Ossa Sepia

August 1, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for Aug 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 4:05 pm

Day changed to 2020-08-01
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/whoooore/ << Trilema — Whoooore!	[16:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Aug-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for Aug 2020	[16:07]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia newland0	[20:47]
deedbot:	newland0 voiced for 30 minutes.	[20:47]
diana_coman:	hi newland0	[20:47]
newland0:	Hi, I joined after seeing this: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Feb-2020/#1017844	[20:47]
sonofawitch:	2020-02-08 11:11:48 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: d41r2: to make it perfectly clear: you have the choice to go through all the log, collect those questions you ignored or refused to answer so far and then answer them in here one by one; only after you do that, you may ask for further clarification and/or talk in here; alternatively, you can of course either register a new key and restart this in a saner way and without all the stupid or otherwise get back to whatever you were doing …	[20:47]
newland0:	and figured, "this might be a place where one can learn things occasionally"	[20:47]
diana_coman:	it happens, indeed	[20:48]
diana_coman:	newland0: have you found younghands.club ?	[20:48]
diana_coman:	!!key newland0	[20:48]
deedbot:	Not registered.	[20:48]
newland0:	looking	[20:49]
diana_coman:	take your time; and ask your questions, too.	[20:49]
newland0:	why V instead of git? git is more code, but it's a full toolset that can be used essentially the same way and more	[20:51]
diana_coman:	newland0: how do you figure "the same way" ?	[20:51]
diana_coman:	even "essentially the same way", heh	[20:52]
newland0:	V seems like a way to exchange software and patches with trusted users	[20:53]
newland0:	git can do that also, so what am I missing?	[20:53]
diana_coman:	well, in between "seems like" and "can do that" there's a whole lot of "missing", you know? how can you go "can do that" when all you have for "that" is "it seems so"	[20:54]
trinque:	the order in which you stack things matters.	[20:55]
diana_coman:	let me dig out some refs for you, anyways	[20:55]
trinque:	one can bolt some crypto to the side of his git.	[20:55]
trinque:	this isn't the same as saying "the fundamental unit of the written word is a signed patch"	[20:55]
trinque:	there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from, were they built into a mature v client.	[20:56]
trinque:	they come on top of the sense, not before it.	[20:56]
diana_coman:	eh, and identity and what user even means and code starting with the reader not the writer …	[20:56]
diana_coman:	there's a whole maze of roots from which the "seems so" tiny leaf sprouts	[20:56]
diana_coman:	newland0: here's a quite recent talk re defining V anyway, perhaps it's easier to read and get some idea; then there is my attempted summary and from there you have also the canonical links to follow and the history and ~all of it.	[20:59]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 21:14:56 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman: I'm trying for a concise intro/description of V, in the present (post-Republic) context. Does this about capture it: "versioning system that supports owner control of computing by placing primary focus on the change and explicit management of trust through strong cryptography" ?	[20:59]
newland0:	"there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from" – yes	[20:59]
diana_coman:	newland0: how did you find the find that brought you here anyway?	[21:00]
newland0:	originally, saw a reference to trilema article(s) about wordpress xmlrpc.php being used as a ddos	[21:00]
newland0:	then other clicking around, recent comments, etc	[21:01]
diana_coman:	ah, so you just found trilema and then got in here? heh, not bad; only…take it slowly, there is a LOT to it; on the bright side, there is also plenty of time, no hurry.	[21:01]
newland0:	the rest of the info about v seems to answer the other part of my question	[21:02]
newland0:	"why not 'just' make git act as desired"	[21:02]
diana_coman:	newland0: on a side note, I've been toiling for…years already to make a different pile of …code let's say so we keep it civil, "act as desired"	[21:03]
newland0:	is that wp or something else?	[21:03]
newland0:	and not that git is amazingly coherent but it does offer all operations needed to manipulate patch chains	[21:03]
diana_coman:	see the Eulora category on my blog if you are ever curious; no, it's Eulora's client	[21:03]
newland0:	ok	[21:03]
diana_coman:	newland0: among the usual versioning system (ie pre-V), git is indeed the most useful, yes; this doesn't make it any sort of V though and the lack is fundamental; as trinque points out, one can glue to it whatever on the side but that's hardly worth doing.	[21:05]
newland0:	depends on priorities	[21:05]
diana_coman:	newland0: what are your priorities?	[21:05]
diana_coman:	(and no, you can't make a car by attaching an engine to a cart, no matter what your priorities are)	[21:06]
newland0:	"just get something reasonable working" vs "build it right", in that case	[21:07]
diana_coman:	what's unreasonable about V? lol	[21:07]
newland0:	no, "passable" vs "close to ideal"	[21:08]
diana_coman:	otherwise yes, indeed, there is certainly the sane "get it to work" vs the insane "gotta be perfect because the world is now perfect too" but V implementation is the working type, not the perfect sort	[21:09]
trinque:	this seems like a fruitless tack newland0, everyone here has used git.	[21:09]
trinque:	I'm curious what you actually want to know, as I think it's a layer beneath this question	[21:09]
newland0:	I think that starts to answer my question anyway, "why not use git for this?" "because you would get something perhaps barely passable"	[21:09]
newland0:	questions are tricky things	[21:09]
newland0:	and v (read only a tiny bit about it) vs git (used it every day for years) seemed like as good a starting point here as any	[21:10]
trinque:	there isn't really so much of a "vs" to it.	[21:10]
newland0:	in the sense of using a known reference point to try to understand something else, not in the sense of competition	[21:11]
trinque:	v solved a problem we had, which was more important to us than the problem you perceive that git solves.	[21:11]
newland0:	ok	[21:11]
newland0:	going to read more about that later, thanks for the context	[21:12]
trinque:	happy to continue to discuss whenever	[21:12]
diana_coman:	newland0: in your terms, I guess the answer would indeed be "because git is not passable"	[21:12]
trinque:	newland0: there are plenty of sad tales to read in re: trying to self-host linux, finding that upstream hosts of "packages" suddenly disappear, etc	[21:13]
trinque:	they lead to "why v"	[21:13]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia newland0	[21:17]
deedbot:	newland0 voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:17]
diana_coman:	newland0: if you register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and then you can !!up yourself (once per connection is enough, too)	[21:18]
newland0:	ok, multitasking, back later to do that	[21:25]
diana_coman:	no rush; usually I'm around for 1-2 hours starting from 7pm utc ; there may be others at other times but that's when the chan can get liveliest.	[21:26]
newland0:	got it	[21:27]
Day changed to 2020-08-02
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-apotheosis-machine/ << Trilema — The Apotheosis Machine	[18:09]
diana_coman:	!!key newland0	[22:08]
deedbot:	http://wot.deedbot.org/312D6A6806B515864E3843C4FD6E2F17FF418772.asc	[22:08]
diana_coman:	!!v 1A74DF1642039B928BB4E1F3D3EDFACBFE9B5609436DA9F6ACBCB039ECBB8030	[22:13]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated newland0 1 << Joined on seeing http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Feb-2020/#1017844	[22:13]
sonofawitch:	2020-02-08 11:11:48 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: d41r2: to make it perfectly clear: you have the choice to go through all the log, collect those questions you ignored or refused to answer so far and then answer them in here one by one; only after you do that, you may ask for further clarification and/or talk in here; alternatively, you can of course either register a new key and restart this in a saner way and without all the stupid or otherwise get back to whatever you were doing …	[22:13]
newland0:	so deedbot lies when you !!up without actually being in the channel	[23:36]
newland0:	cool thingy though	[23:36]
trinque:	I don't really see a strong argument for keeping track of whether you joined the channel.	[23:44]
trinque:	then I've got the added complexity of worrying about whether freenode's lying to me, etc	[23:45]
trinque:	I'd rather just have the thing obediently issue the IRC command you asked for, and let that be all.	[23:45]
newland0:	also works, and makes sense	[23:54]
Day changed to 2020-08-03
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Aug-2020/#1028309 – there is no argument at all; the bot does what it's asked to do and it's not at all its job to check if the user joined the channel.	[08:46]
sonofawitch:	2020-08-02 23:44:31 (#ossasepia) trinque: I don't really see a strong argument for keeping track of whether you joined the channel.	[08:46]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/oh-happy-days/ << Trilema — Oh happy days	[19:28]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/costa-ricas-first-and-only-bdsm-club/ << Trilema — Costa Rica's First and Only BDSM Club	[22:10]
Day changed to 2020-08-04
diana_coman:	whaack, what happened to you?	[21:11]
Day changed to 2020-08-05
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/slavery-reparations/ << Trilema — Slavery reparations	[02:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/05/you-will-have-to-push-my-buttons/ << Ossa Sepia — You Will Have to Push My Buttons	[17:06]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/05/eulora-logs-for-Aug-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for Aug 2020	[17:08]
whaack:	diana_coman: I've fallen a bit out of focus, but I'm still around and will return to working on the block explorer shortly	[20:55]
whaack:	jfw: I'd be happy to do this http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028229 when I have some time	[20:57]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-31 22:17:46 (#ossasepia) jfw: whaack: would you be interested in taking on taming the boost build system, i.e. replacing bjam with a plain makefile that builds only the necessary parts?	[20:57]
diana_coman:	whaack: cool then & good to know it.	[21:06]
jfw:	whaack: alright, no particular rush. I should add – what I proposed there isn't necessarily the only way the boost situation could be improved, though seems the most straightforward from a distance. Can discuss further when the time comes.	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw – from even more distance, it sounds to me like an accessible starting/entry point at least, so worth looking at anyway.	[21:19]
jfw:	yep. the whole "here are some source files, run a compiler on them then link" doesn't have to be nearly as complicated as it always seems to end up in the wild	[21:23]
diana_coman:	heh, one can define civilization whole by that "doesn't have to nearly as complicated as it always seems to end up in the wild"!	[21:32]
diana_coman:	but yeah, certainly true for compile+link	[21:32]
jfw:	hah, thought you might go for the generalization. also I don't mean it in a sense that "omg here's some suboptimal code, must fix it" but rather "here's an intolerable barrier to making sense of this mess, and relatively tractable beginner project"	[21:33]
diana_coman:	exactly so. (And yes, I took that was what you meant, it was quite clearly stated as such, indeed.)	[21:36]
jfw:	otherwise: cmake (ptui!) and gdb ports have come to Gales, and mysql 5.6.38 well underway with the dubious honor of being the thing to finally force the first two. I expect to publish these through another tarball release in the same style as the first (as there's no V based option ready to go and JWRD can't have a LAMP stack blocked on that right now).	[21:50]
diana_coman:	oh hey, that sounds quite useful actually, esp having mysql as option in there; (and huh, I hadn't realised cmake was mandatory for it, ugh)	[21:55]
Day changed to 2020-08-06
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/shattered-thoughts-and-disparate-notions/ << Trilema — Shattered thoughts and disparate notions	[15:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-07
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/hypersexualized-female-suicide-through-strangulation-an-illustrated-tutorial/ << Trilema — Hypersexualized female suicide through strangulation — an illustrated tutorial	[00:46]
Day changed to 2020-08-08
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-how-does-the-shutdown-relate-to-me-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – How Does The Shutdown Relate To Me? Adnotated.	[02:02]
Day changed to 2020-08-09
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/american-pie/ << Trilema — American Pie	[21:44]
Day changed to 2020-08-10
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/08/close-encounters-of-the-costa-rican-kind/ << The Whet — Close Encounters of the Costa Rican Kind	[01:37]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/soda-dungeon-2/ << Trilema — Soda Dungeon 2	[04:46]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-cho-seung-hui-its-the-movies-stupid-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – Cho Seung Hui: It's The Movies, Stupid. Adnotated.	[19:29]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-christopher-columbus-was-wrong-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – Christopher Columbus Was Wrong. Adnotated.	[21:13]
Day changed to 2020-08-11
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-reciprocal-determinism-and-why-punching-people-out-is-way-cool-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – Reciprocal Determinism And Why Punching People Out Is Way Cool. Adnotated.	[01:41]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-rage-of-the-average-joe-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – The Rage Of The Average Joe. Adnotated.	[03:51]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-taboos-are-the-ways-christians-try-to-control-us-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – Taboos Are The Ways Christians Try To Control Us. Adnotated.	[11:26]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-balls-of-schmaltz-and-the-end/ << Trilema — The balls of schmaltz and the end.	[18:51]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-wisdom-of-crowds-turns-into-madness-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – The Wisdom Of Crowds Turns Into Madness. Adnotated.	[20:23]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia new_yh\|93	[22:36]
deedbot:	new_yh\|93 voiced for 30 minutes.	[22:36]
diana_coman:	hello new_yh\|93	[22:36]
Day changed to 2020-08-12
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-you-are-the-98-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – You Are The 98%. Adnotated.	[18:29]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/12/what-the-fuck-planeshift/ << Ossa Sepia — What the Fuck, Planeshift?	[19:32]
Day changed to 2020-08-13
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/quiz-show/ << Trilema — Quiz Show	[02:17]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/vida-y-noche-en-centroamerica/ << Trilema — Vida y noche en Centroamerica	[05:14]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-psychological-uncertainty-principle-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – The Psychological Uncertainty Principle. Adnotated.	[22:14]
Day changed to 2020-08-18
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/08/no-we-cant-be-friends/ << Bimbo Club — No, we can't be friends.	[11:05]
Day changed to 2020-08-19
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/sheepeteering-sheepediah/ << Trilema — Sheepeteering Sheepediah	[19:52]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/anyways-i-was-interrupted/ << Trilema — Anyways, I was interrupted…	[22:48]
Day changed to 2020-08-20
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/20/the-gui-the-core-and-the-data/ << Ossa Sepia — The GUI, the Core and the Data	[17:50]
Day changed to 2020-08-21
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/sweet-smell-of-success/ << Trilema — Sweet Smell of Success	[19:29]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-two-popes/ << Trilema — The Two Popes	[21:58]
Day changed to 2020-08-22
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/thelastpsychiatristcom-parenting-and-personality-disorders-adnotated/ << Trilema — thelastpsychiatrist.com – Parenting and Personality Disorders. Adnotated.	[08:46]
Day changed to 2020-08-24
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/pp-irloff/ << Trilema — P&P, irl&off	[00:14]
diana_coman:	lol, that was quick, slacko238651	[20:33]
diana_coman:	whaack: what are you keeping busy with, those days?	[21:16]
Day changed to 2020-08-25
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-man-looked-down/ << Trilema — The man looked down…	[10:38]
Day changed to 2020-08-26
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/gosford-park/ << Trilema — Gosford Park	[00:57]
Day changed to 2020-08-27
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/things-i-have-been-doing/ << Trilema — Things I have been doing	[01:25]
trinque:	it is somewhat expected to see that whaack et al are less "men" than diana_coman, can't even dignify her with a response.	[02:05]
trinque:	ftr, this reflects solely on them.	[02:05]
whaack:	fair. i've been traveling a bit, surfing, working on a few saltmines tasks, and playing some chess. nothing of too much interest.	[02:39]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/stromboli/ << Trilema — Stromboli	[20:42]
diana_coman:	I suppose silence seems the easy answer in the usual way of "no immediate effort -> easy"	[21:32]
diana_coman:	and possibly a sort of "if it's not said, it does not exist" or something.	[21:40]
diana_coman:	The whole #o log for past year being as it is full of counterexamples to the above illusions, I don't expect any additional example will help but I admit I'm slightly surprised if anyone still imagines that not answering is somehow different from missing an opportunity, at best.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	no loss for the one asking for sure, just to be clear.	[21:59]
feedbot:	http://www.krankendenken.com/2020/08/everybody-wants-to-go-to-heaven-but-nobody-wants-to-die/ << Krankendenken — Everybody Wants to go to Heaven. But Nobody Wants to Die.	[23:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-28
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/billy-bathhouse/ << Trilema — Billy Bathhouse	[18:52]
diana_coman:	in case anyone is after a mini-puzzle on Friday evening: calculate the n-th number that is not a multiple of a given factor f; (had a bit of fun with this today on euloran grounds & will publish the formula in the next euloran dev update but those asked so far seem to tend to jump on a cvasi-solution that fails on corner cases).	[21:14]
Day changed to 2020-08-29
jfw:	diana_coman: if I understand rightly that the domain is positive integers and the prolbem is finding the n-th element of the sequence of numbers not multiples of f: from working some examples I've come up with f*(n-1)/(f-1) + 1, where / is of course integer division. Looks to me like it should be fully general, for f>1.	[00:38]
jfw:	to dinner	[00:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: it is, indeed, congrats!	[10:25]
jfw:	yay! 'twas a good size mini-puzzle, thanks for posting.	[21:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: glad to hear it; I thought it might have been too easy even and it was just that I previously asked the wrong people, lol	[21:06]
diana_coman:	ftr, the approach that I saw most often (and backfiring) seemed to go along the lines of "count and correct" with the correction causing the trouble.	[21:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: how's it going with getting mysql on gales?	[21:14]
jfw:	ah, that sounds like what I was trying in my head before writing some examples and seeing it's just division with some setup.	[21:15]
jfw:	mysql was going pretty well – then I managed to hose the bootloader on my Gales laptop, and discover this only later while away from my normal office & rescue media. At that point I dug back up some Scheme interpreter work, which has had my attention since (meanwhile we're still waiting for certainty on the deal that most motivated the mysql)	[21:18]
jfw:	meanwhile in "gardening", I've learned to reglaze/paint old wood frame windows	[21:21]
diana_coman:	huh, it's certainly an unexpected turn of events there; does the scheme interpreter work have its own motivating deal?	[21:22]
jfw:	not really; just something I'd been wanting to get back to for a while.	[21:23]
diana_coman:	to my eye and from a distance, there does seem to be a lot of getting back happening around.	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: any plan of getting back to writing, too?	[21:30]
jfw:	It does keep popping up as "I really ought to…" but nothing that amounts to a plan.	[21:31]
jfw:	not that the plan would be anything fancier than "1. Write something", haha	[21:32]
diana_coman:	lol, that's not a plan by any stretch, indeed. I guess in other words, you don't yet see anything of interest in either the writing itself or the blog-result.	[21:33]
jfw:	I can't seem to argue otherwise.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: I thought you were pretty busy with mysql and then presumably the rest following from there but since it turns out surprisingly that it's not the case or not atm, would you have any interest in setting up/running an irc-to-others bridge for me? somewhere in the background among the long list of things that await for me to grow more time in trees, there's this one too.	[21:41]
jfw:	hm, possibly; do you have software in mind and just need it deployed somewhere & maintained, or what?	[21:45]
diana_coman:	mainly it's a service I want, not as much specific software. Otherwise certainly, on one hand there are already all sorts of bridges that even work for various definitions of work. As usual, each with their own bunch of requirements re environment and/or constraints and/or set/subset of what they can and mostly can't do.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	and otherwise there is always curl, sure.	[21:51]
jfw:	do you know the "others" you want to bridge to? I'm not quite seeing where curl fits in, do they have http apis?	[21:55]
jfw:	perhaps my questions are too specific for now — what I'm after is some idea of what would be involved in providing the service & if I'm in a position to offer it.	[21:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: they tend to have http apis, yes; as for the list of others, it's open ended and meant to increase (possibly even decrease at times,lol) gradually	[21:59]
diana_coman:	for starters I'd want at least to have a proper look at whatever is supposedly going on in those very popular/latest honeypots	[22:00]
diana_coman:	discord, telegramm, whatever; it's still explore stuff, not like it's clear fully upfront or anything	[22:00]
diana_coman:	it's the sort of starting small and cheap, seeing if it's anything worth more to it or not.	[22:01]
jfw:	telegram I know has a kind of second-class "bot API" while the full protocol is a complex custom thing. Possibly the API's enough here though	[22:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: re whether in a position to offer it, I suppose you can't be; if you were, you'd be offering it already, really, so not sure what you mean there.	[22:02]
jfw:	haha. well I'm recalling lobbes and the php logger "omelette"	[22:04]
diana_coman:	I rather expect most have "a complex custom thing" but I'm not sure it's very healthy to care all that much about their complex custom thing; the point is to get what is useful, NOT at all in itself to implement their protocol or something, ugh	[22:04]
diana_coman:	lol, I can see what you mean then.	[22:05]
jfw:	seems like it would be a good experience to work on that sort of exploratory thing, finding how to get at what's useful without getting too deep into any one of the pits	[22:08]
jfw:	that sounds like system administration in general actually	[22:09]
diana_coman:	ahaha, possibly like working in computers in general, even!	[22:09]
diana_coman:	in/with/around/anywhere near the damned things.	[22:10]
jfw:	diana_coman: can I get back to you in a week? we should have a clearer picture of where the jwrd workload will be at by then.	[22:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure.	[22:12]
jfw:	cool, ty.	[22:12]
jfw:	as someone also interested in finding younger blood this is also directly interesting to me though.	[22:14]
diana_coman:	so perhaps we can work something out; it's certainly not burning atm.	[22:15]
diana_coman:	I'll add also for the record that eulora quite specifically does not include any in-game chat via the game server (as it can be easily noticed from the total absence of "chat" in the communications protocol).	[22:18]
jfw:	I suppose you can either figure out how to IRC or else code messages by having your character do dances like a honeybee	[22:25]
diana_coman:	well, I'm sorely tempted to add a button "talk to" to the context/gui interface, just to aggravate the user on every click on it, there is that.	[22:28]
jfw:	:q	[22:37]
jfw:	gah!	[22:37]
Day changed to 2020-08-30
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/adding-a-new-socket-option-to-sbcl-or-common-lisp-is-the-death-of-me << The Tar Pit — Adding a new socket option to SBCL; or, Common Lisp is the death of me	[15:40]
Day changed to 2020-08-31
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-thumbs-up-and-other-dents-in-the-substrate-of-perception/ << Trilema — The thumbs up and other dents in the substrate of perception	[04:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/08/31/in-euloran-moving-updates-inner-slots-and-outer-wheels/ << Ossa Sepia — In Euloran Moving Updates: Inner Slots and Outer Wheels	[21:44]

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July 30, 2020

What’s Eulora’s GUI Going to Be Like?

Filed under: Coding,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 12:57 pm

Against my own expectations, it seems there’s little resistance left even in that mess of paws: it took less than a week to map it all out quite fully this time, discard yet another set of dead parts of it, cut its remaining tendrils and pretense to “independent plugin, part of a common trunk, not just some code in the client”, bring it therefore quite in line (though not to internal sanity, it still is what it is) and ready to be made use of, without crashing and without complaining that it doesn’t have graphics or skins or resources or whatever else it previously imagined that the user must provide. For instance, here’s the gui just using the system’s mouse pointer if nothing else is available and the help window gladly showing whenever it’s asked to show, looking as best it can with whatever is available at that time:

Having thus made sure that indeed, I can make paws do something useful after all, I’m literally staring at the pile of neatly sorted entrails of the whole thing and I can’t make up my mind for the life of me – *what* is even the desired use of this paws-paste? So I’ll first write down the brief description of what’s there and then I’ll spell out this generic question into several more specific questions that can hopefully be answered.

The current client’s GUI interface is essentially a lame and broken attempt at implementing the world hierarchy from a… visual perspective ¹. There’s a top “controlling” ² window that keeps track of all the others and does in fact the generic figuring out as to what window is the user interacting with, which ones should show and which ones should hide, all that sort of thing. Being of course a visually controlled world, the top window ends up being… that menu bar at the top (see? it’s at the top, right?) of the screen, with the inventory and the quit button and whatnot. It’s true that there is otherwise *also* a “mainwidget” thing but… that’s just the overall container and doesn’t do much at all. Don’t ask me why can’t that mainwidget be actually main and therefore control the rest, it just isn’t. And because those are just windows and the whole codebase at the time simply couldn’t do without managers, there’s on top of this top a pawsManager with its very own textureManager.

The pawsManager is meant as far as I can tell as the entry point to the paws itself – at least when entertaining the delusion that paws is or can somehow be separate of the rest. The textureManager is one of those endless glorified list-keepers: it keeps its own list of filename-resourcename equivalencies for all images that the GUI uses and otherwise interfaces load/find from the engine’s own textureManager, of course. The meagre claim to purpose it has beyond that of list-keeping would be that it packs in one place some format-related processing of 2D images that are supposedly helpful in some cases (though it’s unclear if there are all that many such cases in current use). Anyways, aiming to keep changes to a minimum, it can live as such and keep its list too, since I have no intention of saddling EuCore with any internals of the GUI/skin now. There’s of course a whole dance around in both pawsManager and its textureManager with translating strings (literally, the “localization” because apparently it makes somehow sense to shove that concern in there), defining “styles” (there’s skins and then there’s… styles; because one S is not enough and nevermind there’s no game worth even one capital letter, yet, we’ll add styles to the interface and that’ll be grand!) and making oh-so-sure that one is never, ever, under any possible circumstances somehow left without – gasp! – a loaded “skin”. Additional, even smaller concerns abound too but by now we get to the microscopic so I’ll let them be already, suffice to say that if I’ll ever need an example of pointless polishing of irrelevancy, I can certainly use that code.

Past the 2 managers and 2 top-widgets, there is the indistinct mass of …more widgets. Basically *everything* in the GUI is a widget, from one single slot in the inventory window to the whole inventory window itself. Here I can happily report that indeed, the “off with its dolly” task was most satisfyingly carried out: there were 2 (two!) classes on top of all the usual widget+xml defined just to *support* that and several tendrils sneaking out into non-paws parts too and oh, what joy to cut them out already!

Dolly cast aside and readily forgotten, the reduced pile of widgets is still a considerable pile and otherwise waiting for either full chop or partial cut, depending on what exactly turns out in the least useful in there. The “design” of the whole thing is that each widget has a code class (in client/gui mostly) that is meant to implement what the widget does (and even if it doesn’t – there still has to be this code present as a means to register and create the thing, useless as it might be) and an .xml file (in data/gui currently) that defines in principle the layout of the corresponding window to be shown in game, including size, position, contained widgets and used “resources” aka icons and other images. In practical terms this means that new or different widgets still require touching the client, there’s no “download this” and run with it really. At a stretch, the .xml layout files could be made perhaps part of the “GUI” .zip and so something that can be downloaded from the server and used but there’s a very tight coupling between the code and the .xml so that it’s unclear to me if there’s much point to it anyway. So Q1 of those more specific questions would be here: is the layout of various GUI windows something we even consider part of a “skin” definition and hence up to GUI designers to produce as part and parcel of offering a client skin for use?

Even after the above trim, there still are about 100 widgets with their corresponding 100 .xml files, so I would rather not list them in here – the list is anyway quite easy to get with a simple ls data/gui in the deployed client’s dir. The more specific question here is Q2: what windows do we actually need in the whole interface anyway? I can’t quite see the point of 100 windows and it really all seems to me more a matter of ill-thought “design” in the first place, fitting slots in places by hand and adjusting them to be just-so, the usual sort of “artistic” approach to it all. I rather think there has to be a small subset of elements that will do it all and better anyway but at least currently I don’t even quite know where to start from with it, as it’s not all that clear to me what sort of things we need in the first place. I can even see the point in saying it’s too early to bother with that and move on to implementing more of the functionality so that what is needed emerges from there but on the other hand the GUI has to start with something/from somewhere too.

Going through the list of main things as seen from a player perspective so far in Eulora, the Q2 above can get further refined: the most complex window in there is the chat window – does this even still make any sense or should this be only and at most a cli window in fact? Windows like the storage for instance were relatively ok in the beginning and then an utter pain when one has a full storage, reminding me quite precisely of the more generic windows-vs-cli computer use really – do we still want a storage window at all? And where does this stop anyway, as on one hand I can keep going and wonder if the inventory window is useful as such (perhaps it’s at least pretty to see them all!) or the container or …which of those 100 total, in the end? (Then again, I’m a cli radical apparently (hence my asking here), regardless of all the fun I had making textures, heh.)

Windows and widgets aside for a moment, the GUI graphical elements as such would be a set of tiny icons like arrow-this-way and that-way, backgrounds, buttons, scrollbars and the like. Currently even this is a bit of a mess in that there’s no standard set at all, but a proliferation of arrow-up and arrowUp that are two different arrows pointing “up” (and this is probably what they tried to solve with the whole “styles” layer of grime on top, myeah). Nevertheless and as boring as it sounds to do it, a basic set can certainly be extracted and then forced even upon the existing widgets, certainly. The potentially troublesome part though comes from a current ugly mix of actual GUI elements (e.g. buttons) and 2D representations of game objects (e.g. a key in inventory). The currently deployed client makes no real difference and effectively lists those 2D representations as GUI “resources” like all the rest (so for all the fun, one could in principle very well set their buttons to look like Omlette Du Disgorge, why not). While I have nothing against buttons looking like omlette-du-disgorge, game objects are a very different category from GUI elements and I don’t think they should be mixed at all. Even focusing solely on the very practical perspective, GUI elements get their representations (if any) from a skin.zip file (if it exists at all), while game objects are first of all a potentially infinite set, not known upfront and even potentially changeable on an item by item basis during play. So question Q3 here would be: does this separation make sense or is there some better way to go about sorting this out? (As I’ll need to sort out this part at some point anyway, it can’t really remain as it is.)

All the above out of the way and in the open for discussion, I can happily report that the client’s code continues to shrink for now as it increases in usefulness and otherwise there are still parts that will end up most likely discarded in the end, as they get increasingly left behind (the original net part comes first to mind). While there is still quite a lot to implement on both client and serverside, I think the next steps will have to be alternating client and server development, introducing the new things (finally!) and sorting out otherwise what troubles remain, as they pop up. In other words, there’s still a lot of hard work ahead but finally getting out of the swamps and it’s such joy to be out of them too!

The attempt is so visible and the whole thing is so broken from so many points of view that I don’t even have the heart to laugh at it anymore. It’s one of those things that are not even wrong yet.[↩]
The corresponding parent classes are even called exactly that, for bonus points of similarity of names being a great thing in code: controlwindow and controlledwindow.[↩]

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July 24, 2020

Those Zip Files of Eulora’s Client Graphics

Filed under: Coding,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 12:39 pm

Wandering all alone and growing quite bored of seeing the same familiar empty space, the twisted hopeful glanced all of a sudden an unexpected shiny item sticking out of the ground and in plain view:

What could that be and where did it come from? It wasn’t there before and there’s no guarantee it will remain there either but there is now finally the possibility for any number of such items to be anywhere at all in Eulora. And now that this part is done as well, the client has finally all it needs to render -though not yet to control or interact with- all three main types of 3D things: the world itself (terrain, sky, water), moving characters be they NPCs or players (Cal3D) and non-moving items (CS meshes). In all cases, the “graphical representation” is simply a .zip file. The contents of this .zip file can change and there’s plenty of flexibility in there with only a few “must-have” things nailed down for now – even those can change later on without much trouble, since a .zip file remains a .zip file otherwise and knowing how to use what is inside is entirely a client concern.

The current client 2.0 aims to look for and use what it knows, while not getting stuck on anything additional that might be in there. So it uses currently some very simply conventions regarding filenames inside those .zip archives and simply picks up the first matching files it finds inside: anything starting with “tex” is assumed to be a texture and its extension is assumed to match the format (.dds, .png, .jpg all work fine); anything starting with “mesh” is assumed to be a mesh description and interpreted depending on the context as either CS mesh format or Cal3D format (binary or xml depending on extension); anything starting with “skel” is a skeleton file; animation files are always exactly walk.caf, idle.caf (so far those 2 are the only ones the client knows about). As examples, here’s what the current test set of .zip files contain:

For Outdoors (the filenames here are fixed indeed as they all have very specific roles):
- basemap.png
- heightmap.png
- lightmap.png
- materialmap.png
- norm_1.dds
- norm_2.dds
- norm_3.dds
- normalmap.png
- sky.png
- tex_1.dds
- tex_2.dds
- tex_3.dds
For Cal3D:
- skel.xsf – the file containing the skeleton in Cal3D format. This can be either xml (.xsf) or binary format (.csf) and the client will simply use whatever is provided.
- walk.caf – the animation to be used when this character “walks”. This has to be currently in binary Cal3D format because reasons.
- idle.caf – the animation to be used when this character is standing/sitting still. As for walk, this has to be in binary Cal3D format.
- mesh_*.xmf – this hopeful happens to be made out of 26 meshes so there are 26 such files, simply numbered mesh_1.xmf to mesh_26.xmf. The client will just load as many mesh files as it finds, that’s all.
- tex.png – the texture to use on all meshes. In principle there could be as many texture files as meshes so that each mesh has its own texture. It’s not a big trouble to adapt the client to use them but at the moment it just picks the first tex* file it finds and it uses it for all meshes in that .zip file.
For CS mesh:
- meshfact_1.xml – the description of the mesh in CS “meshfact” xml format (NOT library format, see below the more detailed discussion why not library).
- tex_1.png – the texture to use for this mesh. This can be in principle *any* graphical format. The current client can and will happily use .dds, .png or .jpg just as well.

