Day changed to 2026-03-01
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im kind of lost
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[01:29] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[01:29] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.87 -18.81 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: now im on the aged lane of remorse
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: im so lost
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: how can i get back to ppp D:
[08:04] Raphael Nethersmell: Felicia Solecrimp, you're 2 sectors to the left of ppp. go to x=500 to cross into funky hammock of glum and then x=500 to get back to ppp
[17:52] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: you should also be able to press 'p' to view the map of sectors you discovered so far
Day changed to 2026-03-02
[04:33] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the saturine lane of inevitatibility
[04:34] Felicia Solecrimp: im panicking a little
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: okay im i the funny hammcok of glum
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: somehow
[08:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, different trainers will have their own training skill/ability as it were, so possibly Faith Kidneyguard is less experienced yet hence less effective than Ulrich Logfetch but still, no xk increase at all sounds strange indeed, I recall I certainly did train with her successfully, I'll add it to the list to check further on it serverside, thanks for reporting it.
[08:28] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, the anti-panic route goes through accepting the trouble and then paying attention to how things change as you attempt to do something about it, taking the time to figure out what's going on rather than trying to just get out of it without being none the wiser. You have the map command (with the p shortcut by default as Vivian Sporepress already told you) so you can figure out exactly where you are. If you actually check your coordinates before and after a sector change you'll quickly understand how that part works too and Raphael Nethersmell already told you quite specifically how to go in at least one direction, the rest are similar.
[14:40] Raphael Nethersmell: I've been exclusively training with Faith Kidneyguard since she's been introduced, fwiw.
[15:11] Diana Coman: good to know she is of use and it helps get her better at it, too!
[16:07] Vivian Sporepress: it might have been ziggurating that I trained with her before which is still lower than my gathering level, if it's a matter of her limits.
[16:11] Diana Coman: possibly the gathering is at a point where it takes quite a few explores to advance enough for 1xk % (hence for the advance to be visible), indeed
[16:27] Vivian Sporepress: it is, but wasn't going anywhere with Faith and then back to normal slow advancement with Ulrich.
[16:32] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4538 - over a week later, it seems most of the pile is still there and still inaccessible, most curious. I've noted a couple specific item IDs+coords to see if they're really sticking around or still being dug up or what.
[16:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: the pile of lbn remains unavailable to me.
[16:41] Diana Coman: that's interesting at least, I thought it was made by someone with a bot not running pickall so by the sounds of it, it's still owned quite a lot of time later - maybe the owner is still close enough
[16:45] Vivian Sporepress: could be I just haven't been able to see them because the quantity of lbn saturates knowledge acquisition for longer than I cared to stick around in the requisite spot
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: when an lbn q1 appears on the ground but hasn't been picked up yet, is it even owned by anyone, though?
[16:46] Diana Coman: well, if it's the result of your action then it is owned by you, otherwise how would you even be able to link it in any sort of way to your action, really?
[16:47] Diana Coman: maybe by position at most, I suppose, but in any case, iirc it is owned, yes
[16:48] Diana Coman: if it weren't, it would also lead to potential aggravation via someone snatching your stuff away, which is pretty much what owning is made to negate in the first place
[16:49] Diana Coman: if it just spawns though, then there wouldn't be an owner yet, logically speaking
[16:51] Diana Coman: fwiw if one is literally aiming to harvest lbn q1 by itself, the bot can be made to do it quite successfully if set to explore in a lbn-patch with pickall and just a few checks before moving on (so that it doesn't wait for a work object that never comes)
[17:00] Vivian Sporepress: is there a way to check item ownership (at least for self) through the data hierarchy? all I found so far in the GUI was accessibility. when I did the data reconstruction for my first mapmaking, I was filling in the LBN spots manually since indeed, no way to be sure if this lbn is a result of my own activity or just happened to be there.
[18:06] Diana Coman: ownership is not exposed specifically to the client, no, only in the negative as in something being inaccessible even when within range otherwise because your char doesn't own it. In other words: you can tell when it is *not* yours, but not whose it might be.
[18:07] Diana Coman: perhaps if I get around to add the maker mark and expose that, I might expose the ownership too, though not yet decided either way.
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[21:43] Faith Kidneyguard: Vivian Sporepress, I am currently at 60.36 98.40 8.52 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: moves around a lot, does she.
[23:45] Vivian Sporepress: 44 claims explored and no xk gained from Faith. maybe 1 xp gained from work that happened between training refreshes.
Day changed to 2026-03-03
[00:03] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4554 - looking at a recent crafting dataset, most of it supports this interpretation i.e. qabv of returned recipes is less than qabv per item of the returned items, but there's one that doesn't: 1 cdg q10 + 1 cftr q10 => cft bundle q3 => 1 cft q5 + 16 cftr q5. That seems to come to 14.4 qabv for the recipes vs 9 for the cft
[00:03] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: e.g. I just got now 1 cft q44 and 6 cftr q 44, which is 0.44*180= 79 the cft and 6*0.44*18=47 the 6 cftr, meaning that the full output simply was below 2 cft, looks like 1 cft and...change given as cftr, lolz
[00:07] Vivian Sporepress: also interestingly, I often get higher total value in outputs than in inputs consumed, in qabv terms, sometimes even outweighing the wear on the table
[00:26] Vivian Sporepress: and I'm definitely starting to suspect astrological effects on ziggurating because I'm currently getting way less in both quality and count of nt for the same inputs as recorded previously
[00:28] Vivian Sporepress: even compared to a time where my enums had the same lbn range reading, a bit lower than its peak
[13:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, checking on Faith Kidneyguard revealed that your xk has been increasing while training with her, only indeed by the almost minimum possible amount, which would take indeed a *lot* of time to show up as 1% due to the low input + relatively lower training experience she has + your relatively high rank. In other words: there is enough variance wrt training outcomes, too.
[13:04] Diana Coman: still, for now and given the starting situation otherwise, Faith Kidneyguard did some intensive learning of her own so that she's now closer to Ulrich Logfetch in skill at least. Their respective personal abilities don't change though.
[13:05] Diana Coman: and in time if people keep training with only one of them, the other will fall behind anyhow - though possibly beginners might find a beginner trainer more than enough and otherwise more easily available.
[16:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[16:04] Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[16:52] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[16:56] Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[18:39] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[18:39] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:53] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[18:53] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-01-28 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, is it really that difficult to write one line instead of 3 out of which 2 are just noise? For the record, there is already in place a filtering mechanism based on WoT ratings but I would hope it doesn't become actually needed all that soon.
Day changed to 2026-03-04
[09:06] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4784 - perhaps due to lower skill, perhaps due to insufficient number of attempts or even detail level (aka how small should the step be between consequent explore attempts to have any sort of confidence that one hasn't missed something - or at least how does one even *measure/estimate* such certainty, exactly?). While I could perhaps attempt some rough ranges for different resources based on what I observe as their overall spread throughout the various maps compiled so far, the trouble is that the more valuable ones seem to have way smaller ranges which means in turn that one needs a really small step to be able to say they at least stood a chance of finding them - but then I'm not even sure there is yet the data to estimate the probability that it wasn't missed *anyway*
[09:06] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[09:10] Diana Coman: as the very basic, one would need to keep track of attempts in one place and resulting findings, though probably best at a place where they already know what can be found, to then get some observed probabilities. Further messed up by the unknown impact of skill(s) on such empirical findings but anyway, it would be at least something indeed. Perhaps also something more appealing than all the usual dry book-exercises otherwise as a way to learn and apply statistics and data processing, but what do I know.
[09:14] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - oh hey, that's a first indeed, isn't it. And welcome back to life for dorion-mode, too!
[09:14] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[09:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[09:55] Diana Coman: come to think of this very first mention of e2 outside my own site, I don't really know what stops anyone from simply taking quotes from the notices and/or log and making from them small snippets to post with a link on any other place where they are active
[10:12] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[10:12] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[10:15] Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[10:18] Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
Day changed to 2026-03-05
[05:02] Vivian Sporepress: Nice to hear of Faith's levelup, I can give her another try.
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4782 - my crafting input and outputs are still pretty low value overall and the return of recipes is a drag on effiency, so dunno, will see how it continues.
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4783 - were any of those reproducible though?
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[05:06] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[05:07] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[05:39] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 - same. ambiguous parse tree that first came out as the puzzling version.
[05:39] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[05:55] Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[05:57] Vivian Sporepress: overall I found the article quite readable.
[08:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the findings in PPP were/are reproducible, only not reliably at each explore since most likely they can't really be, as long as there are clearly several resources at the same spot
[08:42] Diana Coman: good point on the eulora mention - I took his to mean more specifically eulora 2 and the entry link for it but anyways, the more the better
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard wher are you?
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[16:24] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:55] Vivian Sporepress: category slug corrected.
[18:56] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard the typist training aid
[18:58] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp said she's talked about e2 in LinkedIn too; though that's another game-world where (ironically enough) you can't link things!
[19:36] Diana Coman: oh hey, so then it turns out I just wasn't aware of the mentions until now. Iirc linkedin has been quite its own game-world for a while indeed, though I didn't know it removed links entirely by now, I guess this is their version of progress.
[19:36] Diana Coman: it's probably linked-in not out, lolz
[20:46] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 8.4k shells more than what you're offering.
Day changed to 2026-03-06
[15:25] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 -- thanks, I fixed it and noted the fix in the comments.
[15:25] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[15:26] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4797 -- cool, not plannnig to negrate anyone yet, but good to know how it works.
[15:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4799 -- yeah, let demand justify the work.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4800 -- makes sense to me.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
[15:28] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4806 -- I forgot about those, sorry.
[15:28] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[15:32] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4810 -- thanks, added as a comment.
[15:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[15:39] Raphael Nethersmell: i've found a patch of enchanted dungbeetle, Diana Coman, is it the same as e1's magical dungbeetle ?
[15:57] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I had my craft table near me, holding some lbn. I noticed it was back in my inventory, but I hadn't picked it up. when I put it back on the ground, it was holding the lbn I had left in it.
[16:00] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, an interesting question there - what even makes something in e2 the same as something from e1, eh? Congrats on finding a whole patch of those anyhow, I haven't seen any so far.
[16:02] Diana Coman: is it possible there was some pickall from the bot that picked that table up? It really sounds like some unintentional pick up, not sure how else it would just move from the ground to your inventory (and otherwise that it held the lbn you had left into it sounds perfectly fine, since indeed, if you pick up a table with something in it, you pick it as it is, with the thing contained remaining in it)
[16:36] Raphael Nethersmell: ah, there was a pickall. I guess from the convo a coupla weeks ago about putting loaded craft tables into storage I assumed loaded craft tables coupldn't be put into inventory either.
Day changed to 2026-03-09
[09:04] Diana Coman: in empirical findings, apparently the smelly murky somethings are at least quite reliably obtainable - got 2 more over 24 hours of bot-zigging
[13:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I'm finding basics like sb are requiring twice the lbn to zig compared to bb, wwb, etc.
[13:23] Diana Coman: heh, noticed though since when?
[13:34] Raphael Nethersmell: since I've been leveling up the past week or so.
[13:55] Diana Coman: yeah, but leveling up specifically one skill
[13:58] Raphael Nethersmell: well, I've been leveling them all up. tinkering takes longer though because it requires inputs that are outputs from ziggurating.
[14:01] Diana Coman: at least so far I never saw any impact on enum ingredients from leveling up in tinkering
[14:04] Diana Coman: funny how it's not necessarily directly obvious or clear what the exact cause is, even from a relatively small set of reasonable candidates
[14:09] Diana Coman: on the tinkering requiring ziggurating outputs - it would surely help there if there were more people to work/be interested in different parts and trade the outputs, indeed.
[14:11] Diana Coman: not quite sure though how to get more people with such interest or how to convert from the apparently widely spread interest of "oh, just wanna find shiny new things around, as quickly and easily as possible"
[14:19] Diana Coman: or hm, maybe I should consider turning this around and have the generator spew any number of different items that are all worth ~0 but can be used to play this sort of magpie game, maybe even keep collectors busy if it gets to that, who knows
[15:29] Vivian Sporepress: fwiw, I don't notice any difference in ingredient requirements for ziggurating by resource type, on tinies and smalls
[15:30] Vivian Sporepress: indeed they generally increase as one levels up, though not in a straight line
[15:40] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: did you find your way home yet, or find anything interesting out in the farther fields?
[16:15] Diana Coman: straight lines don't seem to be all that common in euloran experience, do they
[16:17] Vivian Sporepress: about the only thing that can be said for sure
[16:25] Diana Coman: possible magpie minigame, since apparently it's enough to glance that way for there to be something at least worh mentioning in the log as such: any number of items named based on p prefixes, 1 base, s suffixes, all picked at random from large enough word pools, with different designs gui-wise from the trusty generator and allowing then combinations of 2 (or possibly more) such items based on corresponding prefixes/suffixes/bases with results...dunno, going poof with various visual effects? But definitely with magpie achievement/badges in the Notices and Announcements.
[16:27] Diana Coman: (very tempting to add to it then some decay to one character's vitals if not straight their deeper characteristics, lolz)
[16:39] Diana Coman: definitely easy to come up with ideas, funnily enough it wouldn't even be that difficult now to actually implement the above, only I'm not sure I find some actual reason to do it, or at least not yet
[16:40] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: it seems we don't have many conversions from talk to even stepping in and looking around, to the point where mini-games or lack thereof would even come up as an issue
[16:50] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, perhaps the motivation for trying something out has switched by now almost entirely into the fomo/crowd-direction side, given otherwise the overwhelm with at least apparent choice. Otherwise, as stated, it's a bit tongue in cheek really, as truly easy and easily accessible + visible activity with exactly as little actual impact as possible aka safest, too.
