#eulora Logs for 27 Feb 2016

February 27th, 2016 by Diana Coman
mircea_popescu: anything good ? [00:01]
Birdman: well #7 is at like 26k usd [00:01]
mircea_popescu: cool. [00:02]
Gaxaro: Anyway, if i made a new char, will i keep the copper i made? [00:03]
Gaxaro: Or will it be lost? [00:04]
Gaxaro: Mircea do you know? [00:05]
mircea_popescu: if you delete your old char you mean ? nobody's tried this in a long time, but afaik it will be lost. [00:06]
Birdman: the last 5 are all entropia based, and #1 is 6mn usd, pretty crazy lol [00:07]
Birdman: Gaxaro ill hold on to your stuff while you do it if you want [00:07]
Gaxaro: Alright [00:07]
Birdman: mircea_popescu somebody bought the moon, too! familiar aspirations? [00:08]
mircea_popescu: lol [00:08]
Birdman: Gaxaro after i finish this stick ill head to town just make note of everything you have to give me and get it all ready [00:08]
Gaxaro: Okay i will [00:09]
Gaxaro: It's just copper btw? [00:09]
Gaxaro: !* [00:09]
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's iffy this entire thing. so if tomorrow i make an "entropia item" consisting of basically the magic bag / golden goose but on steroids, paying say 10bn copper/day, and someone buys it for you know, 100k bitcoin or some shit, then therefore "eulora has sold a virtual item for 40mn dollars" ? [00:09]
mircea_popescu: bullcrap, basically. [00:09]
Birdman: you have nothin else? lol [00:09]
Birdman: mircea_popescu i guess so but the difference is the money used here is actually money [00:10]
mircea_popescu: kinda dubious metric, but anyway. [00:10]
Gaxaro: Nope i have nothing else [00:11]
Birdman: im not sure how their whole thing works, you buy a business and charge people entropia moneyz and then you can sell them to other people for dollars [00:11]
Birdman: i doubt the game makers buy back the game stuff [00:11]
Birdman: omw Gaxaro, how much am i holding on to? [00:11]
Gaxaro: 469k [00:12]
mircea_popescu: Gaxaro why not just pass it along to jurov ask for half a bitcent or something [00:12]
mircea_popescu: or does he have a minimum higher than that ? [00:12]
Gaxaro: I'll think he most likely does i bet. [00:13]
mircea_popescu: i guess coupla bux not worth anyone's time like that. [00:13]
DicePower: The game makers in Entropia buy items back i.e., that you get in loot. The amount they pay is the "Trade Terminal Value" of an item. This might be comparable to the "Base Value" of an item in EU (if for instance, there is an NPC that buys things for Base Value). However, the Trade Terminal Value of Estate Deeds which represent in your inventory ownership of i.e., the moon, is essentially 0. [00:15]
Birdman: wait hold on Gaxaro [00:16]
Gaxaro: oh okay [00:16]
Birdman: you gonna be able to get the skills back? [00:16]
DicePower: So if you pay 0,000 for a moon, it only has secondary market value. [00:16]
Gaxaro: Yeah i will be able to do so. [00:16]
Birdman: you have books or items? [00:16]
Gaxaro: Shit i dont.. [00:17]
Birdman: i dont think you start out with any of them [00:17]
Gaxaro: Nope i wont start out with them [00:17]
Birdman: well i can make you a tinkering book but thats about it, mircea_popescu may have others to sell you [00:17]
Gaxaro: Okay good. [00:18]
Birdman: so then i guess wait and see if mp will sell you the skill books, because deleting your character without being able to get them back is a bad idea [00:18]
DicePower: Out of curiosity, what is the motivation in this situation for wanting to create a new character? [00:21]
Birdman: reduce building back to 0 [00:21]
Birdman: or 1 or whatever [00:21]
Birdman: lots of money to be made noob mining [00:22]
Gaxaro: Strange it says cannot connect to server [00:22]
DicePower: Ahhh, so the concept would be to cycle characters indefinitely. [00:22]
Birdman: mircea_popescu server is down [00:22]
DicePower: You actually get worse returns with skills? [00:22]
Birdman: well no you dont have to train them, so they wont level up unless you want them to [00:22]
Birdman: aahh well you get alot more low q things than high q [00:23]
Birdman: and sometimes people will pay more for these items than they're worth, so having more of them quality being irrelevant is a good place to be [00:23]
DicePower: Ahh okay [00:23]
DicePower: Would it also be an advantage to have a stat distribution that favored the lowest possible quality? [00:24]
Birdman: whatcha mean? [00:24]
Birdman: like make such a shitty character that you're the best at noobing? [00:24]
mircea_popescu: o.O [00:24]
DicePower: Yeah, as I understand, some characters will produce higher quality items than others. [00:25]
Birdman: you'd need to know how each stat correlates to the skill lines [00:25]
DicePower: Is the item just to get as low of quality output as possible, or is it just to take advantage of the low cost of building at 0? [00:25]
Birdman: <DicePower>Yeah, as I understand, some characters will produce higher quality items than others. << not sure thats been tested, if you mean two people at the same level will produce better or worse than the other [00:25]
DicePower: Yeah, that's what I mean. [00:26]
DicePower: Not 100\% sure if it's the case. [00:26]
DicePower: But it's what I've gathered from informal discussion in here. [00:26]
DicePower: Maybe I mistook what someone said. [00:26]
mircea_popescu: sooo you managed to crash the server DicePower [00:26]
mircea_popescu: what did you do ? [00:27]
DicePower: Hehe I haven't logged in in like 3 days :P [00:27]
mircea_popescu: then this other guy [00:27]
mircea_popescu: Gaxaro what did you do ? [00:27]
mircea_popescu: char creation crapped out. [00:27]
mircea_popescu: DicePower if for instance, there is an NPC that buys things for Base Value << electron ? [00:28]
Birdman: input cost of building isnt dependant on building skill really. the point is that if someone needs lots of grass and the quality doesnt matter to them, they might pay you 60 ecu on a grass that, with your q7 building, and that grass is really worth 60(being the base value)*.07. The game will give you a huge amount more grass to equal your input value since you're getting 60*.07 base value on the grass and you turn around and sell the lot for 1500\% profits [00:28]
