = pop by definition | [09:51] |
| diana_coman: | at least by current definition | [09:52] |
| Birdman: | so the game will give the message even if its less loot than the value you put in | [09:52] |
| diana_coman: | well, the definition of a pop is user-created | [09:53] |
| diana_coman: | a grep in the logs shows a 0.01btc worth of building for Mircea at 14:52 - was this the grass mircea_popescu ? | [09:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i think he means if you put in ingredients of value greater than 0.01 your are more likely than not to get a server wide announcement about it | [09:56] |
| danielpbarron: | and if it's true that this remarkable bundle was worth 4 million, a 0.01 'pop' kinda sucks | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | probabilities change for sure, yes, but he said "guarantedd pop every time you do it" | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | which is quite a different thing | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron> and if it's true that this remarkable bundle was worth 4 million, a 0.01 'pop' kinda sucks <- yes | [09:57] |
| Birdman: | well if you could in theory always get no loot from over crafts then my question was answered | [09:58] |
| danielpbarron: | unless the 0.01 is just on the loot, and the exploration marker contains something worth the bundle | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | hopefully Mircea comes back before the claim vanishes or something, lol | [09:58] |
| danielpbarron: | would be interesting if mircea_popescu keeps the two separate long enough to write down how many of what quality in each | [09:59] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, planning on selling some scones any time soon? | [09:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | woot | [10:00] |
| danielpbarron: | diana_coman, notreally | [10:00] |
| Birdman: | it was a .01 pop | [10:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | so i got 9484 grass q 220 and 38257 grass q 221 | [10:00] |
| diana_coman: | congrats on maitaining q on basics | [10:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently the pops aren't correctly calced, this is worth ~6.3mn base | [10:00] |
| danielpbarron: | aha the "pop" was just the loot | [10:00] |
| Birdman: | yeah was about to say | [10:01] |
| danielpbarron: | the q221 was in the exploration marker and didn't get counted in the announce | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron i think so. will hafta be fixed. i intend to have a month/week/day window top also made, so... | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway - so now! selling 38257 grass q 221 at 150\%. | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | offer only available for today, after which i'll thread it myself | [10:01] |
| danielpbarron: | be careful how you take it out so that you keep your crafter mark | [10:01] |
| diana_coman: | why is the crafter mark important danielpbarron ? | [10:02] |
| danielpbarron: | you don't want credit for your work? | [10:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron they're too big, don't mix. | [10:02] |
| danielpbarron: | oh right, duh | [10:02] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron> you don't want credit for your work? <- sure I want it danielpbarron - hard credit in the form of coins preferable by far though | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | anyway so ~2.3mn earned on this, not that bad | [10:03] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu> offer only available for today, after which i'll thread it myself <- tbh I'd much rather buy the resulting cft | [10:04] |
| diana_coman: | all of it, lol | [10:04] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd buy some thread | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh, i wasn't selling THAT :) | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | ima be doing a little mining of my own! | [10:05] |
| danielpbarron: | where did you get 150\% ? | [10:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | my trusty pen! | [10:05] |
| danielpbarron: | also uses 150\% on most of his basics for sale | [10:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently dpb won huh. | [10:05] |
| danielpbarron: | huh? | [10:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | and now, for the ancient traditional Euloran table walk! | [10:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron i mean, in the end i alligned to you | [10:06] |
| diana_coman: | should then soon update to keep up with the boyz on markup | [10:06] |
| danielpbarron: | lol | [10:06] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu are you in the lead for building? | [10:06] |
| Birdman: | last i thought foxy was making ~q180 on basics | [10:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dun think so | [10:06] |
| Birdman: | and was presumably in the lead | [10:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah but i have more sortage than her | [10:06] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, he has highest sortage because he had it for ages | [10:06] |
| Birdman: | Ah interesting! | [10:07] |
| danielpbarron: | second highest | [10:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | more like because he has > 800 tinker | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | (and I did not even bother on that precisely because he has had it + it gets increased by tinkering anyway) | [10:07] |
| Birdman: | i was thinking it may be best for the best tinkerer to have the worst building | [10:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | if it is i'll never know | [10:07] |
| diana_coman: | there is high competition at that end Birdman | [10:07] |
| Birdman: | well you can always kill yourself, down the road | [10:08] |
| danielpbarron: | harsh | [10:08] |
| Birdman: | what do you mean diana? | [10:08] |
| danielpbarron: | is still laughing | [10:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | DEATH COMES TO US ALL! | [10:08] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, every noob has "worst building" not to mention the 100 shades of worst building available really, lol; way more competition in having worst building than best building | [10:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | pro tip : to avoid unpleasant surprises, i LOCKED the claim after i started building it. | [10:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | seems to have worked just fine. | [10:10] |
| diana_coman: | ha, good idea | [10:10] |
| danielpbarron: | aha | [10:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | also good in case of dc : you go offline, your bundle awaits to restart. you only lose the time. | [10:11] |
| danielpbarron: | ahh so way less riskier than, for example, my altar clicks | [10:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | i think so. | [10:11] |
| danielpbarron: | which degrade the altar whether i finish or not | [10:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, in a sense. in the other, you can put the altar anywhere, but i gotta mine where the claim is. | [10:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | tho atm that doesn't mean much | [10:11] |
| danielpbarron: | i like to run far away to sacrifice | [10:12] |
| Birdman: | diana_coman no, he's not competing with anyone. Im saying him turning his heaps of q7 stuff into what q155 these days | [10:12] |
| Birdman: | hell of alot more mark up than what he'd loot tinkering it himself, and probably more than selling it at 150\% | [10:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | ahhh this feels gooood. 2.5mn base value gain, not bad for a night's work! | [10:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is the problem of bps, Birdman | [10:13] |
| Birdman: | yes, but if the bv holds through, it will be negligible | [10:13] |
| Birdman: | because your tinkering is very high, and the best | [10:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | for instance : i'd give high[er]q SO for someone to make me lower q US, and KEEP the difference - still nobody came forward yet. | [10:14] |
| Birdman: | whatever mark up you sell your highest q basics for should in theory hold up on the tinkering end | [10:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | how will it be negligible ? | [10:14] |
| Birdman: | bps bv is 10\% of the craft bv | [10:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | and where do i buy bps at bv ? | [10:15] |
| Birdman: | i suppose it could run upwards of 15\% | [10:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | for all you know it could run upwards of 100\% | [10:15] |
| Birdman: | but the point is, with your very cheap abundant low q ingreds, the bp cost is negligible compared to the increase in value from tinkering and the mark up you can charge that comes with the best tinkering | [10:16] |
| Birdman: | just trying to prove the point low building + high/best tinkering is > high building + high tinkering | [10:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | im actually OUT of low q stuff. | [10:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | and have been for a week, which is how i ran out of high q stuff too and went mining. | [10:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | finally caught up on crafting. | [10:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | aaaahhh home sweet home! | [10:18] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu are you buying low q cft i make? | [10:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | sure. | [10:19] |
| Birdman: | then i'll buy 6k grass | [10:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | but you can't buy 6k grass. | [10:20] |
