#ossasepia Logs for 29 Oct 2019

April 20th, 2020 by Diana Coman
diana_coman: ossabot got a maintenance reset to stop logging #pizarro and start logging #trinque ; since I was at it, I've added for now the tiny .ico pics too so no more broken icons; if only all the rest was as easy to un-break as this. [11:24]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-28 18:28:34 PeterL: diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log I get broken picture icon for "young hands" and "ossasepia" at the top of the page, is that expected? [11:24]
whaack: diana_coman: i'm finishing the saltmines grind that i began yesterday today & half of tomorrow. (i don't consider it #1, it's just easier for me to get it over with at the beginning of the week) i will then prioritize fixing my understanding of the selection tool & write a post examining the root cause of why i use power tools without rtfm first. That being said, I want to make sure that I am taking my V post in the right direction [11:55]
whaack: . My thesis for the post is that prior to V, the SOP for deploying was, in V terms, to _always_ regenesis. I am then using that thesis to discuss the importance of context for text/software. [11:55]
diana_coman: whaack: saltmines schedule/packing is fine; re V post, I don't quite see what you aim at there; I suppose you could look at it as "software had no traceable/recoverable/verifiable history at all" but it's rather a stretch to say there was any sort of genesis as genesis/regenesis already implies some V concepts that simply did not exist. [12:08]
diana_coman: I can understand why you might be looking for a neat description of previous state to help you structure & discuss but that doesn't mean you can just force-fit anything on some flimsy basis of similarity. [12:09]
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I plan to start actively maintaining #agriculturalsupremacy if you are inclined to point a logger at it [12:11]
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: oh hey, not-bad; mind publishing a post re the what and how of that? I'd love to read it and I'd certainly point the logger + move the bot to it [12:11]
PeterL: whaack: before v was written it was possible (and it still is) to do the steps by hand to verify authenticity of patches [12:12]
diana_coman: also, BingoBoingo , trinque, lobbes why won't you *ask* MP for a license for your castles? if anything, this was my only initial hesitation re adding the chans - it would make more sense to have them licensed, no? [12:12]
diana_coman: PeterL: v is not just an implementation, what the ever loving fuck! [12:13]
PeterL: well, yes, I meant before the first v implementation [12:13]
diana_coman: PeterL: and pretty please, go and write your thesis on the topic on your own blog before confusing newcomers, will you? [12:13]
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will ask for the license after getting the mission statement, J-school course proposal done. Depending on what surprises today has it should be 18-48 hours. [12:13]
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: great to hear that! and I'll read it whenever it's ready [12:14]
whaack: diana_coman: You're right, I guess genesis is a bad term. Because a genesis explicitly states that there is no prior context, whereas old state was just "here's a clump of software" [12:15]
diana_coman: PeterL: myeah, you meant the first implementation as if *that* is meaningful there at all; go and write, ask for feedback, do some work first, it's not that hard. [12:15]
diana_coman: whaack: and moreover genesis is now a V term-of-art. [12:16]
PeterL: sure, I will write something re v to my blog [12:16]
diana_coman: PeterL: go ahead. [12:17]
diana_coman: PeterL: note also that this sort of in-here-but-not-quite-in-here won't end up well; make up your mind and either commit properly or lurk in there in silence as I won't have you or anyone else talk over people who actually committed and are busy at work, wtf. [12:20]
whaack: diana_coman: right. My point is to describe the previous state in terms of V. "hey, if you're just checking the sig on a package and nothing else, that's pretty similar to building just a genesis patch with V. and the only way you can be sure your software is from a trusted source is if you download one big clump that includes the whole enchilada: os, compiler, ect" [12:20]