Gaxaro: Hmm so the server is down? [00:28]
mircea_popescu: Gaxaro what did you do ? [00:28]
Gaxaro: Err nothing just deleted my char. [00:29]
DicePower: mircea_popescu: So Electron guarantees Base Value for items (so that secondary market value is always built on top of Base Value, and no one ever sells for like 90\% of Base Value)? [00:29]
mircea_popescu: DicePower i've never seen anything under 120\% really. [00:29]
DicePower: wow [00:29]
DicePower: But it would make sense for something to be 100.1\% in theory. [00:30]
DicePower: But never under Base Value because the seller could just sell it all to Electron? [00:30]
DicePower: Right? [00:30]
mircea_popescu: Gaxaro that's a pretty shitty description you know. literally, just pushed delete, that's all ? [00:30]
mircea_popescu: DicePower yeah. items became useless recently, ppl were offering to buy them at above-electron-value as novelties or w/e. history items. [00:30]
Gaxaro: Hmhm that's all lol [00:31]
mircea_popescu: well it didn;t like it. [00:31]
DicePower: I've deleted my character 38 times, and only once did the server crash, and it seemed to be unrelated. [00:31]
Gaxaro: Alright, after that i chose create new char, put the first name and last name [00:33]
mircea_popescu: heh. [00:33]
mircea_popescu: well ima turn off your account for safety till this can get looked at. [00:34]
Gaxaro: after that it doesn't really show my char on the standing pad and afterwards i click join [00:34]
Birdman: ehh my bad guys [00:35]
Gaxaro: then after that i get exited from the server lol [00:35]
Gaxaro: That's all i did [00:35]
mircea_popescu: heh. [00:35]
Gaxaro: For that to happen. [00:35]
Gaxaro: So im not really sure what is going on to be honest. [00:35]
mircea_popescu: and if i ask again i'ma hear a 3rd version of "that's all i did" [00:35]
Gaxaro: Well let me take pictures of what happens. [00:36]
Gaxaro: Thought i don't want it to happen again. [00:37]
mircea_popescu: neway, server back in. [00:37]
mircea_popescu: you can't, your account's wiped. i'll let you know once people get around to testing it, reporting it properly and having w/e hole fixed. [00:37]
Birdman: do you want me to send you the coppers to an address Gaxaro ? [00:40]
DicePower: So it sounds like Base Value or Electron Value are the equivalent to Trade Terminal (TT) Value in Entropia. [00:42]
Gaxaro: Well, i am honest here and this is what i did step by step. I select creating new character and i name it Blazsword on the first name and on the last i name it Winx. After that i go to the next screen and click join which caused the server to crash. [00:43]
Gaxaro: Also, when it crashed the second time i did the same name Blazsword Winx too and also just clicked join after going to next screen. [00:44]
Gaxaro: It's quite weird but i hope the problem will be fixed. [00:45]
DicePower: I'm free to help with testing if needed, since I don't mind wiping my character. [00:48]
Gaxaro: Hmm, if nothing happens with the name you will chose then try Blazsword Winx and see if that causes it? [00:50]
Birdman: i doubt that causes it [00:50]
Gaxaro: Proberly. [00:51]
Birdman: you're on windows right? may be the first to ever try this on windows [00:51]
Gaxaro: Yeah i am on windows. [00:51]
DicePower: Nope, I was on Windows when I made my 39 characters and deleted the first 38. [00:51]
Gaxaro: I was also thinking about recordering what i was doing. [00:51]
Gaxaro: Thought that's to late now lol [00:51]
DicePower: We don't know if it's reproducible even for you. It only happened once, right? [00:53]
DicePower: Could have been a fluke or unrelated, unless there's some log to tell who or what causes the crash. [00:53]
Gaxaro: It happend twiche [00:53]
DicePower: ahhh [00:54]
DicePower: Did you select the "Eulorian" race? [00:55]
DicePower: Or leave it to the default "Eukidian" or w/e it is called. [00:55]
Gaxaro: I left it default [00:56]
Birdman: Gaxaro - https://blockchain.info/tx/790ecac83de953b7117e69d0e900bf15fc164ea0d321fb2446408a3995fb4595 [00:56]
lobbesbot: Title: Bitcoin Transaction 790ecac83de953b7117e69d0e900bf15fc164ea0d321fb2446408a3995fb4595 (at blockchain.info) [00:56]
DicePower: That's one difference. I always changed the choice to Eudorian out of compulsion for keep my testing results as variable free as possible. :P [00:57]
DicePower: Think mircea_popescu said that info isn't even sent to the server though. [00:57]
Birdman: a thought, if one is looting bps, low bouq is more suited to do that right? unless of course the bp q matters in the end maybe even heavier than the ingreds [00:58]
DicePower: Anyway, I'm not gonna try to replicate the crash unless everyone tells me to. Don't want to mess up anyone's work. [01:01]
Birdman: yeah would be pretty bad timing for me [01:01]
DicePower: kk [01:01]
Birdman: well im buying any and all cs for 300\% over bv if there's interest to sell em [01:04]
Birdman: i'd be more inclined to buy those basic tools if i didnt have to micro manage their use [01:05]
Birdman: ranks up gathering too fast to just let it go over night [01:06]
Gaxaro: Anyway, terrible sorry for crashing the server 2 times. Damn bugs and all. [01:07]
Gaxaro: Gonna play some entropia i guess while i am waiting. [01:08]
Birdman: try to make some new records [01:09]
Gaxaro: I heard that fruits has gone up in price crazy a lot since pets are back i think [01:11]
Gaxaro: Now since my account is wiped. Does that mean i need to make a new account? [01:12]
DicePower: Yeah fruit is like 18 PED per K now or something like that. [01:12]
Gaxaro: Yup [01:12]
Gaxaro: Pain to find them tho haha [01:13]
DicePower: I bought 170k at like 3 or 4 PED per K, sold too soon though, probably got like 7.5 PED per K back. [01:13]
DicePower: I held them for years should have waited a few more months. [01:13]
Gaxaro: Yup lol [01:14]
Gaxaro: So what are these new planets hmm [01:15]
Gaxaro: But yeah hit me up when the bug gets fixed. [01:38]
Gaxaro: entropia feels eh dead lol [01:48]
danielpbarron: did Birdman talk you into deleting? [01:57]
Birdman: see logs danielpbarron [01:57]
danielpbarron: yeah i just read it all [01:57]
Birdman: lulzy huh? [01:57]
