| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 2x25288 ICH + 1x29832 ISP, 150k Birdman ; 1 ATC, q 130, 700k Birdman ; 1 NGC, q 130, 630k heard danielpbarron . eta 13:00 ART | [09:49] |
| DianaComan: | 700k on the ngc mircea_popescu | [09:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 2x25288 ICH + 1x29832 ISP, 150k Birdman ; 1 ATC, q 130, 700k Birdman ; 1 NGC, q 130, 700k heard DianaComan . eta 13:00 ART | [09:51] |
| danielpbarron: | 735k ngc | [09:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 2x25288 ICH + 1x29832 ISP, 150k Birdman ; 1 ATC, q 130, 700k Birdman ; 1 NGC, q 130, 735k heard danielpbarron . eta 13:00 ART | [10:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie in ~2 hours. | [10:09] |
| DianaComan: | kind of weird that there is no market for the imp tools | [10:20] |
| DianaComan: | they'll end up selling for less than the basic tools? | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | very weird. | [11:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | on top of which my sb remark was like 14k | [11:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's true that q 280, but even so, 14000 * 2.8 * 58 = 2273600 | [11:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | just the bundle was like 4.67mn | [11:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | check this crazy shit out : i locked the first sb claim at 1:25:10 and the 0.01 btc popped at 8:33:28. so it's a round 7 hours, 7 minutes and 78 seconds for me. | [13:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | im curious how many days does a sizable take. | [13:48] |
| DicePower: | Good afternoon Eulorians :) | [14:26] |
| DicePower: | In order to Start Eulora from within Visual Studio (with or without Debugging), should the unneeded projects (the ones not listed in step 8 of http://www.eulorum.org/Windows) be removed from wkspstypical? | [15:15] |
| lobbesbot: | Title: Windows - Eulorum (at www.eulorum.org) | [15:15] |
| DicePower: | I'm going to try to debug the crashing inside MSVS and see can be found. | [15:16] |
| DianaComan: | hi DicePower did you manage to compile the client? | [15:27] |
| DicePower: | Yes, but it crashed within 2 seconds of starting. | [15:28] |
| DianaComan: | were you able to run the walktest thing to check that cs is all right? | [15:29] |
| DicePower: | Yes, walktest loads, and most of the commands work. I had trouble with a few, but maybe it was just a different version of walktest. | [15:30] |
| DicePower: | I was able to move around and everything. | [15:30] |
| DicePower: | I downloaded Procmon, but it returns 15k+ pieces of data in a < 2 second span. | [15:32] |
| DicePower: | Just for the Eulora client process. | [15:33] |
| DicePower: | So not sure how to pinpoint the crash really. | [15:33] |
| DicePower: | I figured debugging in VS might provide a clue. | [15:33] |
| DianaComan: | what error does it give when it crashes? | [15:36] |
| DianaComan: | also: were you able otherwise to run jurov's client without a crash? | [15:36] |
| DicePower: | No error | [15:37] |
| DicePower: | Just dies | [15:37] |
| DicePower: | Also nothing I could stop in the Event Log for Windows. | [15:37] |
| DicePower: | I was able to run jurov's pre-build batch file, but it was on a different machine. | [15:38] |
| DianaComan: | does it load anything? or where does it crash? | [15:38] |
| DicePower: | Could try it on this one. | [15:38] |
| DianaComan: | oh, maybe try it first just in case | [15:38] |
| DicePower: | I loads a black screen for a fraction of a second, then it quietly closes. | [15:38] |
| DicePower: | Should I try the upstream, or the version with Foxybot? I assume the upstream is closer to the manually compiled version? | [15:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | they're both compiled the same way | [15:41] |
| DicePower: | kk | [15:41] |
| DianaComan: | other than that, I would personally get the gdb for windows or something similar and run it from within that to see where exactly it dies | [15:42] |
| DianaComan: | but well, why are you in the end still on windows with this? | [15:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | man likes a challenge. | [15:43] |
| DicePower: | I couldn't get it to work on Eclipse. | [15:43] |
| DicePower: | In Linux | [15:43] |
| DicePower: | I think you need MSVS to read the Jamfile. | [15:43] |
| DianaComan: | what? lol, no | [15:44] |
| DicePower: | When I tried to import into Eclipse, it would force me to select a Jamfile, and it would just import the Jamfile. | [15:45] |
| DianaComan: | a jamfile? | [15:46] |
| DianaComan: | how would eclipse force you to select that? | [15:46] |
| DicePower: | Maybe I was going about the process entirely wrong :P | [15:46] |
| DianaComan: | did you import the code into eclipse? | [15:46] |
| DicePower: | I tried to, yeah | [15:46] |
| DicePower: | Let me hop over to Linux so I can be a bit more descriptive. | [15:47] |
| DicePower: | Okay | [15:58] |
| DicePower: | I did File -> Import -> File System -> and selected Eulora's src directory. | [15:59] |
| DicePower: | I tried from the original location in Eulora's folder, and I tried pasting the contents of src into a project folder within my Eclipse workspace. | [15:59] |
| DicePower: | When I select src, it prompts me to select "Jamfile" or "Jamfile~" in the upper right box of the Import Window. | [16:00] |
| DicePower: | Then the "Finish" button becomes clickable when I select one. | [16:00] |
| DicePower: | I can import the Jamfile that way, but running it doesn't do anything. | [16:01] |
| DicePower: | Tried to figure this out with the Eclipse folks, but no one had even heard of a Jamfile. | [16:01] |
| DicePower: | They said Eclipse probably doesn't support them. | [16:02] |
| DicePower: | Didn't really get anything on Google, and tried a forum or two with no luck. | [16:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | nuts. | [16:03] |
| DicePower: | I don't remember if I went as far as Stack Overflow. | [16:03] |
| DicePower: | Don't think I did. | [16:03] |
| DicePower: | I might just be doing something horribly wrong with the Import process. | [16:03] |