Compared to the previous iteration, the “outdoors” type bundled together water, terrain and sky because in practical terms they always go together indeed. There is here one part that I’m still hesitating about: while the size of “sectors” is fixed and doesn’t need to be therefore sent (or at least not at this level), it’s unlikely that this will also match any indoor areas that are to be separate areas as such and the trouble is that the loader needs to specifically set those. One way to go about this would be perhaps to make a different type specifically for “indoors” and give all this additional information required there in the euloran object itself (arguably even the outdoors type might be better off with some specified there, if or when they may change). The main question I have here is: what is fixed about outdoors and indoors (as the cs part has a lot of parameters and very few turn out to be of any use in the end)? More specifically, given the protocol specification, the size of an outdoors sector is fixed and as a result, the client can just create a fixed-size sphere for “sky” for instance and a fixed “cell” size for the terrain and so on. Is this size fixed for indoor places too or could those be smaller/larger?

As to the latest addition from the list above, namely the CS mesh items, getting them to work included a few ugly surprises that slowed me down a bit more than I initially expected. Nevertheless, as there’s otherwise less resistance left in that paste than at the initial stages, it didn’t take all that much to whip it up into something useful. First, the format I had used previously based on existing client’s “art” files turned out to be less than ideal for a rather unexpected reason: the CS loader would happily load it but it wouldn’t provide any means to obtain directly a way to reference the loaded mesh – it assumed the caller would know that from somewhere else or otherwise find it somehow ¹. To fully get this: CS insists on referencing everything by “name” hence effectively by string-ids and the names of loaded stuff from a library file are …specified in the xml but otherwise not returned by the loader itself! So to find a factory or a mesh, the code would need to either read it specifically from the xml (ugh!) or otherwise assume it matches something else through some convention forced thus by… lack of options (because no, I don’t want to have the server now be concerned with fixing the names of meshes clientside, wtf). The solution I found to this is to not use “libraries” at all since anyway each of them contains exactly one meshfactory and then load that factory with whatever name there might be in the xml but *change* it from the code to the name that is useful to the client (and that’s …the ID of the darned object, ofc, what else, only made into a string to fit CS’s expectations, yes). It took a while to figure this out, mainly because finding the way to simply rename things is made… interesting by means of Object Oriented (OO) obfuscation layers so that the code can end up at times like this: meshWrapper->GetFactory()->GetMeshObjectFactory()->GetMaterialWrapper()->QueryObject()->GetName(). Count the layers and laugh at it but know that it’s not even the worst that OO can do!

Once the above sorted, there was some more work to cut that GEM crap on items too and then to follow up and look into all the resulting, inevitable crashes given the spaghetti pointers running all around. At least I used the opportunity to look also into the way that PS used to do “effects” – it’s a useless pile of crap on top of some tidbits of usefulness from the underlying CS, not that it comes as any surprise. The surprising part was that “labels” (e.g. names of characters) used to be… “effects” and thus bringing in the whole crashing monster of stuff. Well, labels presumably will be useful so they are on my list to add as part of sorting out the 2D part of the interface but I refuse to bring in for this reason a whole set of useless “managers” and corresponding plugins and 1001 classes that do the same thing only now it’s called labels and then it’s called shadows and then again it gets its name changed so that a different “contributor” can sign at the top of the file. Such contributions that one is way, way better off without any of them.

At any rate, having now sorted non-moving items as well, the next step really has to be looking into the 2D GUI stuff more closely, hence… PAWS. There’s no estimate I can really make (only heavy guesstimates) on how long it will take to make *that* into something useful but I’ll keep to my heuristic that served me very well so far and I’ll write up whatever stage I got to, whenever it needs unloading and certainly not later than in 2 weeks’ time.

How? well, that’s I suppose exactly how one ends up with all those .xml files just to tell what is in those other .xml files and then load some upfront and expect they know it all, too. Like will all madness, it’s not that there’s no logic involved, there is in fact plenty and at each step – it’s only that the root is entirely misplaced. And yes, I am fully aware that those perceiving the roots of my own work as misplaced will therefore assign the madness label to my own work and my own self. A label though never did anything though, nor will it ever do by itself.[↩]

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July 16, 2020

Client-Paste Says Yes, It Can

Filed under: Coding,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 5:12 pm

There’s still quite some work to do before having a fully working client as well, but I can happily report that the most important part for that auto-updating version of the client is indeed in place and working: an initial prototype client 2.0 can now start happily with nothing at all (no keys, no graphics, no knowledge of the world at large) and then generate keys, obtain an account, retrieve (and check) sector and model files, load them when it got them, even let the resulting euloran move about and admire its reflection in the wonderful water by the rocks:

For future reference and current unloading of a fresh set of troubles sorted, here’s the list of main updates done on the clientside:

EuCore (data acquisition logic, Ada):
1. Setting RNG source via config file: whatever string the user provides in there (e.g. “/dev/urandom” or “/dev/ttyUSB0” or “/silly/ass”) will be used as source of “random bits”; NB: the indicated source, whatever it might be, is considered already initialised in whatever manner is required, since it makes no sense at all to try and initialize from EuCore’s code a source that can be set to anything at all. For all the apparent “easy” label on this additional knob, there was a significant headache to make it right, since the RNG source is used from both C/CPP code and Ada code so that it has to be set across language-borders, not to mention in the precise direction previously-avoided-to-keep-things-neat-and-less-confusing. Not that I can recall *any* time when I got to keep over long term any of those parts that were easier, it’s just not my thing or something. What can I say – it’s done now and it’s working (the default is urandom).
2. Setting a “sync” interval – meaning how often the user wants EuCore to attempt to resync its local data with the server. This is important mainly as a means for the user to find the compromise they want between generating traffic (which has a cost) and otherwise keeping their local data cache up to date (since out of date information can presumably make play rather less than ideal). Worth noting here that this “sync” interval is important for movement update and for requesting World Bulletins regardless of other triggers that might apply.
3. Creating account and obtaining BOTH sets of Serpent keys from the server – this got a refactoring and update to reflect the clear separation between EuCore that does *all* data logic, acquisition, storage and so on (hence it’s the only part that can request creation of RSA keys for a new account for instance) and what is simply a dumb GUI – the former “client” that will focus exclusively on using and presenting data that is present, nothing more. There was also still pending – due to previous lack of clarity at least in my understanding of this part – the issue regarding the initial set of Serpent keys for communication with the client. While the protocol allows for the client to generate those and send them to the server, at the moment the client will simply keep sending request for an account until it receives those too. Perhaps at a later stage I’ll get back to this and implement also the option + knob to generate them locally and send them to the server but this can certainly still wait.
4. Updated EuCache (the actual data storage structure that provides thread-safe access) to reflect the latest, streamlined data model.
5. Updated the data acquisition logic to actually send requests to the server for each and any bit of missing data (be it object or file) as soon as it becomes aware it’s missing. This includes proper packing of file requests in as few messages as needed (instead of firing up the wasteful one message for each request).
6. Updated handling of objects to fully update local data cache correctly (in short: adding those in server’s view and not in client’s view, deleting those in client’s view but not in server’s view, asking for anything missing and fully walking the structure at regular intervals, to ensure re-sync).
7. Updated handling of file received messages so that chunks are saved as received and the Keccak hash of the file is calculated + checked against expected value at the end, deciding on whether the resulting file is kept and made available to the GUI or otherwise deleted (+ new request sent to the server, to resend it). NB: the approach here is very basic for now in that chunks are literally saved in the order received and therefore it’s enough to have 1 message lost or out of order to result in an incorrect file and therefore repeat the request. I’m sure that this can be made better – not so sure though that it’s worth the trouble to sink time to make it better *right now* and so there it is, low hanging fruit for anyone who wants to improve their client.
8. Updated interface towards the GUI to reflect the new understanding that the actual needs of the GUI are way, way simpler than the full complexity that the protocol and more generally the world structure allows (and here’s an example of where the doing-it-all kind of made me stumble because even when it’s the “same thing”, it’s from different perspectives, of course and so I need to keep them all in mind at the same time and change swiftly between them, oh joy). At any rate, now the interface provides the sort of packing that the GUI finds useful, while taking otherwise advantage of EuCache’s data structures that reflect the actual hierarchy of the world. That’s pretty much the part that wasn’t quite that obvious for me until now – the dumb GUI is in fact way, way flatter than the actual world as it were and as such, there’s really no point to make the GUI more intelligent than it can handle. Let the GUI be an idiot that is forever concerned only with “what can I see *right now*” and that’s that, everything all of a sudden starts to fit, too.
GUI (the former “client”, cpp) side:
1. Refactored the SMGData interface to work with the latest EuCore interface and provide a single point of access to all data, from objects to files. Sorted out here some unexpected issues with importing constants from Ada into C as well.
2. Nailed down a working model for this whole GUI stuff: there’s a logic (such as it is) part that will then make use of all the paste that used to be pompously “the client”, from pscelclient to psmovementmanager and whatever. Sorting this out was a pain but the result is a very welcome insulation from the rapidly-spiralling-into-madness mess. In other words: while the mess is still there for it will take ages to fully eradicate, one doesn’t have to work neck-high into it *at all times* anymore! At times, a descent into that is still needed but I’m finally at the stage where it’s “at times” as opposed to “all the time”.
3. Updated and refactored loader actually capable of making full use of .zip files that were acquired *after* client startup! This was such a pain to get working, as the virtual file system thing is rather poorly documented and quite clunky at times. Nevertheless, it … works!
4. Prototype implementation of “soft reset” – essentially the PS code insisted that one needs to go through 1001 things in 10001 places to just clean up if/when the sector changes for instance but then it turned out that CS has this nice and shiny red button to …DeleteAll! And once that is done, PS can go and get stuffed since there’s not much it can do anyway. So the prototype so far aims to simply do such a soft reset if something crucial like the sector or the player themselves suddenly change – it would seem possible that we don’t actually have to end up with the sort of Windows-style-restart-the-client, after all.

Aside from the above, there are many other smaller details and issues sorted as they appeared – some of them might even further change as everything takes further shape. So far though I’m satisfied that the former client-code is finally just about paste-enough to be of some actual use instead of unrelenting pain and misery.

The next steps are for now to iron out some remaining weirds in the current minimal prototype and to further develop the actual use of data from the GUI since for now there’s really only the sector+player check, retrieval and loading of corresponding graphics assets but nothing further connected. Local movement works, of course, but it’s all local and moreover, the GUI doesn’t yet request from EuCore anything *other* than the player itself and the sector where they happen to be.

On the write-up front, there’s the structure of the .zip files for sector + cal3d models to write and publish. All is quite clear and neat there but I need to find some time for it and I might possibly do first the loading of CS meshes too.

On the iffiest client-side part remaining, the paws widgeting mess looms largest. At the moment I can’t tell if or to what extent I can sidestep it/any of it but I’m certainly not keen at all to get into that swamp even an inch more than is absolutely and unavoidably required.

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July 12, 2020

#eulora Logs for Jul 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:36 pm

Day changed to 2020-07-12
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/minigame-smg-statement-on-q2-2020/ << Trilema S.MG — MiniGame (S.MG) Statement on Q2 2020	[22:36]
Day changed to 2020-07-16
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/16/client-paste-says-yes-it-can/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Client-Paste Says Yes, It Can	[19:18]
Day changed to 2020-07-24
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/24/those-zip-files-of-euloras-client-graphics/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Those Zip Files of Eulora's Client Graphics	[14:46]
Day changed to 2020-07-30
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/30/whats-euloras-gui-going-to-be-like/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — What's Eulora's GUI Going to Be Like?	[15:02]

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Making Short Work of a Squirrel’s Winter Stores

Filed under: Lyf,Young, old and oldest — Diana Coman @ 3:35 pm

Once upon a time, in a far-far away countryside, we, the half-foreign, part-time inhabitants of a house rather than a tree, had to be quicker and craftier than the local squirrels to get and enjoy any walnuts from all those mighty trees that lined the slopes we used to call our courtyard. We were smaller then and younger then so we didn’t care much to make a difference anyway but walnut hunting was serious business indeed – at least for those of us that loved the fruit, I guess. Armed with sticks and nothing else, we turned the leaves around and otherwise we slowly inched our way forwards, one foot at a time, gently setting it down tentatively on the thick blanket of fallen leaves, alert to feel underneath, without breaking it, the tough and round shape of a walnut quite invisible otherwise in the very place where it belonged – where it simply blended in, just another fallen thing from the same tree, like all the rest.

Once a walnut found, we’d take it as it was and keep it alongside others directly at our breast, full of dirt for sure, with remains of decaying, soft, once-green covering still hanging in tatters around its not yet dry shell otherwise. Sometimes the squirrels had gotten to it first and we’d know it as soon as we lifted the walnut for it felt too light and then it showed easily the little hole through which the goodness inside had been taken away already – what was left, feeling way too light in our small hands, was simply a bit of almost wood, something to throw perhaps in the stove as easy offering to a young and still hesitant flame but nothing more.

When we – or rather our tops – couldn’t carry anymore, we’d go and unload them all in a pile, letting them dry for a while, out of the reach of our reddish competitors with furry tails and marble eyes. Then we’d clear away the last remains of the soft coverings, we’d eat our fill and set the rest within metal wire containers made especially for the purpose – for the storage of all dried fruit was up in the attic, where squirrels could and did get at times but where the heat from the stove downstairs would make the air both dusty-dry and fragrant otherwise with the aromas of everything set up there as dry preserves. And on cold, white winter evenings, when bored of our games or simply made hungry as only that mountain air can make children hungry, we’d climb through the squeaky trap-door of the attic into that store-room of our own and bring downstairs anything we wanted to snack on, for it was rightly ours after all, won fairly and squirrely. We ate most of it too quickly to allow for much preparation or further cooking otherwise and in fairness all that fruit really was perfect exactly as it was – at least perfect for us, the biggest squirrels in that neighbourhood at the time.

Meanwhile I grew up and I went far away from those walnut trees, those slopes, that old attic with its squeaky trap-door and dust dancing in the filtered light of early afternoons. I’m not really hunting for walnuts on the garden floor either, though possibly I’m still a bit of squirrel since I still like walnuts quite a lot – it’s only that I got now way better ways to get them all cleaned up and ready to eat, waiting for me in a bowl at any time. But since there’s abundance of walnuts, as well as time freed up by not having to hunt for them one by one, I take the opportunity at times and make short work of a whole squirrel’s winterstores in one go, just scroll forwards for the pictures of this one single batch out of many and deplore those who have no idea what they are missing.

It all starts with walnuts – lots of them, but set out in batches neatly on a cutting board, for heartless crushing with a rolling pin (well, a rolling pin makes it easy but if you want to sweat it out, use whatever else you can find around, sure):

While walnuts are getting crushed, sugar – brown or otherwise – gets heated in a pan until it melts and is quite ready to take your skin off if you are silly enough to touch it directly. This is definitely an activity entirely not “safe” and otherwise fully discriminating against the unexperienced (as well as the idiots) in the kitchen – I therefore enjoy it all the more and use it at times to scare any silly kids around, age irrespective:

Crushed walnuts get then tipped into bubbling sugar-lava and a wet wooden spoon is most useful to mix it all up quickly enough so it sticks together without gluing your spoon to the pan itself (you can use your finger instead, if you fancy it burnt to the bone, sure):

Tip it off back on to the cutting board that meanwhile got washed and is therefore nicely wet (so you don’t end up needing to scrape it all off the board). Wet a big knife too – the bigger the better, especially if you have to scare anyone away at the same time – and flatten the hot but quickly setting mass into whatever shape you want, cut it into pieces of the exact size and shape your heart desires, set them onto a plate and try to find the camera before they all vanish mysteriously behind your back:

We used to call the above walnuts-in-caramel sweet “susan” and that would stand for “sesame”, though happily I can fully testify that it has nothing whatsoever to do with sesame, indeed!

Comments (3)

July 8, 2020

EuCrypt addition: Keccak File Hashing

Filed under: Coding,EuCrypt — Diana Coman @ 1:37 pm

Since the client data model includes Keccak hashes for files received from Eulora’s server and the files themselves may be of any size whatsoever, it follows that both client and server have to be able to use EuCrypt’s Keccak sponge sequentially too – basically feeding it data in chunks as opposed to all in one go, as a single input (be it bitstream or bytestream). ¹ So I got my Ada reference book out on the desk again and it turns out that it’s not even all that difficult really – even though this addition has to be yet another package on top of the existing ones in EuCrypt, mainly because such type of use breaks by definition the stateless guarantee provided by the “single input” use and in turn, this would then propagate to all code that uses the Keccak package (and that’s the encryption scheme, mainly). Therefore, rather than forcing now stateful code everywhere just because there’s a need to calculate hashes for files on the disk, I simply provide this file-hashing as a separate package using the same underlying sponge. Quite as it should even be, I would say: there is only one sponge implementation but there are now two options to using it for hashing, namely a stateless one for data that is held entirely in memory (the one that existed already) and a stateful one for data that is fed sequentially (my new code). As this is now implemented, tested and integrated into the respective parts on both client and server, I’d rather take the time and write it down as well, to unload it and have it all in one place.

The approach here is very straightforward: keep a sponge’s state locally, read from the input file blocks as big as the sponge can handle in one go (and add if needed padding to the last block), pass each block as soon as read on to the sponge, scramble the state and repeat until the whole file has been processed; then squeeze out of the sponge a block and return its first 8 octets given that the hash is meant to be that size. Ada’s Sequential_IO package simply needs to be provided with the type of element to read and then it works like any other file input/output, without any trouble. In principle, the most effective implementation would be to read a whole block (ie as many octets as the sponge can absorb in one go) each time but this means that one has to handle at file reading time the special case of the last block that may be incomplete. For now at least I preferred to sidestep this and I went instead for the cheap and angry solution that seems however perfectly adequate for current needs: simply read a file octet by octet, so that there is no special case at all. Here’s the code that does it all:

  -- for reading files one Octet at a time
  package Octet_IO is new Ada.Sequential_IO(Element_Type =>
                                              Interfaces.Unsigned_8);

  function Hash_File(Filename: in String; Hash: out Raw_Types.Octets_8)
      return Boolean is
    F: Octet_IO.File_Type;
    S: Keccak.State := (others => (others => 0));
    Block_Len: Keccak.Keccak_Rate := Keccak.Default_Byterate;
    Block: Keccak.Bytestream(1..Block_Len);
    Pos: Keccak.Keccak_Rate;
  begin
    Octet_IO.Open(F, Octet_IO.In_File, Filename);
    -- check that this is not an empty file as hashing of that is nonsense
    if Octet_IO.End_Of_File(F) then
      Octet_IO.Close(F); -- close it before returning!
      return False;
    end if;

    -- read from file and absorb into the sponge
    while not Octet_IO.End_Of_File(F) loop
      -- read block by block
      Pos := 1;
      while Pos <= Block_Len and (not Octet_IO.End_Of_File(F)) loop
        Octet_IO.Read(F, Block(Pos));
        Pos := Pos + 1;
      end loop; -- single block loop
      -- if it's an incomplete block, it needs padding
      if Pos <= Block_Len then
        -- pad it with 10*1
        Block(Pos..Block'Last) := (others => 0);
        Block(Pos) := 1;
        Block(Block'Last) := Block(Block'Last) + 16#80#;
      end if;
      -- here the block is complete, padded if needed.
      -- absorb it into the state
      Keccak.AbsorbBlock( Block, S);
      -- scramble state
      S := Keccak.Keccak_Function( S );
    end loop; -- full file loop
    Octet_IO.Close(F);

    -- now squeeze a block and get the 8 octets required
    Keccak.SqueezeBlock( Block, S);
    Hash := Block(1..8);

    -- if it got here, all is well, return true.
    return True;
  exception
    when others =>
      Octet_IO.Close(F);
      return False;
  end Hash_File;

Note that the above returns the *raw* Keccak hash, meaning the direct output of the sponge, as a set of octets. This is normally fine and well but if one specifies the hash as “unsigned 64”, it means that the above set of octets has to be interpreted as a number – and in turn, this means that byte/bit order matters. Since this can and does create confusion quite easily, I’ll state it here plainly again: the raw output of the Keccak sponge is MSB/b, meaning that on a little endian machine, you’ll need to flip both bytes and bits if you want to get the exact same number as you would on a big endian machine! Since this is however something that I already sorted out before, I added to the above convenient wrappers to do this properly so that the whole code should work seamlessly on both big and little endian computers anyway:

  function Hash_File(Filename: in String; Hash: out Interfaces.Unsigned_64)
      return Boolean is
    Raw: Raw_Types.Octets_8;
  begin
    -- calculate the raw hash and then convert it
    if Hash_File(Filename, Raw) then
      Hash := Hash2Val(Raw);
      return True;
    else
      return False;
    end if;
  end Hash_File;
  function Hash2Val( Raw: in Raw_Types.Octets_8 )
      return Interfaces.Unsigned_64 is
    B8: Raw_Types.Octets_8;
    U64: Interfaces.Unsigned_64;
  begin
    -- convert to U64 (NB: no need to squeeze etc, as block_len has to be > 8)
    -- for this to remain consistent on both little and big endian machines:
    -- on little endian, octets and bits need to be flipped before conversion
    if Default_Bit_Order = Low_Order_First then
      for BI in 1..8 loop
        B8(BI) := Keccak.Reverse_Table(Natural(Raw(Raw'First+8-BI)));
      end loop;
    else --simply copy as it is
      B8 := Raw(1..8);
    end if;
    -- convert and return
    U64 := Raw_Types.Cast(B8);
    return U64;
  end Hash2Val;

Using the above, one can now test Keccak hashes of files both raw and in the more usual numerical format (e.g. hex as given for instance by the keksum implementation). More importantly for me, Eulora’s client can now check the hash of a received file when it gets the last chunk of it and therefore it can decide whether the whole thing is any good or not! I’m quite happy to inform as well that initial tests are running fine – the data acquisition part of the client successfully requests files and receives them apparently unmolested (even when there are quite a few chunks, so far I tested with several thousands meaning up to 10MB files), writing them neatly to disk exactly as and where intended. Hooray!

The above out of the way, the uglier next step is to get that hideous gui-code to actually *use* those files properly, too!

This is not something entirely new, since vtools for instance has previously adapted my Keccak implementation to a similar use, in order to calculate the hashes for vpatches. However, the approach taken there (by phf) apparently aimed to wrap the Ada implementation for C/CPP use and I don’t want this at all. First, I’d much rather move C/CPP code to Ada if/when possible than the other way around. Second, there is absolutely no good reason in this case to force any C/CPP code in the mix since Ada actually provides all that is needed to interact with files on the disk without any trouble whatsoever.[↩]

Comments (13)

July 1, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for Jul 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:08 pm