danielpbarron: i still don't know why Gaxaro was so quick to delete just because you said something [01:57]
Birdman: to be fair, if it didnt break the game it'd have been in his best interest [01:57]
danielpbarron: no [01:58]
danielpbarron: not necessarily [01:58]
Birdman: Well i was explaining to him how he shouldnt have ranked his building, and he could reverse it by making a new character [01:58]
danielpbarron: the noob building thing was being covered fine by Nidhogg [01:58]
Birdman: had lvl 20 building [01:58]
danielpbarron: yeah so? [01:58]
Birdman: well obviously not, as it needs doing [01:58]
Birdman: and one noob can only do so much huh [01:59]
danielpbarron: why don't ~you~ ever read the log [01:59]
danielpbarron: one noob was doing plenty [01:59]
danielpbarron: so much plenty that prices were going down [01:59]
danielpbarron: at least it is interesting in that Gaxaro is the first to delete a character that actually had skills [01:59]
danielpbarron: maybe you could have explained to him how expensive those skills are to get when they aren't given for free [02:00]
Birdman: well i told him to hold up and get the numbers on new skill items [02:00]
danielpbarron: 100k each if he's lucky [02:01]
Birdman: right.. and i was going to make him a tinkering book pro bono [02:01]
Birdman: though im not sure i warned him before he did it or not [02:02]
Birdman: but i tried soon as it hit me [02:02]
Birdman: anyways [02:02]
Birdman: lvl 20 building is infinitely shittier than lvl 1-2 building if you're needing to noob build [02:02]
Birdman: guy has 500k ecu, whats he gonna do for work otherwise? im unwilling to hire a lvl 20 builder [02:03]
danielpbarron: until noboy wants quality 5 stuff anymore [02:03]
danielpbarron: he was doing fine i thought [02:03]
Birdman: maybe its in his best interest to get a bank roll before going at leveling up [02:03]
danielpbarron: WOW [02:03]
danielpbarron: what a pop [02:03]
danielpbarron: over 4k sentiments [02:04]
Birdman: nice q110? [02:04]
danielpbarron: why don't i see a message [02:04]
Birdman: i was about to say [02:05]
danielpbarron: should be 0.04 at least [02:05]
danielpbarron: even if it was evently distributed over the 3 shaped slags made in the interval.. [02:06]
danielpbarron: 4484 sentiments and 5611 feelings quality 109 after 4 shaped slags [02:08]
danielpbarron: er.. 5 shaped slags [02:08]
Gaxaro: Maan this sucks lol [02:09]
danielpbarron: you're kinda an impulsive fella ain't cha? [02:09]
Gaxaro: I suppose so. [02:09]
Gaxaro: account got wiped because i made the server crash 2 times somehow.. [02:11]
danielpbarron: so this pop that didn't apparently count as a pop puts my overcraft loot on this 200 shaped slag run at a little over 5 million in quality adjusted base value alone, and i still have 26 slags to make [02:11]
danielpbarron: Gaxaro, you're not in trouble [02:11]
Gaxaro: Oh okay good to know because i thought i was. [02:11]
danielpbarron: and you deleted your character so "account wiped" sounds more dramatic than it actually is [02:11]
danielpbarron: just glad i wasn't sacrificing when you guys tried this [02:13]
danielpbarron: and glad i set a timer on my phone to wake me up when these slags would have been done so at least i'm awake now to start it up again [02:14]
Birdman: needs 2 beetle brews, preferably the lowest quality around [02:15]
danielpbarron: didn't you get a samovar? [02:17]
Birdman: oh good point [02:29]
Gaxaro: Oh well im gonna sleep and hopefully the bug is fixed and my account is back lol [02:30]
danielpbarron: didn't he have tools and stuff besides copper? [02:32]
Birdman: nope [02:34]
Birdman: found some enums and lbn in town earlier though [02:34]
danielpbarron: how did he not have tools.. [02:34]
Birdman: good question [02:35]
Birdman: did he know that the storage exists? [02:35]
danielpbarron: i think so [02:36]
Birdman: maybe bare handing was his deal [02:36]
Birdman: who knows [02:36]
danielpbarron: no he had tools [02:36]
Birdman: well they dont last forever [02:36]
danielpbarron: and i know he dropped some of them out in the field at least once [02:36]
Birdman: might've chucked em [02:36]
diana_coman: <mircea_popescu> LOVE YOU diana_coman !!1 <- heh, congrats! [04:13]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ready ? [07:20]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman :) [07:20]
mircea_popescu: pretty sure i'll be clicking it today. [07:20]
mircea_popescu: wait Birdman does this mean you're paying 60k per cs ?! [07:22]
mircea_popescu: Birdman> to be fair, if it didnt break the game it'd have been in his best interest << fwiw i think it's pretty stupid, but not to interfere with player optionality... [07:23]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron> why don't i see a message <<< the message thing isn't working quite correctly yet, only sees part of your loot. [07:26]
mircea_popescu: it's on the block to get fixed already. [07:26]
mircea_popescu: Birdman> oh good point <<< lol! [07:27]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron> and i know he dropped some of them out in the field at least once << lol ridoinculous, tools are what, 2k each after fully spent ? more ? [07:27]
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> danielpbarron ready ? << ya [07:44]
diana_coman: 986 wpl 142q danielpbarron mircea_popescu let me know if interested; [08:14]
danielpbarron: i am [08:21]
diana_coman: danielpbarron, 300 per wpl on the spot; alternatively make an offer and I'll wait too see if mp wants to top that [08:25]
danielpbarron: 270 [08:28]
diana_coman: 270 heard [08:28]
danielpbarron: or 267k for the lot [08:29]
diana_coman: might make it easier yeah; so: 986 wpl 142q heard danielpbarron 267k [08:30]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron meet me in 20 minutes to settle all this ? [09:28]
mircea_popescu: DianaComan he can take it, that's what i'd have paid also. [09:29]
mircea_popescu: but i'm ready to take wwb delivery if you're around, and also bb or what was it. [09:30]
DianaComan: hm, back to 125 for high q wpl? interesting, might hold on to the rest of it for a while then; anyways: danielpbarron , wpl is yours [09:30]
