#eulora Logs for 15 Feb 2016

February 15th, 2016 by Diana Coman

diana_coman:	mircea_popescu, 2nd us ready	[08:13]
mircea_popescu:	yay. trade at will	[08:14]
diana_coman:	one us at 120q and one at 121q so 290349*(1.20+1.21) = 699741; 947443-699741 = 247701bv feelings you are due, right?	[08:21]
mircea_popescu:	aite.	[08:21]
diana_coman:	I'll have to dig out and figure out the feelings in a mom	[08:22]
diana_coman:	sorry got closed, trade again	[08:23]
diana_coman:	take the us as I still have to see what feelings I have exactly, lol	[08:23]
jurov:	so, anyone can shed a light how are the bps made and for much?	[08:29]
diana_coman:	has no idea on that - other that MP has most of what is needed to make bps as far as I know	[08:29]
mircea_popescu:	no bps were made yet.	[08:29]
mircea_popescu:	the ingredients for making bps aren't made yet	[08:29]
mircea_popescu:	the tools for making ingredients for making bps are being prepared but weren't made yet.	[08:30]
jurov:	lolk. are any old-fashioned mining tools for sale?	[08:32]
mircea_popescu:	well there were a few hundred of cs on auction past week, maybe some buyer sells some. but otherwise... planet's kinda running out of tools from what i see.	[08:34]
diana_coman:	jurov, check my shop	[08:37]
jurov:	ah. and how many hoes?	[08:39]
diana_coman:	how many do you want?	[08:40]
jurov:	50	[08:40]
diana_coman:	ok, can do	[08:40]
diana_coman:	trade me	[08:40]
jurov:	or, rather 67 to keep easy on coins	[08:41]
diana_coman:	lol, that's 1005000, ok	[08:41]
jurov:	you're busy with another trade	[08:43]
diana_coman:	give me 1 min and I'll trade you then	[08:45]
diana_coman:	jurov, trade	[08:46]
diana_coman:	enjoy jurov	[08:48]
jurov:	dunno how enjoyable it's going to be. not having such heaps of mining bps, and bot'll prolly need overhaul, too	[08:49]
diana_coman:	enums are still given	[08:49]
diana_coman:	that is for the future jurov	[08:49]
diana_coman:	so go and mine happily for now, lol	[08:49]
jurov:	aok :)	[08:50]
mircea_popescu:	as with everything else in eulora : live, mine and make merry, for tomorrow...	[08:51]
diana_coman:	mircea_popescu, 28 stacks of tinkerer's feelings at 9q so 0.091028*9999=251974, how is that to settle the us deal?	[08:51]
mircea_popescu:	o.O	[08:51]
mircea_popescu:	so THAT's why you asked re quality huh ?	[08:52]
mircea_popescu:	aite.	[08:52]
diana_coman:	lol, yes, is that a problem?	[08:52]
diana_coman:	the 200 limit clearly needs to go up I suppose	[08:52]
mircea_popescu:	nah, is fine, hit me.	[08:52]
mircea_popescu:	at least they're light, huh.	[08:53]
diana_coman:	well, I have 3 tables full	[08:53]
diana_coman:	not SO light	[08:53]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[08:53]
mircea_popescu:	also we'll need to break after 1st trade, i dun have 28 slots lol	[08:54]
diana_coman:	kk	[08:54]
mircea_popescu:	hey some of these are 9996 etc!	[08:54]
mircea_popescu:	9990!	[08:54]
diana_coman:	are they?	[08:54]
diana_coman:	I'll calc and add	[08:54]
mircea_popescu:	9960!	[08:54]
mircea_popescu:	SCAM!!111	[08:55]
diana_coman:	no worries, I can see the list too	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	diana_coman i really dun give a shit lol.	[08:55]
diana_coman:	lol, I didn't really check that either and it was anyway above the 247701 exact thing	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	not worth computing, for satoshi values.	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	the electricity's worth more.	[08:56]
diana_coman:	like 14 feelings lol	[08:56]
diana_coman:	it's 9996 NOT 9960!	[08:56]
diana_coman:	lol	[08:56]
mircea_popescu:	in today's wheel of morality, eulora teaches us feelings are worthless.	[08:56]
mircea_popescu:	nah there was a 9960 in there	[08:56]
diana_coman:	ah, you are right	[08:56]
diana_coman:	indeed	[08:56]
diana_coman:	and indeed, such worthless feelings at 0.9 satoshi :)))	[08:57]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[08:57]
diana_coman:	even feelingses lol	[08:58]
mircea_popescu:	:))	[08:58]
danielpbarron:	;;later tell fghj i still need your tubers yes, and i even have some shroom ordinaries for you to build to finish that part of what i need	[08:59]
diana_coman:	mircea_popescu, any time soon for the remaining stacks of feelings?	[09:09]
mircea_popescu:	please yes	[09:09]
mircea_popescu:	did i miss the trade window ?	[09:09]
diana_coman:	no, I just wasn't sure	[09:10]
mircea_popescu:	ah sorry should have said.	[09:10]
mircea_popescu:	so it turns out ima have to go dig up some crumbly rocks.	[09:10]
mircea_popescu:	ready	[09:11]
mircea_popescu:	so that's 27, can take 1 more	[09:12]
diana_coman:	one more stack	[09:12]
mircea_popescu:	ty	[09:12]
diana_coman:	there you are, foxy gave you a shit-ton of feelings :)))	[09:13]
mircea_popescu:	bot doesn't know how to craft recipes with toolkit bundles in them i dont think	[09:14]
diana_coman:	yeah, that breaks the model really	[09:14]
diana_coman:	same for the cookbook	[09:14]
diana_coman:	(that's why the turning wheel bp is not in the cookbook)	[09:14]
diana_coman:	basically those with two-passes need to be handled differently	[09:15]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[09:16]
mircea_popescu:	i generally just make the bundles separately	[09:16]
diana_coman:	yes, of course, but it still needs to read the bp differently	[09:16]
diana_coman:	to figure out that it's basically out of two parts	[09:17]
mircea_popescu:	ah yeah	[09:18]
mircea_popescu:	yeah i see the problem huh.	[09:18]
mircea_popescu:	diana_coman got any ordinary cr sitting around ?	[09:20]
mircea_popescu:	or anybody ?	[09:20]
diana_coman:	hm, I think I built them all really	[09:21]
diana_coman:	do you need q > 180 ?	[09:21]
mircea_popescu:	i need as high as i can get, so i'd like my own	[09:22]
diana_coman:	aha	[09:22]
mircea_popescu:	of course... i wouldn't say no to you sticking a few into place and selling thjem to me.	[09:23]
diana_coman:	uhm, got the cs? what do you pay for them?	[09:23]
mircea_popescu:	oh you have no cs ?	[09:23]
diana_coman:	well, I have, but not that many to start using them for others, lol	[09:23]
mircea_popescu:	lemme see what the ord takes	[09:24]
diana_coman:	thing is also: if you want guaranteed ord then you prolly should give the cs to a noob	[09:24]
diana_coman:	he'll get a shitty ord but 1 ord per cs	[09:24]
mircea_popescu:	oh good god in heavens, 10 md	[09:24]
mircea_popescu:	i think ima just go mine.	[09:25]
diana_coman:	aha	[09:25]
mircea_popescu:	well, so by the looks of this, ima be busy crafting for the entire rest of the day and overnight, then prolly mine tomorrow the stuff i need to make charcoal, then make that, then make ampoules no sooner than...wed.	[09:26]
mircea_popescu:	at this rate i'd be quite surprised if a single bp is made before the week is out.	[09:27]
jurov:	what you need to be mined?	[09:34]
mircea_popescu:	i must be the one doing the mining, i need high q.	[09:35]
jurov:	100something won't do?	[09:35]
mircea_popescu:	oh no. 200 something even won't do, i see a difference between 220 and 205	[09:37]
DicePower:	hey hey	[14:51]
DicePower:	time for some more science :)	[14:52]
mircea_popescu:	hola	[14:55]
DicePower:	Wait a sec	[14:57]
DicePower:	It says in game that Eulora is open source!	[14:57]
DicePower:	"Eulora is free as in freedom. The source code for each release is available for anyone to download - amnd modify!"	[14:58]
DicePower:	*and	[14:58]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[14:59]
mircea_popescu:	binaries are signed and awaiting you on the site, what.	[14:59]
mircea_popescu:	sorry. SOURCE FILES are signed and awaiting you on the site, what.	[14:59]
DicePower:	How is the stat system (or even the loot system) a mystery if the source code is public knowledge?	[14:59]
mircea_popescu:	the client source code. gpl, eh ?	[15:00]
DicePower:	Ahhhhh okay, not the game's source code.	[15:01]
mircea_popescu:	yes, the game's source code.	[15:01]
mircea_popescu:	that part of which that you run.	[15:01]
DicePower:	But not that part which stores character stats or does loot calculations?	[15:02]
mircea_popescu:	well no, you don't run that part. it's not a distributed decentralized game.	[15:02]
mircea_popescu:	not that i wouldn't love for it to be, but the tech's not there yet.	[15:02]
DicePower:	hehe okay	[15:02]
DicePower:	Thought that might be a breakthrough for figuring this stat thing out lol	[15:03]
mircea_popescu:	aww.	[15:03]
DicePower:	Hmm, my stamina doesn't seem to go down at all when I run.	[15:05]
danielpbarron:	yeah i don't think mine does either, or at least i don't notice ever "getting tired" and slowing down	[15:07]
