Day changed to 2026-03-01
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im kind of lost
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[01:29] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[01:29] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.87 -18.81 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: now im on the aged lane of remorse
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: im so lost
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: how can i get back to ppp D:
[08:04] Raphael Nethersmell: Felicia Solecrimp, you're 2 sectors to the left of ppp. go to x=500 to cross into funky hammock of glum and then x=500 to get back to ppp
[17:52] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: you should also be able to press 'p' to view the map of sectors you discovered so far
Day changed to 2026-03-02
[04:33] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the saturine lane of inevitatibility
[04:34] Felicia Solecrimp: im panicking a little
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: okay im i the funny hammcok of glum
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: somehow
[08:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, different trainers will have their own training skill/ability as it were, so possibly Faith Kidneyguard is less experienced yet hence less effective than Ulrich Logfetch but still, no xk increase at all sounds strange indeed, I recall I certainly did train with her successfully, I'll add it to the list to check further on it serverside, thanks for reporting it.
[08:28] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, the anti-panic route goes through accepting the trouble and then paying attention to how things change as you attempt to do something about it, taking the time to figure out what's going on rather than trying to just get out of it without being none the wiser. You have the map command (with the p shortcut by default as Vivian Sporepress already told you) so you can figure out exactly where you are. If you actually check your coordinates before and after a sector change you'll quickly understand how that part works too and Raphael Nethersmell already told you quite specifically how to go in at least one direction, the rest are similar.
[14:40] Raphael Nethersmell: I've been exclusively training with Faith Kidneyguard since she's been introduced, fwiw.
[15:11] Diana Coman: good to know she is of use and it helps get her better at it, too!
[16:07] Vivian Sporepress: it might have been ziggurating that I trained with her before which is still lower than my gathering level, if it's a matter of her limits.
[16:11] Diana Coman: possibly the gathering is at a point where it takes quite a few explores to advance enough for 1xk % (hence for the advance to be visible), indeed
[16:27] Vivian Sporepress: it is, but wasn't going anywhere with Faith and then back to normal slow advancement with Ulrich.
[16:32] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4538 - over a week later, it seems most of the pile is still there and still inaccessible, most curious. I've noted a couple specific item IDs+coords to see if they're really sticking around or still being dug up or what.
[16:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: the pile of lbn remains unavailable to me.
[16:41] Diana Coman: that's interesting at least, I thought it was made by someone with a bot not running pickall so by the sounds of it, it's still owned quite a lot of time later - maybe the owner is still close enough
[16:45] Vivian Sporepress: could be I just haven't been able to see them because the quantity of lbn saturates knowledge acquisition for longer than I cared to stick around in the requisite spot
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: when an lbn q1 appears on the ground but hasn't been picked up yet, is it even owned by anyone, though?
[16:46] Diana Coman: well, if it's the result of your action then it is owned by you, otherwise how would you even be able to link it in any sort of way to your action, really?
[16:47] Diana Coman: maybe by position at most, I suppose, but in any case, iirc it is owned, yes
[16:48] Diana Coman: if it weren't, it would also lead to potential aggravation via someone snatching your stuff away, which is pretty much what owning is made to negate in the first place
[16:49] Diana Coman: if it just spawns though, then there wouldn't be an owner yet, logically speaking
[16:51] Diana Coman: fwiw if one is literally aiming to harvest lbn q1 by itself, the bot can be made to do it quite successfully if set to explore in a lbn-patch with pickall and just a few checks before moving on (so that it doesn't wait for a work object that never comes)
[17:00] Vivian Sporepress: is there a way to check item ownership (at least for self) through the data hierarchy? all I found so far in the GUI was accessibility. when I did the data reconstruction for my first mapmaking, I was filling in the LBN spots manually since indeed, no way to be sure if this lbn is a result of my own activity or just happened to be there.
[18:06] Diana Coman: ownership is not exposed specifically to the client, no, only in the negative as in something being inaccessible even when within range otherwise because your char doesn't own it. In other words: you can tell when it is *not* yours, but not whose it might be.
[18:07] Diana Coman: perhaps if I get around to add the maker mark and expose that, I might expose the ownership too, though not yet decided either way.
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[21:43] Faith Kidneyguard: Vivian Sporepress, I am currently at 60.36 98.40 8.52 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: moves around a lot, does she.
[23:45] Vivian Sporepress: 44 claims explored and no xk gained from Faith. maybe 1 xp gained from work that happened between training refreshes.
Day changed to 2026-03-03
[00:03] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4554 - looking at a recent crafting dataset, most of it supports this interpretation i.e. qabv of returned recipes is less than qabv per item of the returned items, but there's one that doesn't: 1 cdg q10 + 1 cftr q10 => cft bundle q3 => 1 cft q5 + 16 cftr q5. That seems to come to 14.4 qabv for the recipes vs 9 for the cft
[00:03] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: e.g. I just got now 1 cft q44 and 6 cftr q 44, which is 0.44*180= 79 the cft and 6*0.44*18=47 the 6 cftr, meaning that the full output simply was below 2 cft, looks like 1 cft and...change given as cftr, lolz
[00:07] Vivian Sporepress: also interestingly, I often get higher total value in outputs than in inputs consumed, in qabv terms, sometimes even outweighing the wear on the table
[00:26] Vivian Sporepress: and I'm definitely starting to suspect astrological effects on ziggurating because I'm currently getting way less in both quality and count of nt for the same inputs as recorded previously
[00:28] Vivian Sporepress: even compared to a time where my enums had the same lbn range reading, a bit lower than its peak
[13:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, checking on Faith Kidneyguard revealed that your xk has been increasing while training with her, only indeed by the almost minimum possible amount, which would take indeed a *lot* of time to show up as 1% due to the low input + relatively lower training experience she has + your relatively high rank. In other words: there is enough variance wrt training outcomes, too.