DianaComan: mircea_popescu, yes, give me 5 min to take out [09:30]
mircea_popescu: kk [09:30]
mircea_popescu: and in other news : in ~3 hours i will be doing the apprentice bouq clicking. it looks like i'll have enough material for 4 clicks gathered together, still have to complete ~1mn worth of crafting or so. [09:32]
mircea_popescu: i intend to say here what i get as it happens and such, if anyone's curious you can follow along! [09:32]
DianaComan: is curious [09:32]
mircea_popescu: each click should take about half hour or thereabouts, judging by the bv. [09:33]
mircea_popescu: it's ~6x a cs, so that's like 35 minutes i guess [09:33]
mircea_popescu: i am kinda impressed that we went from bp auction to actual clicking in just a shade under two weeks tho. nice work. [09:35]
DianaComan: that's all it would seem [09:37]
mircea_popescu: 1095 * 197 * 1.43 * 1.25 + (8015 + 9487 + 3225) * 141 * 1.42 * 1.25 =5573040.4875 [09:38]
mircea_popescu: 10k from last time was it ? [09:38]
DianaComan: yes [09:39]
DianaComan: uhm [09:39]
DianaComan: 1.25*(1.43*1095*197+1.42*8015*141+1.43*9487*141+1.41*3225*141) = 5584077 [09:40]
DianaComan: so not exactly 2*10k, lol [09:40]
mircea_popescu: o.O [09:40]
DianaComan: it was anyway 7k precisely [09:40]
mircea_popescu: call it even [09:40]
DianaComan: thanks [09:41]
mircea_popescu: thanks! [09:41]
DianaComan: cash certainly fell off a cliff [09:42]
mircea_popescu: heh. [09:42]
DianaComan: in any case, seeing how wpl also goes, I suppose the rational thing is to wait and see what the bps go for, since exploring/mining depends on bps too (tools) [09:45]
mircea_popescu: except if you bh it [09:45]
DianaComan: bh? [09:45]
mircea_popescu: barehand [09:45]
DianaComan: ah, barehanded [09:45]
DianaComan: yeah, sure, then don't expect any such large quantities any time soon [09:45]
DianaComan: want 1k items? wait 1 week or so [09:46]
DianaComan: and what's that a full stack or a couple of them, lol [09:46]
mircea_popescu: lol. [09:46]
mircea_popescu: well... yeah, but on other hand should fix prices for minerals lol [09:46]
DianaComan: well, I already did this mistake of eating up the costs of exploring and I certainly do not intend to do it again [09:47]
DianaComan: I was a fool to do it once, won't be an idiot to do it second time round [09:47]
DianaComan: I suppose there will be only low q items for a while - loads of them still , so no problem [09:48]
DianaComan: well, at least the basics I suppose [09:48]
mircea_popescu: when was this ? [09:48]
DianaComan: before the mining+lj+farming basically; [09:48]
DianaComan: and certainly back when spirover had the ch [09:48]
DianaComan: that was the reason why I bought the hoes then in huge quantities [09:48]
mircea_popescu: ah, well yeah but i mean retrospectively like that you know... "if i kept these hoes instead of using them they'd be worth more" [09:49]
DianaComan: ah, no, I'm not saying that, no [09:49]
DianaComan: I WILL MINE [09:49]
DianaComan: I will just not sell at whatever price [09:49]
danielpbarron: i'm afk and will be back in about an hour [09:49]
mircea_popescu: works danielpbarron [09:49]
DianaComan: kk danielpbarron I'll be back to deliver wpl in about 3hours [09:49]
danielpbarron: k [09:50]
mircea_popescu: 2 levels in mcguyver + 1 in tinkering = 500k [09:53]
mircea_popescu: fucking ouch. [09:53]
DianaComan: DianaComan> that was the reason why I bought the hoes then in huge quantities <- what I meant here is that the reasoning at that time went like this: exploring is NOT profitable at 125\%, therefore the price will have to go up -> price of crafted items will go up too (until everything will stabilise somewhere, but apparently not at 125\%) -> hoes at 135\% are actually cheap so should get them while they last [09:59]
DianaComan: and I certainly do not regret buying (or using) those hoes , quite on the contrary [10:01]
DianaComan: basically mircea_popescu as I see it, you want now (again) to stabilise it forcefully at 125\% - atm I am not going with it as a blanket approach as it makes no sense for me on things other than basics and pretty much the cheapest of each line maybe, that's all; maybe I'll get to a point where it starts making sense, sure, maybe [10:05]
mircea_popescu: lotta presumptions in there tho. if it's true that exploring was not profitable at 125\%, you'll have to explain the profit i made exploring. can't simply take personal experience and enact it as reality. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: moreover, can't take your own fancy and enact it as what i want. i dun want anything, but the game complexity will increase over time. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: moreover, it makes relatively less sense to loot blueprints than to loot a meta item. so it's flowing correctly : towards more complexity and more sense. [10:17]
DianaComan: mircea_popescu> lotta presumptions in there tho. if it's true that exploring was not profitable at 125\%, you'll have to explain the profit i made exploring. can't simply take personal experience and enact it as reality. <- I'm talking of my own decisions there, don't claim any universality for anything; as to your profit, as I said, basics yes [10:17]
DianaComan: basics I'm perfectly fine at 125\% [10:17]
mircea_popescu: well what, tlc is selling at 400\% or w/e [10:18]
mircea_popescu: iirc i sold a buncha eps at 125-130ish, if that. so i stopped mining rhem for now, and well... nobody came asking, either. [10:18]
DianaComan: so why bring that in discussion since it is not in the "gotta fix price for minerals" re 125\% [10:18]
mircea_popescu: haven't mined any eps in like a month. [10:18]
mircea_popescu: what is this "gotta fix price for minerals" re 125\% ? [10:19]
DianaComan: <mircea_popescu> well... yeah, but on other hand should fix prices for minerals lol [10:19]
DianaComan: did I get that wrong? it was right after the wpl at 125\% [10:19]
mircea_popescu: eh, off the cuff remark of no further intension! [10:19]
DianaComan: I took it to be related to that [10:20]
DianaComan: oh well then [10:20]
mircea_popescu: you know, like, dog gets run over by a truck [10:21]