| DicePower: | But IIRC jurov thought there would be major issues importing as well. | [16:04] |
| DicePower: | So not sure if there's a workaround or not. | [16:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower hey, is there a plugin for eclypse that lets it handle jamfiles ? that you're perhaps missing ? | [16:09] |
| DicePower: | Not seeing anything credible. | [16:12] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, no DicePower | [16:13] |
| DianaComan: | it's probably because you selected a folder in which all it recognised was the jamfile | [16:13] |
| DianaComan: | you might be better off importing it as an existing project | [16:14] |
| DianaComan: | and then changing its settings to what you need to compile (though I never bothered with this part) | [16:14] |
| DianaComan: | I think there is some plugin or other for eclipse to add jamfile support | [16:15] |
| DicePower: | I read that importing as an existing project, despite the ambiguous name, only works for programs that were written in Eclipse? | [16:16] |
| DianaComan: | what bullshit, no | [16:16] |
| DianaComan: | lol | [16:16] |
| DicePower: | lol | [16:16] |
| DicePower: | So the folder I selected was "/dev/EuloraV0.1.1/src" | [16:17] |
| DianaComan: | possibly what was meant where you read that was that it "works fully" in the sense of importing also whatever settings are needed for building the project etc | [16:17] |
| DicePower: | ahhh | [16:17] |
| DianaComan: | the thing with "import file system" is that you can do that INSIDE an existing project | [16:18] |
| DianaComan: | or from what I understand, you did not have a project yet... | [16:18] |
| DicePower: | So drawing from the Windows compilation experience, maybe I actually want either "/dev/EuloraV0.1.1/mk/jam" or "/dev/EuloraV0.1.1/mk/autoconf" | [16:20] |
| DicePower: | The two folders in mk that don't involve MSVS. | [16:20] |
| DicePower: | Since the MSVS folder was used for opening in MSVS | [16:20] |
| DianaComan: | anyway, try import existing project and select only root folder (so not src, one level before that) - it should work as such, but then you'll need to configure it for build within eclipse | [16:20] |
| DianaComan: | which is a different trouble | [16:20] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, don't mix everything up | [16:21] |
| DianaComan: | basically what is in the msvs folders is for msvs only - it's the "msvs projects" as it were | [16:21] |
| DicePower: | Yeah, I wonder what is in "/dev/EuloraV0.1.1/mk/jam" or "/dev/EuloraV0.1.1/mk/autoconf" though. | [16:21] |
| DianaComan: | anyway, jam and make are build systems - presumably you should be able for instance to make use of the jamfiles from eclipse, but I think you'll need some plugin for that, no idea really, perhaps bjam or something similar | [16:22] |
| DianaComan: | so don't wonder, go and read, lol | [16:22] |
| DicePower: | kk | [16:22] |
| DianaComan: | but really, the project has a root, which is the top folder | [16:22] |
| DianaComan: | eclipse is bright enough to know that a src folder contains the source code etc | [16:23] |
| DianaComan: | import as existing project, navigate to the top folder only and let it do it's job; after that you still need to setup though - as I said, I never bothered *compiling* it from eclipse, can't quite see the point | [16:24] |
| DicePower: | I think src is actually the root folder, isn't it? | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | its | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | no, it's not | [16:24] |
| DicePower: | that's what mircea_popescu has said at least | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | it is the root folder for the CODE | [16:24] |
| DicePower: | okay, I'll try it | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | a project is code + libraries + output etc | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | basically a project is everything needed , grouped somehow together | [16:24] |
| DianaComan: | so in your case, the root of the *project* seems to be EuloraV0.1.1 from the paths you wrote earlier | [16:26] |
| DicePower: | It can't find any projects to select in /dev/EuloraV0.1.1 directory in the Import from Existing menu. | [16:29] |
| DicePower: | I tried searching for nesting projects as well. | [16:29] |
| DicePower: | Nothing is found still. | [16:29] |
| DicePower: | *nested projects | [16:29] |
| DicePower: | Import -> File System does display the Jamfiles (and other files) so I don't think it's a matter of needing the pluggin at THIS stage in the process, at least. | [16:31] |
| DianaComan: | oh, do you have eclipse for c++? | [16:32] |
| DianaComan: | or did you get just java stuff? | [16:32] |
| DicePower: | C++ | [16:32] |
| DicePower: | C/C++ | [16:32] |
| DianaComan: | what folders do you have in EuloraV0.1.1 folder? | [16:33] |
| DianaComan: | (I just did the import here and it worked, lol) | [16:33] |
| DicePower: | lol | [16:33] |
| DicePower: | nice | [16:33] |
| DicePower: | I ahve | [16:33] |
| DicePower: | have | [16:33] |
| DianaComan: | alternatively you can try import c/c++ "existing code as makefile project" I suppose | [16:34] |
| DicePower: | Art, autom4te.cache, data, include, lang, mk, out, src, support. | [16:34] |
| DicePower: | I'll try it | [16:34] |
| DianaComan: | aha, should be fine, that's the root folder, yes | [16:34] |
| DianaComan: | or file->new c++ project and THEN import into that the file system stuff hence source code etc | [16:35] |
| DicePower: | I'm pretty sure I already did that part from the beginning | [16:36] |
| DianaComan: | well, if it didn't work, it means you selected something wrong in there, when specifying what sort of project you are making | [16:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan apparently eclipse thing isn't a compiler anyway, just an ide. | [16:38] |
| DianaComan: | ofc it's just an ide! | [16:38] |
| DianaComan: | lol | [16:38] |
| DianaComan: | but that's what he wanted/asked for | [16:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [16:38] |
| DicePower: | Is it analogous to Visual Studio, or do you have to download a compiler separately? | [16:39] |
| DianaComan: | what a loaded question,lol | [16:40] |
