#ossasepia Logs for 27 Oct 2019

April 20th, 2020 by Diana Coman
diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007629 - misclassification indeed. [04:13]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 18:35:12 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007023 << Just realized I missed this question. Well, in our PM convo at the end of September I decided to pause my current study in diana_coman's school so as to gain an understanding of what, specifically, I would wish to gain from it. In my head I had lumped the penance posts under this set of study, though perhaps this was a misclassification [04:13]
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-21 13:57:58 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Sep-2019#1002548 - lobbes, what ever happened to/with this? [04:13]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-14 15:05:59 lobbes: diana_coman: interesting. I will do this, ty [04:13]
diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007633 - is this the sort of fun that keeps you going or the sort that means you'll need a few days *after it* to be able to do anything useful again? [04:17]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 18:47:29 whaack: diana_coman: I was just invited to go to Nicaragua next week from Thursday-Monday for a friend's birthday. (The same friend I was considering living with before) It looks like a++ fun, but it is quite a few days to give up. I am asking both for permission to go and guidance as to whether or not I should go. [04:17]
diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007641 - thank you trinque for stating this clearly for jfw ; he certainly has other things to do atm. [04:20]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 23:36:56 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Oct-2019#1007554 << remember that it's an artifact, not a textbook. it's liable to teach you the wrong thing, possibly better off not touching it for now. [04:20]
whaack: diana_coman: i admit i would need to take care to ensure it is the former and not the later [11:02]
diana_coman: whaack: honestly, it sounds like you'd be way better off *without* that, esp since you aren't really lacking holidays otherwise; maybe meet the guys sometime in CR before/after that trip rather than sink those days in it. [11:36]
whaack: diana_coman: alright i will not lack in seeing them, i see them multiple times a week in the surf. [11:41]
diana_coman: whaack: cool then; and btw, didn't you promise some photos/post of that wonderful view from your place? [11:43]
whaack: yes by EOD tomorrow latest! [11:44]
diana_coman: heh, all right. [11:44]
whaack: i'm going to go on a walk and grab some more photos, brb 30min [11:45]
diana_coman: enjoy! [11:46]
diana_coman: thimbronion: are you back from Hawaii? [12:20]
thimbronion: diana_coman: I am back and will be available in roughly 2 hours. [13:01]
thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. [13:05]
diana_coman: thimbronion: make that more like 4 hours or write it down and I'll read it around that time. [13:05]
diana_coman: thimbronion: see that comment I left on your blog and maybe answer that there first. [13:05]
thimbronion: diana_coman: ack [14:42]
thimbronion: diana_coman: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/hawaii-communication/#comment-37 << answered and enlarged images [16:16]
diana_coman: thimbronion: ugh; listen: 1. use feedbot and subscribe to your own blog's comments at least so you actually see them more timely + you'll figure out why there's no need to ping 2. pics on blog have a medium size that fits your theme + linked to bigger size (IF that exists, you don't just enlarge a low res image ffs) ; mpwp even does that for you, dunno how you managed to mess it up there so badly. [16:30]
diana_coman: and you know, stop doing just the shape of things, there's a point to them and if you don't get the point, just doing the motions won't help any. [16:31]
diana_coman: thimbronion: this even strikes me as quite similar to your communication issue, it's almost as if you somehow interact/see the world quite flat/missing some dimensions entirely [16:34]
diana_coman: whaack: did you re-read those annotations of yours? [16:36]
thimbronion: diana_coman: I discovered in Hawaii that image uploading is not working. I added img tags linked to images uploaded to another server. [16:37]
diana_coman: thimbronion: just fix it, will you? [16:37]
thimbronion: diana_coman: yes, I will. [16:37]
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok I will use feedbot. [16:39]
diana_coman: thimbronion: good; still: why use feedbot? [16:40]
thimbronion: diana_coman: because it will notify me in irc so I don't have to check my rss reader. [16:43]
