| alikim: | what these recipes for http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/MiningRecipes.txt? they create laims out of crafting? | [00:56] |
| Birdman: | mining recipies are the enumerations | [00:59] |
| alikim: | ah I see thanks | [01:00] |
| alikim: | what's the simplest crafting recipe? All I found requires buying some materials I've never seen, is there something I can craft out of what I find? | [01:02] |
| Birdman: | you'd need blueprints but yes lots, go do the eulorian cookbook on diana's page and go to recipies for craft table | [01:07] |
| alikim: | kk | [01:13] |
| Birdman: | probably the most simple would be coarse frangible threads, cft, which takes 3 grass and blueprints | [01:14] |
| alikim: | where do you get blueprints? also craft? | [01:15] |
| alikim: | I mean all blueprints are craftable or is there another source for them? | [01:19] |
| Birdman: | well they are looted from the considerations, which are crafted in the bouqinism line | [01:22] |
| Birdman: | they used to be looted from overcraft while crafting w/e | [01:22] |
| Birdman: | i actually have a ton of cft bps low quality that are probably perfect for you, i'd sell them for a deal to start you off | [01:23] |
| Birdman: | i've alot of low q bps you could make good use of in fact, if you're interested ill sell you any and all for their q100 base value | [01:24] |
| danielpbarron: | also has lots of low quality blueprints | [01:28] |
| alikim: | ok thanks I'll kepp it in mind when it comes to it | [01:34] |
| alikim: | considerations are containers? | [01:34] |
| diana_coman: | no alikim, considerations are blueprints for making little bits of nothing AND looting other blueprints | [02:18] |
| diana_coman: | I think there is one in the cookbook already, look at the one for making maculature | [02:19] |
| diana_coman: | that's a consideration | [02:19] |
| diana_coman: | alikim> what these recipes for http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/MiningRecipes.txt? they create laims out of crafting? <- oh, those are enums for *large* claims basically, the more complicated ones, so really not the thing to start with, in any case | [02:20] |
| alikim: | this crafting system can not be self conained, can it? there must be an injection of something from outside to make things work, something you can only buy | [02:29] |
| diana_coman: | it IS self-contained | [02:30] |
| Birdman: | enought things have been magic'd into game by now im sure, but everything loops back into itself by now im sure | [02:31] |
| Birdman: | if you overcraft anyways | [02:31] |
| Birdman: | if we all somehow found a way to undercraft enough of a certain thing it'd probably make things run out eventually | [02:31] |
| diana_coman: | alikim, that is one of the main principles of eulora, that everything can be created by players and is self-contained | [02:31] |
| diana_coman: | to start things off there have been items offered, but that is really *just* to start things off | [02:32] |
| diana_coman: | but yes, the crafting system is complex for sure | [02:32] |
| alikim: | ok thanks | [02:32] |
| diana_coman: | I kind of keep on my list of to do stuff a graph for it, but haven't got around to do it yet, feel free to do it yourself if it's something you want | [02:32] |
| alikim: | I made a php/sql based crafting system just for fun for GW2 recently, if I could lay my hands on your data in sql format that'd be great, I could probably rework that one and make it public. | [02:34] |
| alikim: | GW2 have about 60k items and 10k recipies | [02:35] |
| diana_coman: | lol; that cookbook is made by foxy from what is in the game. | [02:39] |
| diana_coman: | the bot has an option to spit out the bps in csv format and then a small python script goes through them and makes the html files | [02:39] |
| diana_coman: | out of curiosity why would php/sql really be needed in fact? | [02:40] |
| alikim: | well, what I have now looks like this, with all the components clikable so you can find your way around and figure out what is made of what and what makes profitable craft: http://i.imgur.com/CfrTFs2.jpg | [02:40] |
| diana_coman: | as for number of items and recipes, they are growing quite quickly as it is, that's really not a worry I have | [02:41] |
| alikim: | so if I could put your data in there that'd be usefull | [02:41] |
| diana_coman: | looks pretty much like my cookbook, no? | [02:41] |
| diana_coman: | http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/index.html | [02:41] |
| diana_coman: | did you get to look at that? | [02:41] |
| diana_coman: | and in eulora getting data is part of the game as it were, really | [02:42] |
| alikim: | ok | [02:42] |
| diana_coman: | also, there is this euporium bot in here that spits some info,hmm | [02:42] |
| diana_coman: | &item sa | [02:42] |
| euporium: | Remarkable Flotsam Ennumeration cat: Mining Techniques base value: 182076, 11 other items match | [02:42] |
| diana_coman: | base value in eulora is fixed | [02:43] |
| diana_coman: | for each item I mean | [02:44] |
| alikim: | I'm working on my bot currently, once it's running I'll have time to write a parser your site | [02:45] |
| Birdman: | hey if you make any kool windows stuff keep me in the loop! | [02:47] |
| alikim: | I'm done with the interface, just need to add a button that prints my items for sale from the storage to post here | [02:49] |
| alikim: | that's the last one I made for claim and craft table containers: http://i.imgur.com/4l5kzio.jpg | [02:53] |
| alikim: | claims are missing icons though | [02:53] |
| diana_coman: | a parser for my site? o.o | [03:12] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [03:12] |
| diana_coman: | alikim why not get the info directly from game if you are after that? my site is based on foxy's knowledge, not as if it was complete or anything | [03:13] |
| alikim: | diana: the difference is that my program actually build crafting trees, you site has separated recipies, it also does recursive search and drags prices alone so you can see which part of the tree is cheaper to cratf to to buy on the market | [03:31] |
| alikim: | as to sharing data - I'm not saying you should share it, but normally if you decide to share your data you share DB as people do in eve online for examle | [03:31] |
| alikim: | peple build their own interfaces to DB that's thenormal practice, not that I'm asking for something unusual | [03:32] |
| alikim: | I ofc rather use already collected data that to start from scrath duh, but since you don't share your DB I'll have to parse you web site page by page | [03:34] |
| alikim: | unless I can access all blueprints in game and take that data from server messages? | [03:36] |
| alikim: | I think I can access only those I have | [03:36] |
| diana_coman: | alikim in eulora crafting is NOT a tree | [03:41] |
| diana_coman: | it's a graph, sometimes recursive at thta | [03:41] |
| diana_coman: | it's not MY db | [03:41] |
| diana_coman: | I don't have a db, lol | [03:41] |
| diana_coman: | what do you mean by "drags prices alone"? | [03:42] |
| diana_coman: | market atm is mainly otc so no data there, but that would be cool, of course | [03:42] |
| diana_coman: | there is the plan to have something in game, but not there yet; if you extend the bot with trading stuff, it will certainly be useful | [03:43] |
| diana_coman: | by all means, go ahead and make your own interface, the more the better | [03:44] |
| alikim: | where the data for those recipies comes from and how it ends up on your site? | [03:45] |
| alikim: | you manually write it down to html pages? | [03:46] |
| diana_coman: | alikim> peple build their own interfaces to DB that's thenormal practice, not that I'm asking for something unusual <- sigh "normal practice" - this is not an argument or a reason or whatevs, don't care what is "normal" | [03:46] |
| diana_coman: | no, I already explained | [03:46] |
| alikim: | you said it's gathered by foxy bot, what does it mean? | [03:47] |
| diana_coman: | a part of the bot reads the bps and spits them out in csv, then a python script parses that and makes the html | [03:47] |