mircea_popescu:	in fairness, the p/m stamina thing is just a stub yet and not fully implemented.	[15:07]
DicePower:	Running is just the R or W button (etc.), there's no faster way to run, right	[15:07]
mircea_popescu:	will be more of a thing once there's fighting	[15:07]
DicePower:	Ahh okay, is there a way to get out of breath?	[15:08]
jurov:	there was faster way to run by hacking the client(and it did drain the stamina), but server now does not allow it	[15:09]
DicePower:	diana_coman mentioned a character's running duration as a possible testing idea	[15:09]
DicePower:	Oh I see :P	[15:09]
mircea_popescu:	if you load yourself up to the limit and try running around a while may see some drain	[15:09]
mircea_popescu:	but altogether meaningless, whatever is in there right now won't make it once the thing becomes a bona fide game mechanic.	[15:10]
DicePower:	Okay, so not a free test either.	[15:10]
DicePower:	And apparently taking damage isn't free, because you never recover naturally, from what I've heard.	[15:10]
mircea_popescu:	you don't, no. eulora breaks with tradition, none of that "i'm a carnot cycle running on red gasoline"	[15:11]
mircea_popescu:	a la diablo	[15:11]
DicePower:	lol	[15:11]
mircea_popescu:	not that diablo wasn't a great game. but... done.	[15:11]
DicePower:	I wonder, is there a source of moderate damage (like maybe 1/10th of total or something) near the starting area?	[15:11]
DicePower:	Since as I understand, there is no random element to damage, but each instance is the same...	[15:12]
danielpbarron:	yes actually	[15:12]
danielpbarron:	the glowing orb	[15:12]
DicePower:	...you'd only need to get hit once to test defense.	[15:12]
DicePower:	In the water?	[15:12]
mircea_popescu:	there's that glowing orb by the water, for one.	[15:12]
danielpbarron:	near the water	[15:12]
mircea_popescu:	you take damage falling, also.	[15:12]
DicePower:	sweet	[15:12]
mircea_popescu:	if you manage to always fall the same distance, that may be a good measure.	[15:12]
danielpbarron:	if you can find a way to fall and not die outright, that would be interesting	[15:13]
DicePower:	You usually either die, or don't take any damage?	[15:13]
mircea_popescu:	i think it happened to me once or twice while i was mining	[15:13]
mircea_popescu:	OH! mining barehanded! how about that ?	[15:13]
danielpbarron:	or should i say, if you can find a way to walk calmly down a slightly steep slope without dieing..	[15:13]
DicePower:	lol	[15:13]
danielpbarron:	he can't explore without the skill	[15:13]
DicePower:	How dangerous is the orb?	[15:13]
DicePower:	Like, how quickly does it kill?	[15:14]
mircea_popescu:	o he tried danielpbarron ?	[15:14]
danielpbarron:	slower than a gently walk down a steep slope :p	[15:14]
danielpbarron:	i recall trying	[15:14]
DicePower:	kk	[15:14]
danielpbarron:	the /explore command didn't work for me until i had gathering	[15:14]
mircea_popescu:	ah	[15:14]
DicePower:	The glow burns you! -100 HP, BP, SP	[15:15]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower current death just means you gotta wait a minute	[15:15]
DicePower:	kk	[15:15]
danielpbarron:	not even a minute	[15:15]
danielpbarron:	like 15 seconds	[15:15]
danielpbarron:	unless that's another test point	[15:15]
mircea_popescu:	i suppose it could be neh ?	[15:16]
mircea_popescu:	the wonder of science is that everything is scientificicable.	[15:16]
DicePower:	So the Health, Blood, and Spirit in the Stats and Skills menu that say, i.e., 49/100, must not be out of 100 HP, but simply giving the percentage.	[15:16]
mircea_popescu:	must be	[15:16]
DicePower:	I suspect that every character will take 100 damage per hit (so defense is the same, or else the orb ignores defense). But perhaps each character's HP is different.	[15:17]
mircea_popescu:	by which logic, 100 hp - whatever your defense is gave you 51\% damage of whatever your total hp is.	[15:17]
mircea_popescu:	maybe the orb doesn't announce what you get, but what it gives.	[15:17]
DicePower:	Well I took 5 hits of 100 eahc.	[15:17]
DicePower:	each.	[15:17]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[15:17]
DicePower:	The hit bot was really buggy.	[15:17]
DicePower:	box	[15:18]
mircea_popescu:	hm ?	[15:18]
DicePower:	Like, it dealt two instances of damage very quickly, and kept dealing damage even when I was far away from it.	[15:18]
DicePower:	My blood went to 11 in 5 hits.	[15:25]
DicePower:	I assume you die if Health, Blood, or Spirit hit 0.	[15:25]
diana_coman:	DicePower, you can always kill yourself in eulora too - and atm you just get back to life after a short while	[15:26]
diana_coman:	try typing the command in the box /die	[15:26]
DicePower:	true	[15:27]
DicePower:	Would just interfere with the test if I die in the middle.	[15:27]
DicePower:	Since it the value would go below 0 but display as 0.	[15:27]
diana_coman:	ah	[15:28]
mircea_popescu:	is kinda curious about the result.	[15:28]
DicePower:	:)	[15:28]
DicePower:	Will share ofc	[15:28]
DicePower:	Just expanding the Excel sheet atm	[15:28]
mircea_popescu:	diana_coman can you believe this guy ?	[15:28]
jurov:	DicePower: My experience with eulora development is like when the combat will be implemented, it will render any pravious experiments with orb obsolete	[15:29]
jurov:	because the combar is leftover from planeshift	[15:29]
mircea_popescu:	this is somewhat likely.	[15:29]
DicePower:	Is that to say that all underlying character stats will be wiped?	[15:29]
mircea_popescu:	mno.	[15:30]
diana_coman:	yeah, wanted to say that DicePower you are prolly way better off experimenting what is actually implemented specifically for eulora at this point	[15:30]
diana_coman:	which means however that you need some skills and to get going	[15:30]
jurov:	no, the mechanics and statistics are likely to be diff	[15:30]
diana_coman:	mircea_popescu, quite rare really	[15:30]
DicePower:	Just to be clear, I don't really care about how orb damage works, I'm just trying to figure out how a character's defense and/or health work.	[15:31]
diana_coman:	DicePower, not the stats, no, but the thing is that at the moment since no combat implemented, there is also no specific mechanics through which damage is done	[15:31]
diana_coman:	exactly how they work is probably to be defined /fully specified later	[15:31]
diana_coman:	that's the point	[15:31]
DicePower:	^^that might make it EASIER to test certain things, eh?	[15:32]
mircea_popescu:	it might.	[15:32]
diana_coman:	sure, certain things, yes; just make sure you test the useful things rather than the available ones as it were	[15:33]
DicePower:	good point	[15:33]
mircea_popescu:	lol how;s he to know ?	[15:33]
DicePower:	Well for example	[15:33]
mircea_popescu:	see, that's the fucking beauty of this. yes, science is meaningless without paradigm. nevertheless, stupidity in science is maintained THROUGH the paradigm.	[15:33]
DicePower:	Testing the damage algorithm of the orb might be useless.	[15:34]
DicePower:	But finding a character's health total through orb damage might be useful.	[15:34]
DicePower:	If the health total isn't wiped later.	[15:34]
diana_coman:	my point exactly, yes	[15:34]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower properly speaking, if there is a way to verify later whether it was or was not wiped.	[15:34]
DicePower:	The way ought to be "my character is dying slower than the character next to me if I have more health." lol	[15:35]
diana_coman:	or if you have dunno..more endurance or some kind of better defence	[15:36]
diana_coman:	or who knows what, lol	[15:36]
DicePower:	Right, there could be other factors.	[15:36]
DicePower:	Which draws us back to the initial question.	[15:36]
DicePower:	If one stat is higher, are other stats more likely to be lower.	[15:36]
mircea_popescu:	well, i'll do the playerbase a favour, and say that	[15:37]
mircea_popescu:	not only is a/a/a/a vs a/a/a/a+1 impossible to encounter ; so is any a/a/a/a a+k/a+j/a+m/a+n situation for k, j, m, n positive.	[15:38]
DicePower:	Which also implies that it's true for any negative value, since you could just flip the two players around, it would seem.	[15:39]
DicePower:	That's very interesting.	[15:39]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[15:39]
mircea_popescu:	there's no "strictly better roll" in eulora.	[15:39]
DicePower:	So if you optimize your Health, or your Capacity or Weight, some other underlying stat is suffering.	[15:39]
mircea_popescu:	basically the only way to have a better roll is by giving specific, unequal weights to the various attributes.	[15:40]