[16:54] Diana Coman: perhaps to play at ...playing, even, so that it's less intimidating
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: heh
[16:55] Vivian Sporepress: can there be an AI agent to play for the player?
[16:55] Diana Coman: if they can plug it in, how or why would the game care, really?
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: I don't imagine it would
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: got a statistics question, coming not from eulora but from data I've gathered on computer clock speeds ("system" and "real time" clocks, which on the standard PC derive from two independent oscillators, measured against an NTP reference hourly for 8 days). I've calculated drift rate as the derivative of the difference between clocks, but this is quite susceptible to the noise in the individual measurements. What I actually want to quantify is the long-term stability of the clocks - something like "expected variance in long-term drift after a linear compensation for the measured average". Does that sound like the right track? alternatively there's the machine learning approach, do a linear regression on a "training" subset then measure its fit to the withheld "validation" subset
[19:44] Vivian Sporepress: both clock sources seem to perform rather poorly in general and I'm considering building something from higher quality components, but the same approach would apply to validating this new source.
[19:55] Vivian Sporepress: I guess the simplest approach is to squash the noise by taking daily averages then look at standard deviation of those.
Day changed to 2026-03-10
[09:05] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the usual trouble with statistics is figuring out a close-enough set of assumptions about the underlying processes that result in the data as observed. So in this case, first of all, are the errors from these oscillators-based computer clocks (whichever way you define them) known to be normally distributed? If each interval added/subtracted a normally distributed error, it would rather follow that you'd have quite a reliable way to even keep it reasonably on track over a large enough interval at least and I'm not really sure that's the case.
[09:10] Diana Coman: otherwise taking daily averages would be indeed the simplest approach to reduce the noise of individual measurements, certainly. But it might be something other than the standard deviation of those that is more useful afterwards.
[09:25] Diana Coman: long-term stability of a clock sounds to me more to do with whether the errors it introduces in the shorter-term either compensate overall in the longer term or at least reach some finite bound and remain there after a certain point. Either of these (or any other specific model) would come from those oscillators and how they are used, though I don't know enough on that to know what model fits.
[09:28] Diana Coman: from what I recall on any system where there was no explicit sync with some reference clock, the drift only ever seemed to increase, hence my reservation as to how normally distributed the errors truly are. Of course it might just be that I never let it be for truly long enough so that there is some visible compensation too but not so sure that's really the case.
[21:25] Nestor Nethercross: Rainer Tracksnarl where are you?
[21:25] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -20.22 97.33 34.79 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:34] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 2.4k shells more than what you're offering.
[21:53] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 494 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:58] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 65 shells more than what you're offering.
[22:10] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[22:10] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -24.20 99.86 -16.51 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
Day changed to 2026-03-11
[03:30] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: makes sense about needing to model the underlying processes accurately enough. To clarify a bit how I'm seeing it, there's the error introduced by the measurement process (even measurements taken in quick succession will vary) and then there's the drift rate of the clock, its sharpness or flatness as it were, over a given interval, which also fluctuates, mainly due to temperature dependence, says the theory. Neither seems likely to be normally distributed; possibly the accumulated drift over time more so, something like a random walk.
[06:03] Vivian Sporepress: for ntp, the variability in measurements presumably comes from variable network conditions; for the rtc, I'm supposedly listening for its update interrupt to measure the precise system time, but it's a multitasking non-realtime system so who knows what might delay it between that interrupt and waking up the userspace program which reads the time.
[09:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, hm, I suppose there is the added question of whether you are trying to evaluate the rtc clock itself as a separate entity as much as possible or its use in context (which comes at all times with the same added errors as any measurement). Either way, if what you are trying to measure is not normally distributed, then there is the question of what exactly does a standard deviation tell you reliably, if anything and more to the point what might be perhaps more useful instead.
[09:18] Diana Coman: don't rtc implementations or at least designs actually come with any sort of discussions of their rationale and/or theoretical models at least? I'd expect there is somewhere something of this sort and there should be at least some mention in there of both expected process errors and their estimated impact in some form or another.
[09:26] Diana Coman: failing the above or in any case, making faster use perhaps of already collected data, in principle at least, for starters you can always simply plot whatever relevant data you have and get at least some idea as to what sort of distribution it might fit, if any, taking it afterwards from there.
[09:31] Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[09:43] Diana Coman: I guess the only way to avoid anyhow the likely in-chat spam of price finding as it currently happens, the only real solution would have to mean sending over the price per unit for items put in give/receive in an exchange and then having the client be aware of these and actually use them to calculate and show to the player the relevant amounts. With the usual headache that very low q, low value items can easily end up as 0 per unit and going into decimals can then backfire with overflows on high q, high value items. Which leaves only some powers of 10 approach, I suppose, sending the value over as a tuple, pushing for as many decimals as needed to get at least one non-zero and otherwise limiting decimals on higher values e.g. 0.0234 is (234, 4), 1.51 is (151, 2), 8341 is (8341, 0)
[17:24] Vivian Sporepress: I looked into the MC146818 which was reportedly the original RTC from the 1984 IBM PC/AT, with the functionality later moved around but with some attempt at compatibility. That one's a purely digital chip, it discusses registers and bus interfacing and timings but not clock oscillators as it's driven by an external one. So I'd have to look closer at the crystal component itself. On the other question, I'm not sure how the clock would be separable from its use in context so I think I'm looking at the latter.
[17:33] Vivian Sporepress: on the merchant price reporting, the decimal float approach sounds OK (though I'd have guessed the opposite sign, .0234 = 234x10^-4 = (234,-4) or maybe 2.34x10^-2 = (234,-2)) but would it have to be per unit, if you're already attaching it to specific stacks in give/receive? I can see that being the most helpful, but would just giving the rounded total in shells for the cart also work?
[18:06] Felicia Solecrimp: im here on ppp
[18:08] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: shiny R plots at http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-plot.png , http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-hist.png
[18:10] Vivian Sporepress: (to put the units in perspective, 10ppm of drift means about a second per day.)
[19:07] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, giving the rounded total in shells or anything else has the trouble that you can't really tell in fact on *what* exactly it is and it can easily end up outdated/not quite matching what you see, with the client having no real way of warning, this is really why I was going for a per unit per stack since then it doesn't actually change once obtained hence it's always valid at least exactly as seen. Then again, giving a single total (one for the Give, one for the Receive) would have the advantage of fewer values to ask for and otherwise dumber clientside working just as well. With the added downside that the server needs then to fully calculate such totals each time something changes. On the decimal float, the values were given as they would be sent (and since the sign is indeed always minus, there is no point in sending it).
[19:20] Diana Coman: I suppose the downside would be that the total might end up slightly different than the client expects at least in some cases, due to floating point and rounding/truncating/generally how the npc handles exactly the total
[19:27] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, looking at those charts, it doesn't really look much like a normal or at least not like a very neat one, lolz. Kind of wondering just how different would it even look if taken on another week, at that. I suppose one can at least say that failing anything else better, at least it's not entirely far away from a normal so perhaps the mean and std deviation still say something better than nothing at all. I wonder now how would the actual plain differences rtc-sys look like if one were to ideally have it resync at each reading (or failing that, at least calculate it that way, I suppose, though ofc that introduces further potential unknowns in there)
[19:27] Diana Coman: assuming equally distanced readings, ofc
[19:31] Diana Coman: though I have to say that I expect it will still look more or less like nothing in particular, hm
[19:32] Vivian Sporepress: what would resyncing accomplish? wouldn't it just reset the plain difference equal to the present derivative?
[19:33] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, congrats on getting back to PPP. Does it make sense now how you travel betwen sectors and is that map thing of any use to you?
[19:34] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, it's not clear whether the errors accumulate or not, is it?
[19:35] Diana Coman: i.e. does a reading after the reset/resync differ vs one after whatever amount of running?
[19:36] Felicia Solecrimp: so yes the map makes sense to me but it was showing that the funny hammock of glum was to the other side some how i got help from vivian i ve learn that there are so many places i havent visit yet
[19:36] Vivian Sporepress: yes, after resetting rtc = sys, then the rtc-sys difference reads close to zero; drift accumulates thereafter.
[19:36] Diana Coman: the land is infinite so there are literally an infinite number of places one hasn't visited yet, heh
[19:38] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, is that resetting purely software? the point is: if I look at the error within one hour taken at random somewhere within whatever interval of running, is it similar to the error likely within the first hour after a reset?
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: what I observed on Felicia Solecrimp's map was the same as I'd noted before - it initially shows current sector (funny hammock of glum, for her) at center, but on moving, it turns out the map hadn't figured out how it related and it was actually on PPP.
[19:40] Diana Coman: it fails to update when one reopens it?
[19:42] Vivian Sporepress: that doesn't sound quite like it. more like: 1) open map, see FHG at center and moony precipice of longing to the east (which I know to be incorrect, they're not adjacent). 2) click next east - now moony precipice is at center and PPP is west. 3) click next west, returning to starting offset: now PPP is at center, moony precipice to the east and eulora incognita to the west, where we actually are.
[19:43] Diana Coman: obviously after resetting rtc = sys, that's the definition of resetting, yes. Then sys(t+1) - rtc(t) - rtc(t+1) would be the newly added error, if I follow what is going on there.
[19:44] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, oh, so it actually *recorded* the stuff wrong for her client? It would need clearing up in that txt file, it can't really know when it got something wrong...
[19:46] Diana Coman: so dubious that fhg with mpl to its east, ugh
[19:46] Vivian Sporepress: just checked: sect_offset_kw has only PPP and MPL, in correct places; a possible oddity is sect_name_kw lists both eulora incognita and mpl at 1,0
[19:47] Vivian Sporepress: it seems more like a gui view problem than a knowledge one
[19:48] Diana Coman: did she end up in whatever further away sector she was in via some unintended bot-jump ?
[19:48] Vivian Sporepress: she was only in fhg.
[19:49] Diana Coman: not really: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4738
[19:49] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-01 (Eulora 2) Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[19:49] Vivian Sporepress: like, the map initially tries really hard to show current sector at center, even though it doesn't know current sector's offset and so initializes offset to 0,0. Ah - I meant just now; not sure of the whole history so yeah perhaps that's how it ended up not knowing at all.
[19:51] Diana Coman: and most likely what happened is that the bot got her quickly 2 sectors past and that was too fast for the map to figure out correctly fully the new sectors so myeah, it got partially messed up. And yes, the map tries really hard exactly that, to show current sector at center. It should be fine to delete that eulora incognita for the sector which is actually known anyhow
[19:54] Diana Coman: tbh I suspect I'll actually have to reduce the allowed speed for one, possibly have the client handle better the edge of sectors since it knows them in fact as such and thus perhaps reduce the chances of too-quick jumps too since they aren't really helpful it turns out. Or at least not in terms of figuring things out, lolz
[19:57] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: not following the sys(t+1) - rtc(t) - rtc(t+1), that seems to be doubly subtracting the raw time values (epoch-relative or however they're represented). but I would say the reset is purely software; it changes the raw time values associated with clock ticks but doesn't affect the rate of ticking.
[19:58] Vivian Sporepress: you *could* have it update each time the interpretation in seconds per tick but that would seem to complicate matters.
[20:01] Vivian Sporepress: I don't know of a mechanism whereby the drift *rate* would accumulate, like it wanders more and more sharp over time, except on the multiple years scale because there are aging effects.
[20:04] Vivian Sporepress: but if it does, it would show up on those plots as an expansion of the range and shifting of the mean over time
[20:04] Diana Coman: right, that difference is not right as stated, it would more likely be ticks by sys vs ticks by rtc so possibly (sys(t+1) - sys(t)) - (rtc(t+1)-rtc(t)). But anyway, if the resync doesn't affect the rate of ticking than might as well keep to the derivative only, indeed. Only it leaves us back to ...looking at another week to see how/if it differs, not much else I can currently see otherwise
[20:06] Diana Coman: and yes, exactly that, shifting about at the very least. As to expansion of range dunno, it's already quite spread as it is and the mean doesn't seem likely too close to the median so dunno what it says exactly.
[20:08] Vivian Sporepress: Median :-33.62, Mean :-33.76
[20:08] Diana Coman: I suppose you can assume it is close enough to a normal, calculate its parameters as observed and then do perhaps a few tests over a couple more weeks
[20:08] Diana Coman: huh? then why does that histogram look like way more to the left of -33?
[20:11] Vivian Sporepress: dunno, maybe because of that one big bar just to the right of it?
[20:15] Diana Coman: there are some matching exactly on either side and then quite a few higher on the left but given the numbers, it would look like that one single shot balances the rest, so much for the visuals, eh. Anyways, perhaps then further argument to still considering it a normal, at least until/unless next month fully shows it's not.
[20:17] Vivian Sporepress: it makes sense to me at least that it's steeper on the right: if the measurement error is mostly from scheduling delays then there's a sharp lower bound on the delay and no upper bound
[20:19] Vivian Sporepress: then the better aggregation to reduce that error is max(rtc-sys) for the interval rather than mean
[20:24] Diana Coman: steeper on the right due to scheduling delays having no upper bound and sharp lower bound makes sense. Not quite following though why max(rtc-sys) since it can be just a one freak-out, no
[20:24] Diana Coman: ?
[20:30] Vivian Sporepress: upper quartile then, perhaps? the idea is that the best measurements are those where the delay was least
[20:34] Diana Coman: generally statistics doesn't aim for best measurements since it can't do much reasoning of that sort, it aims at best for more representative measurements.