Day changed to 2020-07-01
diana_coman:	dorion – your gbw article is quite an interesting read actually, as it covers a lot of ground and as a side effect, all sorts of tangles and weirds-if-coming-at-them-fresh pop all the clearer into view, hm.	[21:08]
jfw:	spyked: looks like feedbot's not recovered from netsplit	[21:11]
jfw:	dorion: coupla broken hrefs in there	[21:14]
diana_coman:	for 1 sec I thought sonofawitch had some netsplit-misadventure too – until I realised it knew better than me that it's July so the log is in a fresh article, lol	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw – btw, that jwrd.net page still says the famous "coming soon…"	[21:20]
jfw:	so it does.	[21:21]
jfw:	dorion: fixpoint.welshcomputning.com ? I don't think you documented putting that in hosts file prior to reading your article!	[21:23]
jfw:	(imho, since there's specific article links already, the toplevel one isn't really adding much)	[21:25]
trinque:	hello diana_coman, sorry, been afk for a bit. I'll send an invoice now, and we can start the 1yr today.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	looking around jfw's blog for a single-point-of-entry clearer on gbw to suggest to dorion as a link on the gbw name itself, I almost got it and then found the last comment.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	trinque no worries.	[21:30]
trinque:	!!invoice diana_coman 0.006 1yr of deedbot service	[21:30]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Eap8	[21:30]
trinque:	!!v 6B4A72AE8878BE7DBA6A118B07384C35983EAABADE4C172BD18913ED3ABF0F62	[21:31]
deedbot:	Invoiced diana_coman 0.006 << 1yr of deedbot service	[21:31]
diana_coman:	!!help	[21:32]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[21:32]
jfw:	how about the spec (also linked by pingback on that preliminary plan article)	[21:34]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-02 21:38:51 (#ossasepia) jfw: ftr, our wallet is built to a spec from last year, vpatches are at gbw-node, gbw-signer, and the interpreter gscm, what's missing is mainly writeups introducing those.	[21:34]
diana_coman:	jfw, yeah, that was where I went next and well, it works in the sense that there's nothing better for the role atm, that's about it.	[21:36]
jfw:	right, it's not an introduction and an introduction is still needed.	[21:38]
diana_coman:	!!v 7A03C8A5312B8C9F24525C8CFC2DABCE69053D945D2BFCED98E49044DAEE41BE	[21:44]
deedbot:	diana_coman paid trinque invoice 1	[21:44]
trinque:	ty!	[21:44]
diana_coman:	trinque – meant to ask, can deedbot announce deeds in here too?	[21:44]
trinque:	can be done; it's easier to announce deeds from everywhere on all channels, but curious what your preference is.	[21:46]
trinque:	right now they're all being announced in #trinque	[21:46]
diana_coman:	trinque – that works fine with me; basically what I want is to know of deedbot's deeds regardless of where they were sent to deedbot	[21:46]
diana_coman:	hm, come to think of it I guess there's the page too, except that's basically check by polling.	[21:48]
jfw:	rss deedfeed?	[21:48]
trinque:	as long as it doesn't have to filter by channel, this is very easy, happy to do so.	[21:48]
trinque:	couple-line change	[21:48]
trinque:	jfw: that isn't so hard either. useful?	[21:49]
diana_coman:	trinque – no filter needed for me; thing is, I obviously can't speak about others and their chans, hence my request was for my chan specifically.	[21:49]
trinque:	we'll start with that and see how it goes	[21:49]
jfw:	trinque: prolly not that useful given it can announce directly without the separate service.	[21:49]
diana_coman:	aha ^.	[21:50]
trinque:	sg	[21:50]
jfw:	diana_coman, dorion: I'm curious now how one ends up in this kind of self-punishment. Is it just my lack of providing a ready-made script at work here? Of all the manual ways this one seems about the most laborious	[22:17]
jfw:	possible, both for the doing and the writing up!	[22:17]
jfw:	(and in this case there even was a readymade script, in the very previous step, but I can see the point of being sure the V really does build itself)	[22:19]
jfw:	(and of having all the source patches oneself)	[22:20]
diana_coman:	jfw – eh, the shortest answer to that is "as a result of all the missed interactions", really.	[22:23]
diana_coman:	and not only from the side of "the one".	[22:24]
jfw:	mhm	[22:24]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027502 – thanks diana_coman.	[22:37]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 21:08:02 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion – your gbw article is quite an interesting read actually, as it covers a lot of ground and as a side effect, all sorts of tangles and weirds-if-coming-at-them-fresh pop all the clearer into view, hm.	[22:37]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027504 – thanks fixed.	[22:38]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 21:14:53 (#ossasepia) jfw: dorion: coupla broken hrefs in there	[22:38]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027540 – hm, I could've said, open http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/v/ in your browser and download the seals and vpatches, but I can't offer that as command. it was a pain to write that, but now it's done.	[22:45]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 22:17:01 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman, dorion: I'm curious now how one ends up in this kind of self-punishment. Is it just my lack of providing a ready-made script at work here? Of all the manual ways this one seems about the most laborious	[22:45]
dorion:	or I could've eschewed the brace expansion and written wget for each item. maybe it'd be easier to read, but the reasoning was it's not too hard to parse if you know what you're reading and easier to execute.	[22:49]
dorion:	jfw do you have a ready example of a better way ?	[22:50]
jfw:	dorion: several, though not meeting your desire for 'just type these 100k characters and it'll work': use external browser and 'scp'; use onboard 'links'; use external 'wget -r' (because yeah, the busybox one doesn't support crawling); paste the urls into a script and run that	[22:52]
jfw:	not to imply that a fully-working recipe is a bad goal, if recipe is what you're going for	[22:53]
jfw:	but – and I know this cuts both ways – can you actually imagine someone typing that all in from the blog page? even if the offscreen overflow gets cleaned up	[22:55]
jfw:	steps 19+ look good tho!	[23:00]
dorion:	jfw thanks. yeah, I was going for more of a recipe and for sure it'd be a big pain to type out.	[23:02]
jfw:	personally I would cp/mv things to the system paths rather than using symlinks into the build dir, as I tend to treat build / press dirs as temporary, but since you have them following the patch names it would work if you remember you're doing it.	[23:03]
jfw:	(steps 11b and 19)	[23:04]
dorion:	that's a good point too.	[23:06]
jfw:	The BINDIR change in footnote 2 is harmless but unnecessary – gales doesn't distinguish a /usr but has the symlink for compatibility.	[23:09]
jfw:	ah and step 16 you do use a copy but to a ? path – I'd just put that in [/usr]/local/bin the same as V	[23:13]
jfw:	I've indeed tended to use ~/bin before so this is probably a needn't-have-been-problem you've picked up from me; basically I'm making efforts here to cut down on unnecessary optionality.	[23:23]
Day changed to 2020-07-02
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-the-power-of-words << The Tar Pit — On the power of words	[15:09]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for Jul 2020	[15:10]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/guitar-practice-log-15-july-1st-2020/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 15, July 1st 2020	[15:10]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-practice-log-8-july-1st-2020-ordinales/ << whaack — Spanish Practice Log 8, July 1st 2020 – Ordinales	[15:13]
feedbot:	http://dorion-mode.com/2020/07/gbw-node-gales-bitcoin-wallet-node-verified-acquisition-build-install-and-run-in-21ish-short-simple-steps/ << Dorion Mode — GBW-NODE : Gales Bitcoin Wallet Node verified acquisition, build, install and run in 21ish short, simple steps.	[15:14]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027559 – yeah, but it's not as much the recipe's fault really, it's more of the underlying mess and lack of sane alternative.	[21:10]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 23:02:51 (#ossasepia) dorion: jfw thanks. yeah, I was going for more of a recipe and for sure it'd be a big pain to type out.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027565 – you know, all those are good but the trouble made plain there is essentially that current trb requires some level of desperation/insanity/passion-in-the-religious-sense to deploy, pretty much.	[21:12]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 23:23:38 (#ossasepia) jfw: I've indeed tended to use ~/bin before so this is probably a needn't-have-been-problem you've picked up from me; basically I'm making efforts here to cut down on unnecessary optionality.	[21:12]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm not sure that's just in the deployment either; e.g. the still unhealed miner/node externality	[21:21]
diana_coman:	jfw – ah, certainly; the deployment is just the surface/first-contact part, sure.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	and a consequence in the end.	[21:23]
jfw:	I suppose the question is whether in the end it demands less insanity and works better than what they call bank accounts these days	[21:26]
diana_coman:	for that matter and to add layers of either sadness of laughter to it all, there isn't even any discernible purpose or intention, only side effects.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	jfw – eh, only different insanity and one that tends to be more familiar for most; but comparing levels of insanity is not all that meaningful, you know?	[21:33]
diana_coman:	(the above re bank accounts)	[21:33]
jfw:	diana_coman: purpose/intention in what?	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jfw – in that requirement of passion.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	ie it's not that anyone set on purpose to make it painful; nevertheless (and predictably once looking at it properly), that's how it ends up.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	anyway, in more practical considerations, there's no reason why it has to remain as insane as that forever and ever or something.	[21:40]
jfw:	certainly.	[21:40]
jfw:	I see what you're saying now about making it painful but don't yet have the vantage point where it's predictable.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	well, that's the top of a whole forest so maybe another time; but look at the simple fact that the moment the whole thing is exposed worse-than-usual, the first reaction is to "fix" … the person exposing it, not the thing.	[21:48]
diana_coman:	this is btw exactly why I was saying that dorion's gbw article is quite an interesting read – exactly because it's not written by the usual too-familiar-with-the-madness-to-find-an-easier-way-around-it.	[21:50]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-01 21:08:02 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion – your gbw article is quite an interesting read actually, as it covers a lot of ground and as a side effect, all sorts of tangles and weirds-if-coming-at-them-fresh pop all the clearer into view, hm.	[21:50]
diana_coman:	hm, that should be clearer perhaps as too familiar with it to go a longer/harder route.	[21:53]
jfw:	on the surface those read as opposites, but I take your meaning as: too familiar with the trails through the forest to bother clearing & paving a road	[21:55]
diana_coman:	too familiar to not find an easier route; apparently I lost the "not" in there, but it's long anyway.	[21:56]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027592 – almost; a bit worse in that it's more like too familiar with dodging poisonous darts at each step to even pay much attention to all the crazy moves (sure, also doing as a result of familiarity the best moves there, most effective etc;)	[22:00]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-02 21:55:37 (#ossasepia) jfw: on the surface those read as opposites, but I take your meaning as: too familiar with the trails through the forest to bother clearing & paving a road	[22:00]
diana_coman:	in the end the difference is simply "this is insane and has to change" vs "this is unfortunate/not pleasant but inevitable"	[22:02]
jfw:	are you saying dorion had that first perspective while I had the second, or what? because I'm not seeing that at all	[22:06]
diana_coman:	jfw – no, I'm saying that dorion's article is more useful to give one that first perspective.	[22:08]
jfw:	ah ok, indeed.	[22:09]
diana_coman:	what perspective each person has is up to them in the end; I don't have any need to highlight other people's perspectives on this now, lol.	[22:11]
jfw:	I'd say I was in between – not "unfortunate but inevitable" but that there's a cost to improving it which I didn't see as a high priority, while the article's perhaps pushing me in that direction.	[22:12]
diana_coman:	I can see it.	[22:13]
diana_coman:	worth perhaps noting also that absent any other ways to commit to one or another piece of work, what gets done or not (and in a more general sense, not specifically about trb now) is always decided simply by perceived cost-of-improvement vs pain-of-current-state, there isn't much else left.	[22:27]
diana_coman:	even decided and then re-decided, as the balance shifts, of course.	[22:27]
jfw:	yep, and that got a chuckle from me.	[22:32]
diana_coman:	heh, glad to hear it did!	[22:34]
Day changed to 2020-07-03
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-journall-of-the-good-mr-archibald-pizdys-as-laid-in-his-own-hand-for-the-year-of-our-king-charles-19th-week-13/ << Trilema — The journall of the good Mr. Archibald Pizdys, as laid in his own hand for the year, of our King Charles, 19th, week 13.	[11:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-journall-of-the-good-mr-archibald-pizdys-as-laid-in-his-own-hand-for-the-year-of-our-king-charles-19th-week-12/ << Trilema — The journall of the good Mr. Archibald Pizdys, as laid in his own hand for the year, of our King Charles, 19th, week 12.	[20:11]
diana_coman:	aww, why so fickle lately, feedbot	[20:36]
Day changed to 2020-07-04
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/07/a-conversation-in-the-foggy-forest/ << Bimbo Club — A conversation in the foggy forest.	[08:30]
diana_coman:	lolz	[17:16]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia DoomS	[17:16]
deedbot:	DoomS voiced for 30 minutes.	[17:16]
diana_coman:	hello DoomS	[17:16]
DoomS:	hello :>	[17:16]
diana_coman:	how did you find your way in here?	[17:17]
diana_coman:	ori zi pe romaneste daca-i problema de engleza	[17:18]
DoomS:	asa, acuma sunt pe zona..	[17:21]
DoomS:	am citit pe forum la Mircea, si am gasit pe acolo o cale prin care sa intru si aici pe canal :)	[17:21]
diana_coman:	de intrat ai intrat da' …ai idee in ce ai intrat? lol	[17:22]
DoomS:	lol	[17:23]
DoomS:	aici intra cine vrea si iese cine poate ? sau de ce intrebi ?	[17:23]
DoomS:	pentru mine e doar un simplu canal de IRC, chiar nu stiu in ce m-am bagat.. :D	[17:24]
diana_coman:	ahaha, neah, nu-i greu de iesit; din experienta zic ca-i eventual mai greu de ramas decat de plecat da' in fine	[17:24]
diana_coman:	numa' eram curioasa ce cauti cum ar veni, aia-i	[17:25]
diana_coman:	si in fine, trolam aici bietii oameni altminteri ca nu citesc toti romana acum;	[17:25]
diana_coman:	DoomS da' in fine, vezi ca-i logat cum zice si-n status e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027612 si altminteri de acolo gasesti ma gandesc restul.	[17:26]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-04 17:16:38 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia DoomS	[17:26]
diana_coman:	DoomS – cand zici "pe forum la Mircea" tu zici adica blogul lui, trilema.com , este?	[17:28]
DoomS:	e vorba de blog diana_coman, da. am gresit eu. trilema.com	[17:29]
diana_coman:	nu-i bai.	[17:31]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-practice-log-9-july-4th-2020/ << whaack — Spanish Practice Log 9, July 4th 2020	[20:42]
diana_coman:	whaack – how's it going with scoping that block explorer?	[21:02]
Day changed to 2020-07-05
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/please-dont-eat-the-daisies/ << Trilema — Please don't eat the daisies	[18:42]
Day changed to 2020-07-06
whaack:	diana_coman: it's going poorly, all I've done are a few passes of jfw's articles on bitcoin transactions and their signing, and a skim of one of his gbw node article. I've been flopping around putting time into new saltmines, side projects, spanish study, and derpage, and haven't found the ability to structure my day to allow for long enough stretches to make good progress	[19:37]
diana_coman:	whaack – so maybe promote one of the side projects to "front project", what's the trouble.	[20:58]
Day changed to 2020-07-07
whaack:	diana_coman: No I don't think that works, because I find the block explorer much more important than anything else I'm doing.	[20:22]
whaack:	diana_coman: I read through jfw's series on gbw node yesterday. Some articles I digested more than others. It seems that gbw node is just a few settings and a small interface away from being a block explorer.	[20:24]
diana_coman:	whaack – so ask jfw where/what doesn't quite make sense, no?	[20:36]
whaack:	diana_coman: yes of course. Mostly I mean that some of the details, such as all the various functions needed to craft bits into the correct encoding, were skimmed.	[20:39]
diana_coman:	so install it, give it a spin, write up the whole thing, the works; I wouldn't be all that surprised if there's in there most of what you need for a block explorer, perhaps only even more than absolutely needed for that as such, but not like there's any loss in getting to know that code properly.	[20:41]
whaack:	jfw: Does the following sound like a feasible/reasonable way to go about making a block explorer. (1) Get a beefy machine (specifics to be calculated, but 2 TB of SSD, 16GB of Ram, 3.0Ghz processor are some ballpark estimates) (2) Install trb and gbw node. (3) Configure gbw to watch all addresses, and give a public interface for the sql db	[20:41]
whaack:	I'm setting my goal for today to build trb and gbw node locally. I'm going to read http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html and dorion's guide here http://dorion-mode.com/2020/07/gbw-node-gales-bitcoin-wallet-node-verified-acquisition-build-install-and-run-in-21ish-short-simple-steps/ first.	[21:00]
diana_coman:	sounds good.	[21:01]
whaack:	while setting, up trb locally I hit an error upon running `make ONLINE=1` . I was curious to see if running the command again required redownloading/compiling everything, so I ran it again, and I hit a new error. Then I was intruiged by hitting a 2nd error, so I ran it again, and got a 3rd error. I've decided to stop before running it a 4th time. Here are the errors I've received:	[22:32]
whaack:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=uZyS	[22:32]
whaack:	I'm giving http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/build-system-overhaul-for-bitcoind/ a read now, seems like I may have hit some problem from LD_LIBRARY_PATH getting set when setting up eulora	[22:36]
whaack:	Looks like the problem may have been that my path variable was wrong, setting my gcc to some gcc 8.x used by GNAT	[22:50]
Day changed to 2020-07-08
whaack:	Now, using jfw's new build system overhaul patch, I ran make ONLINE=1 again, and I sat and watched the spew of logs. I saw a bunch of python errors somewhere in the middle, so I have a hunch that I have a problem for having python 2.6.6 installed instead of python 2.7.	[00:32]
whaack:	^ This was the problem, I had a successful build by switching my python to 2.7	[00:49]
whaack:	jfw: I have bitcoind running, the debug logs say I'm at height 100k or something. I wanted to see if I could watch the address 1Q2TWHE3GMdB6BZKafqwxXtWAWgFt5Jvm3 that allegedly received 10 btc at [block 170] [https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/f4184fc596403b9d638783cf57adfe4c75c605f6356fbc91338530e9831e9e16] I did the following steps which I believed would result in being able to see a balance for	[01:43]
whaack:	that address http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=byob but instead I saw a balance of 0 after scanning above block 170.	[01:43]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-practice-log-10-july-5th-2020/ << whaack — Spanish Practice Log 10, July 5th 2020	[04:14]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-practice-log-12-july-7th-2020/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 12, July 7th 2020	[04:19]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-practice-log-11-july-6th-2020/ << whaack — Spanish Practice Log 11, July 6th 2020	[04:36]
jfw:	I'm alive, just in a bit of a hole owing to various accumulated sins against time. Light's on the horizon though.	[04:57]
jfw:	whaack: much of the code in gbw-node would be directly useful for a block explorer, indeed. I would definitely suggest some schema tweaks though.	[05:01]
jfw:	for example adding a table to track blocks and factoring block_hash and block_height out of tx into that, referenced by integer primary key	[05:04]
jfw:	(32 byte hash -> 8 byte rowid, multiplied by every transaction in bitcoin would save quite some space I expect.)	[05:06]
jfw:	and removing the "input" table (which I believe I mentioned in the schema article)	[05:07]
jfw:	whaack: as is it can't be told to track "all" addresses; there's a list and that list won't fit all possible seen & unseen addresses. If you mean changing the code to remove the 'watched address' checks and index all seen addresses, then yes that's the way to go.	[05:12]
jfw:	Possibly even the way gbw-node itself ought to be – though the full index will have a hefty size cost.	[05:12]
jfw:	incidentally if TRB had used SQL this tradeoff would literally be a one-liner CREATE INDEX.	[05:13]
jfw:	2T/16G wouuld be plenty beefy enough, indeed 1T/4G probably fine	[05:16]
jfw:	the extra ram can always be thrown at database cache though so won't hurt.	[05:17]
jfw:	re make errors, haven't looked specifically but without my patch, repeating 'make' can indeed produce different errors because it gives 'make' no way to see that an openssl/bdb/boost build failed and it just proceeds.	[05:20]
jfw:	python errors in trb build? that's a bit surprising, my guess would be Boost as it has some python binding thing, "shouldn't" be necessary for trb tho	[05:22]
jfw:	however 2.7 is a hard requirement for gbw-node as I haven't found a non-glacial alternative to memoryviews given the volume of deserialization it has to do.	[05:24]
jfw:	whaack: re block 170, I bet your problem is that the site you got the address from is revising history to imply that "1-addresses" were used back then. They weren't; the standard script was pay-to-pubkey, no hash. I dunno how it was presented in the early UI but at least would have been a longer string.	[05:27]
jfw:	if you look at the 'disassembly' of the scriptPubKey on such a site, and compare to a more sample, you'll see the difference.	[05:29]
jfw:	*more recent sample	[05:29]
jfw:	"more recent" as in past the first couple 10k, iirc.	[05:30]
jfw:	whaack: I un-lazied and clicked your link, this is indeed the situation.	[05:32]
jfw:	gbw-node indexes only actual "1-addresses", i.e. scripts matching the standard p2pkh form. For a block explorer, a middle ground between that and writing special cases for all sorts of weird species of script would be indexing the script itself as a blob.	[05:35]
jfw:	out_script_address is the filtering/extraction function there.	[05:38]
whaack:	jfw: Addressing a few things: Yes I meant changing the code to remove watched addresses and index all seen addresses.	[05:39]
whaack:	jfw: Indeed, I believe the problem was with building Boost.	[05:40]
jfw:	whaack: cool. Off to sleep now but I should be back tomorrow.	[05:41]
whaack:	jfw: gn	[05:42]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027648 – o.O what gnat did you ever install there to have such monstrosity as gcc 8.* ?	[09:54]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-07 22:50:20 (#ossasepia) whaack: Looks like the problem may have been that my path variable was wrong, setting my gcc to some gcc 8.x used by GNAT	[09:54]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027650 – I guess it's good to know it requires 2.7	[09:55]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 00:49:46 (#ossasepia) whaack: ^ This was the problem, I had a successful build by switching my python to 2.7	[09:55]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027656 – glad to hear you're alive! wondering if it's enough of a hole to keep you from repeating it in the future, too.	[09:55]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 04:57:33 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'm alive, just in a bit of a hole owing to various accumulated sins against time. Light's on the horizon though.	[09:55]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027663 – heh.	[09:56]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 05:13:57 (#ossasepia) jfw: incidentally if TRB had used SQL this tradeoff would literally be a one-liner CREATE INDEX.	[09:56]
whaack:	jfw: Interesting, I did not know that once-upon-a-time outputs provided a script w/ a pub key that was not hashed. http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027674 seems like a good plan.	[15:29]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 05:35:48 (#ossasepia) jfw: gbw-node indexes only actual "1-addresses", i.e. scripts matching the standard p2pkh form. For a block explorer, a middle ground between that and writing special cases for all sorts of weird species of script would be indexing the script itself as a blob.	[15:29]
whaack:	diana_coman: gnat –version gives "GNAT Community 2019 (20190517-83)" on the first line	[15:30]
diana_coman:	whaack – ah, that explains it, yeah; but I would think you'd run into all sorts of other trouble trying to compile that client on that version of gcc, really; not like I don't have the 2016 gnat mirrored on my site and all that, even if you don't want to go through the more intricate steps of building one of ave1's versions, huh.	[15:32]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/08/eucrypt-addition-keccak-file-hashing/ << Ossa Sepia — EuCrypt addition: Keccak File Hashing	[15:38]
whaack:	diana_coman: I am not quite sure why I wound up with that monster gnat, I believe it was from doing the eulora install hastily. In any case I made sure to compile bitcoind with gcc 4.4.7	[15:48]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/building-trb-on-centos-69-notes-on-a-few-gotchas/ << whaack — Building TRB on CentOS 6.9, Notes on a Few Gotchas	[16:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-worlds-great-though-unfortunately-populated-sau-mula-n-beige/ << Trilema — The world's great though unfortunately populated, sau mula-n beige	[20:17]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/how-to-test-gbw-node-by-viewing-the-first-ever-transaction-containing-a-p2pkh-address/ << whaack — How To Test gbw-node By Viewing The First Ever Transaction Containing a p2pkh Address	[20:48]
diana_coman:	seems like whaack is having fun with jfw's gbw-node, not bad	[21:01]
jfw:	:)	[21:46]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027656 – might even be. "woah, time management & communication skills aren't just for YH or TMSR but the outside world too?" kinda thing	[21:55]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 04:57:33 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'm alive, just in a bit of a hole owing to various accumulated sins against time. Light's on the horizon though.	[21:55]
jfw:	ah wrong quote – http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027684	[21:55]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-08 09:55:52 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027656 – glad to hear you're alive! wondering if it's enough of a hole to keep you from repeating it in the future, too.	[21:55]
jfw:	on the bright side, I got 4200 words out in two days or thereabouts.	[21:57]
diana_coman:	jfw – was that sudden writing-productivity necessity induced? (little time, must-deliver thing)	[21:58]
jfw:	yeah	[22:06]
jfw:	whaack: what V are you using these days?	[22:10]
diana_coman:	jfw – aha; basically there's too little real pressure here to deliver proper change, lol.	[22:13]
jfw:	money's the best alternative I know of to actual whips in that regard	[22:16]
whaack:	jfw: I'm using v.pl version 99991	[22:16]
jfw:	"grades" stopped doing it for me around age 12	[22:17]
jfw:	whaack: thought so. you might notice it's quite slow on pressing or anything else on the trb tree; I've since patched it for that	[22:18]
diana_coman:	jfw – supposedly it was internal, hence wanting to be here in the first place; not "grades", certainly not; and for that matter, if a 30 yo was still after grades as motivation, ugh.	[22:19]
whaack:	jfw: It wasn't instant, but also not very slow on my machine. Regardless I'll take a look at your article about fixing up v.pl	[22:21]
jfw:	diana_coman: do you mean the "real pressure around here" as internal?	[22:23]
diana_coman:	jfw – I mean that via an irc chan I can provide mainly feedback, not whips! and so it's unsurprising that it works only to the extent that there is internal motivation for that change; I guess previously, the missing-the-tmsr-boat provided additional whip but once that gone, it shows if there was anything else or to what extent.	[22:30]
jfw:	I see I've gone silent here. I won't say I've had much internal motivation to write for example, otherwise sure, I'd have been doing it more already. As far as change as a whole, not sure what to make of it yet.	[22:53]
diana_coman:	eh, internal motivation is more general than that sort of "to write" or "to do X", it's basically motivation to improve; the idiocy of compartmentalizing is just as much idiocy when/if applied to this as to anything else; other than that, "choice" comes into it only when indeed, there are so many opportunities identified and taken that there's just no time for another one – more of a mythical	[23:01]
diana_coman:	situation than ever a real one.	[23:01]
jfw:	I think I see.	[23:05]
Day changed to 2020-07-09
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/spanish-study-log-13-july-8th-2020/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 13, July 8th 2020	[05:10]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/a-bitcoin-block-explorer-the-why-the-how/ << whaack — A Bitcoin Block Explorer – The Why & The How	[18:44]
Day changed to 2020-07-10
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/07/triles-an-tribinlations/ << Bimbo Club — Triles an' Tribinlations	[06:54]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/07/bimbo-at-the-gates/ << Bimbo Club — Bimbo at the gates.	[10:35]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/what-i-said-was/ << Trilema — What I said was…	[16:21]
Day changed to 2020-07-11
whaack:	jfw: do you have a way to display the hash of a txn nicely inside of your sql interpreter?	[19:09]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia danuker	[20:35]
deedbot:	danuker voiced for 30 minutes.	[20:35]
diana_coman:	hello danuker	[20:35]
jfw:	whaack: not sure what you mean by interpreter but possibly ".mode quote" in ~/.sqliterc ?	[20:41]
jfw:	whaack: then there's still the issue that the satoshi code reverses byte order for no apparent reason; /package/gbw-node/library/swaphex.py can be used for that conversion	[20:43]
jfw:	whaack: the sqliterc part I mentioned here but I plan to put it in the README too.	[20:46]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia danuker	[21:07]
deedbot:	danuker voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:07]
diana_coman:	fwj jwf and all possible combinations – when do you plan to add tab-completion to yrc?	[21:08]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'd have to say it's not among my priorities at this time, or JWRD's as far as I can see (dorion, do you agree?), and likely won't be for a few months. I'm sorry if that's not adequate, and if that means you won't use it, I'll understand.	[21:16]
jfw:	if it and the other editing features were a straightforward change I'd do it, but they're not.	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw – the sooner known the better; fine.	[21:18]
jfw:	right, and I should have said this earlier; optimism strikes again.	[21:19]
jfw:	A TRB patch downloader of one form or another is on for this week though.	[21:21]
dorion:	jfw I agree yrc isn't a high priority atm.	[22:11]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/survivor-legacy-or-vidya-games-are-dead/ << Trilema — Survivor Legacy, or vidya games are dead	[22:17]
jfw:	dorion: ack.	[22:21]
whaack:	jfw: by interpreter I meant the text interface that allows you to query the db when you run "sqlite3 ~/.gbw/db" . What you linked to looks like what I need. Although apparently sqlite v 3.7.17 doesnt have quote mode..	[22:53]
Day changed to 2020-07-12
jfw:	whaack: oh I see; I was going to suggest ".mode insert" instead but on testing the centos6 version I find it produces nonsense in some cases e.g. select X'80'; => INSERT INTO table VALUES(X'ffffff80'); What a pain!	[04:44]
jfw:	whaack: found the fix in http://archive.is/dDtit which looks to have quietly slipped into 3.7.12. Previously my documented minimum requirement was 3.7.0, which I now see the centos6 rpm doesn't meet. Expect transactional throughput to very much suck due to lack of WAL journal mode (or sacrifice crash consistency).	[05:52]
jfw:	ah but you said 3.7.17, d'oh. Should be good on those counts then, so go with ".mode insert".	[06:13]
diana_coman:	<danuker> salutari! as vrea sa va multumesc pentru datele de labac: http://ossasepia.com/bac-data/ – da' cu placere! In general sunt online pe aici pe la 7UTC, cred ca-i 10 ora ro.	[10:04]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia danuker	[10:05]
deedbot:	danuker voiced for 30 minutes.	[10:05]
danuker:	e 11 :)	[10:05]
diana_coman:	atunci 11	[10:05]
diana_coman:	la ce-au folosit datele?	[10:05]
danuker:	am facut un top al liceelor mai recent; vreau sa fac o harta colorata	[10:06]
danuker:	analiza pe site-ul tau e doar din 2011	[10:06]
diana_coman:	foarte frumos; ai un sit ori lucrezi cu careva?	[10:06]
danuker:	am site, https://danuker.go.ro/	[10:07]
diana_coman:	eh, pai are ceva istoric, da	[10:07]
danuker:	dar nu e pus inca	[10:07]
danuker:	de vreme ce nu l-am nici terminat	[10:07]
danuker:	am aflat de ce nu folosesti HTTPS xD	[10:07]
diana_coman:	ha, si crypto, ce ai nimerit	[10:07]
danuker:	adica v-am nimerit pe voi?	[10:07]
danuker:	am cautat scraper de bac pe github	[10:08]
diana_coman:	intre timp cred ca or mai fi schimbat formatul ala de vreo 100 de ori	[10:08]
danuker:	eh; firma corupta	[10:09]
diana_coman:	danuker – da' hai sa trecem totusi pe iengleza ca mai citesc si altii bietii	[10:09]
danuker:	sure	[10:09]
danuker:	I found out what you do in #therealbitcoin	[10:09]
diana_coman:	ahahah	[10:09]
danuker:	after re-reading "reflections on trusting trust" I realized I can not find something not compiled with a C compiler	[10:10]
diana_coman:	danuker – here, have a read of some history there and the comments from those in #therealbitcoin	[10:10]
danuker:	thanks; I am paralyzed overflowing with information	[10:11]
diana_coman:	there's a deep rabbit… burrow, what hole, you found	[10:11]
diana_coman:	yeah, I can imagine; kind of trying to keep it to a minimum as it is	[10:11]
diana_coman:	!!key danuker	[10:11]
deedbot:	Not registered.	[10:11]
danuker:	yeh; I think they deleted my account for not logging in in ages	[10:12]
diana_coman:	danuker – no, deedbot is nothing to do with chanserv/nickserv and the like	[10:12]
diana_coman:	there's more to read (a lot!) right there!	[10:12]
danuker:	oh, haha	[10:12]
diana_coman:	hand around and you'll get to it though, there's time now, too much time even	[10:13]
diana_coman:	danuker – do you mind saying how old are you?	[10:13]
diana_coman:	hang around, I meant	[10:13]
danuker:	I'm 28; why?	[10:13]
diana_coman:	danuker – mainly to get some idea as to what makes most sense to you	[10:14]
diana_coman:	and otherwise irc-able made me curious; apparently younger people never-heard-of-irc-omg	[10:15]
danuker:	yeh :( the facebook and messenger and twatter drones	[10:15]
diana_coman:	danuker – at any rate, trust and its issues makes for quite a solid root of things around here, so you'll probably find a lot of interesting things	[10:17]
diana_coman:	I think messenger and twatter are so last season already, it must be discord nao!	[10:17]
diana_coman:	and telegram or whatwasit	[10:17]
danuker:	well, you got one trustpoint from me for that grade list; and one for NOT using HTTPS?	[10:18]
diana_coman:	danuker – did you stumble upon the web of trust (WoT) yet?	[10:18]
danuker:	yes, but I did not learn how to use it yet	[10:19]
danuker:	i'll just keep the trust in my mind	[10:19]
diana_coman:	well, for starters you need an identity to at least be part of it; that atm means a RSA keypair & registering it with deedbot, hence my earlier !!key	[10:19]
diana_coman:	!!help	[10:19]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[10:19]
diana_coman:	as for the WoT, this is the canonical reference.	[10:20]
danuker:	I have to finish my map first; then I'll help you remove crud from BTC; though my C is very rusty	[10:20]
danuker:	haha, the official approved canonical WoT, eh?	[10:20]
diana_coman:	ahaha, no	[10:21]
diana_coman:	danuker – you'll trip over a LOT of things if you just take words to mean exactly what you found them to mean so far, you know?	[10:21]
diana_coman:	canonical reference for one thing has nothing to do with "approved wot" , lolz	[10:21]
danuker:	oh, I thought it was keys on that page	[10:22]
diana_coman:	it's the main source explaining what the thing is	[10:22]
danuker:	but it's teh technical manual	[10:22]
diana_coman:	well, reference, d'oh	[10:22]
danuker:	right	[10:22]
diana_coman:	not even that, lol!	[10:22]
diana_coman:	although thinking of trilema.com as a compendium of technical manuals makes me chuckle :))	[10:23]
diana_coman:	danuker – if you want the keys and to explore the wot, you want wot.deedbot.org	[10:24]
diana_coman:	but note that WoT as a concept is one thing, while one particular implementation of it is another	[10:24]
danuker:	thank you; I hope I can find the reference again, I am in over my head	[10:25]
danuker:	I have to put all the links in one place	[10:26]
diana_coman:	btw re cleaning btc code and the like – for one thing it's quite a tall order to start directly with it (and yes, trust has to do with this too!), for another, there's more than what #therealbitcoin pretends there is.	[10:26]
danuker:	there are other projects?	[10:26]
diana_coman:	danuker – this chan is logged, you can always find all of it later, see e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027771	[10:26]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-12 10:10:49 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: danuker – here, have a read of some history there and the comments from those in #therealbitcoin	[10:26]
diana_coman:	danuker – well, for starters, see jfw's , e.g. http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/build-system-overhaul-for-bitcoind/	[10:28]
diana_coman:	more links!	[10:28]
diana_coman:	danuker – what do you do other than highschool maps, if you don't mind saying?	[10:28]
danuker:	I was a web developer; but in the past few years I was not employed	[10:30]
danuker:	I worked on a project to do algorithmic trading	[10:30]
diana_coman:	heh, I was just typing "riding btc, eh?"	[10:30]
danuker:	on my own	[10:30]
danuker:	well, I hodled yes, and am still evaluating the system	[10:31]
danuker:	I am not positive it would make more money than lose yet :D	[10:31]
danuker:	my daily routine involves lots of youtube :(	[10:32]
diana_coman:	well, projects are around aplenty; fwiw, if you haven't found it yet, I'm cto for minigame and eulora (the game) has a lot of ~all sorts, just waiting for some intelligent people, really	[10:32]
danuker:	wow, I haven't seen it, but looks nice	[10:33]
danuker:	the game I mean	[10:33]
diana_coman:	so you have then the advantage that it's very, very easy to get all of a sudden way more productive – just ditch the stupid videos and read + write, it's way better for your mind	[10:33]
diana_coman:	danuker – if you manage to register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and then you can simply !!up #ossasepia yourself so you can talk whenever you want to	[10:34]
diana_coman:	right on cue, deedbot, pfft	[10:35]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia danuker	[10:35]
deedbot:	danuker voiced for 30 minutes.	[10:35]
danuker:	=D will do, thanks!	[10:35]
diana_coman:	no problem; and just ask when/if you're stuck with anything, this is meant even as a learning place to start with.	[10:35]
danuker:	does Ossa Sepia mean something?	[10:36]
diana_coman:	(that being said, it's usually around 7pm UTC that I get around to answer but others might be around anyway)	[10:36]
diana_coman:	well, ossasepia does; ossa sepia also; lol, see from my About page	[10:36]
diana_coman:	and perhaps younghands.club too (just in case you were running out of links already!)	[10:37]
danuker:	xD thanks for the chat, data, and community	[10:38]
diana_coman:	no problem; enjoy!	[10:38]
danuker:	I'm sure I clicked on that link also at some point today	[10:38]
danuker:	is ASCII-armored a joke name for plaintext, or an encryption method?	[10:40]
diana_coman:	lol, neither	[10:42]
diana_coman:	in a nutshell, it's binary to text	[10:42]
diana_coman:	!!key danuker	[11:53]
deedbot:	http://wot.deedbot.org/2888CDD3B497BA2C31B9CADF11E079C6CB0BE73B.asc	[11:53]
diana_coman:	oh hey, cool; well done, danuker!	[11:54]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia danuker	[11:54]
deedbot:	danuker voiced for 30 minutes.	[11:54]
diana_coman:	I'll get around sometime today to rate you.	[11:54]
danuker:	No hurry; I don't have much to say, nor do I expect any trust. For all you know, I could be a covert agent.	[12:18]
diana_coman:	lol, a covert agent of…. what exactly?	[12:54]
diana_coman:	the "subversion with words" shtick anyways does exactly 0	[12:55]
diana_coman:	!!v FA312C3C3E9FD093AB2CCDF9B3A164797E50EEF8221D651CB7E41FE101966602	[14:34]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated danuker 1 << found his way around following the bac-data track; writes at danuker.go.ro	[14:34]
diana_coman:	danuker – there you go.	[14:34]
danuker:	why, thank you ^_^	[15:28]
danuker:	by the way, I find it perplexing that many parents in Romania use the entrance exam averages to judge high schools, instead of the "exit exam" (bac). You should not judge a school by demand, but by performance!	[15:30]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/12/making-short-work-of-a-squirrels-winter-stores/ << Ossa Sepia — Making Short Work of a Squirrel's Winter Stores	[17:39]
diana_coman:	danuker – heh, no idea why that might be? (perplexing is usually a good sign there's more to the thing than you notice yet)	[17:45]
danuker:	diana_coman, you are right, I must state in my article that what goes in matters also; and that I do not keep track of that	[18:18]
danuker:	I changed to a local IRC client and I had to re-up myself; does that only happen when changing network?	[18:19]
danuker:	also, I am worried about polluting the channel; I don't know what this channel likes	[18:21]
whaack:	hey danuker, i had a debate with an irl friend the other day about using / not using https, thought you may have been him. there's no list of likes, but good questions are well received	[18:33]
whaack:	cruciform: what ever happened to you? you seemed to join at a moment I was inactive here, so never got to say hi	[18:34]
diana_coman:	danuker – there's even more to that evaluating-based-on-what-goes-in that simply "well, obviously can't make silk purse out of sow's ear"; a whole cultural trip just in there, if you truly want to make it.	[18:43]
diana_coman:	re deedbot – you'll have to re-up whenever you reconnect, basically; think of it: how can deedbot know it's still "you" if you reconnect?	[18:43]
danuker:	whaack, I am not that friend of yours, sorry	[18:44]
danuker:	my position on HTTPS right now is to make it optional	[18:45]
danuker:	and I will configure my website soon	[18:45]
whaack:	danuker: I learned when I saw the romanian	[18:45]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027867 – eh, for starters, don't worry – worry never helped anyone, ever; for follow up – don't worry about likes and in general about what the "outcome", focus instead of why and how as they are more important anyway; to follow up even further – basically what I'll bash on sight is	[18:49]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-12 18:21:00 (#ossasepia) danuker: also, I am worried about polluting the channel; I don't know what this channel likes	[18:49]
diana_coman:	militant ignorance and stubborn idiocy, that's about it.	[18:49]
whaack:	jfw: ack re .mode insert, ty	[20:13]
diana_coman:	jfw, btw here's your previous question about why and how "curiosity" seems to come and go in fact answered plainly recently.	[21:44]
sonofawitch:	2020-02-15 15:38:49 (#ossasepia) jfw: I mean that I'm not too aware of when or why that kind of motivation comes or goes, or how to make it more useful for me	[21:44]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-02 22:27:02 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: worth perhaps noting also that absent any other ways to commit to one or another piece of work, what gets done or not (and in a more general sense, not specifically about trb now) is always decided simply by perceived cost-of-improvement vs pain-of-current-state, there isn't much else left.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	not as much about curiosity, after all.	[21:44]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/minigame-smg-statement-on-q2-2020/ << Trilema — MiniGame (S.MG) Statement on Q2 2020	[22:36]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/12/eulora-logs-for-Jul-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for Jul 2020	[22:39]
danuker:	motivation just magically appears after you start work – https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/	[22:41]
diana_coman:	eh, danuker, that is true but hard to get across the ocean, you know?	[22:43]
danuker:	you mean the day-in-day-out, eh?	[22:44]
diana_coman:	no, I mean that your understanding of it comes rooted in a certain environment that is very different from theirs	[22:44]
diana_coman:	and as such, it makes way easier/more sense for you	[22:45]
diana_coman:	it is true – what works each and every time and without fail is indeed discipline	[22:45]
diana_coman:	trouble is that being disciplined is a habit itself	[22:45]
danuker:	I have no way of knowing what they are going through, that is right	[22:47]
diana_coman:	and one that is moreover supported or quite the opposite by the environment, too	[22:47]
danuker:	all I can say is good luck, then!	[22:48]
danuker:	I'm out for today	[22:48]
danuker:	laters	[22:48]
Day changed to 2020-07-13
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/sorting-out-big-and-little-endian/ << whaack — Representing Data – Notes on Big And Little Endian Encodings	[04:24]
diana_coman:	danuker – maybe set up a bouncer or set it all on a vps somewhere and just let it connected instead of all the join/parts.	[21:00]
jfw:	waves, reads log	[21:04]
danuker:	well, I put my laptop to sleep when I was not home, but I'll just leave it on	[21:13]