[13:04] Diana Coman: still, for now and given the starting situation otherwise, Faith Kidneyguard did some intensive learning of her own so that she's now closer to Ulrich Logfetch in skill at least. Their respective personal abilities don't change though.
[13:05] Diana Coman: and in time if people keep training with only one of them, the other will fall behind anyhow - though possibly beginners might find a beginner trainer more than enough and otherwise more easily available.
[16:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[16:04] Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[16:52] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[16:56] Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[18:39] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[18:39] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:53] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[18:53] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-01-28 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, is it really that difficult to write one line instead of 3 out of which 2 are just noise? For the record, there is already in place a filtering mechanism based on WoT ratings but I would hope it doesn't become actually needed all that soon.
Day changed to 2026-03-04
[09:06] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4784 - perhaps due to lower skill, perhaps due to insufficient number of attempts or even detail level (aka how small should the step be between consequent explore attempts to have any sort of confidence that one hasn't missed something - or at least how does one even *measure/estimate* such certainty, exactly?). While I could perhaps attempt some rough ranges for different resources based on what I observe as their overall spread throughout the various maps compiled so far, the trouble is that the more valuable ones seem to have way smaller ranges which means in turn that one needs a really small step to be able to say they at least stood a chance of finding them - but then I'm not even sure there is yet the data to estimate the probability that it wasn't missed *anyway*
[09:06] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[09:10] Diana Coman: as the very basic, one would need to keep track of attempts in one place and resulting findings, though probably best at a place where they already know what can be found, to then get some observed probabilities. Further messed up by the unknown impact of skill(s) on such empirical findings but anyway, it would be at least something indeed. Perhaps also something more appealing than all the usual dry book-exercises otherwise as a way to learn and apply statistics and data processing, but what do I know.
[09:14] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - oh hey, that's a first indeed, isn't it. And welcome back to life for dorion-mode, too!
[09:14] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[09:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[09:55] Diana Coman: come to think of this very first mention of e2 outside my own site, I don't really know what stops anyone from simply taking quotes from the notices and/or log and making from them small snippets to post with a link on any other place where they are active
[10:12] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[10:12] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[10:15] Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[10:18] Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
Day changed to 2026-03-05
[05:02] Vivian Sporepress: Nice to hear of Faith's levelup, I can give her another try.
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4782 - my crafting input and outputs are still pretty low value overall and the return of recipes is a drag on effiency, so dunno, will see how it continues.
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4783 - were any of those reproducible though?
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[05:06] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[05:07] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[05:39] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 - same. ambiguous parse tree that first came out as the puzzling version.
[05:39] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[05:55] Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[05:57] Vivian Sporepress: overall I found the article quite readable.
[08:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the findings in PPP were/are reproducible, only not reliably at each explore since most likely they can't really be, as long as there are clearly several resources at the same spot
[08:42] Diana Coman: good point on the eulora mention - I took his to mean more specifically eulora 2 and the entry link for it but anyways, the more the better
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard wher are you?
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[16:24] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:55] Vivian Sporepress: category slug corrected.
[18:56] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard the typist training aid
[18:58] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp said she's talked about e2 in LinkedIn too; though that's another game-world where (ironically enough) you can't link things!
[19:36] Diana Coman: oh hey, so then it turns out I just wasn't aware of the mentions until now. Iirc linkedin has been quite its own game-world for a while indeed, though I didn't know it removed links entirely by now, I guess this is their version of progress.
[19:36] Diana Coman: it's probably linked-in not out, lolz
[20:46] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 8.4k shells more than what you're offering.
Day changed to 2026-03-06
[15:25] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 -- thanks, I fixed it and noted the fix in the comments.
[15:25] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[15:26] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4797 -- cool, not plannnig to negrate anyone yet, but good to know how it works.
[15:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4799 -- yeah, let demand justify the work.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4800 -- makes sense to me.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
[15:28] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4806 -- I forgot about those, sorry.
[15:28] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[15:32] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4810 -- thanks, added as a comment.
[15:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[15:39] Raphael Nethersmell: i've found a patch of enchanted dungbeetle, Diana Coman, is it the same as e1's magical dungbeetle ?
[15:57] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I had my craft table near me, holding some lbn. I noticed it was back in my inventory, but I hadn't picked it up. when I put it back on the ground, it was holding the lbn I had left in it.
[16:00] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, an interesting question there - what even makes something in e2 the same as something from e1, eh? Congrats on finding a whole patch of those anyhow, I haven't seen any so far.
