| diana_coman: | morning | [04:16] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu any chetty sticks for sale? and/or bundles for making imp tools or toolkits or anything else for that matter? | [04:17] |
| diana_coman: | jurov, what was the problem you had with the bot? | [04:18] |
| diana_coman: | it uses the nearest container really, or at least it tries to | [04:18] |
| jurov: | it suddenly decided my craft table isn't good enough and tried to place stuff iin the public one | [04:19] |
| chetty: | morning | [04:19] |
| jurov: | with that one worked and relogin did not help | [04:19] |
| diana_coman: | bonkers | [04:19] |
| diana_coman: | did you try to pickup and put down your craft-table again? | [04:19] |
| jurov: | today it's ok, i spun threads with mine | [04:19] |
| jurov: | yes i tried that several times | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, the only way I can see this happening is if it starts the search for some reason from the public table | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | since it returns the first matching thing it finds | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | though it should normally start from the nearest thing | [04:20] |
| diana_coman: | will put it on the list to check thoroughly on the new version, thanks | [04:21] |
| jurov: | morning all! chetty you're in bsas? you rose damn early then :) | [04:21] |
| chetty: | yeah I keep odd hours | [04:22] |
| chetty: | shinohai, did you catch mp to get an account yet? | [04:40] |
| shinohai: | Sure did, but I had driver issues last night, been a long time since I have done an ati driver install xD | [04:41] |
| shinohai: | I got to the part where I was making my character and it froze, plus I can't see any graphics | [04:42] |
| chetty: | ahh well good luck with the drivers, that sure can get nasty sometimes | [04:43] |
| chetty: | pretty amazing it got that far without good drivers :) | [04:44] |
| shinohai: | ikr | [04:46] |
| shinohai: | I actually thought the install would give me the most headaches, but it built smoother than anything I have done in a while lol | [04:46] |
| jurov: | shinohai: got coppers? | [05:20] |
| shinohai: | I dunno yet jurov I am still having driver issues: | [05:25] |
| shinohai: | $)â\u0094\u0080> glxinfo grep OpenGL | [05:25] |
| shinohai: | OpenGL vendor string: VMware, Inc. | [05:25] |
| shinohai: | OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on llvmpipe (LLVM 0x209) | [05:25] |
| shinohai: | OpenGL version string: 1.4 (2.1 Mesa 8.0.5) | [05:25] |
| jurov: | i'm on mesa 10.3.7 | [05:26] |
| shinohai: | hmmm | [05:27] |
| jurov: | OpenGL vendor string: X.Org | [05:30] |
| jurov: | OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on AMD BONAIRE | [05:30] |
| jurov: | OpenGL core profile version string: 3.3 (Core Profile) Mesa 10.3.7 | [05:30] |
| shinohai: | What do you use for management jurov | [05:36] |
| jurov: | what do you mean? | [05:36] |
| shinohai: | video settings | [05:37] |
| jurov: | nothing. turned some knobs from gentoo docs and it was all. | [05:38] |
| shinohai: | I've never needed awesum 3d graphics before :/ | [05:50] |
| chetty: | hahah we dont exactly have awesum graphics | [05:51] |
| shinohai: | I just bought my first tv in 5 years yesterday, i don't even watch it much or game lol | [05:53] |
| chetty: | tv? whats that? | [05:54] |
| shinohai: | Only show I care about watching doesn't air until Jan so I guess eulora can fill in the gap | [05:57] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu are you in game? | [09:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | i started a longer craft. anyway, you can have sticks and some tools for making imps in ~an hour. | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | dja got mushrooms ? | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | ok, works for me | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | i also need ~200 ibs | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | I have some, yes | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | ibs? | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | bark shvings | [09:57] |
| diana_coman: | oh, I have those | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | sure | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | only 200 ? lol | [09:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | ok, i take as many as you got np | [09:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's a date. | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | (I had just checked my own index pages to figure out what ibs was, lol) | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | ha ha, ok | [09:58] |
| diana_coman: | ping me if I don't answer in game | [09:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | that'd be massivewly inconvenient. i'll just ping you before | [10:00] |
| diana_coman: | sure | [10:00] |
| diana_coman: | even better | [10:00] |
| danielpbarron: | mircea_popescu> i also need ~200 ibs << i have over 1k | [10:29] |
| danielpbarron: | also, I just hit rank 200 in tinkering | [10:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | wd! | [10:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | ima buy it all! | [10:30] |
| danielpbarron: | you got any birdsnest gins? | [10:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | working on making those is what i use the ibs for. but i have some bbbs for you. and ima have bngs later apparently :) | [10:31] |
| danielpbarron: | and it's better that you make the flasks than me? | [10:33] |