diana_coman: whaack: note that there is also the diff re checking the sig on a binary package or a source package, at the very least; I'd say figure out (and possibly restrict as needed) your scope there well, as it can easily end up a huge scope to cover; not to say the exploration itself won't be useful to you, but be aware of what you're looking at in there. [12:22]
diana_coman: PeterL: and for completion, the application 2-steps process applies to you just the same as to any newcomer (if anything, due to do-nothing history, you start with a minus compared to them). [12:25]
whaack: diana_coman: i am aware of the diff re checking sig on binary or source, i am treating the 'previous state' as the protocol where one signs the source or at least zip of the source (although i admit this is often not the case for 'teh industry') [12:28]
diana_coman: whaack: and moreover, even if there is a sig, there is in fact no identity attached to it because no wot (and see how this expands your scope all of a sudden? because yes, everything is related, ofc); recall the github and "sig" or "verified" thing? [12:30]
diana_coman: whaack: tbh I'd say that the previous field was basically so muddled up that it's not really sane or worth it to try and approach it in such a clean way - it's more likely only to muddle you up than anything else. [12:31]
diana_coman: I need to go for a bit, I'll be back in an hour or so. [12:32]
whaack: diana_coman: although i'm sure the layman way is to download the pub key seconds before its used for verification, people could be building software in the 'old paradigm' with only keys from their wot [12:33]
diana_coman: whaack: if you go with "could be" then they could be building v, sure; except they don't, and going with "could be" is really wishful thinking if not worse. [12:34]
diana_coman: will bbl [12:34]
whaack: diana_coman: for when you get back, the tools were in place for a seekrit society to have an internal wot. gpg says 'who dafuq is this?' when you import a new key. in other words, if all you see around you in your neighborhood are people 'hammering in nails with microscopes', you can still inference with reasonable probability of being right that somewhere in the world someone is studying microbes, seeing as you know that there doe [12:44]
whaack: s in fact exist a microscope. [12:44]
diana_coman: whaack: that doesn't hold, no; having gpg key is not at all having microscope; it's more like having lenses perhaps; and if you go that route, you can equally say neandarthalians ALSO had microscope (and secret societies and V, why not) because look, sand hence silica everywhere, hence lenses, hence microscope, hence etc) [13:41]
diana_coman: whaack: you can say it the other way around ie the above V is not just an implementation : sure you can have your wot and a manual "V" and so on, yes; but the direction is always from having first the concepts to using them with whatever tools available, no inference holds the other way around precisely because concepts&knowledge are more than one-or-another mechanical ... [13:49]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-29 12:13:17 diana_coman: PeterL: v is not just an implementation, what the ever loving fuck! [13:49]
diana_coman: ... tool, those are not just equal parts. [13:49]
diana_coman: whaack: if you really must, you can perhaps look for proto-practices that could be traced as some sort of ancestors of V (as nothing quite appears entirely out of nowhere either) but I'm not all that sure that pays off or really helps you a lot there. [13:56]
dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Oct-2019#1007844 << thank you. I'll be ready, looking forward to it. [14:06]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-28 17:04:23 diana_coman: dorion: re footnotes 1 and 2 - it's totally fine, no worries; and it does the job well too, we'll talk tomorrow evening. [14:06]
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-29#1007867 << I plan to ask for a license, though atm I am 100\% focused on meeting my Nov 3rd deadline for mp-wp-bot delivery. Will apply for castlehood once that passes [14:14]
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-29 15:11:03 diana_coman: also, BingoBoingo , trinque, lobbes why won't you *ask* MP for a license for your castles? if anything, this was my only initial hesitation re adding the chans - it would make more sense to have them licensed, no? [14:14]
lobbes: but in general I agree, you don't know until you ask [14:15]
ericbot: (trilema) 2019-10-04 mp_en_viaje: so if you don't know, ask ; i'll either give you the thing or else tell you why not, at which point ~you'll fucking know why not~. see ? [14:15]
