| diana_coman: | hello davout, it's been a long time | [08:09] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: how's it going? | [11:15] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: not the greatest, I'm in the eleventh hour crunch again | [11:35] |
| jfw: | draft is not finished | [11:36] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: what does it lack to be finished? | [11:36] |
| jfw: | I've got a bunch of context as to my original goals and steps but what's lacking is much delving into the events of the month | [11:40] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: in truth, it is a whole month indeed, dunno who exactly made it that.. long :P | [11:41] |
| diana_coman: | but I'll let you focus on it now then, no worries. | [11:41] |
| dorion: | dunno who exactly made it that.. long :P << keks | [11:46] |
| jfw: | diana_coman: ok. Assuming I make it out of this one alive, is there an upcoming assignment I should get in next week's plan? | [11:50] |
| diana_coman: | jfw: an overview of the WoT as you understand it. | [11:52] |
| jfw: | alright | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | and do get out of it alive. | [11:53] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: what's the difference between negative space and blind spots? | [12:39] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I'm not sure. | [12:46] |
| dorion: | searching in log now. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: the easiest way to get an idea as to negative space is from drawing: | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | think of drawing an object such as a chair; the direct and usual approach is to look at the chair and attempt to draw its parts | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | however, the result is often way, way better if you look instead not at the chair itself but at the surrounding reality borders - basically the space that the chair takes out of its surroundings | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | the chair-shaped gap, if you want | [12:50] |
| diana_coman: | no matter which bit or object you are looking at, there will be borders between it and surroundings | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | the object itself is the "positive" as in that's what you were interested in to start with; but the space *around* it (and not just arbitrary but effectively *defining* it) is the negative space | [12:52] |
| dorion: | hmm, so then how the chair displaces whatever in the surroundings would've been there otherwise? | [12:52] |
| diana_coman: | as such, the negative space has nothing to do directly with blind spots (in that such blind spots are your own ie related to your vision, things you don't see; while the negative space has to do with the object it defines) | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: more like how the chair is *defined* as a result of taking things away from the whole ; as opposed to "positive" definition of the more usual sort "this chair is 4 wooden legs and one wooden plank" | [12:54] |
| diana_coman: | this difference btw goes way way deeper in that it touches on how meaning of words is constructed even (or at least in some languages) | [12:55] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: the chair-drawing exercise is simple enough you can even do it, if you want; ie draw something focusing on the object itself; then on another day draw the same thing focusing on what is not-object in your chosen viewframe | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | and then compare the two | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | (now I have no idea how good you are at drawing, heh) | [12:56] |
| diana_coman: | obviously, if you do it, choose something reasonably non-compact ie preferably not-a-tennis-ball, lolz. | [12:57] |
| dorion: | diana_coman in that sense, I can be defined not by what I'm saying here or even the topic, but that you'd be doing something else right now if not delivering this negative space likbez. | [12:57] |
| diana_coman: | well, you are not really defined by what I'm saying though :) | [12:58] |
| diana_coman: | but our interaction, yes | [12:58] |
| dorion: | I see. | [12:59] |
| diana_coman: | onth blind spots are really like in a car's mirror: those bits and parts that you don't see; as to *why* you don't see them, there can be all sorts of reasons | [12:59] |
| dorion: | not very practiced at drawing, but will give it a try. | [12:59] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: fwiw the "negative space drawing" is actually quite often used as an exercise to help beginners draw *better* pictures than they would otherwise. | [13:00] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: does that make sense? | [13:01] |
| dorion: | yes, thank you. | [13:02] |
| diana_coman: | you're welcome. | [13:02] |
| dorion: | that I wasn't, or don't remember, being assigned such a drawing exercise indicates the poverty of my previous teachers or my lack of previous interest. | [13:03] |
| dorion: | they probably go hand in hand though. | [13:03] |
| diana_coman: | actual feedback and help to grow is rare indeed. | [13:06] |
| whaack: | another similar drawing exercise is to copy another drawing, but upside down, and then flip your final result. (i found the exercise from a book, "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards, recommended in a tlp post) i did the exercise and it produced the best drawing i've ever done lol | [13:12] |