diana_coman:	danuker – whichever solution works for you, really.	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw – the log is almost-one-year-long so it might soon wave back!	[21:14]
jfw:	diana_coman: hey, sure enough!	[21:23]
Day changed to 2020-07-14
feedbot:	http://dorion-mode.com/2020/07/in-defense-of-honoring-rutland-raider-power/ << Dorion Mode — In defense of honoring Rutland Raider Power.	[01:48]
jfw:	happy birthday #o !	[20:14]
jfw:	I'll be on the road & occupied until later tonight.	[20:15]
whaack:	jfw: enjoy! working the past few days with gbw-node has been a pleasure	[20:17]
jfw:	whaack: nice, glad to hear it	[20:18]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027906 – why, thank you, jfw.	[21:07]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-14 20:14:40 (#ossasepia) jfw: happy birthday #o !	[21:07]
Day changed to 2020-07-15
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/notes-on-how-to-speed-up-the-trb-resync-process-after-data-corruption/ << whaack — Notes on how to speed up the trb resync process after data corruption	[00:08]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/rosalbas-awakening/ << Trilema — Rosalba's awakening	[16:09]
whaack:	I would like some input as to what functions are necessary for a block explorer. There's really no end to all the features and different types of queries one can write and provide as an interface. So far I have prototypes for: utxos <address> , balance <address> , view-block <block-height> view-txn-by-hash <txn-hash> view-txn-by-pos <block height> <txn index> view-ancestors <block height> <txn	[20:31]
whaack:	index> view-descendents <block height> <txn index>	[20:31]
diana_coman:	whaack – the best way with sort of problem is to start with absolute minimum, have people use it and then ask+listen	[20:31]
diana_coman:	nobody can tell you in advance "what's the best thing to design" but it will become clear as people use it, as simple as that.	[20:32]
diana_coman:	with this* sort of problem	[20:32]
whaack:	alright, i'll put one more function for viewing the rax hex of a block, start cleaning up the code, vpatch it, and then begin work on making a small web interface into the program	[20:33]
diana_coman:	sounds like a plan; for sure best to get out a working minimal prototype and iterate with practical use than to spend whatever amount of time trying to get it perfect blindly like that.	[20:34]
whaack:	sure. my guess is that the next big TODO item will be viewing txns in the memory pool since from my personal experience buying/selling bitcoins you want to see a valid txn has at least been broadcasted during the moment of a sale	[20:35]
diana_coman:	so good, you just announced it, people can say something if they care and otherwise you have therefore already "what next" , all good.	[20:36]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-making-of-a-cuckold/ << Trilema — The making of a cuckold	[20:36]
Day changed to 2020-07-16
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/16/client-paste-says-yes-it-can/ << Ossa Sepia — Client-Paste Says Yes, It Can	[19:14]
Day changed to 2020-07-17
jfw:	for the problem of the manual drudgery presently involved in getting started as well as infecting new systems with jfw-bitcoin, or jfw-wares more generally, I'm thinking to use the perfectly good sync script I already have; you'll simply get all my patches then take your pick of what to press. I was trying to prematurely optimize by thinking it needed an option to filter for a specific project.	[05:42]
jfw:	that can be the low-hanging fruit for anyone who wants to improve their client; a higher fruit on the same branch would be filtering for just the antecedents of a given patch, e.g. based on the manifest as rendered by a btcbase style patch browser.	[05:49]
jfw:	I think I'll be so bold as to house that script in the v.pl tree, remove the recursive-wget based sync that doesn't work on busybox, release a new V starter including my pubkeys, and that'll be that.	[05:59]
jfw:	It'd be great to have a federated pool of such "full nodes" based on each operator's choice of signers; the present scheme doesn't quite get there as it does hash-only verification, leaving sig checking to the V presser. A trial press with comparison of flow to output manifest might make a good condition for automated patch import there.	[06:09]
jfw:	although the priority on that optimization might go up if a V-enlightented Gales Linux starts pulling in gccs and kernels and such.	[06:17]
jfw:	(the filtering by project, that is.)	[06:17]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027925 – jfw, what would the current steps be if someone starts from 0 ie they go "I'll get a dedicated server for this, what is it going to take to have it running gales+jfw-bitcoin" ?	[20:36]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-17 05:42:41 (#ossasepia) jfw: for the problem of the manual drudgery presently involved in getting started as well as infecting new systems with jfw-bitcoin, or jfw-wares more generally, I'm thinking to use the perfectly good sync script I already have; you'll simply get all my patches then take your pick of what to press. I was trying to prematurely optimize by thinking it needed an option to filter for a specific project.	[20:36]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027928 – as with all great things lately, it's more likely firmly in the camp of "if you make it, you'll have it"; but this aside for a moment, to the extent that you talk strictly of infrastructure what's the problem and otherwise if you talk of operators, well, the lack there is not going to be solved by better scripts or software in	[20:39]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-17 06:09:29 (#ossasepia) jfw: It'd be great to have a federated pool of such "full nodes" based on each operator's choice of signers; the present scheme doesn't quite get there as it does hash-only verification, leaving sig checking to the V presser. A trial press with comparison of flow to output manifest might make a good condition for automated patch import there.	[20:39]
diana_coman:	general.	[20:39]
diana_coman:	that being said and to the extent that I follow what you are saying there, the only rather puzzling part for me is why "v-starter" is it's in fact a "trb-starter" you seem to be aiming for?	[20:43]
diana_coman:	danuker – how's it going with the reading around? do you need anything, do you have any questions?	[20:45]
diana_coman:	danuker – btw, I looked through your blog, wanted to comment and …couldn't, of course, because I'm not going to go through that disqus madness in order to …talk to you, wtf.	[20:46]
diana_coman:	fwiw, this tarpit of "will do static blog and then end up with disqus/similar for comments because there's no other solution" is the usual path indeed but for being usual it's still not going anywhere useful.	[20:48]
danuker:	diana_coman: I have looked through your blog, I am not really sure what to do	[20:52]
diana_coman:	danuker – how do you mean, what to do about what?	[20:52]
diana_coman:	in general like that… whatever you do won't be lost time, as long as you do it properly, what.	[20:53]
danuker:	diana_coman: I thought about rewriting the Bitcoin client, then I was thinking what language? and now I am reviewing programming languages	[20:53]
diana_coman:	danuker – oh dear, that's the …road to hell, lol	[20:54]
diana_coman:	danuker – did you notice this article for instance: http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/29/a-basic-requirement-for-the-literate-introducing-of-new-tools/ ?	[20:55]
danuker:	diana_coman: oh, so many long paragraphs, I did not notice it	[20:56]
danuker:	diana_coman: in the mean time I worked on my map; I put it on hold while I was looking for a KMZ reader (for the "open" data from the government)	[20:56]
danuker:	diana_coman: I need a project management tool	[20:57]
danuker:	how do you guys organize your goals?	[20:57]
diana_coman:	I get it that you want to contribute and you want to help and you want all the good and proper things indeed; but please, understand that this approach of "I'll just re-write this huge thing by myself and in my corner and then I'll come out with it and won't it be a huge help to everyone" is the very, very trodden path on which most youngsters end up …lost; and old, sure.	[20:58]
diana_coman:	nothing more though.	[20:58]
diana_coman:	danuker – what did those long paragraphs hide /what is it you didn't notice as I don't quite follow that sentence?	[20:59]
danuker:	diana_coman: I mean, I don't want to read it right now, since it will take time	[21:00]
diana_coman:	ah, you don't have to read it right now, no, lolz; I was curious whether you found it already, mainly because it might help you to digest it before you invest whatever hours/months into "developing this shiny new thing" ; this approach btw already has a name around here, it's called "man-aloning" ; it has a history too and many, many stories – they all end up badly for the main character!	[21:03]
diana_coman:	danuker – re "project management tool" dunno what you have in mind exactly; I suppose I use…. V; other than that, some awk scripts for time management, though it's more like periodic reviews now as hm, I'm rather …settled, let's say.	[21:04]
diana_coman:	you will likely notice around here a preference for …fewer, smaller and more useful tools really, rather than "more tools, yeee"	[21:05]
diana_coman:	danuker – if you really wonder "where to start from", I'd say start by looking at V and then probably some of jfw's stuff if you are totally focused on bitcoin-part	[21:06]
diana_coman:	he's around to ask for help too if you get stuck, he has quite a few things published, it's way, way better to start by trying to figure out through use and reading what IS there and what people are doing, than by re-writing anything, really	[21:07]
danuker:	diana_coman: I will try to avoid too much "man-aloning"; thanks for the heads-up	[21:08]
diana_coman:	you're welcome; and speak up/ask whenever stuck/in doubt/in need of bouncing some ideas off someone; people around here quite know what they are talking about.	[21:09]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027931 – that'd be a fairly lengthy list that I don't have available atm; starting from 0 you'd need to establish that your hardware is supported and create or ask nicely for a kernel config	[21:10]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-17 20:36:46 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027925 – jfw, what would the current steps be if someone starts from 0 ie they go "I'll get a dedicated server for this, what is it going to take to have it running gales+jfw-bitcoin" ?	[21:10]
diana_coman:	jfw – do you have a list of supported hardware ie somewhere for the operator to go and look? or at least one relatively common/easily available config that one can find with hosters?	[21:12]
jfw:	what do you mean by "with hosters"?	[21:14]
jfw:	but no I haven't presently published kernel configurations.	[21:14]
jfw:	they are made available to customers with purchase of hardware, for which we presently have the Thinkpad x200 option and are working on an APU one.	[21:15]
diana_coman:	jfw – by configuration I meant hardware, not the kernel config as such; now though I get the impression that this is getting basically split between some conflicting aims there and possibly some not-yet-fully-clear strategy otherwise, hm.	[21:17]
danuker:	jfw: I would not trust a pre-installed system	[21:18]
jfw:	hi danuker. Indeed my Gales Linux distribution is rather unique in how little trust it demands; you can bootstrap it fully from source from a variety of unix-like starting systems.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	danuker – he means from his and dorion's business jwrd; it's not as such "pre-installed", no; maybe read eg about what jwrd does	[21:19]
danuker:	hi jfw :) sorry for butting in without knowing what you're talking about	[21:20]
diana_coman:	and about gales itself I guess, though I thought you had already got to that, lol.	[21:20]
jfw:	danuker: no worries and as diana_coman says feel free to ask things.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw – to roll this back and get somewhere before I need to go as it's not that long today: is it correct to say that you are aiming there for a trb-starter rather than a v-starter as such? (sure, it includes V, of course)	[21:22]
jfw:	diana_coman: a common config with plenty of hosters that's known to work is of course VPS, lol	[21:22]
diana_coman:	jfw lol	[21:22]
diana_coman:	are you now suggesting to run trb on a vps?	[21:23]
jfw:	no, but hey, if you want "known to work" it's there	[21:23]
diana_coman:	eh; forget about that part, it's clearly too big a jump and it doesn't yet make sense to you, let it be.	[21:24]
jfw:	alright. I see what I'm going for as a V starter in the sense of V as a system including the software using it and a means of obtaining that, of which TRB is one of the more patch-heavy examples.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	the issue there is that trb is also the …least-mandatory part otherwise, lol	[21:26]
diana_coman:	ie I would get it if it were gales the patch-heavy example, seeing how it is an OS, but…why trb, I have no idea.	[21:27]
diana_coman:	this being said, you can of course package and name anything anyway you like, what's there to stop you.	[21:27]
jfw:	because "given a working OS, how to get TRB / gbw ?" was a pain point as illustrated by http://dorion-mode.com/2020/07/gbw-node-gales-bitcoin-wallet-node-verified-acquisition-build-install-and-run-in-21ish-short-simple-steps/	[21:31]
jfw:	Gales, while not in V form as we've discussed, already had an automated download process for all the necessary sources.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	jfw – so exactly being "how to get trb/gbw" , it is therefore a …trb/gbw starter, that's all.	[21:33]
jfw:	diana_coman: if I then publish more things it becomes applicable to, does it then change to a trb+gbw+other_things starter, without my even touching it?	[21:34]
diana_coman:	in other words: there isn't anything particularly wrong that I can see with the idea of "will package existing script and make the whole a best fit for the task at hand", that's fine; it just isn't more than that though and if there is indeed a longer term strategy of which this is a part it's not clear, nor does it seem to fit such thing, that's about it all.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jfw – so it's basically jfwsoftware-starter, pretty much.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	nothing wrong with that.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	I have to go, can pick it up back tomorrow if there's more.	[21:36]
jfw:	alright see ya.	[21:36]
jfw:	+ thanks for the questions.	[21:37]
danuker:	jfw: do you know about the Glacier protocol?	[21:52]
jfw:	danuker: haven't heard of it, no	[21:55]
danuker:	I think you should look at it; they use QR codes instead of an Optical Data Diode; perhaps you could do the same in your process	[21:55]
jfw:	heh, what distinction do you draw there?	[21:55]
jfw:	I mean, is a QR code not a one-way low-bandwidth optical channel?	[21:56]
danuker:	well, yes it is	[21:56]
danuker:	lol	[21:56]
danuker:	I suppose with a diode you could sign chat messages realtime, instead of requiring the user to scan	[21:57]
danuker:	so the diode would be higher-bandwidth	[21:58]
danuker:	also, they use dice instead of the $500 TRNG	[21:59]
danuker:	but again, lower bandwidth	[21:59]
danuker:	depends on what your clients want	[21:59]
jfw:	dice certainly work if used properly but um… need rather a lot of patience.	[21:59]
danuker:	wow, 62 six-sided dice	[22:01]
jfw:	and sigh it was originally a ~$35 TRNG; vendor closed but the schematics are there waiting for someone to step up and make more	[22:02]
danuker:	wow	[22:02]
jfw:	also re qr codes – the scanning especially requires substantially more complex hardware + software compared to a UART based optoisolator. For secure systems especially one wants to keep things simple. That said, it's probably not that big a deal unless you're scanning with some non-dedicated usb webcam or phone or such horrors.	[22:08]
jfw:	mircea_popescu was known for airgapping by slavegirls manually typing base64	[22:09]
danuker:	lol	[22:10]
danuker:	I understand. You'd need webcam drivers, yes	[22:10]
jfw:	danuker: I gotta run but am usually online 7pm UTC per diana_coman's schedule.	[22:11]
danuker:	see ya!	[22:12]
Day changed to 2020-07-18
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/augmentum-gratiae/ << Trilema — Augmentum gratiae	[20:46]
diana_coman:	jfw – I had a go today at installing the whole gbw orchestra: on the positive side, it's apparently doable in less than a day (at least when having already in place a trb-compat node (for the online part), a gales install (for the offline part) and otherwise the whole pile of vpatches and the sources for all the stuff to add to a basic gales install); on the questions side – the check of gscm	[21:07]
diana_coman:	turned out 4 fails – are these known or what do I have wrong in there?	[21:07]
jfw:	diana_coman: heh, I suppose less than a day is a start at least.	[21:08]
diana_coman:	as additional observations: building and installing the whole pile of gports that were in fact required when starting with the most basic gales was indeed quite tedious	[21:08]
jfw:	yes the test failures are known (noted in package/README, iirc)	[21:08]
diana_coman:	for that matter hm, my very basic install seems to have been more basic than dorion's or something.	[21:09]
jfw:	and yes the not-quite-a-portage is… not-quite-usable :/	[21:10]
diana_coman:	jfw – I was getting to the part of "less than a day is a start" indeed – it might be just me, but I finally managed to use that watch command of the gbw-node only after I …read the code for it specifically, lol	[21:12]
jfw:	re dorion's: yeah looks like there are autoconfs and the like not pictured	[21:13]
diana_coman:	re time though do note that I'm not that much used to gales and even less to the 2 new types of install (the gports + the /package etc); not that they are extremely complicated as such, either of them, but I was surely not terribly fast (and yeah, I found ways to mess it up, ofc, though through my mistake)	[21:15]
jfw:	re "watch", was the "help" hard to find, or not helpful enough or something else? I see it is pretty terse.	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw – help was easy to find; I even had the examples from both dorion and whaack; but me being me, if it said "list of addresses", I took it for instance first to mean that I can therefore go watch tag1 addr1 tag2 addr2 (with enter,s ure)	[21:16]
diana_coman:	then the more confusing thing was that watch tag addr [enter] addr2 actually imported correctly the first and crashed on the second for maximum puzzlement (until I read the code so I saw it wanted tag [enter] addr1 [enter] addr2	[21:18]
diana_coman:	ah, I even got a case where it didn't crash but didn't add anything either, lol	[21:19]
jfw:	possibly missing an error check for excess CLI arguments; but yeah the tag is CLI arg while list of addresses is stdin.	[21:19]
jfw:	"linewise" could certainly be expanded in the help; thanks for noting the trouble.	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jfw – since atm the online part is still busy scanning so I won't poke it just yet, might as well ask first – if I add another address to watched list and I know already that it doesn't appear until block Y – can I set it to scan from there or is it just full reset?	[21:27]
jfw:	revisiting http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1027989 – I still see it as more general: it's adding to the v.pl tree the capability to fetch a complete set of patches from a given publisher, using a more streamlined scheme than mod6 had included. Indeed I'd be the only one publishing in that format at the start, but nothing says it has to stay that way.	[21:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-17 21:35:45 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw – so it's basically jfwsoftware-starter, pretty much.	[21:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: there's no easy command to scan from arbitrary height but setting the scan_height in the state table will do it.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jfw – my understanding was that you were planning to add not only the capability but the hardcoded publisher=jfw since keys etc; ie adding the capability to my mind does not include specific keys of anyone.	[21:30]
diana_coman:	ah, setting in the table is good enough for sure.	[21:30]
jfw:	diana_coman: I see what you mean about the keys.	[21:32]
jfw:	so the change to the v.pl tree is general but the starter would be indeed be optimized for my stuff albeit re-targetable.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	so it sounds like a .vpatch that adds the capability itself and thus perfectly fine in the tree and otherwise a starter pack that is optimised for your use.	[21:39]
jfw:	exactly	[21:40]
diana_coman:	no problem that I can see there at all.	[21:40]
jfw:	cool, ty.	[21:41]
diana_coman:	and speaking of seeing problems – while the PORTS doc for gales was basically salvation itself, it was still an initially confusing salvation, lol	[21:41]
jfw:	haha	[21:41]
diana_coman:	that /var/build/gales-linux as "REPO" and then to expect REPO/gports ahem; specifically: I had /gales/gports	[21:42]
diana_coman:	and the sources as a tar separately so I was looking where to plonk those	[21:43]
diana_coman:	so reading that made me think they should be in /var/build/gales-linux but then…what gports there?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	to solve this for the logs: the sources in fact go into /gales/dist/src	[21:45]
jfw:	hm, I used to think of the gports tree as a separate thing like the portage tree; then decided it's simply a part of the larger gales tree (i.e. including the bootstrap stuff) hence REPO/gports. Perhaps instructions got crossed somewhere	[21:45]
diana_coman:	the gports are in /gales/gports	[21:45]
diana_coman:	one can of course create wherever any dir and link that to those but yeah, it's not src/gports	[21:46]
diana_coman:	jfw – yeah, it read a bit like that ie something left from older/changed stuff	[21:46]
jfw:	there isn't presently any assumption about the gports path: builds are done relative to working directory. might need to add one if another level of automation is added though, so in that case yes /gales/gports (or symlink from there) it is	[21:49]
jfw:	not mentioning the /gales/dist/src tarball-hopper in PORTS is indeed an omission.	[21:52]
jfw:	it's the equiv. of /usr/portage/distfiles.	[21:52]
diana_coman:	well, if it's any consolation, there were way, way funnier things to notice in the output of compiling stuff like perl and python	[21:56]
jfw:	I bet.	[21:56]
jfw:	Off to unwrap what I expect is my shiny new APU1 – aka "only x86 computer still on the market not known to be evil" or thereabouts	[22:05]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/block-explorer-progress-whats-done-whats-next/ << whaack — Block Explorer Progress – What's Done, What's Next	[22:20]
whaack:	jfw: Is there any reference (other than the trb codebase) that specifies the encoding for all the various data structures used to store a block and its transaction? The bitcoin wiki is closed to what I'm looking for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm, with the field / size in bytes column, but I would like a full list that actually contained the type in addition to the byte size	[23:00]
whaack:	(i.e. big endian int, little endian uint)	[23:00]
jfw:	whaack: if you're looking for an authoritative reference that specifies things, then no, "the code is the spec" unfortunately. Secondary sources may still be helpful for introduction or quick reference although I've found the wiki to be of mixed (mostly poor) quality.	[23:24]
jfw:	I did however freeze a copy of it.	[23:25]
jfw:	https://developer.bitcoin.org/reference/ purports to descend from documents I once found helpful.	[23:29]
jfw:	possibly the gbw-node block/tx unpacking code? which itself cites trb source files	[23:31]
jfw:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2019/draft-gbw-node-frontend-part-1/?b=Bitcoin%20data&e=parsing#select	[23:34]
jfw:	on endianness specifically, most everything is implicitly little-endian because Satoshi was in the Wintel bubble.	[23:39]
Day changed to 2020-07-19
whaack:	jfw: Alright, yes the gbw-node unpack code is the best reference I have for the moment but i'm looking for the way the extraneous fields (sequence number, version number) are stored. Arguably since they have no use their encoding is insignificant.	[00:06]
jfw:	whaack: from http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks/tree/bitcoin/src/main.h#L272 we see that nSequence is handled in the "usual" way. http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks/tree/bitcoin/src/serialize.h#L123 is the heart of the macro/template serialization monstrosity, wherein we see that basic types are simply done as a memory dump; from the	[01:09]
jfw:	context we then infer that an unsigned int is 32-bit little endian.	[01:09]
diana_coman:	whaack – re block explorer – do you plan to run this as a service as a free-for-all-to-push-whatever or as what? if after all those years and all the [http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/27/a-review-of-the-bitcoin-category-on-trilemacom/][experience made available, illustrated, brought home with a bigger hammer and pictures and	[09:29]
diana_coman:	everything one can possibly think of], the moment a new bitcoin-related service is supposedly designed the "decision" ends up in short order "let's make a web interface and do it for good measure with whatever seems convenient what-can-possibly-go-wrong-or-why-would-it-matter", there's really not much point in pretending any "concerned about making sure" anything, seriously.	[09:29]
diana_coman:	whaack – do me this favour and walk me through that decision process that ended up with "flask is the best option for this job", will you?	[09:30]
whaack:	diana_coman: What do you mean by a "free-for-all-to-push-whatever"? As for the flask decision, I guess it was a bit of a man-alone "this is what i think is the best decision based on my current knowledge."	[19:33]
whaack:	And perhaps this should not even be a web service at all, I'm not sure. One could argue that someone w/ a local blockchain is only going to want to explore blocks they can see on their own node, and one without shouldn't be given this service for free (as it only encourages them to not run their own node.)	[19:49]
whaack:	I had these doubts on my mind and decided to just tangentially mention them on my blog, I should have brought them here as direction questions.	[19:50]
trinque:	whaack: did you happen to read the #t threads on this?	[19:56]
trinque:	I'll point out, the content of blocks never changes.	[19:57]
whaack:	trinque: No I haven't, do you have a link handy?	[19:58]
trinque:	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934296 << I can only find me mentioning it.	[20:03]
snsabot:	(trilema) 2019-09-06 trinque: iirc at one point also a block explorer was contemplated that'd shit static html	[20:03]
whaack:	trinque: alright that's a good option. For the "block" explorer portion of the block explorer that works great. I also have functions to lookup information about a transaction or an address. The result of those two functions changes as outputs get spent / new txns come in that reference an address, respectively.	[20:35]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028076 – ok; why do you think it's the best decision?	[20:50]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-19 19:33:04 (#ossasepia) whaack: diana_coman: What do you mean by a "free-for-all-to-push-whatever"? As for the flask decision, I guess it was a bit of a man-alone "this is what i think is the best decision based on my current knowledge."	[20:50]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028078 – whaack, especially when in doubt, just speak up in here, it can't possibly hurt, can it?	[20:52]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-19 19:50:26 (#ossasepia) whaack: I had these doubts on my mind and decided to just tangentially mention them on my blog, I should have brought them here as direction questions.	[20:52]
whaack:	diana_coman: Because the amount of time getting setup with flask is pretty low, it does what I need, it's been used before successfully, and I don't know of any other python web framework (other than django)	[20:54]
diana_coman:	what is it you need done there?	[20:55]
whaack:	I need to redirect web requests pointed at different urls to different python functions while passsing in query parameter values as parameters to those functions. The functions need to be able to return a string that gets sent to the user as html. I need to make sure that whatever process is doing this can handle multiple simultaneous requests without getting locked up.	[20:57]
diana_coman:	why are web requests the need ?	[20:58]
whaack:	I imagine that the easy access + a point and click interface with addresses and txn hashes being links to view information about themselves will be seen as useful.	[21:01]
diana_coman:	that doesn't sound much like a "need", does it	[21:01]
diana_coman:	fwiw, point-and-click interface is not the best I can think of, no.	[21:01]
whaack:	I'm very willing to challenge that assumption	[21:02]
whaack:	(My own assumption that point and click interface is a good option, that is)	[21:02]
diana_coman:	at any rate, even taking all you said above as a given, entirely missing from the consideration in there is the amount of complexity this "time getting setup with flask is pretty low" brings in.	[21:03]
diana_coman:	whaack – as trinque pointed out, the blocks themselves ie the basic "what a block explorer even is" are not changing; basically what you have there is an instance of a wider class of problems namely data visualization	[21:05]
diana_coman:	as such, what you are in fact looking for (and what you were groping for earlier perhaps without quite realising it when you were asking for "what would be useful") are queries and data-views that harness best the data in there for various purposes	[21:07]
whaack:	correct.	[21:07]
diana_coman:	you know, depending on how deep you are interested to go with this, you can make it anything between a simple listing of blocks at the plainest end and otherwise a full-blown data explorer-cum-aggregator-cum-visualizer, whatever you come up with, at the other end	[21:09]
whaack:	I think taking it one step at a time towards the latter end is the right way to go forward.	[21:09]
diana_coman:	the thing is that the simplest thing is static, while the exploration required to find out the best useful selection out of the ton of possibilities further is not something best done via…web interface	[21:10]
diana_coman:	further and leaving all the above aside for a bit, I can't quite understand why "web interface" rather than…irc bot? can even plug it in with the wot relatively easy and so leverage further existing systems for access and so on; even if "web interface", I can't yet see at all the case for something terribly complex	[21:12]
whaack:	Okay. The other option I see then is to simply make READ on my database public and provide a script for some basic queries.	[21:12]
whaack:	ircbot works well too	[21:12]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028076 – this was specifically re the "push" command as I understood you want to provide this ie visitor to your website drops some raw transaction.	[21:14]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-19 19:33:04 (#ossasepia) whaack: diana_coman: What do you mean by a "free-for-all-to-push-whatever"? As for the flask decision, I guess it was a bit of a man-alone "this is what i think is the best decision based on my current knowledge."	[21:14]
whaack:	yes atm it is a free-for-all-to-push-whatever. perhaps this is a dangerous idea	[21:15]
diana_coman:	whaack – you know, it depends also who exactly are your target users there; if you target those in dire need of "point and click", then I suppose you "must" web interface but in such case dunno, they already have a wide choice I should say, not exactly any lack of some website of this sort, is there?	[21:16]
diana_coman:	otoh I don't know that people around here are all that much into gotta click something (not to mention that uhm, bitcoin-related even less, if at all possible, lol)	[21:17]
whaack:	no there's not a lack of those websites, although they are all covered in ads and extraneous crap	[21:18]
diana_coman:	heh, it's what the customers expect, what	[21:21]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jul-2020/#1028110 – assuming you check what gets dumped in there, I don't see why would it be dangerous, no; only very wasteful as such and in my opinion a very poor strategic decision.	[21:24]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-19 21:15:16 (#ossasepia) whaack: yes atm it is a free-for-all-to-push-whatever. perhaps this is a dangerous idea	[21:24]
whaack:	diana_coman: With the ircbot interface, how do you imagine I should give the response to a query? As a post to paste.deedbot.org? The responses will be too long to be dumped into a channel.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	whaack – probably a paste indeed	[21:33]
diana_coman:	basically the answer on irc would be a link to the raw paste and all is fine and easy to get at.	[21:35]
whaack:	diana_coman: Alright. Tbh I think the irc interface is a little more clunky, with one jumping around from client commands to pastes.	[21:39]
diana_coman:	whaack – hm? being raw, you get the data with a curl/similar, no?	[21:42]
diana_coman:	whaack – if you already have some sort of visualization that you know is great for whatever specific thing, sure, provide that in whatever form works best; but before you have that, there isn't much more than premature optimization that you can do there.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	whaack – alternatively you can go the mpex route I guess.	[21:44]
whaack:	diana_coman: the mpex route being you paste something signed somewhere and mpex reads it and responds with some signed message on a public board? or just that its a private service you connect to?	[21:49]
whaack:	bbl, ~20 mins	[21:49]
diana_coman:	whaack – whether signed or not is up to you (ie 2nd consideration); the benefit of irc is that you can leverage existing voice and so on to not ask people to sign each and every query (because ugh, it is excessive really); but if you want as alternative non-irc, you can still do that quite easily with rather basic html.	[21:55]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[21:55]
Day changed to 2020-07-21
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/la-grande-guerra/ << Trilema — La Grande Guerra	[13:08]
diana_coman:	whaack – meant to add re block explorer bot: at least some queries might be quite simple+ make sense to just answer in chan e.g. something like height or the like; and for that matter it could make it easier to just build it up gradually, starting with such simple stuff and then adding to it.	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/07/a-balcony-report/ << Bimbo Club — A balcony report	[22:43]
jfw:	bvt: ping re http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/#comment-313 ; turns out there's a Documentation/media/uapi/v4l/field-order_files/fieldseq_tb.pdf in linux-genesis.vpatch, and possibly a lot of Unicode too (e.g. CREDITS)	[22:44]
Day changed to 2020-07-22
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/il-seduttore/ << Trilema — Il Seduttore	[01:50]
diana_coman:	lol, feedbot flood of comments published all at once on fixpoint, so I gather jfw remembered suddenly he had a blog too!	[20:59]
dorion:	lol.	[21:03]
jfw:	well pingbacks mostly but I ain't complainin'.	[21:08]
jfw:	whaack: endianism comment meanwhile overripening in ztkfg mod queue :D	[21:10]
diana_coman:	jfw – ha, so you are complainin', only from the other end of it!	[21:11]
jfw:	merely furtively deflecting a bit.	[21:15]
diana_coman:	wrong bit order – it didn't register :P	[21:16]
trinque:	snickers from the peanut gallery	[21:16]
Day changed to 2020-07-24
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/07/passing-days/ << Bimbo Club — Passing days	[00:06]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-last-blog/ << Trilema — The last blog	[02:34]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/24/those-zip-files-of-euloras-client-graphics/ << Ossa Sepia — Those Zip Files of Eulora's Client Graphics	[14:42]
diana_coman:	whaack – how's it going, did you get stuck on something (what)?	[20:55]
whaack:	diana_coman: Yes I did, but it was tangential – my motherboard finally gave in completely so I had to put my computer together again.	[20:57]
diana_coman:	the motherboard of the new computer??	[20:59]
whaack:	The old motherboard had various issues but eventually all the usb ports died so I was unable to interface with my computer.	[20:59]
whaack:	Yeah the one I built about six months ago.	[20:59]
diana_coman:	o.O	[20:59]
whaack:	I can now confirm that certain problems that I suspected were hardware issues (such as the LAN port not working) were indeed hardware issues, as they have gone away with the installation of the new mobo.	[21:01]
diana_coman:	so it was as much of a scam as it seemed, ugh.	[21:06]
diana_coman:	well, hopefully the new motherboard at least is new and good.	[21:09]
whaack:	seems to be, thankfully billymg had a spare one to sell	[21:10]
diana_coman:	as a rule and in time it kind of pays off to have spare components of all sorts around anyway.	[21:11]
jfw:	Apropos, I'll disclose – now that I've given them two chances to fix it – that "SiliconKit" pulled quite the same "pcgamingcr" preassembly scam on my APU1	[21:14]
sonofawitch:	2020-07-18 22:05:04 (#ossasepia) jfw: Off to unwrap what I expect is my shiny new APU1 – aka "only x86 computer still on the market not known to be evil" or thereabouts	[21:14]
jfw:	Because the tariff, and the customs, somehow!	[21:15]
diana_coman:	it's probably the "consumers have come to expect"; I wouldn't be surprised if in time one can buy components as such only…unofficially; (and yeah, it's exactly that '80s in communist Romania flavour all over again).	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw – oh, there will always be plenty of becauses, lol.	[21:16]
jfw:	I'ma have good article fodder at least.	[21:16]
jfw:	well, if that's how it goes I'll have to be that intolerant minority that inexplicably won't buy kosher unless it's kosher	[21:19]
diana_coman:	hm, should I wish now for more trouble-with-buying components so that jfw starts writing? lolz	[21:20]
jfw:	would it help?	[21:20]
diana_coman:	by earlier line, it would give you good blog fodder so …maybe?	[21:21]
jfw:	the wishing I meant. the troubles will probably continue fine on their own	[21:22]
diana_coman:	ah, that depends on the …wishing ability!	[21:24]
jfw:	good to know!	[21:24]
diana_coman:	but yeah, I totally trust you to find enough troubles on your own!	[21:24]
jfw:	that must be an ability too.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	it is, it is.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	needs to step offline, will be back tomorrow as usual.	[21:27]
Day changed to 2020-07-25
whaack:	I'm taking the time to write a backup script for my computer, as the new mobo has granted me access to my HDD. I'm seeking recommendations for how to go about this. I'm considering running the backup script as root and storing everything from the top level "/". I also am considering just storing the home directory of the user I typically use for my work.	[01:30]
trinque:	whaack: for personal machines, I typically have a setup script, and back up only /home, maybe /var if there's anything interesting going on in there (db, etc)	[01:45]
trinque:	or hell, can dd if=/dev/sda \| gzip > backup.gz	[01:46]
trinque:	really depends on what you want to accomplish	[01:46]
trinque:	obviously the latter you'd want to do with the thing not writably mounted	[01:47]
whaack:	trinque: Hm I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement. It may be because I don't understand well what "dd" does. From what I remember and a quick look at the man page that is going to copy all of the contents on /dev/sda and then gzip that and write the output to a file "backup.gz" in the scripts current directory (could be on the backup disk)	[02:00]
trinque:	sounds like you understand well enough	[02:02]
trinque:	but yes, latter would be a block-by-block copy of the device, compressed, and written elsewhere	[02:03]
trinque:	the reason I preference the former is that I don't need n copies of the same packages lying around. I just keep my install media around for distros/OS I use	[02:04]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-man-who-had-a-dog/ << Trilema — The man who had a dog…	[16:44]
diana_coman:	whaack, didn't you have those rsync cron jobs anyway, why are they not enough?	[20:49]
Day changed to 2020-07-26
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/canzone-e-ciccio-cappuccio-orig-1892-reprint/ << Trilema — Canzone 'e Ciccio Cappuccio (orig. 1892 ; reprint)	[19:17]
Day changed to 2020-07-27
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/but-do-yall-really-still-believe-in-coincidences << The Tar Pit — … but do y'all really still believe in coincidences?	[18:32]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/the-fixpoint-used-car-checkup-checklist/ << Fixpoint — The Fixpoint used car checkup checklist	[20:45]
jfw:	will be off shortly to assist in person with application of the above.	[21:03]
diana_coman:	good luck !	[21:04]
jfw:	thanks	[21:04]
Day changed to 2020-07-28
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/der-zwiebelschnitzel-el-dia-de-tres-lluvias-sex-on-the-beach-c/ << Trilema — Der Zwiebelschnitzel, el dia de tres lluvias, sex on the beach &c	[03:38]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/riso-amaro/ << Trilema — Riso Amaro	[19:21]
Day changed to 2020-07-29
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/san-jose-vive-and-other-narrative-fancies-of-the-failed-female-state/ << Trilema — San Jose Vive and other narrative fancies of the failed female state	[00:18]
Day changed to 2020-07-30
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/07/30/whats-euloras-gui-going-to-be-like/ << Ossa Sepia — What's Eulora's GUI Going to Be Like?	[15:02]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/due-soldi-di-speranza/ << Trilema — Due soldi di speranza	[19:06]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/briefly-on-programming-irc-bots-using-common-lisp << The Tar Pit — Briefly, on programming IRC bots using Common Lisp	[20:21]
diana_coman:	fwiw and as I just saw spyked's trouble keeping a node in sync on mechanical HDD – I can confirm it's possible, at least so far.	[20:59]
diana_coman:	and I mean sync without feeding it blocks separately.	[21:00]
diana_coman:	jfw – what's the exact definition of a "sane system" as required by your build system for trb or is there a different distro you successfully tried it on?	[21:03]
jfw:	diana_coman: is an exact definition of sanity ever possible? anyway, so far not tested on distros besides Gales Linux. Apparently whaack had trouble building on CentOS which I mean to look into this week.	[21:07]
diana_coman:	well, all terms were in the given tech context, you know?	[21:09]
diana_coman:	so no, not asking for the philosophical exactd definition of sanity, lol	[21:09]
jfw:	well for instance, I'm sure it can be got to build on CentOS, but that would mean it ends up with glibc and probably some degree of dynamic linking, which for a certain view of what a bitcoin node is, won't count as sane	[21:11]
diana_coman:	aha; I simply wanted to figure out if it turned out so far more of a gales-advantage basically or there are other tested options.	[21:16]
whaack:	jfw: My trouble on centos was that I needed to make sure `python` pointed to python 2.7 (instead of 2.6.6) http://ztkfg.com/2020/07/building-trb-on-centos-69-notes-on-a-few-gotchas/	[21:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: alright. my experience with HDD node which I'm guessing is what you saw	[21:25]
jfw:	whaack: right, and that python is involved at all seems somewhat interesting. Probably no end of such hassles though so long as the DWIM-heavy build systems of the dependency libs remain in place.	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw – that's the discussion, yes; thanks for linking it, too.	[21:27]
jfw:	np	[21:27]
diana_coman:	whaack – so then why not-sane re centos, I don't get it?	[21:27]
diana_coman:	because no python 2.7?	[21:27]
jfw:	meanwhile we've had a hot spell and I've left that test machine mostly off so the poor HDD node is a ways behind.	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw – should add re hdd that indeed, when starting from 0, it all depends on what "bearable time for sync" means for one; yes, I sync-ed a node like that; no, I didn't mind it took a few months to get there (after that it remained in sync without any trouble really)	[21:30]
jfw:	indeed. curious, did you do any bdb cache tuning there? I observed the default seems to be set quite low	[21:31]
jfw:	but casual tests haven't shown much difference for me	[21:31]
diana_coman:	no, I did not.	[21:32]
whaack:	diana_coman: I said that centos does not make the cut for being a sane environment because of the point jfw made about dynamic linking. I don't fully understand the ramifications though, from what I gather the problem boils down to you don't know if the binary you get from compiling on computer A == the binary you get from compiling on computer B	[21:45]
whaack:	I need to clear up some confusion of dynamic vs static linking and the problems with the former	[21:49]
diana_coman:	whaack, it's true that the default install of centos iirc does not come with static linking, but this doesn't mean you can't set it up for that, lol	[21:51]
diana_coman:	anyways, now I'm confused – did you manage to build trb statically linked on centos or not?	[21:51]
whaack:	erm…I ran `make ONLINE=1` and have a running bitcoind, I'm not quite sure that it is statically linked	[21:52]
diana_coman:	jfw – meant to say: I got around to give a spin to your full online/offline gbw orchestra and all went quite smoothly as far as that test went.	[22:09]
jfw:	thanks diana_coman.	[22:12]
jfw:	whaack, http://trinque.org/2019/12/29/a-republican-os-part-2/ might be a start for glibc vs. musl which is a somewhat distinct question from dynamic linking	[22:12]
jfw:	the enemy might make amusing reading re static linking – "it's no good, because I broke it"	[22:13]
Day changed to 2020-07-31
trinque:	> the libc	[01:17]
trinque:	the only one, indeed.	[01:17]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/il-delitto-di-giovanni-episcopo/ << Trilema — Il delitto di Giovanni Episcopo	[01:51]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/maddalena-zero-in-condotta/ << Trilema — Maddalena… zero in condotta	[18:11]
jfw:	whaack: it looks to me like the boost python build problem on centos is not about the version but that python binding development headers are not shipped with the basic python package, while boost assumes "have python interpreter therefore want python and can link to its library version"	[22:15]
jfw:	whaack: would you be interested in taking on taming the boost build system, i.e. replacing bjam with a plain makefile that builds only the necessary parts?	[22:17]
jfw:	I'd be happy to advise on that; and you'll learn technique that will apply to way more than just boost, though it seems like a good place to start as it's the biggest piece of deadweight in the TRB build.	[22:22]