DicePower:	This does seem, at least on the surface, to imply a stat point distribution system, where everyone has the same number of stat points, just distributed differently.	[15:41]
danielpbarron:	this is consistent with what i've seen between my character and birdman's	[15:41]
mircea_popescu:	which is by its nature the meaning of "a job"	[15:41]
danielpbarron:	he noted that he wished he had my stats because they looked like they were better for pvp	[15:41]
danielpbarron:	i had high strength and low inteligence and he had the opposite	[15:41]
DicePower:	So you were the correct one all along daniel :)	[15:42]
danielpbarron:	i'm gonna need a better computer when pvp is a thing	[15:42]
DicePower:	And your advice to aim for lower Capacity and Weight might be a place to start.	[15:43]
danielpbarron:	well only because right now i don't see the benefit in high strength	[15:43]
DicePower:	Yeah	[15:43]
danielpbarron:	it lets me take stuff out of storage faster	[15:43]
danielpbarron:	since i can get heavy stuff out in bigger chunks	[15:43]
DicePower:	True	[15:43]
danielpbarron:	i can carry 48 boulders at a time	[15:43]
diana_coman:	danielpbarron> he noted that he wished he had my stats because they looked like they were better for pvp -> why would that necessarily be better for pvp? one might have higher strength but take more damage from same blow; one might have lower strength but use magic or whatevs	[15:44]
diana_coman:	I don't think it is so clear-cut	[15:44]
DicePower:	Of course, we think that Weight and Capacity are calculated via a combination of some underlying stat values.	[15:44]
DicePower:	So the real question is	[15:44]
DicePower:	Are the underlying stat values more or less important than other stat values.	[15:45]
DicePower:	i.e., do they also contribute to something else.	[15:45]
DicePower:	And of course, that's a question that may change in nature as the game evolves.	[15:45]
DicePower:	So given the assumption that we can't know which stats are the most important, as that may change many many times in the future.	[15:46]
DicePower:	Then the only question we can ask seems to be...	[15:47]
jurov:	the answer is 42	[15:47]
DicePower:	Is it better to have a more "all-around" stat distribution, or to excel at some things and suck at others.	[15:47]
DicePower:	I suspect the latter.	[15:47]
DicePower:	In general, I feel like all around characters in video games don't achieve a high tier rating in competitive settings. Agree or disagree?	[15:48]
danielpbarron:	i'd also say the latter	[15:48]
DicePower:	I'm not really thinking about MMOs even.	[15:48]
danielpbarron:	if it's anything like crafting	[15:48]
danielpbarron:	very low and very high are the best qualities	[15:49]
danielpbarron:	middle quality no so much	[15:49]
DicePower:	Oh, very low quality is better than middle quality?	[15:49]
danielpbarron:	only in that you can get more quantity of it	[15:49]
DicePower:	Ahhh	[15:49]
danielpbarron:	obviously the higher the quality the better if the price is the same	[15:49]
DicePower:	So far I think I like your idea of aiming for the lowest possible Weight and Capacity.	[15:50]
DicePower:	The question is, do we know for SURE that Weight and Capacity are calculated via these underlying stats?	[15:50]
DicePower:	Such as Strength (I imagine would be the name of one).	[15:51]
DicePower:	Of course, if Weight and Capacity are mainly based on something else...	[15:52]
DicePower:	...then it's still a good idea to maximize them.	[15:52]
DicePower:	What I can say so far it that it LOOKS like Weight and Capacity are influenced by the same something, to a reasonably strong degree.	[15:53]
DicePower:	After 21 characters, Weight and Capacity were less than 100 points off of each other in 12.	[15:53]
DicePower:	That's surprising when the range of values each can take is so large.	[15:53]
DicePower:	I would imagine that optimizing for Health would be a good thing.	[15:54]
danielpbarron:	well then it's very strange that i have the highest weight and lowest capacity	[15:54]
DicePower:	That is very strange.	[15:54]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower\x08>\x08\x0F Is it better to have a more "all-around" stat distribution, or to excel at some things and suck at others. << well, do you like being a more rounded player or do you like specific things.	[15:54]
DicePower:	My max difference between the two was just over 300.	[15:55]
mircea_popescu:	what's your definition of "competitive setting" ?	[15:55]
mircea_popescu:	eulora is a competition based on ECu. is that your definition ?	[15:56]
DicePower:	I guess I didn't have anything specific in mind. I was just brainstorming about how well rounded characters seem to be bad, even in i.e., Nintendo games.	[15:56]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower 12 tries is no sort of basis.	[15:56]
mircea_popescu:	do 10k.	[15:56]
DicePower:	21 tries :P	[15:57]
mircea_popescu:	other games are a poor basis of comparison. eulora exists specifically because all the other games suck	[15:57]
DicePower:	Would have to write a program for 10k.	[15:57]
DicePower:	hehe	[15:57]
mircea_popescu:	otherwise, i'd just have bought a nintendo. cheaper.	[15:57]
DicePower:	LOL	[15:57]
mircea_popescu:	no joke.	[15:57]
DicePower:	Oh, I thought you said, "bought Nintendo"	[15:57]
DicePower:	As much as I don't want to write a bot to do this...	[15:58]
DicePower:	It would also help AFTER figuring out the best optimization for the character.	[15:59]
DicePower:	Because it would yield more trials at actually rolling a good one.	[15:59]
diana_coman:	DicePower, one thing known without any prior tests though is that time in eulora is a resource in itself and so the earlier you get in , the more you can get done really	[16:10]
DicePower:	True	[16:10]
DicePower:	The stats could have a long term impact though, depending on whether they're passed on when you die or not.	[16:11]
mircea_popescu:	how to optimize for that!	[16:11]
DicePower:	(in full or in part)	[16:11]
DicePower:	So I think the formula for calculating a character's health total would be	[16:12]
DicePower:	(100 * numHitsTaken) / (100 - remainingHealthPercentage)	[16:13]
DicePower:	Where the remainingHealthPercentage is what's shown in the Stats and Skills menu.	[16:14]
mircea_popescu:	this presuming defense = 0	[16:14]
DicePower:	hmmmm	[16:14]
DicePower:	Well the chat shows the number of points of damage you've taken per hit.	[16:15]
DicePower:	So defense should be calculated prior to that number?	[16:15]
mircea_popescu:	didn't you quote it above ?	[16:15]
DicePower:	Quote what	[16:15]
DicePower:	?	[16:15]
mircea_popescu:	<DicePower> The glow burns you! -100 HP, BP, SP << did you say that ?	[16:16]
DicePower:	Yes	[16:16]
DicePower:	If every character's turns out to be 100.	[16:16]
mircea_popescu:	what part of it reads "This is the number of points of damage you've taken per hit : " ?	[16:16]
DicePower:	Then there is no defense?	[16:17]
DicePower:	Hmmmm	[16:17]
DicePower:	I took that to be the meaning of "-100"	[16:17]
mircea_popescu:	science is the art of not making assumptions.	[16:17]
DicePower:	Good point	[16:17]
DicePower:	In that case, it could be that the totals in Stats and Skills are NOT percentages after all.	[16:18]
mircea_popescu:	maybe it means you get -100 hp ; maybe it means you are dished 100 damage and take whatever your defense leaves for you to take. who's to know.	[16:18]
mircea_popescu:	the two are unrelated. they could be percentages or not in either case.	[16:18]
DicePower:	I don't think that's possible.	[16:18]
DicePower:	Because if they were points rather than percentages, and there was no defense, then you would die in 1 hit.	[16:19]
DicePower:	Wouldn't you need either defense, or a percentage based stat menu to live?	[16:19]
mircea_popescu:	this is true isn't it.	[16:21]
mircea_popescu:	good point.	[16:21]
mircea_popescu:	so we know for a fact it' can't be there's neither defense nor percentaging. there could be one of these, or both.	[16:21]
DicePower:	Yeah	[16:21]
DicePower:	So I need to write formulas for these two new possibilities	[16:22]
DicePower:	And see if there's a way to distinguish which one is correct	[16:22]
mircea_popescu:	a situation much akin to whether e+pi and e*pi are both irrational, or not.	[16:23]
mircea_popescu:	aaand 680k wheel.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	oh, not bad at all mircea_popescu	[16:35]
mircea_popescu:	how much does it decay, do you recall ?	[16:35]
diana_coman:	heh recall, reading from paper: 79 on the skullcap and 2273 on wheel	[16:36]