| diana_coman: | it would be very cool and useful to have real trade data, but we are not there yet, so there are no prices to speak of | [03:48] |
| diana_coman: | base values, yes | [03:48] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose you could order by that, should be good | [03:48] |
| alikim: | I see | [03:49] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, I suppose the csv file would be what you are trying to get, at least to some extent | [03:49] |
| diana_coman: | and yeah, I can share that, it's the same info as on the website anyway | [03:49] |
| diana_coman: | will add it in there with a link later today | [03:50] |
| alikim: | yeah to make those accorted cvs usefull they need to be put into a DB ofc | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | neah | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | but suit yourself | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | they are not assorted csv, lol | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | lol! | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | it's one single csv ! | [03:50] |
| diana_coman: | python script reads that and makes multiple html pages | [03:51] |
| alikim: | can I have that cvs? | [03:51] |
| diana_coman: | as said above: <diana_coman> will add it in there with a link later today | [03:51] |
| alikim: | coll thanks | [03:52] |
| diana_coman: | np | [03:52] |
| alikim: | by prices I meant player prices since you don't have an auction house | [03:53] |
| diana_coman: | so you'd have to take those from player's stores or from chan | [03:53] |
| alikim: | yes | [03:53] |
| diana_coman: | that would really be a useful thing indeed | [03:53] |
| diana_coman: | updated cookbook with new recipes and link to download it as a csv file: http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/index.html | [05:20] |
| diana_coman: | alikim and anyone interested ^ | [05:20] |
| diana_coman: | ftr the turning wheel bp lists "bandar toolkit" as ingredient which is not entirely correct: it's the bundles for bandar toolkit the bp takes, not the actual toolkits themselves | [05:21] |
| diana_coman: | it's a bit of a weird thing that as not sure what sense it makes for a recipe to take bundles instead of just the ingredients as such (bundle is nothing more than ingredients glued together anyway), but there it is | [05:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | waves at the logs | [07:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim most of the bps i gave you, you should be able to feed on your finds. | [07:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | like the cft, uses grass. and then the bct you have uses that cft. etc. | [07:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-04-20.log.html#t06:29:36 <<< mwahahahaha. "oh a game much better than project entropia couldn't exist. wait. WHAT?!?!?!" | [07:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-04-20.log.html#t06:32:00 << leaving aside the obvious example of official minigame auctions for / in support of new content, there's for instance the introduction of the ordinary bundles at electron's shop. | [07:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | obviously the economic circle from claim to craft table to claim again can function on itself. you can make those bundles yourself, out of your own materials, for a lower or higher quality. you can also mine other claims than the ones electron has bundles for. | [07:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | nevertheless, the electron bundles allowed the players to step up the volume of game items at their own rate, which allowed the game to grow without requiring either grinding (ie, time inflation) or breaking the economy (ie, copper inflation). | [07:30] |
| alikim: | what is electron bundles? | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | in fact total goods in game (bv) jumped from 1845 on Feb 29th. this is mostly on account of pent-up demand for goods that wasn't satisfiable on the basis of player work and was driving up prices. | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim electron (the npc merchant) is offering ordinary etc bundles (ie, mining stuff) at a fixed price. | [07:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | so basically - eulora economy is a self-sustaining cycle, which players can step up or down to accomodate their play-volume. | [07:33] |
| alikim: | I don't have the game on me right now, but you mean you can buy all mining resources at tt price with electron? | [07:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | no. | [07:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | in order to mine something, you have to first explore to get a claim, and then in that claim you put a bundle and click | [07:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | for SOME claims, such as ordinary, electron offers pre-made bundles, of fixed quality, at a (small) premium. | [07:34] |
| alikim: | I put a bit | [07:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | and that bit is the bundle, for tiny. | [07:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | for smalls you make the bundle out of 1-7 cft | [07:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim you have to appreciate, claim size matters. a tiny gets a bundle nominally worth 11 coppers - if higher quality like the stuff that's been trading here of late, maybe as high as 30 or even 50 copper. | [07:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | a small claim, however, receives up to 7 cdg, that's nominally 7 * 180 = 1260 copper, though threads as high as 1k quality have been found, meaning 12k. | [07:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | an ordinary claim however has a bundle in the 10-20k range as a base value. | [07:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | obviously results depend on the sizes involved. | [07:39] |
| alikim: | in eu there are no activities that allow you to extract resources with no investment, except sweating but sweat has close to zero tt value. this prevents players from just draining money out of the game. what stops all playes here from extracting resources barehanded, selling them to tt and withdrawing money? that's why I'm surprised it's a self sustained ecomony | [07:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | nothing, really. go ahead! | [07:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | i prefer to spend minigame's advertising budget on the players. | [07:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | from what i recall entropia took a rather different approach. | [07:42] |
| alikim: | in eu the economy can only function if there is a continuous cash flow into the game that is split between the company and the player who profit, that's basically what decay is for | [07:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [07:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | entropia is a very poorly managed project. | [07:43] |
| alikim: | here you spawn resources from the ground for free and pay realmoney for it | [07:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh, and since we're doing "i can't believe this" : there is actually no cap on the loot you can get in eulora. | [07:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | you could in principle get one billion copper's worth out of your next tiny. | [07:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | in practice iirc the record hit was something like 50k tpt out of one tiny, last year. | [07:44] |
| alikim: | I'm just trying to understand game's principles, I don't have any "i can't believe this" feelings really | [07:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | a ok. | [07:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-04-20.log.html#t06:35:38 << eulora is currently at... /me goes to check | [07:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | hmmm lobbes any chance bot reads the actual linked line ? | [07:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | 1239 total items, 403 recipes. so not QUITE GW2 as of yet. | [07:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | of course there's ~100 new items slated for delivery sometime this month, hopefully, and it has been growing more or less consistently at 50-100ish per month for a while now. so maybe one day! | [07:50] |
