| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (17.5619078933 hours) | [00:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (16.5616709608 hours) | [01:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (15.5614206517 hours) | [02:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (14.5613739556 hours) | [03:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (13.5612734558 hours) | [04:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (12.5610155897 hours) | [05:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (11.5609128786 hours) | [06:17] |
| diana_coman: | if it's of any interest: foxy sees 8-30 cft for small wwb | [06:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suppose your recipe list has to turn into a bunch of wiki pages now huh. so people can add such reports. | [06:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyone feel like doing the conversion ? | [06:46] |
| diana_coman: | bundle 6330q -> 11 wwb 610q | [06:48] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, cookbook now kind of outdated, sigh | [06:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | hey, it had a good run | [06:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | year+ or so | [06:49] |
| diana_coman: | I guess so; one might also think the new numbers are not entirely unrelated to those previous values, so there might still be some value in having them there as they are now, too | [06:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | they're certainly not unrelated. game expanded, didn't change. | [06:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | and this is generally the idea going forward : eulora will become more complex, but not substantially different. like say a polygon interpolating a circle : as a hexagon it is different from its octogonal form, but it still interpolates the same circle. | [06:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | corners change, edges change, but something stays the same. | [06:53] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (10.5607009958 hours) | [07:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Minigame announced at some point (I meanwhile misplaced the reference) that should BTC/USD ratios increase significantly, it will float the ECu, but by a degree of magnitude and through the procedure of " <<< does ANYONE know the original, 2014ish reference for this ? i can't fucking find it. danielpbarron ? anyone got it saved ? | [08:12] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (9.56053385611 hours) | [08:17] |
| danielpbarron: | mircea_popescu, http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-01-14.log.html#t14:40:19 | [08:23] |
| lobbesbot: | Logged on 2016-01-14 14:40:19: <mircea_popescu> also as a point of policy, since we're talking about this : i intend that after bitcoin crosses 1k again, once it looks stable-ly there, to devalue ECU/bitcoin such that each btc buys 10mn ecu instead of 1. as part of this, everyone will receive a sum of cash equal to 9x the sum of their cash and the q-adjusted market-value of all things they own. so in this sense, both training and keeping above-mkt value | [08:23] |
| danielpbarron: | i was always curious if magic bags and golden goose also will have adjusted outputs | [08:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha! tyvm! | [08:28] |
| danielpbarron: | is the promise that they will always pay euloran poverty welfare, or that they pay out potential fortunes if held long enough | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | and yes they will. making a statement re all this now, so will cover all angles. | [08:29] |
| danielpbarron: | oh, nice! | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron they were sold not given away. auction and all ; with discussions of free btc/eur rate etc. | [08:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, the bags were given away, but anyway. | [08:36] |
| danielpbarron: | i know i received the bag and bid on the goose with the idea that they would pay out a certain amount of BTC | [08:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. | [08:42] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (8.56029137306 hours) | [09:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (7.56004845944 hours) | [10:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.55999209167 hours) | [11:17] |
| hanbot: | !Qbid 17 6.5mn | [11:18] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 6.5mn from hanbot overbidding danielpbarron Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.53918527306 hours) | [11:18] |
| danielpbarron: | !Qbid 17 6.825mn | [11:33] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 6.825mn from danielpbarron overbidding hanbot Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (6.29432353222 hours) | [11:33] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (5.55981038528 hours) | [12:17] |
| lobbesbot: | Post from dianacoman: The open sores of monkey code <http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/02/18/the-open-sores-of-monkey-code/> | [12:34] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (4.5595396525 hours) | [13:17] |
| lobbes: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-18.log.html#t11:46:31 << I'm trying to grok the implications in terms of my building out an items database; does this mean each individual player has a unique BOM for each craftable item? | [13:18] |
| lobbesbot: | Logged on 2017-02-18 11:46:31: <mircea_popescu> i suppose your recipe list has to turn into a bunch of wiki pages now huh. so people can add such reports. | [13:18] |
| lobbes: | I'm using the assumption of "bps = your recipe for a given item", but is that correct? I wasn't sure from what I could glean from wiki | [13:24] |
