| mircea_popescu: | 8mn, go me | [14:03] |
| diana_coman: | congrats mircea_popescu , not that bad 8mn | [14:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | was sm, came out all q1 | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | lol! | [14:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | which i thought was bizarre tbh. | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | but yeah, that's the spiel with building: loads -> very low q | [14:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | but if anyone needs low q sm to fix their stacks... | [14:04] |
| diana_coman: | iirc I kept giving examples of this thing, hmmm | [14:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman i suppose in a sense it makes sense, if you get 5x more copper out of a copper mine it's gonna be worse quality. | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | as in http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-05-13.log.html#t15:54:00 | [14:05] |
| lobbesbot: | Logged on 2017-05-13 15:54:00: <diana_coman> in other observations: when noob "mini-pops" he gets all of a sudden very low q | [14:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | but im not a noob | [14:05] |
| diana_coman: | eh, thing was same for fox just that at that time I was more noob-mining | [14:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | re 5x more copper -> lower q copper makes sense if one is talking of ~same mine as it were | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | some of it mixed with shit, I suppose | [14:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, an ordinary | [14:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. | [14:06] |
| diana_coman: | otherwise honestly I'd see it more like some core high q and then a load of shit | [14:07] |
| diana_coman: | but not like...ONLY shit | [14:07] |
| diana_coman: | oh well | [14:07] |
| Gaxaro: | diana_coman are you there? | [15:18] |
| diana_coman: | hi Gaxaro , I am | [15:18] |
| Gaxaro: | diana_coman, I fucked up badly, fail my life... | [15:18] |
| diana_coman: | how is that? | [15:18] |
| Gaxaro: | Well, remember that ordinary flotsam claim? That has been locked all the time, um well, the key for it recently not long ago turned into a little bit o nothing in my inventory | [15:19] |
| Gaxaro: | even tho the claim is locked | [15:20] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, they do after a while | [15:20] |
| diana_coman: | locked means only that it lasts ...longer; NOT eternally | [15:20] |
| Gaxaro: | Oh.. Well i thought it did. | [15:20] |
| diana_coman: | well, now you *know* it doesn't | [15:21] |
| diana_coman: | how's it going with the rest? | [15:21] |
| Gaxaro: | So that claim is pretty much lost now then? | [15:21] |
| diana_coman: | yes, it's gone, nothing to do about it | [15:21] |
| Gaxaro: | Bummer | [15:22] |
| diana_coman: | eh, learn from it and otherwise keep going | [15:22] |
| diana_coman: | let me know when you're done with all the bundles | [15:22] |
| diana_coman: | btw, you might want to keep the keys -they will turn into little bits of nothing and those are useful too (to build tiny claims) | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | or at least pick them up I guess, if/when you see them around | [15:23] |
| Gaxaro: | Will do, and i am at 28 claim left atm | [15:23] |
| diana_coman: | kk | [15:23] |
| Gaxaro: | I mean bundles, anyway i would have been done with it sooner if it wasn't for the cold i had | [15:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman no need for wed downtime i don't think ? | [16:35] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, no, no downtime scheduled this week | [16:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | cool. ima try the bouq bundle again who knows. | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | aha, good luck; when that's done I'll buy either low q mcguyver cons or a bouq cons to click with a noob I suppose | [16:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | will see what comes out. | [16:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | i figure after this i actually click some dt. | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | heh, ping me in between as otherwise won't be able to trade for ages I guess | [16:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | o fuck, yeah, definitely. | [16:48] |
| kline: | sure | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | hello kline | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman ^ freenode person. | [17:46] |
| diana_coman: | hello kline | [17:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline dev chan, is logged at http://logs.minigame.bz/latest.log.html | [17:48] |
| diana_coman: | heh mircea_popescu have you seen the 2 windows shown now for the bps in game? | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | btw this bouq cons is 466589 bv | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | q3030 | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh i forgot to even look. | [17:51] |
| diana_coman: | what do I owe you for it? | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | check that out. much better like this. | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman say 5mn ? | [17:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 466589 / 30.3 | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | that's qabv actually, yes | [17:52] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 466589 / 30.3 = 15398.976897689767 | [17:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | i got them at 15399 too. | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | 5mn works, yes | [17:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | aite. | [17:52] |
| diana_coman: | ha, rounding is always on spirover's side or what | [17:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | prolly. | [17:53] |
| kline: | ok | [17:54] |
| kline: | so for using freenode as a message backend, how many people do you think will be connected? | [17:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | so far, maybe a dozen or so. in the indefinite future, no idea. | [17:54] |
| kline: | across how many channels? | [17:55] |
| kline: | like, are there multiple channels in game that would map across multiple channels in freenode? | [17:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, this may be problematic. the way the next version is designed to work, there will be very many maps. in the most extensive conception we could have about sqrt(players) channels. | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | depending how they diverge from origin. but drunk walk usually a good rule of thumb | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | in the sense of having a world channel (this) and local per-map channels. and then of course pms. | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | now the important point here is that this ISN'T an attempt by minigame to offload the cost of chat upon freenode ; minigame is rich, we can afford infrastructure, and i expect we can work something out. the ~whole point is whether this makes sense technologically. | [17:58] |