[16:02] Diana Coman: is it possible there was some pickall from the bot that picked that table up? It really sounds like some unintentional pick up, not sure how else it would just move from the ground to your inventory (and otherwise that it held the lbn you had left into it sounds perfectly fine, since indeed, if you pick up a table with something in it, you pick it as it is, with the thing contained remaining in it)
[16:36] Raphael Nethersmell: ah, there was a pickall. I guess from the convo a coupla weeks ago about putting loaded craft tables into storage I assumed loaded craft tables coupldn't be put into inventory either.
Day changed to 2026-03-09
[09:04] Diana Coman: in empirical findings, apparently the smelly murky somethings are at least quite reliably obtainable - got 2 more over 24 hours of bot-zigging
[13:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I'm finding basics like sb are requiring twice the lbn to zig compared to bb, wwb, etc.
[13:23] Diana Coman: heh, noticed though since when?
[13:34] Raphael Nethersmell: since I've been leveling up the past week or so.
[13:55] Diana Coman: yeah, but leveling up specifically one skill
[13:58] Raphael Nethersmell: well, I've been leveling them all up. tinkering takes longer though because it requires inputs that are outputs from ziggurating.
[14:01] Diana Coman: at least so far I never saw any impact on enum ingredients from leveling up in tinkering
[14:04] Diana Coman: funny how it's not necessarily directly obvious or clear what the exact cause is, even from a relatively small set of reasonable candidates
[14:09] Diana Coman: on the tinkering requiring ziggurating outputs - it would surely help there if there were more people to work/be interested in different parts and trade the outputs, indeed.
[14:11] Diana Coman: not quite sure though how to get more people with such interest or how to convert from the apparently widely spread interest of "oh, just wanna find shiny new things around, as quickly and easily as possible"
[14:19] Diana Coman: or hm, maybe I should consider turning this around and have the generator spew any number of different items that are all worth ~0 but can be used to play this sort of magpie game, maybe even keep collectors busy if it gets to that, who knows
[15:29] Vivian Sporepress: fwiw, I don't notice any difference in ingredient requirements for ziggurating by resource type, on tinies and smalls
[15:30] Vivian Sporepress: indeed they generally increase as one levels up, though not in a straight line
[15:40] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: did you find your way home yet, or find anything interesting out in the farther fields?
[16:15] Diana Coman: straight lines don't seem to be all that common in euloran experience, do they
[16:17] Vivian Sporepress: about the only thing that can be said for sure
[16:25] Diana Coman: possible magpie minigame, since apparently it's enough to glance that way for there to be something at least worh mentioning in the log as such: any number of items named based on p prefixes, 1 base, s suffixes, all picked at random from large enough word pools, with different designs gui-wise from the trusty generator and allowing then combinations of 2 (or possibly more) such items based on corresponding prefixes/suffixes/bases with results...dunno, going poof with various visual effects? But definitely with magpie achievement/badges in the Notices and Announcements.
[16:27] Diana Coman: (very tempting to add to it then some decay to one character's vitals if not straight their deeper characteristics, lolz)
[16:39] Diana Coman: definitely easy to come up with ideas, funnily enough it wouldn't even be that difficult now to actually implement the above, only I'm not sure I find some actual reason to do it, or at least not yet
[16:40] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: it seems we don't have many conversions from talk to even stepping in and looking around, to the point where mini-games or lack thereof would even come up as an issue
[16:50] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, perhaps the motivation for trying something out has switched by now almost entirely into the fomo/crowd-direction side, given otherwise the overwhelm with at least apparent choice. Otherwise, as stated, it's a bit tongue in cheek really, as truly easy and easily accessible + visible activity with exactly as little actual impact as possible aka safest, too.
[16:54] Diana Coman: perhaps to play at ...playing, even, so that it's less intimidating
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: heh
[16:55] Vivian Sporepress: can there be an AI agent to play for the player?
[16:55] Diana Coman: if they can plug it in, how or why would the game care, really?
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: I don't imagine it would
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: got a statistics question, coming not from eulora but from data I've gathered on computer clock speeds ("system" and "real time" clocks, which on the standard PC derive from two independent oscillators, measured against an NTP reference hourly for 8 days). I've calculated drift rate as the derivative of the difference between clocks, but this is quite susceptible to the noise in the individual measurements. What I actually want to quantify is the long-term stability of the clocks - something like "expected variance in long-term drift after a linear compensation for the measured average". Does that sound like the right track? alternatively there's the machine learning approach, do a linear regression on a "training" subset then measure its fit to the withheld "validation" subset
[19:44] Vivian Sporepress: both clock sources seem to perform rather poorly in general and I'm considering building something from higher quality components, but the same approach would apply to validating this new source.
[19:55] Vivian Sporepress: I guess the simplest approach is to squash the noise by taking daily averages then look at standard deviation of those.
Day changed to 2026-03-10
[09:05] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the usual trouble with statistics is figuring out a close-enough set of assumptions about the underlying processes that result in the data as observed. So in this case, first of all, are the errors from these oscillators-based computer clocks (whichever way you define them) known to be normally distributed? If each interval added/subtracted a normally distributed error, it would rather follow that you'd have quite a reliable way to even keep it reasonably on track over a large enough interval at least and I'm not really sure that's the case.
[09:10] Diana Coman: otherwise taking daily averages would be indeed the simplest approach to reduce the noise of individual measurements, certainly. But it might be something other than the standard deviation of those that is more useful afterwards.