Comments (2)

June 28, 2020

Eulora Client Data Hierarchy – Finally Getting There!

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 3:59 pm

Eulora’s communication protocol aims to be indeed as short and simple as possible while providing at the same time the full means for sending over to the client *anything and everything* at all that might be wanted now or later on, whether known currently or not. Given this broad scope and combined with the terrible state of the original client, it’s perhaps no wonder that I had a rather frustrating time with my previous attempts at pinning down a practical implementation of it: here’s for instance one attempt of defining the client-side data hierarchy and there’s its further refinement too, but those are only two cases that I fully documented in an attempt to clarify matters better – the effort was certainly not wasted but the results in both cases are still lacking and I found myself repeatedly getting tangled in all sorts in there, as it’s indeed very easy to run into circular definitions of things or get confused by the required combination of structure, meaning and representation. Nevertheless and much to my recent relief, it seems that I finally got my head around it – it took only yet another re-read of *everything* around it, previous discussions and attempts included, as well as all the previous hand-banging and failures, of course, what else.

As it happens though in such cases, once the last bits and pieces finally fell into place, it all started to make sense and fit together (although it *also* meant that half of my initial test/exploration implementation had to be thrown away; sigh). Since the actual implementation is still in the works and it’s likely to still take a while as it’s not exactly a walk in the park, I am taking this time now to try and set down my current clearer understanding of how it’s all going to work – so that on one hand I have a reference point for later on and on the other hand it’s out in the open for any further discussion and fault-finding.

For clarity and keeping it all contained here, note that I’ll focus strictly on the data transfer part of the protocol, meaning messages for File Request, File Transfer, World Bulletin, Object Request and Object Info ¹. Of those, the last three are not even fully defined in the current protocol precisely as further details needed clarification – in particular the “object list” in the World Bulletin and the “object properties” in the Object Info are essentially “to be defined”. Skipping through all the intermediate attempts that either didn’t quite fully work or turned out to be in practice so clunky that I couldn’t live with them at all, the breakthrough basically came when I finally managed to set down a few basic things (that even seem very simple in retrospect, of course). To get it all in one place:

There’s only *one* primitive to this whole thing and that is “object”, no exceptions. For a long time I kept tripping over “properties” and “values” and whatnots, as I didn’t quite grasp the boundaries (admiteddly blurry of times) of the different perspectives involved and kept trying to sort out or pin down too fine details before having a solid higher-level structure to rely on.
Objects may be concrete or abstract. The concrete objects are essentially those with a direct graphical representation in the game (such as your character or even the terrain as a whole). The abstract objects provide all and any sorts of other information required (such as what time it is in game perhaps or which object from all those in the world is actually your character!).
The whole game world (and this does include *everything* that may be requested or received through the set of messages mentioned above) is a hierarchy of objects with a single “root” node that is quite special in that it’s essentially the “null” object itself. So to “request” the World Bulletin, the client basically needs to request the “null” object. This hierarchy of objects that is a full representation of the game world can be arbitrarely deep and wide at any given time – the only guarantee is that it is indeed finite at all times but the number of levels or the number of siblings on any level can and will change, there’s no restriction on either of them (nor any need for such restriction).
The hierarchy of objects given as above provides basically the *structure* of the world, effectively describing where *is* each concrete object (or where it belongs, if it’s an abstract object). As such, concrete objects can of course move about from one parent object to another (and take all their corresponding subtree with them). Abstract objects are, logically speaking, less likely to suddenly move to a different parent but there is no guarantee that this can’t or shouldn’t happen either.
The full set of object types can be neatly split into TWO main categories: “leaf” types and “non-leaf” types. Realising this was big for me, as it suddenly got rid of a lot of mess in there: non-leaf types of objects can only ever contain other objects (of any types though and in any number) but *nothing else*; by contrast, leaf types of objects do NOT contain other objects (obviously!) but have instead a predefined and fixed structure (basically, values). A lot of my previous trouble seems to have come from mixing those two groups ie considering that an object type may legitimately contain both other objects AND values ². There’s no real need for this mix that I can see and it only causes such a mess that it’s not even worth fully describing. Once those 2 types of objects are neatly separated, everything falls in place and there is both the desired full extensibility of the whole thing (one can add any number of non-leaf or leaf types, as well as any number of intermediate levels in the hierarchy anywhere at any time without breaking anything) and the needed clarity for a working implementation: as long as a non-leaf type of object is encountered, the “properties” of it will simply be again an “object list” just like in the World Bulletin message; as soon as a leaf type of object is encountered, its structure is clearly known and *fully fixed upfront* so it can be actually worked with! Certainly, it may well be that one implementation or another is not aware of some newer types, be they leaves or not – in such cases, those types will be ignored since what else can the code do anyway, not like it can use what it doesn’t know about. Note though that this doesn’t break any of the rest – it will work for and with what it knows, while dropping what it doesn’t and that’s that.
All objects have a unique ID and a type, meaning that an object is effectively a tuple (Object_ID, Type_ID). In practical implementation terms, this means that the “object list” in the World Bulletin message is *always* ³ simply a set of pairs of numbers so if World Bulletin gives 5 as “count of objects”, then there will be 5 pairs of IDs following, interpreted exactly like that: first ID in a pair is object’s ID, second ID in a pair is type ID and there’s no need for separators or any further information provided.
For a non-leaf object type, the Object Info message will *always* contain as “object properties” simply an object list (the text field still works perfectly fine since it’s known that there are 4 octets per ID), just like the World Bulletin. (Note though that the Object Info message may refer to more than one object and so some of those may be leaf types, too, so the properties for those will be different, see next item.)
For a leaf object type, the Object Info message will *always* contain as “object properties” the exact structure known for that specific type. Obviously, a full list of those structures is in the works and will be published but the crucial thing here is that the contents of those structures are always *values*, never objects. Sure, it can very well be that a value in there stands for an id of some object but the *meaning* is very different since it is NOT about structure anymore and so that id in there will then reference an *existing* object from somewhere else in the tree instead of introducing a new object (and therefore it will NOT need to come with the type id either)!
Values in the structures defined for leaf node types may be in principle of any known type, whether basic or not. From a practical point of view, the only truly special case is that of a value that represents a filename, since in this case there’s effectively a further level to it all – the implementation will have to send a File Request message to get the actual content of the file, if it doesn’t yet have it. Nevertheless, this is not any significant trouble as such.

For a practical example, here’s my current must-have basic set of object types that I think are absolutely needed in order to get the client to the stage where it finds and requests graphics assets that it doesn’t have:

RootObj (the null object is the only one having this type and therefore the type itself is essentially an abstraction, no need for a type id as such)
1. SelfObj containing for now ⁴:
  1. PlayerIDObj – this is LEAF type with a single value, an Unsigned_32 that references the object in the world that represents the character controlled by the player.
2. SectorObj (the id of this object will be given as top_id in a World Bulletin, too) containing for now:
  1. NameObj – this is LEAF type with a single *text* value.
  2. OutdoorsObj, containing:
    1. ZipObj – this is LEAF type with a single *text* value representing the full path and name of a zip file that contains *all* the graphics assets required for a sector. Note that the exact contents may change at later times but I don’t see this as any problem – for one thing the plan is that the client will be able to select one overall schema at any given time and that schema will determine what exact file is made available here and for another thing, those schemas will be known upfront so a client will select what it knows and therefore won’t have surprises regarding the content of this zip file either. For a long time I tripped over the trouble of defining the graphics in too much detail, quite possibly precisely because I lacked that knowledge myself. As meanwhile I sorted out this issue and I know all too well what exactly is needed, I finally realised that the only way to cut this knot neatly is to just specify a .zip file as a general “graphics assets for a logical object”, no need for more at this level.
    2. HashObj – this is LEAF type with a single Unsigned64 value that represents the Keccak hash ⁵ of the .zip file above.
  3. Any number of PlayerObj, containing:
    1. NameObj – this is LEAF type with a single *text* value.
    2. PosRotObj – this is LEAF type, with its value (“properties” text field in the Object Info message type) sent over the wire as 3 int16s for position followed by 3 int8s for rotation, as per the protocol specification
    3. Cal3DObj, containing:
      1. ZipObj – LEAF type, as above (see at OutdoorsObj – the big gain here is that although a Cal3D model will have an entirely DIFFERENT set of files in that zip than an OutdoorsObj, from the point of view of protocol spec and data acquisition, there is NO difference! They are simply all .zip file and that’s that, no matter what they currently contain or may contain in the future or whatever else, hooray.)
      2. HashObj – LEAF type, as above (ie the hash of the zip file, for checking that it is indeed the intended file).

The above is “all” for now – if still just a plan to be implemented. Sure, I have otherwise the concrete details of what those .zip files for instance will contain and all that but they don’t really matter all that much from the point of view of the overall data model and data acquisition – the contents are in the end of interest strictly for the GUI/graphical part itself so they’ll be handled there and only there.

Regarding the recent discussion of the potential need to be able to choose sizes for textures and so on – those I think are also best chosen separately, at a higher level, as an overall thing, so not going about specifying them for each and every texture or image file or something. At any rate, I don’t think it’s something that absolutely must be included in the spec at this time or here but do let me know if you see any trouble with any of the above, as usual!

The encryption and lower level packaging part of the protocol has been already cleared up, implemented and working fine, see the SMG_Comms category for detailed documentation on it and the basic docs for a high-level overview of the client’s structure overall.[↩]
In turn, this came from my still-not-wide-enough definition of objects, since I didn’t quite grasp that there will be objects strictly for this purpose basically e.g. there’s an object that would be fully described as graphical-model-of-Sue’s-helmet-at-night-on-the-moon or some such. Once I got my head around this, I even find it difficult to fully point the trouble I previously had with it, go figure. Though in hindsight, I suspect at least part of the trouble was the unhelpful overlap with “object-oriented” idiocy, ffs.[↩]
There’s a reason for NOT ever having directly a “leaf” type of object in the root: leaf types of objects provide concrete values in predefined structures but they do NOT contain, nor can they contain at the same time the meaning and role that those values are to play at any given time. Hence, the root node will always have to contain at least one level of non-leaf objects and I kick myself for not realising this clearly any earlier![↩]
More will be added to this and to most other types described here but right now this is on purpose as small as possible, to have it first implemented and working.[↩]
I chose this as it’s been used elsewhere, though so far not for full files – just let me know if something else would work better, since I need to implement this part anyway so there’s nothing set in stone yet.[↩]

Comments (16)

June 22, 2020

Eulora Client Graphics: Main Types and Formats

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 4:09 pm

Having made by now a full graphics generator that produces everything, from textures to meshes and full animations too ¹, I can also finally get out of the existing swamp of data somethings and provide instead a clear list of types, formats and files that are actually quite enough for client’s needs. Basically there are only 3 big types, each requiring a bunch of specific files:

Outdoors type (or “sector”, “area”, “zone”, “world”, whatever you want to call it, the point is that it has some solid terrain, some sort of “water” in the lower parts and some sort of “sky” that should arguably be in the upper parts only but is in practice all-surrounding). This is the most involved type as it requires three parts, each with its own bunch of specific files ²:
1. Terrain, requiring the following files:
  - heightmap.png
  - materialmap.png ³
  - lightmap.png
  - normalmap.png
  - basemap.png
  - tex_1.png ⁴
  - tex_2.png
  - tex_3.png
  - norm_1.png ⁵
  - norm_2.png
  - norm_3.png
2. Water ⁶, requiring the following files:
  - tex.png
  - tex_reflected.png ⁷
3. Sky ⁸, requiring the following files:
  - tex.png
Non-moving type, aka CS mesh, requiring the following files:
- meshfactory.csmesh ⁹
- tex.png
Moving type, aka Cal3d, requiring the following files:
- skeleton.csf (or .xsf)
- any number of .caf (or .xaf) files – the animations. Those may have in principle names matching the “type of animation” they are meant for but note that on one hand CS/Cal3d has a limited and fixed number of such “types” (specifically: idle, travel, cycle, style_cycle and action) and on the other hand it’s not all that clear what’s the point of them since the more important part is otherwise setting for each some use parameters, of which the most important are the speed interval for which that animation is relevant (hence, when it will be used) and whether to lock in the final pose or not.
- any number of .cmf (or .xmf) files – the meshes making up this model and including the texture mapping. Note that different models have different number of meshes and there is no specific order in which the meshes are numbered either. As a pattern at the moment I’m simply using mesh_id.xmf as name for the file and loading until no file found.
- tex.png (or .dds) – the texture to use for ALL meshes; alternatively, any number of tex_id.png so that each mesh has its own texture, supposing that this might be useful at some point.

In addition to the above, there are a few more formats that are simply one file each, used as such: icons (simply a .png or .dds file), sounds (.ogg or .wav) and perhaps particle systems that will need a SMG format since there is no file/format for them at all, only all sorts of code-side settings of this and that. Currently and as per previous discussion, the sounds are not going to be supported but I mention here for completeness the formats known to work with CS.

All image files may in principle be either .png or .dds, with the .dds format the preferable one (takes less space and requires less computations client-side). This being said though, the client should work with either/both and there is only a reasonable requirement that the size be a power of 2. Current textures are all 512×512 pixels and any change to this needs to be matched with a change to the texture mappings provided for each mesh and so on – in other words, I think the correct approach here is simply to bundle together as above the mesh definition with the texture it is meant to use and don’t even bother otherwise to explicitly provide whatever number of different sizes – the size of an image is anyway included in the file so whoever is interested to extract it may do so directly from there.

The above description of types and formats marks a fundamental shift in approach and since this cleared up for me only gradually as a result of all the work sunk into the graphics and client side since the beginning of this year, I’d rather set it out explicitly here. The old client’s approach focused on loading everything upfront and keeping it all in memory, based on the assumption that there are somehow great gains to this by means of extensive reuse of assets once loaded. In practice I fail to see those gains but there is otherwise ample cost clearly visible and always paid upfront ¹⁰: fixed and difficult to expand set of assets, long – and moreover, getting longer ie *worse* with any extension of the assets!- initial loading time for the client as a whole, significant overhead required to support the reuse fantasy because otherwise there’s precious little reuse when it comes to meshes and characters and even textures. Basically the old idea is of having a central catalogue of all graphics assets and then referencing those from everywhere else. By contrast, my current approach has no such central catalogue and relies instead on each element that requires some graphics assets to know where to find them and possibly have them in its own directory. Essentially, the current approach considers disk space cheap (though NOT network communications – note that assets may end up duplicated locally but in principle they don’t *have to* be also sent 1000 times over the wire; it can very well be perhaps the job of the data acquisition module to duplicate files if/when needed and/or set them or link them where expected), discards the reuse pretense and relies instead on minimal overhead as well as minimal, on-demand loading (potentially coupled at implementation time with aggressive clear up of unused resources if memory gets clogged otherwise).

While the above is not yet set in stone, it might very well soon become set, so let me know if you see any trouble with it or if there’s some better way to go about it that I just don’t see yet.

For the curious, *all* this stands currently at 5581 lines of code+comments+tests+png writer + convenience scripts. No, I did *not* forget any 0 at the end and no, it doesn’t require external libs, platforms whatever-else, it’s standalone, C, gawk and bash code only.[↩]
The .dds format is in principle better but in practice all image files may end up either .dds or .png so the client side will have to make do with what is provided, perhaps run its own conversions if it has to.[↩]
Also known as alpha map, if that helps you any.[↩]
These are the materials that get used/applied depending on the height and on the basemap – while logically speaking I would just say any number of materials should work, in practice the existing terrain plugin wants exactly and precisely 3, not more nor less. This being said, the format from my point of view will be tex_number files and load as many or as few as your client can use.[↩]
Those are normals for the corresponding texture and in principle they are optional though the terrain will likely look worse without them.[↩]
The current implementation does require a bunch of other settings such as reflection coefficient and whatnot but I think that’s strictly a client-side concern so entirely locally-set, nothing to do with getting it from the server.[↩]
This is a texture to be reflected by the water and it’s optional. Currently this is the sky’s image.[↩]
Note that the current implementation does require all sorts of other “options”, from picking the geometry of the sky (!) to a whole bunch of shader variables. Nevertheless, I don’t see why would any of that be a concern outside of each client – so they’ll be set locally, change your client as you want it if you are fed up with the sphere-sky or something.[↩]
XML file in CS “meshfact” format, which can be loaded directly with CS’s loader and then instantiated as and when desired. It contains the following information: position of all vertices, normals of the surface at each vertex, texture coordinates at each vertex, triangles making up the surface. These are effectively listed as such, since this is what CS expects. Note that the format forces the mesh to include a fixed texture mapping, but any texture can be used at load time – how well it will fit or not the mapping is a different matter.[↩]
Come to think of it, this does strike me now as very much the typical problem: paying upfront a significant price for…. not missing an opportunity that never materializes though, huh.[↩]

Comments (14)

June 19, 2020

After the Rain

Filed under: Lyf — Diana Coman @ 10:38 am

After quite a few sunny days, the rain returned with fresh supplies of water steadily poured throughout the day for gradual, reliable and rather in-depth soaking of everything in sight. It kept working hours for most of the week, settling itself to thin but determined drizzling from morning until evening and then going promptly away just in time for the sun to show just how lovely the day could have been – if only it wasn’t already time to call it a night. So I took a few roses indoors and settled in for games and assorted nourishing activities:

This old rain that is so typical here, methodical and set in its ways fits this poor soil quite perfectly – any faster and it wouldn’t go through, any less and the grass already starts yellowing of thirst. It’s perhaps still myself not quite fitting either soil or water at times, for having grown up with different rains on different soil and under different skies. But I never fitted those “other” all that well either and I doubt there’s much sense in looking for whatever perfect fit one might hallucinate at times. Fits and differences aside, what remains seemingly always and everywhere the same though is the temporary absence of buzzing among the flowers, the freshness of rain-washed colours, the brighter sunlight for all its reflection in the tiny drops of water everywhere and the fruit growing and ripening to burst seemingly under your eyes – it’s green and strongly attached to its own roots and twigs today but blink away and it turned already dark red, coming off easily, ready to go away, whether picked up or not. Ready also, some of it at least, to nourish another plant or animal or soil as it might happen:

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June 16, 2020

Updating Your Old Log Links

Filed under: Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:49 pm

As previously announced, I’ll soon decommission the old logger at logs.ossasepia.com and redirect that url to the saner, persistent logs. Since I don’t want to break anyone’s links though, I took the time to extract the full mapping of urls from old to new so that anyone interested can simply run a replace on any text containing the old links. If you get stuck with this and ask in the comments below, I can try to help if it’s clear enough what the problem is but do note that *not everything can be fixed* nor do I promise to be able to help everyone.

For completeness and future reference, here are the steps I followed to extract this mapping and then to update the links on my own blog for #ossasepia and #eulora chans:

Dumped numbers and dates for all loglines from old bot’s database into file1
Dumped publication date, log date and database title for all log articles from the blog’s database into file2
Processed file2 above to obtain the full url matched with corresponding log date for all log articles
Merged file1 and file2 on log date ¹ so that each logline is matched with the full url of the article that contains it
Using the output of the above, I ran directly a script that generates the needed sql query ² to replace the old link with the new but for your convenience I also dumped to a separate file the exact mapping old link next to new link for all lines, so that all you have to do is find the old link in there and take from the same line its corresponding new link: oldnewloglinks.tar.gz.

The above archive covers log lines up to the end of April 2020 (as the new logs were already up by then) and includes both #ossasepia and #eulora logs as those are published as articles on my blog. For logs of other chans (e.g. #trilema), the mapping rules might be different. For loglines from May 2020, there’s only one article for each month (see the logs category), so you can easily get the appropriate new link for those too, if you need them (the line number is used as anchor on purpose, so that there is direct correspondence there, to make this sort of update easier). In principle, to the extent that other loggers are/were in sync with mine – and this is something you can spend way too much time on, to check! – you can use the above to update those links too – simply replace the logs.ossasepia.com with the other logger’s url and find the correct mapping anyway, though you’ll have a hell of a time to find and then correct errors caused by the smallest out of sync.

Just in case you haven’t yet messed up anything important enough to have gotten already the habit of backups – do remember to do a backup of whatever it is you plan to change *before* rushing to change it!

join -1 1 -2 2 <(sort -k1 file1.txt) <(sort -k2 file2.txt) [↩]
E.g. update yourblog_posts set post_content=replace(post_content, ‘ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Apr-2020#1025541’, ‘ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Apr-2020#1025541’);[↩]

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June 12, 2020

Eulorossa Animata

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 3:00 pm

Having previously acquired more limbs than they knew what to do with, my Euloran hopefuls discovered this week the wonders of moving bits and bobs about but they are really so excited with it all that they tend to have a hard time keeping it all – as in all parts of own self – together! Given that this week’s disentangling of the poorly documented ball of mismatched formats, silent fails, different conventions and unstated expectations started with exploding hopefuls to the 4 corners of the world and sending on occasion various limbs to orbit the moon too, the current careful-movement-while-keeping-it-all-reasonably-together is marked nevertheless as a glorious achievement and amazing ~~feet~~feat! And to document it all for future reference (and current unloading of its weight ¹ ), here’s how it all went, reading it again from this week’s notes:

Everything You Thought You Knew about Skeletons Turns Out to Be Wrong

My earlier reservations regarding cal3d’s “skeleton” format proved to be even underdeveloped and overly optimistic! Simply adding some weights to the meshes (hence, triggering the *use* of the skeleton file for something other than just ensuring-that-cal3d-doesn’t-crash ² ) resulted in my carefully constructed hopeful being literally blown to bits all over Eulora’s blue skies, fair plains and even dubious undergrounds.

At first I just sighed and read again the scant documentation of the format but that didn’t reveal anything new. Then I checked and re-checked and otherwise redone with pen and paper in hand all those calculations involved, with quaternions and transformations and assorted “relative” this or “local that”. Out of all this I got practice with quaternions for sure but otherwise not a clue as to the problem, nor any help with solving it: the format says “rotation/translation to bring a vertex from model space into bone space” and so my file has, for each and every damned bone but the result is still a bunch of scattered hopes of any hopeful; the format says “relative translation/rotation to parent bone” and that’s exactly what my script calculates and spits into that .xsf file very carefully with all attending tags and quotes and whatnots but the result is STILL a scattered mess that looks more like a hopeless than like a hopeful. Then I read the Cal3d code where the skeleton is used and being rather unfamiliar otherwise with the beast facing me this time, it all seemed to match the description: yes, it transformed indeed as stated, the vertices from model space to bone space and the bones relative to their parents so then why and how come and what in the name of all that’s sane in the world (little, I know) makes it end up with such a mess? So I started experimenting with the simplest possible skeleton and positions to make absolutely sure that it wasn’t something wrong in my calculations just throwing everything about – and indeed, it wasn’t that the calculations were wrong but rather that Cal3D clearly had a different interpretation or use for them than what I expected.