DicePower:	Okay, so if HP is a fixed 100, defense should be	[16:36]
DicePower:	100 -¹)	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	3k tools are still a long way.	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	also! oh! i have a bunch of ftp i might sell!	[17:17]
diana_coman:	ftp?	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	for cs	[17:18]
diana_coman:	oh	[17:18]
diana_coman:	actually you are right, will probably run out of lbn/screens before out of 3k tools	[17:18]
diana_coman:	possibly	[17:18]
diana_coman:	the bitch with the cs is that they decay toolkits which require tools to make + bps ugh	[17:19]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[17:19]
DicePower:	Hmm, I wonder if mircea_popescu is tinkering with the stat distribution system as I'm testing just to confuse me :P	[17:20]
mircea_popescu:	nope.	[17:21]
mircea_popescu:	but if memory serves you're not the first one	[17:21]
mircea_popescu:	or the 2nd. pretty much everyone ever seriously looking at trying to reverse the math involved thought this at some point.	[17:21]
mircea_popescu:	i have this much in common with god, i guess.	[17:21]
DicePower:	Yeah, it's just how humans look at random data I guess.	[17:21]
DicePower:	Always see patterns.	[17:22]
DicePower:	Then again, it's possible that some games do engineer their own "randomness" behind the scenes.	[17:23]
mircea_popescu:	sure.	[17:23]
DicePower:	For certain psychological reasons	[17:23]
DicePower:	There's going to be a bias in this data.	[17:24]
DicePower:	Because I'm not able to take a sample when I die.	[17:24]
DicePower:	And characters with lower health stats will die quicker.	[17:25]
mircea_popescu:	;)	[17:25]
DicePower:	I need to take less hits per test so that I'm not dying	[17:25]
DicePower:	Even if that means minor information is lost through rounding.	[17:25]
DicePower:	Anyone want to write me a bot that opens the game program, deletes your character, creates a new one, logs in, and records your Carried Weight and Capacity in an Excel Sheet for 0 PayPal? lol	[17:32]
Birdman:	Lol	[17:33]
mircea_popescu:	but lol @excel sheet. never heard of csv have we DicePower ?	[17:38]
jurov:	hi lobbes	[17:38]
DicePower:	Can offer .1 BTC instead if preferred	[17:38]
danielpbarron:	the name 'dan' is not a nickname for 'daniel' but actually predates it	[17:38]
DicePower:	If someone actually wants to do it, it wouldn't have to be absolutely perfect, I could help to debug it, but I might have a few further stipulations.	[17:39]
danielpbarron:	Dan was one of the twelve tribes of Israel (12 sons of Jacob) ; Daniel was a prophet who came much later	[17:39]
DicePower:	i.e., I would want it to be in a language and in a way I could read the code	[17:39]
mircea_popescu:	hey, .1 btc is like 10mn ECu ? not bad offer.	[17:40]
DicePower:	Since I might want to expand it.	[17:40]
jurov:	depends if you can read C++	[17:40]
mircea_popescu:	lol "i want it to be in a language"	[17:40]
mircea_popescu:	wtf would it be in, a hope ?	[17:40]
DicePower:	C++ would be great	[17:40]
jurov:	the client is writtein c++	[17:40]
DicePower:	How would you go about writing something like that, would the bot detect when your screen had updated (logged in etc.), or just wait a fixed amount of time, or?	[17:41]
danielpbarron:	you are the only one who could test it	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower really, look into how foxybot works.	[17:42]
DicePower:	I heard foxybot doesn't work at all on Windows	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	if you can read c you should be able to adjust it for your purpose.	[17:42]
danielpbarron:	LOL	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	well windows is not for people.	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	and where have you heard such ?	[17:42]
Birdman:	DicePower it works fine	[17:42]
DicePower:	Windows is actually the standard OS that comes with most computers, believe it or not >_>	[17:43]
jurov:	in the end i decided against it. i have outstanding order already to add irc/gpg auth to it, which i tend to procrastinate :(	[17:43]
jurov:	DicePower: the wiki has visual studio instructions, you're welcome to try	[17:45]
DicePower:	For Foxybot?	[17:45]
danielpbarron:	what computer "comes with" an OS??	[17:46]
DicePower:	Every one I've purchased Online or at retail stores.	[17:47]
danielpbarron:	that's like a slave girl who comes with her own ideas of how she should be tied up or something	[17:47]
danielpbarron:	last computer i bought didn't even come with a hard drive	[17:47]
DicePower:	lol	[17:48]
DicePower:	So what is the Foxybot normally used for, and what would be the general process for creating such a bot using it?	[17:50]
jurov:	for mining and crafting. and it's just a patch for source code.	[17:51]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron> what computer "comes with" an OS?? << no idea.	[17:55]
DicePower:	Probably a chromebook lol	[17:55]
DicePower:	And any Apple product	[17:56]
danielpbarron:	they sometimes come with boxes and films of plastic over the screen; these too must be removed before actual use	[17:56]
DicePower:	Ohhhh discovery	[17:56]
jurov:	you can still build desktop out of the parts, without OS	[17:56]
DicePower:	You don't die when you lose all your spirit lol	[17:56]
danielpbarron:	i usualy have 0 spirit	[17:56]
DicePower:	Yeah I didn't get it back this time	[17:57]
jurov:	back to eulora - how comes petrified feelings are not worth even an ecu? it am getting only one per ~40 ecu overcraft on average	[17:57]
jurov:	if it's so, it's sad...	[17:58]
danielpbarron:	i have a few hundred thousand of those damn things	[17:59]
danielpbarron:	no more noob crafting from this guy!	[17:59]
mircea_popescu:	jurov recall tghe discussion about the coinage in eulora ?	[18:00]
mircea_popescu:	guess what an item with bv 10 is worth at q 5 ?	[18:00]
jurov:	but they are q 97, i am not a noob	[18:00]
DicePower:	How do you get spirit back?	[18:01]
jurov:	oh foxy sold you low q feeelings?	[18:01]
danielpbarron:	that's a good question	[18:01]
danielpbarron:	after a server reset i think i have full spirit again	[18:01]
Birdman:	it comes and goes, i think alot of the time it just says its not there graphically but it might be	[18:01]
DicePower:	lol	[18:01]
danielpbarron:	so just figure out a reliable way to crash the server :p	[18:01]
DicePower:	So I have to crash the server every time I die in order to avoid a death bias in my data :P	[18:02]
danielpbarron:	i know a way to crash it but it's prohibitively expensive	[18:02]
DicePower:	I'll just eat the bais	[18:03]
DicePower:	bias	[18:03]
DicePower:	Interesting	[18:04]
DicePower:	Tab moves your cursor from the Firstname field to the Lastname field in character creation, but Shift + Tab does not move it backward.	[18:05]
DicePower:	Do Blood and Spirit do anything?	[18:08]
danielpbarron:	blood might have to do with dieing	[18:10]
DicePower:	I'm thinking that losing all Blood also kills you, but hard to say because if so it also moves the Health bar to 0.	[18:10]
danielpbarron:	both blood and health go down when i explore barehanded	[18:10]
DicePower:	I'm having a hard time decoupling the two strongly enough, but I'm sure I'll get a character where they can be.	[18:10]
DicePower:	Only Health seems to be lost when dying from a fall.	[18:13]
DicePower:	But when you come back to life, Blood is restored	[18:14]
DicePower:	So might want to shoot for high health, high blood, low spirit	[18:15]
DicePower:	But who knows what spirit is/will be used for.	[18:15]
mircea_popescu:	well, so why not high blood and spirit low health	[18:16]
DicePower:	Because Health will certainly be important?	[18:16]
DicePower:	For once death is permanent.	[18:17]
DicePower:	Would mean longer lives	[18:17]
mircea_popescu:	would it ?	[18:17]
DicePower:	I take it that you die when you hit 0 health.	[18:17]
DicePower:	Unless it's only been blood killing me all along.	[18:18]
mircea_popescu:	you'll die when you hit 0 any of those.	[18:18]
DicePower:	Including spirit	[18:18]
DicePower:	okay	[18:18]
mircea_popescu:	a spear or a hammer just as capable of killing you, right ?	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	whether they break your bones or drain your spleen.	[18:19]
DicePower:	true	[18:19]
DicePower:	But I think of all of those as "health" related :P	[18:19]
danielpbarron:	wait so 0 stamina == death?	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	this is nice and good for you.	[18:19]
danielpbarron:	or spirit?	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron nah.	[18:19]