[20:46] Vivian Sporepress: a similar question comes up with NTP since implementations try to somehow aggregate multiple samples, and likewise, there's a minimum round trip delay from the network but no maximum
[20:47] Vivian Sporepress: it seems to me that the samples with lowest delay are much more valuable than those with highest
[20:50] Vivian Sporepress: more accurate, that is; though some other phenomenon could perhaps throw off all bets entirely
[21:07] Diana Coman: you know, I start wondering if it's not more the errors that show in there than the actual clock-drift
[21:07] Diana Coman: I mean measurement errors
[21:10] Diana Coman: and therefore whether it's really clock stability/performance that matters most in practice currently or really its reading if affected by similarly signal-drowning errors
[22:01] Vivian Sporepress: I think the measurement errors drown out the signal in this data, hence my initial question, but those errors don't affect the accumulated drift over time, which is what I'm looking to minimize.
[22:14] Vivian Sporepress: the question seems to be, given the data I already have or whatever larger set might be gathered, based on what we know of how the clock behaved in this interval, what is the uncertainty in what it will do next? given that it's a relatively well controlled physical process, not some arbitrarily spiteful demon.
[22:17] Vivian Sporepress: and following, is it more worth my while to try to better compensate for it in software, or to go for better controlled hardware?
[22:27] Vivian Sporepress: (I'm currently rather biased toward the latter - garbage in, garbage out and it seems there's a variety of existing solutions on the hardware side, even if none seem to fit me exactly)
Day changed to 2026-03-12
[08:18] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, what I don't quite follow is what can be obtained that useful from a reduction perhaps in accumulated drift when that seems to be anyhow way less of a problem than the actual reading of the time at any point. Otherwise on purely theoretical grounds, since the drift is a characteristic of the hardware the most direct means to improve it would be to improve the hardware, of course, with the only reservation perhaps as to how much improvement can be further obtained, at what cost and, perhaps even more importantly unless you really are interested in advancing the theory in the field first of all, with what actual impact from a practical point of view.
[08:23] Diana Coman: in other words: if you want a better clock, then it needs better hardware; if you want better time-reporting locally, it might well be that the hardware is already way more optimized than the software so there are likely higher gains (possibly lower costs, too) in improving the software side of it.
[18:05] Vivian Sporepress: I don't think the local reading of time is a problem. it's precise as of when it's made; measuring delay between readings of two different clocks varies more since you can't read both simultaneously, but still that's well under a second; whereas the accumulated divergence adds up to seconds then minutes or more.
[18:14] Vivian Sporepress: and thus the perceived need to add dependency on regular updates from an external source.
[18:19] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/06/Notices-and-Announcements-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#204 - some curious NPC numbers
[18:19] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-12 (Notices and Announcements) Ulrich Logfetch: ** Euloran economic activity during one month to day 00 of month 11, year 6 (era 1): PCs' held value in items increased by 18`353 and their cash decreased by 12`030; NPCs' held value in items decreased by 321`838`305 and their cash increased by 321`857`585; environment value decreased by 727`814. All amounts are shown in Euloran Shell (10`000 Shells to 1 Copper). **
[18:21] Vivian Sporepress: perhaps because of Rainer retiring unpopular items from the storefront ?
[18:21] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-11 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[19:43] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, yeah, that's mostly Rainer Tracksnarl's recycling of unwanted items, indeed. I guess he got his wealth more directly exposed though it was publicly visible previously too, only not so neatly summed up in a single number.
[19:47] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, if the observed errors currently drowning the signal are due to measuring delay between readings of rtc and ntp, it would seem that the most straightforward way to make the signal clearer is in fact to take them less often, no? E.g. collect data on observed divergence over one month rather than hourly, since any additional delay due to the measurement error is then way smaller than the actual divergence, isn't it? Obviously, it pushes the whole thing for way more time to just get the data itself but dunno if there is any rush or what that would be.
[23:23] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman, yes, sampling on a longer interval when calculating slope would be equivalent to reducing noise by averaging slopes from shorter (equally spaced) intervals, if there's really no advantage to be found in higher resolution data.
[23:24] Vivian Sporepress: and I guess there isn't if that "higher resolution" is essentially just rng otuput.
[23:25] Vivian Sporepress: hey, a thermal trng built into every pc!
[23:27] Vivian Sporepress: that could actually be one of the more credible inputs to the urandom pool, if it were used - enable RTC interrupts, read the nanosecond-level CPU timestamp and mix it in.
Day changed to 2026-03-13
[02:01] Vivian Sporepress: pushing it the other way, for the rtc at least I can measure up to once per second so why not zoom in on it: http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-drift-detail-1s.png - these are the plain differences, so the overall downtrend should match the -33ppm mean drift rate from before, but a cyclic, sawtooth effect dominates the "measurement error" picture, if indeed that's what it is, on the milliseconds level
[02:31] Vivian Sporepress: but in more on-topic topics, finally got a tiny Abandoned Eggs built, from further digging near a prior sighting in PPP; but I seem to have lost my touch on ziggurating lately, i.e. getting much less value out for even the same inputs as used before. perhaps it's a side effect of increasing skill... or decreasing skill relative to others?
[02:33] Vivian Sporepress: I also found as Raphael Nethersmell noted earlier that using q1 lbn did better than q11, at least once, though applying that to this AE came out to 1q1 - more like abandoned eggshells.
[08:44] Diana Coman: that better-doing sounds like the lower bound/minimal yield that is currently in place to help newcomers mostly, though I wouldn't rely on it alone for the longterm
[08:46] Diana Coman: that sawtooth effect in the zoomed in data is quite striking indeed, huh
Day changed to 2026-03-15
[01:58] Vivian Sporepress: after that earlier ziggurating trouble, I return home with full pockets... any bids for 50 sm q28?
[01:59] Vivian Sporepress: or 100 bb q12
[10:31] Diana Coman: both of these tend to appear in the mid-advanced rather than the starter crafting/zig recipes and by the time one gets to those, it seems the quantities needed are quite higher. Even now, my char uses at least 35 cdg per cft click and tbh I'm not sure I'd try directly for a craft-table (bb goes into that at least) yet.
[10:32] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[10:32] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -23.81 99.86 -16.62 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[10:35] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 193 shells more than what you're offering.
[15:46] Raphael Nethersmell: I found my first wb patch. On ziggurating it, 11 lbn q11 -> 1 wm q7, [12-15] lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 but 11 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q91. less is more.
[20:25] Vivian Sporepress: that's a nice quality for sure. for me those finer results still seem more a matter of luck / many tries than a particular formula
[20:36] Raphael Nethersmell: the difference may also be an expression of our char's distinct genetics.
[20:43] Vivian Sporepress: my wooly mushrooms so far come out either q7 or q10; clearly the resource type matters too.
[20:51] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I guess the beans & moss will find use eventually. Have you gotten into any more advanced crafting? still mostly cft?
[21:11] Vivian Sporepress: at least with an SM supply we can make plenty of disgusting goop which goes into several tools.
[21:14] Raphael Nethersmell: did you use q11 lbn for wm ?
[21:16] Vivian Sporepress: I've tried q1, 11, and 25.
[21:16] Raphael Nethersmell: i was using up my low q sm recently to train crafting. only got xk and more diagrams out of it, but some rather high q diagrams at least.
[21:33] Raphael Nethersmell: does anyone have improbable oil designs to sell ? appears the one Rainer Tracksnarl had got garbage collected in the last sweep. though there are still some slag receipes that require io.
[23:22] Vivian Sporepress: not I, and I'm seeing the same (it was the Improbable Oil Schenectady), unfortunate as that's what the WM was missing for... also no more leaky treebark flask designs, nor CFTR of the original q100.
[23:36] Raphael Nethersmell: I have 1 ltfd, which will likely break into more when I try to craft it. I have several cftr > q100, might have some q100 in storage.
Day changed to 2026-03-16
[02:33] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 7.0k shells more than what you're offering.
[03:18] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4968 -- do you reckon your crafting skill isn't high enough yet to yield one ?
[03:18] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: both of these tend to appear in the mid-advanced rather than the starter crafting/zig recipes and by the time one gets to those, it seems the quantities needed are quite higher. Even now, my char uses at least 35 cdg per cft click and tbh I'm not sure I'd try directly for a craft-table (bb goes into that at least) yet.
[05:17] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4972 -- I leveled up and now my min lbn is 12. 12 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 still, but 11 lbn q8 + 1 lbn q1 -> 1 wm q97 , which I've reproduced 3 times now w/o variation. I'ma farm for more lbn q1 before I do any more clickin' on'em because the juice just ain't worth the squeeze to use the higher q lbn for nao.
[05:17] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: I found my first wb patch. On ziggurating it, 11 lbn q11 -> 1 wm q7, [12-15] lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 but 11 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q91. less is more.
[08:23] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, interesting data on those wm, it sounds like a sweet spot you found there (possibly an inflection point/where things change quite drastically, as it were).
[08:23] Diana Coman: if anyone wants cftr recipes, I have plenty of those, at various qualities, too, since I get some each time I craft
[08:25] Diana Coman: tbh from my crafting, I rather prefer the lower q recipes, because then I get at least one of the output items too, not just other recipes at most clicks. So if anyone has q < 10 recipes, I'm interested in them
[08:27] Diana Coman: my char seems to have currently enough tinkering skill to actually raise the quality in the process i.e. I get higher quality than I put in but the downside to this is that I can't really get the lower quality inputs by myself - or at least not the inputs that still come from crafting.
[08:30] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4976 - thing is, I still don't have a reliable way to make *enough* cft to build at least all my smalls and I'm not even using anything more advanced than barehanded explore, at that so I haven't really tried all that much to craft more advanced stuff. As you say though, dg would likely be next as it goes then into tools but that's actually worth more than cft so dunno if I'll even get much of it at all, most likely I'll get a tone of recipes only
[08:30] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I guess the beans & moss will find use eventually. Have you gotten into any more advanced crafting? still mostly cft?
[08:31] Diana Coman: I'll check for what bps I have, next time I'm at my storage
[08:32] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4985 - there is double trouble with crafting a table (or tools for that matter) since one really wants higher quality output or there is little use that I'm aware of currently for it. So one has to get an item rather than only more recipes, true enough but that item better be at least reasonable quality too or it's directly garbage...
[08:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-16 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4968 -- do you reckon your crafting skill isn't high enough yet to yield one ?
[16:14] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: my crafting outputs often come out lower q than the input recipes so perhaps I can help on that recipe reduction
[16:24] Diana Coman: currently the sweet spot for cft at least seems to be with recipe at about 5-6q (with which the output ends up at around 50q anyhow)
[16:24] Diana Coman: so if you have ctfr around there, I'll buy them
[16:25] Diana Coman: otoh with grass it's more the other way around since I have a rather large pile of q1 grass and that is too low by itself so I'd rather mix it up
[16:34] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I've got 75 cftr q4 + 122 q5 available, which I'd trade for the equivalent value of higher q recipes since I can still break those down
[16:35] Vivian Sporepress: could perhaps mix the q4s up to 5-6, too
[16:35] Diana Coman: works as they are, no trouble
[16:35] Diana Coman: let me go to storage and have a look then
[16:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, I have currently 159 cftr q46 and 397 cftr q47. If you'd rather have them higher q, it's easy enough for me to get them really, so let me know what would work best for you.
[16:41] Diana Coman: sadly no IO recipes in storage, apparently picking correctly what might be needed if Rainer Tracksnarl was not around to provide it is not that easy at all
[16:43] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, fwiw I'm fine to sell/buy at 110% for usual resources and bps, even when there isn't otherwise an exact match for direct barter exchange, since this hopefully makes it better for both buyer and seller compared to relying on the NPC
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: the q46-47 sound fine as I haven't been able to make use of excess value there so far.
[16:48] Diana Coman: so let's see, 18*(75*0.04+122*0.05) = 163.8, 18*20*0.46=165.6 would work for me
[16:49] Diana Coman: or would you rather have just the coppers?
[16:49] Diana Coman: well, the shells most likely, lolz
[16:49] Vivian Sporepress: the barter works. traffic might be a little higher at my tree right now so meet at yours?
[16:50] Diana Coman: sure, it's at 0, -32
[16:50] Diana Coman: quite a bunch of claims here too, I think one of the NPCs was digging earlier
[16:52] Diana Coman: actually our trees are quite near to one another
[16:53] Vivian Sporepress: yeah, it's about the same, only Nestor Nethercross himself went out of view when I moved over.
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: well Wolfgang Middlesit too which might make a difference due to his holdings.
[16:54] Diana Coman: yeah, he needs a clean out as well, I noticed
[16:54] Diana Coman: I guess they really need to get good at doing that more regularly
[16:56] Diana Coman: thanks
[16:56] Vivian Sporepress: my pleasure
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: could the merchants just mix down some of their excessively varying quality stacks?
[16:58] Diana Coman: they could but it's not worth it really, since it's not clear what is a wanted quality, if any, so to my eye it makes more sense if they keep it as it comes in for a while and then simply ditch it entirely if nobody buys it
[16:58] Vivian Sporepress: so far indeed it seems one's own shelf proves more reliable than an NPC merchant even of Rainer Tracksnarl's weight; dunno if all these caverns might be subject to cave-ins or floods though...
[16:58] Diana Coman: if people want some quality to be made out of these, they can buy and make, while if they don't want it anyway, why would the npc still keep it?
[16:59] Diana Coman: well, the merchant NPCs are looking to trade not to serve as storage so it's certainly true that they would rather not hang on to stock indefinitely
[17:00] Diana Coman: then again, as you say, it's very possible that in time all items decay or vanish perhaps, even if the process is maybe extremely slow in storage
[17:01] Vivian Sporepress: when a merchant "ditches" an item does it mean they essentially change it to unseen cash?