diana_coman: thimbronion: so what? [16:44]
thimbronion: diana_coman: That said I saw your comment immediately after you left it, but didn't have large enough time slot where I could focus enough to respond until now. [16:44]
thimbronion: diana_coman: so that I can respond in a timely manner. [16:45]
diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? [16:46]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 13:05:07 thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. [16:46]
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't know why this doesn't fit. [16:49]
thimbronion: diana_coman: I will have to step away in about 10 minutes. [16:50]
diana_coman: thimbronion: so try to figure it out, like a puzzle if nothing else; take your time too but don't just remain stuck at "don't know"; it's part of your problem. [16:51]
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok I will spend some time to try to figure it out. [16:52]
diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. [16:55]
thimbronion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007679 << diana_coman: are you referring to "direction" from here? [16:58]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 16:46:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? [16:58]
diana_coman: thimbronion: hm? I don't get what you are asking [16:58]
thimbronion: diana_coman: when you say "direct," are you referring to me asking for direction on what to address in my plan and review? [16:59]
diana_coman: thimbronion: the "to direct" in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007685 ? it's more general really; essentially when you get stuck and/or just go through the motion of a requested thing without (apparently) knowing what and why was the point requested. [17:02]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 16:55:27 diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. [17:02]
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok. I will think about this some more. I have to step away now. [17:03]
diana_coman: all right. [17:03]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) [17:04]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, it worked just a minute ago so possibly it just takes a bit of time? [17:10]
asciilifeform: possib [17:10]
diana_coman: it depends on whether your rss announces immediately or not too; at any rate, I'll read in a bit. [17:11]
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman . read when you have time. [17:12]
whaack: diana_coman: yes. i wrote them once, then corrected. then i waited ~5 hours and corrected them again. when i did my last proofread, i was quite dismayed at how bad it started. i felt i needed to do perhaps another 2nd wait and proofread, but i decided against it for the interest of time [17:17]
diana_coman: whaack: other than the proofread though - how useful do you think they'd be for someone new to V and/or to that code? [17:18]
diana_coman: whaack: even more to the point - why did you annotate the code there? [17:19]
whaack: whaack: i annotated the code to demonstrate i understood what it was doing. i think the stupid part of my annotations is that i have notes on "every function". so for the very simple functions my annotations are just noise [17:22]
whaack: (err ^ quotes should not be there for "every function") [17:24]
diana_coman: whaack: no, that's not really the problem; the issue starts from what you just said really: there always is a marked difference between saying/writing something to demonstrate your understanding vs saying/writing something to make a point/communicate some knowledge; and you need to take this step and move away from school-style to adult-style [17:24]
diana_coman: whaack: yes, you are doing it because I ask it but there is a reason for which I asked for it and therefore there is a point to the task beyond demonstration of obeying the order, right? [17:26]
whaack: diana_coman: of course [17:26]
whaack: diana_coman: so if i understand correctly I need to structure the post with the idea in mind that the next person learning V has an easier time should they read my post, not just rewording the entire code (which is only going to make it more confusing) [17:29]
diana_coman: whaack: not even that exactly, heh; remember causes vs purposes? what you say would be focusing on a purpose and as such, you can't quite deliver because... how exactly do you know what "the next person learning V" needs to have an easier time? [17:30]
diana_coman: whaack: the thing is: the point of annotations are not to prove your understanding, no; the point of annotations are to illuminate that which is annotated, correct? [17:31]
diana_coman: is* [17:31]
whaack: diana_coman: yes [17:32]