[09:25] Diana Coman: long-term stability of a clock sounds to me more to do with whether the errors it introduces in the shorter-term either compensate overall in the longer term or at least reach some finite bound and remain there after a certain point. Either of these (or any other specific model) would come from those oscillators and how they are used, though I don't know enough on that to know what model fits.
[09:28] Diana Coman: from what I recall on any system where there was no explicit sync with some reference clock, the drift only ever seemed to increase, hence my reservation as to how normally distributed the errors truly are. Of course it might just be that I never let it be for truly long enough so that there is some visible compensation too but not so sure that's really the case.
[21:25] Nestor Nethercross: Rainer Tracksnarl where are you?
[21:25] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -20.22 97.33 34.79 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:34] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 2.4k shells more than what you're offering.
[21:53] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 494 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:58] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 65 shells more than what you're offering.
[22:10] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[22:10] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -24.20 99.86 -16.51 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
Day changed to 2026-03-11
[03:30] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: makes sense about needing to model the underlying processes accurately enough. To clarify a bit how I'm seeing it, there's the error introduced by the measurement process (even measurements taken in quick succession will vary) and then there's the drift rate of the clock, its sharpness or flatness as it were, over a given interval, which also fluctuates, mainly due to temperature dependence, says the theory. Neither seems likely to be normally distributed; possibly the accumulated drift over time more so, something like a random walk.
[06:03] Vivian Sporepress: for ntp, the variability in measurements presumably comes from variable network conditions; for the rtc, I'm supposedly listening for its update interrupt to measure the precise system time, but it's a multitasking non-realtime system so who knows what might delay it between that interrupt and waking up the userspace program which reads the time.
[09:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, hm, I suppose there is the added question of whether you are trying to evaluate the rtc clock itself as a separate entity as much as possible or its use in context (which comes at all times with the same added errors as any measurement). Either way, if what you are trying to measure is not normally distributed, then there is the question of what exactly does a standard deviation tell you reliably, if anything and more to the point what might be perhaps more useful instead.
[09:18] Diana Coman: don't rtc implementations or at least designs actually come with any sort of discussions of their rationale and/or theoretical models at least? I'd expect there is somewhere something of this sort and there should be at least some mention in there of both expected process errors and their estimated impact in some form or another.
[09:26] Diana Coman: failing the above or in any case, making faster use perhaps of already collected data, in principle at least, for starters you can always simply plot whatever relevant data you have and get at least some idea as to what sort of distribution it might fit, if any, taking it afterwards from there.
[09:31] Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[09:43] Diana Coman: I guess the only way to avoid anyhow the likely in-chat spam of price finding as it currently happens, the only real solution would have to mean sending over the price per unit for items put in give/receive in an exchange and then having the client be aware of these and actually use them to calculate and show to the player the relevant amounts. With the usual headache that very low q, low value items can easily end up as 0 per unit and going into decimals can then backfire with overflows on high q, high value items. Which leaves only some powers of 10 approach, I suppose, sending the value over as a tuple, pushing for as many decimals as needed to get at least one non-zero and otherwise limiting decimals on higher values e.g. 0.0234 is (234, 4), 1.51 is (151, 2), 8341 is (8341, 0)
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im kind of lost
[01:24] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the ravine of the unborn
[01:29] Felicia Solecrimp: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[01:29] Wolfgang Middlesit: Felicia Solecrimp, I am currently at -22.86 99.87 -18.81 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: now im on the aged lane of remorse
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: im so lost
[02:01] Felicia Solecrimp: how can i get back to ppp D:
[08:04] Raphael Nethersmell: Felicia Solecrimp, you're 2 sectors to the left of ppp. go to x=500 to cross into funky hammock of glum and then x=500 to get back to ppp
[17:52] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: you should also be able to press 'p' to view the map of sectors you discovered so far
Day changed to 2026-03-02
[04:33] Felicia Solecrimp: Im in the saturine lane of inevitatibility
[04:34] Felicia Solecrimp: im panicking a little
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: okay im i the funny hammcok of glum
[04:53] Felicia Solecrimp: somehow
[08:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, different trainers will have their own training skill/ability as it were, so possibly Faith Kidneyguard is less experienced yet hence less effective than Ulrich Logfetch but still, no xk increase at all sounds strange indeed, I recall I certainly did train with her successfully, I'll add it to the list to check further on it serverside, thanks for reporting it.
[08:28] Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, the anti-panic route goes through accepting the trouble and then paying attention to how things change as you attempt to do something about it, taking the time to figure out what's going on rather than trying to just get out of it without being none the wiser. You have the map command (with the p shortcut by default as Vivian Sporepress already told you) so you can figure out exactly where you are. If you actually check your coordinates before and after a sector change you'll quickly understand how that part works too and Raphael Nethersmell already told you quite specifically how to go in at least one direction, the rest are similar.
[14:40] Raphael Nethersmell: I've been exclusively training with Faith Kidneyguard since she's been introduced, fwiw.
[15:11] Diana Coman: good to know she is of use and it helps get her better at it, too!
[16:07] Vivian Sporepress: it might have been ziggurating that I trained with her before which is still lower than my gathering level, if it's a matter of her limits.