| DicePower: | LOL | [16:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | does windows actuallyt come with a compiler ? | [16:40] |
| DicePower: | On Windows it's simple, you just get MSVS and don't have to worry about the details. | [16:41] |
| DicePower: | lol | [16:41] |
| DianaComan: | but to answer the sane part of it: it can use the compiler you have installed on your machine (and if you got eclipse c/c++ (so cdt) it probably already took care of finding it etc | [16:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | im thoroughly confused. what platform are you doing all this on ? | [16:41] |
| DianaComan: | he switched to linux due to me asking him about what he did on eclipse | [16:41] |
| DianaComan: | so he has eclipse on linux | [16:41] |
| DianaComan: | and he has visual studio on windows | [16:42] |
| DicePower: | I'm working on getting it to work on either Windows or Linux or both. | [16:42] |
| DicePower: | lol | [16:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh so this is on linux ? mk. you certainly have gcc in there. | [16:42] |
| DicePower: | Yeah on Linux for the moment | [16:42] |
| DianaComan: | DicePower> On Windows it's simple, you just get MSVS and don't have to worry about the details. <- except it's SO simple that it doesn't work and then you don't even know what doesn't work or where or how , it just...dies | [16:42] |
| DicePower: | Okay, if Eclipse took care of finding the compiler I shouldn't have to worry about it then :) | [16:42] |
| DicePower: | It dies on Linux too for me, I just get one screen further before it dies. | [16:43] |
| DicePower: | So have to debug a crash on either OS :P | [16:43] |
| DianaComan: | on same machine? | [16:43] |
| DicePower: | Yes | [16:43] |
| DianaComan: | really, have you run successfully jurov's binaries ? | [16:43] |
| DicePower: | No, I got distracted and switched to Linux. | [16:44] |
| DicePower: | Will try them on Windows. | [16:44] |
| DianaComan: | k | [16:44] |
| DicePower: | Hmmm, toolchain wise, Cross GCC, GNU Autotoolchain, Linux GCC, or none, I'm guessing Linux GCC? | [16:45] |
| DianaComan: | mircea_popescu, I'll have about 10 bods ready in a few hours max, > 250q | [16:45] |
| DianaComan: | ftr I am not really convinced I can do the whole set at this q hence I'll add an extracharge on those | [16:46] |
| DianaComan: | yes DicePower | [16:46] |
| DicePower: | Trying Import -> C/C++ -> Existing Code as Makefile Project now. | [16:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | niiice | [16:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm. how much ? | [16:47] |
| DianaComan: | still got to add all the numbers given how much the bps cost and then they are also basically irreplaceable at the moment, ugh | [16:48] |
| DicePower: | Okay, it imported everything now, not just a Jamfile :) | [16:48] |
| DianaComan: | aha | [16:49] |
| DianaComan: | but really DicePower, it would save you a lot of effort if you actually studied a bit whatever it is you want to use - probably eclipse in this case | [16:50] |
| DicePower: | I know, but I'm not even sure whether I'm going to end up on Windows or Linux yet. It feels pretty bad to devote a lot of time to it and not end up using it :P | [16:52] |
| DicePower: | Plus I feel like I'm at the "almost there" point now. | [16:52] |
| DicePower: | Got all the compiling stuff done on both Linux and Windows. | [16:52] |
| DianaComan: | you mean worse than devoting a lot of time to getting stuck because you don't really know what you are doing there ? | [16:52] |
| DianaComan: | kk | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | eh he just wants it to work. | [16:53] |
| DicePower: | You're probably right, I'm just hoping stuff works, but we'll see how it goes and I'll definitely keep the advice in mind. | [16:53] |
| DicePower: | I want to start the game lol | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | i still think it's fucking incredible that a) the win binaries that work for everyone didn't work for him and then b) the linux process that works for everyone didn't work foir him all the while c) he could actually somehow run the game but all he wanted to do is cycle the acct creation. | [16:54] |
| DianaComan: | oh, starting the game would be something indeed | [16:54] |
| DianaComan: | but he hasn't tried the win binaries! | [16:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | teh story doesn't seem to come together to anything, so... | [16:54] |
| DianaComan: | yeah actually, I don't get this: DicePower HOW did you get previously to create character etc? | [16:55] |
| DianaComan: | did that work and now it stopped working or what? | [16:55] |
| DicePower: | I have tried the win binaries. Just on a different machine than the one I'm compiling on. | [16:55] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, so if you want to start the game then ...just go to that machine and start it? | [16:56] |
| DicePower: | I don't want to start the game without consideration to my character's stat distribution. | [16:56] |
| DianaComan: | mk | [16:57] |
| DicePower: | That's like playing competitive Pokemon with random IVs or something :P | [16:57] |
| DianaComan: | I seriously doubt eulora is similar to pokemon but hey | [16:58] |
| DicePower: | In the sense that when one stats is lower, one of the others is higher, and although there is no single "best" stat distribution, no doubt some stat distributions are more viable than others. | [16:59] |
| DicePower: | Some stat distributions won't be a "best response" to any in game activity, so to speak. | [16:59] |
| DianaComan: | I doubt that | [17:00] |
| hanbot: | DicePower I highly doubt it'll ever be possible to control any of that. | [17:00] |
| DianaComan: | and that's the thing: HOW are you exactly optimizing some stats for something that you have no idea about? | [17:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | in principle! | [17:00] |
| DicePower: | You think that if there are 10 stats each of which can hold values of 0-9, and the total is always 50, that all stat distributions are equal in utility? | [17:01] |