| dorion: | yeah, modern 'teachers' are mainly there for 'work' being done at 3pm, summers off and the cushy pension checks, i.e. welfare. | [13:12] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: yes. | [13:13] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: in truth, there will never be enough teachers for *everyone* so yes, if you insist that everyone gets a teacher like that by decree, what else can you get than ...welfare. | [13:14] |
| whaack: | my understanding from the tlp post is these drills prevent your brain from reducing the subject you're drawing to symbols "human head => circle" | [13:14] |
| dorion: | also, kids are easier to bully with nonsense compared to adults. | [13:14] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: there is an element of that for sure; but the definition by subtraction vs definition by parts is more than just "don't reduce it to predefined symbols" | [13:15] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: eh, not all that many adults around either :P | [13:17] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I've read from john taylor gatto that back in one room school house days when US was relatively literate (perhaps not compared to their comtemporaries, but to modernity), older students taught the younger, with teaching as a form of proving understanding. | [13:17] |
| dorion: | diana_coman sure, esp after so many generations of prussian model, state enforced schooling. | [13:18] |
| diana_coman: | that in itself doesn't mean though that teaching was necessarily more than the prussian model really; it's just the natural result of mixed ages basically; while it may help in getting some deeper understanding, it's still not going to do much by itself, it's not like older students are all teachers just like that. | [13:19] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: do you have siblings? | [13:20] |
| dorion: | yeah, a sister 3 years younger. | [13:21] |
| diana_coman: | heh, never explained to her anything? | [13:21] |
| dorion: | sure. my peculiar sitaution unfolded such that we weren't really close until ~after~ I moved out. In part because we were only in the same school building 2 years out of 15. when I was 12 and 18.. | [13:22] |
| diana_coman: | well, not in school but at home, lol; anyways, there you have it: it's enough to have a gap and people will "teach" one another *if they care* about that other, obv; that's the main part there. | [13:24] |
| whaack: | dorion: I think that is pretty normal. (becoming closer with your siblings when you no longer liver together) | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | bwahahaha; good god, NO. | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | lolz | [13:24] |
| diana_coman: | I can see the angle if basically you needed some space too but uhm, don't make it a rule, there's nothing solid behind it. | [13:25] |
| dorion: | diana_coman I see. | [13:26] |
| whaack: | lol ok | [13:27] |
| dorion: | whaack I dunno, I know plenty of siblings that were real close. In my situation, athletics were central to my activities and I was always interested in playing with the older kids on the block. thus drove my sister away a lot the time. | [13:27] |
| dorion: | once I realized sports don't matter and there's a big world out there, started talking to her more and realized I enjoyed her company. | [13:28] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: you are there like in eulora, approx: happiness is having a large, close-knit family in another town. | [13:28] |
| dorion: | and whaack thanks for the drawing exercise suggestion, sounds like a trip. | [13:29] |
| whaack: | right. i may be just projecting my experience on others. (to be clear by 'closer' i mean 'the level at which you appreciate any given moment') and if i think more about it i'm not sure that that's even the case for me | [13:29] |
| diana_coman: | heh, even thinking is re-thinking! | [13:30] |
| whaack: | any given moment together* | [13:30] |
| diana_coman: | will bbl | [13:31] |
| whaack: | i'm not sure what you mean by 'you are there like in eulora'. | [13:32] |
| dorion: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Nov-2019#1008672 << which languages would those be ? | [13:42] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2019-11-03 12:55:20 diana_coman: this difference btw goes way way deeper in that it touches on how meaning of words is constructed even (or at least in some languages) | [13:42] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: eulora has those quite pithy "message of the day", among which there's the one I paraphrased there | [15:31] |
| diana_coman: | and your statement that it's quite normal to get along better with siblings only once not living together is pretty much that "loving, carrying and close-knit is great but mainly when far away too" | [15:32] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: is it bad that I agree with that quote? | [15:33] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: why /how would it be bad? | [15:40] |
| diana_coman: | dorion: greek is cannonical example there. | [15:41] |
| diana_coman: | but I suspect it's more a matter of the *people* speaking "the language" than language as a separate entity (if it can ever be separate anyway) | [15:41] |