| danielpbarron: | the last stack of flasks i sold you were made out of my own shavings | [10:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | depends what they get used for. if used for oil no. if used for gin processing yes. | [10:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | new development o.O | [10:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | ima have to keep two stashes of ltb, high and low now | [10:33] |
| danielpbarron: | almost everthing i have in storage is sorted that way | [10:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha | [10:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | o, got anything from the sparkles ? | [10:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | i was thinking as i was falling asleep ... how manyt of those go in ? they're like... > 150k each, you even got high enough level to absorb that ? | [10:35] |
| danielpbarron: | didn't do it yet | [10:35] |
| danielpbarron: | yes | [10:35] |
| danielpbarron: | er well | [10:35] |
| danielpbarron: | no not in sacrifice i don't | [10:35] |
| danielpbarron: | i'd really rather have supplication of berries | [10:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah srsly. | [10:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | well so make a bunch of those, what's missing ? | [10:36] |
| danielpbarron: | the blueprints | [10:36] |
| danielpbarron: | i need supplication of berries drafts | [10:36] |
| danielpbarron: | with that i could probably make more, as making the supplications usually gives me its own draft back as loot | [10:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | and those come from what ? | [10:38] |
| danielpbarron: | all the other drafts i got came from shredding | [10:38] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm not short berry drafts for lack of shredding though | [10:38] |
| danielpbarron: | they just don't wanna come out | [10:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | o.O | [10:39] |
| danielpbarron: | it's not just a matter of wasted exp | [10:39] |
| danielpbarron: | the other suppications are not sustainable | [10:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | how's that ? | [10:39] |
| danielpbarron: | i only have so many of the skill items to sacrifice, and they are super expensive to replace | [10:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | they are pretty expensive, but i got a decent stash of the lower value ones | [10:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron diana_coman ready to trade nao plox! | [10:44] |
| mod6: | someting is going bye bye | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | crash? | [10:55] |
| mod6: | yup | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu you prolly got 1 mil from me in the trade window, lol | [10:55] |
| danielpbarron: | to continue my thoughts in eulora, sacrifice is for getting rid of those skill items; not getting more of them | [10:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't know how to get more, for example, murky somethings | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | sounds weird, as the skills are surely still needed | [10:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm sure there is a way to make them | [10:56] |
| shinohai: | I may have solved my grafix issues. | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | i just don't know it yet | [10:56] |
| shinohai: | \o/ | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | so you sacrifice them and then get only a token? | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | yes | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | exactly | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | and experience | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | and in the case of berries, i get clovers | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | no idea there... | [10:56] |
| danielpbarron: | do you have supplication of berries drafts? | [10:57] |
| danielpbarron: | i never got any of those from shredding | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | don't think I have any of berries anymore | [10:57] |
| danielpbarron: | only ever had the initial 12 i got from the auction | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, maybe you set up grundin or someone else to shred? | [10:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | h fucking hell | [10:57] |
| danielpbarron: | shredding doesn't take the berry drafts | [10:57] |
| danielpbarron: | shredding 1 doesn't at least | [10:57] |
| danielpbarron: | are you on to shredding 2 ? | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | I mean: shred recipes to get the berry drafts | [10:58] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah, i've done a LOT of shredding | [10:58] |
| danielpbarron: | i have plenty of the other supplication drafts | [10:58] |
| danielpbarron: | and the drafts replentish themselves when i make them | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | don't tell me, I did a whole lot and even more overloaded than now (Read: way more expensive) back in the day when it supposedly gave the gung-ho gumbo | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | and without any luck | [10:58] |
| diana_coman: | so when it comes to luck matters, I have no clue | [10:59] |
| danielpbarron: | hah so is the berry sacrifice the most rare one or something? | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | possibly only the one someone else gets, lol | [10:59] |
| danielpbarron: | lame lame lame | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | initially I got tons of sparks when mp got none and on the other hand I was not getting any of the stuf he got, so ... | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | don't know | [11:00] |