[17:01] Vivian Sporepress: that's how it looked from the economic report
[17:02] Diana Coman: this time they recycled it to cash, yes, though it's not necessarily fixed, it might make more sense at some point to recycle it more literally, hence returning to the environment where it was extracted from in the first place
[17:03] Vivian Sporepress: generous of them
[17:04] Diana Coman: it's more a matter of overall balance, since I'm not sure I want to fix now unwanted items as an in-game monetary inflationary mechanism as such.
Day changed to 2026-03-17
[12:43] Diana Coman: gotta love the all-seeing bot - one can literally just move about various sectors and peak to see what others found, lolz
[12:46] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, mind making for me one of those tiny wm bundles you say work so well for you? I guess it would be about q10 bundle. I can give you either 110% qabv for it or the corresponding in q1 lbn if you prefer that
[12:47] Diana Coman: apparently my zig skill is too high to be able to make a q10 tiny bundle by myself even with q1 lbn
[15:13] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, sure, I have 2 wm bundles q10
[15:14] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, we have an infinite map and you show up right next to me in the 2nd ring, small world afterall !
[15:14] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, your leaving some lbn behind in your wake.
[15:49] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I also have 2 q2, 3 q11, 2 q13 and 1 q18 wm bundles if you're interested.
[16:48] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, well, we all leave from + return to the centre so yeah, likely to still meet
[16:48] Diana Coman: could try those bundles too, sure
[16:49] Diana Coman: if we manage to meet time-wise
[16:50] Diana Coman: fwiw that wm is quite a small patch, not that I saw yet a medium-high resource with truly a large patch
[16:52] Diana Coman: and since I kind of already mapped largely the 1st ring around PPP, I moved on to the 2nd ring indeed
[16:53] Diana Coman: not sure about any leftover lbn as the bot has pickall in there and atm at least I don't see any lbn, maybe there was some that the bot failed to see
[17:36] Raphael Nethersmell: holy pops, after bot ziggin' these wm I see I'm sittin' on a stack of 17 mysterious rock q1 !!!11!!eleventy!!
[17:36] Raphael Nethersmell: does 45 mins from now work for you timewise ?
[17:37] Raphael Nethersmell: or let me know a window that is convenient and i
[17:37] Raphael Nethersmell: 'll adapt.
[18:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, now? Otherwise within next 45 minutes or 8pm utc if that works better
[18:16] Diana Coman: so mysterious rocks from wm, is it? Congratulations!
[18:27] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana, do you know qabv of the buundles ? I was about to return to town to get a quote from Rainer Tracksnarl and come right back.
[18:29] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, it would generally be equal to one obtained item, logically speaking, no/
[18:29] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm making that run right quick and will brb.
[18:30] Diana Coman: for zig I guess it's trickier, but there I took the original/initial non-changing input, hence for a tiny it would be the base value of 1 lbn, hence 11
[18:30] Diana Coman: ok, ping me when you are back to the devil's own bayou
[18:33] Diana Coman: ftr, bv (base value) would be the value of an item at bq (base quality, which is for many - though not all - items exactly 100). Then qabv (quality adjusted base value) would be the NPC/game-set value of an item at whatever quality it happens to be.
[19:04] Diana Coman: well, I guess it will be at 8pm utc then as I have to go now
[19:08] Raphael Nethersmell: ok, will be there then.
[19:08] Raphael Nethersmell: Rainer Tracksnarl quotes me 1 shell for the q10 bundle, oy vey.
[20:07] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, are you around now? At 11 likely bv for tiny bundly, it makes 1 shell at q10, indeed.
[20:38] Raphael Nethersmell: I am around.
[20:40] Raphael Nethersmell: my q10s got bot zig'd, ugh. sorry. I have 4 q9, 3 q11, 2 q13, 2 q18
[20:42] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, where are you?
[20:52] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I'm at 210 230
[20:52] Diana Coman: it's ok
[20:54] Raphael Nethersmell: omw
[20:57] Diana Coman: (4*0.09+3*0.11+2*0.13+2*0.18)*11 =14.41 so *1.1 = 15.85 aka 16 shells or did you prefer the lbn?
[20:58] Raphael Nethersmell: lbn please
[20:59] Diana Coman: meh, I calculated that on 15 instead of 16, there should be some 10 lbn more
[21:00] Raphael Nethersmell: wanna drop on ground ?
[21:00] Diana Coman: it will take ages for it to disown
[21:00] Diana Coman: 1sec, this exchange should go through and then will just do another one
[21:03] Diana Coman: there we go, thanks!
[21:04] Diana Coman: now to see what wm I get with these vs my own bundles
[21:04] Raphael Nethersmell: enjoy !
[21:05] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, I'd be curious. apart from the amr my wm q have gone way down, into the q1 or q7 range. with same skill and inputs. luck of the draw. maybe my guy is bored of it and neds some novelty.
[21:07] Raphael Nethersmell: I noticed zigging isn't moving my sorting xp recently. I've left zigging xp maxxed out, but nevertheless sorting xp pegged at 8%
[21:07] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I expect it's just not on wm
[21:08] Diana Coman: and actually 11 MR should be quite a bit of value, even q1
[21:09] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, I know the MR command a pretty penny.
[21:11] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm thinking for my excess skills to offer them to n00bs on credit based on vamp contract. take skill today, pay me back over time.
[21:14] Diana Coman: apprentice-style, that would make sense entirely, at least with someone interested enough to stick with it
[21:14] Diana Coman: in principle a noob is exactly well paired with someone more advanced, they can provide lower q bundles and/or inputs, you can provide them skill items and/or higher q inputs to have them advance faster
[21:14] Diana Coman: but well, if they figure it out first, for sure
[21:16] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, i have some people in mind, but not sure what's taking them so long to pop in.
[21:16] Diana Coman: so far on the wm experiment, 3 tinies built with bp q4 + bundle q9 resulted reliably in 2wm q1 each time, lolz
[21:17] Diana Coman: then again, wm is 780 iirc, so 2*0.01*780 is still some 15 at least
[21:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I was thinking last night it'd be cool to have something like a cli.sh that would send commands to eucore from the host cli bypassing the gui. reports various output to standard output, e.g. pos
[21:19] Raphael Nethersmell: the gui os good and I like, but sometimes feel like it gets in the way.
[21:19] Diana Coman: that would literally be a cli client, wouldn't it?
[21:21] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 260 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:22] Raphael Nethersmell: in my mind it's a hybrid.
[21:22] Diana Coman: in case those 2 wm q1 seemed too little for a q9 bundle, experience informs now that one gets exactly same for a q18 bundle so might as well go possibly with a q1 bundle if at all achievable, lolz
[21:23] Diana Coman: you mean to run it fully as normal, only in addition to that *also* interface directly from a pos terminal?
[21:25] Raphael Nethersmell: an example of gui getting in way is, my x11 gui is fluxbox. I have e2 gui in one workspace and tmux terminal from where i launch game, view logs, adjust configs in other workspace. I notice when I'm focused on the gui, I tend to get higher rep counts. sometimes this is resolves by jiggling the char. when I'm focused on tailing the bot log, I rarely get rep counts over 4 or 5. it operates more efficiently.
[21:25] Diana Coman: while a 4354q bundle got me 9 wm q7, aka 9*0.07*780, hrm
[21:28] Diana Coman: that's literally just because the gui itself indeed turns off when it's not visible on the screen. And in any case, it is certainly true that the gui tends to always be on a catch up with the text-only, there is no way around this since all the graphical stuff is literally an addition. I guess what you are saying is that one would like the convenience of a text-only client *and* that of a gui-client without having to restart, lolz
[21:28] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, yeah, run gui normally, but have an option to issue console commands from host. I have nfi the implementation difficulty of such a thing, but the desire came up.
[21:28] Diana Coman: which makes sense, certainly
[21:29] Diana Coman: it's more a matter of whether it's really worth it as it were, since what you gain is really just the above, that you don't have to restart the client. Dunno if it's such a hassle to start it really, is it?
[21:29] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, the double convenience, for certain things, I'm always clicking and clucking.
[21:30] Raphael Nethersmell: I find I don't even need to restart the client all the time, sometimes just switching workspaces is enough.
[21:31] Diana Coman: well, it's certainly in the log now and thus considered at least
[21:32] Raphael Nethersmell: well said. lolz.
[21:50] Raphael Nethersmell: did anyone get the bot craft to work successfully ? in my experience it'll craft the first run fine, but fails the takeall on the output before loading the inputs for the next run and basically gets choked up/confused from there.
Day changed to 2026-03-18
[00:47] Raphael Nethersmell: I have a phantom exchange hanging around for a coupla hours that has persisted across a coupla client restarts.
[08:01] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I'll have to check on that phantom exchange thing, if it persists across client restarts it's likely something serverside, thanks for reporting it. The bot craft works for me, though one needs to let it be, indeed. It does not do a takeall on the target but then the next run anyhow clears it out since the outputs of previous run will not work as inputs to the next.
[14:03] Raphael Nethersmell: The phantom exchange window cleared over night. Aok about bot craft, I'll be more patient with it.
Day changed to 2026-03-19
[18:38] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you ?
[18:38] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[18:38] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.86 -17.82 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:48] Felicia Solecrimp: https://luz713.wordpress.com/2026/03/19/spicy-moss-mousaka-item/ made a couple of designs for spicy moss mousaka
[19:25] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, that's worth about 5.5k shells more than what you're offering.
[19:38] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, nice sketches but how can one leave a comment on your blog so it's exactly where it belongs? Kind of rough to say much on them at this stage since the detail and colouring can easily make a big difference but from what I see, I like the curly toppers and uneven layers on the first underlined one (1st page, 2nd row, on the right) though I'd possibly make the layers' less neatly defined I guess and possibly something of that very much moussaka-shape of the one before last (2nd page, last row, left side)
[19:43] Diana Coman: this being said, it's really the completed image that makes the difference - so if you like one idea or direction in particular, just go with that and make it all the way, most likely any fully polished final image will look better than a rough sketch
[19:44] Diana Coman: meanwhile speaking of spicy moss, it turns out the bot got me a SM ord even, mfft
[19:45] Diana Coman: which takes apparently ~all the crazy: 80 LH, 40DM, 26 TLC, 26 WM
[20:47] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, congrats ! interesting its inputs are different than the inputs you mentioned for the cr ord pre public log days (ed, sg, wwb).
[21:33] Vivian Sporepress: looks close to the olden days formula, http://ossasepia.com/Eulora/mining-recipes.html
[22:06] Vivian Sporepress: don't think I've found any ordinaries since buying one of the bundles :/
[22:41] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm still and ordinary (claim) virgin.
Day changed to 2026-03-20
[00:35] Vivian Sporepress: re Felicia Solecrimp's blog comments, we poked a bit around the wp-admin but no "don't be broken" checkbox emerged. Her successful commenters so far seem to be mostly liking-bots plus my mom via some kind of email gateway. I've told her she'll likely have to pay for some actual hosting to move up from the wordpress.com freebie.
[00:36] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman, she had three pages of sketches, it sounded like maybe you missed the first?
[08:26] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, ah, I had seen all three pages of sketches but apparently when scrolling to reference them I miscalculated, so the corrected pages would be 2 and 3 there, indeed. Maybe it helps to just add some numbers to the sketches at the end so people can reference them more directly?
[08:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-19 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, nice sketches but how can one leave a comment on your blog so it's exactly where it belongs? Kind of rough to say much on them at this stage since the detail and colouring can easily make a big difference but from what I see, I like the curly toppers and uneven layers on the first underlined one (1st page, 2nd row, on the right) though I'd possibly make the layers' less neatly defined I guess and possibly something of that very much moussaka-shape of the one before last (2nd page, last row, left side)
[08:28] Diana Coman: if the comments are now broken on a default wordpress.com installation don't they reply to any support/similar query about it? As far as I recall they used to reply eventually, though that was indeed nearly 20 years ago iirc.
[08:29] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, ordinary claims seem to all take different ingredients, indeed. It's only tinies and small that are so conveniently same and easy, lolz.
[08:31] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#5121 - yeah, only quantities are something else but it's true that those values in the e1 cookbook were taken at a time before the skill had any visible impact on a recipe's reading
[08:31] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-19 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: looks close to the olden days formula, http://ossasepia.com/Eulora/mining-recipes.html
[08:32] Diana Coman: maybe buying upfront an ord bundle scares away any such find, lolz
[08:33] Diana Coman: but yeah, when I bought a cdg bundle thinking that anyway I kept exploring at the cdg patch, ofc it turned out that even at the cdg patch I got at most a sr ord, not a cdg one, obviously.
[08:35] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, ordinary claim virgin lolz. There would be then remarkable virgins too, at the very least (and more, only even in e1 I think there were only a couple of instances of the next size up, nobody got anything further than that).
Day changed to 2026-03-21
[01:09] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#5133 -- buy one of each then for balance ?
[01:09] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: but yeah, when I bought a cdg bundle thinking that anyway I kept exploring at the cdg patch, ofc it turned out that even at the cdg patch I got at most a sr ord, not a cdg one, obviously.
[08:59] Diana Coman: buying at least one of everything would be in principle the minimum insurance indeed, if only one had space (and bulk, and weight), let alone money for it all at this stage. Failing that, I did buy at that time one sr and one cdg bundle, ended up anyway coming back later and from another sector no less, for another cdg bundle and so on. Not much full replacement for being able to make one's own bundles but until then, one is dependent on Rainer Tracksnarl's stock, sadly.
[09:01] Diana Coman: at least I got out of it a small pile of sr and then a more decent pile of cdg q1 to mix then up as needed for cft, so I'm not exactly complaining
[16:42] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 343 shells more than what you're offering.