| danielpbarron: | lobbes, for your purposes nothing has changed | [13:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | lobbes yes, but for quantities only | [14:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | doesn't affect you | [14:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | as far as you're concerned, the item list hasn't changed, and the base values haven't changed, so you're golden. | [14:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (3.55943738694 hours) | [14:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (2.55931134556 hours) | [15:17] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (1.55929117306 hours) | [16:17] |
| diana_coman: | hm, foxy gets 8-10 lbn for tiny tpt; that makes a bundle > 2k q and with that she gets....q5 tpt ffs; and about 12 of them, not exactly a pile | [16:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | huh check that out. | [16:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 11 * 20 | [16:36] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 11 * 20 = 220 | [16:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 0.05 * 12 * 159 | [16:37] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 0.05 * 12 * 159 = 95.40000000000002 | [16:37] |
| diana_coman: | all of a sudden bits of nothing are NOT that valuable anymore it would seem to me | [16:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 95.4 / 220 | [16:38] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 95.4 / 220 = 0.43363636363636365 | [16:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | lmao why the hell does it round to 6 | [16:38] |
| danielpbarron: | about the \% loss i saw on everything i've tried so far | [16:38] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, hm, I actually had some gain on making poccs and ma | [16:39] |
| danielpbarron: | over or under craft? | [16:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | i got butchered on consen ;/ | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | and the small claim earlier gave foxy 600+ q iirc | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | got butchered on a cons too , mircea_popescu, there is that | [16:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron i can't fucking tell. 4mn worth of bundle, like 2.5k q | [16:39] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, technically speaking oc since I got numina to show for it | [16:40] |
| danielpbarron: | you can get numina on an undercraft | [16:40] |
| danielpbarron: | or at least, could before this update | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | o.O how is that? | [16:40] |
| danielpbarron: | maybe ~you~ can't | [16:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah there is that yes. overcrafted. | [16:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | well anyway. i did get nums | [16:40] |
| diana_coman: | numina on an undercraft? how is that danielpbarron ? | [16:40] |
| danielpbarron: | diana_coman, maybe has something to do with not being the highest skill in everything | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | or what do you call undercraft as I suspect you have a def of your own | [16:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno about that. i don't think you can get numina with uc | [16:41] |
| diana_coman: | I consider undercraft anything where output > input calculated as qabv , all of it | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | and I really don't see how can one get numina with uc (unless it IS a toil which makes numina, ofc) | [16:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | no because pops can be oc. | [16:42] |
| danielpbarron: | i think i see undercraft as when the output quality is greater than the input quality, although that's not as straight forward to measure anymore | [16:42] |
| diana_coman: | ah, that explains it danielpbarron ; thinking in quality terms it can be I suppose | [16:43] |
| diana_coman: | but input quality of what exactly? of bp? of bundle? | [16:43] |
| danielpbarron: | bundle | [16:43] |
| danielpbarron: | whether it is under or over is determined by the blueprint | [16:43] |
| danielpbarron: | what you call undercraft is the extreme case where the difference is so great that no numina comes out, or perhaps has such a low chance of coming out that you don't see it | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, remember earlier discussion? I make the difference output as bp output, so loot is not included | [16:44] |
| diana_coman: | basically input -> output + loot, where loot might be 0 | [16:44] |
| danielpbarron: | and it's not so straight forward as output + loot | [16:45] |
| danielpbarron: | it's a probability field where the number of units per click isn't necessarily an integer | [16:45] |
| diana_coman: | previous discussion I mean this: http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-06.log.html#t21:05:06 | [16:46] |
| lobbesbot: | Logged on 2017-02-06 21:05:06: <mircea_popescu> so which is the overbuild ? if bundle q > enum q ? | [16:46] |
| danielpbarron: | i have done crafts where i increased the value from bundle to product and still got numina | [16:46] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, do you mean that output varies? o.O ; loot I mean there precisely as a variable quantity, yes | [16:46] |
| danielpbarron: | still lost value overall when factoring in the loss of value in blueprint and container | [16:46] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, sure, the input is NOT only bundle | [16:46] |
| diana_coman: | input is bundle, bp, decay, whatever else goes IN | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | so exactly, you WERE still overcrafting, hence getting numina | [16:47] |
| diana_coman: | also: NO numina is not in itself a guarantee that you did not do oc | [16:47] |