| Birdman: | gotta get the whole lot huh | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's 38257 q 221 for 7609317 ECu | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | say 7.6mn to make it round. | [10:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | pets his collection of q200+ cft bps | [10:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | MY PRRRRREEEECIOUSSSSSESSSSS | [10:25] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron will you be able to meet in town for some claims ~ 30 min | [10:26] |
| Birdman: | about to run out of key space | [10:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | feeeeelings.... nothing more than | [10:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | FEEEEELINGS! | [10:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | trying to forget my | [10:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | feeelings of a tinkerin'!!!1 | [10:28] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman, yeah | [11:15] |
| danielpbarron: | feelings like i.. wanna craft you.. | [11:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [11:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron i like to run far away to sacrifice << iirc grenadine used to sacrifice under the tree lol | [11:22] |
| diana_coman: | interestingly enough mircea_popescu your remarkable build did not bring q down on basics | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | or at least I still get 180 | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | o.O | [12:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's pretty cool then huh. | [12:52] |
| Birdman: | why would it? | [12:53] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron do you ever get smalls from bare handing? | [12:54] |
| Birdman: | im actually hitting quite a bit at this, smalls and tinies | [12:54] |
| Birdman: | too bad i've no foxy bot to build em while it gathers | [12:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | why not ? | [12:55] |
| Birdman: | widget loading problem i guess | [12:57] |
| Birdman: | ~3 hours of bare handed per rank up at the moment | [13:05] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman> danielpbarron do you ever get smalls from bare handing? << yeah all the time, ords even | [13:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | didn't you get a sizeable or something | [13:09] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't think that was barehanded | [13:10] |
| danielpbarron: | most i got barehanded was a remarkable and since no foxybot at the time, all i have left is the ennumeration | [13:10] |
| Birdman: | meet in town for some claims ? | [13:11] |
| Birdman: | wow | [13:11] |
| danielpbarron: | k | [13:11] |
| Birdman: | what enum q do you produce? | [13:11] |
| danielpbarron: | 120 i think | [13:12] |
| Birdman: | at this rate, assuming i can program macro to train, i could probably get 5 levels a day in gathering from bare handed | [13:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | iirc foxybot trains now | [13:13] |
| Birdman: | it works really well with the keyboard commands and focusing on and off of the chat box | [13:13] |
| Birdman: | so just gotta put my dude in the right spot and set up all the stuff | [13:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | nb. | [13:14] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu: checking out your post on wind power, you would think the first think when it comes to alternative power, the first and foremost thing one would evaluate is if this system would generate more power than it costs. So why do you think it was done in the first place? I doubt the people in charge of it all we unawares. some sort of lining their own pockets? | [14:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, but the us is rapidly deindustrializing and it had a few practical choices to try and stop that process. | [14:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | they chose what was cheapest and seemed easiest, exactly like they do, | [14:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | and now the saudis are raping them with it. | [14:27] |
| Birdman: | hm | [14:27] |
| Birdman: | but its easily proven that its ineffective | [14:28] |
| Birdman: | even retroactive | [14:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | "It's said that most at home traders fail, but this is incorrect: they fail at making money, but they are successful at feeling like a trader. That is the goal; the money is secondary, which is why they fail at making it." | [14:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is effective at making ustards feel like they're part of the civilised world. actually working is secondary. | [14:30] |
| Birdman: | so who the hell gave such incompetence power | [14:30] |
| Birdman: | And by power i guess i mean money. Are these privite or some government projects | [14:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | just the normal result of the electoral process. | [14:35] |
| Birdman: | guess you just dont get used to it | [14:39] |
| Birdman: | but cool now i know wind power is stupid | [14:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | hey, it's great if you're a senator. | [14:42] |
| Birdman: | I could only imagine | [14:43] |
| Birdman: | , through some deductive reasoning, is now yet another eulorian who knows the location of ss | [14:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | wd. | [14:44] |
| Birdman: | is that needed in low quality? | [14:45] |
| jurov: | Birdman: you use my binary? | [15:43] |
| jurov: | i don't like how everyone is dropping "foxybot not working" left and right but never stepping up to troubleshoot | [15:45] |
| Birdman: | ill help to trouble shoot, and im not trying to be a dick saying its not working. I was content when you said last that it would just take awhile for you to work the bug out. And yes im using your binary jurov | [16:01] |
| jurov: | um.. i don't remember that | [16:07] |
| jurov: | i remembered telling you ill make new package later | [16:08] |
| jurov: | and that did happen | [16:08] |
| jurov: | you have to download the new version | [16:08] |
| jurov: | from http://minigame.bz/jurov/ | [16:08] |
| diana_coman: | oh wow 158q mircea_popescu congrats | [16:25] |
| danielpbarron: | oh btw i did lost a quailty point as a result of the remarkable build | [16:26] |
| danielpbarron: | or i assume that's what did it | [16:26] |
| diana_coman: | weird danielpbarron ; or maybe I made up for it with the lvl up on sortage due to a bit on tink, hm | [16:27] |
| danielpbarron: | bout to get it back in a moment | [16:28] |
| danielpbarron: | got myself 30 ords + bundles ready to click | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | heh, wd | [16:28] |
| diana_coman: | are you overcrafting the ords ? | [16:29] |
| danielpbarron: | as best i can | [16:29] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm trying to rank up so yeah | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | makes sense | [16:30] |
| danielpbarron: | not that i ever had an ord go away while building, but i'm gonna lock them from now on | [16:34] |
| danielpbarron: | i like that that's a thing | [16:34] |
| jurov: | anyone bought the stash from mp yet? | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | no | [16:39] |
| jurov: | mircea_popescu: i'll buy. don't have a noob to thread it, but surely someone'll come around | [16:40] |
| jurov: | Birdman: what is your crafting quality | [16:41] |
| jurov: | ? | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | jurov, I recommend Wyrd | [16:41] |
| Birdman: | 46 | [16:41] |
| jurov: | 46 would be okay, too | [16:41] |
| Birdman: | and i'll re download that soon | [16:41] |
| Birdman: | im all for doing it | [16:41] |
| Birdman: | if the price is right | [16:41] |
| jurov: | yes, needs some consideration. you should get some additional cft. but the overcraft will be maybe 30\% of the overvalue | [16:43] |
| jurov: | maybe more, dunno | [16:43] |
| jurov: | btw, is low cft actually wanted? | [16:45] |
| Birdman: | mp said he'd buy it, so there's that | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | jurov, yeah, it's needed; I guess atm there is a bit of block on trading due to bp unknown | [16:46] |
| Birdman: | jurov what is over value? | [16:48] |
| jurov: | difference between bundle value and output nonlootqty*quality*basevalue | [16:49] |
| jurov: | loot should be directly depending on that | [16:50] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd buy low q cft | [16:50] |
| jurov: | for? | [16:50] |
| danielpbarron: | braided threads i guess | [16:50] |
| jurov: | lolk i asked about price | [16:51] |
| Birdman: | i assume the bp problem will be no more come this time tomorrow | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | ha Birdman not so sure | [16:51] |
| Birdman: | what makes you say that? | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | it's one thing having the stuff - another figuring out how to make bps and at what cost | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | and if all or what or whatever | [16:52] |
| Birdman: | this is true | [16:52] |
| danielpbarron: | jurov> lolk i asked about price << lol i almost said "wtf do you care what i need it for" | [16:52] |
| danielpbarron: | well i'd defo buy at merchant price | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, there surely is demand for most items really regardless | [16:53] |
| jurov: | merchant price? tyvm | [16:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd go higher even | [16:55] |
| jurov: | oooh | [16:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't necessarily mean what the merchant would ~sell~ it for | [16:55] |
| danielpbarron: | what is the correct way to say "what the game thinks it is worth" | [16:56] |
| danielpbarron: | i take "base value" to mean "at quality 100" | [16:56] |