| DianaComan: | it's like optimizing your persona for martian sex or something | [17:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, she thinks you have no way to create a utility function being wholly innocent of the matter. | [17:01] |
| hanbot: | ^ | [17:01] |
| DicePower: | Well, sorta, it's true that not everything will be able to be tested, unfortunately. | [17:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | o hey, 23k this time! | [17:01] |
| DicePower: | But some stuff can be tested. | [17:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually to be precise, | [17:02] |
| DicePower: | My biggest worry at this point is the difficulty on the "philosophical" end lol. | [17:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | ((11024 + 7463 + 5222) * 2.79 + (7626+7255) * 2.8)*58 = 6253264.78 | [17:03] |
| DicePower: | Part of it is "how do you know how the stat distribution works given all the missing data," but the other part is "how do you know what stat distribution you want?" | [17:03] |
| DianaComan: | 6mn mircea_popescu ? | [17:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | whereas ther bundles were 2*4675169 and i guess the claims themselves 2-3mn each ? | [17:04] |
| DicePower: | For example, survivability seems like it will be very important to me when death becomes permanent. | [17:04] |
| DicePower: | But how do you optimize a stat distribution for survivability? | [17:04] |
| DianaComan: | oh, total? what is that exactly mircea_popescu ? | [17:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | so like 40\% ish returns i guess. | [17:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan two sb remarks. | [17:04] |
| DicePower: | At face value, you would want high Health, and other similar numbers. | [17:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | and my output dropped 1 unit. | [17:04] |
| DianaComan: | first off DicePower : do you know at least WHAT you want to optimise for? | [17:05] |
| DicePower: | That's the problem. | [17:05] |
| DianaComan: | and the solution to it is to PLAY with whatever stats you get, lol | [17:05] |
| DicePower: | A character with high Health, etc. will no doubt have its best synergy with high combat stats. | [17:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | the solution to not wanting to play can't possibly be to play. | [17:06] |
| DicePower: | But if you optimize your character for combat, did you really increase your survivability chances overall? Maybe not. | [17:06] |
| DicePower: | Isn't playing randomly with "whatever you get" pretty much the definition of unskillful play in every video game where skillful choice is meaningful? | [17:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | choice is not yet meaningful to you. | [17:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | it can only be meaningful after experience, not before. | [17:08] |
| DianaComan: | ^^^ | [17:08] |
| DianaComan: | to be fair, eulora might be rather unique in this | [17:08] |
| DicePower: | In my mind, I'm comparing it to going to a Magic the Gathering tournament with a completely random deck, and saying "I'll play my best with this deck." | [17:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is a spurious comparison. you have no idea what similarities would exist between random boring game and eulora. | [17:09] |
| DicePower: | Lack of experience is indeed a problem in choosing a stat distribution. | [17:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | the other problem being thaty you can't choose anyway. | [17:10] |
| DicePower: | It would be a lot better if people streamed Eulora, and you could get a feel for it beforehand. | [17:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | so yeah, meaninglessness of impossibility is the problem. | [17:10] |
| DicePower: | You can choose the numbers you can see. | [17:11] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, apparently DicePower wanted experience in compiling anyway, since otherwise he would have gotten a month of play experience by now, no? | [17:11] |
| DicePower: | By natural selection | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, strictly speaking, it'd maybe be better if you didn't bother with things you don't care about ? you dun wanna play it, why would you care. | [17:11] |
| DicePower: | Hehe, why think I don't want to play it? :P | [17:11] |
| DianaComan: | DicePower, there is actually danielpbarron 's youtube channel, have you checked that out? | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh danielpbarron is leaking his sikritz ? | [17:12] |
| DicePower: | Yes, I saw a few of his vides | [17:12] |
| DicePower: | vids | [17:12] |
| DicePower: | But yeah, there are a lot of problems in trying to find the optimal stat distribution. | [17:13] |
| DicePower: | Luckily all that's needed to justify trying is "better than random" results, eh? | [17:14] |
| DianaComan: | ftr DicePower the trouble in a nutshell is that in eulora feelings are quite worthless, sentiments only slightly more valuable and otherwise what really matters is not exactly the video of the thing | [17:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | "DicePower\x08>\x08\x0F But yeah, there are a lot of problems in trying to find the optimal distribution of angels on imaginary pins. chiefly that angels have no substance and imaginary pins only exist in our own heads." << there, ftfy. | [17:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | who knew religious sentiment was so common in postmodernism. | [17:15] |
| DianaComan: | well, if you are into the business of justifying things, I guess pretty much anything will do anyway | [17:15] |
| DicePower: | Well, justified in the sense that you likely to get a better result. | [17:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is no "better". | [17:16] |
| DicePower: | So you think every possible stat distribution has exactly equal utility in terms of generating skill/profit/insert Eulora goal here? | [17:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | i do not think. i know, as a factual matter, that players can't currently answer very simple questions such as "is it better to keep 3 basic hoes or make an imp hoe ?" as seein in http://trilema.com/2016/eulora-auctions-and-bilbulations/ and numerous other places/discussions on the topic of rational choice in eulora. | [17:18] |