diana_coman: sorry for the messed up grammar there, it's been a long and weird day here. [17:32]
diana_coman: whaack: so then that's your focus and measure at each step: does this annotation bring some more light on what this code does and how/why? [17:33]
diana_coman: whaack: did you ever have the dubious pleasure of using windows help? (or similar) [17:34]
whaack: diana_coman: i don't know what windows help is [17:34]
diana_coman: whaack: happy you! lol; ok, let me fabricate an example then, 1 sec [17:35]
whaack: diana_coman: that makes sense for the goal with annotating. i must admit i believe i do not fully grok the causes over purposes theme that is so often mentioned here [17:35]
diana_coman: whaack: the clear dividing line there is time really; ie you have to base your decision on past or present, never on the future (because you can't possibly know it) [17:37]
diana_coman: whaack: the windows-style help I had in mind makes free use of circular definitions in a nutshell; eg "enter your 10-digit hwoegt code" "what is a 10-digit hwoegt code?" "that is your code that has 10 digits and is hwoegt" [17:40]
whaack: lol [17:41]
diana_coman: hmrc.gov.uk excels in such help too but I really don't want to look atm. [17:41]
whaack: is that like the paperclip guy? [17:41]
diana_coman: whaack: pretty much,yes; the paperclip guy is an animated version of nonsense-delivery including circular definitions and the like, so yes. [17:42]
diana_coman: whaack: but look that you have some good examples too in there e.g. note 11 goes in the right direction; possibly precisely because you were focusing on saying something there. [17:45]
diana_coman: whaack: also note 9 is not-bad. [17:46]
diana_coman: whaack: btw, 3 seems even wrong actually. [17:47]
whaack: takes a look [17:47]
diana_coman: whaack: ah, no; it's fine, I just misread, sorry. [17:48]
whaack: ok [17:49]
diana_coman: whaack: so, would you be able to implement V now? [17:50]
whaack: diana_coman: i don't see why not [17:50]
diana_coman: so do it then. [17:50]
whaack: diana_coman: okay i will make it #1 for next week [17:50]
whaack: diana_coman: may i try to write it in CL? [17:52]
diana_coman: whaack: did you read the causes vs purposes canonical ref? [17:52]
diana_coman: whaack: why not, it's your V :) [17:53]
whaack: diana_coman: i have read it but i will read it again [17:53]
whaack: diana_coman: your point on time being the key factor sheds some light [17:54]
whaack: diana_coman: as i received your message about time being the dividing line i had just finished typing " my understanding of causes over purposes is ~ when studying a phenomena, there is little to gain pondering the question for what purpose does this occur? but instead one should ponder what caused it to occur." [17:55]
diana_coman: certainly; to start with, it can't possibly occur for a purpose anyway, how would that work [17:56]
diana_coman: it might be that someone did some action with some purpose in mind, sure, but that still doesn't mean the action occured for that purpose; it still occured from some causes. [18:00]
whaack: diana_coman: i guess i was thinking the point is to try to find those causes instead of guess the purpose in mind [18:01]
whaack: diana_coman: but that might not be correct if you're studying the action because the purpose in mind is the cause of the action [18:01]
diana_coman: whaack: well, aiming to find what goes on in people's minds is rather iffy anyway, not sure you can "find" with any certainty such a thing really. [18:04]
whaack: diana_coman: right but that may be a separate problem from the causes vs purposes [18:05]
whaack: diana_coman: back to our example of V. can't one say switching my annotations from being 'to show i understand Stan's code' to 'to illuminate the meaning of the code' is simply switching my purpose? [18:07]
diana_coman: whaack: thoughts are reactions themselves, you know? [18:07]
diana_coman: whaack: heh, one can say anything really [18:09]
whaack: diana_coman: yes re thoughts being reactions [18:10]
diana_coman: you don't swith the annotations, you switch the way you approach the task: the 2nd approach focuses on the existing code and its clarity and improves on that, it starts from "how can I make this clearer?" [18:11]
diana_coman: you can however, pervert that into a purpose, sure; this is why I'm saying "one can say anything really"; it's possible to aim for whatever notion you may formulate as to "illuminated code" and so pursue that future-illumination, regardless of any causes. [18:12]
jfw: asciilifeform, spyked: http://younghands.club/2019/10/27/jfw-review-week-of-oct-21-2019/#footnote_1_120 re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Oct-2019#1007694 (and my apologies, I should have said here when I noticed) [18:13]