| danielpbarron: | and then there's "quality adjusted" | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | <danielpbarron> i take "base value" to mean "at quality 100" <- correct | [16:57] |
| danielpbarron: | aaand got my quality point back | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | heh, congrats | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | what q do you get basics at danielpbarron ? | [16:57] |
| danielpbarron: | well Mircea means the adjusted for quality thing when he said "base value" | [16:57] |
| danielpbarron: | over 150 | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | it's kind of used both ways in the end though the q adjusted makes it clearer | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | lol, don't you get it over 200? | [16:58] |
| danielpbarron: | why would that be? | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | I somehow thought you were 2nd in basics, no? | [16:58] |
| jurov: | such as 38257*2.21*60*1.5 = 7609317,3 | [16:58] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm playing catch up on building | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | or whatever, over180 at least | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | oh | [16:58] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm 2nd in sortage | [16:58] |
| danielpbarron: | or i can only assume i am since it takes so damn long to rank up | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | I didn't bother with sortage at all, so you probably are | [16:59] |
| danielpbarron: | not that i bothered with it but i had it since the start pretty much | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | aha, so probably yes | [16:59] |
| jurov: | dumped my brain to oocalc and interesting result came out...if I get loot valued < 50\% of the possible overcraft, it's better to weave it myself (or someone with higher quality) | [17:11] |
| jurov: | with mircea's prices for cft | [17:11] |
| jurov: | only if the loot is more valuable, it's better to make low cft | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | makes sense as a general principle, but good to know a concrete point | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | oh wow, so the loot pools are connected | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | my q dropped on...farming (1 point) | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | guess the logical thing to do then would be to just mine the shit out of...basics in fact | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | hm | [17:34] |
| jurov: | also, the more important outcome was I stand no chance to get the 7.6m back.. so I'll pass | [17:34] |
| diana_coman: | how is that jurov ? | [17:35] |
| jurov: | mircea's price for my cft would be only 2.9m | [17:35] |
| jurov: | and I don't see the loot making out for it in any way | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | oh, at the 150\% yeah, pretty much it's only if you either a. count on a pop b. really want to rank up quickly | [17:35] |
| jurov: | *making up | [17:35] |
| jurov: | should mircea find himself short of recipes, i'll kindly sell him 16k cft recipes at 27 per (too 150\%) | [17:38] |
| diana_coman: | ahahaha | [17:39] |
| danielpbarron: | diana_coman> my q dropped on...farming (1 point) << you mean it dropped on ~building~ | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | maybe, I don't really grok how it all works there | [17:40] |
| danielpbarron: | funny thing is Mircea's grass mixed with mine would actually make my quality ~lower~ | [17:40] |
| diana_coman: | I guess it's possible that my sortage thing remained constant because of 1 lvl up while tinkering although it's weird that now the farming is down 1 q *despite* increasing building + 1 meanwhile | [17:40] |
| danielpbarron: | still got that 900+ grass | [17:40] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron ended up mixing some of those cs with some higher q, so ill just give you half as many back, the q left is well over 2x what you would have gotten | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | I still have some 1000q grass | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | but not really much | [17:41] |
| danielpbarron: | but yeah that remarkable was a lot of ~building~ exp and it effected all things ~building~ | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | the thing is that 1point in farming is huge | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | 1 point in sortage is nothing by comparison | [17:42] |
| danielpbarron: | only because you can't rank up farming at the craft table | [17:42] |
| Birdman: | who else is known to be a farmer? | [17:42] |
| danielpbarron: | they are both hard to rank up | [17:43] |
| diana_coman: | nope, not only that | [17:43] |
| danielpbarron: | i could be a farmer if i wanted to be | [17:43] |
| diana_coman: | it's both hard to rank AND slow to give q | [17:43] |
| danielpbarron: | i think i'd rather wait for the book to come out | [17:43] |
| danielpbarron: | since the skill item is used in a sacrifice | [17:43] |
| diana_coman: | is working on it but by the looks of it, still ages to go, lol | [17:44] |
| danielpbarron: | the video i'm about to publish will show why i'm not in a rush to farm | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | do you lj danielpbarron ? | [17:44] |
| danielpbarron: | cracking myself up over here with the stock youtube audio selections | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | not to mention that there is still something weird re either farming or mining with foxy: at mining = half of farming, I get q137 on mining and 141 on farming | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | (while 120 on building-only) | [17:48] |
| diana_coman: | in some sense it's good to *not* have lj as I have the reference on building-alone, lol | [17:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman> is that needed in low quality? << i'd buy it. | [17:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | jurov> i don't like how everyone is dropping "foxybot not working" left and right but never stepping up to troubleshoot << welcome to windows world lol | [17:51] |
| Birdman: | molluscs, where do i get em | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | jurov> mircea_popescu: i'll buy. don't have a noob to thread it, but surely someone'll come around << it's a deal, im in town at your convenience. | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, just place an order paying >10k per mollusc and I'll get on it | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | molluscs, good god. | [17:52] |
| Birdman: | thats what the ss ords need heh | [17:52] |
| Birdman: | let me run some numbers | [17:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | o jesus. | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, they need 1 per | [17:52] |
| Birdman: | so i really gotta pay 5x bv to get these things huh | [17:53] |
| Birdman: | might just be a bust | [17:53] |
| Birdman: | lest i can charge a left nut for the low q ss | [17:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman> i assume the bp problem will be no more come this time tomorrow <<< i have my doubts also. | [17:53] |
| diana_coman: | I'd rather simply get a noob to build my claims on ss for low q ss, lol | [17:54] |
| Birdman: | yes and i'd rather build my own claims too, go figure | [17:54] |
| diana_coman: | sure, go ahead, lol | [17:54] |
| Birdman: | re: bps, i have many screens and clogs so it can get done | [17:54] |
| diana_coman: | doubts it's a matter of only "having screens and clogs in large numbers" | [17:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | jurov> with mircea's prices for cft << the other big deal here is that there's a sheer shortage of cft. i'm not selling and i don't intend to sell. | [17:56] |
| Birdman: | its a bouq thing, what else is there to it | [17:56] |
| Birdman: | diana_coman what q are your molluscs and price? | [17:56] |
| diana_coman: | oh Birdman you new to eulora or something? | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman you do happen to be in a quite good position for the new situation, yeah. | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | cuz making more screens will be a bitch. | [17:56] |
| Birdman: | thats why i bought em and said screw the price | [17:56] |
| danielpbarron: | just sell me the ss ords | [17:56] |
| danielpbarron: | i have my own molluscs | [17:57] |
| Birdman: | shoulda bid more than a copper on that last auction lol | [17:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | jurov> should mircea find himself short of recipes, i'll kindly sell him 16k cft recipes at 27 per (too 150\%) <<< this is missing a datapoint. what q ? | [17:57] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, molluscs are farming, so I get them at 140q (or more) | [17:57] |
| Birdman: | and specific price? | [17:58] |
| jurov: | i doubt situation is so dire that anybody would buy my cft at 2x base value | [17:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | possibly not. what q are your bps then ? | [17:59] |
| danielpbarron: | i still have a lot of those blueprints | [17:59] |
| Birdman: | and the price diana_coman? | [17:59] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman, sell me the snakeskin ords | [17:59] |
| jurov: | q is 70-90 | [17:59] |
| danielpbarron: | or i'll trade you cs for them | [18:00] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron i may have access to a noob | [18:00] |
| danielpbarron: | so? | [18:00] |
| danielpbarron: | i want ~high quality~ snakeskin | [18:00] |
| Birdman: | so we all know selling an ord is < getting a noob to mine it | [18:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron> still got that 900+ grass << ahaha that's some sweet grass. | [18:00] |
| Birdman: | its insanely hard not to turn a big profit on noob building ords | [18:00] |