lobbes: is guilty of operating under this "assume first" mode before; never serves well [14:16]
diana_coman: indeed it never does. [14:19]
jfw: Hi diana_coman. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Oct-2019#1007845 - confused on this; are you saying the estimates were sane but not sane enough, or the tools too insane for estimating to even be possible, or what? [14:26]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-28 17:55:20 diana_coman: jfw: "At least for one stage Robinson guessed 1.5h, I guessed 7, both ran way over" - ahahaha, this is good for the quotes collection. The sad part of it though being of course that both of you have in fact sane (and experience-revealing, hence the difference) estimates for what the whole thing should be; but there's not enough sane around for the estimates to work even when tempered by some experience. [14:26]
diana_coman: jfw: his estimate was that of a sane but inexperienced person expecting a sane environment; it's reasonable to expect to be able to install that in 1.5 hours, what, it shouldn't take a day, a week, a lifetime; your estimate was equally sane but tempered by your experience with computers - obviously more than 1.5hours but still something more or less manageable; nevertheless, the environment being rather insane, it didn't fit into any ... [14:29]
diana_coman: ... sane estimates whether padded by experience or not. [14:29]
diana_coman: jfw: does that make sense? [14:29]
jfw: yep, ty. [14:34]
dorion: diana_coman standing by, fyi, but also no rush as my schedule is dedicated to our convo this afternoon. [15:34]
diana_coman: dorion: in about 40 minutes. [15:35]
dorion: cool, ty. [15:36]
diana_coman: dorion: I'm here though on apparently rather rocky net connection all of a sudden (so if I vanish, you'll know UK is worse than Panama) [16:19]
dorion: diana_coman heh, thanks for the heads up. where ought we start ? [16:20]
diana_coman: dorion: do walk me through that mud first: how did you two actually end up in #o ? [16:22]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 18:26:07 diana_coman: dorion: you'll have to explain to me tomorrow that pull because in the end between the two of you pulling/pushing one another, it's all as clear as mud who did what here. [16:22]
dorion: well, jfw entered after interaction with lobbes. [16:23]
diana_coman: that doesn't sound like you pulling both , lol [16:24]
dorion: I came to realize it wasn't just about developing programmers (although I'm not opposed to understanding tech at a deeper level). [16:25]
diana_coman: oh my, if I ever start "developing programmers" do me a favour and shoot me. [16:25]
dorion: well, the pulling dates date further, prior to #o. since 2015 or so. [16:25]
dorion: we'd been back on forth about attempting to motivate ourselves/each other to speak up, which then was overcome by this july. [16:27]
diana_coman: dorion: good, so start from there: from your outlines I gather you heard something related as early as 2013/2014; what was that and how/why did it click only in ...uhm, 2019. [16:27]
dorion: well, in 2013 (iirc) there was THE conference and evoorhees and mjr (josh rossi (satoshi square at the time), who moved to panama and worked for coinapult) attended [16:29]
diana_coman: heh, might be a different THE conference around those parts but go ahead. [16:29]
dorion: they mentioned it offhand, back then the learning curve was much much steeper for my window-head. [16:30]
dorion: diana_coman there's a pic on trilema, title is about conspiracy theories. [16:30]
diana_coman: but as in what, "there's that weird Romania country" or what? I can't quite imagine exactly what-other-than-mp would get mentioned at a bitcoin conf about Ro, lolz [16:30]
dorion: as in mp hosted. [16:31]
diana_coman: dorion: yep, there is; voorhees attended a btc conference, yes [16:31]
dorion: s.dice was still in action, I believe. [16:31]
diana_coman: ah, so it was along the lines "been there too"? [16:32]
dorion: it wasn't stressed by them for the importance that is was, or at least I didn't infer the importance. [16:32]
diana_coman: I rather expect it was them preferring to not "notice" the importance but nevermind [16:33]
dorion: coinapult people were more apt to discuss/reference reddit/twitter , etc. [16:33]
diana_coman: ugh; that's the other thing: how on earth did you stay there that long? [16:34]
diana_coman: (and myeah, I'm not surprised at all) [16:35]
diana_coman: at their "reference" I mean [16:35]