| kline: | so if you can afford the infra, why are you using freenode? | [18:00] |
| kline: | where you would have strictly less flexibility than running even the exact same software as we do but entirely under your own control? | [18:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | because then a player could simply pop in his webirc from mt everest and still connect. | [18:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | rather than re-build all the everything irc. | [18:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | but yes, in principle we could just create yet-another irc set. | [18:02] |
| kline: | so the neat thing about freenode is that it allows multiple projects to share the same space and mingle | [18:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright. | [18:03] |
| kline: | but as far as i could tell, users in your game wouldnt be interested in seeing other parts of freenode, and most of the rest of freenode wouldnt be interested in joining the game chat | [18:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | conversely, if all the people who can afford infrastructure take off, there won't be very much worth mingling with left behind on freenode. | [18:04] |
| kline: | now, this isnt me saying "no" or anything, (personally, id love to host you) | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, i understad. it's an exploratory talk after all. | [18:04] |
| kline: | well, no, because being _on_ freenode is about more than just control, its the network effect | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | up to a certain limit, cooperation and so on is a foss goal. but where exactly the limit is depends. | [18:04] |
| kline: | but the network effect isnt strong between players of a game and foss in general | [18:04] |
| kline: | but between foss, it is strong | [18:04] |
| kline: | users of #python are often interested in #ubuntu, and likewise #ubuntu will often speak to #nginx, etc | [18:05] |
| kline: | but as mentioned, it may not even be possible (or desirable) for your players to be able to explore the rest of the network, and likewise, the rest of the network is not much interested in your in-game chat | [18:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline this presupposes all people are equal. this isn't much regarded in the republican ideology. properly speaking someone worth 1mn speaking one line in ngins is more than a thousand worth 10bux each speaking a line each in same nginx. | [18:05] |
| kline: | so you'd expect to see players of your game in #nginx, and likewise, people who came for #nginx to find people in there suggesting that they chat to people found in your game? | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | in any case -- the players to compile their own client from source, and most clients in the wild are hacked and so on. it's not substantially DIFFERENT people from what you find around freenode as it is. | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline i don't think anyone currently here is just here, for instance. and i don't think any of the players discovered freenode with eulora. | [18:07] |
| kline: | ok, so there is an overlap in interest? i should preface all this with a mention that i dont know anything about your game | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline yes, it's primary a linux, do it yourself, please hack it sort of thing. | [18:07] |
| kline: | if your game particularly focuses on foss for example (im thinking #bussard, for example), it may be a good match | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not sure what that means (never seen bussard) | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | but : you can't play it without a pgp key for instance. there's a minimum bar which in general selects for pretty much exactly the same thing as ends up in the broader foss movement. | [18:08] |
| diana_coman: | kline, game's client is open source and moreover, community is totally INVITED to hack it, make bots for it etc | [18:08] |
| kline: | bussard is a game where to progress you specifically have to work on and in the game engine - your "ship" instance is completely programmable a la how people often reprogram or extend emacs and such | [18:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh i recall this. | [18:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, similar concept, you pretty much have to make your own bot | [18:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | or i guess hack existing item. | [18:09] |
| diana_coman: | kline, re links/interest for other parts of freenode: eulora uses blender art and the point is to make a way for people to be able to contribute art and use others' art too - so I can see a link there too | [18:13] |
| diana_coman: | including the more technical part aka importing/exporting from blender for instance | [18:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah, once art marketplace is in that'll prolly end up pretty large. | [18:14] |
| kline: | ok | [18:19] |
| kline: | well, like i said, personally id be happy to host you, but im still not sure whats really in it for _you_ guys | [18:19] |
| kline: | ive passed all the stuff ive got from this further up to a mix of infra and management and see what they end up with | [18:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's mostly me going "hey, why duplicate work when we could just use and support the work of others." | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | a freenode hosting eulora chat is larger than a freenode without it, because should freenode end up in some kind of trouble, as it periodically has in the past, it has someone to fall back to. someone else. | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | same someone as saved openbsd, assuming you know nothing about either game or me. | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | such'd be the strategic reasoning behind the question. | [18:21] |
| kline: | freenode mostly survives on intermeshed and strong communities, i just dont understand because of my ignorance how your communities mesh with the ones already on freenode, but thats mostly an ignorance on my part | [18:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, in any case the matter needn't be decided right here and now. | [18:22] |