danielpbarron:	i've walked around with spirit	[18:19]
danielpbarron:	ok	[18:19]
danielpbarron:	right now i have 52 spirit for some reason	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	the stamina thing will just be that you can't do stuff.	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	such as cast or move.	[18:20]
DicePower:	Think we're saying that 0 Spirit WILL yield death.	[18:20]
DicePower:	in the future	[18:20]
DicePower:	There does seem to be some correlation between Health, Blood, and Stamina.	[18:30]
DicePower:	Once again, I'm thinking they are calculated using some, but not all, of the same underlying stats.	[18:30]
DicePower:	That's a positive correlation oft	[18:30]
DicePower:	ofc	[18:30]
DicePower:	I can't tell if there a correlation one way or the other between Weight/Capacity and Health/Blood/Spirit.	[18:31]
DicePower:	I would expect there to be a negative one.	[18:31]
mircea_popescu:	well... can always run some data and see.	[18:32]
DicePower:	Yup, been working on that haha	[18:33]
danielpbarron:	i'm surprised you got as far as you did	[18:33]
danielpbarron:	i mostly ignore all the things you take an interest in	[18:33]
DicePower:	:)	[18:33]
DicePower:	I wouldn't be so interested except that I feel if I don't get it right now, there won't be another chance	[18:33]
danielpbarron:	well you already got one of the biggest things not right	[18:34]
danielpbarron:	but not being around for the beginning	[18:34]
diana_coman:	DicePower, question is: what IS getting it "right" now?	[18:34]
danielpbarron:	by not*	[18:34]
DicePower:	diana_coman: Yup, that's the million dollar question.	[18:35]
danielpbarron:	you could have seen all the stats without all this weirdness	[18:35]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron apparently eulora is many things to many people, what can you say.	[18:35]
DicePower:	Yeah, I wish I had been here sooner.	[18:35]
DicePower:	I feel like I'm pretty early though.	[18:35]
danielpbarron:	and you could have sat by the murky waters all day and night collecting items that i would now probably pay 1 mn copper each for	[18:35]
DicePower:	It's hard to find these games when they're completely fresh.	[18:36]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron crazy how that went huh.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	oh danielpbarron want some of those still?	[18:36]
diana_coman:	I prolly still have some	[18:36]
danielpbarron:	of course i still want those	[18:36]
danielpbarron:	although now that i can't make supplications idk	[18:36]
danielpbarron:	where were you a week ago!?	[18:36]
diana_coman:	clearly not in your mind to see you wanted those so badly, lol	[18:37]
danielpbarron:	pretty sure i asked in channel about buying various skill items	[18:37]
danielpbarron:	only managed to get some duct tape in an auction	[18:37]
diana_coman:	I remember you asked for duct tape for sure; don't know about the rest but doesn't matter now anyway	[18:38]
diana_coman:	and no, I don't have duct tape, lol	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	ok, server will come down in ~5 minutes, for some minor fixes.	[18:38]
danielpbarron:	ack	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	expected downtime ~5 minutes	[18:38]
danielpbarron:	i would buy 1 chicken scribbling	[18:41]
danielpbarron:	that i could use	[18:41]
danielpbarron:	the rest i have more somethings than supplications	[18:42]
danielpbarron:	although i suppose i'd buy as many as you have for 100k each	[18:43]
diana_coman:	heh, for 100k I'd rather keep them	[18:43]
danielpbarron:	well yeah	[18:43]
danielpbarron:	but the single chicken thing, 1 mn?	[18:43]
diana_coman:	yeah, I can do that	[18:44]
diana_coman:	good luck	[18:45]
danielpbarron:	thanks	[18:45]
mircea_popescu:	merchant/storage now fixed to show correct bv.	[19:01]
danielpbarron:	!!!	[19:01]
mircea_popescu:	what ?	[19:01]
danielpbarron:	cool!	[19:02]
danielpbarron:	although ironically this will make it harder to price things	[19:02]
mircea_popescu:	:)	[19:02]
mircea_popescu:	hahahaha	[19:02]
diana_coman:	wanted to say that we prolly got used to it by now	[19:02]
mircea_popescu:	anyone got a large pile of high q pss ?	[19:03]
mircea_popescu:	the nosehairs still cracking me up	[19:06]
Birdman:	mircea_popescu what would ya sell some shredding instructions for?	[19:35]
mircea_popescu:	uh.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu:	200\% ?	[19:35]
Birdman:	hmmm	[19:36]
Birdman:	well what q are they in the first place?	[19:36]
Birdman:	and can i pay you for those bouq books?	[19:39]
Birdman:	if anyone is interested in stacks of cft bps ranging between q 30-40 im selling, 18ecu per	[19:58]
danielpbarron:	yeah i'll buy a stack	[20:01]
danielpbarron:	how many you got?	[20:01]
Birdman:	~50k of em	[20:01]
Birdman:	just 9999?	[20:02]
danielpbarron:	nah i'll take it all i guess	[20:03]
Birdman:	mircea_popescu diana_coman do i smell an auction?	[20:03]
danielpbarron:	glares	[20:03]
Birdman:	Demand suddenly skyrocketed	[20:04]
danielpbarron:	then don't wait till after you quote a price and someone accepts it to start an auction	[20:04]
Birdman:	im entirely not concerned with etiquette in business	[20:05]
danielpbarron:	savage	[20:05]
Birdman:	Auctioning 279 stone adze bps q44, 15 cruddy hoe bps q39, 31 stone pick bps q38 starting at 325k ending in 24 hours	[20:15]
danielpbarron:	325k here	[20:16]
Birdman:	325k heard danielpbarron // do you want to do that cs deal orr.. gonna be afk for a bit so i wanna set the bot up	[20:18]
danielpbarron:	what deal	[20:18]
Birdman:	9 cs uses for 10 cs	[20:19]
danielpbarron:	i really want pacademia nut ords	[20:22]
danielpbarron:	or smalls even	[20:24]
danielpbarron:	less than 50 smalls might just do it	[20:25]
Birdman:	i can run cs on it for you	[20:26]
Birdman:	but the hit r8 isnt so gr8	[20:26]
danielpbarron:	well last time you tried you said it was a bunch of misses	[20:26]
Birdman:	0/2	[20:26]
danielpbarron:	what if you hit it with adzes?	[20:26]
Birdman:	you supplyin the adzes?	[20:26]
danielpbarron:	maybe	[20:27]
danielpbarron:	can you test first	[20:27]
Birdman:	not wasting my own tools for testing that	[20:27]
Birdman:	and the bot wouldnt lock em	[20:27]
danielpbarron:	i'll give you 1 adze for whatever the result of using it is	[20:27]
danielpbarron:	just edit the source code	[20:27]
danielpbarron:	it's a simple fix	[20:27]
Birdman:	alright	[20:27]
danielpbarron:	lol	[20:27]
Birdman:	but itd take me a bit to figure it out	[20:28]
Birdman:	can you tell me what to edit?	[20:28]
danielpbarron:	that would be well worth figuring out	[20:28]
danielpbarron:	yeah it's just one line that you add	[20:28]
danielpbarron:	the if statement is already there it just doesn't do anything	[20:28]
DicePower:	Found a character that dies instantly to the orb.	[20:42]
DicePower:	It takes 2 hits, but the orb seems to hit twice at once (sometimes thrice).	[20:42]
Birdman:	how much hp loss? we all have the same hp	[20:42]
Birdman:	says on the main chat window	[20:42]
DicePower:	Is that X/100 a percentage though?	[20:42]
DicePower:	We either have different defenses, or that number is being expressed as a percentage, and we have different healths.	[20:43]
danielpbarron:	Birdman, apparently we don't	[20:43]
danielpbarron:	as DicePower has figured out	[20:43]
DicePower:	From what I can tell from the brief moment the HP jump to before dying, I took 64\% Health, 55\% Blood, and 30\% Spirit per hit.	[20:44]
DicePower:	I'll put it this way.	[20:44]
Birdman:	whaat thats crazy	[20:44]
Birdman:	good find	[20:44]
DicePower:	Some characters take 2 hits to die to the orb (well this was the first character that died THAT quickly).	[20:44]
DicePower:	Some take 8.	[20:44]
DicePower:	So there's a HUGE range.	[20:44]
Birdman:	8?? mine takes 3 iirc	[20:45]
DicePower:	Based just on the character's stats.	[20:45]
DicePower:	Which are invisible	[20:45]
DicePower:	lol	[20:45]
DicePower:	That's WAAAAY more influential than IVs are in Pokemon :P	[20:45]
DicePower:	For health, some characters take as little as 7\% per hit, some take 64.	[20:46]
danielpbarron:	yeah i die pretty fast at the orb	[20:46]
danielpbarron:	not one hit, but not 8	[20:46]
DicePower:	For blood, the range is like 13 - 55 so far.	[20:47]
DicePower:	That's from 17 samples.	[20:47]
DicePower:	As you gain skill, I assume you improve upon your base defensive ability?	[20:48]
DicePower:	So that it takes more hits to kill you now, than when you first started playing?	[20:49]
danielpbarron:	nobody has those skills yet	[20:49]
DicePower:	Ahhhh	[20:50]