dorion: as far as my own latency post coinapult, i.e. since 2015, I was opened up to essentially a whole new world , not only technically, but politically the latter being more challenging at first. [16:36]
dorion: you see, I was deep down the rabbit whole of libertarism/anarchocapitalism, i.e. rule, but no rulers. [16:36]
diana_coman: dorion: ah, I see. [16:37]
dorion: this was primarily driven from material from stefan molyneux (freedomainradio.com). [16:37]
dorion: he made an attempt at universal ethics, a book called universally preferrable behaviour, which aims to universalize the non-agreesion principle. [16:38]
diana_coman: fwiw with all of you referencing this guy + that shiff, I did go and try to read them but barfed rather quickly. [16:39]
dorion: his primarily focus is on self-knowledge, the family, childraising, which I swallowed whole and acted on. [16:40]
dorion: I can see your barf, so you perhaps can see me finding tmsr from the other side. [16:40]
diana_coman: so how did it go with tmsr/the logs: was it you or jacob finding them? was it you or jacob deciding it was important? then the trouble speaking up - what are/were your main hangups? [16:42]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-29 16:27:29 dorion: we'd been back on forth about attempting to motivate ourselves/each other to speak up, which then was overcome by this july. [16:42]
diana_coman: (and yes, attempting here among other things to put together your picture from the other side) [16:43]
dorion: right now I don't have any hangups, this past week or so has been quite healthy/invigorating. [16:44]
diana_coman: glad to hear it :) [16:44]
dorion: the hangups were a self-perpetuating cycle: started in the freeze lobe of fight/flight/freeze response [16:46]
dorion: this is important, but I imagine/assume my past is 'sewage in the wine' [16:47]
dorion: I'll do work on the side to apply what I've learned from the reading (which I've done), but talk 'tomorrow'. [16:47]
diana_coman: (I noticed you wrote that in the outlines re your past but that's a bit silly really; we'll get back to it in a bit and clarify) [16:48]
dorion: then there was the excuse that jfw ought to join too. i'll wait for him to be ready. instead of getting in which'd caused him to get in. [16:49]
dorion: which is what eventually happened, but quite late. so there is some scar tissue to work through, but what've my 20s been if not several deep transformations. [16:50]
dorion: diana_coman it's clear as day now how silly it has been, but when amygdala is hyperactive, cortex has less influence. [16:51]
diana_coman: dorion: you see, that's the thing, when you say "my past" you forget that it includes not only coinapult and assorted similars but also all your own growth and following your own mind and finding your feet from what I gathered from those outlines [16:52]
diana_coman: heh, yes; listen, I'm not trying to find fault or assign blame; just to fully figure out where you are. [16:53]
dorion: right, I dove head first into some relatively risky ventures on a lot of faith; not to mention turmoil in personal relationships; had me in a gun shy loop. [16:54]
dorion: I don't "regret" going for it when i did, I accept that's who I was and was making the best decision I knew of at the junctures. [16:55]
diana_coman: dorion: all right, so you pushed jacob first; and kept reading from the side; bought those fg and still not saying anything; then finally jacob said something, got via lobbes here and then? [16:55]
diana_coman: (good for you, there's absolutely no point to regrets) [16:56]
dorion: diana_coman then I was prioritizing installing trb on the rockchip, manaloning (while bouncing some ideas of jfw) as it were. [16:57]
diana_coman: avoidance via trb, lolz [16:57]
dorion: with #t and piz going dark, seemed I'd be noise during the fire fighting. [16:58]
diana_coman: and I thought you were the manager there! [16:58]
dorion: then avoidance by mp-wp [16:58]
diana_coman: heh [16:58]
dorion: I'm manager by necessity, not because I'm a master or have even been trained by masters, quite the contrary in fact. [16:59]
diana_coman: eh, where would one find masters now really [16:59]
dorion: in #o [16:59]
diana_coman: you have a ton of smarts basically [17:00]
dorion: stumbling on some humble response [17:01]
diana_coman: dorion: still, jacob had to pull/push for you to join; why or what was that? [17:01]
dorion: final shreds of 'mediocity being intellengence aimed at self-preservation' [17:03]
dorion: s/intellengence/intelligence/ lol [17:03]
diana_coman: lol, ok; what was exactly this that you read enough ? [17:04]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 16:32:57 dorion: diana_coman ok. I've read enough to know I want in. [17:04]