| lobbesbot: | Title: Eulora : Auctions and Bilbulations on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. (at trilema.com) | [17:18] |
| DianaComan: | there is no better and then anyway, what you are saying is that if you ask your 2yo to choose a car, it's really quite likely that he'll choose a "better" one than if you just pick one at random from the producer's offer | [17:18] |
| DicePower: | Is it really that bad | [17:19] |
| DianaComan: | and then the 2yo is to drive the car, so the car's stats will make even MORE of a difference | [17:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | basic matters such as "is it better to level your skills or not" are constantly debated, and there's no actual resolution to the debate, ayear later. | [17:21] |
| DicePower: | Well that's because "better" is subjective, but that doesn't mean a person can't figure out the answer for themselves based on their goals, right? | [17:21] |
| DianaComan: | I suppose one can say it will make a difference as in will it be a pink mess of metal crashed into the tree or a blue mess of metal crashed into same poor tree | [17:22] |
| DianaComan: | sure, the 2 yo has goals, just...do you think they are relevant for the choice of car? | [17:22] |
| DicePower: | Just how deep is this game that it fails every analogy or comparison to all other games? | [17:23] |
| DicePower: | I mean, so far, there's like, exploring and crafting, right? | [17:24] |
| DicePower: | And each have a few subcategories. | [17:24] |
| DianaComan: | quite a few degrees of magnitude deeper than what is needed to fail that anyway | [17:24] |
| DianaComan: | ahaha | [17:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, not because "better is subjective". | [17:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | better in the sense of "more money" is not subhective, which is why i picked those examples. still doesn't help anything. | [17:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | aaand my ppb is coming out a round 299 | [17:25] |
| DianaComan: | ooo, well done | [17:25] |
| DianaComan: | I got 2 snails 500q out of a cs small | [17:25] |
| DianaComan: | ugh | [17:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [17:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | how many to the bod, a dozen or two? | [17:25] |
| DianaComan: | ahahah, you mean 33? | [17:25] |
| DianaComan: | close to three dozens, lol | [17:26] |
| DicePower: | Okay, so what you're saying is that people just haven't figured out the most profitable route in the game because the loot distribution algorithm is complex and unknown (or other complex/unknown variables), so you can't answer questions like whether one item is more profitable than another. | [17:27] |
| DianaComan: | DicePower, there is a lot of hidden complexity - everything is basically interrelated for one tiny thing | [17:27] |
| DianaComan: | there isn't a fixed "most profitable route" | [17:27] |
| DicePower: | I believe that | [17:27] |
| DicePower: | Profitable circumstances are no doubt temporary in duration | [17:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | DicePower i'm saying people've figured out just about ~nothing. | [17:28] |
| DicePower: | So the average "experienced" player would still be the 2 year old if you got to manually select your own stat distribution? | [17:29] |
| DianaComan: | quite | [17:29] |
| DianaComan: | I'm that 2 yo if I am to select the stat distribution | [17:29] |
| DianaComan: | I wouldn't be able to offer someone a full configuration as "best" or even "better" with solid reasons basically | [17:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | which ironically makes his time spent fucking around with the entryway not that much of a loss. | [17:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol. | [17:31] |
| DicePower: | What about "general principles" deductible from game theory, like characters that are really good at one thing are generally better than characters that are all around average? | [17:31] |
| DianaComan: | oh, the loss is in game-time which is by now about the only part on which there seems to be some agreement as the most valuable thing one has | [17:31] |
| DianaComan: | you know mircea_popescu I can't quite remember last time when there was someone offline from the hardcore group basically, lol | [17:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan it's not even clear who are the best characters at any arbitrary task. | [17:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | i mean DicePower | [17:33] |
| DicePower: | Well, game theory wise, I would hypothesize that characters with very high number in some stats and very low numbers in other stats would do better on average than characters with even numbers in all stats. | [17:33] |
| DicePower: | I think that would apply unless the game has been reverse engineered to prevent such a thing. | [17:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | this hypothesizing has as much basis in reality as the hypotesizing that some characters have a blue hat. | [17:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is, given that hats exists and blue is a color, somewhat more likely than 0. | [17:35] |
| DicePower: | Well, game theory makes solid predictions unless a game has been designed to avoid the outcome of the predictions. | [17:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | game theory is like pick-up artistry. makes solid predictions for a cultural and fashion space. | [17:43] |
| DicePower: | Annnyhow, one really interesting thing I noticed on Eclipse is that I imported the entire root folder, whereas on MSVS I opened only a single solution /mk/msvs10/wkspstypical.sln with a bunch of projects. Is the general process on Eclipse completely different, in that I'm going to be building and running the entire Eulora folder, or am I going to be looking for a solution to build and run? | [17:43] |
| DicePower: | mircea_popescu: I never understand 47.9\% of the things you say :P | [17:43] |
| DicePower: | Hmm, maybe it's more like 17.9\%, but I know I got the 7.9\% part right. | [17:44] |
