| mircea_popescu: | yo diana_coman | [07:36] |
| diana_coman: | yo | [07:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | so how are things standing with eulora dev ? | [07:37] |
| diana_coman: | re server you mean? | [07:37] |
| diana_coman: | I have it running locally perfectly fine | [07:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | this on protocuntoo ? | [07:39] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: yes; protocuntoo on intel atm (because that was the last testing machine really, could equally well turn on the protocuntoo on amd for the same money) | [07:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | cool. and what are you hacking on ? | [07:40] |
| diana_coman: | on server side: extracting the core (ie the already defined and implemented part of smg comms) and then porting on that bits by bits the useful stuff only (ie getting rid of all the cs in the process); seems we are quite there to do this really. | [07:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's splendid. | [07:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | what's the eta ? | [07:41] |
| diana_coman: | on client side: all this testing of different computers revealed that graphics are entirely unreliable really - something will work like this on that and different on the other and it's driving me nuts. | [07:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh. article baking i imagine ? | [07:42] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: for an initial extracting of *only very basic core* aka mainly key management (creating accounts for new registrations, sending S keys etc) | [07:43] |
| diana_coman: | the eta for the above would be end of this week really, I have it quite clearly mapped. | [07:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah joy | [07:44] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: on client side further I dug (had no choice but to do it and I'm still hung up over it) into shaders too because a *lot* of trouble seems to stem from there | [07:45] |
| diana_coman: | and it's probably the shaders I'll need to try and explain a bit first | [07:45] |
| diana_coman: | for that matter the whole variations otherwise are still - to me at least - rather..inexplicable, just nuts. | [07:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | listens | [07:46] |
| diana_coman: | ah, can do it here, why not | [07:46] |
| diana_coman: | CS calls "shaders" snippets of surface-definition basically | [07:47] |
| diana_coman: | so the idea is that you can define types of surfaces eg cloth, water, terrain | [07:47] |
| diana_coman: | and reuse parts or all of them | [07:47] |
| diana_coman: | where "defined" means a lot of different things really | [07:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | right | [07:47] |
| diana_coman: | including a number of rendering passes and what happens in each | [07:48] |
| diana_coman: | and lighting (to some extent, not fully) | [07:48] |
| diana_coman: | and moreover, in principle, parametrised ie having variables | [07:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | in the sense that in this fictitious world, lighjt ~emanates from the seen object~, as in the old platonic model. | [07:48] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: it's meant to be reflected light really | [07:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright | [07:49] |
| diana_coman: | but angles of the surface at that point (hence, direction) and otherwise properties (mainly two are used aka diffuse & specular) | [07:49] |
| diana_coman: | getting back to the variables, those are then to be set from code | [07:50] |
| diana_coman: | when you decide to use that shader on some object (of any sort) | [07:50] |
| diana_coman: | this much would seem relatively ok and sane but then: | [07:50] |
| diana_coman: | 1. those variables can be overwritten in fact on various levels (material comes to mind first) | [07:51] |
| diana_coman: | 2. the shaders themselves consist in a bunch of xml files that *make use of one another* in a glorious spaghetti | [07:51] |
| diana_coman: | "for code reuse!!" | [07:51] |
| diana_coman: | 3. the internal implementation in CS using those shaders is through... plugins | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | and it's not even clear which ones exactly because apparently different shaders by different plugins or even possible parts of a shader require that or the other plugin | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | some also rely on external dependencies eg cg | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | takes 1 min break to calm back down. | [07:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [07:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | so basically you're seeing a lot of benefit from cutting out some of that expensive if useless "optionality" of the fauxly constructed ourdemocracy kind | [07:53] |
| diana_coman: | hell yes, but the trouble is how the fuck to cut it and still have something working | [07:54] |
| diana_coman: | especially that if I take a knife to graphics, there won't be anything left and I'll still cut some more if it's after my heart, lol. | [07:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | and, conversely, its cost and disutility perhaps constitutes a significant explanation of why so little movement on community dev side | [07:54] |