dorion: your conduct in general and this log in particular. the patience, but assertiveness. [17:05]
diana_coman: so you read the full log or what? [17:06]
dorion: conduct as read from #t and your blog. I've not read #e [17:06]
dorion: I didn't read the full #o log, but enough to trust. [17:06]
diana_coman: #e at the moment is quite quiet; and at any rate, the talk there is more eulora-play than anything else otherwise. [17:06]
dorion: as I'd gathered from various peaks. [17:06]
dorion: (i've not gone silent, just don't have more to add at present on this point) [17:09]
diana_coman: dorion: you said somewhere (and can't find atm the ref but if you don't recall, I'll look for it) that you invested in the strong tech arm - that seemed to be however jacob so I'm a bit confused there [17:10]
diana_coman: what exactly is this current business of yours? [17:10]
dorion: the strong tech arm is I've improved my skills/understanding through working with jfw and been patient (perhaps pathologically) with the time it was taken. [17:11]
diana_coman: (and re patience, see no patience with idiots lolz) [17:11]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-18 16:57:25 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Sep-2019#1002972 - ftr, I do NOT advise newcomers to believe this; there is also for instance the very short life of Bubico Garson (aka zmk) http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-07-29#1925422 [17:11]
dorion: the current business is a training program + hardware and software. the motto is personal sovereignty through digial security. our target clients know this is important, don't know where to start, but are willing/able to invest in their education/skills. [17:13]
diana_coman: dorion: and how is it structured, are you two equal partners there or what? is it just you 2? [17:14]
dorion: so far none have had prior command line experience, so that's were were start them. over 25 90 minute sessions + homework, they develop system admin skills, compile the entire system, including coreboot, openbsd on edgerouter, then work on trb, gpg, etc. [17:15]
dorion: it's the two of us and we're equal partners. [17:16]
diana_coman: all right; what would be the longer trade relationships? [17:17]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 18:08:41 diana_coman: jfw: what trade is that meant to be re "longer term trade relationships"? more/further training or what? [17:17]
dorion: essentially, jfw has the technology and curriculum development development and training ; I have sales, admin, and working on my training skills. [17:17]
diana_coman: dorion: put that way, you need a 3rd person to do management, lolz. [17:18]
dorion: the idea is there we will reach a threshold of resourceful people that trust us at which point we can develop further business with them rather than continuing to focus on noobs. for example, panama has a somewhat deep btc-tide dollar otc market, but many rely on whatsapp to coordinate. [17:19]
dorion: you need a 3rd person to do management << i guess it's telling I didn't list that as my primary responsibility, but that's on me too. [17:20]
diana_coman: dorion: why/where from this single focus on running an exchange basically? (it's not necessarily bad, just ...not the only thing) [17:21]
dorion: panama also has a history of privacy/asset protection that has been substantially undermined and many are resentful of the undermining, but don't know how to proceed. [17:21]
diana_coman: so you basically say that you have there a good market for that, right? [17:22]
dorion: right. [17:23]
diana_coman: ok; did you ever read hanbot's posts (as MPOE-PR) on bitcointalk? canonical ref [17:24]
dorion: we're not fixed on exchange idea, but seems logical that once we get clients comfortable with trb and trusting us, we'd be central in that network. [17:25]
dorion: I've read many mpoe-pr posts, the one that always cut the deepest was 'talking about Bitcoin now matter how loud, does not make you part of Bitcoin' [17:26]
dorion: it would be good to do another review, proper this time via my blog. [17:26]
diana_coman: yes, it might even work; honestly, I have no concrete idea re panama and otherwise just this rather iffy-smell of "where clueless moneyed wannabee so-called-bitcoiners congregate"; but you are the ones there and to the extent that you do find actual people to build up, there's nothing a priori wrong with it or anything of the sort [17:27]