Having quite exhausted above all the code-docs-and-empirical solutions at hand (or at least those not requiring more coding than worth doing just for testing), there wasn’t anything left at this stage than to read more on the wider topic, since the docs of Cal3d held nothing else and I was still clearly missing some crucial bit of information. Not that there was any clue as to *what* to read or where to even start with it but then again, if there were clues, it wouldn’t be such a problem so where would the mess even be in that anymore? So I read again some more on all those “stages” that computer graphics afficionados are so very fond of and yes, what do you know – the trouble turns out to be that idiotic compartmentalizing approach that results in each stage of the graphics pipeline having its *own* conventions and notions as to what is what, without explicitly stating them either, since it’s everyone within their own happily recreated village-bubble in there and therefore “everyone knows what it’s supposed to mean”, of course.

I’ll spare you the details of all that reading and go straight to the solution: for the problem at hand, the crucial missing bit was that the “skeleton” at animation time is *not* about “where and how to position meshes to make this creature” but rather about how to *deform* the *already-positioned meshes* when a part (or the whole) moves. And so those translations and rotations (both relative to parent AND local) are NOT at all meant to describe the bone’s *position* or orientation, no! They are meant to describe instead *deformations* that are chained on top of those of the parent, and nothing else! So in this sense there is really no bone at all, not even an articulation, just a bunch of hierarchical deformations (and this explains just *why* indeed, any “bone” can affect ANY vertex in fact) fitted so that they are enough to describe the desired sequences of movements for all the relevant animations of that creature, that’s it. The whole pretense of “bones” and “articulations” and “parent bone” whatever is just a way to refer to it so that it’s “more intuitive”, nevermind that this sort of half-baked analogy *also* triggers all sorts of unhelpful “intuitive” stupid and so it’s worse than anything. Instead of being mentioned as a footnote explanation or sidelined and treated as the sort of crutch that it is, it’s so entrenched as to not allow discussion in any other terms. And moreover, it also gets further “help” by means of all those blender-like tools that “support” then the trouble it’s born out of and the trouble it creates down the line, of course ³.

Having thus realised that my whole .xsf file was basically wrong, the next step was to figure out what then should the “right” file even be. And what do you know – since I failed to do “what everyone does”, I also fail to have their problems! Because didn’t you know it, the “rigging” aka “fitting a skeleton inside a model” is a complicated problem and a terrible headache. Well, so it is, but for once… not for me! If it weren’t for Cal3d crashing without a skeleton file, I would not even *need* that file really and moreover one could directly define the fitting hierarchy of deformations for each animation since in the end it’s quite conceivable this might work for the best. As it is though, I have to fill the skeleton file – form filling brought to code, aren’t you happy to hear it? – pretty much with 0 everywhere since yes, when “not moving”, there’s …no deformation required anywhere, what surprise ⁴.

Sure, one could note here that a more useful approach would then be perhaps to *actually* use the skeleton to properly define the shape by deforming an overall blob in which the bones are embedded. While this sounds rather interesting to me, it also seems not exactly high priority right now nor all that quick to get to the point where it’s useful so for now at least I’ll stick to my existing meshes, skeletons and models, looking instead for the way to define working animations *for them*, as they are. At least step one is finally working as expected: make the .xsf file the space-waster that Cal3d expects with no rotations nor translations (basically simply the *hierarchy* of bones is all the information in there) and the hopeful is once again back to its expected shape, itching to move already.

How Do You Put on Weights?

The whole shtick of “skeletal animation” is that the above mentioned hierarchical set of deformations apply differently to *every vertex* of the darned model. Nevermind mesh and such high levels of looking at the stuff, here we are back again at vertex level and staring at the weirdest question: how do you put on weight again? I mean: feeding vertices in the hope that they figure out as a result the best weight to put on for themselves is unlikely to help, so a different approach has to be found. The first naive approach may very well be to consider simply that all the vertices of one mesh are stuck with the corresponding bone and therefore are simply influenced by that – even possibly to different degrees depending on the distance from the bone. This naivety is quickly shot down by the practicality of inflexible requirements: while each vertex may have any number of weights attached (aka: it can use ANY number of the deformations available anywhere), the sum of weights has to add up to 1 – under penalty from CS/Cal3d implementation which rules silently and undocumentedly but reliably in practice that failure to provide the full 1 means pulling on that vertex to the origin (presumably some additional translation into the origin, default values ftw). So a vertex can use only one deformation but use it fully or it can use a weighted combination of any specific set of deformations it picks. How to pick then?

One dubious advantage of the additional reading forced by the previous part of this adventure is that I got also all sorts of stuff noted down. Among such stuff, there were precisely some approaches to “skinning” as the whole dance of weighing vertices and other imponderables is called when you want to signal you are from that village as opposed to one of the other villages involved. And among those, I recalled a promising non-linear method that took into account the angles formed by a point on the surface of the mesh with the 2 ends of the bone in the mesh: supposedly this non-linear method is great at bending the mesh without creating known troubles such as collapsing joints and/or “candy wrapper” (when it gets twisted). Re-reading that paper with an idea to implement that bit revealed several mistakes (e.g. a formula has plus on some pages and minus on others though it’s meant to be minus really, everywhere) but at least I had something to use so I went with it: for each vertex of a mesh, my script calculates the angles with the ends of the bone and then decides accordingly on which end has what weight for that specific vertex.

Even with the simplest approach that I could find, the whole thing was far from clear. The main lack of clarity is what to do when the “end” that supposedly influences the vertex has no bone starting from it since that means effectively no way to specify deformations for *that*. For now I took the cheap and easy way everywhere, since those are anyway both early days and things that can be done at any later point when there is a working client and all the rest: if there are children on that end, the weight gets split equally among all of them; if not, it gets piled on the other end since it can’t be just “lost”, what else can I do.

In Which Cal3D Silently Refuses to Load Animations (and the client misbehaves some more).

This unexpected cherry on top of everything else was quite the illustration of unhelpful error messages. Having finally gotten *some* way to define an animation and a way to feed the right skeleton and to weigh each vertex and so on, I wrote the script to spit out the whole thing into the .xml that was supposedly just what Cal3D wanted to read from. This part is always annoying in that the slightest oversight (a space in some places!) means silent “failed to read” the file and then good luck figuring out where or what or why is wrong. So yeah, Cal3D refuses to eat it and then I spend quite some time going with a fine comb through it all to find just what does it choke on – nothing was wrong, nothing to choke on, everything fine, welcome to a fresh round of making sense of nonsense.

For sanity’s sake, I’ll jump to the solution this time too – it turned out that despite its claims to happily eat either the xml or the binary formats for all its files, in fact Cal3D has a soft spot for binary animation files and will NOT eat their corresponding xml versions at all (while it does eat meshes and skeletons in xml or in binary, no problem). Why? What do animations have so special and moreover why can’t it SAY so, plainly? Eh, such are the questions to which knowing the answers won’t help you any. So forget about it and dig out instead that converter that at least happily works, get it into the full chain otherwise since it was meant to be used anyway in production ⁵ and then watch the hopeful bobbing up and down, even doing a sort of (rather rigid) bowing of sorts and what not.

Before moving on to more interesting things, I’ll still note for the record here that the client further misbehaves since it quite forces that “origin of model should be at its legs” – it’s not just the rotation but the more important fact that the whole “on ground” and “falling” assumes that! So if the origin of the model is in its middle, as soon as you try to move it, it will… fall! I don’t have the words in this language to fully describe this stupid but there it is and so once again, models are at least for now (since I don’t quite want to spend the time to hunt this down throughout the whole client) again with the origin at the bottom. And this is still not enough since then …they get some parts underground, sigh. This might possibly have to do with yet another sticky-tape-solution a la PS, the “leg length” invention but I haven’t looked at it this week.

Keeping It All Together

Having finally sorted out a whole working animation meant that all there was left was the tricky bit: how to create animations cheaply, for all and any hopeful that may be blessed with moving ability? Cheaply turns out to be cheap really: just pick a duration, a number of frames and then some offsets for translations and rotations at each bone, calculate everything, write it down and be done with it. In the end this is anyway what happens really, if meanwhile I did do a tiny amount of tweaking, having started to notice what is “too much” and what sort of things movement may require. And so my whole set of scripts got a brand new step added, for generating animations – it even generates 2 of them for each model, one for “idle” and one for “walk” (worth noting here that one can easily *mix* any number of animations simply from cal3d/client otherwise). Nevertheless, the thing to be had *this cheaply* is indeed quite clunky and the trouble has at least 2 roots: one is indeed the weights attachment and the other is, arguably, the transformations itself.

From the previous reading around again, I even know that there are basically 2 main approaches to this, the so-called FK and IK, standing for direct kinematics and inverse kinematics, respectively. Essentially FK focuses on how to chain deformations so that the result down the line fits a movement at root and/or somewhere in the middle, while IK focuses on what should the deformations be in order to obtain in/at the end a plausible transition from an initial position to a final one. One can even conceivably go one step further back and change the “skeleton” for animation, since indeed, there’s no need for it to be stuck to whatever was used to generate a model – arguably static pose is less demanding than movement and there’s no reason why one couldn’t add exactly as many deformations as one wants, after all. None of those has any very cheap solutions that I’m aware of so far though and I rather think the whole thing *can* wait really, since it’s all a matter of what values to put in each of those files, but in the end it’s still the same files and the same pipeline anyway.

Why Is Screen Recording So Difficult?

While I haven’t really figured out a passable answer to that question, the question itself is a new acquisition for me – it came as I was trying to make a recording of a moving hopeful to illustrate all those words here and I found out that imagemagick apparently would do it only by taking screenshots and then stringing them together for horrible results, while other “recommended” linux “great options” either don’t work on my setup, are not available or will do a shitty job of it anyway. At any rate, after the “easy” part of recording that took way, way more than I thought it can ever take, I finally got something to work and so have a look at 2 hopefuls from the Gen6 set, both in “idle” and in “walking” mode (basically the moves back/forth and the sharp/full turns are when I turn them with the controls, while the rest of “movement” comes from the animations – the walk animation for instance has a gentle, small angle rotation in it too, a bit like looking left and right of sorts). Should have added perhaps “pessima” to the title, looking now at those animations again but anyways, here are 2 recordings (.ogv format) of the first moving hopefuls to grace Euloran soil:

recording hopeful 1
recording hopeful 2

One of those days – and perhaps before I die, too – I’ll figure out some way to cleanup messes-that-I-didn’t-even-make-myself without all the bitterness that seeps through at times for it being such a repeated and seemingly neverending experience. So far I figured out only how to laugh at it (and that took a lot of years to learn anyway) – but I do start getting ideas as to what a solution to this might look like, indeed. [↩]
Yes, absent skeleton file or having an invalid skeleton file causes cal3d to crash taking with it the whole client too. The issue is “documented” as in there are comments throughout CS code about it. What, did you expect anything more than that?[↩]
Note that this is not just one tangent I could easily go into from here. It’s a whole bunch of spiky tangents that I’d much rather use as tenderizers already.[↩]
I suppose one could perhaps attempt to introduce here some deformations to smooth for instance those strangulating connections between bones – the trouble though is that all those will feed in further down throughout any moves too, basically the effects cascade and it’s unclear at the moment how simple or complex it would be to getting something better from it. And moreover, since those deformations are performed every time the model is rendered, any additions here carry a performance penalty. Not so sure why would incurring this penalty make more sense than just adjusting the vertices to the desired rest position from the start, presuming that the transformations are known/some method to calculate them is found.[↩]
The binary files that the converter spits from the xml are half the size or even smaller. The reason why xml has been used throughout this time is that the binary format is not documented and so the only reasonably cheap way to know what should go where is to use & write the xml files, then run the converter if/when desired, then load them into the client/cal3d.[↩]

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June 5, 2020

The Bitcoin Foundation 2014-2020

Filed under: TMSR — Diana Coman @ 3:16 pm

The Bitcoin Foundation (also styled TBF or tbf) was created on 22 October 2014 by TMSR’s ¹ founder and leader, Mircea Popescu, who defined its minimal structure, made a seeding donation of 10 Bitcoin and offered the 2 chair positions with full decision power and responsibilities to Shane Kinney (mod6) and Ben Vulpes (ben_vulpes), who happily accepted. Four days later, Juraj Variny (jurov) took on the role of Treasurer ² for TBF. Throughout the whole interval, jurov kept the treasurer position. Mod6 kept his co-chair position until April 2020 when he stepped down and was replaced by jurov. Ben_vulpes remained nominally a co-chair throughout the interval although he stopped being actively involved in any way somewhere in 2019 or earlier ³.

As the logs of those early days attest, there was significant public support for the new foundation and this support materialised quickly through donations of bitcoin, signed reference code, development and testing work. A charter was drawn up by mod6 ⁴ and discussed in the forum within days ⁵. According to the archives of TBF, there was a flurry of activity initially, focusing on patching the bitcoin codebase and setting up a place (the mailing list), format (initially plain patches, eventually vpatches) and clear process for receiving, checking and integrating patches to the code. The first 10.1747 BTC donation was received in December 2014 and recorded in the first treasury statement. The same month, a declaration of sovereignity ⁶ was published as well, setting out TBF in the wider context of the #bitcoin-assets channel and stating TBF to be the intended recipient of a taxation requirement “of 0.1% or a hundred thousand satoshi per full Bitcoin realised” ⁷. Over the next months, code patching and testing proceeded quickly and V as well as its implementation were developed as well. The monthly “state of the bitcoin address” (SOBA) communications noted the need for more people to be involved but did not set out any plans to find new contributors.

One year later, by the beginning of 2016, the SOBAs stopped mentioning even the need for more people involved and the activity as reflected in the mailing list archives seems greatly reduced by comparison with the previous year. The SOBAs focus exclusively on the code work done mainly by mod6, asciilifeform and trinque. Nevertheless, donations are still received during this time, with another 10 BTC recorded in the treasury statement for March 2016. There are no expenses recorded nor do any of the SOBA mention any need or plans for attracting new contributors in any capacity. This trend continues during the following years ⁸, although as early as 2016, the problems and the lack of growth are explicitly mentioned in the forum, alongside concrete suggestions made by Mircea Popescu as to potential avenues for TBF to pursue for growth and exposure:

mircea_popescu: incidentally : it occurs to me we might be well advised to run an advertising campaign along the lines of “No University in the world can rival the Republic’s own STEM research lab”. would this be something teh foundation might consider sponsoring, ben_vulpes mod6 ? and any of the marketing minded fellows want to make the website ?

mircea_popescu: mod6 the main consideration there, strategically, would be that while foundation’s conservative finances are certainly the path to victory, the absence of any and all expenditures is probably by now becoming a drag – why’d someone donate his tax dues when the coin is just going to sit ? he might as well donate it mentally and let it sit in his own pocket. sooner or later something will hafta be done, or else why bother. something like this has the advantage that it’s an entirely uninvesting expenditure (exact opposite of what the faux foundation did with its “hiring” of nsa asset gavin andresen), it commits the foundation to ~nothing and can be discontinued at any point. it’s good to be able to say you know, here, we have a track record of usefulness, trust us.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger the problem isn’t “founding os projects” but quite orthogonal to that : ustards have a significant mental problem whereby they imagine they will separate funding and activity. the existence of a so called “foundation” is the usual macula of this sort of idiocy, much like chancre is the mark of syphilis.

mircea_popescu: btw are you foundation people gonna make a prize gala or something ?
mod6: gala? last we were discussing some sort of university advertising
mircea_popescu: hey i’m just an idea guy
mod6: and we had some ideas regarding the same, but didn’t come to any specific conculsions.
mircea_popescu: nething public ?
mod6: not as of yet. working on it.

mircea_popescu: mod6 incidentally, it occurs to me : it might be a good idea for the foundation to have some kind of policy whereby people interested can donate servers ? exactly like freenode, in theory, except they fuck it up so uttertly in practice it’s not even funny. but their being retarded doesn’t mean we can’t do it right.

mircea_popescu: is this something the foundation may maybe consider ? open us an embassy in beijing, hire a chick to sit there 4 hours/day or such ?

By 2018, TBF’s failure to grow and matter in the world is pointed out in plain terms and the very goal of the foundation is discussed as well:

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855821 << imo the only limiting factor in foundation finance atm is the twin perception that foundation doesn't need more money nor has anything useful to do with it if it had more money.

mircea_popescu: the ~only~ thing you get out of “removing obstacles” is another linus debacle, whereby you belabour for however many decades under the false flag of an unredeemable asshole. he will sell you out, and pretend he’s doing you a favour.

hanbot: asciilifeform actually in principle i very much am interested. i’m not sure i fully grasp what it’s supposed to do beyond making trb available tho’…if “fruit”‘s so far unsatisfactory, what’s good fruit look like?
mircea_popescu: hanbot you ever heard of stanford university ?
hanbot: surely
mircea_popescu: stanford university exists because a rich dood took some money out of his pocket, stuffed it in a bag and wrote “Stanford university” on it.
mircea_popescu: however, it ~actually exists~, today. plenty of people interact with it that might not even have heard of the douche in question or his insufferable drowned son
mircea_popescu: or w/e the fuck happened there.
mircea_popescu: this means, to live. if stanford university today were nothing more than an entry in the rich guy’s lawyer’s workledger, it’d not live. as it is, it lives.
mircea_popescu: (and, amusingly enough, the founding donation was a whole of a lot less than 10 bitcoin, also.)

mircea_popescu: i don’t give a shit how. sponsor a sports team, for all i care. god knows the charter’s written openly enough to not get in anyone’s way who wants to do things.

The foundation’s charter is also discussed in detail and this discussion apparently needs to be linked and read again since only recently there was again contention regarding the need for any outreach from TBF:

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856375 << let's give it a public reading, then. it says : "1. Bitcoin is a far reaching innovation with effects unknown and unknowable. 2. It is altogether probable that its effects will conflict with all currently established human conventions. 3. Maintaining the core values as established by the original author in the form of a reference implementation that is lightweight, coherent and cruft-free in face of this conflict requires deliberate effort involving multiple people, which in turn require management and guidance. 4. ``THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION'' will endeavour to provide these, while fostering community growth and development, under the general principle that if and when any other thing conflicts with Bitcoin, that other thing must either be discontinued or amended in such a way as to no longer conflict with Bitcoin." mircea_popescu: now, when and how did 3 kill 4 ? mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856377 << well, the way i read the 1-2-3-4 progression from above is that "it is focused but not limited to trb, supposed to outreach from it". the "focused" part is imo not in dispute. the "limited to" part, though, maybe ? diana_coman: yes, it's better stated that way: focused but not limited to trb mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856381 << kinda the idea though -- if uncharted territory stays uncharted... well ? what are we, the folk living across from zanzibar, waiting for indonesians to come over and discover it, because it's easier for them to cover 5k miles than for us 50 ?

By the end of 2018 and throughout 2019, several attempts to revive TBF as a growing and visible entity fail and the entrenched opposition or incompatibility of those involved to the very type of activities required by the notion of “foundation” comes more plainly to light. While the whole logs of those days are worth a read as they pack a lot of relevant discussion, a few highlights would be those:

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776346 << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding. Then again growth is hard. a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then?

mircea_popescu: not even entirely sure what precisely we’d be missing if there was no foundation at all, right off.
mod6: Alright. If we disband it, what do we do with the coins?
mircea_popescu: exact same as so far, i reckon. winge and whinge and wring our wrists and worry about it.
mod6: I didn’t mean to piss ya off with my comments above, Sir.
mod6: Maybe it is time to give someone else a turn at the helm of the Foundation, or move to not have a foundaiton at all.
mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that’s not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn’t manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity.
mod6: This is true, I kicked in 10 BTC of my own, even.
mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick.
mircea_popescu: we can kick it as high as we want, no wings, no life.
mircea_popescu: if i have to run a balance sheet putting the active on one side and passive=delayed-keccak-adoption on the other side, it’s coming out in the red as it stands.

hanbot: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-29-oct-2018#2491231 << not even so much interest, i was more or less drafted. i'm happy to do whatever i can, but i see multiple issues here i don't in any case want to take your seat, and honestly i don't think "outreach" is a splinter of the foundation's operation, fit for a single person. afaik it's the core of what the thing was supposed to do, and the core of its failure to date, and given a potentially unbounded budget and a by now insanely oversaturated market, i can't imagine anything less than hundreds of hours/week is going to save it. i don't have the hours to make it my sole concern, but i do have some to help out. i think it'd be a shame to kinda decoupage some tasks here and there to a floundering ship. as much as i'd like to see it sail, seems obvious to me that here and there won't cut it at all. mircea_popescu: it's certainly true my hope lo so many years ago was that the foundation will provide the basic material (people, expertise, history, and so on) upon which to construct these days a republican diplomatic service rather than a library.

mircea_popescu: it’s infuriating to see movements a la “oh, ima hijack this foundation thingee to crash your standards process”, whether meant as that or not.

mircea_popescu: maybe that’s the right move here, transform the badly mismanaged foundation, have it start a college. Something’s gotta be done about that, too, i dun recall right off but there’s however many six figure dubaloos stuck there since last decade.
diana_coman: I’d love to.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-10-03#1939760 << oh, well, i figure the people not calling won the stalemate with the people not making a foundation -- so no further use for it. if we re-do it later it'll be a different number for a real foundation.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-08#1942903 << because he has exactly none of the skillsets involved in running anything even remotely like a useful foundation, and no interest in acquiring them (or perhaps no capacity for acquiring them) as proven by years of practical measurements. this aren't fucking onorifics, i dunno how to put it in some form comprehensible to the morgraine fans. these are opportunities to do work. "doing something" is not doing work. if the thing dun work -- you've not been working, there's no subjective-standard basis for arguing this, "oh look how much i sweated" or anything like that. shit gotta work for activity to be called work. mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-08#1942906 << don't be an idiot, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-31#1932784 not to even look into "oh but mp, foundation didn't actually have to do anything, as per my inept read of its charter" lulz. what, it says "emplace noads" in there now ? ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-08 21:51:32 asciilifeform: nao asciilifeform is no one in tbf. but will be sad if it comes to be the case that there is no tbf to fund emplacements of noades, curation of the ref. trb (incl. mod6's very fine build system) . ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-31 19:15:27 asciilifeform: will put in l0gz, ftr : the only nodes that gave >100 blox of the 46115 :
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-08 21:47:31 asciilifeform: incidentally i dun agree w/ mp’s verdict that tbf is somehow broken (aside from 1 of the 2 chairs having gone awol.) charter reads, clearly, ‘This charter establishes the existence of a virtual organization whose mission is to maintain the Bitcoin reference implementation.’ this was carried out .
mp_en_viaje: “oh, it’ll be sad to not have a thing we don’t have, to do things it didn’t do anyway that i just argued i tshouldn’t have been doing in any case”.
mp_en_viaje: what is this!
mp_en_viaje: yes, it’d have been perfectly fine to say, YEAR+ AGO WHEN THIS CAME UP, “well mp, maybe we don’t do other things, but we have a donations program that’s growing an average 0.2% per month, predicated on building trb nodes, which we do built, at the rate of ~one per quarter”.
mp_en_viaje: this — was not said, then. don’t fucking cpome to me with your insulting infantile narrative bullshit today, as if i’ve fucking forgotten, they sat on ass and sucked each other dicks about how important they are for bitcoin “Because mp says so” while bitcoin went exactly by them, like all other plowing flies. but like EXACTLY.
mp_en_viaje: this ground was covered already, and in the exact terminology, of “your whole relevancy to this space is my say so, you’ve built nothing out of it, and if tomorrow i do not say you do not fucking exist, idiots”.
mp_en_viaje: attempts to re-approach this without addressing the central fucking problem will result in what pantsuitism always results in — ima fucking cut the involved heads and move on.
mp_en_viaje: no outreach = no foundation. forget about it.

The closure of TMSR in March 2020 did not result in any clarification of TBF’s status. So far, there’s neither clear closure for TBF as a part of the now non-existing TMSR nor a clean restart as an independent entity unencumbered by past failures and unresolved issues. As mod6 stepped down and ben_vulpes remains so far only nominally a co-chair as far as it can be discerned by any public records, jurov took the co-chair position and is aiming by his own statement to “carry on” and maintain the same narrow focus on the code base.

At least so far, there is no public sign of any consideration of the full history nor addressing of any of the points raised in all the forum discussions linked above ⁹. There was however a repetition of the argument that the charter doesn’t include outreach as such, without any rebuttal of the answers to that as they have been already given and can be read in the logs linked above. The interpretation of the “fostering community growth and development” part of the charter remains also to be inferred from future events, as is the actual re-definition of TBF and possibly of the very term “foundation” from its title.

TMSR stands for The Most Serene Republic, meanwhile closed down; see also the articles in my tmsr category, the log summaries and the full record of the logs on trilema.com.[↩]
Here’s the content of the treasurer contract in full:

Hash: SHA1

..::[ CONTRACT FOR BITCOIN FOUNDATION ACCOUNTING SERVICES ]::..

0x0] INTRODUCTION ; RESPONSIBILITIES

DATE: OCTOBER 26, 2014

PARTIES:

The virtual organization known as “THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” [R.1], as
represented by #bitcoin-otc entities mod6 and ben_vulpes, hereinafter The
Foundation.

Juraj ”jurov” Variny, as identified by GPG fingerprint:
BBB0 A999 5003 7551 F533 850A 677A BD62 D0AE E7D7

WHEREAS:

“THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” seeks a Treasurer to secure The Foundation’s
assets, and issue monthly statements of receipts and expenditures.

jurov is a member in good standing of the #bitcoin-otc Web of Trust,
capable of and willing to secure Foundation assets and issue monthly
statements of The Foundation’s receipts and expenditures.

The parties hereby solemnly commit to the following:

“THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” will accept donations in the form of Bitcoin
only, contributed anonymously to address:

1FundZy7m7b8begbh9haCguKJcAdFopRJ9 (The Foundation Address),

an address controlled exclusively by jurov.

jurov will remit Bitcoin as unanimously directed by both directors to
addresses of their choice.

jurov will prepare and issue statements each month no later than the 5th of
each month, detailing all receipts to and expenditures from The Foundation
Address.

For his services, jurov will be paid 1% of The Foundation’s receipts up to
a 1 Bitcoin maximum per calendar year.

0x1) CLAUSES

Either The Foundation or jurov may cancel this contract by GPG-signed
notice, no less than 25 days before the next statement’s due date. After
the Treasurer issues his final statement, he will remit the balance of
secured Foundation funds to an address of the Foundation’s choice.

Signed: B71EADAF, D2D031DA, D0AEE7D7.

[↩]
If anyone has the exact date on this, please let me know in the comments, as I wasn’t able to find a clear announcement as such.[↩]
The charter in full:

..::[ THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION: CHARTER ]::..

0x0] INTRODUCTION

THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION

ESTABLISHED: OCTOBER 22, 2014

CO-CHAIRS:
Shane “mod6” Kinney
(identified by GPG fingerprint):
027A 8D7C 0FB8 A166 4372 0F40 7217 05A8 B71E ADAF

Ben “ben_vulpes” Vulpes
(identified by GPG fingerprint):
4F79 0794 2CA8 B89B 01E2 5A76 2AFA 1A9F D2D0 31DA

This charter establishes the existence of a virtual organization whose
mission is to maintain the Bitcoin reference implementation.

0x1] BACKGROUND ; SCOPE ; OBJECTIVES

Bitcoin is a far reaching innovation with effects unknown and unknowable.

It is altogether probable that its effects will conflict with all currently
established human conventions.

Maintaining the core values as established by the original author in the
form of a reference implementation that is lightweight, coherent and
cruft-free in face of this conflict requires deliberate effort involving
multiple people, which in turn require management and guidance.

“THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” will endeavour to provide these, while fostering
community growth and development, under the general principle that if and
when any other thing conflicts with Bitcoin, that other thing must either be
discontinued or amended in such a way as to no longer conflict with Bitcoin.

0x2] GOVERNANCE

“THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” is governed by unanimous decision of its two
co-chairs.

At any point during the lifetime of the foundation, either co-chair may
announce his decision to step down, through the publication of a GPG signed
document to that effect. It is the responsibility of the outgoing chair to
announce his retirement at least six months in advance of circumstances that
make his continuation as chair unfeasible.

Consequently, the two co-chairs will unanimously appoint a third, and for a
period of six months the newly appointed chair and the remaining chair will
govern through unanimous voting, except should they be unable to reach
agreement the remaining chair together with the outgoing chair may decide.

0x3] ACCOUNTING ; DONATIONS ; EXPENDITURES

“THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” will accept anonymous Bitcoin donations
only. “THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION” will publish monthly reports detailing its
intake and expenditure. Donations collected are to be spent as decided by
the co-chairs.

The co-chairs promise and warrant to only expend the Foundation’s Bitcoins
on that which is necessary to achieve its objectives.

The Foundation’s chairs shall retain the services of a Treasurer to issue
monthly statements and secure Foundation assets. The Foundation shall
publish an address under that Treasurer’s exclusive control to which
interested parties may donate Bitcoin.

In the event of expenditure, the co-chairs shall instruct the Treasurer as
to the quantity of Bitcoin to send, the address to which the Bitcoins shall
be sent, and a description of the foundations goals in expending said funds.
Every month, from these authorizing notes and transactions inbound to the
Foundation address, the Treasurer shall generate a Statement of Account
detailing receipts and expenditures.

0x4] LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY

Neither “THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION”, the present or any future co-chairs, or
any other person or entity in any way associated with “THE BITCOIN
FOUNDATION” assume any liability for any losses suffered or alleged to
have been suffered by any third party as a result of the execution of this
Agreement.

Signed: B71EADAF, D2D031DA.

[↩]
asciilifeform doesn’t see the point of a charter for the foundation and considers it “cruft” though he didn’t voice this opinion when the request for a charter was initially made:

asciilifeform: mod6: why we need the charter thing, again ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what can it hurt ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what can it hurt << cruft

[↩]
In full:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA512

BITCOIN DECLARATION OF SOVEREIGNITY ;
PROPER VENUE FOR ALL FILINGS ;
DISPOSITION OF TAXATION
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–
Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (FreeBSD)
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=MqEV
—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–
————– next part ————–
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA512

Title: BITCOIN DECLARATION OF SOVEREIGNITY ; PROPER VENUE FOR ALL FILINGS ; DISPOSITION OF TAXATION

In #bitcoin-assets, November 8th, 2014.

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one person to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with the human herd, and to assume among the powers of the world the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature entitle them, a modicum of respect to their own intelligence requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident : that no men nor women are created, but born ; that nothing ever is or could be equal to any other thing ; that each man and each woman are sovereign entities and the sole sovereign entities ; that sovereigns and sovereigns alone are entitled to anything they may take for themselves, but nothing more ; that “rights” are a poor substitute of liberties much like railroad tracks are poor substitutes of wings, for on wings one may soar and on his liberty one may soar, but on the railroad tracks of alleged rights one can but trudge ; that things made not born have no liberties, nor are nor can ever become sovereign, but must remain subjected to the will and disposition of those sovereign in the world and limited by their rights as granted by their sovereigns, like slave is limited by his chains and computer programs by their language.

To secure our liberty from the encroachment of virtual entities, devoid of substance, deriving their pretense to power from the pretense of consent, that is in the ideal a shameful subversion of the sacred principles of sovereignty and in fact absent, we find —

That whenever any one or any thing becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that things long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such nonsense, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Such has been the patient sufferance of the Internet ; and such is now the necessity which constrains us to reject the pretense to power of obsolete forms and fictions left over from a time long gone. The history of the present fiat governments of the world is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over us. To prove this, no facts shall be submitted, you may research on your own.

We, therefore, free and independent of any bond or link of loyalty or fealty, in #bitcoin-assets assembled, appealing to no one ; recognising nothing above and the whole world below us, do, in our own name, and by our own authority, solemnly publish and declare, that we are and of right ought to be free and independent ; that we are absolved from all allegiance to any entity, whether it styles itself a “crown” or a “state” or a “government” or however else ; and that all political connection between them and us is wholly imagined, by them ; and that as free and independent we have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which sovereigns may of right do.

For the support of this declaration we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred rating.