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im kind of lost
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[01:29] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[01:29] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.87 -18.81 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: now im on the aged lane of remorse
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: im so lost
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: how can i get back to ppp D:
[08:04] Raphael Nethersmell: Felicia Solecrimp, you're 2 sectors to the left of ppp. go to x=500 to cross into funky hammock of glum and then x=500 to get back to ppp
[17:52] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: you should also be able to press 'p' to view the map of sectors you discovered so far
Day changed to 2026-03-02
[04:33] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the saturine lane of inevitatibility
[04:34] Felicia Solecrimp: im panicking a little
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: okay im i the funny hammcok of glum
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: somehow
[08:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, different trainers will have their own training skill/ability as it were, so possibly Faith Kidneyguard is less experienced yet hence less effective than Ulrich Logfetch but still, no xk increase at all sounds strange indeed, I recall I certainly did train with her successfully, I'll add it to the list to check further on it serverside, thanks for reporting it.
[08:28] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, the anti-panic route goes through accepting the trouble and then paying attention to how things change as you attempt to do something about it, taking the time to figure out what's going on rather than trying to just get out of it without being none the wiser. You have the map command (with the p shortcut by default as Vivian Sporepress already told you) so you can figure out exactly where you are. If you actually check your coordinates before and after a sector change you'll quickly understand how that part works too and Raphael Nethersmell already told you quite specifically how to go in at least one direction, the rest are similar.
[14:40] Raphael Nethersmell: I've been exclusively training with Faith Kidneyguard since she's been introduced, fwiw.
[15:11] Diana Coman: good to know she is of use and it helps get her better at it, too!
[16:07] Vivian Sporepress: it might have been ziggurating that I trained with her before which is still lower than my gathering level, if it's a matter of her limits.
[16:11] Diana Coman: possibly the gathering is at a point where it takes quite a few explores to advance enough for 1xk % (hence for the advance to be visible), indeed
[16:27] Vivian Sporepress: it is, but wasn't going anywhere with Faith and then back to normal slow advancement with Ulrich.
[16:32] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4538 - over a week later, it seems most of the pile is still there and still inaccessible, most curious. I've noted a couple specific item IDs+coords to see if they're really sticking around or still being dug up or what.
[16:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: the pile of lbn remains unavailable to me.
[16:41] Diana Coman: that's interesting at least, I thought it was made by someone with a bot not running pickall so by the sounds of it, it's still owned quite a lot of time later - maybe the owner is still close enough
[16:45] Vivian Sporepress: could be I just haven't been able to see them because the quantity of lbn saturates knowledge acquisition for longer than I cared to stick around in the requisite spot
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: when an lbn q1 appears on the ground but hasn't been picked up yet, is it even owned by anyone, though?
[16:46] Diana Coman: well, if it's the result of your action then it is owned by you, otherwise how would you even be able to link it in any sort of way to your action, really?
[16:47] Diana Coman: maybe by position at most, I suppose, but in any case, iirc it is owned, yes
[16:48] Diana Coman: if it weren't, it would also lead to potential aggravation via someone snatching your stuff away, which is pretty much what owning is made to negate in the first place
[16:49] Diana Coman: if it just spawns though, then there wouldn't be an owner yet, logically speaking
[16:51] Diana Coman: fwiw if one is literally aiming to harvest lbn q1 by itself, the bot can be made to do it quite successfully if set to explore in a lbn-patch with pickall and just a few checks before moving on (so that it doesn't wait for a work object that never comes)
[17:00] Vivian Sporepress: is there a way to check item ownership (at least for self) through the data hierarchy? all I found so far in the GUI was accessibility. when I did the data reconstruction for my first mapmaking, I was filling in the LBN spots manually since indeed, no way to be sure if this lbn is a result of my own activity or just happened to be there.
[18:06] Diana Coman: ownership is not exposed specifically to the client, no, only in the negative as in something being inaccessible even when within range otherwise because your char doesn't own it. In other words: you can tell when it is *not* yours, but not whose it might be.
[18:07] Diana Coman: perhaps if I get around to add the maker mark and expose that, I might expose the ownership too, though not yet decided either way.
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[21:43] Faith Kidneyguard: Vivian Sporepress, I am currently at 60.36 98.40 8.52 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: moves around a lot, does she.
[23:45] Vivian Sporepress: 44 claims explored and no xk gained from Faith. maybe 1 xp gained from work that happened between training refreshes.
Day changed to 2026-03-03
[00:03] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4554 - looking at a recent crafting dataset, most of it supports this interpretation i.e. qabv of returned recipes is less than qabv per item of the returned items, but there's one that doesn't: 1 cdg q10 + 1 cftr q10 => cft bundle q3 => 1 cft q5 + 16 cftr q5. That seems to come to 14.4 qabv for the recipes vs 9 for the cft
[00:03] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: e.g. I just got now 1 cft q44 and 6 cftr q 44, which is 0.44*180= 79 the cft and 6*0.44*18=47 the 6 cftr, meaning that the full output simply was below 2 cft, looks like 1 cft and...change given as cftr, lolz
[00:07] Vivian Sporepress: also interestingly, I often get higher total value in outputs than in inputs consumed, in qabv terms, sometimes even outweighing the wear on the table
[00:26] Vivian Sporepress: and I'm definitely starting to suspect astrological effects on ziggurating because I'm currently getting way less in both quality and count of nt for the same inputs as recorded previously
[00:28] Vivian Sporepress: even compared to a time where my enums had the same lbn range reading, a bit lower than its peak
[13:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, checking on Faith Kidneyguard revealed that your xk has been increasing while training with her, only indeed by the almost minimum possible amount, which would take indeed a *lot* of time to show up as 1% due to the low input + relatively lower training experience she has + your relatively high rank. In other words: there is enough variance wrt training outcomes, too.
[13:04] Diana Coman: still, for now and given the starting situation otherwise, Faith Kidneyguard did some intensive learning of her own so that she's now closer to Ulrich Logfetch in skill at least. Their respective personal abilities don't change though.
[13:05] Diana Coman: and in time if people keep training with only one of them, the other will fall behind anyhow - though possibly beginners might find a beginner trainer more than enough and otherwise more easily available.
[16:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[16:04] Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[16:52] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[16:56] Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[18:39] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[18:39] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:53] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[18:53] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-01-28 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, is it really that difficult to write one line instead of 3 out of which 2 are just noise? For the record, there is already in place a filtering mechanism based on WoT ratings but I would hope it doesn't become actually needed all that soon.
Day changed to 2026-03-04
[09:06] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4784 - perhaps due to lower skill, perhaps due to insufficient number of attempts or even detail level (aka how small should the step be between consequent explore attempts to have any sort of confidence that one hasn't missed something - or at least how does one even *measure/estimate* such certainty, exactly?). While I could perhaps attempt some rough ranges for different resources based on what I observe as their overall spread throughout the various maps compiled so far, the trouble is that the more valuable ones seem to have way smaller ranges which means in turn that one needs a really small step to be able to say they at least stood a chance of finding them - but then I'm not even sure there is yet the data to estimate the probability that it wasn't missed *anyway*
[09:06] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[09:10] Diana Coman: as the very basic, one would need to keep track of attempts in one place and resulting findings, though probably best at a place where they already know what can be found, to then get some observed probabilities. Further messed up by the unknown impact of skill(s) on such empirical findings but anyway, it would be at least something indeed. Perhaps also something more appealing than all the usual dry book-exercises otherwise as a way to learn and apply statistics and data processing, but what do I know.
[09:14] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - oh hey, that's a first indeed, isn't it. And welcome back to life for dorion-mode, too!
[09:14] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[09:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[09:55] Diana Coman: come to think of this very first mention of e2 outside my own site, I don't really know what stops anyone from simply taking quotes from the notices and/or log and making from them small snippets to post with a link on any other place where they are active
[10:12] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[10:12] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[10:15] Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[10:18] Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
Day changed to 2026-03-05
[05:02] Vivian Sporepress: Nice to hear of Faith's levelup, I can give her another try.
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4782 - my crafting input and outputs are still pretty low value overall and the return of recipes is a drag on effiency, so dunno, will see how it continues.
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4783 - were any of those reproducible though?
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[05:06] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[05:07] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[05:39] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 - same. ambiguous parse tree that first came out as the puzzling version.
[05:39] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[05:55] Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[05:57] Vivian Sporepress: overall I found the article quite readable.
[08:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the findings in PPP were/are reproducible, only not reliably at each explore since most likely they can't really be, as long as there are clearly several resources at the same spot
[08:42] Diana Coman: good point on the eulora mention - I took his to mean more specifically eulora 2 and the entry link for it but anyways, the more the better
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard wher are you?
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[16:24] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:55] Vivian Sporepress: category slug corrected.
[18:56] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard the typist training aid
[18:58] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp said she's talked about e2 in LinkedIn too; though that's another game-world where (ironically enough) you can't link things!
[19:36] Diana Coman: oh hey, so then it turns out I just wasn't aware of the mentions until now. Iirc linkedin has been quite its own game-world for a while indeed, though I didn't know it removed links entirely by now, I guess this is their version of progress.
[19:36] Diana Coman: it's probably linked-in not out, lolz
[20:46] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 8.4k shells more than what you're offering.
Day changed to 2026-03-06
[15:25] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 -- thanks, I fixed it and noted the fix in the comments.
[15:25] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[15:26] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4797 -- cool, not plannnig to negrate anyone yet, but good to know how it works.
[15:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4799 -- yeah, let demand justify the work.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4800 -- makes sense to me.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
[15:28] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4806 -- I forgot about those, sorry.
[15:28] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[15:32] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4810 -- thanks, added as a comment.
[15:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[15:39] Raphael Nethersmell: i've found a patch of enchanted dungbeetle, Diana Coman, is it the same as e1's magical dungbeetle ?
[15:57] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I had my craft table near me, holding some lbn. I noticed it was back in my inventory, but I hadn't picked it up. when I put it back on the ground, it was holding the lbn I had left in it.
[16:00] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, an interesting question there - what even makes something in e2 the same as something from e1, eh? Congrats on finding a whole patch of those anyhow, I haven't seen any so far.
[16:02] Diana Coman: is it possible there was some pickall from the bot that picked that table up? It really sounds like some unintentional pick up, not sure how else it would just move from the ground to your inventory (and otherwise that it held the lbn you had left into it sounds perfectly fine, since indeed, if you pick up a table with something in it, you pick it as it is, with the thing contained remaining in it)
[16:36] Raphael Nethersmell: ah, there was a pickall. I guess from the convo a coupla weeks ago about putting loaded craft tables into storage I assumed loaded craft tables coupldn't be put into inventory either.
Day changed to 2026-03-09
[09:04] Diana Coman: in empirical findings, apparently the smelly murky somethings are at least quite reliably obtainable - got 2 more over 24 hours of bot-zigging
[13:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I'm finding basics like sb are requiring twice the lbn to zig compared to bb, wwb, etc.
[13:23] Diana Coman: heh, noticed though since when?
[13:34] Raphael Nethersmell: since I've been leveling up the past week or so.
[13:55] Diana Coman: yeah, but leveling up specifically one skill
[13:58] Raphael Nethersmell: well, I've been leveling them all up. tinkering takes longer though because it requires inputs that are outputs from ziggurating.
[14:01] Diana Coman: at least so far I never saw any impact on enum ingredients from leveling up in tinkering
[14:04] Diana Coman: funny how it's not necessarily directly obvious or clear what the exact cause is, even from a relatively small set of reasonable candidates
[14:09] Diana Coman: on the tinkering requiring ziggurating outputs - it would surely help there if there were more people to work/be interested in different parts and trade the outputs, indeed.
[14:11] Diana Coman: not quite sure though how to get more people with such interest or how to convert from the apparently widely spread interest of "oh, just wanna find shiny new things around, as quickly and easily as possible"
[14:19] Diana Coman: or hm, maybe I should consider turning this around and have the generator spew any number of different items that are all worth ~0 but can be used to play this sort of magpie game, maybe even keep collectors busy if it gets to that, who knows
[15:29] Vivian Sporepress: fwiw, I don't notice any difference in ingredient requirements for ziggurating by resource type, on tinies and smalls
[15:30] Vivian Sporepress: indeed they generally increase as one levels up, though not in a straight line
[15:40] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: did you find your way home yet, or find anything interesting out in the farther fields?
[16:15] Diana Coman: straight lines don't seem to be all that common in euloran experience, do they
[16:17] Vivian Sporepress: about the only thing that can be said for sure
[16:25] Diana Coman: possible magpie minigame, since apparently it's enough to glance that way for there to be something at least worh mentioning in the log as such: any number of items named based on p prefixes, 1 base, s suffixes, all picked at random from large enough word pools, with different designs gui-wise from the trusty generator and allowing then combinations of 2 (or possibly more) such items based on corresponding prefixes/suffixes/bases with results...dunno, going poof with various visual effects? But definitely with magpie achievement/badges in the Notices and Announcements.
[16:27] Diana Coman: (very tempting to add to it then some decay to one character's vitals if not straight their deeper characteristics, lolz)
[16:39] Diana Coman: definitely easy to come up with ideas, funnily enough it wouldn't even be that difficult now to actually implement the above, only I'm not sure I find some actual reason to do it, or at least not yet
[16:40] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: it seems we don't have many conversions from talk to even stepping in and looking around, to the point where mini-games or lack thereof would even come up as an issue
[16:50] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, perhaps the motivation for trying something out has switched by now almost entirely into the fomo/crowd-direction side, given otherwise the overwhelm with at least apparent choice. Otherwise, as stated, it's a bit tongue in cheek really, as truly easy and easily accessible + visible activity with exactly as little actual impact as possible aka safest, too.