diana_coman: and btw, what's, how was it called... "bitcoin embassy" in panama? [17:27]
dorion: there are a lot of wannabees , give off get rich quick negative signal to the relatively high class circles , we're aiming to create a new market for the higher class, not deal with derps. [17:29]
diana_coman: good and quite glad to hear it in clear. [17:30]
dorion: that bitcoin embassy shit down, maybe last year, I don't know was never involved and the operators ran into legal trouble with there related business I hear. [17:30]
diana_coman: well, I never heard of any actual related business but anyways, lol.z [17:31]
dorion: when I started with coinapult, I'd talk, after getting burned I decided I need to sit down stfu and understand. but that became habit I'm now replacing. [17:31]
diana_coman: as usual, balance is rather more productive, yes. [17:32]
dorion: the business was cryptobuyer.com , that oneway machine in the panama makes me ill article , the machine that only buys dollars, lol. [17:33]
diana_coman: and it's out of them or something, yes. [17:33]
diana_coman: dorion: you mentioned some accounting course for which you didn't quite study though - did you still complete it or what's the status there? [17:33]
dorion: I didn't complete it, I have all the books. It's chartered financial analyst, level 1. [17:34]
dorion: it's a global, independent organization. there are 3 levels to receive the charter. [17:35]
diana_coman: and with the reading of management stuff - did you already go through MP's public experience or what are you aiming for there? [17:35]
dorion: I didn't have a good plan there and it covers quite a bit, including topics that're mainly relevant to fiat fianance, e.g. gaap. [17:36]
diana_coman: I don't know what gaap is. [17:37]
diana_coman: as I was saying earlier, the Master in Management is MP really, I claim no real management title for myself. [17:38]
diana_coman: dorion: anyways, what/how do you think I can help you? [17:39]
dorion: MP's public experience has made many impressions, but I can't say I've gone through it systematically (no blog was a real problem). this drucker book, 'management: task, responsibilities, practices' is an encyclopedia and I've found many of the points drucker makes MP makes as well. [17:39]
diana_coman: (sounds reference-style book so possibly not-bad; at any rate, it won't be difficult to get a list of refs for you from people who know more, surely) [17:40]
dorion: diana_coman I accept my mind needs to be sharpened, and you're the sharpener. [17:40]
dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Oct-2019#1006468 [17:40]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:36:16 dorion: diana_coman as for why I'm here: to sharpen myself for sound money and sane computing. [17:40]
diana_coman: dorion: funnily enough with you, if anything, I'd need to ask you to stop beating yourself *that* much black and blue, lolz [17:41]
dorion: I want my blind spots exposed and rectified to become more complete and stronger version of myself. [17:41]
diana_coman: beating your stupidity out of you is fine and good but breaking your own arms in the process is not that great [17:42]
dorion: hahaha. well that's a blind spot then! [17:42]
diana_coman: I'll end up making dorion-rule: thou shall *not* covet another man's thrashing! [17:43]
diana_coman: those are made to measure so what's yours will be your size, no need to fit someone else's,lol [17:43]
dorion: hahaha. I'll follow that rule. [17:43]
diana_coman: dorion: part of it is that you tend/try to read so much in advance as to what it-could-possibly-fully-be that you may end up anywhere really, kind of hard to tell upfront. [17:44]
dorion: you see, going through the review it dawned on me that part of my log reading was a form of masochism. [17:45]
diana_coman: or are you trying to beat yourself first before another one has the chance? lolz [17:46]
dorion: diana_coman right, after enthusiastically leaping x 2 , a protection mechanism developed and jfw's 200 ft of solid rock further contributed. [17:47]
dorion: as much as we've helped each other, there's also been a shared dilusion. [17:47]
diana_coman: well yes, can't know what you don't know, sure. [17:48]
dorion: it was something like beating myself up prior to anyone else being able to. but I'm ready to work to let that go. [17:48]
diana_coman: dorion: you keep mentioning in your posts the coyness /inner coyote; what is this really about? [17:48]
diana_coman: dorion: aha, that's exactly what it looked like. [17:49]