| diana_coman: | ah, I didn't mention that there are also at least two types of ...shader "compiler" in use | [07:55] |
| diana_coman: | and I can't say I fully get what the difference is | [07:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | that they're the claims to "immortality" of two very different, subjectively, groups of fare idiots. | [07:55] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: certainly. | [07:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://trilema.com/2019/forum-logs-for-27-oct-2013#945020 << meanwhile in blasts from teh past. naggum lulzing at teh faretard. | [07:55] |
| diana_coman: | basically we have the S.MG discussion in #e for once as refugees from #t deluge, lolz. | [07:56] |
| diana_coman: | getting back to further graphics madness since we are at it: | [07:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | wait | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | all that CS dance with factories (for reusability!!!) and instances and wrappers and shits | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | ok, waiting. | [07:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | let me quote that whole thing, it's fucking beaUTIFUL | [07:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | "the more insane drivel I read from proponents of Free Software and Open Source, the more convinced I am that this once noble movement will go away and not even become a footnote in the history of mankind when their real goal has been achieved: the destruction of Microsoft." | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | and " I'm bothered by the | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | fact that stupid people don't spontaneously combust, which they should." | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | "some day, I hope you will start to listen to people who have worked with Free Software for the better part of a decade and have wondered (1) why people get much enthused but then leave disappointed and disgruntled, (2) why free software programs gain a very high quality as long as the goal is very clear, and (3) why it then goes on to accrete crappy features nobody needs but are fun to add by the less competent people w | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | ho are unable to accept that an idea has fully matured. (watch GNU ls acquire "human" sizes, for instance: multiples of 1000, instead of 1024.) | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | " | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | ahaha, yes | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | dude is so fucking on point. and this was, mind you, 90s, ie way before i for instance saw or comprehended any of this, and before by a stretch, not days not weeks. decade+ | [07:59] |
| diana_coman: | yes, he is and for all the good it did to him. | [07:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | but this is exactly what's happening : two compilers for shaders where even one being needed at all's a stretch because of the deluge of humanity, base, useless, literate-only whom clinton lied to into the belief they belong in | [08:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | town | [08:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | or whatever, ceausescu lied the same lie, it's this post-war sovietism of telling barn animals they belong in the city. | [08:01] |
| diana_coman: | well, the saying went to lower "the barriers to entry" so that "everyone can code", no? there, everyone DID code, isn't that great. | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | these aren't human in any sense, but importantly ~they wish to be~ (and their bar to being is the holy "nobody can accuse of not"), and so they... make things. they "contribute". watch your city walls decay while they get new drapery. | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman, no, it's terrible. | [08:02] |
| diana_coman: | it is. | [08:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, the ideological excursion out of the way, let's get back to business : lotta cancercode in there you're cutting out. this is right good an' proper, let fare, poettering, althauser & co be ever remembered by the humorists and them only. nothing wrong with that. | [08:04] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: the trouble is now wtf am I to cut out because those "shaders" are not even directly in cs code, they are a ton of interlaced xml | [08:04] |
| diana_coman: | and then some more, what do I do, I go and cut out parts of CS? | [08:04] |
| diana_coman: | or how exactly? | [08:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | let me work by metaphore. | [08:05] |
| diana_coman: | I mean: I get it, once cleaned, there will hopefully be people even wanting to do something with it; (I know I would rather do something with the clean client); still, getting to that clean... | [08:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | suppose theres a foot between the wall and the computer, and suppose there's a quarter mile of incomprehensibly tangled power cord uniting the two. | [08:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | the computer works, but the tangle's the tangle. | [08:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | so what man does is, man goes to store, buys two foot cord by spec, that fits both plugs, in wall and in machine, then turns the latter off, replaces the tangle and turns it back on | [08:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | can you cut through the mess by producing minimally viable straight path ? | [08:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | "minimal, viable" not "minimally viable", i mean | [08:06] |