[16:54] Diana Coman: perhaps to play at ...playing, even, so that it's less intimidating
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: heh
[16:55] Vivian Sporepress: can there be an AI agent to play for the player?
[16:55] Diana Coman: if they can plug it in, how or why would the game care, really?
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: I don't imagine it would
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: got a statistics question, coming not from eulora but from data I've gathered on computer clock speeds ("system" and "real time" clocks, which on the standard PC derive from two independent oscillators, measured against an NTP reference hourly for 8 days). I've calculated drift rate as the derivative of the difference between clocks, but this is quite susceptible to the noise in the individual measurements. What I actually want to quantify is the long-term stability of the clocks - something like "expected variance in long-term drift after a linear compensation for the measured average". Does that sound like the right track? alternatively there's the machine learning approach, do a linear regression on a "training" subset then measure its fit to the withheld "validation" subset
[19:44] Vivian Sporepress: both clock sources seem to perform rather poorly in general and I'm considering building something from higher quality components, but the same approach would apply to validating this new source.
[19:55] Vivian Sporepress: I guess the simplest approach is to squash the noise by taking daily averages then look at standard deviation of those.
Day changed to 2026-03-10
[09:05] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the usual trouble with statistics is figuring out a close-enough set of assumptions about the underlying processes that result in the data as observed. So in this case, first of all, are the errors from these oscillators-based computer clocks (whichever way you define them) known to be normally distributed? If each interval added/subtracted a normally distributed error, it would rather follow that you'd have quite a reliable way to even keep it reasonably on track over a large enough interval at least and I'm not really sure that's the case.
[09:10] Diana Coman: otherwise taking daily averages would be indeed the simplest approach to reduce the noise of individual measurements, certainly. But it might be something other than the standard deviation of those that is more useful afterwards.
[09:25] Diana Coman: long-term stability of a clock sounds to me more to do with whether the errors it introduces in the shorter-term either compensate overall in the longer term or at least reach some finite bound and remain there after a certain point. Either of these (or any other specific model) would come from those oscillators and how they are used, though I don't know enough on that to know what model fits.
[09:28] Diana Coman: from what I recall on any system where there was no explicit sync with some reference clock, the drift only ever seemed to increase, hence my reservation as to how normally distributed the errors truly are. Of course it might just be that I never let it be for truly long enough so that there is some visible compensation too but not so sure that's really the case.
[21:25] Nestor Nethercross: Rainer Tracksnarl where are you?
[21:25] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -20.22 97.33 34.79 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:34] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 2.4k shells more than what you're offering.
[21:53] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 494 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:58] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 65 shells more than what you're offering.
[22:10] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[22:10] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -24.20 99.86 -16.51 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
Day changed to 2026-03-11
[03:30] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: makes sense about needing to model the underlying processes accurately enough. To clarify a bit how I'm seeing it, there's the error introduced by the measurement process (even measurements taken in quick succession will vary) and then there's the drift rate of the clock, its sharpness or flatness as it were, over a given interval, which also fluctuates, mainly due to temperature dependence, says the theory. Neither seems likely to be normally distributed; possibly the accumulated drift over time more so, something like a random walk.
[06:03] Vivian Sporepress: for ntp, the variability in measurements presumably comes from variable network conditions; for the rtc, I'm supposedly listening for its update interrupt to measure the precise system time, but it's a multitasking non-realtime system so who knows what might delay it between that interrupt and waking up the userspace program which reads the time.
[09:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, hm, I suppose there is the added question of whether you are trying to evaluate the rtc clock itself as a separate entity as much as possible or its use in context (which comes at all times with the same added errors as any measurement). Either way, if what you are trying to measure is not normally distributed, then there is the question of what exactly does a standard deviation tell you reliably, if anything and more to the point what might be perhaps more useful instead.
[09:18] Diana Coman: don't rtc implementations or at least designs actually come with any sort of discussions of their rationale and/or theoretical models at least? I'd expect there is somewhere something of this sort and there should be at least some mention in there of both expected process errors and their estimated impact in some form or another.
[09:26] Diana Coman: failing the above or in any case, making faster use perhaps of already collected data, in principle at least, for starters you can always simply plot whatever relevant data you have and get at least some idea as to what sort of distribution it might fit, if any, taking it afterwards from there.
[09:31] Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[09:43] Diana Coman: I guess the only way to avoid anyhow the likely in-chat spam of price finding as it currently happens, the only real solution would have to mean sending over the price per unit for items put in give/receive in an exchange and then having the client be aware of these and actually use them to calculate and show to the player the relevant amounts. With the usual headache that very low q, low value items can easily end up as 0 per unit and going into decimals can then backfire with overflows on high q, high value items. Which leaves only some powers of 10 approach, I suppose, sending the value over as a tuple, pushing for as many decimals as needed to get at least one non-zero and otherwise limiting decimals on higher values e.g. 0.0234 is (234, 4), 1.51 is (151, 2), 8341 is (8341, 0)
[17:24] Vivian Sporepress: I looked into the MC146818 which was reportedly the original RTC from the 1984 IBM PC/AT, with the functionality later moved around but with some attempt at compatibility. That one's a purely digital chip, it discusses registers and bus interfacing and timings but not clock oscillators as it's driven by an external one. So I'd have to look closer at the crystal component itself. On the other question, I'm not sure how the clock would be separable from its use in context so I think I'm looking at the latter.
[17:33] Vivian Sporepress: on the merchant price reporting, the decimal float approach sounds OK (though I'd have guessed the opposite sign, .0234 = 234x10^-4 = (234,-4) or maybe 2.34x10^-2 = (234,-2)) but would it have to be per unit, if you're already attaching it to specific stacks in give/receive? I can see that being the most helpful, but would just giving the rounded total in shells for the cart also work?
[18:06] Felicia Solecrimp: im here on ppp
[18:08] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: shiny R plots at http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-plot.png , http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-hist.png
[18:10] Vivian Sporepress: (to put the units in perspective, 10ppm of drift means about a second per day.)
[19:07] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, giving the rounded total in shells or anything else has the trouble that you can't really tell in fact on *what* exactly it is and it can easily end up outdated/not quite matching what you see, with the client having no real way of warning, this is really why I was going for a per unit per stack since then it doesn't actually change once obtained hence it's always valid at least exactly as seen. Then again, giving a single total (one for the Give, one for the Receive) would have the advantage of fewer values to ask for and otherwise dumber clientside working just as well. With the added downside that the server needs then to fully calculate such totals each time something changes. On the decimal float, the values were given as they would be sent (and since the sign is indeed always minus, there is no point in sending it).
[19:20] Diana Coman: I suppose the downside would be that the total might end up slightly different than the client expects at least in some cases, due to floating point and rounding/truncating/generally how the npc handles exactly the total
[19:27] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, looking at those charts, it doesn't really look much like a normal or at least not like a very neat one, lolz. Kind of wondering just how different would it even look if taken on another week, at that. I suppose one can at least say that failing anything else better, at least it's not entirely far away from a normal so perhaps the mean and std deviation still say something better than nothing at all. I wonder now how would the actual plain differences rtc-sys look like if one were to ideally have it resync at each reading (or failing that, at least calculate it that way, I suppose, though ofc that introduces further potential unknowns in there)
[19:27] Diana Coman: assuming equally distanced readings, ofc
[19:31] Diana Coman: though I have to say that I expect it will still look more or less like nothing in particular, hm
[19:32] Vivian Sporepress: what would resyncing accomplish? wouldn't it just reset the plain difference equal to the present derivative?
[19:33] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, congrats on getting back to PPP. Does it make sense now how you travel betwen sectors and is that map thing of any use to you?
[19:34] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, it's not clear whether the errors accumulate or not, is it?
[19:35] Diana Coman: i.e. does a reading after the reset/resync differ vs one after whatever amount of running?
[19:36] Felicia Solecrimp: so yes the map makes sense to me but it was showing that the funny hammock of glum was to the other side some how i got help from vivian i ve learn that there are so many places i havent visit yet
[19:36] Vivian Sporepress: yes, after resetting rtc = sys, then the rtc-sys difference reads close to zero; drift accumulates thereafter.
[19:36] Diana Coman: the land is infinite so there are literally an infinite number of places one hasn't visited yet, heh
[19:38] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, is that resetting purely software? the point is: if I look at the error within one hour taken at random somewhere within whatever interval of running, is it similar to the error likely within the first hour after a reset?
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: what I observed on Felicia Solecrimp's map was the same as I'd noted before - it initially shows current sector (funny hammock of glum, for her) at center, but on moving, it turns out the map hadn't figured out how it related and it was actually on PPP.
[19:40] Diana Coman: it fails to update when one reopens it?
[19:42] Vivian Sporepress: that doesn't sound quite like it. more like: 1) open map, see FHG at center and moony precipice of longing to the east (which I know to be incorrect, they're not adjacent). 2) click next east - now moony precipice is at center and PPP is west. 3) click next west, returning to starting offset: now PPP is at center, moony precipice to the east and eulora incognita to the west, where we actually are.
[19:43] Diana Coman: obviously after resetting rtc = sys, that's the definition of resetting, yes. Then sys(t+1) - rtc(t) - rtc(t+1) would be the newly added error, if I follow what is going on there.
[19:44] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, oh, so it actually *recorded* the stuff wrong for her client? It would need clearing up in that txt file, it can't really know when it got something wrong...
[19:46] Diana Coman: so dubious that fhg with mpl to its east, ugh
[19:46] Vivian Sporepress: just checked: sect_offset_kw has only PPP and MPL, in correct places; a possible oddity is sect_name_kw lists both eulora incognita and mpl at 1,0
[19:47] Vivian Sporepress: it seems more like a gui view problem than a knowledge one
[19:48] Diana Coman: did she end up in whatever further away sector she was in via some unintended bot-jump ?
[19:48] Vivian Sporepress: she was only in fhg.
[19:49] Diana Coman: not really: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4738
[19:49] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-01 (Eulora 2) Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[19:49] Vivian Sporepress: like, the map initially tries really hard to show current sector at center, even though it doesn't know current sector's offset and so initializes offset to 0,0. Ah - I meant just now; not sure of the whole history so yeah perhaps that's how it ended up not knowing at all.
[19:51] Diana Coman: and most likely what happened is that the bot got her quickly 2 sectors past and that was too fast for the map to figure out correctly fully the new sectors so myeah, it got partially messed up. And yes, the map tries really hard exactly that, to show current sector at center. It should be fine to delete that eulora incognita for the sector which is actually known anyhow
[19:54] Diana Coman: tbh I suspect I'll actually have to reduce the allowed speed for one, possibly have the client handle better the edge of sectors since it knows them in fact as such and thus perhaps reduce the chances of too-quick jumps too since they aren't really helpful it turns out. Or at least not in terms of figuring things out, lolz
[19:57] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: not following the sys(t+1) - rtc(t) - rtc(t+1), that seems to be doubly subtracting the raw time values (epoch-relative or however they're represented). but I would say the reset is purely software; it changes the raw time values associated with clock ticks but doesn't affect the rate of ticking.
[19:58] Vivian Sporepress: you *could* have it update each time the interpretation in seconds per tick but that would seem to complicate matters.
[20:01] Vivian Sporepress: I don't know of a mechanism whereby the drift *rate* would accumulate, like it wanders more and more sharp over time, except on the multiple years scale because there are aging effects.
[20:04] Vivian Sporepress: but if it does, it would show up on those plots as an expansion of the range and shifting of the mean over time
[20:04] Diana Coman: right, that difference is not right as stated, it would more likely be ticks by sys vs ticks by rtc so possibly (sys(t+1) - sys(t)) - (rtc(t+1)-rtc(t)). But anyway, if the resync doesn't affect the rate of ticking than might as well keep to the derivative only, indeed. Only it leaves us back to ...looking at another week to see how/if it differs, not much else I can currently see otherwise
[20:06] Diana Coman: and yes, exactly that, shifting about at the very least. As to expansion of range dunno, it's already quite spread as it is and the mean doesn't seem likely too close to the median so dunno what it says exactly.
[20:08] Vivian Sporepress: Median :-33.62, Mean :-33.76
[20:08] Diana Coman: I suppose you can assume it is close enough to a normal, calculate its parameters as observed and then do perhaps a few tests over a couple more weeks
[20:08] Diana Coman: huh? then why does that histogram look like way more to the left of -33?
[20:11] Vivian Sporepress: dunno, maybe because of that one big bar just to the right of it?
[20:15] Diana Coman: there are some matching exactly on either side and then quite a few higher on the left but given the numbers, it would look like that one single shot balances the rest, so much for the visuals, eh. Anyways, perhaps then further argument to still considering it a normal, at least until/unless next month fully shows it's not.
[20:17] Vivian Sporepress: it makes sense to me at least that it's steeper on the right: if the measurement error is mostly from scheduling delays then there's a sharp lower bound on the delay and no upper bound
[20:19] Vivian Sporepress: then the better aggregation to reduce that error is max(rtc-sys) for the interval rather than mean
[20:24] Diana Coman: steeper on the right due to scheduling delays having no upper bound and sharp lower bound makes sense. Not quite following though why max(rtc-sys) since it can be just a one freak-out, no
[20:24] Diana Coman: ?
[20:30] Vivian Sporepress: upper quartile then, perhaps? the idea is that the best measurements are those where the delay was least
[20:34] Diana Coman: generally statistics doesn't aim for best measurements since it can't do much reasoning of that sort, it aims at best for more representative measurements.