| danielpbarron: | it's that good good | [18:00] |
| Birdman: | mayb 3:1 on the cs deal | [18:00] |
| danielpbarron: | oh gtfo | [18:00] |
| Birdman: | well get some other fool to do it then | [18:01] |
| danielpbarron: | you should better have foxy build them with my mollusc for max quality | [18:01] |
| Birdman: | that isn't feasible | [18:01] |
| Birdman: | i'd rather get the heaps from a noob | [18:01] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't know what low quality snakeskin would even be used in | [18:02] |
| Birdman: | .7 bv -> ((158-7)/2+7)/100 > whatever dinky 30\% over i can charge on high q when im paying 500\% on some mollusc and 130\%+ on all else | [18:02] |
| Birdman: | gonna start stalking people to find resources i swear | [18:03] |
| diana_coman: | is curious where will Birdman get an endless supply of cs | [18:04] |
| danielpbarron: | i think the only other thing not public is mollusc | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman well i auctioned a few 100s, may have distorted the perceptions. | [18:04] |
| Birdman: | i know they are in short supply | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | I quite think that's what happened | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | btw Birdman did you miss on ss? | [18:05] |
| Birdman: | no | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | good for you; I had a noob miss even 4 times in a row, lol | [18:05] |
| Birdman: | i still like to think im a gud gatherer | [18:06] |
| Birdman: | im making nearly q80 enums and still only smalls and ords | [18:06] |
| Birdman: | and frequent hits on bare handed | [18:06] |
| Birdman: | smalls with basic/imp tools that is, ords with cs | [18:06] |
| diana_coman: | I'm sure you have higher gathering rank than my noob had | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | feeelings | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | nothing more than | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | FEEELINGS | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | neah, sounds more like BELIEFS | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | trying to forget my... feelings of a tinkerer!!11 | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman ever since the update i've been cracking myself up with my own loots. | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | oh, got no sentiments mircea_popescu ? | [18:07] |
| Birdman: | yeah, but the point is that for me to be so high and this still be the case is something of note imo | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | none so far, grass apparently doesn't yield to sentimentality. | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | it had a hard, bitter existence. | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | awww | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | I think I'll end up leaving foxy cut wood over night | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | of all things | [18:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [18:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | funny how this game is all round, keeps setting itself down in a different spot | [18:10] |
| danielpbarron: | why would you do that? | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, getting molluscs is a huge, angry, stuck up bitch really; atm I'd have to charge like 25k to feel fine about getting and selling molluscs (141q) | [18:10] |
| Birdman: | what goes into getting them | [18:11] |
| diana_coman: | because in 640 basic hoe uses on flotsam, I got 4k at 180q which moreover can even get me to rank up in sortage quite fast if I set down and make it into bloody ibs which in turn I NEED to make tools to MINE | [18:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | incidentally, overcraft now produces some pretty credible extra item \%s | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, the mollusc ord is in the list | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | but ftr : it's out of question as it takes 2 st | [18:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | st still not found huh | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | and it gives like 4 molluscs at my q MAX | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | yes mircea_popescu and worse than that | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | thing is: I found the mollusc some time ago | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | BUT | [18:13] |
| Birdman: | you'd think itd be found by now, considering the gathering bots | [18:13] |
| Birdman: | what can i pay you to tell me where to find these molluscs | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | the mollusc is the highest valued thing we found so far (Well, I found rather dunno about the rest) | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | and it is base value ~ 2k | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | compare that with the st at ~5k | [18:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | my observation so far has been that it's always EASY to find something | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | AFTER you have high q gathering (or whatever overall) | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | more or less found them in order of value really | [18:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | which again gets me back to: better dig flotsam or whatever until gathering rank increases, lol | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, hmmm, how about 10mn | [18:16] |
| Birdman: | what you think you just cant find st until the gathering level is high enough to 'unlock' it or whatever? | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | well, technically you *can* - it's just that the chances are ...dismal | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | like winning the big lottery jackpot kind of thing | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | sure, you can | [18:16] |
| Birdman: | but the placement isnt random | [18:16] |
| Birdman: | hm | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | no, but remember that I found DIFFERENT things at the same place before | [18:17] |
| Birdman: | i guess that'd make sense, but dan with a not so remarkable gathering level found a sizeable | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | actually for that matter I'd be curious if you find mollusc at the place lol | [18:17] |
| Birdman: | which is what ~8mil for the enum itself? | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron what was that sizable btw ? | [18:17] |
| danielpbarron: | grass | [18:17] |
| diana_coman: | grass I think | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | you selling it ? | [18:17] |
| danielpbarron: | q220 ennum | [18:18] |
| danielpbarron: | not in a rush to sell it | [18:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | what'd you take ? | [18:18] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd sell it now for .. 10 btc | [18:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | uh. 1bn ? | [18:19] |
| danielpbarron: | ya | [18:19] |
| Birdman: | <diana_coman>actually for that matter I'd be curious if you find mollusc at the place lol << sweet lets go! | [18:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | ouch. i'd pay say... hm. 12mn on it, something like that. | [18:19] |
| diana_coman: | sure Birdman, pay the 10mn and off we go | [18:19] |
| danielpbarron: | out of the question | [18:19] |
| Birdman: | heh | [18:19] |
| Birdman: | thats just insane diana | [18:20] |
| diana_coman: | combing the map to find the resources is insane indeed | [18:20] |
| Birdman: | how about 200k | [18:20] |
| diana_coman: | now I can't be insane only half way, can I? | [18:20] |
| diana_coman: | lol | [18:20] |
| Birdman: | there are degrees of it, im sure | [18:21] |
| danielpbarron: | is slowly getting a picture of the island in pixel per hit form | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | loller | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | this chan is pretty entertaining | [18:21] |
| danielpbarron: | i have very nice patterns mapped out in the thorns areas and the grass area | [18:21] |
| diana_coman: | heh, it's quite nice to make the map danielpbarron isn't it? | [18:21] |
| danielpbarron: | yep | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | darn | [18:22] |
| Birdman: | eta 15 min to meet in town danielpbarron | [18:23] |
| Birdman: | i wonder what tinkering level you'd need to make a usable cs | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, quite possibly mad degrees of insanity | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman, check the cookbook and base value of a cs - that might give you a clue | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | you'd need q 100 | [18:24] |
| Birdman: | quite a ways awat | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | darn mircea_popescu telling it plainly lol | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | :) | [18:24] |
| danielpbarron: | mine are close enough to were i could buy other player's overquality and mix them | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm just saying it like it is! | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | bwahahahaha | [18:24] |
| danielpbarron: | which i have already done a little | [18:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman anyway, re earlier point : it's not hard to profit as a noob, but strangely enough very few noobs get it. | [18:25] |
| Birdman: | yeah i noticed | [18:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | that alina character point in case. | [18:25] |
| danielpbarron: | i thought Nidhogg got it but he's so rarely around to do stuff | [18:25] |
| Birdman: | took me all of 5 min to figure out all i needed was a tool and some threads and i hit the grass | [18:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | diffrent strokes i guess | [18:26] |