| jurov: | mircea_popescu: how is the price from value formula now? storage value *1.1 ? | [11:01] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah what is the number listed in storage? | [11:02] |
| danielpbarron: | is that the npc sell value or the npc buy value? | [11:02] |
| danielpbarron: | or better yet, what is that number based on so i can just calculate it myself | [11:02] |
| jurov: | it's buy value | [11:03] |
| danielpbarron: | so the item is actually worth more than that number? | [11:03] |
| jurov: | actually yes | [11:03] |
| danielpbarron: | what \% spread does the npc use? | [11:03] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess i can check that | [11:03] |
| danielpbarron: | is it safe to say that 1 quailty point == 1 copper ? | [11:04] |
| danielpbarron: | alright i'm gonna have to make myself a price index | [11:05] |
| danielpbarron: | actually that would be a useful wiki page | [11:05] |
| danielpbarron: | so far i've been o.k. with MP setting all the prices since he's the only one i trade with in any substantial quantities | [11:06] |
| danielpbarron: | but i'm gonna need to know what to charge new people | [11:06] |
| jurov: | it's about 15\% | [11:09] |
| chetty: | server reset in 5 if no one objects | [11:11] |
| diana_coman: | one min chetty? | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | we are trading in there, lol | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, you kind of have to decide yourself on how you set prices | [11:13] |
| chetty: | say when | [11:14] |
| diana_coman: | ready now, thank you | [11:15] |
| danielpbarron: | i get that, but the items all chain back to a certain number of bits of nothing | [11:17] |
| chetty: | done | [11:18] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron as far as I know, that information is not directly and clearly available | [11:24] |
| diana_coman: | thank you, chetty | [11:24] |
| danielpbarron: | well it's made complicated (intentionally) by the fact that there is no cap on loot | [11:26] |
| diana_coman: | certainly; surprised? | [11:27] |
| danielpbarron: | so how do you price anything when everything you do could potentially yeild | [11:27] |
| diana_coman: | well, since when do you price things based on *potential*? | [11:27] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't know how to price things; I grew up on a stunted fake economy of crap | [11:27] |
| diana_coman: | a needle has the potential to kill my rich husband and make me a fortune in inheritance - hence I have to pay 1 million sterling for a needle? | [11:28] |
| chetty: | just give it the bezzle that makes you happy | [11:28] |
| diana_coman: | in the end something is worth whatever the buyer will pay for it, for one thing | [11:28] |
| danielpbarron: | i get that much | [11:28] |
| diana_coman: | and on the other hand and on a personal note, I use the merchant's prices to calculate a reference/base value | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | (can't guarantee that it is correct, but well) | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | and then decide | [11:29] |
| danielpbarron: | it'll get easier to figure out once more people are playing and there is some sort of listing of bids/asks | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | depending on the circumstance really | [11:29] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm pretty good at buying/selling MPOE | [11:29] |
| diana_coman: | there was the idea of bids and asks listings discussed a bit here some time ago | [11:30] |
| danielpbarron: | my eulora funds are part of my MPEx profits | [11:30] |
| chetty: | this is really a supply demand economy and at the moment tends to more demand than supply :) | [11:30] |
| diana_coman: | surely something useful, no doubt about it, but for the moment I think the best next to it is basically on people's pages /shops | [11:30] |
| diana_coman: | wd on the mpex part then | [11:31] |
| diana_coman: | I haven't really played that game | [11:31] |
| danielpbarron: | lol "game" | [11:31] |
| danielpbarron: | all of life is a game then | [11:31] |
| diana_coman: | what's in a name? | [11:32] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, isn't it? | [11:32] |
| diana_coman: | do tell me the differences | [11:32] |
| danielpbarron: | well life is a lot like poker | [11:32] |
| danielpbarron: | does that mean life is like a game? or that poker is like life? | [11:32] |
| diana_coman: | not sure why poker is a substitute for game | [11:32] |
| danielpbarron: | it's a game of pricing risk | [11:33] |
| diana_coman: | but my point is: any concrete holes in the approach "life is a game"? | [11:33] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah, The Bible | [11:34] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, how is that? | [11:34] |
| danielpbarron: | we have no agency; it is all God's will | [11:34] |
| danielpbarron: | you do not work your way into the kingdom of God | [11:34] |
| diana_coman: | even then: it just makes it god's game | [11:34] |
| diana_coman: | still a game though, lol | [11:34] |
| danielpbarron: | who is He playing against? | [11:35] |
| diana_coman: | so what, you mean if you are the pawn on the table of chess, then chess is not a game anymore? | [11:35] |
| danielpbarron: | chess requires 2 players | [11:35] |
| diana_coman: | it might even be a solitaire kind of game, lmao | [11:35] |
| danielpbarron: | then you are playing against the deck | [11:35] |
| danielpbarron: | but God created the deck, and ordered it | [11:35] |
| mod6: | in other news... boom? | [11:36] |
| diana_coman: | looks like that, mod | [11:36] |
| danielpbarron: | hasn't given me the disconnect message yet but i can't send a message | [11:36] |