[16:11] Diana Coman: possibly the gathering is at a point where it takes quite a few explores to advance enough for 1xk % (hence for the advance to be visible), indeed
[16:27] Vivian Sporepress: it is, but wasn't going anywhere with Faith and then back to normal slow advancement with Ulrich.
[16:32] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4538 - over a week later, it seems most of the pile is still there and still inaccessible, most curious. I've noted a couple specific item IDs+coords to see if they're really sticking around or still being dug up or what.
[16:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: the pile of lbn remains unavailable to me.
[16:41] Diana Coman: that's interesting at least, I thought it was made by someone with a bot not running pickall so by the sounds of it, it's still owned quite a lot of time later - maybe the owner is still close enough
[16:45] Vivian Sporepress: could be I just haven't been able to see them because the quantity of lbn saturates knowledge acquisition for longer than I cared to stick around in the requisite spot
[16:46] Vivian Sporepress: when an lbn q1 appears on the ground but hasn't been picked up yet, is it even owned by anyone, though?
[16:46] Diana Coman: well, if it's the result of your action then it is owned by you, otherwise how would you even be able to link it in any sort of way to your action, really?
[16:47] Diana Coman: maybe by position at most, I suppose, but in any case, iirc it is owned, yes
[16:48] Diana Coman: if it weren't, it would also lead to potential aggravation via someone snatching your stuff away, which is pretty much what owning is made to negate in the first place
[16:49] Diana Coman: if it just spawns though, then there wouldn't be an owner yet, logically speaking
[16:51] Diana Coman: fwiw if one is literally aiming to harvest lbn q1 by itself, the bot can be made to do it quite successfully if set to explore in a lbn-patch with pickall and just a few checks before moving on (so that it doesn't wait for a work object that never comes)
[17:00] Vivian Sporepress: is there a way to check item ownership (at least for self) through the data hierarchy? all I found so far in the GUI was accessibility. when I did the data reconstruction for my first mapmaking, I was filling in the LBN spots manually since indeed, no way to be sure if this lbn is a result of my own activity or just happened to be there.
[18:06] Diana Coman: ownership is not exposed specifically to the client, no, only in the negative as in something being inaccessible even when within range otherwise because your char doesn't own it. In other words: you can tell when it is *not* yours, but not whose it might be.
[18:07] Diana Coman: perhaps if I get around to add the maker mark and expose that, I might expose the ownership too, though not yet decided either way.
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[21:43] Faith Kidneyguard: Vivian Sporepress, I am currently at 60.36 98.40 8.52 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:43] Vivian Sporepress: moves around a lot, does she.
[23:45] Vivian Sporepress: 44 claims explored and no xk gained from Faith. maybe 1 xp gained from work that happened between training refreshes.
Day changed to 2026-03-03
[00:03] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/02/02/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Feb-2026/#4554 - looking at a recent crafting dataset, most of it supports this interpretation i.e. qabv of returned recipes is less than qabv per item of the returned items, but there's one that doesn't: 1 cdg q10 + 1 cftr q10 => cft bundle q3 => 1 cft q5 + 16 cftr q5. That seems to come to 14.4 qabv for the recipes vs 9 for the cft
[00:03] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-02-20 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: e.g. I just got now 1 cft q44 and 6 cftr q 44, which is 0.44*180= 79 the cft and 6*0.44*18=47 the 6 cftr, meaning that the full output simply was below 2 cft, looks like 1 cft and...change given as cftr, lolz
[00:07] Vivian Sporepress: also interestingly, I often get higher total value in outputs than in inputs consumed, in qabv terms, sometimes even outweighing the wear on the table
[00:26] Vivian Sporepress: and I'm definitely starting to suspect astrological effects on ziggurating because I'm currently getting way less in both quality and count of nt for the same inputs as recorded previously
[00:28] Vivian Sporepress: even compared to a time where my enums had the same lbn range reading, a bit lower than its peak
[13:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, checking on Faith Kidneyguard revealed that your xk has been increasing while training with her, only indeed by the almost minimum possible amount, which would take indeed a *lot* of time to show up as 1% due to the low input + relatively lower training experience she has + your relatively high rank. In other words: there is enough variance wrt training outcomes, too.
[13:04] Diana Coman: still, for now and given the starting situation otherwise, Faith Kidneyguard did some intensive learning of her own so that she's now closer to Ulrich Logfetch in skill at least. Their respective personal abilities don't change though.
[13:05] Diana Coman: and in time if people keep training with only one of them, the other will fall behind anyhow - though possibly beginners might find a beginner trainer more than enough and otherwise more easily available.
[16:03] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[16:04] Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[16:52] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[16:56] Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[18:39] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[18:39] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:53] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[18:53] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-01-28 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Felicia Solecrimp, is it really that difficult to write one line instead of 3 out of which 2 are just noise? For the record, there is already in place a filtering mechanism based on WoT ratings but I would hope it doesn't become actually needed all that soon.
Day changed to 2026-03-04
[09:06] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4784 - perhaps due to lower skill, perhaps due to insufficient number of attempts or even detail level (aka how small should the step be between consequent explore attempts to have any sort of confidence that one hasn't missed something - or at least how does one even *measure/estimate* such certainty, exactly?). While I could perhaps attempt some rough ranges for different resources based on what I observe as their overall spread throughout the various maps compiled so far, the trouble is that the more valuable ones seem to have way smaller ranges which means in turn that one needs a really small step to be able to say they at least stood a chance of finding them - but then I'm not even sure there is yet the data to estimate the probability that it wasn't missed *anyway*
[09:06] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, do you think you missed'em before due to lower skill ?