| kline: | for example, World of Warcraft and EVE Online both use IRC under the hood for their chat system, neither use freenode | [18:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | did they ask to ? | [18:23] |
| kline: | simply because their players wouldnt ever use the game clients as their primary chat clients, and likewise the overlap between the people here and the games are limited | [18:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | but did they ask to ? | [18:23] |
| kline: | why would that matter? for what its worth, we have hosted game chats in the past | [18:23] |
| kline: | i think, personally, we'd say no to both wow/eve | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | it matters in the sense that since they didn't ask, no, it's not because your considerations, but because of theirs. as far as either wow or eve are concerned, they wouldn't be bothered to scrape freenode off their boot if they stepped on it. which is the 100\% as to why they don't use it. | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline well, the question doesn't progress far enough for you to say no. | [18:24] |
| kline: | well, i wouldnt go that far for eve at least, they leverage IRC, and freenode hosted communities and projects specifically, extensively for their development | [18:25] |
| kline: | in any case, im not sure how comparing the network you'd like to host you with dirt is supposed to further your aims | [18:26] |
| kline: | as i said, id personally love to host you but its not my decision to make | [18:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't have much aims here, beyond finding if this is a good fit or not. | [18:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | so far we seem to have fallen into a pit of insider bureaucratic thinking, which is both fine and instructive. but, the matter is still open for discussion for a while -- we just released and next release will certainly be next year. so there's plenty of time. | [18:30] |
| kline: | <mircea_popescu> so far we seem to have fallen into a pit of insider bureaucratic thinking | [18:30] |
| kline: | i dont understand what you mean by this | [18:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | specifically the "wow doesn't use freenode for its chat system for the reason we at frenode think this should be" approach. | [18:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | wow is a separate, larger entity. the insider view is to imagine all outside entities work as the local entity works. the bureaucratic view is to expect one's own reasons are meaningful outside one's own system. | [18:32] |
| kline: | oh, what i mean is, there are examples where for where our strength lies (that is, overlapped communities), other strong believers in IRC (and in eves case, developer friendly mechanics), have probably decided that using other irc infra isnt best suited for them | [18:33] |
| kline: | but i think rather we're talking past each other on that point | [18:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | possibly. | [18:33] |
| kline: | the core of my point is that freenode targets foss developers, and games typically target, well, gamers | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | but it should be obvious on the face that someone asking is thereby a believer, strong or otherwise. | [18:34] |
| kline: | the overlap between those two are typically small, and that means using our infra isnt a good match for either groups, but as i said, im ignorant (but interested) about your game and its audience | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline except the problem in my head is that a) there exists no such thing as "gamers" and "developers", same people do both ; and b) eulora targets intelligent people, without prejudice. so does anyone else. | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline here's an example of talking past each other : i say "player needs pgp to even play, at all", and you think "gamers". the tradiitonal segment of gamers doesn't know what pgp is, and can't use it. | [18:35] |
| kline: | right, and this is my (several times) self-confessed ignorance | [18:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | a gamer who can get himself organized enough to at least prod kleopatra into spitting out an armored pubkey isn't exactly non-freenode sorta mind, i;d think. | [18:36] |
| kline: | which is why ive said (also several times) that really im not saying "yes" or "no" at this point, nor is it even my decision to make, but id like to think that my input matters | [18:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, sure. you're not on trial here. | [18:37] |
| kline: | btw, has eulora registered as a project with us? | [18:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not even sure ; i recall we were in the process of doing it, then the CTO died unexpectedly. | [18:38] |
| kline: | mm, i vaguely remember the name eulora but i cant find anything in my email nor in band on the network | [18:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, diana_coman took over the job last year, it involved a lot of various work, finally we chipped the stack down to get to the chat discussion. | [18:41] |
| kline: | cool | [18:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | is there more to registering a project beyond getting cloaks for people involved ? | [18:42] |
| kline: | yeah, you need it to really stake a claim on single-# channels and namespaces, else another group can do the same, and its also useful for getting in contact with us more quickly in the event of wanting to feedback or in an issue | [18:43] |
| kline: | its a quick process, though | [18:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | so what's needed ? | [18:44] |
| kline: | https://gist.github.com/AbstractBeliefs/f82487dc7d7db54d7c94740c25c08084 | [18:44] |
| kline: | send us an email using that as a template, to projects@freenode.net | [18:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | alrighty. | [18:44] |
| kline: | for what its worth, at this point the feedback is "yes, we'll host you" :) | [18:46] |
| kline: | but hosting end-user infra is something relatively new to us (even where the line between developer and end user (gamer)) is relatively blurred | [18:46] |