| DianaComan: | DicePower, the client is basically one single project, which however depends on others, such as crystal space I guess | [17:46] |
| DianaComan: | you'll have to configure everything in order to compile it from within eclipse, but I have no idea on everything you'd need to configure | [17:47] |
| DicePower: | Hmmm, okay, do you know how I should think of /Eulora0.1.1/mk/msvs10/wkspstypical.sln in the Windows package? It seems like a solution nested within a "project," which is backward from the usual hierarchy. | [17:48] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, the "solutions" thing is purely visual studio stuff | [17:49] |
| DicePower: | okay | [17:50] |
| DianaComan: | visual studio organises your files basically into solutions which have in turn projects as far as I know (mercifully I haven't used VS too much) | [17:50] |
| DianaComan: | but that is really just an organisation imposed by vs on top of the code as it were - it has ZERO impact on the code itself or whatever you do in another ide | [17:51] |
| DianaComan: | (such as eclipse) | [17:51] |
| DicePower: | Yeah, there are projects within the .sln file when you open it in VS. | [17:51] |
| DicePower: | The projects names are for example, appsclient, libgui, etc. | [17:51] |
| DicePower: | These projects are what you build in the Windows compilation process. | [17:52] |
| DianaComan: | I know that, but really, comparing apples with oranges is not helpful, neither code-related nor game-related | [17:52] |
| DianaComan: | it's in the visual studio compilation process to be as precise as windows mess will allow | [17:52] |
| DicePower: | Whereas in Eclipse, I'm building and compiling the whole Eulora project at once? | [17:52] |
| DianaComan: | basically yes | [17:52] |
| DicePower: | Okay | [17:52] |
| DianaComan: | ftr in visual studio you would also be building the whole client at once: just that yes, that requires building its subparts etc, just like anywhere, can't escape that | [17:53] |
| DicePower: | Hmmm | [17:53] |
| DicePower: | I don't think I ever manually built the Eulora folder as a whole in VS, building libgui and apppsclient was all that was done. | [17:55] |
| DicePower: | (maybe that's why it crashed on startup lol) | [17:55] |
| DianaComan: | possibly apppsclient is the top one which causes the rest to be built | [17:55] |
| DicePower: | Yeah it does have a few others as dependencies | [17:56] |
| DicePower: | I guess what you're saying is that building apppscilent in MSVS and building all contents of the Eulora folder in Eclipse are just the ways that the IDEs need to be used, but they do the same work under the hood? | [17:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | does that actually take a triple p ? | [18:00] |
| DianaComan: | yeah, because it is app + ps+client | [18:01] |
| DicePower: | It's written both ways in the install guide. | [18:01] |
| DicePower: | I actually couldn't remember. | [18:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah | [18:02] |
| DianaComan: | DicePower, basically yes: there is only one way to build same car from same parts, but different garages might have different fancy names for all sorts | [18:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | so i will be making almost 500 ppb out of two remarkable sb. which will make like 150 cs. which 150cs ain't making two remarkables no way jose. | [18:03] |
| DianaComan: | wonders what got into her with all the car talk, lol | [18:03] |
| DianaComan: | kind of sad what 150cs will do these days | [18:03] |
| DianaComan: | mircea_popescu, what's the bottleneck on the considerations or why are they so expensive? | [18:04] |
| DianaComan: | they are like what, 500\%? | [18:05] |
| DianaComan: | actually...the 130q tink cons have qabv 24k and they go for 700k so that's ..omg | [18:07] |
| DianaComan: | even minimum asked was 500k, that's still 2000\% | [18:09] |
| DicePower: | DianaComan: In this case, would it maybe be more like two Web sites for ordering a car, where one asks you to just select the model, and the other asks you to select each part, even though there may only be one option for each? Or am I going to be "selecting the parts" in Eclipse as well? | [18:11] |
| DianaComan: | don't know enough about VS to be fully sure what it does and what it doesn't; eclipse builds incrementally though and if you build just one thing in vs, then so does vs | [18:13] |
| DicePower: | okie | [18:14] |
| DicePower: | The thing that threw me off what that I did not load the whole Eulora project into VS. | [18:14] |
| DicePower: | But just a small file in the depths of the /mk folder. | [18:14] |
| DicePower: | I'll get jurov's input on this when he's around, since it might be a special thing that VS does. | [18:15] |
| DianaComan: | that file contained pointers for VS to go and load what you call "the whole eulora project" | [18:15] |
| DicePower: | Ahhh okay | [18:15] |
| DicePower: | That solves the mystery then. | [18:16] |
| DianaComan: | the equivalent of that would be a similar file generated by an eclipse project, but since eulora doesn't have an eclipse project, there is no such file | [18:16] |
| DicePower: | Gotcha | [18:16] |
| DicePower: | That really clarifies a lot | [18:17] |
| DicePower: | ty | [18:17] |
| DianaComan: | gl | [18:17] |
| DicePower: | Now to go learn how to do configurations lol | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan let's see : no dt bps ; no canines ; no gt bps ; no acg bps ; no st for making acg ; no etc. | [18:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | they're the crowning glory of shortages. | [18:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | and since 100 bps went for 60mn iirc, i gotta amortize 600k per click just in cons costs. | [18:19] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, if you count acg as no bps, then pretty much ANY bp is no bp, possibly except slag and bct | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | how many you got ? | [18:20] |