| diana_coman: | alikim> here you spawn resources from the ground for free and pay realmoney for it <- mk, lol | [07:50] |
| diana_coman: | please go ahead | [07:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | check it out diana_coman on the basis of simple comparison with his gw2 counts, it'd seem the game is 2\% / 4\% complete. | [07:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | which i think is actually not even all that far off! | [07:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | (obviously recipe ratio will be higher in eulora than anything else - because anything else doesn't believe into this "players can make EVERYTHING".) | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | lol; and if we are at it: is it "normal" yet? doing what everyone else is doing because! | [07:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's not normal in that sense. it is however normal in the other sense, normative. | [07:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | scoala normala de fete numarul eulora. | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | bwahahaha | [07:52] |
| diana_coman: | if it weren't that common (ha, normal!), I'd still find it funny that people consider that one should do what everyone else is doing, but just call it something else basically | [07:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | nobody got fired for having sex on the job | [07:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | no wait. nobody got an orgasm out of buying ibm. | [07:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | no... that's not right either... | [07:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | something something teamwork something something market. there we go. | [07:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | which reminds me : you should prolly translate that piece about the diana-money-bag and the taxi people. | [07:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman out of curiosity why would php/sql really be needed in fact? << well he has pre-existing tooling. but the good news is : sql can import csv and i'm sure your bot can spit it out also ? | [07:56] |
| diana_coman: | thing is: his tooling from what I see assumes that there are crafting *trees* | [07:56] |
| diana_coman: | as far as I know, eulora has crafting graphs with cycles | [07:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | so ? | [07:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh it'll break won't it | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | well, at the very least he would need to adapt them | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | I am all for using databases, sure, but you know when they are actually really needed | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | I did contemplate the option, but didn't find it yet needed | [07:57] |
| diana_coman: | but yes, one should be able to populate a db from a csv quite easily | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman i suppose there ARE actually willy-nilly some trees, on account of the fact that containers can't be put into containers | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | hence I put the csv on the site for anyone to download it and do whatever they want with them | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is driving me fucking nuts atm, and yes ima fix it as soon as fucking possible wtf bs is this | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | oh, *some* trees for sure, yeah | [07:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah well that's not how it works. | [07:58] |
| diana_coman: | heh, if the turning wheel actually used toolkits rather than toolkit bundles, that would even be a better thing | [07:59] |
| diana_coman: | some use for worn-out toolkits for once | [07:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | what i'm thinking of doing is, have a skill that will turn any container into its bundle. "repair" like. | [07:59] |
| diana_coman: | or that | [07:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | have a very expensive tool, and a bp, and you're good to go. | [07:59] |
| diana_coman: | anyway, if he actually makes some real-time trading info site, that's very cool | [08:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | for srs. | [08:00] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu> which reminds me : you should prolly translate that piece about the diana-money-bag and the taxi people. <- indeed, huh | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah it's seminal. | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | or whatever you call it when girls do it. | [08:02] |
| diana_coman: | abnormal!!11 | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [08:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | (the above being a nod to a great joke in i don't recall what movie in a college setting [that i only watched for the boobies], where the token strawman feminist proposes that the semester should be changed to ovester because wtf is with the patriarchy) | [08:03] |
| diana_coman: | bwahahaha | [08:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | ikr? | [08:04] |
| diana_coman: | I got the underlying idea although I didn't know about the film | [08:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | perfect line epitomizing the whole pile of crapolade. doesn't know nor does care about etymology, fixes problems by fixing names, all you want out of a shaman. magical thinking, entrenched ignorance, a splendor. | [08:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | prolly good to go for a govt job. | [08:05] |
| diana_coman: | nooo, an NGO! | [08:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | a right | [08:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman also, there is this euporium bot in here that spits some info,hmm << actually didn't i give out a sql bundle for that ? | [08:10] |
| diana_coman: | well you did , but not to me , lol | [08:11] |
| diana_coman: | poor foxy had to get them by herself : | [08:11] |
| alikim: | I'd like to have that too | [08:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-02-23.log.html#t23:59:01 << here we gp. | [08:13] |
| diana_coman: | it expired mircea_popescu | [08:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim I'm done with the interface, just need to add a button that prints my items for sale from the storage to post here << o yeah that'll be epic huh. | [08:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman dang, it did did it. | [08:14] |
| alikim: | you mean that dpaste link? | [08:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah but it expired apparently. | [08:16] |
| diana_coman: | maybe jurov or Azelphur can put it on the wiki or something | [08:16] |
| danielpbarron: | i think it was encrypted to Azelphur anyway | [08:16] |
| diana_coman: | ah, right | [08:16] |
| alikim: | ok what this bot does? prints prices? or blueprint ingrediants? | [08:17] |
| diana_coman: | which bot alikim ? | [08:17] |
| alikim: | the one you mentioned today | [08:17] |
| diana_coman: | euporium? | [08:18] |
| diana_coman: | &flotsam | [08:18] |
| euporium: | Error: "flotsam" is not a valid command. | [08:18] |
| diana_coman: | &item flotsam | [08:18] |
| euporium: | Small Flotsam Ennumeration cat: Mining Techniques base value: 8, 5 other items match | [08:18] |
| alikim: | or we talking about something else? what is that "sql bundle" about? | [08:19] |
| diana_coman: | read the logs where mp pointed? | [08:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim some people made euporium bot, which prints base values of items, as above. they populated it on the basis of a sql dump i gave out back in feb. | [08:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah he's not much into reading logs huh. | [08:20] |