[20:46] Vivian Sporepress: a similar question comes up with NTP since implementations try to somehow aggregate multiple samples, and likewise, there's a minimum round trip delay from the network but no maximum
[20:47] Vivian Sporepress: it seems to me that the samples with lowest delay are much more valuable than those with highest
[20:50] Vivian Sporepress: more accurate, that is; though some other phenomenon could perhaps throw off all bets entirely
[21:07] Diana Coman: you know, I start wondering if it's not more the errors that show in there than the actual clock-drift
[21:07] Diana Coman: I mean measurement errors
[21:10] Diana Coman: and therefore whether it's really clock stability/performance that matters most in practice currently or really its reading if affected by similarly signal-drowning errors
[22:01] Vivian Sporepress: I think the measurement errors drown out the signal in this data, hence my initial question, but those errors don't affect the accumulated drift over time, which is what I'm looking to minimize.
[22:14] Vivian Sporepress: the question seems to be, given the data I already have or whatever larger set might be gathered, based on what we know of how the clock behaved in this interval, what is the uncertainty in what it will do next? given that it's a relatively well controlled physical process, not some arbitrarily spiteful demon.
[22:17] Vivian Sporepress: and following, is it more worth my while to try to better compensate for it in software, or to go for better controlled hardware?
[22:27] Vivian Sporepress: (I'm currently rather biased toward the latter - garbage in, garbage out and it seems there's a variety of existing solutions on the hardware side, even if none seem to fit me exactly)
Day changed to 2026-03-12
[08:18] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, what I don't quite follow is what can be obtained that useful from a reduction perhaps in accumulated drift when that seems to be anyhow way less of a problem than the actual reading of the time at any point. Otherwise on purely theoretical grounds, since the drift is a characteristic of the hardware the most direct means to improve it would be to improve the hardware, of course, with the only reservation perhaps as to how much improvement can be further obtained, at what cost and, perhaps even more importantly unless you really are interested in advancing the theory in the field first of all, with what actual impact from a practical point of view.
[08:23] Diana Coman: in other words: if you want a better clock, then it needs better hardware; if you want better time-reporting locally, it might well be that the hardware is already way more optimized than the software so there are likely higher gains (possibly lower costs, too) in improving the software side of it.
[18:05] Vivian Sporepress: I don't think the local reading of time is a problem. it's precise as of when it's made; measuring delay between readings of two different clocks varies more since you can't read both simultaneously, but still that's well under a second; whereas the accumulated divergence adds up to seconds then minutes or more.
[18:14] Vivian Sporepress: and thus the perceived need to add dependency on regular updates from an external source.
[18:19] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/06/Notices-and-Announcements-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#204 - some curious NPC numbers
[18:19] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-12 (Notices and Announcements) Ulrich Logfetch: ** Euloran economic activity during one month to day 00 of month 11, year 6 (era 1): PCs' held value in items increased by 18`353 and their cash decreased by 12`030; NPCs' held value in items decreased by 321`838`305 and their cash increased by 321`857`585; environment value decreased by 727`814. All amounts are shown in Euloran Shell (10`000 Shells to 1 Copper). **
[18:21] Vivian Sporepress: perhaps because of Rainer retiring unpopular items from the storefront ?
[18:21] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-11 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[19:43] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, yeah, that's mostly Rainer Tracksnarl's recycling of unwanted items, indeed. I guess he got his wealth more directly exposed though it was publicly visible previously too, only not so neatly summed up in a single number.
[19:47] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, if the observed errors currently drowning the signal are due to measuring delay between readings of rtc and ntp, it would seem that the most straightforward way to make the signal clearer is in fact to take them less often, no? E.g. collect data on observed divergence over one month rather than hourly, since any additional delay due to the measurement error is then way smaller than the actual divergence, isn't it? Obviously, it pushes the whole thing for way more time to just get the data itself but dunno if there is any rush or what that would be.
[23:23] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman, yes, sampling on a longer interval when calculating slope would be equivalent to reducing noise by averaging slopes from shorter (equally spaced) intervals, if there's really no advantage to be found in higher resolution data.
[23:24] Vivian Sporepress: and I guess there isn't if that "higher resolution" is essentially just rng otuput.
[23:25] Vivian Sporepress: hey, a thermal trng built into every pc!
[23:27] Vivian Sporepress: that could actually be one of the more credible inputs to the urandom pool, if it were used - enable RTC interrupts, read the nanosecond-level CPU timestamp and mix it in.
Day changed to 2026-03-13
[02:01] Vivian Sporepress: pushing it the other way, for the rtc at least I can measure up to once per second so why not zoom in on it: http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/s8rtc-drift-detail-1s.png - these are the plain differences, so the overall downtrend should match the -33ppm mean drift rate from before, but a cyclic, sawtooth effect dominates the "measurement error" picture, if indeed that's what it is, on the milliseconds level
[02:31] Vivian Sporepress: but in more on-topic topics, finally got a tiny Abandoned Eggs built, from further digging near a prior sighting in PPP; but I seem to have lost my touch on ziggurating lately, i.e. getting much less value out for even the same inputs as used before. perhaps it's a side effect of increasing skill... or decreasing skill relative to others?
[02:33] Vivian Sporepress: I also found as Raphael Nethersmell noted earlier that using q1 lbn did better than q11, at least once, though applying that to this AE came out to 1q1 - more like abandoned eggshells.
[08:44] Diana Coman: that better-doing sounds like the lower bound/minimal yield that is currently in place to help newcomers mostly, though I wouldn't rely on it alone for the longterm
[08:46] Diana Coman: that sawtooth effect in the zoomed in data is quite striking indeed, huh
Day changed to 2026-03-15
[01:58] Vivian Sporepress: after that earlier ziggurating trouble, I return home with full pockets... any bids for 50 sm q28?
[01:59] Vivian Sporepress: or 100 bb q12
[10:31] Diana Coman: both of these tend to appear in the mid-advanced rather than the starter crafting/zig recipes and by the time one gets to those, it seems the quantities needed are quite higher. Even now, my char uses at least 35 cdg per cft click and tbh I'm not sure I'd try directly for a craft-table (bb goes into that at least) yet.
[10:32] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[10:32] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -23.81 99.86 -16.62 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[10:35] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 193 shells more than what you're offering.
[15:46] Raphael Nethersmell: I found my first wb patch. On ziggurating it, 11 lbn q11 -> 1 wm q7, [12-15] lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 but 11 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q91. less is more.
[20:25] Vivian Sporepress: that's a nice quality for sure. for me those finer results still seem more a matter of luck / many tries than a particular formula
[20:36] Raphael Nethersmell: the difference may also be an expression of our char's distinct genetics.
[20:43] Vivian Sporepress: my wooly mushrooms so far come out either q7 or q10; clearly the resource type matters too.
[20:51] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I guess the beans & moss will find use eventually. Have you gotten into any more advanced crafting? still mostly cft?
[21:11] Vivian Sporepress: at least with an SM supply we can make plenty of disgusting goop which goes into several tools.
[21:14] Raphael Nethersmell: did you use q11 lbn for wm ?
[21:16] Vivian Sporepress: I've tried q1, 11, and 25.
[21:16] Raphael Nethersmell: i was using up my low q sm recently to train crafting. only got xk and more diagrams out of it, but some rather high q diagrams at least.
[21:33] Raphael Nethersmell: does anyone have improbable oil designs to sell ? appears the one Rainer Tracksnarl had got garbage collected in the last sweep. though there are still some slag receipes that require io.
[23:22] Vivian Sporepress: not I, and I'm seeing the same (it was the Improbable Oil Schenectady), unfortunate as that's what the WM was missing for... also no more leaky treebark flask designs, nor CFTR of the original q100.
[23:36] Raphael Nethersmell: I have 1 ltfd, which will likely break into more when I try to craft it. I have several cftr > q100, might have some q100 in storage.
Day changed to 2026-03-16
[02:33] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 7.0k shells more than what you're offering.
[03:18] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4968 -- do you reckon your crafting skill isn't high enough yet to yield one ?
[03:18] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: both of these tend to appear in the mid-advanced rather than the starter crafting/zig recipes and by the time one gets to those, it seems the quantities needed are quite higher. Even now, my char uses at least 35 cdg per cft click and tbh I'm not sure I'd try directly for a craft-table (bb goes into that at least) yet.
[05:17] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4972 -- I leveled up and now my min lbn is 12. 12 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 still, but 11 lbn q8 + 1 lbn q1 -> 1 wm q97 , which I've reproduced 3 times now w/o variation. I'ma farm for more lbn q1 before I do any more clickin' on'em because the juice just ain't worth the squeeze to use the higher q lbn for nao.
[05:17] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: I found my first wb patch. On ziggurating it, 11 lbn q11 -> 1 wm q7, [12-15] lbn q8 -> 1 wm q7 but 11 lbn q8 -> 1 wm q91. less is more.
[08:23] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, interesting data on those wm, it sounds like a sweet spot you found there (possibly an inflection point/where things change quite drastically, as it were).
[08:23] Diana Coman: if anyone wants cftr recipes, I have plenty of those, at various qualities, too, since I get some each time I craft
[08:25] Diana Coman: tbh from my crafting, I rather prefer the lower q recipes, because then I get at least one of the output items too, not just other recipes at most clicks. So if anyone has q < 10 recipes, I'm interested in them
[08:27] Diana Coman: my char seems to have currently enough tinkering skill to actually raise the quality in the process i.e. I get higher quality than I put in but the downside to this is that I can't really get the lower quality inputs by myself - or at least not the inputs that still come from crafting.
[08:30] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4976 - thing is, I still don't have a reliable way to make *enough* cft to build at least all my smalls and I'm not even using anything more advanced than barehanded explore, at that so I haven't really tried all that much to craft more advanced stuff. As you say though, dg would likely be next as it goes then into tools but that's actually worth more than cft so dunno if I'll even get much of it at all, most likely I'll get a tone of recipes only
[08:30] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-15 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I guess the beans & moss will find use eventually. Have you gotten into any more advanced crafting? still mostly cft?
[08:31] Diana Coman: I'll check for what bps I have, next time I'm at my storage
[08:32] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4985 - there is double trouble with crafting a table (or tools for that matter) since one really wants higher quality output or there is little use that I'm aware of currently for it. So one has to get an item rather than only more recipes, true enough but that item better be at least reasonable quality too or it's directly garbage...
[08:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-16 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4968 -- do you reckon your crafting skill isn't high enough yet to yield one ?
[16:14] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: my crafting outputs often come out lower q than the input recipes so perhaps I can help on that recipe reduction
[16:24] Diana Coman: currently the sweet spot for cft at least seems to be with recipe at about 5-6q (with which the output ends up at around 50q anyhow)
[16:24] Diana Coman: so if you have ctfr around there, I'll buy them
[16:25] Diana Coman: otoh with grass it's more the other way around since I have a rather large pile of q1 grass and that is too low by itself so I'd rather mix it up
[16:34] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: I've got 75 cftr q4 + 122 q5 available, which I'd trade for the equivalent value of higher q recipes since I can still break those down
[16:35] Vivian Sporepress: could perhaps mix the q4s up to 5-6, too
[16:35] Diana Coman: works as they are, no trouble
[16:35] Diana Coman: let me go to storage and have a look then
[16:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, I have currently 159 cftr q46 and 397 cftr q47. If you'd rather have them higher q, it's easy enough for me to get them really, so let me know what would work best for you.
[16:41] Diana Coman: sadly no IO recipes in storage, apparently picking correctly what might be needed if Rainer Tracksnarl was not around to provide it is not that easy at all
[16:43] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, fwiw I'm fine to sell/buy at 110% for usual resources and bps, even when there isn't otherwise an exact match for direct barter exchange, since this hopefully makes it better for both buyer and seller compared to relying on the NPC
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: the q46-47 sound fine as I haven't been able to make use of excess value there so far.
[16:48] Diana Coman: so let's see, 18*(75*0.04+122*0.05) = 163.8, 18*20*0.46=165.6 would work for me
[16:49] Diana Coman: or would you rather have just the coppers?
[16:49] Diana Coman: well, the shells most likely, lolz
[16:49] Vivian Sporepress: the barter works. traffic might be a little higher at my tree right now so meet at yours?
[16:50] Diana Coman: sure, it's at 0, -32
[16:50] Diana Coman: quite a bunch of claims here too, I think one of the NPCs was digging earlier
[16:52] Diana Coman: actually our trees are quite near to one another
[16:53] Vivian Sporepress: yeah, it's about the same, only Nestor Nethercross himself went out of view when I moved over.
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: well Wolfgang Middlesit too which might make a difference due to his holdings.
[16:54] Diana Coman: yeah, he needs a clean out as well, I noticed
[16:54] Diana Coman: I guess they really need to get good at doing that more regularly
[16:56] Diana Coman: thanks
[16:56] Vivian Sporepress: my pleasure
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: could the merchants just mix down some of their excessively varying quality stacks?
[16:58] Diana Coman: they could but it's not worth it really, since it's not clear what is a wanted quality, if any, so to my eye it makes more sense if they keep it as it comes in for a while and then simply ditch it entirely if nobody buys it
[16:58] Vivian Sporepress: so far indeed it seems one's own shelf proves more reliable than an NPC merchant even of Rainer Tracksnarl's weight; dunno if all these caverns might be subject to cave-ins or floods though...
[16:58] Diana Coman: if people want some quality to be made out of these, they can buy and make, while if they don't want it anyway, why would the npc still keep it?
[16:59] Diana Coman: well, the merchant NPCs are looking to trade not to serve as storage so it's certainly true that they would rather not hang on to stock indefinitely
[17:00] Diana Coman: then again, as you say, it's very possible that in time all items decay or vanish perhaps, even if the process is maybe extremely slow in storage
[17:01] Vivian Sporepress: when a merchant "ditches" an item does it mean they essentially change it to unseen cash?