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 17:04:29 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) [18:13]
diana_coman: whaack: and nobody can give you a fool-proof statement of task as it were. [18:13]
whaack: diana_coman: okay i believe i understand better. you referred to c vs p because i said " oh so my approach to the task is to make it easier for the next person who learns V" but that is making a wild guess of what will be helpful in the future [18:14]
diana_coman: whaack: yes. [18:14]
diana_coman: jfw: ah, so feedbot is actually down? [18:14]
diana_coman: spyked: ? [18:14]
jfw: ^ specifically sees eggog on loper-os [18:15]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you have your rss messed up somehow/ [18:15]
whaack: diana_coman: ty. i have to eat so i may be slow to respond for a bit. [18:16]
jfw: likewise grabbing a bite then back to remaining posts [18:18]
diana_coman: jfw: you know, it's actually enjoyable reading your review? [18:19]
jfw: why thank you diana_coman, felt good to get it out [18:19]
jfw: though I caught myself spinning for a sec on 'publish' button... "am I SURE sure sure?" [18:21]
diana_coman: jfw: the one part that hasn't been mentioned much around here yet but I start thinking might be relevant to you: it's important to prioritize and to do *that* well. [18:21]
diana_coman: jfw: heh; sure you're sure, what. [18:23]
dorion: prioritize prioritization ! [18:23]
diana_coman: dorion: ha, you know that's anyway even more your task as a manager than his, right? [18:23]
diana_coman: lolz [18:23]
asciilifeform: diana_coman, jfw : i haven't made any changes to rss since last post [18:24]
dorion: diana_coman yes, and failing that over the years caused me to pull both of us in here. [18:25]
diana_coman: dorion: you'll have to explain to me tomorrow that pull because in the end between the two of you pulling/pushing one another, it's all as clear as mud who did what here. [18:26]
asciilifeform: actually strike that : loox like my doublequotes fix somehow broke it ( i get a mysterious eggog when loading feed , and not presently equipped to debug ) [18:27]
diana_coman: but do finish first your post there, this can wait. [18:27]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: ha! [18:28]
dorion: diana_coman aok, will think about how to clarify the mud. [18:28]
diana_coman: don't worry, I'll ask you questions until it's clear. [18:29]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma have to cut the thing open to fix, and 0\% chance of it happening today, been awake for 14+h already [18:30]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: get some sleep better; I'm reading. [18:30]
asciilifeform: will be doing a bit moar numerics before may sleep , so if diana_coman has q's in next coupla hrs , will try to answer. [18:31]
asciilifeform: has also crate of 'dulaps' to unpack & test, but unlikely to today [18:32]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I'm at the end of a long and weird day so I might need another pass tomorrow (and that won't happen until evening anyway) so don't count on immediate feedback, sorry. [18:32]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: makes sense, got it [18:32]
diana_coman: "This document is doomed to be revised again. And probably yet again." - bwahahah; asciilifeform , I'll end up cribbing this for a set of quotes on younghands.club , lol. [19:09]
whaack: fff looks like next week i may have to abandon the ship on the digitalocean [19:12]
diana_coman: jfw: btw what does the f in there stand for? [19:14]
jfw: diana_coman: back at kb, catching up. F is for Frederick. [19:15]
diana_coman: thanks. [19:21]
jfw: You have an Irena there too, right? [19:22]
diana_coman: Irina, yes [19:22]
diana_coman: it's the Romanian/Russian form; the English equivalent would be Irene [19:23]
jfw: ah. Is Coman a Romanian name? Don't believe I've seen it often [19:24]
diana_coman: well, Romanian surnames are anyway haphazard because they are rather recent; fwiw it's not the usual form (Popescu as in Mircea Popescu is one of the most common + more usual ending escu, yes) [19:25]
diana_coman: traditionally nobody cared about surnames, it would always be literally, you are X of Y's (aka your father's ) and the usual question in villages goes exactly like that: whose are you? [19:27]
jfw: so much like the origin of '-son' I gather [19:28]
jfw: Anyway, these posts aren't gonna post themselves so I'd better hold my further curiosity for now. [19:29]
diana_coman: certainly; and for that matter similar reason as to Russian patronymics, obviously. [19:29]
diana_coman: jfw: heh, work well then. [19:30]

Comments feed: RSS 2.0

Leave a Reply