mircea_popescu: "well... it should fix its mange..." [10:21]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, if you think about it - as it is various higher bvminerals are already on a runway. if you move on to bh mining, supply takes a hike, prices will have to go up. [10:23]
DianaComan: so this is exactly what I said [10:23]
mircea_popescu: problem is, look at the backfeed. [10:25]
mircea_popescu: if i paid 200\% on wpl instead of 130, the numina end of the apprentice calculation would be that much higher, for instance. [10:26]
mircea_popescu: making bps that much more expensive making tools that much more expensive making [10:26]
mircea_popescu: etc [10:26]
DianaComan: I didn't ask for 200\% so the point is moot [10:29]
DianaComan: anyway, it was more of a misunderstanding of that remark of yours as something more than it was [10:29]
mircea_popescu: well ofcoursenot. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: honestly, there's nothing wrong with asking for a fair price for anyone's wares. that's what the market is after all. [10:30]
danielpbarron: is around [11:08]
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, DianaComan [11:08]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron aite, gimme teh slagz [11:08]
mircea_popescu: damn. trade 99\% done tho, gimme minute. [11:09]
mircea_popescu: craft done i mean [11:09]
mircea_popescu: aand mcguyver 144 nao ftw. [11:20]
danielpbarron: has quality 111 tinkering!! [13:27]
mircea_popescu: is that good ? [13:36]
danielpbarron: well it's up from 110 [13:39]
danielpbarron: so yes [13:39]
mircea_popescu: wd :) [13:39]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron omg is it ready yet ? [14:58]
mircea_popescu: i said 3 hours 5.5 hours ago, but i honestly have almost everything together! just need those numinizers. [14:59]
DianaComan: danielpbarron, still around so that I take the wpl out? [15:02]
danielpbarron: hrm [15:56]
Birdman: mircea_popescu> wait Birdman does this mean you're paying 60k per cs ?! << yeah [16:00]
mircea_popescu: well god damn it, at that price you must get some. [16:07]
mircea_popescu: ima make you a few, what the hell. [16:08]
mircea_popescu: lemme first finish this bps thing and i'll set up a craft. [16:08]
mircea_popescu: Birdman how many do you want ? or is it one of those "as many as i can get" sorta deals ? [16:09]
DicePower: Hello [17:23]
DianaComan: hello DicePower [17:29]
DianaComan: danielpbarron, you around? [17:29]
DicePower: So how is the file system used in Linux? What would be a sensible location to stick the directory for step 3 in http://www.eulorum.org/Ubuntu Does the Linux file system have a parallel to Program Files, AppData, ProgramData, etc.? [17:30]
lobbesbot: Title: Ubuntu - Eulorum (at www.eulorum.org) [17:30]
DicePower: I guess the first to ask is what IDE is desired to compile the code, since it should probably go in a subdirectory of that program. [17:33]
DicePower: May as well check on Linux IDEs first. [17:33]
DicePower: Of course, the thought process of trying to put thing in the parallel locations to where they would have gone in a Windows file system is probably wrongheaded. [17:34]
DicePower: But what else can ya do at first hehe. [17:34]
danielpbarron: DianaComan, ya [17:42]
DianaComan: arghh, just started a stick; will come back to town as soon as it finishes, ok? [17:44]
danielpbarron: DianaComan, yep [17:45]
DianaComan: kk, eta 10min [17:46]
danielpbarron: DianaComan, i'd make it in ~/ [17:46]
danielpbarron: err, DicePower [17:46]
DicePower: sup [17:46]
DianaComan: DicePower, command line is all you need really for compiling eulora [17:46]
DicePower: For making changes to the code though. [17:47]
DianaComan: keep it simple [17:47]
DicePower: Command lines are usually terrible for debugging. [17:47]
DianaComan: it is [17:47]
danielpbarron: type: mkdir /home/yourusername/dev [17:47]
danielpbarron: aka: mkdir ~/dev [17:47]
danielpbarron: same thing [17:48]
DicePower: Okay, just stick everything in your Home folder basically? [17:48]
danielpbarron: alterantively, type: cd followed by: mkdir dev [17:48]
DicePower: Just didn't know if there was a better place to store stuff, like a Program Files or something. [17:48]
danielpbarron: unless you are root for some reason [17:48]
DicePower: kk [17:48]
danielpbarron: in which case, get out of root and make sure you are only a regular user [17:49]
DicePower: My terminal doesn't say root, so I think I'm a normal user [17:50]
DianaComan: danielpbarron, ready [17:51]
danielpbarron: k [17:51]
DianaComan: DicePower, as daniel says: just create a folder in your home directory, no need to make anything more complicated than that [17:52]
danielpbarron: thanks [17:52]
danielpbarron: yeah don't get crazy with directory structures [17:52]
DianaComan: enjoy [17:53]
DicePower: kk [17:53]
DicePower: Is there a goto IDE for linux, similar to Visual Studio? [17:54]
DicePower: Something with a solid debugger and interface optimized for ease of use? [17:55]
DianaComan: DicePower, it really depends on what you know best [17:56]
DianaComan: but well, there is Eclipse which is portable, so maybe you know it already [17:56]
DianaComan: on the other hand, gdb is actually *very good* for debugging [17:56]
DianaComan: (command line basically, yes) [17:56]
DianaComan: create a folder dev in your home folder and then go from there, as the guide says [17:56]
DicePower: I'd rather have graphics, I'm less good with command line [17:56]
DianaComan: type pwd and it will show you where you are basically (path) [17:57]
DicePower: Eclipse looks reasonably friendly [17:57]
DicePower: Are you supposed to just dump application installs in the Home folder as well? [18:12]
DicePower: or in your user folder rather [18:13]
DicePower: This feels a bit disorganized :P [18:13]
DianaComan: if by "application installs" you mean Eclipse, you are fine to dump it there; otherwise ftr there are conventions for linux too, sure [18:13]
DicePower: Yeah, meant Eclipse [18:14]
DianaComan: it doesn't get "installed" as such [18:15]
DianaComan: it's just an application running from its folder and that is that (same on windows in fact) [18:15]
DicePower: Ahh it's portable [18:16]