| alikim: | I read that log | [08:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | a ok | [08:20] |
| alikim: | made that bot for what? the game? this chat? what that sql dump was about? | [08:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim peple build their own interfaces to DB that's thenormal practice, not that I'm asking for something unusual << ironically, we're just coming to discover that this is actually the way to go, such as in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-14#1451355 | [08:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim they made it for chat and planning to extend it i think ? Azelphur ? jurov ? | [08:22] |
| diana_coman: | hm, 655 flotsam out of an ord (by hoe), q268, so that's 655*2.68*88 = 154.5k, not bad | [08:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | and the dump was that, item names, categories, base values. | [08:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | nice diana_coman | [08:22] |
| diana_coman: | but never saw such a thing out of bh ord | [08:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | which reminds me | [08:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 5 NTC, q 472, opening 1.5mn ; 5 NMGC, q 441, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 4 ALC, q 472, opening 1.2mn ; 2 AGC, q 461, 1mn heard danielpbarron ; 5 NGC, q 464, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 5 NLC, q 442, opening 1.5mn ; one stack lbn, q 233, 1.5mn diana_coman . eta 17:00 ART. | [08:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim unless I can access all blueprints in game and take that data from server messages? << you can, of course. but i imagine she'll give you a csv, you can use that, neh ? | [08:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | (ftr, the way diana built her site, iirc, is exactly from game, bot logged recipes it saw and dumped the data to csv) | [08:23] |
| alikim: | would ve been very useful to have that dump | [08:24] |
| diana_coman: | 1.2mn on the 4 alc, 1.5mn on the 5nlc mircea_popescu | [08:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman wouldja send it to him ? | [08:24] |
| diana_coman: | the csv is already up on the website and he can download it! | [08:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | link ? | [08:25] |
| alikim: | mircea: how do I access all blueprints in game? | [08:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 5 NTC, q 472, opening 1.5mn ; 5 NMGC, q 441, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 4 ALC, q 472, 1.2mn heard diana_coman ; 2 AGC, q 461, 1mn heard danielpbarron ; 5 NGC, q 464, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 5 NLC, q 442, 1.5mn heard diana_coman ; one stack lbn, q 233, 1.5mn diana_coman . eta 17:00 ART. | [08:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim the way foxybot does it is you just show them to it | [08:25] |
| diana_coman: | I did put it in there, lol, main page, http://logs.minigame.bz/latest.log.html#t09:20:37 | [08:25] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, he can't access ALL blueprints in game, only those he has, sees, finds etc | [08:26] |
| alikim: | I got your file, thanks, I'm not talking about that | [08:26] |
| diana_coman: | that's the block as it were | [08:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman o.O why the heck is he asking if its there then | [08:26] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, I don't have the sql dump as it was encrypted with Azelphur's key | [08:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim : http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/recipes.csv | [08:26] |
| diana_coman: | he is asking about the sql dump I think | [08:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh. | [08:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | you know it's not actually DIFFERENT. | [08:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | same items , same base values. | [08:27] |
| diana_coman: | perhaps more items | [08:27] |
| diana_coman: | dunno | [08:27] |
| diana_coman: | not even sure it contained bps though as in: content of bps, what is written on them | [08:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | if that's the case still not terribly relevant to him - you have the ones that get crafted/traded anyway | [08:27] |
| diana_coman: | eh, he wants it ALL, can't fault him for that now | [08:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | well in time! | [08:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman that is correct, it did not contain bps in that sense. | [08:28] |
| alikim: | jsut asking if it exists publicly | [08:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim apparently not, turns out. | [08:29] |
| diana_coman: | I suppose it's also that my csv file has only content of bps, not bv as those are calculated by the script on the fly | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is what he intends to do also as i understand it ? | [08:29] |
| diana_coman: | I have no idea really | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's what i read anyway. | [08:30] |
| diana_coman: | I thought he meant prices as in prices people pay | [08:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh. well who the heck knows that ?! | [08:30] |
| diana_coman: | shrugs | [08:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah, i suppose the rub here is that he expects "normal", most games are so economically broken there's A TRUE PRICE for things. | [08:31] |
| diana_coman: | I'll patiently wait and see what he comes up with | [08:31] |
| diana_coman: | one *could* get some info from people's shops and from trades in chan I suppose | [08:31] |
| diana_coman: | what use is that might be a different story, but it can't hurt to try | [08:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman well if he makes a trade bot that collects price data that'd be pretty epic i think. | [08:32] |
| diana_coman: | yep, so good luck to him | [08:33] |
| diana_coman: | oh, alikim re base values, you know that the bv for resources are on the wiki too (on a single page, so probably easier to get out) | [08:44] |
| alikim: | yes thanks | [08:57] |
| alikim: | &item Widow's Whisp Tincture | [08:58] |
| euporium: | Widow's Whisp Tincture Recipe cat: Blueprints base value: 1146 | [08:58] |
| diana_coman: | base value of bps is 10\% of the base value of items - or so it has been figured out by players so far | [09:02] |
| alikim: | I know there is a list of all bps values but I lost it | [09:04] |
| alikim: | found it ;) | [09:04] |
| alikim: | &item The Neckerbocker | [09:09] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of The Neckerbocker | [09:09] |
| diana_coman: | o.o so my cookbook clearly has some bps that euporium doesn't know about huh | [09:12] |
| alikim: | daniel page also doesn't have it | [09:13] |
| alikim: | &item Supplication of Murky Delights | [09:13] |
| diana_coman: | weird; so look into the csv as it's there | [09:13] |
| diana_coman: | and as I said: the value of the blueprint will be just 10\% of the value of the item itself | [09:13] |
| alikim: | I'm looking for prices, your csv doesn't have them | [09:13] |
| alikim: | &item Supplication of Murky Delights | [09:14] |
| euporium: | Supplication of Murky Delights cat: Blueprints base value: 24828 http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Supplication-of-Murky-Delights.html | [09:14] |
| diana_coman: | ah, they are calculated by the script on the fly, so yes, not in the csv | [09:14] |
| alikim: | I know it's 10\% but still want to separate players insights from db output | [09:15] |
| diana_coman: | well then , treat the csv also as player insight | [09:15] |
| diana_coman: | basically there is only the euporium output that might reasonably be considered "db output", nothing else at all | [09:16] |
| diana_coman: | everything else is player insight | [09:16] |
| alikim: | &item Ensconced Rastrum | [09:17] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Ensconced Rastrum | [09:17] |
| alikim: | bitch | [09:17] |
| alikim: | ;) | [09:17] |