| Birdman: | but thats why they're noobs i guess | [18:26] |
| Birdman: | all the better to use their labor | [18:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | hehe that's a point. | [18:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman so you selling that wheel bp or what! | [18:29] |
| diana_coman: | just the bp no, not until I can figure out what the hell is with the bps | [18:30] |
| danielpbarron: | got another point up! yay | [18:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | darn | [18:30] |
| diana_coman: | well, no reason for me to sell it really | [18:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's eulora's main problem, no cash crunch | [18:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | nobody has any real reason to sell anything. | [18:31] |
| diana_coman: | maybe, though I doubt it overall | [18:32] |
| Birdman: | huh? can never have enough money right | [18:32] |
| diana_coman: | the thing is that a little gain now usually translates in eulora in a big loss down the road, lol | [18:32] |
| Birdman: | right, i'd only part with things i dont think i could make better use of | [18:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, tomorrow is the big day, almost here. | [18:33] |
| Birdman: | it is pretty exciting | [18:33] |
| diana_coman: | wait, mircea_popescu are you seriously suggesting that whatever I'd get on that bp would make a diff for tomorrow ? lol | [18:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah no | [18:34] |
| diana_coman: | good, thought insanity was catching | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | if insanity weren't catching how can you explain matrimony! | [18:34] |
| danielpbarron: | if it's communicable then i'm some sort of immune carrier of it; had lots of insane associates over the years | [18:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [18:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's so soothingly satisfying to sit here and watch it thread grass... | [18:35] |
| Birdman: | no misses with cs on ss (so far), higher bv than md, i miss about 25\% on md | [18:38] |
| danielpbarron: | i already built all the md you got me | [18:39] |
| danielpbarron: | those were easy | [18:39] |
| diana_coman: | oh fuck, 2 art is 5pm gmt, isn't it? | [18:39] |
| Birdman: | yeah md is my fav | [18:39] |
| danielpbarron: | and comes in handy because i need beetles for these thorn ords | [18:40] |
| Birdman: | plus its adjacent to town | [18:40] |
| danielpbarron: | everything is close enough to town | [18:40] |
| danielpbarron: | i got the whole map memorized | [18:40] |
| Birdman: | no when you're carrying heaps | [18:40] |
| danielpbarron: | even the furthest spot is close enough; the hardest things are like right after a big drop and you have to go all the way around it | [18:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman it's 8:45pm now if that helps | [18:41] |
| Birdman: | gmt is art time i thought | [18:41] |
| danielpbarron: | it's at like noon or 1 for us | [18:41] |
| Birdman: | yeah noon | [18:42] |
| Birdman: | huh, found a new grub spot | [18:43] |
| Birdman: | something seemed fishy about the spot, glad i searched there | [18:43] |
| danielpbarron: | grubs aren't so rare | [18:44] |
| danielpbarron: | i see them all over the map | [18:44] |
| Birdman: | grub enum at 1 point higher than the snails is inferior, to the snails standard | [18:45] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron still want some supp drafts | [18:47] |
| Birdman: | can give you a stack of leather and berries, and 5k thorns | [18:47] |
| danielpbarron: | lemme see what electron pays for them | [18:49] |
| Birdman: | bv is 2 | [18:49] |
| Birdman: | or thats what the npc charges | [18:49] |
| Birdman: | cant see price on my q | [18:49] |
| danielpbarron: | i want to see what i actually get | [18:49] |
| diana_coman: | Birdman> grub enum at 1 point higher than the snails is inferior, to the snails standard <- aha, suspect that's cause grub is farming while snails lj | [18:50] |
| Birdman: | can i buy your screens for 1.15mn danielpbarron | [18:50] |
| Birdman: | whats the difference diana_coman? | [18:50] |
| diana_coman: | highest level on lj is likely way smaller than highest level on farming | [18:51] |
| diana_coman: | (highest rank that someone got) | [18:51] |
| Birdman: | ah | [18:51] |
| Birdman: | plays into my theory of skill line competition | [18:51] |
| diana_coman: | mhm, dunno about that, I think it's more about what standard/inferior etc stand for as labels | [18:52] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu> diana_coman it's 8:45pm now if that helps <- it helps as a check, yes; it is indeed 5pm gmt, sigh | [18:52] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, I'm off | [18:53] |
| jurov: | anyone wants to replenish coppers? | [18:54] |
| jurov: | not 100\% sure ill make it to the auction | [18:54] |
| danielpbarron: | lol i don't even get 1 copper each | [18:54] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman, i'll pay 1 copper each for them | [18:55] |
| Birdman: | shoulda hopped on your deal before lol | [18:55] |
| danielpbarron: | unless you can figure out an amount you can sell to electron that actually pays you | [18:55] |
| Birdman: | nah im set | [18:55] |
| danielpbarron: | like maybe if you sell 10 at once it'll pay | [18:55] |
| Birdman: | will just be fond memories of my bouq derping | [18:55] |
| danielpbarron: | idk | [18:55] |
| danielpbarron: | wow, even 100 doesn't pay | [18:57] |
| danielpbarron: | i hope that's something that gets fixed at some point | [18:57] |
| danielpbarron: | they should be worth ~something~ | [18:57] |
| Birdman: | trade me | [18:57] |
| Birdman: | oh man | [19:03] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron sell me a craft table | [19:03] |
| Birdman: | i misplaced mine | [19:03] |
| danielpbarron: | k | [19:04] |
| Birdman: | have 6 ordinary sb enums, one key to an ord sb claim, and 2 ord sb bundles | [19:04] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu will you buy some low q ppb? | [19:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | you gotta learn to be specific. | [19:05] |
| Birdman: | q46 | [19:05] |
| Birdman: | sorry | [19:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's 1/2 | [19:06] |
| Birdman: | oh and probably in the 200 are | [19:06] |
| Birdman: | area | [19:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | the 200 area ? | [19:06] |
| Birdman: | 200 of them | [19:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | aite. i'm in town. | [19:07] |
| Birdman: | well im gonna make em over night | [19:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | k. | [19:07] |
| danielpbarron: | heh, got 12 feelings from makin that table | [19:09] |
| danielpbarron: | what a strange thing to say | [19:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [19:09] |
| danielpbarron: | was gonna undercraft but didn't have low q threads | [19:10] |
| danielpbarron: | so there ya go jurov | [19:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | <danielpbarron> they should be worth ~something~ << they're actually bv 10. | [19:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | so at q 10 they should get exactly 1 copper. | [19:11] |
| danielpbarron: | these ones are q 50 about | [19:12] |
| danielpbarron: | oh | [19:12] |
| danielpbarron: | not the feelings | [19:12] |
| danielpbarron: | the supplication drafts | [19:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh. | [19:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | iirc the sup drafts had low bv because the stuff that went into them had low bv in turn | [19:12] |
| Birdman: | yeah, bundles like under 50 ecu | [19:13] |
| Birdman: | not to mention you'd loot thousands of em | [19:13] |
| danielpbarron: | still they are worth ~something~ not 0 | [19:14] |
| danielpbarron: | i understand selling 1 might round down to 0 but selling 10 at once should yield something | [19:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah, in theory. | [19:15] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu how far along the tinkering books do you think you'll make it to before death? | [19:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno. planning to find out! | [19:28] |
| Birdman: | hm, seems i got much less than expected from the sb ords | [19:38] |
| Birdman: | soo lookin at only 27 ppb lol | [19:39] |
| Birdman: | though if anyone has high q sb for sale ill buy at 125\% | [19:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | well Birdman if i ever manage to get wdd i'll dig up some sb remarkables. | [20:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | sooo | [20:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | 12:22 - 22:30 yielded just about 4k grass. this is 1/4 of the payload. so work overnight to dig up a remarkable grass ; work for the next 40 hours to thread it all up. | [20:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | seems about 4:1 atm | [20:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | 4k cft i mean* | [20:28] |
| danielpbarron: | up to 54 clicks, .34 total : down to 15 cents a click | [21:42] |
| DicePower: | hey hey | [21:45] |
| danielpbarron: | yo | [21:45] |
| DicePower: | So I tried to get into Eulora today and ran into another small hiccup. | [21:52] |
| danielpbarron: | what's that | [21:53] |
| DicePower: | In the main menu/character creation room/etc., all of the text is in a huge font, and gets cut off to there point that there are some options you can't read. | [21:53] |
| DicePower: | Changing the screen resolution doesn't fix it. | [21:54] |
| DicePower: | Does it do this for everyone? | [21:54] |
| danielpbarron: | there is only one option really : male or female | [21:56] |