| DianaComan: | will check | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | tm is also no bp - i got a few dozen and that's it. | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | but yes, us and so and cs and yheah, pretty much any bp. | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | certainly btk and ms | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | which reminds me | [18:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | AUCTION : 2x25288 ICH + 1x29832 ISP, 150k Birdman ; 1 ATC, q 130, 700k Birdman ; 1 NGC, q 130, 735k heard danielpbarron . < SOLD, please come collect. | [18:22] |
| Birdman: | on my way mircea_popescu | [18:22] |
| DianaComan: | ~1k acg bps | [18:23] |
| DianaComan: | cheap gin, right? | [18:23] |
| Birdman: | lol did i really buy 2 tools for 150k | [18:23] |
| Birdman: | 3 tools | [18:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan yeah | [18:24] |
| Birdman: | thanks | [18:24] |
| DianaComan: | by same measure mircea_popescu the bods would also end up some 1000\% minimum since no st for ms, no ms bp, no bod bp, no mad bp, no pocc bp, no bubbles for wheel, no wheel bp, no btk bp | [18:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, each rdd takes ~50 gins iirc ; each dt 8 maybe | [18:26] |
| DianaComan: | and basically at 13mn the lot of bps at 50q, that makes it 26k only the bp for one single bod at 50q | [18:26] |
| DianaComan: | so at100q that's already 52k only for the bp, guess will start with that and add on top the rest | [18:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | what q are your bods ? | [18:27] |
| DianaComan: | well, they are valued at 73800 coppers so qbv is that, to give an idea | [18:28] |
| DianaComan: | but I mean something like 52k + 1.8*73800 would be a minimum and I am still not sure it's a good idea, will go through it again | [18:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | holy shit. so my sb is 279 ; my ppb comes out 299. i figure this is an OC so i can't possibly get numina | [18:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | then i get 777 feelings | [18:28] |
| DianaComan: | given that each bod anyway means 4 rounds of decay (2mcguyver, 1 lapidary, 1 gung) | [18:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | and im like wtf. | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | tell you wtf : the BP is q 203. which means that i am getting a 0.3\% !!! oc. | [18:29] |
| DianaComan: | heh | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | which hit a jackpot high enough to pop out 20k worth of numina | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | and 777 EXACTLY, at that. | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | epic. | [18:29] |
| DianaComan: | ahahah, nice | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | DianaComan my bod is q 150, says 43755 | [18:30] |
| DianaComan: | yeah, mine are right now 253q | [18:31] |
| DianaComan: | but as I said, I can't really make all 500 of them this high q | [18:31] |
| DianaComan: | that's partially why I'm not sure I'm happy with that calc above | [18:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | so you paid what, 13mn for all the needed recipes + whatever the materials cost + the time - the experience... how's 150k ea sound ? | [18:33] |
| DianaComan: | totally not worth it, that's how it sounds | [18:34] |
| DianaComan: | I'll make you some shittier ones though | [18:34] |
| DianaComan: | for that 150k | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh. 500 recipes, this is a 75mn deal as it is ? | [18:35] |
| DianaComan: | making 200+ q with 50q bps is not exactly a walk in the park | [18:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is also true. hm. | [18:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | how many you actually got ? | [18:35] |
| DianaComan: | my calc above ends up as 52k + 1.8*73800 = 185k which I suppose is a minimum I'd be fine with | [18:36] |
| DianaComan: | at the moment at least | [18:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm. | [18:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | how many was it ? | [18:36] |
| DianaComan: | I am making now the last 2 of a batch of 10, it's really a pain to get all stuff at that huge q | [18:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright, you got 1.85mn for 10. | [18:37] |
| DianaComan: | ok, will ping and deliver as soon as ready | [18:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | and in other news : believe this or not, but i still have 132 of the original set of 200 bod recipes. | [18:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | originally i thought i was gonna curse myself for not clicking all ; now im sad i did the 68 i did. | [18:37] |
| DianaComan: | those were q 200 though, no? | [18:38] |
| DianaComan: | oh and btw, do the screens take US? | [18:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | us and gt yes. | [18:38] |
| DianaComan: | I have this high q US I made and I try to make up my mind if I want it made into screens which means I need you for it as I don't have screen bps | [18:38] |
| DianaComan: | or into a wheel | [18:38] |
| DianaComan: | ugh | [18:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | wheel is good neh ? | [18:39] |
| DianaComan: | I should even still have some 120q grubsilk thread I suppose | [18:39] |
| DianaComan: | it is, but I need the screens to make bits | [18:39] |
| DianaComan: | among other things | [18:39] |
| DianaComan: | I probably need both so will prolly make another us anyway, true | [18:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm... i should prolly auction a screen huh ? | [18:44] |
| DianaComan: | well, you have it listed at 500\% | [18:44] |
| DianaComan: | auctions work as they work, but then again, feel free to, what can I say | [18:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | o look at that, i'm out of them | [18:45] |
| Birdman: | ive like 3 high q screens | [18:45] |
| DianaComan: | ahaha, such shop, no stock :D | [18:45] |
| Birdman: | all offers considered | [18:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | cuz he keeps buying them lol | [18:45] |
| DianaComan: | and I can only imagine when/what will it take to get screen bps... | [18:45] |
| DianaComan: | sheesh | [18:45] |
| DianaComan: | guess will rather stop making bits | [18:46] |