DicePower:	So shifting gears a bit, what are the main activities in Eulora (that would likely be influenced by underlying stats)? I know there's mining and crafting.	[20:51]
danielpbarron:	we have : gathering, tinkering, building. sortage, mining, farming, lumberjack. mcguyvering, bouqinism, lapidary, gung-ho gumbo. sacrifice.	[20:51]
DicePower:	Woah	[20:51]
DicePower:	Nice	[20:51]
danielpbarron:	sortage mining farming and lumberjack are sorta sub-skills that enhance other skills	[20:52]
danielpbarron:	mostly building	[20:52]
danielpbarron:	but sortage also goes with tinkering	[20:52]
DicePower:	Are there any of these that are more amenable to full automation than others? Or is it expected that they can all be performed even AFK, once FoxyBot is fully developed?	[20:52]
danielpbarron:	mcguyver, bouqinism, lapidary, and gung-ho are effected by tinkering and go each with their own different crafting table	[20:53]
danielpbarron:	i think so far they could theoretically be automated but i doubt sacrifice is	[20:53]
danielpbarron:	just me and one other have it, and each click is so expensive it's kinda like a ritual to even do it	[20:54]
danielpbarron:	plus the bigger sacrifices take hours anyway	[20:54]
DicePower:	Okay	[20:54]
DicePower:	I ask because in other games, I've tended toward professions that can be skilled/performed while away from the computer.	[20:55]
DicePower:	This usually equals crafting, at least in the case of Entropia.	[20:55]
DicePower:	Whereas, say, mining requires constant user interaction.	[20:55]
danielpbarron:	no we automate even that	[20:56]
DicePower:	Just wasn't sure how the different activities in this game were set up in terms of being suitable for automation.	[20:56]
danielpbarron:	although i don't know how easy that'll be when ennumerations aren't free anymore	[20:56]
danielpbarron:	well building alone isn't automated yet	[20:57]
danielpbarron:	but if you build while gathering it is	[20:57]
DicePower:	So the only barrier to automation is whether you have the funds to run the bot continuously?	[20:57]
danielpbarron:	yeah pretty much	[20:57]
DicePower:	Gathering is automated?	[20:57]
danielpbarron:	with foxybot yeah	[20:58]
DicePower:	Sweet	[20:58]
danielpbarron:	you can even do it barehanded for free	[20:58]
danielpbarron:	since death isn't permanent	[20:58]
DicePower:	And I imagine the thing or two that isn't will be at some point.	[20:58]
danielpbarron:	it knows to /die when your health gets too low	[20:58]
danielpbarron:	the only limit is yours or anyones ability to modify the client source code	[20:58]
danielpbarron:	eventually there'll probably be a shopbot for people who just want to buy/sell things all day while they are away	[20:59]
DicePower:	So that's good news, although it doesn't give me any ideas on how I might want to personalize my character's stats :P	[20:59]
danielpbarron:	yeah i don't know what to even recommend	[20:59]
DicePower:	How about the scalability of each activity in the game?	[21:00]
DicePower:	So like	[21:00]
DicePower:	If you somehow find a way to profit at something	[21:00]
danielpbarron:	i guess maybe we need more gatherers? since us high rank tinkerers are still paying crazy high (in my opinion) prices for harvestables	[21:00]
danielpbarron:	although that slag went for a lot today too	[21:00]
danielpbarron:	so maybe we need more low rank tinkerers	[21:01]
DicePower:	If you somehow manage to find a particular activity profitable, are there some activities that lend themselves to playing at higher stakes than others?	[21:01]
danielpbarron:	i think maybe we need a spectrum of tinkerers so that the products can get passed up the line or something	[21:01]
danielpbarron:	well sacrifice is the highest stakes	[21:02]
danielpbarron:	each click costs millions	[21:02]
DicePower:	So each activity has only a single stakes option?	[21:02]
danielpbarron:	that's where new skills come from	[21:02]
danielpbarron:	the stakes are simply what value you put into it	[21:02]
danielpbarron:	and in sacrfice, there's expensive wine, expensive skill items, expensive altar use	[21:03]
mircea_popescu:	Birdman> and can i pay you for those bouq books? << kinda not wanting to burn bps now lol	[21:03]
danielpbarron:	in tinkering you can tune the stakes way down to only a few copper a click probably	[21:03]
danielpbarron:	although with blueprint shortage, who knows	[21:03]
DicePower:	Okay, so if you find yourself profiting per hour doing some activity, you can arbitrarily choose to ten-fold your bet size doing the same exact activity, yielding a 0/hour profit (assuming you can still find buyers for what you're producing)?	[21:04]
DicePower:	And there's no real limit to the scaling in any activity?	[21:04]
danielpbarron:	uh.. no	[21:05]
DicePower:	(other than supply and demand)	[21:05]
danielpbarron:	stake isn't the right word to use probably	[21:05]
DicePower:	okay	[21:05]
danielpbarron:	this isn't gambling in the slot machine sense	[21:06]
DicePower:	Got it	[21:06]
danielpbarron:	the game is supposedly balanced to where it all evens out	[21:06]
DicePower:	Base value wise	[21:06]
danielpbarron:	the 'house' makes money when you mess up, and i guess in the future it will sell drinks	[21:06]
DicePower:	Let me try another analogy and see if it has any application in this game.	[21:07]
danielpbarron:	sometimes you mix two piles of different quality and it rounds down. you just lost value. the shareholders of s.mg get the value	[21:07]
DicePower:	If I'm playing a game where I hunt creatures for loot.	[21:07]
DicePower:	ahhh	[21:08]
danielpbarron:	yeah that's gonna be a crazy balancing act. the loot from mosters balanced with your odds of getting hit and having to pay to heal up	[21:09]
DicePower:	If there is a game where you hunt creatures (for a cost) and receive loot (the payback), and you're using a certain weapon on a certain creature, you might, on average, lose per hour, or profit per hour (random numbers). By getting a new weapon with increased damage per second, you can kill the same creature faster, and maybe double the outcome to a loss of per hour in the first case, or a profit of per hour	[21:11]
DicePower:	in the other case.	[21:11]
DicePower:	Is there an analogy to the damage per second upgrade in Eulora?	[21:11]
DicePower:	Or would you have to change activities completely, or use a blueprint for a different item for example, in order to spend more per hour?	[21:13]
danielpbarron:	what you said sounds about right	[21:14]
danielpbarron:	in gathering we have a range of tools to use	[21:14]
DicePower:	Does it depend on the activity at all?	[21:14]
danielpbarron:	basic tools, improved tools, and chetty sticks	[21:14]
danielpbarron:	sorta	[21:14]
DicePower:	Or it sounds right for every activity?	[21:14]
danielpbarron:	there are three different basics and three different improved	[21:14]
danielpbarron:	and the hypothesis so far is each of the three tools coresponds to each of the three sub-skills to gathering	[21:15]
DicePower:	interesting	[21:15]
danielpbarron:	that is: cruddy hoe -> farming, stone pickaxe -> mining, stone adze -> lumberjack	[21:15]
danielpbarron:	they all work on whichever thing your are gathering	[21:15]
danielpbarron:	but i think you get better results if you use the right one	[21:16]
danielpbarron:	i also think barehanded is best for basics	[21:16]
danielpbarron:	basics are effected by the sortage skill	[21:16]
danielpbarron:	i guess noobs can profit using tools on basics, but i have a high rank in gathering and i get pretty good results with no tool	[21:17]
danielpbarron:	maybe even the highest rank, unclear if anyone overtook me yet	[21:17]
danielpbarron:	but i was first to 400 :D	[21:17]
DicePower:	Nice :)	[21:18]
danielpbarron:	we get the skill book named after us if we are first to a multiple of 200	[21:19]
danielpbarron:	that's the only one i got so far	[21:19]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron> eventually there'll probably be a shopbot for people who just want to buy/sell things all day while they are away << irc this project was even specced in the logs, and of course there's a reward for completion.	[21:19]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower> Let me try another analogy and see if it has any application in this game. << you know you could just actually try playing for a few hours/days/whatever	[21:21]
mircea_popescu:	rather than doing this bizarre abstract fandango	[21:21]
DicePower:	What's a "playing" in this game?	[21:22]
mircea_popescu:	i dunno, go mine, or craft something	[21:22]
DicePower:	It's a vicious cycle :P	[21:23]