| mod6: | i was building a small mine and when it went from threads -> bundle then it stopped. so i thought "oh its that bug".. so then i moved the bundle to another cell in the container. then the bundle disappeared. | [11:38] |
| danielpbarron: | it's not just you | [11:38] |
| mod6: | think that was just because the server was not responding | [11:38] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm still not officially disconnected though | [11:38] |
| mod6: | but at first, was like: o.O | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, same problem here | [11:39] |
| mod6: | me either | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | server is reported as reachable though | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | but no, it won't connect | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | maybe it finally went properly down now | [11:39] |
| diana_coman: | chetty? | [11:40] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron can't say much with that initial postulate of yours; I don't share it at face value and otherwise I find it at best a very pedestrian interpretation of reality | [11:43] |
| danielpbarron: | which postulate was that? | [11:44] |
| diana_coman: | that everything in this world is made and ordained by a God entity | [11:46] |
| diana_coman: | it seems that if I logged out, now I can't login anymore, even if the server is reported as reachable still | [11:48] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah i'm still "logged in" but nothing responds | [11:49] |
| danielpbarron: | as for the God thing, that's understandable; you can only believe if He created you for that purpose | [11:49] |
| diana_coman: | well then, apparently he created me for taking life as a game; surely each and any discussion can end with this kind of statement at any time when convenient, isn't it? | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | oh, finally reported as unreachable at least | [11:54] |
| danielpbarron: | yes i got disconnected | [11:54] |
| danielpbarron: | discussions about life.. yeah | [11:55] |
| diana_coman: | no real point having them then | [11:56] |
| danielpbarron: | maybe it is God's will that you come to believe and it is this conversation that finally convinces you | [11:58] |
| danielpbarron: | but yeah, no real point in pushing the issue | [11:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | jurov depends, really. for noobs i pay qual 100 value. for others i more or less try for merchant value *1.1, but it varies. | [11:59] |
| diana_coman: | uhm | [11:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | nielpbarron> is it safe to say that 1 quailty point == 1 copper ? << for most tools yes. not for imps tho. | [12:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron> but i'm gonna need to know what to charge new people << word. seriously eulora pricing is not a solved problem. | [12:00] |
| danielpbarron: | there is more to an improved tool than just having more uses? I noticed the improved hoe uses 202 quality points per use rather than 187 | [12:01] |
| danielpbarron: | which i guess might mean it has a 8\% greater chance of whatever | [12:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | <danielpbarron> so how do you price anything when everything you do could potentially yeild << ahh, the sweet sigh of the artist when his work is understdood! :D | [12:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron well, try sell them to electron see what he says | [12:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | <diana_coman> well, since when do you price things based on *potential*? << how do you price items ? note that this is a conundrum that goes way through all of economy toi the very underpinnings of actual ideologies constructing the world for people. if not by UTILITY, then what is utilitarianism anymore ? just how revolutionary are you going to get, to play a game. | [12:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | <diana_coman> and then decide << pretty much what i do too. | [12:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman jurov got 80k earlier for a pack he was expecting like 40k for or so, strictly because q 60 goods are (to me) just as valuable as q1 or q190 goods, which is to say : they sitll don't allow me to overcraft. | [12:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's basically the cutoff : if it overcrafts you, then it's worth the overcraft. if it doesn't, it's worth "the item", irrespective of its qual really. | [12:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | which makes for a strange sort of function. | [12:10] |
| diana_coman: | crash again? | [12:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | ~~~ in other news, we encountered a bit of an issue with a recent patch, server will be down for mebbe half hour | [12:17] |
| mod6: | ah ok. | [12:17] |
| mod6: | thought it was me with my WPL bundle again. | [12:17] |
| chetty: | looks like I need to patch my last patch, be a few minutes | [12:17] |
| mod6: | np thanks chetty | [12:17] |
| mod6: | :] | [12:17] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu I got that from your price structure, but at least atm I don't fully adhere to it | [12:19] |
| diana_coman: | it certainly makes sense and I can see it | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's good news because i don't fully adhere to it either | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | for one thing : if i craft with q1, i get much less xp than if i craft with q 100. | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | but well, possibly I don't yet need just as much precraft items (such as shaped slag or whatever) | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | this should be worth something. | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | precisely | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | that was quite the main part of what I had in mind | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | for another thing : some items decay. the samovar is like what, 3k ? | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | there IS a difference between q1 and q99 | [12:20] |