| diana_coman: | lol | [08:06] |
| diana_coman: | my current understanding is that the tangle is half-way into the machine aka CS too; hence my ???? | [08:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | (viable, by the way, literally means via-able, that can be coursed, run through, walked upon. and has, for lo these 2500 years since via flaminia) | [08:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman, as in there's no clearly delineated plug on the machine ? more like a placenta/umbilicum sorta thing ? | [08:07] |
| diana_coman: | more like 1001 ventouses where various bits attach, as far as I can see, myeah | [08:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | so pick one of the 10001 holes competing for attention ? | [08:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's how men mate after all. | [08:08] |
| diana_coman: | hmm, not sure things are clear there somehow; let me see from the other end: do you suggest I dig in CS and figure out how to directly get from it what I want it to do, ditching all those shaders xmls and whatnots? | [08:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes | [08:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't see there's any other approach available if the matter's to be approached at all. | [08:10] |
| diana_coman: | worth a try at least; because the alternative trying to patiently disentangle that kraken of a mess will certainly take longer. | [08:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | moreover, it's likely to produce very little in the way of upside. | [08:10] |
| diana_coman: | that is true | [08:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | like disentangling a ftp servlet wittly written in php. why the fuck would i want the parts. | [08:10] |
| diana_coman: | the initial idea was that "minimal change" | [08:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | that it was, but this seems the minimal cut here. | [08:11] |
| diana_coman: | honestly, it probably is and moreover I would certainly much, much rather cut it out than not; but I still can't say 100\% what is fully in CS and basically this is pretty much what I need to start eating now if it's to go that way, not much option otherwise | [08:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | so basically your "as the river drives" path here is, move on to fixing client, remove cruft atop gfx engine ? | [08:13] |
| diana_coman: | and the fact that the guy wrote it in a few months + added all sorts by all sorts afterwards is more of a downside for "full comprehension in 1 month" than anything | [08:13] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: it sounds more like "move on to fixing client, extract core of gfx engine" | [08:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | i mean, extract minimal server first, and dump cs etc off sever that way. this to be done by end of nov ; and then, move to simplifying cs on client side, as discussed. | [08:14] |
| diana_coman: | yes; sigh. | [08:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | this seems fine to my eye. | [08:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | done... this year ? | [08:14] |
| diana_coman: | ahahaha | [08:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | well if not, we talk again of it come january, huh. | [08:15] |
| diana_coman: | and then I quit | [08:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | gotta have goals in life | [08:15] |
| diana_coman: | end of nov yes; then it's December and no, I can't promise I'll fully extract core of CS mess etc in one december and coming after all this, sorry. | [08:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not looking for a promise lol. it's just the tentative estimation. we see. | [08:15] |
| diana_coman: | o.O did I miss...goals? :)) | [08:16] |
| diana_coman: | I'll try to map it out and get back to keeping it well reported on | [08:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | purfect. | [08:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | aite, this is good then. | [08:17] |
| diana_coman: | this last month with all the pizmess and ulterior fallout on all fronts did make also a mess of reporting since well, all sorts popped up instead of what was in the plan | [08:17] |
| diana_coman: | thanks. | [08:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah, i'm aware. it's ok, though, we're not in a distressed state here. | [08:18] |
| feedbot: | http://ossasepia.com/2019/11/24/some-questions-for-early-mornings/ << Ossa Sepia -- Some Questions for Early Mornings | [10:45] |
| diana_coman: | lemme cite from CS manual for the ages: "Crystal Space is a highly modular framework. As such it is more complex then many other game engines or renderers you might encounter. The advantage of this complexity if that it offers you a lot of power in what you do and how you use it." | [13:23] |
| diana_coman: | or such was the dream there. | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | to add from only 2 paras down: "the components and libraries are *more or less* independent of each other" (emphasis is mine). | [13:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [17:29] |
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