mircea_popescu:	for instance i'm making charcoal atm. danielpbarron is probably mining or cutting wood or something	[21:23]
mircea_popescu:	or fucking with the storage by the looks of it lol	[21:23]
DicePower:	hehe	[21:24]
DicePower:	So when your character dies, do you keep your items/BTC/skills if and only if you had a child?	[21:25]
DicePower:	Once death is permanent I mean.	[21:26]
mircea_popescu:	atm you keep everything anyway	[21:26]
mircea_popescu:	well no, you keep whatever the child got.	[21:26]
danielpbarron:	i'm messing with storage a lot it seems	[21:26]
DicePower:	So you lose your BTCs and items on the dead character?	[21:26]
mircea_popescu:	yep.	[21:26]
DicePower:	Can you just trade them all to the child before death	[21:27]
DicePower:	?	[21:27]
mircea_popescu:	sure.	[21:27]
mircea_popescu:	the normal mode for most people would be to promote a kid to the clan leadership and send the old guy to smoke opium or something.	[21:27]
mircea_popescu:	most people wouldn't normally be spending that much time in the face of life danger.	[21:27]
mircea_popescu:	well, unless a town is sacked or something.	[21:27]
DicePower:	Okay, so you won't die from falling 3 feet like you do now :D	[21:28]
mircea_popescu:	nah.	[21:28]
mircea_popescu:	and combat won't be the usual mmorpg sort, either.	[21:28]
DicePower:	I guess the point of death is so that skills can't be traded over and no one ever gets too much skill in the game.	[21:28]
mircea_popescu:	skills will actually be tradeable, as an application of magic / faith.	[21:29]
DicePower:	ohhh	[21:29]
danielpbarron:	well now..	[21:30]
DicePower:	So really, the only thing you're losing are your inherent stats.	[21:30]
mircea_popescu:	"and here's your father's anal beads. stick them in, learn what he kn ew."	[21:30]
danielpbarron:	this convo almost feels qntrable	[21:30]
mircea_popescu:	:)	[21:30]
mircea_popescu:	DicePower not exactly lose, either. they mingle with the mother's to make the kid in thefirst place.	[21:30]
DicePower:	Hmmmm	[21:31]
mircea_popescu:	danielpbarron yeah, the plan is that there's this magical gem, you do the right chanting/cast the right spell, whoop your tinkering skill is now inside.	[21:32]
mircea_popescu:	some costs / lossage involved in the process, but principally speaking - there you go.	[21:32]
DicePower:	So is it possible to end up, several generations later, with a completely different stat distribution, or do you have to delete your character and start over if you wanted to have one that was built for a different task?	[21:32]
mircea_popescu:	i would expect it's possible yes.	[21:33]
DicePower:	What does the average life expectancy look like?	[21:33]
mircea_popescu:	bout two years. aka 104 game years.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu:	maybe a little under.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu:	depends how well you eat.	[21:34]
DicePower:	Okay, and if you go into dangerous areas could be killed instantly ofc.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu:	yes, if you're insane enough to just wander into mordor, you'll go splat.	[21:35]
DicePower:	So I feel like Health, Blood, and Spirit are probably indeed very important areas to optimize.	[21:35]
DicePower:	You said that spirit = 0 will cause death in the future, right?	[21:35]
mircea_popescu:	depends how much time you plan to spend in harm's way.	[21:35]
mircea_popescu:	a crafter wouldn't muich care.	[21:35]
hanbot:	<mircea_popescu> for instance i'm making charcoal atm. danielpbarron is probably mining or cutting wood or something << i'm dragging boulders!	[21:35]
mircea_popescu:	hey hanbot what q pss do you make ?	[21:36]
hanbot:	100 even	[21:37]
mircea_popescu:	meh!	[21:37]
DicePower:	So even for a crafter, if he's out exploring, or something unexpected happens (or a programming glitch for that matter lol), it seems like having higher health/blood gives you significantly more time to get out of harm's way.	[21:37]
hanbot:	aww	[21:38]
DicePower:	Like up to a factor of 4x at least.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu:	an important aspect here is that as game progresses, you'll be building retinues etc.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu:	might as well hire a bunch of npc servants.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu:	or whatever, become a lich and raise the dead.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu:	the game intends to be versatile.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu:	but in general - a player determined enough should be able to build his own fucking castle. especially if coming from a rich clan and so on.	[21:39]
DicePower:	Ohh, so death might not be 100\% permanent?	[21:39]
mircea_popescu:	nothing is 100\%.	[21:39]
DicePower:	There might be revivals and such	[21:39]
DicePower:	Nice	[21:39]
DicePower:	So if you died with 5 BTC in hand.	[21:39]
mircea_popescu:	there's a number of transforms that make you immortal planned. they however.... come with drawbacks.	[21:39]
DicePower:	There's hope to get it back.	[21:39]
mircea_popescu:	mno.	[21:40]
DicePower:	So this sounds pretty cool	[21:41]
mircea_popescu:	the best plan is to die in controlled circumstances.	[21:41]
DicePower:	It's making the stat personalization harder lol	[21:42]
DicePower:	But it sounds cool	[21:42]
mircea_popescu:	that's the plan	[21:43]
DicePower:	Do you think a character might find a way to alter their own hidden stats someday?	[21:44]
mircea_popescu:	well at the very least find out to some degree what they are.	[21:44]
DicePower:	Or is that foundational to a character	[21:44]
DicePower:	Well yeah	[21:45]
mircea_popescu:	there's no telling what powerful artefacts lie hidden in the close embrace of the earth.	[21:45]
DicePower:	hehe	[21:45]
DicePower:	I think a character can tell what they are in a few days plotting data points in Excel :)	[21:45]
mircea_popescu:	well... do that, show it off, we'll see how it goes.	[21:46]
DicePower:	If they have the funds to test everything	[21:46]
mircea_popescu:	lol.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu:	considering people have been testing for months now, and spent in excess of a billion doing so... your thought is unpersuasive.	[21:46]
DicePower:	oh wow	[21:47]
DicePower:	Are you talking about figuring out the loot formula?	[21:47]
DicePower:	Because that I could see.	[21:47]
mircea_popescu:	and for all that trouble it's not clear a single question has in fact been answered	[21:47]
mircea_popescu:	or even validated.	[21:47]
mircea_popescu:	mno, i'm talking about simpler things such as "what is the fair price for this here item".	[21:47]
DicePower:	ahhh	[21:48]
mircea_popescu:	you really should read the logs, a wealth of info in there.	[21:48]
DicePower:	Definitely will before too long, I've already read most of the things that were linked to me.	[21:48]
DicePower:	Would be interesting to see if a character dies of old age, how long they can live again once revived.	[21:49]
mircea_popescu:	so i'm making poc q 144. so far in 75 clicks on q202 bundle i got ... 0 extra items.	[21:50]
mircea_popescu:	this fuckiung blows.	[21:50]
DicePower:	:(	[21:50]
mircea_popescu:	revived ?	[21:55]
DicePower:	"or whatever, become a lich and raise the dead."	[21:56]
mircea_popescu:	if the lich happens to raise your auntie, it would be as a npc zombie or somesuch.	[21:56]
DicePower:	Ohhh, what did you mean by the best plan it do die in controlled circumstances then?	[21:57]
mircea_popescu:	that you won't lose much by dying in your own bed.	[21:57]
DicePower:	You lose everything that you didn't trade, don't you?	[21:58]
mircea_popescu:	myeah.	[21:58]
Birdman:	welp i books or no books i guess i should be shredding huh	[23:08]
Birdman:	ill buy em at 200\% mircea_popescu	[23:08]
Birdman:	diana_coman if i were to leave the bot to gather close to the trainer, would it train?	[23:08]
mircea_popescu:	how many do you want ?	[23:15]
Birdman:	526	[23:20]
danielpbarron:	blinks	[23:20]
mircea_popescu:	aite lemme fish them out	[23:20]
danielpbarron:	i guess i lost track of what was offered. otherwise that sounds like a whole coin. and I don't mean the million coin	[23:21]
mircea_popescu:	ok trade me	[23:22]
mircea_popescu:	526 * 172 * 1.86 * 2 = 336555.84	[23:23]
mircea_popescu:	enjoy	[23:24]
Birdman:	tyvm	[23:25]
Birdman:	hella expensive bits im about to make though huh	[23:25]
mircea_popescu:	well, 526 bps should create 27089 bits.	[23:26]
mircea_popescu:	so that's ~12.5 copper per bit from the cost of recipes.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu:	figure another... 40 or so from the tool i guess ?	[23:27]