| diana_coman: | lol | [09:17] |
| alikim: | &item Basketcase Headdress | [09:26] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Basketcase Headdress | [09:26] |
| alikim: | &item Basketcase Headdress | [09:26] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Basketcase Headdress | [09:26] |
| alikim: | &item Mircea's Confused Scribblings on Tinkering | [09:30] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Mircea's Confused Scribblings on Tinkering | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | &item Mircea | [09:30] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Mircea | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | ahhaha | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | &item Foxy | [09:30] |
| euporium: | Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Tinkering cat: Books I base value: 17007 http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Foxy's-Dismal-Scribblings-on-Tinkering.html | [09:30] |
| diana_coman: | bwahahaha Foxy's better known, yo! | [09:31] |
| alikim: | &item coarse | [09:31] |
| euporium: | Coarse Cordage(CC) cat: Ingredients I base value: 3780, 8 other items match http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Coarse-Cordage.html | [09:31] |
| alikim: | &item Cheapest Wedding Ring | [09:32] |
| euporium: | Cheapest Wedding Ring(CWR) cat: ? base value: 6058 http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Cheapest-Wedding-Ring.html | [09:32] |
| alikim: | &item Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Building | [09:36] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Building | [09:36] |
| alikim: | &item Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Gathering | [09:36] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Gathering | [09:36] |
| alikim: | &item Black of Desspayr | [09:40] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Black of Desspayr | [09:40] |
| alikim: | &item Misshaped Ampoule | [09:41] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Misshaped Ampoule | [09:41] |
| alikim: | &item Pointedly Odorous Charcoal | [09:41] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Pointedly Odorous Charcoal | [09:41] |
| alikim: | &item Water of Anamnesia | [09:42] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Water of Anamnesia | [09:42] |
| alikim: | &item Various Ladle Handless | [09:43] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Various Ladle Handless | [09:43] |
| alikim: | &item Dazzling Gemstone Shards | [09:44] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Dazzling Gemstone Shards | [09:44] |
| alikim: | &item 21 Autographed Dagsgen Flags | [09:45] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of 21 Autographed Dagsgen Flags | [09:45] |
| alikim: | &item Autographed Dagsgen Flags | [09:45] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Autographed Dagsgen Flags | [09:45] |
| alikim: | &item Assorted Library Mitess | [09:47] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Assorted Library Mitess | [09:47] |
| alikim: | &item Worn Old Screens | [09:48] |
| euporium: | Worn Old Screens cat: Tools base value: 0 http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Worn-Old-Screens.html | [09:48] |
| danielpbarron: | http://danielpbarron.com/eulora-shop/ << new and improved shop page | [09:48] |
| diana_coman: | interesting approach re services; curious if it works | [09:51] |
| alikim: | &itemUnspeakable Livresque Horrorss | [09:52] |
| euporium: | Error: "itemUnspeakable" is not a valid command. | [09:52] |
| alikim: | &item Unspeakable Livresque Horrorss | [09:52] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Unspeakable Livresque Horrorss | [09:52] |
| alikim: | &item Unspeakable | [09:52] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Unspeakable | [09:52] |
| alikim: | &item Remembrance Tincture | [09:53] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Remembrance Tincture | [09:53] |
| alikim: | &itemVery Valuable Vapors | [09:54] |
| euporium: | Error: "itemVery" is not a valid command. | [09:54] |
| alikim: | &item Very Valuable Vapors | [09:54] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Very Valuable Vapors | [09:54] |
| alikim: | &item Ancient Stove Grimes | [09:55] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Ancient Stove Grimes | [09:55] |
| alikim: | &item Tinkerer's Petrified | [09:56] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Tinkerer's Petrified | [09:56] |
| alikim: | &item Tinkerer | [09:56] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Tinkerer | [09:56] |
| alikim: | &item Turning Wheel | [09:58] |
| euporium: | Turning Wheel cat: Tools base value: 0 http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Turning-Wheel.html | [09:58] |
| alikim: | &item nothing because I'm a stupid bot | [09:58] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of nothing because I'm a stupid bot | [09:58] |
| alikim: | ^^ | [09:58] |
| danielpbarron: | well you know even less.. | [10:00] |
| alikim: | rude | [10:00] |
| danielpbarron: | eulorum says i have cookies disabled and won't let me log in | [11:36] |
| alikim: | &item Mollusc Cheese | [12:17] |
| euporium: | Mollusc Cheese Doodle cat: Blueprints base value: 1570 | [12:17] |
| alikim: | diana: so all recipes in you file are for crafting items and they all require a blueprint with the same name that falls out of some consideration? | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | danielpbarron, I think it was mike_c admin on eulorum so maybe he has some idea on that | [12:21] |
| diana_coman: | alikim, blueprints have inconsistent names | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | so what you said is true *except* for bp name | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | have a look at the bps you have in your storage/inventory for that matter and you'll see what I mean | [12:22] |
| diana_coman: | &item Mollusc Cheese | [12:24] |
| euporium: | Mollusc Cheese Doodle cat: Blueprints base value: 1570 | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | &item Coarse | [12:24] |
| euporium: | Coarse Frangible Thread(CFT) cat: Ingredients I base value: 180, 8 other items match http://dianacoman.com/Eulora/Coarse-Frangible-Thread.html | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | hm | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | &item Blueprint | [12:24] |
| euporium: | I know nothing of Blueprint | [12:24] |
| diana_coman: | &item commission | [12:24] |
| euporium: | Bernet Franco Commission cat: Blueprints base value: 2134 | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | there alikim , the above two items are both bps, but one is a "doodle" while the other a "commission" | [12:25] |
| diana_coman: | items they make are Mollusc Cheese and Bernet Franco respectively | [12:25] |
| alikim: | I see thanks, so when you craft an mi an additional bp might pop up as well? | [12:27] |
| alikim: | just along with it | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | an mi? | [12:27] |
| alikim: | maculature is | [12:27] |
| diana_coman: | ah, yes | [12:27] |
| alikim: | how do you shred it into bits? | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | I have only one maculature bp (the name of the bp there is consideration basically and to make things worse there are different considerations that ALL make maculature) | [12:28] |
| diana_coman: | there is a shredding bp, where the maculature is the bundle for it basically | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | http://www.dianacoman.com/Eulora/Little-Bit-O-Nothings.html | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | so either directly from bps as the list says | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | or from the bundle ie maculature | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | guess it's quite confusing, huh | [12:29] |
| diana_coman: | actually that one there has basically a list of bp names, lol | [12:30] |
| alikim: | it's not a confusing concept but there is no explanation for it so yeah | [12:31] |
| diana_coman: | so they can be...patterns, sketches, methods, recipes, instructions (heh, see recursivity?), diagrams, designs, blueprints, layouts etc | [12:31] |