| danielpbarron: | is this foxy the player talking or diana the coder talking? | [16:48] |
| danielpbarron: | is over/under craft even a thing? from server's point of view. are there different things that get triggered based on if something was an overcraft or not? | [16:49] |
| danielpbarron: | or is it just a naming convention players use | [16:49] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, foxy talking | [16:49] |
| danielpbarron: | under your definition of undercrafting i'm not sure you could ever be sure you undercrafted something | [16:50] |
| diana_coman: | you mean you assume hidden inputs, or why? | [16:51] |
| danielpbarron: | you say "no numina" is not in itself a guarantee | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | to my mind crafting or building or whatevs is a process: something goes in aka inputs, something comes out aka result+loot if "outputs" is a bit misleading | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | well yes danielpbarron because I did not see it as being "=" hence the "->" | [16:51] |
| diana_coman: | considering the pops, it's quite clear that loot varies | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | on the other hand, results seem to be stable or at least they were until this last update as far as I could see | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | as in: making cft ALWAYS resulted in 1 cft | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | sometimes there could be loot as numina or even as MORE cft | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | but never 2 cft in the firt container slot basically | [16:53] |
| diana_coman: | so: the only way to know if oc or uc is to compare qabv of input and qabv of result | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman basically you call loot anything that may show up that wasn't on the bp ? | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | and it's a very straightforward comparison with the advantage that it's clearly defined, can be done upfront etc | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, exactly, yes | [16:54] |
| diana_coman: | those new bps are a bit confusing in this sense, I'm not yet sure I figured them out | [16:54] |
| danielpbarron: | i'm not sure loot is a useful word in that sense. the extra cft is really part of the first pile if you look at the entire craft run as a whole. at your skill level and with certain blueprint q and bundle q you get a certain percent of output as product and the rest as numina. and the final numbers are rarely integers | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, uhm, trouble with that danielpbarron is that at same skill and same q in sometimes I GOT extra cft, sometimes I did not get it | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | so then how does that work? | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | and I mean it over runs | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | not single craft | [16:56] |
| danielpbarron: | it works because there is an average over the whole run | [16:56] |
| diana_coman: | my experience rather contradicts this hypothesis | [16:56] |
| danielpbarron: | idk how you can know when you got "extra" product in a run | [16:58] |
| danielpbarron: | sure it varies by some \% | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | simple: I set out to make 100 cft, it ate 100 bps, I ended up with 102 cft | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | or I end up with 100 cft | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | never ever with 99 cft for that matter | [16:59] |
| danielpbarron: | i was clocking in at around 92\% product to numina | [16:59] |
| danielpbarron: | 100 cft isn't really much of a sample size | [16:59] |
| diana_coman: | I did not mean the numbers here as sample size, just as example re "how can you know when you get extra in a run" | [17:00] |
| danielpbarron: | why would you get less than 100? | [17:00] |
| diana_coman: | well, if the whole thing is as you say a proportion thing and non-integer etc why wouldn't you get less sometimes? as in: more numina and less cft? | [17:00] |
| danielpbarron: | it's in terms of the value, so this is accounted for in the quality | [17:01] |
| danielpbarron: | pre-update i was getting 92\% of output ~value~ in product | [17:01] |
| diana_coman: | for all and any combinations? o.O | [17:01] |
| danielpbarron: | no but a lot of stuff came to that number i think | [17:01] |
| danielpbarron: | it's in the log | [17:01] |
| danielpbarron: | or wait, was the the profit number | [17:02] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, so then what sort of thing is this "a lot of stuff came to that number but not all" | [17:02] |
| diana_coman: | I would suspect you were basically building the runs to get that, as you were fine with that | [17:02] |
| danielpbarron: | no yeah that was about right i think | [17:02] |
| danielpbarron: | well anyway, even if the number was 1\% that wouldn't mean you get less product than blueprints | [17:03] |
| danielpbarron: | just would mean the quality is super low and you got a ton of numina | [17:03] |
| diana_coman: | my point is: if you are SURE to get as many products as blueprints, that is result or call it guaranteed result | [17:04] |
| diana_coman: | I saw q changing based on bp q and bundle q (and those were interchangeable by the way - how does your model account for that? | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | q of course changes qabv and it fits my model just fine | [17:05] |
| danielpbarron: | is undercraft as you call it even supposed to exist? is it an imbalance meant to be nerfed in a future update? | [17:05] |