| danielpbarron: | and your name : first and last | [21:56] |
| DicePower: | There were some other things as well that you could choose, for me. | [21:56] |
| danielpbarron: | well those knobs don't connect to anything if i'm not mistaken | [21:56] |
| DicePower: | For example, there was something that defaulted to "Enkidukais" | [21:56] |
| DicePower: | But the only button I could see was "Eulorians" | [21:56] |
| danielpbarron: | although it would be very interesting if you joined the world as a new race | [21:56] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm sure we'd all be your very best friend | [21:57] |
| DicePower: | I'm guessing the avatar picture was covering the "Enkisukais" up | [21:57] |
| danielpbarron: | i never tried it, but you can delete your character and presumably make another | [21:57] |
| DicePower: | I'm wondering if the game tracks anything else you pick on the creation screen. | [21:58] |
| DicePower: | For future implementation. | [21:58] |
| danielpbarron: | each character has unique stats that were once visible to us elders | [21:58] |
| danielpbarron: | but we had not control over them | [21:58] |
| danielpbarron: | and it was seemingly random | [21:58] |
| DicePower: | That sucks | [21:58] |
| danielpbarron: | well can you change your own attributes? | [21:59] |
| DicePower: | Not sure if you can optimize them in game. | [21:59] |
| danielpbarron: | i mean you literally | [21:59] |
| danielpbarron: | you were born a certain way, totally out of your control | [22:00] |
| DicePower: | So to optimize, you have to find a formula that reverse engineers stats through game play experimentation, and then reroll until you get a good character? | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | no | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | the stats are fixed | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | oh | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | i see what you mean | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | i suppose that could work | [22:01] |
| danielpbarron: | but i don't think any of us even knows how to do that | [22:01] |
| DicePower: | This sounds like the IV issue in the old Pokemon games that made them a nightmare to optimize a team. | [22:02] |
| danielpbarron: | i wouldn't worry about it | [22:02] |
| danielpbarron: | players eventually die anyway | [22:02] |
| DicePower: | Really? | [22:02] |
| DicePower: | You have to keep making new characters? | [22:02] |
| danielpbarron: | but if you want to optimize, the best suggestion i can offer is look at your max weight capacity | [22:02] |
| danielpbarron: | maybe aim for a ~low~ number as that means you have less strength and more of some stat that is more useful in crafting | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | well nobody has died yet as there is not yet any death | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess no player has eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil yet | [22:03] |
| DicePower: | Oh, so it's like you have a fixed number of stat points with a random distribution? | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | i can only guess | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | but my character seems to have the highest weight max | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | so i can carry the most stuff | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | but that doesn't help all that much | [22:03] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd rather have more of a stat that make me craft higher quality or something | [22:04] |
| DicePower: | So if characters can die | [22:04] |
| DicePower: | Can you tell when someone is playing on a new character? | [22:04] |
| danielpbarron: | first they will be able to marry and make offspring | [22:04] |
| danielpbarron: | you'll know it is them because they will inherit the name | [22:04] |
| DicePower: | huh? | [22:05] |
| danielpbarron: | you have a first and last name | [22:05] |
| DicePower: | Oh, so descendants will have the same last name | [22:05] |
| danielpbarron: | this is a lot of guessing on my part; not much of this has been formally declared by the creator | [22:05] |
| danielpbarron: | something like that | [22:05] |
| danielpbarron: | or a form of it | [22:06] |
| DicePower: | But if you create two new characters, is there a way for someone to tell they are the same person controlling them? | [22:06] |
| danielpbarron: | so far we can't have two characters | [22:06] |
| DicePower: | Oh okay | [22:06] |
| DicePower: | I guess another way to ask it is | [22:06] |
| DicePower: | Is your account username private? | [22:06] |
| DicePower: | (and only the avatar name used in chat, etc.) | [22:07] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess it is | [22:07] |
| danielpbarron: | but i think most people's username is the name they use in here | [22:07] |
| danielpbarron: | oh yes, your login name does not have to be the same as your character name | [22:08] |
| danielpbarron: | most aren't | [22:08] |
| DicePower: | Yeah that kinda threw me off, since I wasn't using the name in here I normally use in games. | [22:08] |
| danielpbarron: | i think only myself and Mircea use our own names as our character names | [22:08] |
| DicePower: | I assume the account name is only for loggin in to the game? | [22:09] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman is Korgan, diana_coman is Foxy, hanbot is Grenadine, Jurov is Grundin, fghj is Nidhogg | [22:09] |
| danielpbarron: | that's correct | [22:09] |
| DicePower: | Okay, no biggie then | [22:09] |
| danielpbarron: | you probably had a notebook full of notes on how to optimize your diablo ii character | [22:10] |
| DicePower: | lol | [22:10] |
| DicePower: | I played Diablo III for a while, but never got that far into it. | [22:10] |
| danielpbarron: | i had the perfect magic find barbarian with literally the best magic find armor | [22:10] |
| DicePower: | I don't think characters in D3 had inherent stat values. | [22:11] |
| DicePower: | Okay so for me, the thing isn't BEING optimized. | [22:11] |
| DicePower: | It's more about not closing doors to eventual optimization. | [22:11] |
| DicePower: | So inherent character stat values are a big deal to optimize. | [22:11] |
| DicePower: | Since you can't change them later. | [22:11] |
| danielpbarron: | most of the game right now revolves around skills, and the only closing door is your own wallet | [22:11] |
| DicePower: | But something like getting the most optimized armor isn't as big. | [22:12] |
| DicePower: | Since it can be pushed aside as a later goal. | [22:12] |
| danielpbarron: | we don't have armor yet, or at least not the kind used in battle | [22:12] |
| danielpbarron: | since no death | [22:12] |
| danielpbarron: | the primary activities are : gathering exploration markers, building exploration markers, and crafting resources into products, and products into other products | [22:13] |
| DicePower: | So we don't know for sure whether the inherent character stat values are passed down generation to generation. | [22:13] |
| DicePower: | Since it's not implemented yet :P | [22:13] |
| danielpbarron: | aha | [22:13] |
| danielpbarron: | that's a good question | [22:13] |
| danielpbarron: | i wondered that myself | [22:14] |
| danielpbarron: | that seems like a reasonable expectation though | [22:14] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't know how you could test which stats you have though | [22:14] |
| danielpbarron: | with the exception of strength | [22:14] |
| DicePower: | Well, how Pokemon speedrunners do it is reverse engineer it based off of some result. | [22:15] |
| danielpbarron: | funny thing is i didn't even try to optimize and i ~saw~ the stats | [22:15] |
| danielpbarron: | i just went with my first character | [22:15] |
| DicePower: | So they will infer that the IV is between 14 and 16 or something based on how much damage they take at one part. | [22:15] |
| danielpbarron: | we elders really had no clue about things when it started | [22:15] |
| DicePower: | hehe | [22:15] |
| DicePower: | Seeing the stats would be MUCH easier, but maybe not necessary. | [22:15] |
| danielpbarron: | if i could do it again i suppose i'd aim for high intelligence or something | [22:16] |
| DicePower: | Do you have a list of what the stats were? | [22:16] |
| danielpbarron: | there will be a way to see the stats later in limited shots or something | [22:16] |
| DicePower: | And maybe even the range, though that might be asking too much. | [22:16] |
| danielpbarron: | no comment | [22:16] |
| DicePower: | Not allowed to give that info :P | [22:16] |
| danielpbarron: | nothing isn't allowed | [22:17] |
| danielpbarron: | i think that's one of the splash messages | [22:17] |
| danielpbarron: | there are no rules | [22:17] |
| DicePower: | hehe | [22:17] |
| danielpbarron: | so far there's an honor system were i don't think anyone tries to mess other players up in some overt way like taking their craft table or something | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | If I can find a list of the inherent stat values online somewhere, I might try to come up with a formula to reverse engineer the values. | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | Not sure if it would be a 1 person type of task or not though. | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | But would be easier to do now since I could keep rerolling characters to test it. | [22:18] |
| danielpbarron: | you know, there might be some money in it for you if you do | [22:19] |
| DicePower: | Oh nice, hehe | [22:19] |
| DicePower: | Either way, would be a cool science trick | [22:19] |
| danielpbarron: | that's not a promise, i'm not offering to pay | [22:19] |
| danielpbarron: | come to think of it, it sounds like a very expensive task | [22:20] |