| alikim: | well for now I'm just trying to gather all data into one db reusing gw2 structure coz I'm lazy and don't want to rewrite recursive functions so... | [12:32] |
| diana_coman: | as long as it doesn't break it... | [12:33] |
| alikim: | if you initially don't include blueprints into the free it won't be recursive I guess | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | it's not only blueprints | [12:33] |
| diana_coman: | bandar toolkits are made in...bandar toolkits | [12:34] |
| diana_coman: | etc | [12:34] |
| alikim: | well "made in" is fine, every item might have a tool and a container for it | [12:34] |
| alikim: | decay on those per attampt can be added separately | [12:35] |
| diana_coman: | yeah, decay is fixed for each container as far as I saw until now at least | [12:38] |
| danielpbarron: | just noticed, the drudgery of tinkering doesn't list its ingredients | [14:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron a thanks, will look into it. | [14:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-04-20.log.html#t13:15:03 << this is a good move, as the 10\% isn't even universally true, just very common | [14:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-04-20.log.html#t13:31:07 << win! lol. | [14:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | euporium I know nothing of Black of Desspayr << these were added since feb so yeah, couldn't know them | [14:33] |
| euporium: | Error: "I" is not a valid command. | [14:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron eulorum says i have cookies disabled and won't let me log in << that's a new one, did it get resolved ? | [14:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim I see thanks, so when you craft an mi an additional bp might pop up as well? << nope this is not true. | [14:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | you get bouq numina is all. | [14:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | used to be the case you looted bps from oc craft, for the first year-ish. got changed. | [14:36] |
| danielpbarron: | nope, i cleared all my cookies, enabled all cookies, etc.. nothing worked | [14:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | ima dig mike. | [14:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim well "made in" is fine, every item might have a tool and a container for it << if you cut it at the explore-craft seam (ie, ignore the fact that slag is made out of sr and is used to make sr sort of thing) likely your first problem will be that stone adze is an ingredient in improved stone adze which can be turned into stone adze, which hasn't even been found yet. | [14:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | in other words cyclicity is not all that horrible yet. | [14:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron : the drudgery thing fixed, thanks for reporting. will be deployed wed. | [14:45] |
| diana_coman: | <mircea_popescu> alikim I see thanks, so when you craft an mi an additional bp might pop up as well? << nope this is not true. -> ??? | [14:45] |
| diana_coman: | he meant there when you craft maculature, which are crafted out of cons, so yes | [14:45] |
| diana_coman: | see the lines below that | [14:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh i guess | [14:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | right right. for some reason i thought he's shredding mi | [14:46] |
| diana_coman: | gentle reminder: server will come down in approx 40 minutes for planned maintenance | [15:26] |
| danielpbarron: | oh weird, that drudgery thing did something strange | [15:36] |
| danielpbarron: | got it on video | [15:36] |
| danielpbarron: | i tried to make the tinkering one anyway, going by the numbers on the other drugeries | [15:36] |
| danielpbarron: | instead of a bundle, it turned directly into a single petrified aspiration | [15:37] |
| danielpbarron: | no loot | [15:37] |
| danielpbarron: | not sure if it even damaged the wheel, didn't think to check that | [15:37] |
| danielpbarron: | that is, there was no loading bar for the craft | [15:37] |
| danielpbarron: | i don't think i even lost value | [15:38] |
| danielpbarron: | thing is worth 676k | [15:39] |
| danielpbarron: | yeah looks like it's worth exactly what the parts were that went in | [15:40] |
| danielpbarron: | didn't lose a blueprint either :) | [15:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron you lucky dog you. | [15:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | now don't do it again and i'm not going to have to fix it for you. | [15:40] |
| danielpbarron: | lol k | [15:40] |
| danielpbarron: | quality 676 aspiration over here | [15:41] |
| diana_coman: | some high aspirations there | [15:41] |
| danielpbarron: | there's not enough time before the update to even do it again, the remembrance tincture took like an hour to cook | [15:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | first mover advantage! | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | server back up | [16:17] |
| alikim: | you can make auction house based on a dedicated player's account (run by a trustworthy authority) and ingame whisper channel. first you whisper it with your action offer then you trade it for items, same with bids, you whisper it for a bid then trade for money. this bot will keep items and money in its storage and all the info in an externalfile | [19:17] |
| danielpbarron: | can it link up with an irc bot? | [19:21] |
| alikim: | mircea: yes gw2 also has items that serve as ingrediants for a better version of themselves, it's not a problem. for now I just want to have an interactive craft tree so I could quickly figure out what's crafted from what or what I can craft from materials I have. Player's markup, decay on tool and resolution for items that upgrade themselves can be added later | [19:22] |
| danielpbarron: | i have most tool decays on my wiki values page | [19:24] |
| danielpbarron: | they are at the top | [19:24] |
| alikim: | daniel: theoretically yes, since the game client can connect to the internet and communicate to w/e. I've no idea how these bots works. For me it stands to reason that you communicate with the auction house from inside the game though, because the auction house doesn't have to trust your word when you are bidding or offering, you actually need to transfer goods | [19:24] |
| danielpbarron: | all the auctions we do are honor system anyway | [19:25] |
| danielpbarron: | you could prolly make money just running an auction house come to think of it | [19:27] |
| danielpbarron: | and if you're gonna have you character standing around for that, you'd also want a general store bot | [19:28] |
| danielpbarron: | that just buys and sells automatically like the way Electron does | [19:28] |
| alikim: | the irc system you have atm doesn't need auction house, I'm talking about ingame AH that can record all trades, run statistics including markup on items, all the usual stuff. that AH doesn't need irc bots. I'd say these two options should not be mixed. | [19:28] |
| danielpbarron: | well i could put the stuff with the bot in-game and then a bot in this channel periodically mentions what auctions are running, reminding people to bid | [19:29] |
| danielpbarron: | plus I can check irc from anywhere; Eulora not so easy | [19:30] |
| alikim: | it will buy and sell automatically, but only pre-whispered bids and offers and after each trade put items into its storage | [19:30] |
| danielpbarron: | well you could have it automatically put coppers in the trade window based on what people put in there | [19:31] |
| danielpbarron: | just gotta offer a slightly better deal than electron | [19:31] |
| alikim: | a bot in this channel could whisper ingame AH for a list of aucioned items and post results here, as well as you can do it ingame | [19:31] |
| danielpbarron: | keeping in mind that Electron isn't gonna be there forever | [19:32] |
| danielpbarron: | i think most things in Eulora are supposed to be player run eventuall | [19:33] |