| kline: | so id probably suggest we keep in touch as it goes | [18:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | shinohai mind emailing the fellows, "Eulora", "the definitive MMORPG", link to eulorum and i guess http://trilema.com/category/smg/ , my acct as primary, diana and yourself secondary, claim #eulora as channel and #eulora- as namespace | [18:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline the wiki is community run, for instance, do the links have to all be strictly project owned as such ? | [18:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline should i provision a dedicated server somewhere ? | [18:47] |
| kline: | we dont mind what you do outside of here, if thats what you're asking...? | [18:47] |
| kline: | why would you provision a server, and what for? | [18:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline no, see, here's the story : minigame (s.mg) is a bitcoin corp, raised like 40mn in current money via ipo. it is the owner of the game ; but it is very community oriented and so for instance it doesn't OWN the wiki. | [18:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline for freenode, neh ? | [18:48] |
| kline: | we wont expect you to host servers or anything as any kind of trade for using us | [18:49] |
| kline: | in fact, we'd actively discourage any kind of transactional support | [18:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | i didn't mean to imply that. | [18:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | unrelated question. so far there's three entirely unrelated questions here : 1. using freenode as irc backend for eulora ; 2. registering eulora with freenode as group ; and 3. did you need more servers ? | [18:50] |
| kline: | 1) yes, we'd be happy to try hosting you and see how it works out for the both of us | [18:50] |
| kline: | 2) registering as a project would be a pre-req for this, in my opinion | [18:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah ok. | [18:51] |
| shinohai: | Will do mircea_popescu when you get the particulars sorted here :) | [18:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | ty shinohai | [18:51] |
| kline: | 3) i dont think we'd ever turn down a new server, but that is best arranged between infra directly, and it would be important to understand that we have ways we like servers to be run - by us, and typically for long periods | [18:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | i had no intention of managing it myself. | [18:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | what is infra here ? | [18:52] |
| kline: | our infrastructure team | [18:52] |
| kline: | the staff is loosely divided between infrastructure, community, groups, and management teams | [18:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | ok, but not really actionable for me. what do i do ? | [18:52] |
| kline: | https://freenode.net/support is the best place to read for server donations | [18:53] |
| kline: | it details how we run things, what we expect and give in return, and how to get the ball rolling | [18:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright. to explain -- we're in the process of standing up a hoster. it is of no consequence to stick another server in the rack. | [18:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | is "long periods" what, a year ? five ? "until the box croaks" ? | [18:54] |
| kline: | id expect probably a year | [18:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | alrighty. so basically, you'll get email as per above and we'll see where we go. still a lengthy chunk of time before anything specific happens re 1. | [18:56] |
| kline: | most of our agreements are open ended but we'd be disappointed if they ended soon, but it has happened in the past if we've had any kind of issues between ourselves and the hosters or its just not working out for any reason | [18:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah, makes sense. | [18:56] |
| kline: | for what its worth, on both registration and actually setting up to use, we're probably quite quick to action | [18:56] |
| kline: | registration can be complete tonight, and depending on your own infrastructure shape, we can get any config requirements on our end sorted out in a few days | [18:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | it'd be tested on the test environment first anyway, so it's never going to be time-pressured if anyoine can help it. | [18:57] |
| kline: | sure | [18:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | cool. | [18:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | and if you feel like giving it a spin... | [18:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | just build and drop your key. | [18:58] |
| kline: | its a bit late local time, and i have university in the morning, but ill be sure to try it at some point | [19:09] |
| kline: | where can i read more? | [19:09] |
| Gaxaro: | diana_coman im done | [19:18] |
| Gaxaro: | i think i am standing next to you | [19:18] |
| Gaxaro: | you're foxy? | [19:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline no rush, it's gonna be here tomorrow too. see prolly eulorum.org | [19:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | o gee whiz, wiki got totally defaced! | [19:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman im thinking, the recipe window should probably pop above the details window not underneath. do we even have stack control like that ? | [19:23] |
| Gaxaro: | diana_coman i will trade you whenever you're ready | [19:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | kline in any case, http://www.eulorum.org/Installing_Eulora is what you prolly need ; maybe also http://www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup | [19:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | Gaxaro may have to be tomorrow, i think it's late where she lives. | [19:28] |
| Gaxaro: | Ah okay | [19:30] |
| hanbot: | http://www.eulorum.org/Eulora << restored btw | [19:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | a nice! | [19:32] |
| hanbot: | was someone keeping a backup of this thing or w/e? | [19:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | well wiki software should backup automatically no ? | [19:32] |
| hanbot: | i'm not too fond of that "should" | [19:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm. | [19:36] |
| lobbes: | q3 billz are out for auctionbot service http://lobbesblog.com/billing/2017/q3/ and deeded http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-02#1719316 | [23:14] |
| lobbes: | also to note that going forward, all BTC payments will be done through the deedbot wallet service. If someone wants to pay via that method, let me know and I'll generate the invoice | [23:16] |
| lobbes: | ecu payments, of course, will continue to be accepted as normal | [23:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | cool | [23:31] |
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