| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007629 - misclassification indeed. | [04:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-26 18:35:12 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007023 << Just realized I missed this question. Well, in our PM convo at the end of September I decided to pause my current study in diana_coman's school so as to gain an understanding of what, specifically, I would wish to gain from it. In my head I had lumped the penance posts under this set of study, though perhaps this was a misclassification | [04:13] |
| ericbot: | Logged on 2019-10-21 13:57:58 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002548 - lobbes, what ever happened to/with this? | [04:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-09-14 15:05:59 lobbes: diana_coman: interesting. I will do this, ty | [04:13] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007633 - is this the sort of fun that keeps you going or the sort that means you'll need a few days *after it* to be able to do anything useful again? | [04:17] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-26 18:47:29 whaack: diana_coman: I was just invited to go to Nicaragua next week from Thursday-Monday for a friend's birthday. (The same friend I was considering living with before) It looks like a++ fun, but it is quite a few days to give up. I am asking both for permission to go and guidance as to whether or not I should go. | [04:17] |
| diana_coman: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007641 - thank you trinque for stating this clearly for jfw ; he certainly has other things to do atm. | [04:20] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-26 23:36:56 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007554 << remember that it's an artifact, not a textbook. it's liable to teach you the wrong thing, possibly better off not touching it for now. | [04:20] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i admit i would need to take care to ensure it is the former and not the later | [11:02] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: honestly, it sounds like you'd be way better off *without* that, esp since you aren't really lacking holidays otherwise; maybe meet the guys sometime in CR before/after that trip rather than sink those days in it. | [11:36] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: alright i will not lack in seeing them, i see them multiple times a week in the surf. | [11:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: cool then; and btw, didn't you promise some photos/post of that wonderful view from your place? | [11:43] |
| whaack: | yes by EOD tomorrow latest! | [11:44] |
| diana_coman: | heh, all right. | [11:44] |
| whaack: | i'm going to go on a walk and grab some more photos, brb 30min | [11:45] |
| diana_coman: | enjoy! | [11:46] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: are you back from Hawaii? | [12:20] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I am back and will be available in roughly 2 hours. | [13:01] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: make that more like 4 hours or write it down and I'll read it around that time. | [13:05] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: see that comment I left on your blog and maybe answer that there first. | [13:05] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ack | [14:42] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/hawaii-communication/#comment-37 << answered and enlarged images | [16:16] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: ugh; listen: 1. use feedbot and subscribe to your own blog's comments at least so you actually see them more timely + you'll figure out why there's no need to ping 2. pics on blog have a medium size that fits your theme + linked to bigger size (IF that exists, you don't just enlarge a low res image ffs) ; mpwp even does that for you, dunno how you managed to mess it up there so badly. | [16:30] |
| diana_coman: | and you know, stop doing just the shape of things, there's a point to them and if you don't get the point, just doing the motions won't help any. | [16:31] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: this even strikes me as quite similar to your communication issue, it's almost as if you somehow interact/see the world quite flat/missing some dimensions entirely | [16:34] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: did you re-read those annotations of yours? | [16:36] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I discovered in Hawaii that image uploading is not working. I added img tags linked to images uploaded to another server. | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: just fix it, will you? | [16:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: yes, I will. | [16:37] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok I will use feedbot. | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: good; still: why use feedbot? | [16:40] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: because it will notify me in irc so I don't have to check my rss reader. | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so what? | [16:44] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: That said I saw your comment immediately after you left it, but didn't have large enough time slot where I could focus enough to respond until now. | [16:44] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: so that I can respond in a timely manner. | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? | [16:46] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-27 13:05:07 thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. | [16:46] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I don't know why this doesn't fit. | [16:49] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: I will have to step away in about 10 minutes. | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: so try to figure it out, like a puzzle if nothing else; take your time too but don't just remain stuck at "don't know"; it's part of your problem. | [16:51] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok I will spend some time to try to figure it out. | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. | [16:55] |
| thimbronion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007679 << diana_coman: are you referring to "direction" from here? | [16:58] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-27 16:46:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: hm? I don't get what you are asking | [16:58] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: when you say "direct," are you referring to me asking for direction on what to address in my plan and review? | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | thimbronion: the "to direct" in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007685 ? it's more general really; essentially when you get stuck and/or just go through the motion of a requested thing without (apparently) knowing what and why was the point requested. | [17:02] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-27 16:55:27 diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. | [17:02] |