DicePower: Oh I can just get it straight from the Package Manager [18:17]
DianaComan: most probably you can indeed [18:18]
DianaComan: you know, just don't get lost into another rabbit hole pretty much, or you'll probably never quite get to actually play the game [18:19]
DicePower: LOL [18:19]
DicePower: Good point [18:19]
DicePower: Okay, last question before I begin. Does using an IDE change anything in steps 3-7 (i.e., where I store the dev folder, or perhaps I omit some steps and do them in the IDE instead)? [18:31]
danielpbarron: DicePower> I'd rather have graphics, I'm less good with command line << get good. [18:32]
DicePower: I'm taking this transition one step at a time lol. I already got Linux :P [18:32]
DicePower: Not ready for full on torture yet [18:32]
danielpbarron: torture is trying to force it into some stupid window manager [18:33]
DicePower: Torture is having to echo out every variable in Notepad because you don't have an IDE to show you what the value is as you step through :P [18:34]
danielpbarron: not notepad.. use vim or nano [18:34]
danielpbarron: i like vim, but that would probably make you freak out [18:35]
danielpbarron: i don't think it's wise to alter the code to such an extent that you need to run it in a special thing [18:36]
danielpbarron: it should be possible to make small incremental changes that you simply test by running the new binary [18:36]
DianaComan: DicePower, gdb shows you the value of any var at any time, lol [18:37]
DicePower: But like [18:37]
DianaComan: plus breakpoints etc [18:37]
DicePower: why bother feeling like you're using DOS? [18:37]
DicePower: When better exists [18:37]
DianaComan: anyway, trouble with an ide is that you'll need to set up the environment properly to compile the whole thing in there [18:37]
danielpbarron: command line is better [18:37]
DianaComan: meaning esp the CS dependency [18:37]
DianaComan: I don't think that is covered in the wiki and tbh I never bothered [18:38]
DicePower: I mean, was FoxyBot actually modified entirely in a command line? [18:38]
DianaComan: danielpbarron> i like vim, but that would probably make you freak out <- heh, that's why I've sent him onto eclipse rather [18:38]
danielpbarron: well nano is easy enough [18:38]
DicePower: err, was Eulora modified to include FoxyBot entirely in a command line [18:38]
DianaComan: well, yes it was [18:38]
danielpbarron: the changes i made to foxybot were done in vim [18:38]
DicePower: That's insane [18:39]
DianaComan: the only thing I like about Eclipse is that it has some useful parts for understanding code bases [18:39]
DianaComan: reason why I did load the code in it; but I never bothered to actually compile in it [18:39]
DicePower: How much work is involved in setting up the environment for Eclipse? It is just a matter of adding some extra libraries, or? [18:39]
danielpbarron: everything is easier on command line; i get annoyed when i have to open some windows with menus type thing in order to do something [18:40]
DianaComan: neah danielpbarron it's about seeing for instance all references to an object etc [18:40]
danielpbarron: i've set up eclipse when i was coding minecraft plugins [18:40]
danielpbarron: and it is a huge pain [18:40]
danielpbarron: i couldn't possibly remember it let alone explain it [18:40]
DicePower: So it's probably just an entirely subjective thing, commandline vs GUI, thus both exist. I know for myself though, that I do better programming in a GUI. [18:41]
danielpbarron: objects suck, and can't this all be written in a way to avoid using them? [18:41]
DianaComan: DicePower, I can't quite say what work is involved since I never did it, lol; but I doubt it is very very straightforward if you don't know eclipse anyway; I suppose you'd have to set the dependencies for eulora project to cs at the very least [18:42]
DicePower: Hmmm, maybe I should focus on the Windows compiling instructions again, since it uses Visual Studio by default. [18:42]
DianaComan: danielpbarron, you know, that's what code was in there, so not sure what sense your statement makes in this context [18:43]
DicePower: Just have to ask jurov to expand on them a bit for me :) [18:43]
DicePower: But should be able to manage that easier probably [18:43]
danielpbarron: DicePower, have you even gotten it to run on linux yet? [18:43]
danielpbarron: the game client that is [18:43]
DicePower: No [18:43]
danielpbarron: so do that first [18:43]
DicePower: I actually thought compiling was the only option for Linux [18:44]
DicePower: Judging by the instructions [18:44]
danielpbarron: yes [18:44]
danielpbarron: do that [18:44]
danielpbarron: you don't need to edit code to compile it [18:44]
DianaComan: DicePower, the *easiest* way to compile on linux is command line, just follow what is on the wiki [18:44]
DianaComan: really [18:44]
DicePower: kk [18:44]
danielpbarron: you can just copy paste the line almost, i don't know why you think it's easier to move a mouse around [18:45]
DicePower: Yeah that part should be easy [18:47]
DicePower: Just wanted to set myself up for success on the code editing part [18:47]
DianaComan: walking all the time on tip-toes can result in atrophied muscles and then you certainly find it *easier* to walk on tip-toes - that might explain why he finds it easier to move a mouse around [18:47]
DicePower: But I'll try compiling for now [18:47]
DianaComan: DicePower, you can edit the code in anything you like and then still just repeat the process for compile as it is on the wiki [18:48]
DicePower: But I wouldn't be able to utility Eclipse's tools because the code wouldn't run at all on Eclipse unless I set up the stuffz anyhow? [18:49]
DianaComan: false [18:49]
DicePower: :O [18:49]
DianaComan: it doesn't "run on eclipse" anyway, what would that be? [18:49]
DicePower: So what would this strategy look like? [18:50]
DianaComan: how would I know what your strategy looks like? lol [18:50]
DianaComan: anyway, compile it for now, run it, go around a bit [18:50]
DianaComan: there's plenty of time for everything else, lol [18:51]