| danielpbarron: | not sure how skill training will go | [19:33] |
| danielpbarron: | maybe noobs will have to train with veterans or something | [19:33] |
| danielpbarron: | that'd be something | [19:33] |
| danielpbarron: | have my character sitting in a building in town buying/selling stuff and collecting coppers to train noobs | [19:34] |
| danielpbarron: | that'd be pretty sweet | [19:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim yeah makes sense auction's inside the game. | [20:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, makes sense what you say re mixing, except for one point - it is minigame's strategic decision to replace in-game chat with irc chat (and gossipd eventually). which is why he's thinking the way he is, and which is why they'll get mixed anyway. | [20:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | and he definitely has a point about checking irc from everywhere - which is definitely desired. eulora clients will look exactly that pluriform. | [20:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 5 NTC, q 472, opening 1.5mn ; 5 NMGC, q 441, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 4 ALC, q 472, 1.2mn heard diana_coman ; 2 AGC, q 461, 1mn heard danielpbarron ; 5 NGC, q 464, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 5 NLC, q 442, 1.5mn heard diana_coman ; one stack lbn, q 233, 1.5mn diana_coman . eta 17:00 ART. <<< sold come pick up plox ? | [20:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron> i think most things in Eulora are supposed to be player run eventuall <<< this is correct, and the foregoing also. | [20:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron> that'd be pretty sweet << actually the way it'll work is that you'll be able to hire npcs to do most of the tasks you can do, and then set THEM up to be your trainer etc, in your own building etc. | [20:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | "make your own electron" | [20:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | in other news, i finally run out of urabhis harnesses, making another 500 o.O | [20:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | they kinda wear out fast | [20:31] |
| alikim: | well, as I said you have a client connected to the internet, so it can connect to anything, but your honor system will have to go too eventually I guess, so you won't be able to offer and bid w/o actual goods and money | [20:38] |
| danielpbarron: | not necessarily | [20:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | nah, it'll go the other way around, WoT can be implemented. | [20:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | recall how you can't get an account without a gpg sig ? | [20:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | this'll open the road to the first ever automated trust system. auction bot will evaluate user based on history. | [20:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | (half of why you need irc in game is so you can do X) | [20:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | not sure if you're at all familiar with this huge chunk of metagame ? it's also rather uncommon / not seen in "the normal game". | [20:40] |
| alikim: | no, all this encryption stuff, gpg, irc etc is rather an inconvenience you have to go thru to get to the game. I'm pretty sure all this only averts normal game players from trying the game, people expect to just automatically get an account download and play | [20:44] |
| alikim: | but on the other hand you are not interested in normal people so... ;) | [20:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, it seems to you an inconvenience, but this due to unfamiliarity. | [20:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's actually the cornerstone of the game being this good. | [20:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | think about it - idiots playing is the worst problem of every game out there. | [20:45] |
| alikim: | not in a game based on real money, idiots will normally pay | [20:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | you think this also because unfamiliarity. we have a lot of experience with bitcoin, and the common man, and know better. | [20:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | idiots have no expendable income. | [20:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's a very strict stupid <=> poor bijection. | [20:47] |
| alikim: | ok, I just thought it's worth mentioning that you can implement ingame AH on a player account w/o any extra effort | [20:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, with a little extra effort, of implementing it :) | [20:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | but yes, defo. you going for it ? | [20:47] |
| alikim: | nah, no incentive for me, besides you need 2 accounts for that, I don't want to turn my account into AH | [20:48] |
| alikim: | and you definitely need to have 2 to develop it | [20:49] |
| alikim: | there is a lot of smart people who are poor btw, even genius people | [20:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, as for incentive, you could charge players a small fee ; and as for turning your account into AH, you can, given that you sleep sometime. put the bot on when you sleep, sort of thing. | [20:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim genius can be stupid, that's no problem whatsoever. when you discuss stupid you discuss "what's the dumbest thing this person does", when you discuss smart you discuss "what's smartest thing this person does". these aren't opposite, much like when discussing lowest point of a map vs highest point of a map. plenty of maps have mountains, but this doesn't mean much - they may also have valleys. | [20:50] |
| alikim: | well you might be born in fascist germany and sent to a camp, which among other thing makes you poor, "what the dumbest thing you did" is an open question | [20:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | how come you're on the internet is also an open question in that setting. | [20:54] |
| alikim: | I can easily come up with a diff setting when you have access to the internet, the valleys you are talking about can be circumtances | [20:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | never. | [20:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | nature is nature is nature, if you end up in the shit it's because you fucked up. | [20:56] |
| alikim: | like born black in usa a few decades ago? or wait, lucky you, there was no internet there so doesn't count | [20:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | the setting of my experiment does not map to luck, being as deliberate as it gets. | [20:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | moreover "you fucked up" also doesn't map to "you could have done something better". ogre getting destroyed by archers IS OGRE FUCKING UP, even if the whole game is set up with the premise of archers being good vs ogres. | [20:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | "oh what's the ogre supposed to do" is not a cogent consideration. | [20:59] |
| alikim: | wjat is ogre is ugly? | [20:59] |
| alikim: | he fucked up? | [20:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | if he spends his time going to college town bars trying to pick up, yeah. | [21:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | ("oh but he has to, because he's a college aged ogre" "nobody has to anything" etc) | [21:00] |
| alikim: | what if you are born a slave and you are ppor because of that? aumatically makes you dumb? | [21:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | you were born a slave ; but you did the poor part yourself. | [21:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | heck, there's plenty of slaves that ended up very rich throughout history, from rome to haiti. | [21:01] |
| alikim: | you probably like new thought movement | [21:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is that ? | [21:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, this entire debate hinges on confusion between should, which is an ought, and could, which is an is. there's absolutely no space in ethics/morals for is-en. just because you should doesn't mean you could, nor makes it any difference, and vice-versa. | [21:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | entirely unrelated considerations. | [21:03] |