| DicePower: | I think what would be necessary to start with is a list of the stat categories (Intelligence, Strength, etc.), and a general idea of what each one affects. | [22:20] |
| DicePower: | If you had the range each value could take, you could be more precise. | [22:21] |
| DicePower: | Expensive in time or money? | [22:21] |
| danielpbarron: | the only way to get skills is via particular items that are in limited supply | [22:21] |
| danielpbarron: | Mircea has so far given the main three to all new players | [22:21] |
| danielpbarron: | but i doubt he will give them to you over and over | [22:21] |
| DicePower: | Are the items necessary to test the impact of inherent stat values | [22:22] |
| DicePower: | ? | [22:22] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm not sure if you can tinker without the tinkering skill; that's an open question | [22:22] |
| DicePower: | Ahhh | [22:22] |
| danielpbarron: | and in fact, i would like someone to try it | [22:22] |
| danielpbarron: | my hypothesis is that it will crash the server | [22:22] |
| DicePower: | LOL | [22:22] |
| danielpbarron: | trying to sacrifice without the sacrifice skill crashes the server | [22:22] |
| DicePower: | So it logs everyone off? | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | that we know | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah | [22:23] |
| DicePower: | Sounds problematic lol | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | well not really | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | it happened exactly twice | [22:23] |
| DicePower: | Is it expensive to try? | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | mostly because i'm stupid and missed the part in the log where hanbot reported doing it already | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | yes | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | very | [22:23] |
| DicePower: | ahhh | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | only two of us have sacrifice, and each one of us has 1 altar, and the altars were very expensive | [22:23] |
| danielpbarron: | or mine was at least | [22:24] |
| danielpbarron: | and there is no way to make more yet | [22:24] |
| danielpbarron: | and each attempt to sacrifice does damage to the altar | [22:24] |
| danielpbarron: | i have something like 30 to 40 clicks left on mine | [22:24] |
| DicePower: | So I noticed that this game is very open on things like its loot formula. | [22:25] |
| danielpbarron: | open how? | [22:25] |
| DicePower: | Isn't the loot formula on the wiki? | [22:25] |
| danielpbarron: | that's someone's educated guess | [22:25] |
| DicePower: | ohh okay | [22:25] |
| danielpbarron: | whatever you're referring to | [22:25] |
| danielpbarron: | the gist of it is, if you put high quality in and get lower quality out, it's called "overcraft" and you have a chance to get some extra loot to make up the difference | [22:26] |
| danielpbarron: | which used to be blueprints but that recently changed | [22:26] |
| danielpbarron: | now it's these mysterious intermediary items that presumably will be used to craft into blueprints in another line | [22:27] |
| DicePower: | I can't even find the article I had seen now. | [22:29] |
| DicePower: | I guess there's a pretty low chance that the devs would reveal more info on the inherent stat value system then. | [22:29] |
| DicePower: | Was thinking they already did for loot. | [22:29] |
| DicePower: | I guess you just have to make a character and pray you don't end up with terrible genes :P | [22:30] |
| danielpbarron: | seems you should do the praying ~before~ being born if that's the goal | [22:31] |
| DicePower: | Since if you can't reverse engineer a formula because you can't get data points, that also means you can't get data points to brute force check your ability. | [22:31] |
| danielpbarron: | if you can tinker and build without the skill, and without crashing the server, then maybe there is a slight chance you could get data | [22:32] |
| DicePower: | Ehhh, God has foreknowledge of your prayer before you create the character even if you pray after ;) | [22:32] |
| danielpbarron: | which God? | [22:32] |
| DicePower: | That would be really cool to test. | [22:33] |
| DicePower: | I guess any one whose omniscience includes foreknowledge? | [22:33] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess i mean are we still being cute or is this an actual belief of yours | [22:33] |
| danielpbarron: | anyway, more i think about it the more fruitless this plan seems | [22:34] |
| DicePower: | Well I was just being cute, but I don't see how this type of foreknowledge WOULDN'T follow from omniscience. | [22:34] |
| danielpbarron: | you'd really have to rank up your skill to see for sure how your stats effect it | [22:34] |
| danielpbarron: | you're right and not only that, but God would have created you to pray it | [22:35] |
| DicePower: | Yup, at least created you knowing you would pray it. | [22:35] |
| danielpbarron: | not just knowing, making you pray it | [22:36] |
| DicePower: | Well, that's debatable. | [22:36] |
| DicePower: | If you're a Calvinist, yeah. | [22:36] |
| danielpbarron: | I'm up for a debate, and no I'm not a Calvinist as I don't believe in limited attonement | [22:36] |
| DicePower: | If you think libertarian free will is a thing, not so much. | [22:36] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't, or at least not any will that is outside of God's will | [22:36] |
| DicePower: | If I may be so bold as to ask, how does i.e., sin, redemption, punishment, make sense if our "free" decisions are ultimately determined by God? | [22:38] |
| danielpbarron: | it doesn't need to make sense | [22:38] |
| danielpbarron: | you just need to believe it | [22:38] |
| DicePower: | But if there was a Biblically consistent interpretation of divine sovereignty and free will that DID make sense, wouldn't that be the preferred interpretation? | [22:39] |
| danielpbarron: | man "prefers" evil, he thinks of it every day | [22:40] |
| DicePower: | If someone performs a certain action, say willingly pushing someone off of a building, he is morally accountable for the action, but if a third person PUSHED him into the person who fell, he is not accountable, because he was pushed, he had no choice in the matter. | [22:43] |
| DicePower: | Similarly, if we have no true freedom to perform one action versus another, how can we be accountable for our choices? | [22:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | o hey didja manage to get in ? | [22:43] |
| DicePower: | Heya, I got in, but haven't made it past character creation yet :P | [22:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol whyssat ? | [22:44] |
| DicePower: | My font was all huge and cut off, and it was hard to see what the options were. Enkidukais VS Eulorians, etc. | [22:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower> I'm wondering if the game tracks anything else you pick on the creation screen. << nope. | [22:45] |
| danielpbarron: | DicePower, Romans 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? | [22:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, there's no option outside of picking a name for yourself and a gender | [22:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower> So to optimize, you have to find a formula that reverse engineers stats through game play experimentation, and then reroll until you get a good character? <<< now this i wanna see. | [22:46] |
| DicePower: | hehe | [22:46] |
| danielpbarron: | someone would have to supply him the skill books | [22:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron> i guess no player has eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil yet << quite exactly! | [22:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron well he could buy 'em, but i mean... so what ? what do you otpimize for even ? | [22:47] |
| danielpbarron: | and to continue that analogy, work is still relatively easy in the world of Eulora | [22:47] |
| danielpbarron: | yes he would buy them, but who would sell so many? | [22:47] |
| danielpbarron: | or are those books easy to make? | [22:47] |
| danielpbarron: | with plentiful blueprints | [22:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, what was it, 100k ish each ? not the end of the world. | [22:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah there is that. | [22:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower> So if characters can die << the idea is you get married or kidnap and rape some slavegirl or something and have kids. then the family passes on as it were. | [22:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | dynastic game. | [22:49] |
| DicePower: | LOL | [22:49] |
| DicePower: | Passes on your character's inherent stat values?\ | [22:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. it'll be complicated. | [22:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | suffice it to say you'll want a lot of kids to have a good litter to pick from, and the services of witches, mages and oracles will come in handy. | [22:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | but the trade in mates is intended to be a major economic factor. | [22:51] |
| DicePower: | Which is along the same lines as re-rolling your original character over and over to get a good one. | [22:51] |
| DicePower: | If there is some way to text your own stat values for free. | [22:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | pretty much, except as an in-game mechanic rather than an inept metagame minimaxing thing | [22:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, come in already, ima give you some starter stuff. | [22:52] |
| DicePower: | Do you know if these inherent stat points are fixed in number and distributed in different in ways, or if the total number varies? | [22:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | of course i know. i designed it. | [22:53] |