DicePower: This strategy "you can edit the code in anything you like and then still just repeat the process for compile as it is on the wiki." Would it be like 1) Take the current code and paste it into Eclipse, 2) edit code in Eclipse, 3) paste back into commandline? If you got step 2 to work well enough to compile and use the debugging tools in Eclipse, wouldn't step 3 be gratuitous? [18:52]
DianaComan: omg no [18:52]
DianaComan: ftr in eclipse just create a project importing the code from wherever you have it [18:52]
DianaComan: that means it will remain in sync - whatever changes you make [18:53]
DicePower: kk [18:53]
DianaComan: so no need to copy/paste sheesh [18:53]
DicePower: So you don't keep your projects inside the Eclipse directory somewhere like in Visual Studio? [18:53]
DianaComan: uhm, DicePower [18:54]
DianaComan: projects are still made of physical files you know [18:54]
DicePower: Yeah [18:54]
DicePower: But the code is part of those files, isn't it? [18:55]
DianaComan: or what now, books are kept on the shelf and therefore you can write in that book ONLY ON THE SHELF!!!! [18:55]
hanbot: i'm pretty curious how DicePower's eulora gameplay will pan out given his approach to things. mayhap he'll unearth various secrets only a total lack of assumptions could reveal. :D [18:55]
DicePower: LOL I can only hope [18:55]
DianaComan: hanbot, you say he has no assumptions there? [18:56]
DianaComan: I guess that'd be the optimistic view on it [18:56]
hanbot: well it's a sort of extreme look-before-you-leap operation, as far as i can tell. [18:57]
hanbot: and as the types of approaches grow, possibly also the results. optimistic, yeah. [18:58]
DianaComan: ftr DicePower: you can access the same files from anywhere you wish (eclipse, vim, emacs, nano ...) - they are still the same files [18:58]
mircea_popescu: DicePower> May as well check on Linux IDEs first. << and don't come back until you've raised a barn and made some noodles! [18:59]
mircea_popescu: DicePower> Something with a solid debugger and interface optimized for ease of use? << emacs [19:01]
DicePower: Is it too late to add "something that doesn't feel like DOS" to the list? [19:02]
mircea_popescu: DicePower> When better exists << because better doesn't exist. [19:04]
mircea_popescu: hanbot 3393 * 262 * 1.06 * 1.3 = 1224995 [19:06]
hanbot: tyvm [19:07]
DicePower: Okay so [19:07]
DicePower: Obviously the question of better is person dependent, but in general, one reason to prefer a GUI as better than a command line that does the same thing is because a GUI lends itself to more intuitive navigation. [19:08]
DicePower: That's kind of important when you're doing something new. [19:08]
DicePower: Not as important when you're experienced at a task. [19:09]
mircea_popescu: yes, but "more intuitive navigation" is like a train. it only helps tourists. natives generally want to go places more granularly defined than "a train station" [19:09]
mircea_popescu: hence, why everyone uses cars if they live there. [19:09]
danielpbarron: what is 3393 ?? [19:10]
DicePower: Maybe some of us are still in the moving stages :P [19:10]
Gaxaro: Hey there. [19:10]
mircea_popescu: but as DianaComan said, if you're trying to eat a whole project, something that shows up the call graph for instance visually is useful [19:10]
danielpbarron: oh nm that's quantity [19:10]
mircea_popescu: bitcoin for instance was cut up in the same way. but the people made a custom tool for the job. in lisp. [19:10]
Gaxaro: Just got back home from the cinema. The deadpool movie was pretty good. [19:10]
Gaxaro: Anyway, is the bug fixed and is my account back? [19:11]
mircea_popescu: mnope. [19:11]
mircea_popescu: but it IS being worked on. [19:11]
Gaxaro: Here i thought i were able to play today when i came back lol [19:12]
mircea_popescu: hopefully next week. [19:12]
Gaxaro: So what caused the bug anyway..? [19:13]
mircea_popescu: bad code ? who knows. [19:13]
mircea_popescu: people writing in gui, probably. [19:13]
Gaxaro: Coulden't i just make a new account for now? Lol [19:14]
mircea_popescu: mno [19:14]
Gaxaro: Alright. [19:15]
Gaxaro: I don't get it but oh well.. [19:18]
DicePower: Is it implicit that the reader is supposed to unzip the .tar.gz files with Archive Manager between steps 3 and 4? [19:20]
mircea_popescu: lemme see [19:20]
mircea_popescu: DicePower it is. plox edit to fix. [19:21]
DicePower: sure [19:21]
DicePower: Also should Ctrl Shift T be changed to Control Alt T for terminal? That seems to be how I open it in Zorin at least. [19:22]
Gaxaro: What are you talking about right now btw? [19:22]
mircea_popescu: can be simply "tar -zxvf name" or archive manager. [19:22]
DicePower: The Ubuntut install instructions http://www.eulorum.org/Ubuntu [19:22]
lobbesbot: Title: Ubuntu - Eulorum (at www.eulorum.org) [19:22]
mircea_popescu: and yes. no idea why it says shift [19:23]
DicePower: kk I'll edit [19:23]
mircea_popescu: i dunno that it's shift anywhere. [19:23]
Gaxaro: So if i get this straight. You're worried it will happen again if i had another account to make a char on? [19:26]
Gaxaro: Makes sense. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: i'm not anything dood. you had a character, did some stuff to it and now it dun work. it'll work later. what else is there ? [19:26]
Gaxaro: Nothing really. [19:27]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you there ? [19:30]
DicePower: Okay, added unzipping as an extra step http://www.eulorum.org/Ubuntu Look good? [19:35]
lobbesbot: Title: Ubuntu - Eulorum (at www.eulorum.org) [19:35]
Gaxaro: Oh well be back tomorrow then. [19:54]
DicePower: This is my file /dev/cal3d/configure.in http://hastebin.com/ilatepuzep.md It does not include the text AM_USE_UNITTESTCPP. Is there something else to comment out in its place, or was the line just removed from cal3d? [19:54]
lobbesbot: Title: hastebin (at hastebin.com) [19:54]
mircea_popescu: DicePower did you get the right version of cs ? [20:28]
mircea_popescu: # Check for unittest++ [20:31]
mircea_popescu: # AM_USE_UNITTESTCPP [20:31]
mircea_popescu: lines 61-62 in my cal3d/configure.in [20:31]
Birdman: where's fghj been i could use his lack of expertise [21:04]
mircea_popescu: how many sticks did you want, Birdman ? [21:29]
Birdman: a million [21:30]