Birdman:	yeah forgot they are in the ingreds too :s	[23:27]
Birdman:	not to mention the rest of the bps cost	[23:27]
mircea_popescu:	yeh. shredding suddenly a rather expensive activity. AGAIN.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu:	hopefully people took advantage of the niche of abundance made hughe lbn stacks.	[23:28]
Birdman:	might even hold off, wanted to be able to bare handed build tinies but my q output will just make it a loss. Was thinking with the bouq books the bit q would be enough to over craft decent on something like grass, then tinker into threads for a profit	[23:29]
Birdman:	no books means not high enough q bits	[23:29]
mircea_popescu:	well... you could barehanded build every OTHER tiny.	[23:31]
Birdman:	idk man, i just dont know	[23:31]
Birdman:	alot has changed, gonna scheme a bit and see where my effort is best used at the moment	[23:32]
mircea_popescu:	see cuz key gives you a lbn	[23:33]
Birdman:	oh ya ya no kiddin	[23:34]
Birdman:	but teh bot drops em	[23:34]
Birdman:	for now im burning the rest of my tools on grass to tinker some threads, then in the meantime maybe theres some new bouq stuff i can start doing or get my gathering high enough to bare handed smalls or somethin	[23:35]
danielpbarron:	Birdman> but the bot drops em << you can tell it not to	[23:37]
danielpbarron:	flip the '1' to a '0'	[23:37]
danielpbarron:	and you don't need to do every other to get keys	[23:37]
danielpbarron:	you get the key regardless of whether you build the claim	[23:38]
Birdman:	yeah	[23:38]
danielpbarron:	so at the moment barehanded gathering can be a totally zero input thing	[23:38]
danielpbarron:	free money basically	[23:38]
danielpbarron:	you just need a buffer of bits for however many keys you can hold at once	[23:39]
danielpbarron:	when inventory is full, relog and repeat	[23:39]
danielpbarron:	you can also follow me around as i go; saving keys is too much of a pain for me	[23:39]
danielpbarron:	free keys in my claims	[23:39]
mircea_popescu:	oh yeah good point.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu:	pretty reasonable 0 cost options for players.	[23:43]
danielpbarron:	it's not unlike mining bitcoin, in that it's probably more cost effective to just buy some (in this case, coppers)	[23:59]

100 - remainingHealth) / numHitsTaken) [16:37] diana_coman: so you got about 300 clicks on that wheel mircea_popescu [16:37] mircea_popescu: nb!\ [16:38] diana_coman: wanted to ask mircea_popescu : when would be the earliest you could make some tools with everything provided (even bps if needed) and under what terms? thinking of 200 basic tools kind of run [16:39] mircea_popescu: mmm [16:40] mircea_popescu: basics or imps ? [16:40] mircea_popescu: overcraft or undercraft ? [16:40] diana_coman: basics, undercraft [16:41] diana_coman: I don't see how I could provide shaped slag for you to overcraft really [16:41] mircea_popescu: then i'll take 125\% the added value. [16:43] jurov: diana_coman: i have some q97 slag, want? [16:44] diana_coman: so 1.25*(total base value result - total base value provided)? and when ? [16:44] diana_coman: jurov, what do you want for it? [16:44] mircea_popescu: diana_coman well in general speaking it'd take a while, but since i perceive an obligation to the public welfare and tools are a major priority, i'd stick a few hundred in the queue so it's done in a day or two. [16:45] jurov: diana_coman: 850 per [16:46] diana_coman: aha, that's kind of the thing that given the lack of tools overall I'm really reluctant to lose the 25\% of durability due to my crafting it as otherwise I could just do them of course [16:46] mircea_popescu: myeah. [16:46] diana_coman: but sounds good, will just run the numbers to have everything clear and then put together the pack [16:46] mircea_popescu: note that the bps do count in the value provided bracket. [16:46] diana_coman: yes [16:46] diana_coman: jurov that might work if you have a large quantity really [16:48] diana_coman: how much slag do you have? [16:48] jurov: 4300 [16:49] diana_coman: cool, I'll take it [16:49] diana_coman: give me 5 minutes to get back to town as I just started a stick [16:49] DicePower: Well, Health, Blood, and Spirit are not all affected by only the same underlying stats. [16:54] DicePower: So Health, Blood, and Spirit (either defense, maximum, or both) may all be separate stats, or calculated by separate underlying stats. [16:56] DicePower: This magnifies the difficulty of the problem. [16:56] diana_coman: jurov, ready [16:58] mircea_popescu: \x08<\x08DicePower\x08>\x08\x0F This magnifies the difficulty of the problem. << famous last words. [16:59] DicePower: So I think decoupling Health and Defense from a single source of damage is going to be impossible. [16:59] jurov: diana_coman: 3683050 [16:59] diana_coman: hm, got change from 4mn? [16:59] jurov: yes [16:59] DicePower: So there are 2 options to proceed. [17:00] jurov: 316950 = 320k [17:01] DicePower: Either find a second source of damage that deals maybe 50 instead of 100. [17:01] diana_coman: gave you 3k back jurov it's ok [17:01] diana_coman: thanks [17:01] jurov: thx [17:01] DicePower: Or setting for a results based measure of Health, Blood, and Spirit. [17:02] DicePower: *settling [17:02] jurov: these hoes wear too quickly, looking forward to new tools [17:02] diana_coman: heh, they do, don't they [17:02] diana_coman: btw, do you have any tool bps for sale? [17:02] jurov: also, noobmining position open [17:02] jurov: sure, what kind? [17:02] diana_coman: pretty much all kinds as I don't mind larger stocks at all [17:03] diana_coman: but it depends on what you want for them, of course [17:03] jurov: i have 3k basic pickaxes and only few hoes/adzes/cs [17:04] jurov: and i generally ask 2x basic value for bps [17:04] diana_coman: basic value you mean base value adjusted for q? [17:04] jurov: not adjusted [17:04] mircea_popescu: so q 200 value then ? [17:04] diana_coman: o.o [17:04] jurov: yes [17:05] diana_coman: q200 value for a q7 bp? [17:05] mircea_popescu: wowza. [17:05] mircea_popescu: 3k\% [17:05] diana_coman: quite wowza [17:05] diana_coman: guess I'm not that desperate [17:05] mircea_popescu: we gotta get that line unstuck o.O [17:05] diana_coman: or not yet, lol [17:05] jurov: they are not q7, and quality does not matter when crafting, does it? [17:05] diana_coman: but I clearly have to take that into account for any pricing of tools I sell [17:05] mircea_popescu: i must say, i can see where he's coming from. [17:05] diana_coman: jurov, as you can see above it does matter in that I have to pay more to get the tool [17:05] jurov: also, when i overcrafted them i got only ~30\% of the difference [17:06] jurov: so i should be asking 3x [17:06] jurov: not 2x [17:06] diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I'm not contesting anything, just noticing that I'll have to reflect that in amount I ask for a tool I sell [17:06] mircea_popescu: yeah. [17:06] jurov: so? you'll sell the hoes for 17k instead of 15. world will not end thee. [17:07] diana_coman: prolly I'll end up selling tools for bp+coppers or something [17:07] diana_coman: lol [17:07] diana_coman: jurov, calmly, nobody threatened the end of the world [17:07] danielpbarron: jurov, how about 5 mn for the lot? [17:07] jurov: for 3k pickaxe plans? can be [17:09] danielpbarron: and the few others, but i guess it's not a critical difference [17:09] diana_coman: jurov, what q are they in the end? [17:09] jurov: 72 [17:09] diana_coman: oh, not that bad [17:10] jurov: i'll keep the others, might get handy [17:10] diana_coman: at q72 I'll take them then [17:10] jurov: for what? [17:11] jurov: at 2x base it comes out 5.61m [17:11] diana_coman: yes, for that [17:11] jurov: ok, selling to foxy then. [17:12] diana_coman: trade me when ready [17:12] diana_coman: uhm, lol, either that or I need change [17:13] diana_coman: or I owe you the 10k [17:13] diana_coman: jurov, ? [17:13] jurov: have some cft for 10k handy? [17:13] jurov: if, then that [17:13] diana_coman: 120q at 125\% is good? [17:14] jurov: yes [17:14] diana_coman: I'll need to take it out though [17:14] diana_coman: ok, will do [17:14] diana_coman: uhm, that's 37 cft jurov, ok? [17:15] jurov: ok :) [17:15] diana_coman: thanks [17:15] diana_coman: no imp bps I gather? [17:16] jurov: none [17:16] diana_coman: oh well, will explore barehanded if nothing else in the end : ↩

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#eulora Logs for 15 Feb 2016

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