| diana_coman: | even if you don't overcraft | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | if the bundle is say 6k, and my output q is 200, then anything over 150 q in precursors actually hjelps me | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | etc. | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is less so the issue in tinkering, but even there, the recipe still has a value. | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | oh, wanted to ask: jurov says he got from you that the 1-9 quality thing is still on for the items that haven't been claimed. Is that so? | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | nah. | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | it was on, that sunday, but that sunday is past. | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | thought so, but well, he was quite sure it was still on | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | jurov, ^ | [12:23] |
| jurov: | on second reading, only the math part is open | [12:23] |
| jurov: | damn | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | aw! | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i am kind-of amused that out of all the lisp geniuses preaching lispness in b-a, no one has yet shat out the sexpr. | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suppose it's like rock music. | [12:24] |
| jurov: | is a bruteforce sexpr that walks all options and brings out optimal result, acceptable? | [12:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | certainly better than nothing | [12:28] |
| jurov: | started today with 9 axes only to realize after few hours it's not possible (alt least two must end up with the same q) | [12:31] |
| jurov: | and ofc to realize challenge expired | [12:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno right off how many danielpbarron used, but i would guess to the tune of 40-50 for the 27 output | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | tbh I had almost made a set of chetty sticks, but I just didn't have the time to finish it and anyway, attend the event | [12:34] |
| danielpbarron: | you need 10 axes to make 9, 10 hoes to make 9, and 11 adzes to make 9 | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | (was away that evening) | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | my approach was rather more direct and to the point of what I had, possibly due to how cs work too | [12:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | right because even decay adds 1 | [12:34] |
| danielpbarron: | it's 11 for adze because you need to stack 3 at once to have the floor() function shave off a quality point | [12:34] |
| danielpbarron: | and then add maybe 1 or 2 of each tool to account for you accidentally wearing one down too far and having to start over | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | just got the numbers of chetty sticks I had and combined until I got some that would be 1 point above the wear-down | [12:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | aga | [12:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | then the rest is just mixing | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | as once you have enough at 1 | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | you can make any other values really | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | it's the 1 that is the bottleneck as far as I'm concerned | [12:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman yeah the more sticks you have the eaiser it gets | [12:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | cause more options | [12:36] |
| danielpbarron: | i used 9 as my baseline, but i wasn't going for the most optimal method; i just figured out a method that worked and ran with it | [12:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | anywya, i believed it to be a very interesting math problem. | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | well, you just need the right quality as it were | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | given the time and all, I really did not try to truly solve the problem in a pure maths sense | [12:36] |
| diana_coman: | more like to engineer a practical solution I guess, lol | [12:37] |
| danielpbarron: | for my method, 9 was a good starting point because each itteration shaved off 1 point, so it's easier to get to 8 from 9 than from 1 to 2 | [12:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's kinda the thing, practical math which i love as a concept runs into the proiblem of the zipf curve | [12:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is to say, most of the people are too slow/practically bogged down by other stuff to do to get involved. | [12:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman but even trying to price the experience into it.. what is the value of experience ? | [12:41] |
| diana_coman: | that's why I said it depends on context really | [12:42] |