| diana_coman: | ie your own definitions of words can be the simple-cut-out 4legs+plank style or the much more perceptive negative-space style | [15:42] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: well perhaps one could say that someone who wants a "loving, caring, and a closet-knit family, but from a distance" is not all that loving and caring. | [15:42] |
| diana_coman: | onth def of words is further iffy in that it inevitably depends on/draws in the speaker's own knowledge otherwise (and with rather unrestricted scope too) | [15:43] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: ahaha; no, not at all; it can mean several things out of a bunch but quite unlikely to mean "not all that loving and caring" | [15:44] |
| diana_coman: | closet-knit though is a different thing :D | [15:44] |
| whaack: | lol XD | [15:48] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: so why would you rather have them further away? | [15:48] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: i would have my friends/family 30 minutes away, ideally. close enough to make visits, but far enough so that there is cost to come over and say "come play with meeee" | [15:51] |
| diana_coman: | that's answering "what does further away mean", not "why" | [15:52] |
| diana_coman: | it's clearly that essentially you want to have your own space (and not just physical space) too which is perfectly adult-like, obviously. | [15:54] |
| whaack: | living near friends saps me of money, personal development, etc. this problem is twofold. (1) shitty friends (2) having an issue saying 'no' to the 'come play with meee' plea | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | aha | [15:54] |
| diana_coman: | they are related but yeah, make better friends and then you won't need to keep them "close but not too close" | [15:55] |
| diana_coman: | whenever you end up with sort of mitigation (that's what you are doing there with close but not that close), you are pretty much living with a broken thing really | [15:56] |
| whaack: | hmm ok | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | and while some broken things might perhaps be inevitable around or happen from time to time, they 1. will cost you 2. are not mandatory | [15:57] |
| diana_coman: | whaack: the trouble is not as much that "family is broken" but rather that you still rely on them for warmth and close-knit (and as a result you have to deal somehow with the natural rift otherwise) | [15:58] |
| diana_coman: | but anyway, as far as I understood you actually quite took care of this part ie you have your own place and time without forced "come play with meee" , no? | [16:00] |
| whaack: | diana_coman: yes! it is a problem that currently seems fixed and i feel 100\% better for it. | [16:00] |
| diana_coman: | good for you; and glad to hear it :) | [16:01] |
| davout: | diana_coman: cheers! long time indeed | [17:30] |
| diana_coman: | oh hey, wb davout ; where are you those days? | [17:30] |
| davout: | i'm in the uk right now | [17:32] |
| diana_coman: | ha; so come to reading/london some time? | [17:33] |
| davout: | sure why not, i'm in oxford so really not very far | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | did you get your pilot license or what? | [17:33] |
| diana_coman: | once in a blue moon I even still go to oxford but no idea when it's next blue moon,lolz | [17:34] |
| davout: | i literally got the license in the mail yesterday! | [17:34] |
| diana_coman: | congrats! | [17:34] |
| BingoBoingo: | Congrats davout. | [17:36] |
| diana_coman: | davout: so what brings you back? | [17:38] |
| davout: | BingoBoingo: cheers | [17:39] |
| davout: | mucho mas tiempo, and missing the republican intellectual stimulation tbh | [17:41] |
| davout: | BingoBoingo: what happened to pizzaro isp? | [17:43] |
| davout: | i had a cursory look for a summary, couldn't find one | [17:45] |
| diana_coman: | davout: this might be some summary including a bit re pizarro. | [17:47] |
| davout: | ty | [17:47] |
| diana_coman: | anyways, fire me an email and come for a coffee or lunch or something. | [17:48] |
| diana_coman: | will be back tomorrow | [17:49] |
| lobbes: | davout: congrats on the license (and wb) | [18:21] |
| davout: | your captain thanks you | [18:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | davout: Sales ever took off in the way they needed to to survive the datacenter going non-performant | [18:35] |
| davout: | yeah, i guess having your sole provider going full retard isn't exactly helpful | [18:37] |
| davout: | either | [18:37] |
| BingoBoingo: | Right now it's at the point where they lawyers are trying to work out the logistics of talking to each other. | [18:40] |
| trinque: | good evening davout | [18:40] |
| davout: | trinque: bonsoir! | [18:40] |
| davout: | BingoBoingo: yeah, i saw that bit, where even the language used in e-mail communication requires adjustment | [18:42] |
| BingoBoingo: | davout: Email communication has since stopped, nothing to communicate about through that channel. | [18:42] |
| BingoBoingo: | brb, air | [18:43] |
| jfw: | so my 'reflections' article just isn't anywhere publishable. Got maybe 80-90\% of planned content in the draft, but not reviewed at all, placeholder references and such. Trying to at least not snowball the mess to the review+planning but even that's looking iffy. | [23:45] |
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