[09:10] Diana Coman: as the very basic, one would need to keep track of attempts in one place and resulting findings, though probably best at a place where they already know what can be found, to then get some observed probabilities. Further messed up by the unknown impact of skill(s) on such empirical findings but anyway, it would be at least something indeed. Perhaps also something more appealing than all the usual dry book-exercises otherwise as a way to learn and apply statistics and data processing, but what do I know.
[09:14] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - oh hey, that's a first indeed, isn't it. And welcome back to life for dorion-mode, too!
[09:14] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[09:16] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[09:55] Diana Coman: come to think of this very first mention of e2 outside my own site, I don't really know what stops anyone from simply taking quotes from the notices and/or log and making from them small snippets to post with a link on any other place where they are active
[10:12] Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[10:12] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/01/19/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Jan-2026/#4065 -- how is this used ? is there a flag to set in euconfig.ini ?
[10:15] Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[10:18] Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
Day changed to 2026-03-05
[05:02] Vivian Sporepress: Nice to hear of Faith's levelup, I can give her another try.
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4782 - my crafting input and outputs are still pretty low value overall and the return of recipes is a drag on effiency, so dunno, will see how it continues.
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, interesting data points on the crafting, too. Perhaps you found a sweet spot for it if you are consistently getting more than you put in - my char seems to get more often less than half what she put in, on occasion getting though more than triple so dunno what to say to such nicely behaved outputs as you get!
[05:04] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4783 - were any of those reproducible though?
[05:04] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: in resource map findings, it turns out that even SG (and AE and LH...) can be found in fact in PPP straight, huh. Wondering now just what else I might have still missed despite the relatively careful combing of this sector...
[05:06] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[05:07] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-03 (Eulora 2) Raphael Nethersmell: mentions of e2 now exist in articles outside of ossasepia : http://dorion-mode.com/2026/03/how-to-be-a-person-online-the-rsa-algorithm-and-the-web-of-trust/
[05:39] Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 - same. ambiguous parse tree that first came out as the puzzling version.
[05:39] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[05:55] Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[05:57] Vivian Sporepress: overall I found the article quite readable.
[08:40] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the findings in PPP were/are reproducible, only not reliably at each explore since most likely they can't really be, as long as there are clearly several resources at the same spot
[08:42] Diana Coman: good point on the eulora mention - I took his to mean more specifically eulora 2 and the entry link for it but anyways, the more the better
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard wher are you?
[16:24] Raphael Nethersmell: Faith Kidneyguard where are you?
[16:24] Faith Kidneyguard: Raphael Nethersmell, I am currently at 43.40 98.44 21.20 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[18:55] Vivian Sporepress: category slug corrected.
[18:56] Vivian Sporepress: Faith Kidneyguard the typist training aid
[18:58] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp said she's talked about e2 in LinkedIn too; though that's another game-world where (ironically enough) you can't link things!
[19:36] Diana Coman: oh hey, so then it turns out I just wasn't aware of the mentions until now. Iirc linkedin has been quite its own game-world for a while indeed, though I didn't know it removed links entirely by now, I guess this is their version of progress.
[19:36] Diana Coman: it's probably linked-in not out, lolz
[20:46] Rainer Tracksnarl: Raphael Nethersmell, that's worth about 8.4k shells more than what you're offering.
Day changed to 2026-03-06
[15:25] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4795 -- thanks, I fixed it and noted the fix in the comments.
[15:25] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, "it becomes economical to engage in deals with people that are worth less than the value of their reputation" is a bit confusing, as it sounds like the people are worth less than the value of their reputation so it took a double take there to follow.
[15:26] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4797 -- cool, not plannnig to negrate anyone yet, but good to know how it works.
[15:26] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4788 - on a personal level, when you rate someone as misbelieved or lower, the server will take the cue and simply replace that char's lines with placeholders for your client. On a chat room level, there are several different approaches but in this room a PC can contribute their own lines as long as their level 2 rating from myself is at -5 or better and they can get the lines with a level 2 rating of -10 or better (ie read access requires just any rating, write access requires that people known by those I know still find them believable to some extent)
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4799 -- yeah, let demand justify the work.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: I was considering as well a clientside-only part to this which would indeed work via a flag in the .ini file, so that people can literally pick their own threshold at which they want to ignore someone's lines but at least so far this didn't really seem to be worth implementing yet.
[15:27] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4800 -- makes sense to me.
[15:27] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-04 (Eulora 2) Diana Coman: fwiw the centering of the ratings on my char for this room is mostly because there has to be someone it's centred on and pretending it's not me by naming an NPC instead for it is really just a pretense so not worth doing really.
[15:28] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4806 -- I forgot about those, sorry.
[15:28] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4785 - how about http://jfxpt.com/category/software/eulora-software/ ? (not sure what's up with the double "software", the displayed category name doesn't do that, I probably hit some tangle in the category creation UI)
[15:32] Raphael Nethersmell: http://ossasepia.com/2026/03/01/Eulora-2-Logs-for-Mar-2026/#4810 -- thanks, added as a comment.