dorion: mp has been using coy somewhat frequently recently, so it was fresh, but dates back to generally having a somewhat shy side. [17:50]
dorion: no surprise that usian childhood is so very artificial and unhealthy. [17:51]
diana_coman: well, I had such a extremely healthy childhood that I can't quite comment there, lol [17:52]
dorion: when I was younger, I mostly made friends through sports, where I was strong. [17:52]
diana_coman: and how does this coy/shy apply here? [17:53]
dorion: well primarily taking me such a long time to speak and exacerbated by the 'inner bully'. [17:54]
diana_coman: eh, speak, there's nothing worth keeping that you might lose just for the speaking; quite the opposite [17:55]
diana_coman: (and in fact the whole world to lose for keeping silent) [17:56]
diana_coman: dorion: say something. [17:59]
dorion: digging for a link, 1 sec. [17:59]
dorion: item iii. of http://trilema.com/2014/time-for-some-bitlicenses-of-our-own/ perhaps lead me to believe otherwise. but I should've asked rather than assumed. [18:01]
diana_coman: dorion: ahahaha, trilema-articles have lots of keys. [18:02]
dorion: perhaps more accurate to say my own stupidity lead me to believe otherwise [18:02]
diana_coman: dorion: but as with all other things, context is important of course; ie "speak" doesn't mean "say anything anywhere to anyone" [18:02]
dorion: I knew the key, but then was derping with the select on number iii which is tough since the repetition. [18:03]
diana_coman: it just means speak your mind clearly and openly when it's your turn. [18:03]
diana_coman: dorion: lol! [18:03]
dorion: diana_coman i think lack of context made lead it to making a deep impact I didn't understand. [18:04]
diana_coman: I can see how that could happen; what's with the Junto, does this overlap with your training/clients? [18:05]
dorion: but your clarification and further context I've since gathered makes sensee. [18:05]
dorion: the Junto was started among jfw and another friend here for mutual improvement, back in January 2018. distill and deliver valuable information to the group and excercise the communication muscles. it has since grown to 7 regulars and yes, 3 have become clients. [18:07]
diana_coman: good old human networking, what else; good for you. [18:08]
dorion: we were doing weekly up until summer, but have backed off to twice a month. we focus for two hours, then go for a meal/drinks. [18:09]
diana_coman: dorion: where are you as relationships with all the coinapult/similar former crowd? [18:09]
dorion: I've not keep up very much. I visited my friend Ashe in denver in 2017, saw Justin Blincoe there (coinapult coo/cfo turned shapeshift cfo), scored a free lift ticket from erik to a-basin, but didn't see him. [18:11]
diana_coman: that's not saying a lot either way; what do you think is/was the problem there anyway? [18:13]
dorion: I think the problem is they're aiming for the masses rather than elite. think bitcoin can/will/is for liberating poor. so they push fast-food technology. [18:15]
dorion: and operate as fiat companies primarily. [18:15]
diana_coman: dorion: so if tomorrow they magically agree with you to "aim for the elite", the business will work? [18:16]
dorion: the problem is they're not reading trilema seriously, think they know better. [18:16]
diana_coman: eh, how do you know they don't read it seriously or how do you even evaluate that? [18:17]
diana_coman: and what, they are hm, fine, enough money, serial entrepreneurs, all that, no? [18:17]
dorion: I don't know what would work and to what extent their reputation is damaged. but say evoorhees asks for !!up tomorrow in #t . [18:17]
diana_coman: aha, say he does. [18:17]
dorion: I evaluate there actions and what I can see, and as i type the negative space comes to mind. [18:18]
dorion: their* [18:18]
dorion: if he does, seems it depends on how the conversation goes, what causes are being acted from. [18:19]
diana_coman: dorion: the trouble is that people are what they are, each of them; just like there are no causes that can really transform a chicken into a hawk, there are also no causes that can possibly transform one from serial entrepreneur in fiat system to bitcoin independent mind [18:21]
dorion: i shouldn't say that they're not reading, cause I don't know. but I ask why was erik pushing segwit 2x in 2017 instead of linking to trilema and being present in the forum ? [18:21]
diana_coman: there might be those (and esp young ones) that are still searching and so end up in all places, it's not about where one has been but simply about what one does in a given situation [18:22]