| diana_coman: | possibly a noob values experience highly, although on the other hand he might have the easiest time getting it, I suppose | [12:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | just on the surface of this "nothing in eulora can apparently be valued in any systematic manner - it's all fiat" i take it as a resplendent success of gaming. | [12:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | because supposedly this is what people want - an oasis where computers can't supplant them | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | you mean: an oasis where they can work hard on finding a way for computers to supplant them? | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | lol | [12:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman it is unclear that it is even valuable to him, tho. consider the case of supplication drafts. danielpbarron says he can't get them. why ? | [12:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suspect it's because he can't overcraft. and that in turn because his output q in shredding is too high compared to the input availabler | [12:43] |
| diana_coman: | I don't know whether he trained, I think he said he wouldn't | [12:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman sure, if it is even feasible. to my eyes the question is up in the air. | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron have you trained in bouquinism or what is your current level? | [12:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | i know for a fact and can prove that the probvlem of "find optimal pairing of master crafter - apprentice crafter over a given population" is pn complete. | [12:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is unclear to me just what complexity the problem of "establish the value of this stack" actually is | [12:45] |
| chetty: | well cross your fingers I fixed it, its up | [12:46] |
| diana_coman: | thanks chetty :) | [12:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | yay! | [12:47] |
| danielpbarron: | i did end up training in bouquinism | [12:47] |
| danielpbarron: | i do get overcrafts though | [12:47] |
| danielpbarron: | shredding overcrafts by definition | [12:49] |
| danielpbarron: | the input quality is typically 4k | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, but the question is how much overcraft | [12:49] |
| danielpbarron: | i doubt anyone would shred just to get 101 bits of nothing | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | that counts too wrt to what you get | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | sure, but you can certainly get only vellum recipes for instance | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | or whatever | [12:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron not shredding tho. making them | [12:50] |
| danielpbarron: | well i get plenty of the other supplication drafts | [12:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | you usually get a recipe by making it | [12:50] |
| danielpbarron: | and i get replacement drafts as loot when i craft a draft | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | I would in any case set a newcomer to do some shredding tooo | [12:50] |
| danielpbarron: | i just never got a berry supplication draft in the first place | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron so then you do have drafts ? | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu I think he said he didn't get one specific type of supplication | [12:51] |
| danielpbarron: | yes | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | not that he didn't get any in general | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh you never got one specific kind ? | [12:51] |
| danielpbarron: | i specifically want the berries one | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | just as I never got the gung-ho gumbo thing | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | and when you make berry ones you don't get more ? | [12:51] |
| danielpbarron: | i never had a berries draft | [12:51] |
| danielpbarron: | only the supplication themselves, that you gave me in the auction | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | o you had leather ? | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | although I got quite a number of sparks | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh oh i see what you mean | [12:51] |
| danielpbarron: | and a supplication does not seem to give itself as loot in an overcraft | [12:52] |
| danielpbarron: | as that would be a very very valuable loot | [12:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | but did you make all others ? what all is there, leather ? | [12:52] |
| diana_coman: | well, I guess there are some chances to get that too, but you need a lucky click indeed | [12:52] |
| danielpbarron: | (supplications cost at least 1 birdsnest gin + 1 beetlebrew) | [12:52] |
| danielpbarron: | that's the most basic | [12:53] |
| danielpbarron: | the fancier ones cost several times more | [12:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | so which drafts did you already get danielpbarron ? | [12:53] |
| danielpbarron: | you have to get really drunk to make these things | [12:53] |
| danielpbarron: | rocks, murky, chicken, lists | [12:53] |
| danielpbarron: | almanac | [12:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | o wow check that out. | [12:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | almanac! | [12:54] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah i'm sure i have some valuable stuff | [12:54] |
| danielpbarron: | but i want the basic one to rank up without wasting exp | [12:54] |
| danielpbarron: | before i use them | [12:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | makes sense | [12:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | so you have the 12 berries supplications you got in auction, but absolutely no drafts of berries supl. | [12:54] |