[15:32] Ulrich Logfetch: Quoting 2026-03-05 (Eulora 2) Vivian Sporepress: and a tech point, "The dual function of encryption and signing from a single key" - gpg at least uses separate keys for those functions (encryption subkey), not without cause - signing means sharing something derived from the private key, thus in principle leaking some information about it, while encryption leaks at worst something about the encrypted text but not the key since it's the public side involved. I don't think the argument is any worse for this, since from the usage standpoint it functions as a single overall key set associated with that person having those functions.
[15:39] Raphael Nethersmell: i've found a patch of enchanted dungbeetle, Diana Coman, is it the same as e1's magical dungbeetle ?
[15:57] Raphael Nethersmell: Diana Coman, I had my craft table near me, holding some lbn. I noticed it was back in my inventory, but I hadn't picked it up. when I put it back on the ground, it was holding the lbn I had left in it.
[16:00] Diana Coman: Raphael Nethersmell, an interesting question there - what even makes something in e2 the same as something from e1, eh? Congrats on finding a whole patch of those anyhow, I haven't seen any so far.
[16:02] Diana Coman: is it possible there was some pickall from the bot that picked that table up? It really sounds like some unintentional pick up, not sure how else it would just move from the ground to your inventory (and otherwise that it held the lbn you had left into it sounds perfectly fine, since indeed, if you pick up a table with something in it, you pick it as it is, with the thing contained remaining in it)
[16:36] Raphael Nethersmell: ah, there was a pickall. I guess from the convo a coupla weeks ago about putting loaded craft tables into storage I assumed loaded craft tables coupldn't be put into inventory either.
Day changed to 2026-03-09
[09:04] Diana Coman: in empirical findings, apparently the smelly murky somethings are at least quite reliably obtainable - got 2 more over 24 hours of bot-zigging
[13:18] Raphael Nethersmell: I'm finding basics like sb are requiring twice the lbn to zig compared to bb, wwb, etc.
[13:23] Diana Coman: heh, noticed though since when?
[13:34] Raphael Nethersmell: since I've been leveling up the past week or so.
[13:55] Diana Coman: yeah, but leveling up specifically one skill
[13:58] Raphael Nethersmell: well, I've been leveling them all up. tinkering takes longer though because it requires inputs that are outputs from ziggurating.
[14:01] Diana Coman: at least so far I never saw any impact on enum ingredients from leveling up in tinkering
[14:04] Diana Coman: funny how it's not necessarily directly obvious or clear what the exact cause is, even from a relatively small set of reasonable candidates
[14:09] Diana Coman: on the tinkering requiring ziggurating outputs - it would surely help there if there were more people to work/be interested in different parts and trade the outputs, indeed.
[14:11] Diana Coman: not quite sure though how to get more people with such interest or how to convert from the apparently widely spread interest of "oh, just wanna find shiny new things around, as quickly and easily as possible"
[14:19] Diana Coman: or hm, maybe I should consider turning this around and have the generator spew any number of different items that are all worth ~0 but can be used to play this sort of magpie game, maybe even keep collectors busy if it gets to that, who knows
[15:29] Vivian Sporepress: fwiw, I don't notice any difference in ingredient requirements for ziggurating by resource type, on tinies and smalls
[15:30] Vivian Sporepress: indeed they generally increase as one levels up, though not in a straight line
[15:40] Vivian Sporepress: Felicia Solecrimp: did you find your way home yet, or find anything interesting out in the farther fields?
[16:15] Diana Coman: straight lines don't seem to be all that common in euloran experience, do they
[16:17] Vivian Sporepress: about the only thing that can be said for sure
[16:25] Diana Coman: possible magpie minigame, since apparently it's enough to glance that way for there to be something at least worh mentioning in the log as such: any number of items named based on p prefixes, 1 base, s suffixes, all picked at random from large enough word pools, with different designs gui-wise from the trusty generator and allowing then combinations of 2 (or possibly more) such items based on corresponding prefixes/suffixes/bases with results...dunno, going poof with various visual effects? But definitely with magpie achievement/badges in the Notices and Announcements.
[16:27] Diana Coman: (very tempting to add to it then some decay to one character's vitals if not straight their deeper characteristics, lolz)
[16:39] Diana Coman: definitely easy to come up with ideas, funnily enough it wouldn't even be that difficult now to actually implement the above, only I'm not sure I find some actual reason to do it, or at least not yet
[16:40] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: it seems we don't have many conversions from talk to even stepping in and looking around, to the point where mini-games or lack thereof would even come up as an issue
[16:50] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, perhaps the motivation for trying something out has switched by now almost entirely into the fomo/crowd-direction side, given otherwise the overwhelm with at least apparent choice. Otherwise, as stated, it's a bit tongue in cheek really, as truly easy and easily accessible + visible activity with exactly as little actual impact as possible aka safest, too.
[16:54] Diana Coman: perhaps to play at ...playing, even, so that it's less intimidating
[16:54] Vivian Sporepress: heh
[16:55] Vivian Sporepress: can there be an AI agent to play for the player?
[16:55] Diana Coman: if they can plug it in, how or why would the game care, really?