| DicePower: | Oh nice :D | [22:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | all i'm gonna say about it is that it's fucking brilliant. | [22:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower> If I can find a list of the inherent stat values online somewhere, I might try to come up with a formula to reverse engineer the values. << aaaahahahaha. o god. you should read the old logs where we're trying to answer much simpler question,s uich as "what is the fair value of this here item" or "is higher skill better than lower skill" | [22:54] |
| DicePower: | rofl! | [22:54] |
| danielpbarron: | wait.. is that weird tree supposed to be the one with forbidden fruit? | [22:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | really, it's nice you're into science, but prepare for a monstrous task ahead of you. afaik not a single thing has been reversewd yet. | [22:56] |
| DicePower: | Can you say this much, can a character reach an optimized hidden stat level through game play, or are some characters born better than others, with no way to adjust the difference except by rolling a new character? | [22:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's more like, there's optimal jobs for various players, which is your taks to determine. | [22:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | much like irl. | [22:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | nobody offs himself to "Be reborn" because he wasn't born a blonde | [22:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | instead, finds a job a brunette can do. | [22:57] |
| DicePower: | Okay, I think I understand. | [22:57] |
| DicePower: | It's going to drive me crazy, but I get it :P | [22:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | but hey, the numeric method is the numeric method, go knock yourself out. | [22:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | the game, much like nature, answers all questions, in its own wya. | [22:58] |
| DicePower: | If I DID come up with a formula somehow, it would become like Pokemon I think. | [22:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | howssat ? | [22:59] |
| DicePower: | Where you just have to keep resetting until you get the stats you want. | [22:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | (i've never played pokemon) | [22:59] |
| DicePower: | I played the old Pokemon games, which had a similar system of inherent stat values. | [22:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | in general - it's more likely you;'ll find a better solution in game than outside the game. | [23:00] |
| danielpbarron: | i have pokemon red for original gameboy | [23:00] |
| DicePower: | So I guess there are two ways that one might want to approach the game. | [23:02] |
| DicePower: | The first would be to find a task that their character is skilled at. | [23:02] |
| DicePower: | This would be like the real life analogy. | [23:02] |
| danielpbarron: | you'd be the first | [23:03] |
| DicePower: | The other would be to decide what tasks they want to be good at in advanced, and produce a character that's good for those tasks. | [23:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | eh | [23:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | did it just crap out ? | [23:03] |
| danielpbarron: | bah, it did | [23:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | da fuck was this. | [23:03] |
| danielpbarron: | i was mid build on an ordinary, luckily i locked the claim! | [23:04] |
| danielpbarron: | (best tip ever) | [23:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | :) | [23:04] |
| danielpbarron: | well now's a good time to test tinkering without the skill | [23:04] |
| danielpbarron: | DicePower, make a character and let's have you craft something real quick | [23:05] |
| DicePower: | Hmm, don't think I'm gonna try again tonight, but will get with you to test it out before I get the skill. | [23:06] |
| danielpbarron: | well thing is i'm pretty sure it'll crash the server | [23:07] |
| danielpbarron: | so it would be best to do it right after a reset | [23:07] |
| danielpbarron: | as it surely woudln't make anyone pissed off | [23:07] |
| DicePower: | haha | [23:07] |
| danielpbarron: | right now whatever foxy was doing is now stopped | [23:07] |
| danielpbarron: | haven't been able to test yet because so far all new players enthusiastically eat up their skill items as soon as they get them | [23:08] |
| danielpbarron: | even bagels7 who i specifically instructed before hand not to do | [23:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol at the rate this guy is going... full weekend to get past the "pick m/f and write down your name" screen... | [23:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | he'll be lvl 1 in some skill in no time. 2020-2030, something there. | [23:10] |
| DicePower: | Yeah, I'm reeeeeeally slow when I start a new game :P | [23:10] |
| DicePower: | Don't want to do anything wrong lol | [23:10] |
| DicePower: | Like to be very awake when I start and such | [23:11] |
| DicePower: | danielpbarron: I'm not a Biblical scholar or anything of the sort, but I'm reading the context in Romans 9, and looking at commentary Online, and it seems to me that the intention of Romans 9:20 is not to teach God's sovereignty in the context of explaining free will, but to teach God's sovereignty in deciding to allow gentiles to be saved, as opposed to the saved being determined by birthright. | [23:21] |
| DicePower: | I'm skeptical that a view of free will is being taught here, even though the analogy given in the verse doesn't enter freedom of the will into play. | [23:23] |
| danielpbarron: | Romans 9 makes reference to the hardening of Pharoh's heart in the time of Moses | [23:31] |
| DicePower: | yes | [23:31] |
| danielpbarron: | you should also be skeptical that "free wll" is taught anywhere in The Bible | [23:33] |
| DicePower: | Well I don't think it needs to be. I have a very strong sense of having free will in my every day life. I would need a pretty compelling Scriptural reason to explain away my belief in freedom of the will, because I experience it every day. | [23:37] |
| DicePower: | But | [23:37] |
| DicePower: | I DO think many things in the Bible strongly imply free will. | [23:37] |
| DicePower: | In a libertarian sense. | [23:37] |
| danielpbarron: | how could you know such a thing | [23:37] |
| danielpbarron: | can the God who created you not also make you believe that you decide things on your own? | [23:38] |
| DicePower: | I take it as a basic belief, in the way I take "not living in the Matrix" as a basic believe. The fact that I live in a real world is grounded in my everyday experience, so I think I'm rational to accept it until I have a reason to give up the belief. | [23:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, seems the db server died. this may take a little. | [23:39] |
| DicePower: | Similarly, it seems rational to accept that we have freedom of the will based on our experience, unless there is a reason to give that belief up. | [23:40] |
| danielpbarron: | DicePower, to your credit : you can only believe in the God I have described if He ~makes~ you believe | [23:40] |
| danielpbarron: | a sort of catch-22 if you will | [23:40] |
| DicePower: | Just to be clear, I do think we're talking about the same God. I don't want to be confusing and imply that your God is a different God because of a disagreement over a certain doctrine. | [23:42] |
| danielpbarron: | but it is exactly that, a different god | [23:42] |
| danielpbarron: | my God makes people believe in Him or not, and yours doesn't | [23:42] |
| DicePower: | I'm not sure that makes the two descriptions "different Gods," any more than two biographies of someone that conflict on a couple minor details are describing different persons. | [23:44] |
| DicePower: | Are they? | [23:44] |
| danielpbarron: | well one or both of the biographies in your example are wrong | [23:45] |
| DicePower: | Much less two interpretations of the SAME biography. | [23:45] |
| DicePower: | Correct | [23:45] |
| DicePower: | One or both are wrong. | [23:46] |
| DicePower: | But they're describing the same person. | [23:46] |
| DicePower: | Are they not? | [23:46] |
| danielpbarron: | how can a biography be wrong and yet still describe the person it claims to describe | [23:46] |
| danielpbarron: | rather, it is describing a false personal invented by the author | [23:47] |
| danielpbarron: | person* | [23:47] |
| danielpbarron: | fictitious even | [23:48] |
| DicePower: | That seems bizarre to me, if you say "Greg left the house early to go for a jog" and it turns out that he actually went for a drive, the name "Greg" in your sentence was still referring to the same person you refer to in true sentences about him, isn't it? | [23:50] |
| DicePower: | Similarly, if one person says "Julie has 1000 hairs on her head," and another says "Julie has 10001 hairs on her head," they're both referring to the same Julie? | [23:50] |
| danielpbarron: | imagine they said a wrong thing about you | [23:54] |
| DicePower: | sure | [23:54] |
| danielpbarron: | and you were here to defend yourself, but they insisted anyway | [23:54] |
| danielpbarron: | even saying "he spells his name 'DicePowerr'" | [23:55] |
| danielpbarron: | it's not a strange concept, to have false gods. The Bible mentions many | [23:58] |
| danielpbarron: | believers of which are convinced that these gods have powers | [23:58] |
| danielpbarron: | sacrificing to them and worshipping them | [23:58] |
| DicePower: | Right | [23:58] |
| danielpbarron: | if asked, they would say "mine is the true God" | [23:58] |
| danielpbarron: | but they are clearly not describing the True God | [23:59] |
Comments feed: RSS 2.0