dorion: diana_coman letting these sink in over here. [18:23]
diana_coman: dorion: because he is fully invested in that system, in a nutshell; it would be way too costly for him to "read trilema" in the way you mean it. [18:23]
dorion: I can see that. s.dice wasn't though and I'd wager shapeshift equity is smaller in his portfolio than btc proper, but he did catch the altcoin bug, which when I met him he was a 'maximalist', 'there can only be one.' [18:26]
dorion: whatever is going on in his brainbox, I can't control ; I'm not bitter nor have ill will. what I can and must control is my brainbox and acting from what I understand to be true, which I want to do better. [18:29]
dorion: the problem could be rooted in ESLism for all I know. [18:30]
diana_coman: dorion: eh, you have quite some learning to do for evals; at any rate, I don't wish on you that you end up at some point in the middle before you got to figure out clearly with whom you'd stand if need be, that's really the cause of the question. [18:31]
diana_coman: dorion: to ask it perhaps in a easier-to-answer way: what/how strong is still their current pull on you? [18:34]
dorion: diana_coman as in, if someone asked them about me, what'd they say ? oh, strike that I see, 'with whom I'd stand'. yes, I'm here committed to learning to act correctly. [18:34]
dorion: I've not kept up with them much. most I've not spoken with in a couple years. [18:35]
dorion: this is also what I ment by investing with jfw. and why I'm here. [18:37]
diana_coman: not like there's any interdiction on speaking to them or anything; the question is more whether you still find what to actually talk with them (other than generic chitchat really) if in the same room and if you are sure you'd rather be here than there. [18:38]
dorion: both in #o and panama. the former to strengthen myself and add whatever value I'm capable of giving back to tmsr. [18:38]
diana_coman: dorion: all right then, I think you had enough grilling and fair warning; I'll gladly take you on and I'll set you up on yh by the end of this week for sure. [18:39]
dorion: if/when i do talk to them, i'd be more about curiosity as to why they've not engaged rather than see what opportunities there'd be for me to fit myself into their system. [18:39]
diana_coman: dorion: you still have the series of posts so I think that'll keep you quite busy for now [18:40]
dorion: diana_coman I'm honored. and it was a pleasure. [18:40]
jfw: been following, cheers [18:40]
diana_coman: are you all right to plan those now? [18:40]
dorion: diana_coman I'll ask as soon as I find myself stuck. [18:40]
diana_coman: dorion: heh, good idea [18:41]
diana_coman: jfw: I saw you added a comment but I didn't yet get time to read it, I'll get to it in a bit but ask me here if there's something you need for this week's tasks [18:42]
dorion: fist pumps. [18:43]
diana_coman: dorion: welcome! and have fun. [18:43]
dorion: and jfw let's make a real cheers soon. [18:43]
jfw: diana_coman: mostly I listed the planned steps for writing, such as they are; certainly interested in your critique when you get the chance, doesn't have to be this minute tho. [18:45]
diana_coman: looks [18:46]
dorion: looking forward to the re-read, as in actual read, here. [18:47]
diana_coman: jfw: acutely missing from there is the perspective aka something to guide your structuring [18:48]
diana_coman: so you'll likely end up spending until Thursday/Friday reading forever more and accumulating notes/whatevers since there's always more to read/grab/do/avoid-thinking-of-the-ugly-how-the-fuck-do-I-do-this [18:49]
diana_coman: jfw: do me a favour and start not with archeology but with your own original goals and troubles and so on; you already know both the story and the ending there, so chart first the structure of how you're going to tell this and only *after that* and *at writing time* search for the needed references [18:50]
diana_coman: jfw: how about that? [18:50]
jfw: sounds more productive, yes [18:53]
diana_coman: jfw: so aim for an outline by tomorrow evening the latest, the actual writing Thurs/Fri, review Saturday and you're done [18:53]
jfw: alright [18:54]
diana_coman: you'll be fine, there's more rock under your foot than you imagine :) [18:54]
diana_coman: will be back tomorrow [18:54]
jfw: thanks, cya! [18:55]
BingoBoingo: has come to believe the "non-aggression principle" is the doom of that sort of crowd. It means they are doomed to suffer the stupid seeking to burden them. [20:41]

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