| danielpbarron: | right | [12:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | or of anything else like that | [12:55] |
| danielpbarron: | and *had | [12:55] |
| danielpbarron: | used them all | [12:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, you never got a berries draft, or anything else ? | [12:55] |
| danielpbarron: | correct | [12:55] |
| danielpbarron: | or if i did, i used it and didn't get replacements | [12:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | doh. | [12:55] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't recall | [12:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | aaaand i just found a hole roflmao. | [12:56] |
| danielpbarron: | so for future reference i guess if i find one i should set up some noob as an apprentice bouqinist | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | ok. sunday we shall have an auction. | [12:56] |
| jurov: | i apprentice bouquinized, but apprently have too high tinkering | [12:56] |
| danielpbarron: | ah that may be what is throwing me off | [12:57] |
| danielpbarron: | i have very high tinker rank | [12:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | it will consist of a package of 100 Supplication of Leather Drafts, q 1000, base value 3k (for the whole lot). | [12:57] |
| danielpbarron: | i think i'm 3rd? | [12:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | the reason no one looted this entire branch is because apparently i never seeded it o.O | [12:57] |
| danielpbarron: | unless i overtook Foxy | [12:57] |
| danielpbarron: | lol | [12:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | so, get your bidding gloves ready. | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | ahahah | [12:58] |
| chetty: | someone needs a low level tinker? hows 10ish? | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | gotta love holes in a shredding thing | [12:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | wow that'd be great chetty. | [12:59] |
| danielpbarron: | i think with quality 1000 anyone could get decent loot | [12:59] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu re previous discussion: utility of things is one thing, while "potential" (as daniel said) is quite a different matter; I wasn't as much against basing the price on utility as basing it on the undefined (and quite undefinable I'd say) "potential". Otherwise it's kind of magic potion and charms selling: this particular charm is very lucky, very very valuable missus | [13:16] |
| lobbesbot: | New post: http://trilema.com/category/smg/feed/ Sunday, August 9th event : Auction! <http://trilema.com/2015/sunday-august-9th-event-auction/> | [13:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman well ok, but what is the definition of utility ? "what they may yield" | [13:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | the comparison with needle is not apt for this reason | [13:53] |
| chetty: | depends if it is one and only one needle that will do the job :P | [13:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | the case would be more apt if the needle was an orange whicvh if peeled had a \% chance to yield a husband | [13:57] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu mhm, so you define utility as what it "may" yield? sure, a lottery ticket is priced more than the paper it is printed on, but uhm, not exactly directly derived from the value of the max prize as far as I can tell | [15:04] |
| diana_coman: | and given that ALL actions may yield maxint, I don't see any point there anyway | [15:14] |
| shinohai: | well i am installed, my drivers work, but eulora runs so slow when i try to delete my old character or enter my password. | [15:19] |
| shinohai: | so i dont think my laptop is good enough :/ | [15:19] |
| diana_coman: | have you tried to get some of the graphics effects out? | [15:22] |
| shinohai: | not yet, will research that | [15:23] |
| danielpbarron: | shinohai, http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-07-21.log.html#t16:27:06 | [16:23] |
| lobbesbot: | #Eulora log for Tuesday, 2015-07-21 (at logs.minigame.bz) | [16:23] |
| diana_coman: | hmmmm, found another sport for deserted crab shell | [16:24] |
| mod6: | and we found a pretty large EPS spot too | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | mod found that, he means :) | [16:53] |
| mod6: | and yeah, not just another DCS spot, a big ole strip of 'em | [16:56] |
| mod6: | and more SMs too | [16:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | snails are good | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'd buy some hi q snails | [18:06] |
| diana_coman: | oh, how many snails ? | [18:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno, 1k ? | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | ok, will dig them up then | [18:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | people keep asking this "how many" as if it's a cogent consideration. pretty much all queries return "infinity, basically" | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | given the limited resources to go and mine all the stuff | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | it's not really pointless | [18:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | also true yea | [18:10] |
| diana_coman: | (limited resources = limited time mainly) | [18:10] |
| shinohai: | danielpbarron: followed those directions you posted in log, now won't start with segfault | [18:11] |
| danielpbarron: | worked for me | [18:12] |
| shinohai: | ART ERROR: Invalid material reference 'ceramic_dds' in meshfact 'crafttable' submesh 'crafttable.003-ceramic_dds' | [18:12] |