| thimbronion: | diana_coman: ok. I will think about this some more. I have to step away now. | [17:03] |
| diana_coman: | all right. | [17:03] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) | [17:04] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: hm, it worked just a minute ago so possibly it just takes a bit of time? | [17:10] |
| asciilifeform: | possib | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | it depends on whether your rss announces immediately or not too; at any rate, I'll read in a bit. | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ty diana_coman . read when you have time. | [17:12] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes. i wrote them once, then corrected. then i waited ~5 hours and corrected them again. when i did my last proofread, i was quite dismayed at how bad it started. i felt i needed to do perhaps another 2nd wait and proofread, but i decided against it for the interest of time | [17:17] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: other than the proofread though - how useful do you think they'd be for someone new to V and/or to that code? | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: even more to the point - why did you annotate the code there? | [17:19] |
| whaack: | whaack: i annotated the code to demonstrate i understood what it was doing. i think the stupid part of my annotations is that i have notes on "every function". so for the very simple functions my annotations are just noise | [17:22] |
| whaack: | (err ^ quotes should not be there for "every function") | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: no, that's not really the problem; the issue starts from what you just said really: there always is a marked difference between saying/writing something to demonstrate your understanding vs saying/writing something to make a point/communicate some knowledge; and you need to take this step and move away from school-style to adult-style | [17:24] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yes, you are doing it because I ask it but there is a reason for which I asked for it and therefore there is a point to the task beyond demonstration of obeying the order, right? | [17:26] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: of course | [17:26] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: so if i understand correctly I need to structure the post with the idea in mind that the next person learning V has an easier time should they read my post, not just rewording the entire code (which is only going to make it more confusing) | [17:29] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: not even that exactly, heh; remember causes vs purposes? what you say would be focusing on a purpose and as such, you can't quite deliver because... how exactly do you know what "the next person learning V" needs to have an easier time? | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the thing is: the point of annotations are not to prove your understanding, no; the point of annotations are to illuminate that which is annotated, correct? | [17:31] |
| diana_coman: | is* | [17:31] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | sorry for the messed up grammar there, it's been a long and weird day here. | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so then that's your focus and measure at each step: does this annotation bring some more light on what this code does and how/why? | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: did you ever have the dubious pleasure of using windows help? (or similar) | [17:34] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i don't know what windows help is | [17:34] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: happy you! lol; ok, let me fabricate an example then, 1 sec | [17:35] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: that makes sense for the goal with annotating. i must admit i believe i do not fully grok the causes over purposes theme that is so often mentioned here | [17:35] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the clear dividing line there is time really; ie you have to base your decision on past or present, never on the future (because you can't possibly know it) | [17:37] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the windows-style help I had in mind makes free use of circular definitions in a nutshell; eg "enter your 10-digit hwoegt code" "what is a 10-digit hwoegt code?" "that is your code that has 10 digits and is hwoegt" | [17:40] |
| whaack: | lol | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | hmrc.gov.uk excels in such help too but I really don't want to look atm. | [17:41] |
| whaack: | is that like the paperclip guy? | [17:41] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: pretty much,yes; the paperclip guy is an animated version of nonsense-delivery including circular definitions and the like, so yes. | [17:42] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: but look that you have some good examples too in there e.g. note 11 goes in the right direction; possibly precisely because you were focusing on saying something there. | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: also note 9 is not-bad. | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: btw, 3 seems even wrong actually. | [17:47] |
| whaack: | takes a look | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ah, no; it's fine, I just misread, sorry. | [17:48] |
| whaack: | ok | [17:49] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so, would you be able to implement V now? | [17:50] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i don't see why not | [17:50] |
| diana_coman: | so do it then. | [17:50] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: okay i will make it #1 for next week | [17:50] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: may i try to write it in CL? | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: did you read the causes vs purposes canonical ref? | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: why not, it's your V :) | [17:53] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i have read it but i will read it again | [17:53] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: your point on time being the key factor sheds some light | [17:54] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: as i received your message about time being the dividing line i had just finished typing " my understanding of causes over purposes is ~ when studying a phenomena, there is little to gain pondering the question for what purpose does this occur? but instead one should ponder what caused it to occur." | [17:55] |
| diana_coman: | certainly; to start with, it can't possibly occur for a purpose anyway, how would that work | [17:56] |