Birdman: i gotta wait till i monetize otherwise im ordering without funds and thats not a good idea [21:30]
mircea_popescu: DicePower note that you must use the exact same cal3d version. using a different versin will not work. [21:30]
Birdman: i was going to ask if you would sell me 1.5k cs for 60mn [21:30]
mircea_popescu: i dun think i can make that many. [21:30]
mircea_popescu: moreover, i'd imagine it costs more to buy in bulk, not less. [21:31]
Birdman: why would that be? [21:31]
mircea_popescu: because finite stocks ? [21:31]
mircea_popescu: ask a girl for a night of her time, takes a cup of coffee. ask her for the rest of her nights, takes a god damned diamond ring. [21:32]
Birdman: heh right [21:32]
Birdman: well then what can i realistically buy right now? I may just want to hold off on the larger buy until at the least the bps situation is figured out [21:33]
mircea_popescu: atm i have about a dozen made, and still clicking. could be maybe 1-200 or so, and that's all. [21:33]
Birdman: and charging 60k a pop? [21:34]
mircea_popescu: it's what you offered. [21:34]
Birdman: yeah lol [21:34]
Birdman: well ill take em [21:34]
mircea_popescu: aite lemme finish this run then. be a coupla hours. [21:35]
Birdman: take your time [21:35]
mircea_popescu: idly wonders what 3mn in samovars bv + 2mn in toolkits would be even worth these days. [21:43]
mircea_popescu: 10 mn ? 20mn ? [21:43]
mircea_popescu: actually... this is starting to make sense to me. so noob, buys chetty sticks, 20k. goes and finds himself an ordinary. buys ordinary bundle, q250, like another 60k. builds the claim, it yields say 40k bv of stuff, but at q5. he sells it for 16x bv, ie as if it were q 80. spent 120k, made 640k. [21:48]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile veteran, goes barehanded, finds an ordinary, sells it to noob for at least 50k. same process. [21:48]
mircea_popescu: cs at 50-100k not even all that insane. [21:49]
Birdman: yep, but im now in a shitty spot where im getting smalls and my q items are still nothin special, but the output from claims is drastically lower [21:51]
Birdman: think i break even doing the cs at 160\% and mine the tlc selling for 2k a pop, paying the extra 30\% on the bundles and w/e the threads could cost [21:51]
mircea_popescu: what q do you mine ? [21:52]
Birdman: building q is like 57 farming groceries at 76 right now [21:56]
Birdman: the game plan is, because my tinkering is so low i will eventually over craft my own stuff to boost [21:56]
Birdman: get the overcraft loot and max exp for no \% over production cost [21:56]
DicePower: sorry away for longer than I thought I would be [21:56]
DicePower: mircea_popescu: Yeah, I just went by the guide. $ wget http://minigame.bz/eulora/binaries/cs_July24.tar.gz [21:56]
DicePower: same for the cal3d, I didn't try anything fancy here [21:56]
Birdman: unless i can dump it for the right price [21:57]
Birdman: tinkering is not my focus [21:57]
DicePower: mircea_popescu: I'd go for the girls young enough to live more days than diamond cost / coffee cost ;) [21:58]
mircea_popescu: DicePower weird then. but anyway, ignore see what happens. [22:03]
mircea_popescu: and no : the ring is ON TOP of regular coffee. [22:03]
DicePower: ahhh [22:03]
mircea_popescu: and if she manages to get knocked up, that's a cool mil. [22:05]
mircea_popescu: compare and contrast with 100 bux or w/e abortion goes for. [22:05]
mircea_popescu: the magical power of bulk buying irl. [22:05]
DicePower: Knocked up is only buying 1 night though. That doesn't seem to fit the model. [22:06]
mircea_popescu: i was still comparing the two variants. [22:08]
DicePower: Stupid question incoming [22:12]
DicePower: "If you are compiling for 32 bit on a 64 bit platform, you will also need multilib, installed separately." Is it possible to determine this before actually compiling the program, and/or does this need to be done prior to compiling? [22:12]
Birdman: take cover! [22:13]
DicePower: Too late, stupid question already asked ^^ [22:13]
mircea_popescu: DicePower you don't know if your computer is 32 or 64 bit ? [23:08]
DicePower: I was referring to the "if you are compiling for 32 bit" part not the "on a 64 bit platform" part. [23:09]
DicePower: I'm on a 64 bit OS [23:10]
mircea_popescu: so then you don't care. [23:11]
DicePower: I would care if the version I'm attempting to compile is 32 bit right? [23:12]
DicePower: It says if you are compiling 32 program on a 64 system, you need multilib. [23:12]
mircea_popescu: 32 or 64 bit is an attribute of the binary produced. binaries are produced through compilation, the compiler takes some code, spits out some stuff which gets linked together into a binary. [23:13]
DicePower: So that's to say I can't tell until the program is compiled? [23:13]
mircea_popescu: you are compiling on a 64 bit system for [the very same] 64 bit system. that concern does not apply to you. [23:13]
mircea_popescu: if you were compiling on your 64 bit system but in order that the binaries ran on a ~different~ computer which also was 32 bit, then it'd be of interest. [23:14]
DicePower: Okie [23:14]
DicePower: I just misunderstood it. [23:14]
DicePower: Response to $ ftjam -aq libs plugins cs-config walktest [23:27]
DicePower: http://hastebin.com/okolozesuj.vbs [23:27]
lobbesbot: Title: hastebin (at hastebin.com) [23:27]
DicePower: Any idea how to fix this? [23:28]
mircea_popescu: put it in dpaste, i dun have that bin here [23:28]
DicePower: kk [23:28]
DicePower: http://dpaste.com/0Q4PFRP [23:29]
lobbesbot: Title: dpaste: 0Q4PFRP (at dpaste.com) [23:29]
mircea_popescu: you're in the wrong directory. [23:32]
DicePower: doh! [23:33]
DicePower: nice catch [23:33]
DicePower: Did running $ ./configure --without-java --without-perl --without-python --without-3ds --with-cal3d=/home/ossa/dev/cal3d in the other directory screw with anything, or should I just run it again in the correct one? [23:33]
mircea_popescu: run again in the rigfht one [23:33]
DicePower: kk [23:34]
mircea_popescu: and i'll be off for teh night, take it easy. [23:34]
DicePower: kk have a good night [23:34]
DicePower: thanks for the assistance [23:34]

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