| diana_coman: | my understanding is that one of oft-repeated eulora concepts is that things are balanced in the sense that nothing is created out of thin air | [17:06] |
| danielpbarron: | isn't that's what's happening when someone undercrafts? | [17:06] |
| diana_coman: | so this means there is some consideration of what goes into something and what comes out, but obviously this doesn't seem to be very liniar or straightforward | [17:06] |
| diana_coman: | according to s.mg sheets it's not really | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | when I oc I tend to lose money on most runs | [17:07] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't think we're doing a whole lot of it yet | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | I might make it up on a pop | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | but otherwise I tend to lose money basically | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | when I uc , I make money by definition but that to my mind simply balances the other | [17:08] |
| danielpbarron: | and if we all tried to undercraft for long enough we'd run out of a way to do it and be forced to overcraft something? | [17:08] |
| diana_coman: | I quite suspect so: for one thing if we all undercraft it means that we get higher q stuff, right? | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | so then we run out of low q stuff, no? | [17:09] |
| danielpbarron: | how do you figure that? | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, let's see | [17:09] |
| diana_coman: | bv in general is equal to bundle value at 100, right? | [17:10] |
| danielpbarron: | that's counter intuitive because you get higher quality from overcrafting | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | hm, not really | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | we have evidence that q of bundle and q of bp are interchangeable in terms of how they influence output q, do we agree? | [17:11] |
| danielpbarron: | what do you mean interchangeable | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | if I use bundle q 3 and bp q 150 I get the same output q as when I use bundle q 150 and bp q 3 | [17:12] |
| diana_coman: | iirc mircea tested this repeatedly | [17:13] |
| diana_coman: | but you are actually right a bit earlier - I got confused and it's the other way around (to same effect though): so we use high q stuff to undercraft and we get low q stuff; then we run out of high q stuff, no? | [17:14] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Opening: 4.5mn Highest Bid: 6.825mn Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (0.559058811111 hours) | [17:17] |
| danielpbarron: | no it is overcrafting that decrases values overall | [17:17] |
| danielpbarron: | even if in a per-click basis you may be doing what gets you higher quality | [17:18] |
| danielpbarron: | like you want a higher q product, but in the process have to degrade even higher quality ingredients | [17:18] |
| danielpbarron: | in the all undercraft world, we'd run out of blueprints | [17:19] |
| danielpbarron: | wouldn't get numina anymore, blueprints would come out lower and lower quality, making it harder and harder to undercraft | [17:19] |
| danielpbarron: | and in all overcraft world, all value gets shredded into numina eventually | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | well, it's easier to undercraft with low q bundle and high q bp, hence my initial statement that one uses low q items to make high q ones and then runs out of low q items | [17:20] |
| danielpbarron: | i guess it's no one thing you "run out of" | [17:20] |
| diana_coman: | undercraft means no numina by definition basically, yes | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | and yes, it's a simplification this "running out of X " - basically it's a system that tends towards a balanced state | [17:21] |
| diana_coman: | and to do so it provides incentives for whatever it is it's missing basically | [17:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman yeah that's the problem though... suppose you get 9 cft. well... how much of it is loot by your definition ? | [17:43] |
| hanbot: | !Qbid 17 7.2mn | [17:45] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17: 54 AW q 226 Heard: 7.2mn from hanbot overbidding danielpbarron Ending: 2017-02-18 22:51:03 UTC (0.0981986211111 hours) | [17:45] |
| lobbesbot: | AUCTION # 17 has ENDED: 54 AW q 226 SOLD to hanbot for 7.2mn coppers. Attn: mircea_popescu | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | wd sniping :D | [17:51] |
| hanbot: | incidentally given how lobbesbot works this'd seem the "correct" way to bid, ultimately with whatever automated bidder up to x amt. mebbe there'd be interest in extending closure times if lastbid <= 10 mins or w/e | [17:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah that's not a bad idea. | [18:02] |
| lobbes: | if folx want that, I can make that happen | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah, pm for autobid up to x, and a +10 mins if last bid within 10 mins function | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | that way people will create shorter auctions i expect. | [18:04] |
| lobbes: | k, added to the ol' todo list | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | ty! | [18:06] |
| lobbes: | !QRSS eulora2 | [18:06] |
| lobbesbot: | lobbes: 2017-02-18T14:18:37+0000: Eulora Special Playable Character List <http://trilema.com/2017/eulora-special-playable-character-list/> | [18:06] |
| lobbes: | added 'trolloludens/feed/' to the announce (finally) | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah nice | [18:07] |
| lobbes: | I gotta add hanbot and danielpbarron's blogz too | [18:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeh can't hurt. and diana_coman 's | [18:07] |
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