[17:01] Vivian Sporepress: that's how it looked from the economic report
[17:02] Diana Coman: this time they recycled it to cash, yes, though it's not necessarily fixed, it might make more sense at some point to recycle it more literally, hence returning to the environment where it was extracted from in the first place
[17:03] Vivian Sporepress: generous of them
[17:04] Diana Coman: it's more a matter of overall balance, since I'm not sure I want to fix now unwanted items as an in-game monetary inflationary mechanism as such.
Day changed to 2026-03-17
[12:43] Diana Coman: gotta love the all-seeing bot - one can literally just move about various sectors and peak to see what others found, lolz
[12:46] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, mind making for me one of those tiny wm bundles you say work so well for you? I guess it would be about q10 bundle. I can give you either 110% qabv for it or the corresponding in q1 lbn if you prefer that
[12:47] Diana Coman: apparently my zig skill is too high to be able to make a q10 tiny bundle by myself even with q1 lbn
[15:13] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, sure, I have 2 wm bundles q10
[15:14] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, we have an infinite map and you show up right next to me in the 2nd ring, small world afterall !
[15:14] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, your leaving some lbn behind in your wake.
[15:49] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I also have 2 q2, 3 q11, 2 q13 and 1 q18 wm bundles if you're interested.
[16:48] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, well, we all leave from + return to the centre so yeah, likely to still meet
[16:48] Diana Coman: could try those bundles too, sure
[16:49] Diana Coman: if we manage to meet time-wise
[16:50] Diana Coman: fwiw that wm is quite a small patch, not that I saw yet a medium-high resource with truly a large patch
[16:52] Diana Coman: and since I kind of already mapped largely the 1st ring around PPP, I moved on to the 2nd ring indeed
[16:53] Diana Coman: not sure about any leftover lbn as the bot has pickall in there and atm at least I don't see any lbn, maybe there was some that the bot failed to see
[17:36] Raphael Nethersmell: holy pops, after bot ziggin' these wm I see I'm sittin' on a stack of 17 mysterious rock q1 !!!11!!eleventy!!
[17:36] Raphael Nethersmell: does 45 mins from now work for you timewise ?
[17:37] Raphael Nethersmell: or let me know a window that is convenient and i
[17:37] Raphael Nethersmell: 'll adapt.
[18:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, now? Otherwise within next 45 minutes or 8pm utc if that works better
[18:16] Diana Coman: so mysterious rocks from wm, is it? Congratulations!
[18:27] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana, do you know qabv of the buundles ? I was about to return to town to get a quote from Rainer Tracksnarl and come right back.
[18:29] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, it would generally be equal to one obtained item, logically speaking, no/
[18:29] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm making that run right quick and will brb.
[18:30] Diana Coman: for zig I guess it's trickier, but there I took the original/initial non-changing input, hence for a tiny it would be the base value of 1 lbn, hence 11
[18:30] Diana Coman: ok, ping me when you are back to the devil's own bayou
[18:33] Diana Coman: ftr, bv (base value) would be the value of an item at bq (base quality, which is for many - though not all - items exactly 100). Then qabv (quality adjusted base value) would be the NPC/game-set value of an item at whatever quality it happens to be.
[19:04] Diana Coman: well, I guess it will be at 8pm utc then as I have to go now
[19:08] Raphael Nethersmell: ok, will be there then.
[19:08] Raphael Nethersmell: Rainer Tracksnarl quotes me 1 shell for the q10 bundle, oy vey.
[20:07] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, are you around now? At 11 likely bv for tiny bundly, it makes 1 shell at q10, indeed.
[20:38] Raphael Nethersmell: I am around.
[20:40] Raphael Nethersmell: my q10s got bot zig'd, ugh. sorry. I have 4 q9, 3 q11, 2 q13, 2 q18
[20:42] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, where are you?
[20:52] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I'm at 210 230
[20:52] Diana Coman: it's ok
[20:54] Raphael Nethersmell: omw
[20:57] Diana Coman: (4*0.09+3*0.11+2*0.13+2*0.18)*11 =14.41 so *1.1 = 15.85 aka 16 shells or did you prefer the lbn?
[20:58] Raphael Nethersmell: lbn please
[20:59] Diana Coman: meh, I calculated that on 15 instead of 16, there should be some 10 lbn more
[21:00] Raphael Nethersmell: wanna drop on ground ?
[21:00] Diana Coman: it will take ages for it to disown
[21:00] Diana Coman: 1sec, this exchange should go through and then will just do another one
[21:03] Diana Coman: there we go, thanks!
[21:04] Diana Coman: now to see what wm I get with these vs my own bundles
[21:04] Raphael Nethersmell: enjoy !
[21:05] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, I'd be curious. apart from the amr my wm q have gone way down, into the q1 or q7 range. with same skill and inputs. luck of the draw. maybe my guy is bored of it and neds some novelty.
[21:07] Raphael Nethersmell: I noticed zigging isn't moving my sorting xp recently. I've left zigging xp maxxed out, but nevertheless sorting xp pegged at 8%
[21:07] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I expect it's just not on wm
[21:08] Diana Coman: and actually 11 MR should be quite a bit of value, even q1
[21:09] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, I know the MR command a pretty penny.
[21:11] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm thinking for my excess skills to offer them to n00bs on credit based on vamp contract. take skill today, pay me back over time.
[21:14] Diana Coman: apprentice-style, that would make sense entirely, at least with someone interested enough to stick with it
[21:14] Diana Coman: in principle a noob is exactly well paired with someone more advanced, they can provide lower q bundles and/or inputs, you can provide them skill items and/or higher q inputs to have them advance faster
[21:14] Diana Coman: but well, if they figure it out first, for sure
[21:16] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, i have some people in mind, but not sure what's taking them so long to pop in.
[21:16] Diana Coman: so far on the wm experiment, 3 tinies built with bp q4 + bundle q9 resulted reliably in 2wm q1 each time, lolz
[21:17] Diana Coman: then again, wm is 780 iirc, so 2*0.01*780 is still some 15 at least
[21:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I was thinking last night it'd be cool to have something like a cli.sh that would send commands to eucore from the host cli bypassing the gui. reports various output to standard output, e.g. pos
[21:19] Raphael Nethersmell: the gui os good and I like, but sometimes feel like it gets in the way.
[21:19] Diana Coman: that would literally be a cli client, wouldn't it?
[21:21] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 260 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:22] Raphael Nethersmell: in my mind it's a hybrid.
[21:22] Diana Coman: in case those 2 wm q1 seemed too little for a q9 bundle, experience informs now that one gets exactly same for a q18 bundle so might as well go possibly with a q1 bundle if at all achievable, lolz
[21:23] Diana Coman: you mean to run it fully as normal, only in addition to that *also* interface directly from a pos terminal?
[21:25] Raphael Nethersmell: an example of gui getting in way is, my x11 gui is fluxbox. I have e2 gui in one workspace and tmux terminal from where i launch game, view logs, adjust configs in other workspace. I notice when I'm focused on the gui, I tend to get higher rep counts. sometimes this is resolves by jiggling the char. when I'm focused on tailing the bot log, I rarely get rep counts over 4 or 5. it operates more efficiently.
[21:25] Diana Coman: while a 4354q bundle got me 9 wm q7, aka 9*0.07*780, hrm
[21:28] Diana Coman: that's literally just because the gui itself indeed turns off when it's not visible on the screen. And in any case, it is certainly true that the gui tends to always be on a catch up with the text-only, there is no way around this since all the graphical stuff is literally an addition. I guess what you are saying is that one would like the convenience of a text-only client *and* that of a gui-client without having to restart, lolz
[21:28] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, yeah, run gui normally, but have an option to issue console commands from host. I have nfi the implementation difficulty of such a thing, but the desire came up.
[21:28] Diana Coman: which makes sense, certainly
[21:29] Diana Coman: it's more a matter of whether it's really worth it as it were, since what you gain is really just the above, that you don't have to restart the client. Dunno if it's such a hassle to start it really, is it?
[21:29] Raphael Nethersmell: yeah, the double convenience, for certain things, I'm always clicking and clucking.
[21:30] Raphael Nethersmell: I find I don't even need to restart the client all the time, sometimes just switching workspaces is enough.
[21:31] Diana Coman: well, it's certainly in the log now and thus considered at least
[21:32] Raphael Nethersmell: well said. lolz.
[21:50] Raphael Nethersmell: did anyone get the bot craft to work successfully ? in my experience it'll craft the first run fine, but fails the takeall on the output before loading the inputs for the next run and basically gets choked up/confused from there.
Day changed to 2026-03-18
[00:47] Raphael Nethersmell: I have a phantom exchange hanging around for a coupla hours that has persisted across a coupla client restarts.
[08:01] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, I'll have to check on that phantom exchange thing, if it persists across client restarts it's likely something serverside, thanks for reporting it. The bot craft works for me, though one needs to let it be, indeed. It does not do a takeall on the target but then the next run anyhow clears it out since the outputs of previous run will not work as inputs to the next.
[14:03] Raphael Nethersmell: The phantom exchange window cleared over night. Aok about bot craft, I'll be more patient with it.
Day changed to 2026-03-19
[18:38] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you ?
[18:38] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[18:38] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.86 -17.82 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:48] Felicia Solecrimp: https://luz713.wordpress.com/2026/03/19/spicy-moss-mousaka-item/ made a couple of designs for spicy moss mousaka
[19:25] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, that's worth about 5.5k shells more than what you're offering.
[19:38] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, nice sketches but how can one leave a comment on your blog so it's exactly where it belongs? Kind of rough to say much on them at this stage since the detail and colouring can easily make a big difference but from what I see, I like the curly toppers and uneven layers on the first underlined one (1st page, 2nd row, on the right) though I'd possibly make the layers' less neatly defined I guess and possibly something of that very much moussaka-shape of the one before last (2nd page, last row, left side)
[19:43] Diana Coman: this being said, it's really the completed image that makes the difference - so if you like one idea or direction in particular, just go with that and make it all the way, most likely any fully polished final image will look better than a rough sketch
[19:44] Diana Coman: meanwhile speaking of spicy moss, it turns out the bot got me a SM ord even, mfft
[19:45] Diana Coman: which takes apparently ~all the crazy: 80 LH, 40DM, 26 TLC, 26 WM
[20:47] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, congrats ! interesting its inputs are different than the inputs you mentioned for the cr ord pre public log days (ed, sg, wwb).
[21:33] Vivian Sporepress: looks close to the olden days formula, http://ossasepia.com/Eulora/mining-recipes.html
[22:06] Vivian Sporepress: don't think I've found any ordinaries since buying one of the bundles :/
[22:41] Raphael Nethersmell: i'm still and ordinary (claim) virgin.
Day changed to 2026-03-20
[00:35] Vivian Sporepress: re Felicia Solecrimp's blog comments, we poked a bit around the wp-admin but no "don't be broken" checkbox emerged. Her successful commenters so far seem to be mostly liking-bots plus my mom via some kind of email gateway. I've told her she'll likely have to pay for some actual hosting to move up from the wordpress.com freebie.
[00:36] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman, she had three pages of sketches, it sounded like maybe you missed the first?
[08:26] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, ah, I had seen all three pages of sketches but apparently when scrolling to reference them I miscalculated, so the corrected pages would be 2 and 3 there, indeed. Maybe it helps to just add some numbers to the sketches at the end so people can reference them more directly?
[08:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-19 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, nice sketches but how can one leave a comment on your blog so it's exactly where it belongs? Kind of rough to say much on them at this stage since the detail and colouring can easily make a big difference but from what I see, I like the curly toppers and uneven layers on the first underlined one (1st page, 2nd row, on the right) though I'd possibly make the layers' less neatly defined I guess and possibly something of that very much moussaka-shape of the one before last (2nd page, last row, left side)
[08:28] Diana Coman: if the comments are now broken on a default wordpress.com installation don't they reply to any support/similar query about it? As far as I recall they used to reply eventually, though that was indeed nearly 20 years ago iirc.
[08:29] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, ordinary claims seem to all take different ingredients, indeed. It's only tinies and small that are so conveniently same and easy, lolz.
[08:31] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#5121 - yeah, only quantities are something else but it's true that those values in the e1 cookbook were taken at a time before the skill had any visible impact on a recipe's reading
[08:31] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-19 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: looks close to the olden days formula, http://ossasepia.com/Eulora/mining-recipes.html
[08:32] Diana Coman: maybe buying upfront an ord bundle scares away any such find, lolz
[08:33] Diana Coman: but yeah, when I bought a cdg bundle thinking that anyway I kept exploring at the cdg patch, ofc it turned out that even at the cdg patch I got at most a sr ord, not a cdg one, obviously.
[08:35] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, ordinary claim virgin lolz. There would be then remarkable virgins too, at the very least (and more, only even in e1 I think there were only a couple of instances of the next size up, nobody got anything further than that).
Day changed to 2026-03-21
[01:09] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#5133 -- buy one of each then for balance ?
[01:09] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: but yeah, when I bought a cdg bundle thinking that anyway I kept exploring at the cdg patch, ofc it turned out that even at the cdg patch I got at most a sr ord, not a cdg one, obviously.
[08:59] Diana Coman: buying at least one of everything would be in principle the minimum insurance indeed, if only one had space (and bulk, and weight), let alone money for it all at this stage. Failing that, I did buy at that time one sr and one cdg bundle, ended up anyway coming back later and from another sector no less, for another cdg bundle and so on. Not much full replacement for being able to make one's own bundles but until then, one is dependent on Rainer Tracksnarl's stock, sadly.
[09:01] Diana Coman: at least I got out of it a small pile of sr and then a more decent pile of cdg q1 to mix then up as needed for cft, so I'm not exactly complaining
[16:42] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 343 shells more than what you're offering.
Comments feed: RSS 2.0