| alikim: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought | [21:03] |
| alikim: | you sound exactly like positive thinking + law of attraction | [21:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim i dunno, not particularly preoccupied with various us neoprotestantisms / whatevers. | [21:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | ahaha mno. | [21:05] |
| alikim: | you sond like one nevertheless, "if you are born a slave and you are poor that's because you fucked up, because you can do anything you desire in any situation and you can end up rich" | [21:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | well it's fine that i may sound like one, to you, but the notion amuses me, what. | [21:06] |
| alikim: | you logic is excatly the same | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | i just said above that no, there's no "because you can do anything you desire in any situation and you can end up rich". | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | so it can't be all that EXACTLY the same. | [21:07] |
| hanbot: | ahaha this is a riot, mircea_popescu believes people can do anything!!1 | [21:07] |
| alikim: | so a poor slave is poor because ...? | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | he sucks ? | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | hanbot gave me a chucke also! :D | [21:08] |
| alikim: | well that's exaclty what I wrote before | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | notreally. | [21:08] |
| alikim: | you believe any slave can be rich | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | i do not. | [21:08] |
| alikim: | if he want | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | i believe that any slave that fails to be rich deserves being poor. | [21:08] |
| hanbot: | alikim he said some slaves ended up rich, very different things | [21:09] |
| alikim: | i believe that any slave that fails to be rich deserves being poor << that includes the belief that any slave can be rich if he wants | [21:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | in short, your proposed "he is a slave" is not a CATEGORICAL ban to achievement. you need it to be a categorical ban for your argument. | [21:09] |
| hanbot: | what is this "wants"? | [21:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | includes no such thing, no. | [21:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | you think it does because you expect "all people are equal", which is not something i regard. | [21:10] |
| alikim: | the premise is a slave can not be rich by the fact he's a slave, when you say "slave that fails to be rich" it includes the possibility for any slave to get rich | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, it includes the possibility for SOME to be rich. | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | specifically - the not dumb ones. | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is no solution "for all the people", nor should there be one. most people have no business here. | [21:12] |
| alikim: | wich defies the premise that slaves can not be rich yes | [21:12] |
| alikim: | any of them | [21:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dun see it. | [21:12] |
| alikim: | that's another problem ;) | [21:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | hehehe i suppose. | [21:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, make it a formal syllogism ? | [21:14] |
| alikim: | if you were to write a program where slave and rich are mutually exclusive, for all and any slaves, then you couldn't make a conclusion that a slave "fails to be rich". Because failure is somthing you do, abd being a slave is an environment setting you can not change and can not be responsible for. But!!! I have other things to do so let's leave it where it is ;) | [21:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | it';s not clear that failure is something you do. from what i've seen failure is generally something you don't do. | [21:16] |
| alikim: | like not born a slave? | [21:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is also commonly the lot of stupid poor people to think "they are poor through no fault of their own" on this basis - they failed at nothing specifically. the problem is they failed at the unknown unknowns, which conveniently leave no mark. | [21:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | alikim more like not falling on their knees for the right master at the right time. | [21:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, hopefully he didn't get butthurt, i enjoyed the conversation. | [21:18] |
| danielpbarron: | i found a spot that doesn't hit on any basics except for reeds and fruit | [21:45] |
| danielpbarron: | usually everywhere i go i hit on all of them, even if one or two of them aren't very often | [21:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | fancy that! | [21:45] |
| danielpbarron: | also, birdman's 440 bits + my old 200 quality ennumerations == 300+ quality shrooms from barehanding | [21:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | pretty sweet. | [21:46] |
| Birdman: | mircea_popescu you still in town? | [22:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | i am | [22:15] |
| Birdman: | im here for my things, trade now? | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | 5 NTC, q 472, opening 1.5mn ; 5 NMGC, q 441, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 4 ALC, q 472, 1.2mn heard diana_coman ; 2 AGC, q 461, 1mn heard danielpbarron ; 5 NGC, q 464, 1.7mn heard Birdman ; 5 NLC, q 442, 1.5mn heard diana_coman ; one stack lbn, q 233, 1.5mn diana_coman . eta 17:00 ART. | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | so you got 5nmgc, 5ngc for 3.4mn | [22:15] |
| Birdman: | yes sir | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | hit me | [22:15] |
| Birdman: | says you're busy | [22:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | sec | [22:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | weird, used to be able to trade while crafting. apparently not all the time tho | [22:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | now Birdman | [22:17] |
| danielpbarron: | also in town | [22:18] |
| Birdman: | thank ya | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | hit me too danielpbarron | [22:18] |
| danielpbarron: | ty | [22:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | cheerios. | [22:19] |
| Birdman: | if anyone has mcguyver numina high q for sale ill buy a stack | [23:50] |
| danielpbarron: | what is hig | [23:51] |
| danielpbarron: | really need to specify a quality these days | [23:51] |
| Birdman: | well over q200 | [23:51] |
| danielpbarron: | well, over or well over ? | [23:51] |
| Birdman: | well over | [23:51] |
| Birdman: | ive some high q bps left in that line i could probably use to get some hefty over craft on | [23:52] |
| danielpbarron: | which numina | [23:52] |
| Birdman: | the 10 bv | [23:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | what's your def of high q ? | [23:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah | [23:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | i got nosehairs q 226 | [23:54] |
| Birdman: | ill take em | [23:54] |
| Birdman: | and who is workin on a DT run? have to wait till next auction? | [23:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | 315k suit you ? | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | o speaking of which, who won the charcoal bps ? danielpbarron ? | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | you trading them for product ? | [23:56] |
| Birdman: | i'd buy for 294k | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman can have q 150ish at 130 | [23:57] |
| Birdman: | i feel numina in all lines besides bouquinism is much easier to get in high quality | [23:57] |
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