[16:57] Vivian Sporepress: I don't imagine it would
[19:38] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: got a statistics question, coming not from eulora but from data I've gathered on computer clock speeds ("system" and "real time" clocks, which on the standard PC derive from two independent oscillators, measured against an NTP reference hourly for 8 days). I've calculated drift rate as the derivative of the difference between clocks, but this is quite susceptible to the noise in the individual measurements. What I actually want to quantify is the long-term stability of the clocks - something like "expected variance in long-term drift after a linear compensation for the measured average". Does that sound like the right track? alternatively there's the machine learning approach, do a linear regression on a "training" subset then measure its fit to the withheld "validation" subset
[19:44] Vivian Sporepress: both clock sources seem to perform rather poorly in general and I'm considering building something from higher quality components, but the same approach would apply to validating this new source.
[19:55] Vivian Sporepress: I guess the simplest approach is to squash the noise by taking daily averages then look at standard deviation of those.
Day changed to 2026-03-10
[09:05] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, the usual trouble with statistics is figuring out a close-enough set of assumptions about the underlying processes that result in the data as observed. So in this case, first of all, are the errors from these oscillators-based computer clocks (whichever way you define them) known to be normally distributed? If each interval added/subtracted a normally distributed error, it would rather follow that you'd have quite a reliable way to even keep it reasonably on track over a large enough interval at least and I'm not really sure that's the case.
[09:10] Diana Coman: otherwise taking daily averages would be indeed the simplest approach to reduce the noise of individual measurements, certainly. But it might be something other than the standard deviation of those that is more useful afterwards.
[09:25] Diana Coman: long-term stability of a clock sounds to me more to do with whether the errors it introduces in the shorter-term either compensate overall in the longer term or at least reach some finite bound and remain there after a certain point. Either of these (or any other specific model) would come from those oscillators and how they are used, though I don't know enough on that to know what model fits.
[09:28] Diana Coman: from what I recall on any system where there was no explicit sync with some reference clock, the drift only ever seemed to increase, hence my reservation as to how normally distributed the errors truly are. Of course it might just be that I never let it be for truly long enough so that there is some visible compensation too but not so sure that's really the case.
[21:25] Nestor Nethercross: Rainer Tracksnarl where are you?
[21:25] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -20.22 97.33 34.79 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
[21:34] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 2.4k shells more than what you're offering.
[21:53] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 494 shells more than what you're offering.
[21:58] Rainer Tracksnarl: Nestor Nethercross, that's worth about 65 shells more than what you're offering.
[22:10] Nestor Nethercross: Wolfgang Middlesit where are you?
[22:10] Wolfgang Middlesit: Nestor Nethercross, I am currently at -24.20 99.86 -16.51 in Preposterously Prosperous Place
Day changed to 2026-03-11
[03:30] Vivian Sporepress: Diana Coman: makes sense about needing to model the underlying processes accurately enough. To clarify a bit how I'm seeing it, there's the error introduced by the measurement process (even measurements taken in quick succession will vary) and then there's the drift rate of the clock, its sharpness or flatness as it were, over a given interval, which also fluctuates, mainly due to temperature dependence, says the theory. Neither seems likely to be normally distributed; possibly the accumulated drift over time more so, something like a random walk.
[06:03] Vivian Sporepress: for ntp, the variability in measurements presumably comes from variable network conditions; for the rtc, I'm supposedly listening for its update interrupt to measure the precise system time, but it's a multitasking non-realtime system so who knows what might delay it between that interrupt and waking up the userspace program which reads the time.
[09:15] Diana Coman: Vivian Sporepress, hm, I suppose there is the added question of whether you are trying to evaluate the rtc clock itself as a separate entity as much as possible or its use in context (which comes at all times with the same added errors as any measurement). Either way, if what you are trying to measure is not normally distributed, then there is the question of what exactly does a standard deviation tell you reliably, if anything and more to the point what might be perhaps more useful instead.
[09:18] Diana Coman: don't rtc implementations or at least designs actually come with any sort of discussions of their rationale and/or theoretical models at least? I'd expect there is somewhere something of this sort and there should be at least some mention in there of both expected process errors and their estimated impact in some form or another.
[09:26] Diana Coman: failing the above or in any case, making faster use perhaps of already collected data, in principle at least, for starters you can always simply plot whatever relevant data you have and get at least some idea as to what sort of distribution it might fit, if any, taking it afterwards from there.
[09:31] Diana Coman: back to euloran matters, it looks like Rainer Tracksnarl might need to find rather soon a better way to both inform of his prices and otherwise keep his shop inventory more strictly relevant to what people are actually buying
[09:43] Diana Coman: I guess the only way to avoid anyhow the likely in-chat spam of price finding as it currently happens, the only real solution would have to mean sending over the price per unit for items put in give/receive in an exchange and then having the client be aware of these and actually use them to calculate and show to the player the relevant amounts. With the usual headache that very low q, low value items can easily end up as 0 per unit and going into decimals can then backfire with overflows on high q, high value items. Which leaves only some powers of 10 approach, I suppose, sending the value over as a tuple, pushing for as many decimals as needed to get at least one non-zero and otherwise limiting decimals on higher values e.g. 0.0234 is (234, 4), 1.51 is (151, 2), 8341 is (8341, 0)