| DianaComan: | kind of wonder why in hell did I actually buy maculature | [18:46] |
| DianaComan: | when I can't seem to even use up all that I produced from my one single click on the cons | [18:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [18:46] |
| Birdman: | Thats a good point | [18:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's prolly because your stats aren't right. | [18:46] |
| DianaComan: | ahahaha, INDEED | [18:47] |
| Birdman: | Reason i bought my cons was for the maculature, almost out of bits myself | [18:47] |
| Birdman: | will be interesting to see how high i can get the quality to come out | [18:47] |
| DianaComan: | do you have shredding bps Birdman ? | [18:47] |
| Birdman: | yeah lots | [18:48] |
| DianaComan: | kk | [18:48] |
| Birdman: | why? | [18:48] |
| DianaComan: | I was under the impression you didn't have them/were looking for them, nm | [18:48] |
| Birdman: | nah, posted in the logs i was trying to sell all of mine a few days ago | [18:49] |
| DianaComan: | mircea_popescu, ready and it's even a discount since final q is 257, so qbv almost 75k! | [18:49] |
| Birdman: | Probably the least efficient way to make bits right now | [18:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | im in town. | [18:49] |
| DianaComan: | uhm, that's all I have, lol | [18:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | wasn;t it 1.85 ? | [18:50] |
| DianaComan: | pfuai | [18:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | your stats ain't right! | [18:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | sweet. | [18:51] |
| DianaComan: | enjoy | [18:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | i guess now ima have to click some more books. | [18:51] |
| Birdman: | danielpbarron got any tokens to sell? | [18:55] |
| danielpbarron: | DianaComan> my calc above ends up as 52k + 1.8*73800 = 185k which I suppose is a minimum I'd be fine with << I'll take at least 1 | [19:33] |
| danielpbarron: | Birdman> danielpbarron got any tokens to sell? << ya | [19:35] |
| danielpbarron: | mircea_popescu, you around? | [19:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | i am | [19:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | danielpbarron | [19:48] |
| danielpbarron: | k | [19:48] |
| danielpbarron: | omw to town | [19:48] |
| danielpbarron: | ty | [19:53] |
| Birdman: | those 2 imp hoes got me a whopping 27 tinies | [19:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | my pleasure. | [19:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | Birdman all worn out ? | [19:56] |
| Birdman: | yeah | [19:58] |
| DicePower: | Well, got the client to make it to login screen. | [22:10] |
| DicePower: | Can't say how though, just magic basically | [22:10] |
| DicePower: | Logged in :D | [22:12] |
| DicePower: | So my Windows version is further along than my Linux version now on both IDE and success of compile. | [22:13] |
| DicePower: | I guess we put a hold on the Eclipse stuff for now. | [22:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | magic ? | [22:15] |
| DicePower: | Yup, just kept building it until it worked. | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | nice lol. | [22:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, well done! | [22:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | so what stats are you gonna pick ? :D | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | The only things that were even remotely different than what I'd been trying were 1) I set a different project as the startup project, then set it back to apppsclient (I'm almost 100\% sure I was starting the correct project the whole time though), and 2) built the solution instead of rebuilding it (I chose build before, but that was at the beginning). | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | Well, I have a two phase task ahead. | [22:18] |
| DicePower: | Build the bot to check the ranges of testable values, and build the bot to cycle through characters and get the stats I want. | [22:19] |
| DicePower: | They may be the same bot with slight modification. | [22:19] |
| DicePower: | The plan is to use the results of the first step to figure out what the options are. | [22:20] |
| DicePower: | I also need to study the channel logs to try to build a correct a model of the stats as I can. | [22:20] |
| DicePower: | I have found that reading all of the channel logs is far too big a task. | [22:20] |
| DicePower: | So I'll need to just search through them, and maybe read some of the more important days, if there are any in particular that are recommended. | [22:21] |
| DicePower: | But the first bot just needs to get data. | [22:23] |
| DicePower: | I don't think the programming part will be extremely difficult, unless there's some hiccup, which usually does happen. | [22:23] |
| DicePower: | I think you are correct in saying that the hardest part will be figuring out what to choose. | [22:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | too bad bitbet's gone, could have had a pool going on whether you'll be done this year. | [22:26] |
| DicePower: | LOL | [22:26] |
| DicePower: | You think the programming will take that long? | [22:26] |
| DicePower: | I mean, I'm a slow programmer, but | [22:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | you seem pretty dedicated... | [22:35] |
| DicePower: | hehe | [22:39] |
| DicePower: | You were the one that said...(looks up what you said)... | [22:40] |
| DicePower: | Well I can't find what you said! | [22:40] |
| DicePower: | But it was something! | [22:40] |
| DicePower: | Something about learning the game code, and opportunity knocking! | [22:41] |
| DicePower: | Ohhhh | [23:02] |
| DicePower: | The name character limit isn't what I thought it was... | [23:02] |
| DicePower: | It just prevents you from using a capital anywhere except as the first letter. | [23:02] |
| DicePower: | So McDonald is an illegal first or last name. | [23:03] |
| DicePower: | I was attributing it to a stricter character limit than what actually is. | [23:03] |
| DicePower: | Aaaaaand we're back to build errors XD | [23:30] |
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