| danielpbarron: | you snipped too much or the wron stuff | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | keep trying shinohai | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | that error is related to the driver I think, but it's kind of random | [18:12] |
| danielpbarron: | although i was able to log in and had been playing for months before i attempted that | [18:12] |
| diana_coman: | (I get it sometimes too, but I couldn't really figure out why/when) | [18:13] |
| shinohai: | tries to resist dousing his computer with gas and lighting it | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | ha ha, I know the feeling | [18:13] |
| danielpbarron: | i will be doing a fresh install of gentoo on new "iron" soon | [18:13] |
| danielpbarron: | a particular machine recommended by ascii | [18:13] |
| danielpbarron: | that i bought months ago and haven't really put to use yet | [18:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | not bad. | [18:14] |
| danielpbarron: | i am very lazy and hadn't needed to do it until now, now that my eulora macros are preventing me from keeping up with log reading | [18:14] |
| shinohai: | Nope that error wasn't it at all. It just crashed because of whatever I snipped. | [18:14] |
| danielpbarron: | actually need two machines with graphics now | [18:14] |
| shinohai: | replaced w backup and it starts | [18:15] |
| danielpbarron: | well you are clearly snipping the wrong thing | [18:15] |
| danielpbarron: | i almost did this too, and had to carefully re-read the instructions and the xml i was snipping | [18:15] |
| danielpbarron: | there are parts that look similar but aren't it | [18:15] |
| diana_coman: | mod6 found ae at -52 34 151, sigh | [18:16] |
| danielpbarron: | ae? | [18:16] |
| danielpbarron: | oh | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | abandoned eggs | [18:16] |
| shinohai: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-07-21.log.html#t16:32:13 | [18:16] |
| danielpbarron: | eggs | [18:16] |
| lobbesbot: | #Eulora log for Tuesday, 2015-07-21 (at logs.minigame.bz) | [18:16] |
| danielpbarron: | there are some near spawn | [18:16] |
| danielpbarron: | among the flotsam | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | I know | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | that's why: sigh | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | I was hoping for something better given how blind the spot was | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | lol | [18:16] |
| diana_coman: | still, they are not on the map, hence the message for mod | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | shinohai look in the cfg first, lotta good stuff there. | [18:20] |
| shinohai: | It must be something there. I can sign in and thats as far as it goes | [18:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | <danielpbarron> my eulora macros are preventing me from keeping up with log reading << lol old accounts with high skills will be basiclaly like btc miners | [18:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | finally, an asic proof coin! | [18:24] |
| diana_coman: | you left those pickaxes on the ground mircea_popescu, lol | [18:25] |
| diana_coman: | maybe the sweeper gets them | [18:25] |
| shinohai: | mircea_popescu: you mean .Eulora/option.cgf? | [18:26] |
| shinohai: | *cfg | [18:26] |
| shinohai: | meh i don't think this is for me | [18:28] |
| diana_coman: | crash.. | [18:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | back | [18:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | wtf mechant crash now ? | [18:33] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, and it got me all the way back to the sands, lol | [18:35] |
| diana_coman: | ha, mircea_popescu found 2 items with same initials... the tuber milk and treebark mockasillies | [19:27] |
| danielpbarron: | diana_coman, have you considered adding a section to your recipes pages that lists what the specified item can be used in? | [19:34] |
| diana_coman: | it's on the list, yes | [19:34] |
| danielpbarron: | for example, the flat clump of slag page might list that it is used to make samovar and hoe | [19:34] |
| diana_coman: | as well as a bill of materials | [19:34] |
| danielpbarron: | nice | [19:35] |
| diana_coman: | it's just that everything takes time irl too, lol | [19:35] |
| diana_coman: | btw, I was looking a bit at your macro running yest | [19:36] |
| diana_coman: | and it seems way, way slower than the bot | [19:36] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose it is more robust atm (or I hope) | [19:36] |
| diana_coman: | curious though if you have any timings for it? | [19:37] |
| diana_coman: | like how long does it take to craft say 100 bark shavings | [19:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | CFT is 6 seconds for me. DG is 10. | [19:47] |
| danielpbarron: | i put 1 second delay between every click | [19:56] |
| danielpbarron: | because xmacro doesn't support fractions of a second | [19:56] |
| danielpbarron: | obviously the whole xmacro thing is a dirty hack that should be eventually abandoned | [19:56] |
| danielpbarron: | so i'm not going to fret over it too much | [19:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | certainly the foxy bot is a much better thing. | [20:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | once we gert it to where it no loinger crashes server it'll be spiffy | [20:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | chetty's been working her butt off on this. a bit of an onion, but definite progress each day and week | [20:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | eventually won't be any more leaves to peel. | [20:01] |
| mod6: | < diana_coman> mod6 found ae at -52 34 151, sigh << thanks! | [20:55] |
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