| diana_coman: | it might be that someone did some action with some purpose in mind, sure, but that still doesn't mean the action occured for that purpose; it still occured from some causes. | [18:00] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i guess i was thinking the point is to try to find those causes instead of guess the purpose in mind | [18:01] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: but that might not be correct if you're studying the action because the purpose in mind is the cause of the action | [18:01] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: well, aiming to find what goes on in people's minds is rather iffy anyway, not sure you can "find" with any certainty such a thing really. | [18:04] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: right but that may be a separate problem from the causes vs purposes | [18:05] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: back to our example of V. can't one say switching my annotations from being 'to show i understand Stan's code' to 'to illuminate the meaning of the code' is simply switching my purpose? | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: thoughts are reactions themselves, you know? | [18:07] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: heh, one can say anything really | [18:09] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes re thoughts being reactions | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | you don't swith the annotations, you switch the way you approach the task: the 2nd approach focuses on the existing code and its clarity and improves on that, it starts from "how can I make this clearer?" | [18:11] |
| diana_coman: | you can however, pervert that into a purpose, sure; this is why I'm saying "one can say anything really"; it's possible to aim for whatever notion you may formulate as to "illuminated code" and so pursue that future-illumination, regardless of any causes. | [18:12] |
| jfw: | asciilifeform, spyked: http://younghands.club/2019/10/27/jfw-review-week-of-oct-21-2019/#footnote_1_120 re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007694 (and my apologies, I should have said here when I noticed) | [18:13] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-10-27 17:04:29 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: and nobody can give you a fool-proof statement of task as it were. | [18:13] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: okay i believe i understand better. you referred to c vs p because i said " oh so my approach to the task is to make it easier for the next person who learns V" but that is making a wild guess of what will be helpful in the future | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yes. | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: ah, so feedbot is actually down? | [18:14] |
| diana_coman: | spyked: ? | [18:14] |
| jfw: | ^ specifically sees eggog on loper-os | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: do you have your rss messed up somehow/ | [18:15] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: ty. i have to eat so i may be slow to respond for a bit. | [18:16] |
| jfw: | likewise grabbing a bite then back to remaining posts | [18:18] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: you know, it's actually enjoyable reading your review? | [18:19] |
| jfw: | why thank you diana_coman, felt good to get it out | [18:19] |
| jfw: | though I caught myself spinning for a sec on 'publish' button... "am I SURE sure sure?" | [18:21] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: the one part that hasn't been mentioned much around here yet but I start thinking might be relevant to you: it's important to prioritize and to do *that* well. | [18:21] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: heh; sure you're sure, what. | [18:23] |
| dorion: | prioritize prioritization ! | [18:23] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: ha, you know that's anyway even more your task as a manager than his, right? | [18:23] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [18:23] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman, jfw : i haven't made any changes to rss since last post | [18:24] |
| dorion: | diana_coman yes, and failing that over the years caused me to pull both of us in here. | [18:25] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: you'll have to explain to me tomorrow that pull because in the end between the two of you pulling/pushing one another, it's all as clear as mud who did what here. | [18:26] |
| asciilifeform: | actually strike that : loox like my doublequotes fix somehow broke it ( i get a mysterious eggog when loading feed , and not presently equipped to debug ) | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | but do finish first your post there, this can wait. | [18:27] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: ha! | [18:28] |
| dorion: | diana_coman aok, will think about how to clarify the mud. | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | don't worry, I'll ask you questions until it's clear. | [18:29] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'ma have to cut the thing open to fix, and 0\% chance of it happening today, been awake for 14+h already | [18:30] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: get some sleep better; I'm reading. | [18:30] |
| asciilifeform: | will be doing a bit moar numerics before may sleep , so if diana_coman has q's in next coupla hrs , will try to answer. | [18:31] |
| asciilifeform: | has also crate of 'dulaps' to unpack & test, but unlikely to today | [18:32] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform: I'm at the end of a long and weird day so I might need another pass tomorrow (and that won't happen until evening anyway) so don't count on immediate feedback, sorry. | [18:32] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: makes sense, got it | [18:32] |
| diana_coman: | "This document is doomed to be revised again. And probably yet again." - bwahahah; asciilifeform , I'll end up cribbing this for a set of quotes on younghands.club , lol. | [19:09] |
| whaack: | fff looks like next week i may have to abandon the ship on the digitalocean | [19:12] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: btw what does the f in there stand for? | [19:14] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: back at kb, catching up. F is for Frederick. | [19:15] |
| diana_coman: | thanks. | [19:21] |
| jfw: | You have an Irena there too, right? | [19:22] |
| diana_coman: | Irina, yes | [19:22] |
| diana_coman: | it's the Romanian/Russian form; the English equivalent would be Irene | [19:23] |
| jfw: | ah. Is Coman a Romanian name? Don't believe I've seen it often | [19:24] |
| diana_coman: | well, Romanian surnames are anyway haphazard because they are rather recent; fwiw it's not the usual form (Popescu as in Mircea Popescu is one of the most common + more usual ending escu, yes) | [19:25] |
| diana_coman: | traditionally nobody cared about surnames, it would always be literally, you are X of Y's (aka your father's ) and the usual question in villages goes exactly like that: whose are you? | [19:27] |
| jfw: | so much like the origin of '-son' I gather | [19:28] |
| jfw: | Anyway, these posts aren't gonna post themselves so I'd better hold my further curiosity for now. | [19:29] |
| diana_coman: | certainly; and for that matter similar reason as to Russian patronymics, obviously. | [19:29] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: heh, work well then. | [19:30] |
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