THEREFORE, it is established that the Web of Trust, the #bitcoin-assets deeds registrar and the channel itself are the proper venue for all filings, of whatever type and to whatever end, to be dealed with according to our laws and customs.

THEREFORE, it is established that any Bitcoin company, or trader or merchant or other entity deriving a worldly profit from the otherworldly workings of Bitcoin, is to pay a tax in sum of 0.1% or a hundred thousand satoshi per full Bitcoin realised, into the coffers of the Bitcoin Foundation ( http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/deed/9ULZPc7yeZ9fQEA1aZ73H6mcv1s2C4gYFAbNTb5urovj ) as the sole and complete public contribution that may be required of him ; that such payment satisfies the total burden of taxation upon him, and no further payments may be required, in any form nor for any reason or under any title or pretense, by anyone ; that the satisfaction of this obligation is a moral requirement, and outside of the oppinion of the sovereign people it will not be enforced.
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–
Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (FreeBSD)

iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUX71VAAoJEHIXBai3Hq2vTQoQAIkAdTYp/OoETfWwflqN5tEC
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3aqK4j8BTJhGDhNjHuL2
=WgF6
—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

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[↩]
Given recent discussion regarding taxation received or not by TBF, I’ll note here that there was at least one instance of taxation received although it was indeed as a result of the liquidation of a business rather than the success of it:

davout: jurov: can you give me a foundation address? foundation will be owed .1337 btc after the bitbet receivership is done

[↩]
By 2018 there are only a few experimental patches published and in 2020, there’s a whole argument made that the code should be left as it is, too.[↩]
Unless the addressing is meant to be this statement:

jurov: And I pay no heed to TMSR anymore, because it behaved to my clients worse than any government.

[↩]

Comments (11)

June 1, 2020

#eulora Logs for Jun 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:02 pm

feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2014/08/16/boxy-and-his-leaky-bottle/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Boxy and His Leaky Bottle	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2014/08/20/making-my-eulorian-cake-and-eating-it/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Making My Eulorian Cake and Eating It	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/13/the-barely-legible-and-slightly-bloody-diary-of-foxy-foxster-on-eulora-day-1/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Names, Pains, Curiosity and Deliberately Bad Maths (The Barely Legible and Slightly Bloody Diary of Foxy Foxster on Eulora – Day 1)	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/14/the-barely-legible-and-slightly-bloody-diary-of-foxy-foxster-on-eulora-day-2/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — When Cooking Is More Painful than Dying (The Barely Legible and Slightly Bloody Diary of Foxy Foxster on Eulora – Day 2)	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/22/godly-yellow-lemonade-loads-of-flotsam-and-horribly-bad-maths/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Godly Yellow Lemonade, Loads of Flotsam and Horribly Bad Maths	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/25/samovars-boulders-business-and-teleportation-all-in-a-few-days-work/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Samovars, Boulders, Business and Teleportation – All in a Few Days' Work	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/29/things-of-wonder-and-golden-pickaxes/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Things of Wonder and Golden Pickaxes	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/06/30/a-thing-to-be-treasured-or-the-secret-of-eulorian-samovars/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — A Thing to Be Treasured or the Secret of Eulorian Samovars	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/07/05/day-12-a-drunken-world-drunk-on-knowledge-that-is/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Day 12 A Drunken World Drunk on Knowledge That Is!	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/07/27/foxys-crafting-bot/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxy's Crafting Bot	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/07/31/solid-branches-in-empty-space-euloras-first-woman-made-satellite/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Solid Branches in Empty Space (Eulora's First, Woman-Made, Satellite)	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/08/03/more-offensive-than-ever-euloran-cookbook-v1-1/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — More offensive than ever – Euloran Cookbook v1.1	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/08/14/a-data-diet-of-wooly-mushrooms-and-elusive-purple-snails/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — A Data Diet of Wooly Mushrooms and Elusive Purple Snails	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/08/26/a-lotus-by-any-other-names-a-harlot/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — A Lotus by Any Other Name's…a Harlot?	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/08/30/euloras-first-grade-how-to-get-a-skill-build-a-claim-make-your-own-grass-etc/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's First Grade How to Get a Skill, Build a Claim, Make Your Own Grass etc.	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/09/03/pulling-mushrooms-by-their-wooly-threads-and-other-disastrous-adventures/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Pulling mushrooms by their wooly threads and other disastrous adventures	[21:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/09/29/yo-moon-got-phases-nao/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Yo Moon, Got Phases Nao?	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/10/13/hic-sunt-flotsams-on-eulora-or-the-brand-new-foxymaps/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Hic Sunt Flotsams on Eulora (Or the Brand New Foxymaps)	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/10/22/the-unbearably-unknown-value-of-things-in-eulora/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Unbearably Unknown Value of Things in Eulora	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/11/16/foxybots-v1-2/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxybots v1.2	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/11/24/square-data-for-a-round-world/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Square Data for a Round World	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/12/14/foxybots-v1-3/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxybots v1.3	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/12/20/foxys-dismal-scribblings-on-euloran-exploration-data-or-truly-horrible-numbers/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxy's Dismal Scribblings on Euloran Exploration Data or Truly Horrible Numbers	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2015/12/28/euloran-cookbook-v1-2/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Euloran Cookbook V1.2	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/01/21/making-patterns-on-euloran-soil/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Making Patterns on Euloran Soil	[21:08]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/01/28/foxys-musings-on-click-slaves-vs-apprentices-and-their-choices/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxy's Musings on Click-Slaves vs Apprentices and Their Choices	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/03/01/coordinate-eulometry-or-tomb-of-the-dead-mollusc/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Coordinate Eulometry (or Tomb of the Dead Mollusc)	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/08/04/craft-table-tourism-with-foxybot-1-4/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Craft-Table Tourism with Foxybot 1.4	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/09/18/happy-1st-anniversary-foxybot/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Happy 1st Anniversary, Foxybot!	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2016/12/05/the-sentiments-of-grass/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Sentiments of Grass	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2017/01/23/ordinary-trouble-of-an-euloran-explorer/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Ordinary trouble of an Euloran explorer	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2017/02/24/basic-toolchain-for-blender-cal3d-crystal-space/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Basic toolchain for Blender – Cal3d – Crystal Space	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2017/04/13/bundling-with-foxybot/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Bundling with Foxybot	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2017/05/03/quest-for-the-crafty-noob/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Quest for the Crafty Noob	[21:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — RFC: Eulora's Communication Protocol (EuComms)	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2018/05/24/a-tiny-stab-at-a-little-pricing-problem/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — A Tiny Stab at a Little Pricing Problem	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2018/06/05/the-lack-of-dust-a-very-euloran-problem/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Lack of Dust – A Very Euloran Problem	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2018/06/10/chasing-the-elusive-euloran-quality/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Chasing the Elusive Euloran Quality	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2018/06/26/euloras-own-cr50/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Own CR50	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/03/03/inconsiderate-considerations-or-a-tiny-euloran-dataset-on-blueprints/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Inconsiderate Considerations or a Tiny Euloran Dataset on Blueprints	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/05/04/euloras-client-core-basic-docs/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Client Core – Basic Docs	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/05/27/euloras-client-core-the-dedicated-requester/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Client Core: The Dedicated Requester	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/06/11/eulora-client-hierarchy-of-data-draft/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora Client Hierarchy of Data Draft	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/06/30/notes-on-graphics-for-eulora/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Notes on Graphics for Eulora	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/08/the-rocky-moon-notes-on-graphics-for-eulora-ii/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Rocky Moon (Notes on Graphics for Eulora, II)	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/17/the-mirror-land-notes-on-graphics-for-eulora-iii/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Mirror Land (Notes on Graphics for Eulora, III)	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/07/24/naked-models-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-iv/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Naked Models (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, IV)	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/06/the-widgeting-paws-of-pointerism-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-v/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Widgeting Paws of Pointerism (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, V)	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/05/a-summers-summary-and-next-steps-in-eulora/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — A Summer's Summary and Next Steps in Eulora	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/14/eulora-client-data-hierarchy-v20/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora Client Data Hierarchy v2.0	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/27/pretty-petty-particles-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-vi/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Pretty Petty Particles (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, VI)	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/11/05/eulora-smg-taking-a-different-sort-of-stock/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora (S.MG) – Taking a Different Sort of Stock	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/06/cutting-through-the-tangles-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-vii/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Cutting through the Tangles (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, VII)	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/23/foxys-unshaded-skin-and-side-effects-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-viii/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Foxy's Unshaded Skin and Side Effects (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, VIII)	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/29/the-shady-business-with-shaders-in-cs-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-ix/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Shady Business with Shaders in CS (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, IX)	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/11/euloras-client-012b-and-deps/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Client 0.1.2b and Deps	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/13/notes-on-computer-graphics-a-map-of-sorts/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Notes on Computer Graphics – A Map of Sorts	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/14/notes-on-computer-graphics-formats-exporters-and-blendering/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Notes on Computer Graphics: Formats, Exporters and Blendering	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/16/crystalspace-creating-factories-and-meshes-setting-the-client-down/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — CrystalSpace: Creating Factories and Meshes, Setting the Client Down	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/21/de-facto-data-somethings-in-euloras-client/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — De Facto Data Somethings in Eulora's Client	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/31/euloras-default-island-sand-grass-rocks-and-nothing-else/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Default Island: Sand, Grass, Rocks and Nothing Else	[21:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/06/euloras-default-water-without-water/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora's Default Water without Water	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/11/no-atmos-in-the-atmosphere-euloras-defaults/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — No Atmos in the Atmosphere (Eulora's Defaults)	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/18/strutting-waving-and-skin-sharing-euloras-defaults/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Strutting, Waving and Skin Sharing (Eulora's Defaults)	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/04/no-bones-in-thy-skeleton-and-no-theory-in-thy-research/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — No Bones in Thy Skeleton and No Theory in Thy Research	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/17/shape-up-yer-polygons-eulora/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Shape Up Yer Polygons, Eulora!	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/24/spraying-mandelbrotian-graffiti-on-euloran-surfaces/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Spraying Mandelbrotian Graffiti on Euloran Surfaces	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/04/cyli-nder-and-other-meshes-on-a-stick/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Cyli N'Der and Other Meshes on a Stick	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/11/the-velvety-bloodsucker-the-twinheaded-dandy-and-other-euloran-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — The Velvety Bloodsucker, the Twinheaded Dandy and Other Euloran Hopefuls	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/silvery-flesh-on-twisting-bones-2nd-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Silvery Flesh on Twisting Bones: 2nd Parade of Hopefuls	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/colourfully-symmetrical-of-sorts-3rd-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Colourfully Symmetrical (of Sorts): 3rd Parade of Hopefuls	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/02/new-skins-for-fashionable-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — New Skins for Fashionable Hopefuls	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/05/disc-included-spelling-approximate/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Disc Included, Spelling Approximate	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/08/an-abundance-of-bones-4th-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — An Abundance of Bones: 4th Parade of Hopefuls	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/12/fashionable-hopefuls-a-bit-of-escher-under-the-skin/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Fashionable Hopefuls: A Bit of Escher under the Skin	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/13/fashionable-hopefuls-the-river-of-eyes/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Fashionable Hopefuls: the River of Eyes	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/14/fashionable-hopefuls-impressionistically-naive-and-slightly-surreal/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Fashionable Hopefuls: Impressionistically Naive and Slightly Surreal	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/15/fashionable-hopefuls-to-the-skies-and-outer-space/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Fashionable Hopefuls: To the Skies and Outer Space	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/15/fashionable-hopefuls-illustrated-trigonometry-with-a-side-of-turbulence/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Fashionable Hopefuls: Illustrated Trigonometry with a Side of Turbulence	[21:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/19/how-would-they-be-different-with-cavemans-drawings-by-computer/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — How Would They Be Different? With Caveman's Drawings by Computer	[21:24]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/21/illustrated-mirroring-and-collapsing-of-points/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Illustrated Mirroring and Collapsing of Points	[21:24]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/swarming-limbs-and-twisted-nets-5th-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Swarming Limbs and Twisted Nets: 5th Parade of Hopefuls	[21:24]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/12/eulorossa-animata/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulorossa Animata	[17:04]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/notes-upon-notes-and-comments-of-comments-for-now-and-forever-amen/ << Trilema S.MG — Notes upon notes and comments of comments, for now and forever, Amen.	[01:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/22/eulora-client-graphics-main-types-and-formats/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora Client Graphics: Main Types and Formats	[18:11]
diana_coman:	pokes sonofawit	[16:16]
diana_coman:	pokes sonofawitch again	[16:19]
Day changed to 2020-06-27
diana_coman:	!s help	[00:00]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[00:00]
diana_coman:	!s help	[00:10]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[00:10]
Day changed to 2020-06-28
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/28/eulora-client-data-hierarchy-finally-getting-there/ << Ossa Sepia Eulora — Eulora Client Data Hierarchy – Finally Getting There!	[18:05]

Comments (1)

Swarming Limbs and Twisted Nets: 5th Parade of Hopefuls

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 4:38 pm

I publish this early to make sure it’s not published late – the practice of course turned out less orderly than the theory, with some unexpected hiccups at rendering time ¹ meaning that I’m writing this while some of the seeds are still being rendered. Rather than force everything to wait for the full set though, I think it makes more sense to publish now a first archive (4.5G) since it contains anyway 16368 pictures (31 seeds * 2 symmetry options * 22 textures * 12 points combinations) and it can take a while to just go through them all, not even considering the couple of hours required to upload/download it anyway. I’ll update afterwards with the screenshots for the remaining seeds and hopefully also with at least one full set of combinations with the more demanding collapsing of points at minimum distance – for which I already have the skeletons and models made but they are waiting in the pipeline for a place on the rendering machine! In hindsight I should have possibly expected that the rendering will still be the bottleneck, no matter that the skeleton generation takes otherwise longer – it’s clearly the graphical part that I’m least prepared for (and keen about…) otherwise and overall, indeed.

Updated 3 June 2020: the archive with remaining seeds, 132 to 150 (“quick collapse”, 2.7G); another archive with the rendered models from one seed done with “slow collapse” for the full set of points+symmetry+textures. (151M).

For the record, here’s the list of changes and updates since last parade:

Fixed the uncovered errors at mirroring.
Choice between “quick collapsing” of points (based on first pair of points found with distance between them less than average) and “slow collapsing” of points (based on picking at every step the pair of points that are closest to one another so at minimum distance). The “c1” in the archive name stands for the quick collapsing (collapse first) while cmin stands for slow collapsing (collapse minimum).
Updated model generation to pick for each bone randomly one of the 2 existing meshes (one is cylinder-based, the other is egg-based) with a 50/50 chance for each. The cylinder shape is also changed to reduce the noisiness and especially the “floating” unconnected bits.
Updated list of textures with 3 textures taken out (2,3, and 7 from the list in the previous parade) and 12 textures added. The current total is 22 textures in use.
Changed the rendering so that the hopefuls are rotated by a different angle around each of the three axes. All three angles are obtained from the MT prng seeded with the texture number so that the rotations are distinct for each texture but the same across different seeds/symmetry options.
Refactored and various changes to the whole model generation chain to streamline it and allow the run of the different parts separately or in parallel where possible. As part and parcel of this, the skeleton generation now spits out also a plain text file, basically “smg format” of the skeleton in addition to the CS/Cal3d format so that any skeletons generated can be more easily reused for any models and/or otherwise further changed, as required. The steps from 0 to rendered hopeful are those: 1. mesh generation (currently only 2 meshes but after this refactoring, it can now easily be extended without requiring any further changes to next steps to use the outputs); 2. skeleton generation; 3. model generation (picking at random from the full list of meshes from 1 and setting them on skeletons from 2; 4. rendering (going through the full list of available models from 4 and the full list of textures, moving files where the client expects them, firing up/killing the client and taking screenshots).

Picked mostly by chance, accident and other happy preferences, the stars of this show include an almost-insect, a twisted arrow-head of sorts and possibly a dog-headed chicken:

For easy reference, here’s the full list of textures used for this parade:

Mostly still that pesky client that apparently is not that orderly within the range of meshes per second measured previously, ugh.[↩]

Comments (26)

#ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:10 am

trinque:	curious what you think will float CR as the world economy goes into the shitter?	[00:10]
whaack:	trinque: well coming from NYC myself I feel more comfortable being in an area with a much smaller population and a nearby body of water I can fish from as everything starts fall apart.	[01:20]
whaack:	starts to*	[01:23]
trinque:	suppose I'm not too motivated to subsist if it's truly "everything" that falls apart.	[04:52]
trinque:	whaack: more considering what happens to the tiny country if exports dwindle. I imagine the decrease in tourism is already having an effect.	[04:52]
trinque:	I don't expect it'll be everything falling apart though. Nobody currently protesting or on the street had much to do with economic activity in the first place	[04:53]
trinque:	"end of world" is what it sounds like when the suicidal have a problem with projection	[04:55]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I've been thinking it over and I would like to move out (drop out?) of YHC. The primary reason being that I have just been focused more on my life outside of activities here lately. I've been meeting new people, new relationships, etc. I've been saving money, converting pieces into BTC, and getting rid of debt.	[06:55]
lobbes:	In other words my life isn't in a tailspin like it once was and I've managed to stabilize things a bit and am slowly gaining altitude. I honestly just want to continue on my own terms from here, whether I crash or not. It is hard for me to fully articulate it.	[06:55]
lobbes:	I still plan to stick around and keep my blog and bot alive, and I still aim to work on auctionbot as I outlined in my last article, though it will most likely be at a slower pace.	[06:55]
lobbes:	In any case, I want to thank you again for the tools you have given me and the various key nuggets you have taught me. I know I dropped off completely at the end there but I did gain quite a bit from the process, so I appreciate being given the opportunity to take part.	[06:55]
diana_coman:	lobbes alright.	[09:28]
diana_coman:	trinque the way I read whaack's plans there, it seems to me it's not really cr economy that he banks on – if anything, CR "unspoiled and free haven" appeal; do you see that tarnished/lowering somehow?	[09:31]
billymg:	trinque: from my perspective, and this isn't based on much more than intuition and the small observations i've made since moving here, the people here are much better at living within their means than most of the US/EU, who've become accustomed to a lifestyle on welfare way beyond their means	[14:51]
billymg:	so when things slow down, people here will carry on fine. whereas those in the various zones might start to get desperate	[14:52]
billymg:	so you could compare it to the rural, sane, self-sufficient parts of the US	[14:53]
diana_coman:	hm, spyked, did feedbot stop announcing my blog's feed in here?	[20:43]
diana_coman:	jfw – that tab-completion please (or I'll end up typing all combinations of j f w)	[20:44]
diana_coman:	spyked also, with the monthly log articles, it works actually to have feedbot announce again in #eulora too – preferably only the coding/eulora category, is that possible?	[20:46]
spyked:	diana_coman, for some odd reason I forgot to start the rss checker on the last restart (which is supposed to fix the reconnect issues once and for all). announcement should be on soon	[20:53]
spyked:	sorry for the delay	[20:54]
diana_coman:	spyked ah, no worries	[20:54]
spyked:	diana_coman, re #e sure, i'll look 5 mins into this. iirc it was possible to get feeds only for certain categories in mp-wp	[20:56]
spyked:	would you like anything else in there except ossasepia.com	[20:56]
spyked:	?	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/swarming-limbs-and-twisted-nets-5th-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — Swarming Limbs and Twisted Nets: 5th Parade of Hopefuls	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-5302020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/30/2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-5312020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/31/2020	[20:56]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/aspectibus-gratiose/ << Trilema — Aspectibus gratiose	[20:57]
diana_coman:	spyked in there where? in #eulora there should be also trilema/smg category	[20:57]
spyked:	ok	[20:57]
spyked:	diana_coman, http://ossasepia.com/category/eulora/feed/ this looks alright to me. I can have it announced in #e	[20:58]
diana_coman:	cool, thanks!	[20:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: don't think any of those combinations are pronounceable but alright!	[21:04]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/eulora-logs-for-Jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for Jun 2020	[21:05]
diana_coman:	jfw well, I'd be writing them, not pronouncing them! and think ye of whaaack and others too!	[21:06]
jfw:	dianna_comman: indeed.	[21:07]
diana_coman:	let the consonants multiply!	[21:09]
jfw:	as long as they're in consonance.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	not bad!	[21:14]
jfw:	lobbes: good luck, and fwiw, I've enjoyed your writing so I hope you keep the blog alive as in growing and not just serving packets	[21:15]
jfw:	(meanwhile the month of May glares at me, yes)	[21:16]
diana_coman:	poor unloved blog	[21:22]
diana_coman:	well, unloved by its owner, since others seem to like it even better but …what can that do for it.	[21:23]
diana_coman:	spyked did feedbot spit out the full category feed in #eulora now?	[21:46]
diana_coman:	lmao	[21:46]
diana_coman:	making the summary since 2014 or what, lolz	[21:47]
diana_coman:	jurov – is "The Foundation does not require grandiose political aspirations such as a new world order to stay steward of bitcoin technology and V tool." just a jibe or do you literally mean that the foundation is dedicated to apolitical stewardship of "bitcoin technology and V tool"?	[21:56]
diana_coman:	or perhaps something else, in which case – what? I genuinely can't see a third option so far.	[21:57]
diana_coman:	at any rate, "new world order" is quite lulzy indeed – if anything, it was as old as it gets, rather.	[22:00]
jfw:	if indeed apolitical then it might as well be "blockchain technology", entirely devoid of discrimination (and meaning)	[22:05]
diana_coman:	I don't yet know, hence my question; I'll wait for jurov to clarify.	[22:08]
trinque:	billymg: my perception is that some of central america's relative stability has to do with the proximity of a meddlesome, gigantic military.	[02:34]
trinque:	and therefore the need for mexico to at least pretend to you know, smiling, "modern" politics	[02:34]
trinque:	might be great for the mexicans, but depending on how in-wot you look, don't know whether it's great for you.	[05:55]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026605 <– lol, possibly. depends what's in the rss feed. poor thing has no notion of 'categories', it just looks for things it hasn't seen before; and usually when you !1subscribe to a new feed, everything's 'new'	[08:45]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-01 21:46:44 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked did feedbot spit out the full category feed in #eulora now?	[08:45]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026616 – spyked, I was under the impression that new subscriptions get some "last 5" or similar initial start rather than "all new" since otherwise it would mean that every time one subscribes to a new blog they would get the full history of that blog dumped no matter how long? or what am I missing there?	[09:49]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-02 08:45:57 (#ossasepia) spyked: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026605 <– lol, possibly. depends what's in the rss feed. poor thing has no notion of 'categories', it just looks for things it hasn't seen before; and usually when you !1subscribe to a new feed, everything's 'new'	[09:49]
diana_coman:	jfw the hand-cranked scrolling in yrc is awful, apparently there are lines that I just don't manage to get on screen with page up/down, at all, how is that even possible? I end up having to read the chan from the log instead, ugh.	[09:53]
spyked:	diana_coman, that is a setting in wordpress, not feedbot.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	spyked oh, you mean the bot just takes as many entries as the blog shows on one page of feeds?	[10:23]
diana_coman:	the wordpress setting is to my mind for showing on a page, not quite the same (nor really wordpress/blog's concern) as what "new subscription" might mean, hm.	[10:24]
diana_coman:	on a page I want all of them indeed; on a new subscription though not so sure.	[10:26]
spyked:	yeah, it doesn't make any decisions re. the handling of items, it just announces them.	[10:26]
spyked:	diana_coman there seems to be some intertwining between rss generation and post-list pagination in wp that I never got. it kind of irks me too, e.g. http://thetarpit.org/category/asphalt shows only a few items, so if I set it to show more, feedbot will probably start spamming the same way	[10:31]
spyked:	prolly this would require a fix on both ends; it should be possible to disable pagination for article lists and set the number of rss items separately from pages	[10:32]
spyked:	or perhaps pagination is useless altogether, not sure if anyone has any need for it	[10:33]
spyked:	prolly feedbot could also have a per-feed knob of "number of items to sync at a given time", but this leads back to the problems in that http://thetarpit.org/2019/feed-bot-spec-proposal#fn:9 discussion; either way, I don't see a choice that wouldn't lead me to supporting only a subset of the rss standard (I'd have to make assumptions about ordering in within rss feeds/channels etc.)	[10:38]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/si-mami/ << Trilema — Si, mam	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jurov you can voice yourself with deedbot.	[20:37]
diana_coman:	no need to wait for me or anything	[20:37]
jfw:	diana_coman: yes, that's the scrolling based on source lines rather than wrapped output awfulness; can certainly be fixed.	[20:44]
diana_coman:	jfw so… when?	[20:45]
jfw:	(a workaround I've used is to switch to the scrollback pane with 'Ins' then scroll linewise.)	[20:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: reckon I could get to at least some of the remaining problems later this week	[20:46]
diana_coman:	hm, iirc you meant among other things to push yrc as the irc client to use for all jwrd clients; so dunno, are you going to go about suggesting them various workarounds for usability now?	[20:46]
diana_coman:	for that matter, I gather poor dorion took it as it was and never complained properly, huh; dorion – don't let the tech start pushing workarounds, software can be fixed, just…complain about it, loudly! lol	[20:48]
jfw:	I'd rather not have to, sure.	[20:49]
jfw:	I think I did more complaining about it than any prior users, heh	[20:50]
diana_coman:	you did? as in complained about it to yourself or how?	[20:50]
jfw:	(first version didn't keep logs for example)	[20:50]
jfw:	even out loud sometimes!	[20:50]
diana_coman:	or you complained louder and first so nobody else got a chance to add to it!! I see	[20:50]
diana_coman:	ahaha – was anyone impressed by the out-loud complaints?	[20:52]
jfw:	heh, don't recall them noting either way.	[20:52]
diana_coman:	lol, that can't have been loud enough then	[20:53]
diana_coman:	jfw so now that scrolling in yrc will be fixed by the end of this week – what else is in your shall-not-be-written-because-then-it-doesn't-count plan for this week?	[20:54]
jfw:	diana_coman: one thing not noted yet that's bugged me, and I wonder if you think it's even a problem vis-a-vis the pasting discussion, is copying text from the terminal for opening links or otherwise, given the split layout	[20:54]
diana_coman:	hm, so far I didn't really need that and kind of still finding my way around it; atm I've set it up on a remote machine and connecting to it from all sorts too so not exactly a very settled setup otherwise	[20:56]
jfw:	diana_coman: there's more lesson & homework development, writing, moving the health plan application along, and communications re cutting off the Panama apartment	[20:58]
jurov:	trinque: deedbot says i can't voice myself, or I need to try !!up ossassepia or something like?	[21:00]
diana_coman:	jurov it's !!up #ossasepia jurov	[21:00]
diana_coman:	usually the chan name is tripping people up	[21:00]
jurov:	diana_coman: ty	[21:00]
diana_coman:	np	[21:00]
diana_coman:	!!help	[21:00]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[21:00]
diana_coman:	the help page is updated too afaik	[21:01]
jurov:	diana_coman: and the "jibe" expresses my disgust and departure from the detrimental verbiage that surrounded TMSR.	[21:01]
jurov:	the foundation it will never be apolitical by nature, but I'd rather focus, first fix bitcoin codebase, then fix software development as such, then larger thing	[21:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: ack re not-settled-yet setup, no rush (well on my part at least which I guess you've noticed!)	[21:02]
diana_coman:	jurov – if I understand this correctly, you mean that you want to focus on the trb codebase (or what is bitcoin codebase?) and otherwise the political part is implicit/by nature so not a direct concern; is this correct?	[21:08]
jurov:	diana_coman: correct. and "bitcoin codebase" includes a wallet which is due to be separated from trb, and possibly also block explorer	[21:10]
diana_coman:	for the logs and ftr, TMSR as an organization did not at any point promote talking without doing; that some indulged in that is their own personal doing, not TMSR's.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	jurov – is this bitcoin wallet and block explorer some parts/bits that you/ben did while out of the loop as you say or do you mean they are first/next on the list of to do or how?	[21:13]
diana_coman:	because following the logs of #therealbitcoin, I saw stan's statement that trb should be left as it is, further reiterated in response to jfw's questions.	[21:14]
jurov:	you should know better from eulora how the "leave everything in stone as is" ends up, no?	[21:19]
jurov:	re: wallet I think about salvaging good parts of electrum2, but when I get to it, I don't know.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	for the logs: the statement that trb should be left as it is and the discussion following jfw's questions on it	[21:19]
snsabot:	(therealbitcoin) 2020-05-11 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pov re trb worx ftr	[21:19]
snsabot:	(therealbitcoin) 2020-05-15 jfw: asciilifeform: mind expanding on what you mean by leave it the fuck alone and why?	[21:20]
jurov:	diana_coman:yes, i am aware of that and it is the current status quo but we will see if it is possible long term.	[21:21]
jurov:	and re: blockexplorer, there's mimisbrunnr, waits for when ben returns or someone else picks it up	[21:22]
diana_coman:	from the same logs, I had read also that jurov had only "meddled a bit with trb mempool and then tuned out" so I admit that I'm at a loss now re 1. that block explorer and wallet 2. why/how/in what exactly is jurov all of a sudden interested again	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jurov well, it was possible for years already so pretty long term, I'd say	[21:23]
jurov:	because mod6 was pretty desperate and I'd hate to see it just die	[21:25]
diana_coman:	I can imagine that indeed; and ftr I'm quite sorry about how it all turned out for mod6 indeed.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	jurov what is it that you'd have to see just die	[21:27]
diana_coman:	?	[21:27]
diana_coman:	hate*	[21:27]
jurov:	you don't want the foundation go on?	[21:27]
jurov:	or what was your idea that considerations for wallet and explorer surprise you?	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jurov I am not sure I see what this "the foundation" is, to go on; and if I stretch the definition of being to include those many years when the "status quo" as you put it just kept going, I don't think I want it to go on like that, no.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jurov ah, not considerations; I read that as "there is this software too" so I was surprised that the said software parts exist already and I had no idea about them; it turns out you meant them as plans, so that makes sense and no surprise;	[21:30]
jurov:	They are plans for me because I am to study and sign them.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	but otherwise – jfw and dorion as part of their jwrd work have an offline wallet and jfw plans to publish that as far as I know; not sure what is the foundation's claim/space otherwise since it was created initially as part of tmsr outreach really, not just library of code; that closed down, the foundation now aims to still be what exactly, an actual foundation? do you plan to raise funds and all	[21:32]
diana_coman:	that or what?	[21:32]
diana_coman:	also, atm from what I understand, ben vulpes is not active; does he intend to become active co-chair for this re-defined foundation?	[21:33]
jurov:	That is all tbd.	[21:34]
jurov:	Why do you ask, you won't work with me unless I exactly plan everything in detail?	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jurov – if you don't mind, what is it that you consider valuable in the foundation as it currently stands?	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jurov – I am trying to understand what it is that you mean to do – not in detail but as approach and especially the causes at the root of it all because it's those that decide in the end what happens further "in detail" as you put it	[21:36]
jurov:	The notion of deep study and careful improvements instead of "cool" feature development.	[21:37]
jfw:	ftr, our wallet is built to a spec from last year, vpatches are at gbw-node, gbw-signer, and the interpreter gscm, what's missing is mainly writeups introducing those.	[21:38]
diana_coman:	jurov while I was never part of the foundation, I don't think I ever followed "cool" feature development anywhere; and I doubt jwrd will go for cool features, seeing how they need to go for useful features or die, can't have better reason than that.	[21:40]
jfw:	I hit a wall in walking MP through a test run because I wasn't prepared at least on the V side which is why I spent some time looking into that recently.	[21:40]
jurov:	diana_coman: I was insinuating you do? I hope not!	[21:41]
diana_coman:	jurov no, I didn't take it as an insinuation; my point was that the characteristic you mentioned is one of individuals, not something of foundation's, hence my trouble in figuring out just what is there.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	not sure how to put this clearer, hm.	[21:42]
jurov:	I know what you mean and it is VERY true, Foundation can't ever hope to pay for that kind of deep study and careful improvements. But it can provide services, infrastructure.	[21:45]
jurov:	You're probably going to ask what services and infrastructure exactly, that I still have to work out myself.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	jurov – there are some questions well before that really: 1. to whom does the foundation intend to provide services and infrastructure (since that goes a long way in defining those anyway and yes, it matters more than what exact etc) 2. how does the foundation intend to fund itself 3. what does the history of the foundation and its association mean/how is that handled	[21:49]
diana_coman:	because it may intend to provide services and infrastructure but whether it intends to or not, it certainly and inescapably will provide the historical link with all there is to it, positive and negative.	[21:50]
jurov:	1. people will self-select, as was hitherto the case	[21:51]
jurov:	2. fundraising will be in order when it's clearer what to do with current resources	[21:52]
jurov:	3. what do you have in mind? what does "handling of history and its association" mean for eulora, for example?	[21:55]
diana_coman:	jurov huh? how do you see the 2 similar? eulora is owned by s.mg which is a mpex listed entity with funds raised via IPO	[21:56]
diana_coman:	how is that similar to a tmsr-outreach foundation endowed with funds meant for outreach of tmsr , I don't follow	[21:56]
jurov:	And did tmsr name any successor entity? AFAIK no. So it's up to chaiprpersons of Foundation.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	re 1. in that sense people always self-select, sure; even customers in a shop will self-select, not like you go and force them into the shop or something; there is however still some profile that you can tell you are aiming for, at the very least	[21:58]
diana_coman:	jurov – how do you mean a successor entity? so the money was donated for tmsr outreach; tmsr closes down and the money was never used for its intended purpose; so then you mean it should have… what, found some other entity for which to outreach?	[22:01]
jurov:	well, should it?	[22:01]
diana_coman:	jurov it's well known, I don't go for any "should", lol; nothing ever "should"; there is however the uneasy squaring of this "oh, tmsr closed down so now we keep the money and figure out something to do with it"	[22:03]
jurov:	http://thebitcoin.foundation/charter.html do you see anything about outreach of tmsr here? i don't	[22:11]
jurov:	then, there is http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt which says taxes should be used for some kind of protection of #bitcoin-assets members, which also never happened	[22:13]
jurov:	I hope it's clear to everyone it needs to be rethought, and I happened to be the person responsible.	[22:17]
diana_coman:	jurov uhm, not sure I follow there the link you are making; to start with the easier bits to clarify – the taxation was never paid because never "bitcoin realised", sure; as trinque often and correctly noted, tmsr was essentially broke and never managed to develop commerce	[22:17]
diana_coman:	or whatever else, for that matter.	[22:17]
jurov:	How it did not develop commerce? I was basically living off doing commerce in TMSR for years already!	[22:18]
diana_coman:	this easy bit aside though, the core uncovered seems to be related to a. the foundation as a non-tmsr entity b. what the donations were for	[22:19]
diana_coman:	jurov well, you tuned off and refused to be an active part so what can I say there.	[22:21]
diana_coman:	I hadn't realised that the role of the foundation as outreach for tmsr and the intended role of the donations were unclear/disputed so I haven't prepared with full links on the matter; I suppose this becomes needed though now, for the full record if for nothing else.	[22:24]
jurov:	What can I say, under TMSR prolonged hiatus is an grave offense punishable by forfeiture of funds, good TMSR is no more.	[22:24]
diana_coman:	huh? according to your own statement you purposefully "kept a low profile" so it's not just some hiatus or how do you mean?	[22:25]
diana_coman:	and no, as far as I know Mike_C got his funds back after prolongued hiatus no problem (and even lost out because of BingoBoingo's handling of the matter, not because of the absence)	[22:26]
jurov:	you're splitting hairs, hiatus is a hiatus	[22:27]
diana_coman:	jurov listen, I gather that you personally are happy that tmsr is no more; that is fine; I also gather that you personally lost those funds; that however does not make it some tmsr-rule and I provided one counterexample.	[22:28]
jfw:	rereading that declaration I don't see anything about the tax being used for protection, but rather that the signers pledge to support each other and the declaration. (Nothing about a republic either for that matter, though dunno, perhaps the mutual pledge + tax constitutes a republic well enough)	[22:33]
diana_coman:	reading through that declaration it strikes me that it actually even further binds the foundation as a part of tmsr so even more so ending when tmsr ends, uhm.	[22:33]
jurov:	Forfeiture is forfeiture, even if "only" 30btc fine.	[22:35]
diana_coman:	jfw yes, there wasn't anything about "protection"; and indeed, I took the whole as = tmsr ; now if I understand it correctly, jurov sees somehow the foundation entirely apart from the rest in there	[22:35]
jurov:	Yes it is apart. I consider paying fines where no damage was done, only for hiatus, to be an act of government.	[22:37]
diana_coman:	jurov the fine was basically for choice of BingoBoingo, nothing to do with hiatus; but at any rate, I'd say this is in the end not the core issue for the foundation at all (unless you mean that therefore the foundation funds are to be kept – is this it?); the core is a. the role of the foundation b. the intended role of donations	[22:38]
jurov:	Well, I have put out a statement and tried to explain it. I don't have more to say atm, if you aren't satisfied, there will be more statements with more information.	[22:40]
jurov:	And I pay no heed to TMSR anymore, because it behaved to my clients worse than any government.	[22:41]
diana_coman:	jurov there's no tmsr anymore indeed; you can certainly do as you choose and thank you for stating your mind on this matter.	[22:43]
diana_coman:	to me so far it seems it's indeed a matter of "jurov lost those funds therefore the foundation's funds are to be kept too"; people will have to decide for themselves, as always.	[22:46]
jurov:	OK. And If I may honestly ask, how comes the Foundation is a mess, and Eulora is (supposedly) not, when there's fewer active players than trb nodes despite much bigger resurces of S.MG?	[22:47]
diana_coman:	jurov sure: look at what eulora has developed during the interval and compare with what the foundation has developed during the same interval; for all the more people involved and more public support, at that.	[22:48]
diana_coman:	and note that I ran a node and it's even still public ; the foundation did 0 for eulora if you want to count that too.	[22:49]
jurov:	Thank you!	[22:54]
diana_coman:	for the log and readers that might be unaware – the "few active players" is because of a public decision that went along the lines of "beta clearly successful given the amount of playtime and money players poured in, so will focus on getting out the rsa-version before anything else"; and if someone thinks that players who have in game full bitcoins are somehow "not active" because not playing	[22:56]
diana_coman:	right now, what can I say.	[22:56]
diana_coman:	technically speaking I should have said what s.mg developed rather than eulora since the entity in question is really s.mg.	[23:01]
jurov:	If I were you, I'd probably nitpick that S.MG was about running games, not about development.	[23:05]
jurov:	Really, did you ask and answered yurself and your boss all these questions you wanted me to answer?	[23:06]
diana_coman:	jurov – I didn't mean that as strictly "code", no.	[23:06]
diana_coman:	jurov huh	[23:06]
diana_coman:	?	[23:06]
diana_coman:	I don't follow	[23:06]
diana_coman:	ask me if there's anything unclear, I don't mind	[23:07]
jurov:	for example, I found intereting how you argued tmsr has not developed commerce..it has never crossed your mind eulora could have been it?	[23:12]
diana_coman:	jurov yes, mp was /is commerce and s.mg is his; I did indeed take him out of it since it was all in the context of reference to trinque's observations; perhaps I cut there too short the corner and it became unclear	[23:13]
diana_coman:	so let me restate that: from those active in tmsr, it was only MP who made money from outside tmsr.	[23:14]
diana_coman:	sure, from what I gather, trinque has his firm and ben vulpes has his too.	[23:14]
diana_coman:	from what you said, I understand you made money from tmsr being there, while keeping a low profile.	[23:15]
jurov:	No that's not true.	[23:15]
jurov:	I made most of it while actively running the MPEx broker, and it helped to get outside money quite a lot.	[23:16]
diana_coman:	alright; I don't know that part.	[23:16]
diana_coman:	thinking of what you meant re those questions – if you mean whether I know what sort of player eulora targets for instance – yes, I do.	[23:18]
jurov:	People who don't mind their funds are liable to disappear on a whim?	[23:20]
diana_coman:	jurov lolz, no.	[23:20]
diana_coman:	and no funds disappeared.	[23:20]
jurov:	You're just lucky.	[23:21]
diana_coman:	jurov do I understand it correctly that you have now a bone to pick with eulora or with s.mg or with me or what?	[23:21]
jurov:	Regardless of bone, you seem to think there's no eulora-related history that might affect the players?	[23:24]
jurov:	more precisely, mp-related?	[23:24]
diana_coman:	jurov you do realise that there are eulora players with negative ratings from mp and yes, they are not affected; does this answer your question?	[23:24]
diana_coman:	iirc there is even a public statement somewhere re this, if anyone cares to dig it out.	[23:25]
jurov:	Yes, it answers. As I said, you're lucky, so far.	[23:27]
diana_coman:	jurov well, you can say that to anything really, sure; one is even alive to be still breathing, so far; until they die, sure.	[23:28]
diana_coman:	even lucky to be alive*	[23:29]
jurov:	Right, when you are denied access to funds and being told it's your fault in some vague terms, you exhale with joy that you are at least alive :)	[23:31]
diana_coman:	jurov no, I didn't mean that at all.	[23:31]
diana_coman:	jurov – I'll keep reading your further statements , as you said you intend to publish them; it's late here and I'll go offline now but I'll be back tomorrow as usual if there's anything else you want to ask.	[23:33]
diana_coman:	as I said earlier and meant it, thank you for stating your mind on it all.	[23:34]
jurov:	Similar, and I had not came here to grind my axe, sorry.	[23:34]
diana_coman:	no problem.	[23:34]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-7/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 7	[00:38]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-1/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 1	[20:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-2-the-imperative-mood-notes/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 2 – The Imperative Mood Notes	[20:26]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-8-how-to-pentatonic/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 8 – How To Pentatonic	[20:33]
diana_coman:	jfw in further yrc nitpicks – does it apply lowercase to incoming nicks or how does it manage to end up with 2 windows for the same nick only based on case-sensitiveness? e.g. /msg NickServ will end up in window NickServ but reply will end up in a new window, nickserv	[21:09]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-9/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 9	[21:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: that rings a bell, I'll have a look on this pass. possibly more like not applying a case-mapping where it should. IRC is supposedly case insensitive, unfortunately implementations differ as to what the mapping actually is (Scandinavian origins). still, should at least do one mapping consistently	[21:15]
diana_coman:	aha, that sounds sensible	[21:15]
jfw:	I'd also like it to show date changes (when there's actually messages there), that'd be nice for the monthly blogolog too	[21:17]
diana_coman:	well, the 2 are separate, lol	[21:19]
jfw:	I know, I'm pointing out what to me seems a shortcoming in both since the dates are not otherwise displayed.	[21:21]
diana_coman:	alright, noted	[21:22]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/03/jfw-daily-summaries-week-of-1-jun-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW daily summaries, week of 1 Jun 2020	[21:23]
diana_coman:	tbh for yrc I don't particularly see it as a big thing either way	[21:23]
diana_coman:	I can kind of see the use for it more in the blogo-monthly log indeed	[21:23]
jfw:	alright, good to know re priorities on those usability issues.	[21:24]
jfw:	one can get full unix timestamps from the log files (and I have a script to format these as human dates that'll go in the next patch) but I saw that as a workaround.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	aha, I noticed the unix timestamps in the log files, made for a pleasant change from all the various formats/not 2 the same otherwise.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	welcome back cruciform	[21:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks! Apologies for the ~month absence – I fell off the wagon a tad :p	[21:27]
jfw:	diana_coman: heh, you might not like then that it's centiseconds rather than the more conventional float-seconds or ns or whatever	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw ahahaha	[21:27]
diana_coman:	see, I didn't yet look at it in any detail	[21:28]
diana_coman:	cruciform one of those days I'll figure out what's this falling-off-the-wagon fashion all about!	[21:29]
cruciform:	diana_coman, in fairness, I guess most people don't have much of a wagon to fall off (not that I have such an excuse)	[21:31]
diana_coman:	you are possibly quite right there, indeed, huh.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	cruciform how's the move going?	[21:33]
cruciform:	at any rate, I'll have a post up tonight about the prior month and the upcoming week; my internet connectivity will be a bit spotty over the next few days – packing stuff and moving to a friend's for a coupla weeks	[21:34]
cruciform:	the move's not been terrible so far; just time-consuming	[21:35]
diana_coman:	so where to?	[21:36]
cruciform:	back to Surrey – had enough of London to last a lifetime!	[21:37]
diana_coman:	ah, I thought it was either Bath or York	[21:37]
cruciform:	yea, reckon it still will be, but there are some local family issues I need to sort out in the next week or two	[21:38]
diana_coman:	ah, so move 2 to follow, lolz	[21:38]
cruciform:	I believe one's allowed to actually view properties again, since Monday – didn't wanna move sight-unseen	[21:38]
diana_coman:	oh, do they expect one to move now without even visiting?	[21:39]
cruciform:	lol, yes – hopefully the moves'll be inductive; and if the first one goes well, so will the rest!	[21:39]
cruciform:	I believe that's been the case for the last coupla months, yea – they only allowed "online viewings"	[21:40]
diana_coman:	ahahah, that figuring out proof by induction clearly left its mark	[21:40]
jfw:	next up, paying rent by posting pictures of cash	[21:40]
diana_coman:	lmao; then again, I guess on one hand "wtf all the pretense, they are all ~same anyway" and otoh since it still goes ahead anyway…why not push it further, ofc.	[21:41]
cruciform:	jfw, I understand lots of people's "girlfriends" work along the same lines, nowadays	[21:41]
jfw:	cruciform: you'd think the reuse possibilities there would be lucrative except the market's well saturated for quite some time now :D	[21:43]
cruciform:	lol, I suppose they'd argue it lowers carbon emissions/is a form of recycling, if people don't have to actually meet up	[21:45]
diana_coman:	it's safer!	[21:45]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I noticed since Monday, far fewer masks; traffic – cars and foot – much closer to pre-hysteria levels	[21:47]
diana_coman:	here I barely saw any masks at all at any time; gotta be London the worst, huh.	[21:47]
cruciform:	I did a coupla informal counts over the last few weeks – it was always >50%; since Monday, ~33%	[21:48]
diana_coman:	but yeah, at the weekend it was absolutely packed in and around the chiltern hills area	[21:48]
cruciform:	sounds lovely! have you been to Hughenden Manor	[21:49]
diana_coman:	I have to admit though that I find the orderly queues quite funny to watch – from a distance, lol	[21:49]
cruciform:	ikr! I should've taken pics – some of the bank queues were 100 yards long	[21:51]
diana_coman:	no, is that anything special? I tried to get to the hills, proper hills, god-damned it but I still ended up with mainly walking-on-the-flat-near-the-river	[21:51]
diana_coman:	bank queues ? ahahah ; so far I saw only supermarket and shop queues	[21:51]
diana_coman:	so next time I guess I'll just get a boat to start with, makes more sense anyway	[21:52]
cruciform:	yea; people snaking back in 2metre increments	[21:52]
diana_coman:	so 1980's!	[21:53]
cruciform:	Hughenden is great – especially if you like redbrick; it's on a hill, though nothing mountainous!	[21:54]
diana_coman:	funnily enough, trying to find a "village" we ended up walking all the way to …"the town"; apparently we failed to register the 3 houses as village or something.	[21:54]
diana_coman:	but anyway, from what I saw the "distancing" idea is that people get out of the way simply so honestly, I don't mind it at all.	[21:55]
cruciform:	same, though I am in need of the services of a tailor/barber/gym-operator	[21:56]
diana_coman:	cruciform bwahaha, redbrick is a never-ending-complaint in my house	[21:56]
diana_coman:	but yeah, redbrick is expected too; the surprise is if it is something else, really.	[21:57]
cruciform:	diana_coman, lol, I used to be the same, but it grew on me	[21:57]
diana_coman:	now a tailor/barber/gym-operator in one like that might be even rarer than not-redbrick, lol	[22:00]
cruciform:	lol, National Trust is missing a beat!	[22:00]
cruciform:	isn't it odd how the narrative has changed – virtually overnight – from the flu to the riots? And no one seems to care/notice – as long as they have something to be hysterical about	[22:02]
diana_coman:	cruciform what exactly would you class as "care/notice"? as in where & how can that even happen exactly?	[22:03]
diana_coman:	it's not hysterical, it's just …with a purpose, ok?	[22:04]
diana_coman:	verschlimbesserung (thank you for the term, bvt!)	[22:04]
cruciform:	I suppose I mean, the mainstream media goes from 110% Covid doom to 110% blacklivematterTM doom, and people just shift their focus of worry	[22:05]
cruciform:	but without thinking, "oh, I suppose that last thing couldn't have been so bad, afterall" – just straight to the next worst-thing-ever	[22:07]
diana_coman:	eh, common; it's like expecting people at latest film to still worry about the previous film's action, lol	[22:07]
cruciform:	how come everything is a Fast and Furious 11/Avengers-universe/Harry Hobbit thing nowadays, then?	[22:09]
diana_coman:	fashion really; but what difference exactly do you think it makes ?	[22:10]
cruciform:	well, it seems people can fanatically follow a narrative within a fictional universe… oh, lol; it's the same with the media	[22:12]
cruciform:	at least the movies have special effects!	[22:13]
diana_coman:	well, they are trying! it's called PPE!	[22:13]
cruciform:	Personal Protective Equipment? Politics, Philosophy & Economics?	[22:14]
diana_coman:	now recalling the village-life discussion – have you ever seen sheep as in more than "look, there's some sheep over there"?	[22:14]
cruciform:	I've seen 'em in a petting zoo	[22:15]
diana_coman:	shall not spoil the PPE mystery and allow readers to enjoy it!	[22:15]
diana_coman:	cruciform ah, no, that won't do anything, hm	[22:15]
diana_coman:	literally to see for a couple of days how sheep behave; the bland "they follow one another" fails utterly to capture any of it really	[22:16]
cruciform:	ah, no – I've only seen 'em in passing; though the way people've reacted to the virus…	[22:17]
diana_coman:	that they follow blindly is one thing; more at the root though, I'd say it's the fact that they will desperately push into the flock, it's at times a very vivid illustration of what I can only call – the desire to not-be-individual	[22:20]
diana_coman:	it's that the one thing that trumps everything else, the total terror, nothing else.	[22:21]
diana_coman:	but anyway, I doubt there's any way I can somehow express that just through description as such.	[22:22]
cruciform:	I'm recalling Patrick Bateman's "I want to fit in!"	[22:22]
cruciform:	diana_coman, isn't it strange, the trope of everyone being a unique special snowflake, given the above?	[22:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform, lol, I'm only vaguely aware of it as a reference; I rarely (very rarely) watch films at all	[22:23]
diana_coman:	not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[22:24]
diana_coman:	especially so all-important to affirm it, not to ..be it	[22:24]
cruciform:	thanks for the insight; like any good ruminant, I'll have to chew it over – meanwhile, I'd better get back to boxing – be back tomorrow!	[22:26]
diana_coman:	in the enduring words of a frustrated classmate: "I only say crazy stuff and everyone says I'm nuts but you DO even crazier stuff and nobody says anything!!"	[22:27]
diana_coman:	laters	[22:27]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/04/back-to-work/ << Young Hands Club — Back to Work!	[04:27]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6012020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/01/2020	[05:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/troco-as-in-truculence/ << Trilema — Troco, as in truculence	[07:39]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/building-trb-on-debian-wheezy-a-report << The Tar Pit — Building TRB on Debian Wheezy; a report	[12:19]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo, from what I see, your Montevideo Standard and/or video exploration is working well for you and I'm glad for it but since your focus is naturally there entirely, it seems to me you are better off as former member of yhc rather than in that hopefuls category; is this alright with you?	[21:12]
jfw:	I was thinking about this why snowflakes, so far just came up with: "because pretense appears cheaper/easier than actually becoming an individual"	[21:15]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-03 22:24:21 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[21:15]
jfw:	diana_coman: not sure if you caught this admittedly belated update given "welcome back to the summaries". Now to make 'em actually daily…	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw I did catch them but yeah, they didn't seem quite all that regular/daily, heh	[21:21]
jfw:	gotcha.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	jfw re snowflake, that's already secondary, not in any way a cause of the focus as such	[21:27]
diana_coman:	and for that matter in general – nobody ever gets offended by words that don't touch some real sore spot; nor does anyone obsess over matters that are already sorted and taken care of for reals.	[21:29]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: That is ok with me.	[21:30]
diana_coman:	jfw it's not as much that the pretense seems easier – it's more that there isn't much else left within the boundaries that they chose already – or alternatively, it's more that the actual being terrifies to such extent that it seems outright impossible; and the terror gets papered over with ever-louder chanting that "it's great as it is!!"	[21:33]
diana_coman:	and sure, it's also just one result of a long string of previous choices (sometimes choices made unknowingly, sure, not less choices made for that)	[21:37]
diana_coman:	so indeed, it is way, way easier to pretend given all the lack of exercise at being accumulated previously	[21:38]
diana_coman:	this doesn't make it work any better, nor does it make more important nor a better choice	[21:39]
diana_coman:	basically the pretense by that point is the easy and even "strategy" – to the extent that you'd call a river's flowing towards next lowest point a "strategy", since it's quite that, simply lowest effort in the moment	[21:41]
diana_coman:	even natural "strategy" * (not sure why I keep skipping words lately)	[21:42]
jfw:	easier to say you're where you want to be than to paddle back upstream once you've missed it.	[21:43]
diana_coman:	hm, not even as much that; it's more like this – the lack of being is perceived and it gnaws terribly; for all that, there aren't any resources to be able to even realise that "paddling upstream is needed" or anything of the sort; so …to appease fear, what is left but talking loudly	[21:45]
diana_coman:	hence my earlier choice of word "chanting" because to some extent it's quite that – a ritual for lack of any better.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	for that matter, the same mechanism applies and is obvious to even way simpler things – I lost count how many teenagers "lacking confidence for the exams" I saw; how could they have any confidence armed as they were with a… set of rules of which they understood ~nothing; sure, they had all the words that "it's good" and "well done" and great marks and all that but they were too alive to not	[21:49]
diana_coman:	notice (even if without being able to explain it/ put it into words) the trouble	[21:49]
diana_coman:	the "cure" being in each and every case, sitting them down and getting them to actually make sense for the first time of whatever it was, the tiniest bit to start with; works wonders.	[21:51]
jfw:	like memorizing formulas without seeing how they're derived or proven? which is what I noticed was mostly happening around early teens	[21:53]
diana_coman:	heh, worse – "learning" by having gone through a set of known problems with known steps-to-solve; basically pattern-matching, all of it.	[21:55]
diana_coman:	coming back round to why is it so all-important that everyone is a special and unique snowflake – precisely because it's an important thing that is lost/given up.	[21:59]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-03 22:24:21 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: not all that strange if you think of why is it so all-important, heh	[21:59]
jfw:	not quite seeing the "worse" re pattern-matching: isn't that just what a formula is? "given this problem, follow these steps"	[21:59]
diana_coman:	ah, "formula" in my head stands literally for something like F=m*a lol; not a full algorithm basically; but yes, if you meant "given this problem, follow these steps" then indeed, that.	[22:01]
jfw:	indeed I meant it as an example then it generalized.	[22:02]
jfw:	thanks for the explain!	[22:04]
diana_coman:	yw	[22:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/05/the-bitcoin-foundation-2014-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — The Bitcoin Foundation 2014-2020	[17:18]
billymg:	i'm very close to having the js removal patch ready for review, a lot of php got chopped as well	[18:10]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6042020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/04/2020	[18:44]
diana_coman:	billymg – that sounds very good indeed!	[20:41]
diana_coman:	I'll be back tomorrow as usual.	[21:18]
diana_coman:	well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[20:58]
diana_coman:	what he imagines spying to be; I guess it serves me right for trying to engage them; whatevers.	[20:58]
diana_coman:	trinque if you consider something wrong/missing/misstated in my record, I'd appreciate if you leave a comment there with the correction; thank you.	[20:59]
jfw:	in daily progress of boring things, I've made headway on the yrc scrolling fix and still think end of week is doable. I decided on the new approach; there were a couple functions with logic based on the naive one; I found one of those was mostly redundant already and worked out how to remove it	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw – that sounds good to me!	[21:22]
jurov:	diana_coman: appears you don't in fact need my input to publish loaded commentary, where these involved too call me names behind my back.	[12:03]
jurov:	I'll excuse from answering further questions from you.	[12:03]
diana_coman:	jurov no idea what behind your back; but no, I am not interested to hear anything further from you.	[13:11]
diana_coman:	!!rated jurov	[13:11]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated jurov -3 at 2020/06/06 14:09:11 << http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026915	[13:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-06 20:58:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[13:11]
diana_coman:	!!rated asciilifeform	[13:11]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated asciilifeform -3 at 2020/06/06 14:08:50 << http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026915	[13:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-06 20:58:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: well, at least TBF's status is quite clear now although apparently I have to go fish it out and add it to the record since those involved are too busy calling me names but not to my face; by the ponder of words in tbf's log apparently asciilifeform runs now the foundation in any case and jurov practices his hand at	[13:11]
diana_coman:	ftr, all human-made comments on my blog get published.	[13:14]
diana_coman:	trinque I thought !!up worked for those with positive rating from me? anyways, not all that important anymore either way I suppose.	[13:15]
trinque:	diana_coman: hm, seems like I have the algo slightly wrong	[17:35]
trinque:	!!gettrust diana_coman jurov	[17:36]
deedbot:	L1: -3, L2: 15 by 9 connections.	[17:36]
trinque:	I need to add that L2 only matters if L1 is zero, not negative.	[17:36]
trinque:	I'll take a look.	[17:36]
trinque:	diana_coman: regarding your article, it reads to me as a restatement of what's plainly in the logs.	[17:54]
trinque:	there are folks that clearly had something they really wished to say to daddy "but anyway, if I did he wouldn't listen"	[17:55]
trinque:	and now you are apparently to them his representative.	[17:55]
trinque:	as for me, I find it an outgrowth of the larping, which is why I said "I suspect that if enough technological achievements accumulated around bitcoin, they'd speak for themselves as bitcoin has."	[17:56]
trinque:	meanwhile, world still darkens every day.	[17:57]
BingoBoingo:	The growing darkness is a large part of why I have been quiet on the IRC lately. Seemingly miracle of miracles I have managed to get a few loyal regular viewers, but… still inside the dunbar number so it is just a somewhat bigger social circle.	[20:37]
BingoBoingo:	I don't know if what I do can ever be enough, but it seems I am getting some traction with helping Latino/as realize the USSA, especially California, is third world.	[20:46]
BingoBoingo:	For all of the sadness in the late/post Republic blame game I can't help remember the period where the early Republic had victories and then… the window seemed to close as the enemy derealized themselves a sort of victory. Their delusionists delivered the pantsuits a sort of victory, woe unto the victors.	[20:50]
diana_coman:	trinque – I wouldn't have thought I'd ever say this to a texan but I find I appreciate your diplomacy!	[21:05]
diana_coman:	and so I won't press further any of the rather obvious points in all of it.	[21:06]
diana_coman:	at any rate, facts and deeds certainly speak for themselves, indeed; I wouldn't say "technology" as such though, no.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo I don't see that "blame game" you mention but whatevers.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	some people are happy it failed, others are sad it failed; there's the record, there's the choice and that's that.	[21:25]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/07/rmd-w31-review-may-30th-jun-7th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD w31 review, May 30th-Jun 7th, 2020	[22:21]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/bitch-im-a-cow/ << Trilema — "Bitch, I'm a cow…"	[02:17]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/08/dg-agenda-20200608/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.06.08	[02:40]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6052020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/05/2020	[04:44]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6062020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/06/2020	[04:55]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-06-01#1026585 << ty jfw. Yeah, I intend to keep growing my blog. It has been a very useful tool for me thus far.	[06:25]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-06-01 19:26:11 jfw: lobbes: good luck, and fwiw, I've enjoyed your writing so I hope you keep the blog alive as in growing and not just serving packets	[06:25]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/yrc-re-genesis-and-patch-for-smooth-scrolling-and-other-fixes/ << Fixpoint — yrc re-genesis and patch for smooth scrolling and other fixes	[08:53]
jfw:	me and my big mouth, "this week should be doable, I've got some progress on the coding [but haven't really factored in the consequent problems that turn up, or documentation updates, or patch cutting, or writeup…]"	[09:21]
jfw:	anyways, there we are. I'll be taking a break today, and will catch up on summaries/plans anon	[09:23]
diana_coman:	jfw – that's how one learns to factor all that stuff in! (if not next time, then the time after that…)	[10:08]
diana_coman:	jfw – new scrolling seems to work great; I especially like it that the last line of previous page remains first line of the new page so it's easy to follow; thank you!	[21:08]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/09/dg-agenda-20200609/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.06.09	[04:35]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6072020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/07/2020	[08:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6082020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/08/2020	[08:44]
jfw:	diana_coman: glad to hear it!	[21:00]
diana_coman:	jfw no trouble so far either; only I realised I was relying on some of irssi's quirks too, though nothing all that important.	[21:08]
jfw:	I suppose one can always adjust to quirks if they're reliable	[21:16]
diana_coman:	jfw – this was more a convenience I suppose eg. it filled automatically the chan name based on current window for stuff like /names	[21:21]
diana_coman:	not an issue at all, only I had even forgotten that the cmd required such a thing, so I ended up with the equivalent of * & consequently a full list; not that it wasn't funny	[21:22]
jfw:	ah, yeah it wraps the underlying irc command a bit more that way. I'd prefer that behavior actually; might fit in with the tab completion work since that requires tracking the names.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	given the length of results, it provided a good test case for the new scrolling too!	[21:26]
diana_coman:	hello cruciform, how's the study in countryside charms, cottages and peaceful internet?	[21:29]
cruciform:	diana_coman, hey! notwithstanding 1Mbit internet, pretty great – though had a jackdaw starve to death and fall down the chimney this morn	[21:30]
diana_coman:	huh, with all the stuff around, how did it manage such feat	[21:32]
diana_coman:	I suddenly remember when I was hugging the router in Devon, trying to remain connected to Eulora, lol	[21:33]
cruciform:	I think you're onto something regarding the masks being a Londonthing – none to be seen at Knole Park today	[21:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-06-03 17:13:45 diana_coman: here I barely saw any masks at all at any time; gotta be London the worst, huh.	[21:33]
cruciform:	The stupid bird wasn't stuck or anything – it just chose to chirp away for a coupla days, then expire. Kinda like people, I guess	[21:34]
diana_coman:	well, if nobody cared to kill it despite all the noise…	[21:36]
cruciform:	that was my idea, but my hosts are delicate souls	[21:37]
cruciform:	"the damn bird is waking us up at 6am every morning!" "so, light the fire!"	[21:37]
diana_coman:	eh, 6am is close to late for countryside so I can see their point too!	[21:37]
cruciform:	lol, definitely pushing the average wakeup time back	[21:38]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/ffdgdfgdfg/ << Bimbo Club — ffdgdfgdfg	[00:03]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/annoying-fetlife-trends/ << Bimbo Club — Annoying fetlife trends	[00:06]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6092020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/09/2020	[09:00]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/10/dg-agenda-20200610/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.06.10	[16:05]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/an-introduction-to-metaphysics/ << Trilema — An introduction to metaphysics	[18:47]
diana_coman:	!!up gdrz1927	[19:19]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[19:19]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia gdrz1927	[19:19]
deedbot:	gdrz1927 voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:19]
diana_coman:	hello gdrz1927	[19:20]
gdrz1927:	hello diana_coman	[19:25]
gdrz1927:	this is a temporary account, i stumbled upon all this trb/tmsr thing and i'm currently trying to figure it out… really exciting	[19:28]
diana_coman:	well, a bit late for both the party and the dramaz but on the bright side, there's no hurry anymore so …take your time, I guess.	[19:59]
diana_coman:	cruciform – meant to say, do use the log from my blog e.g http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/ esp when you link	[21:33]
diana_coman:	because the old one is set to be axed ; (when I get around to do it but it will still be done)	[21:34]
diana_coman:	well, and anyone else who doesn't want to have broken links afterwards but anyway.	[21:35]
cruciform:	diana_coman, will do!	[21:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: for patching old links, it looks like the anchor IDs on the blogged pages match those from the ossabot database; is that so? then do you have a suggested way to derive the middle part of the URL (/yyyy/mm/dd/ossasepia-logs-for…)?	[21:57]
jfw:	I'm adding the raw archives to my weekly backup.	[21:58]
jfw:	ah, that goes for the #trilema links too.	[21:59]
diana_coman:	jfw the main reason why I haven't rushed with turning the plug off on the old logger is that I haven't yet got around to make the script to update the links	[22:00]
diana_coman:	it's doable but the script needs to be done and once that is done, I can finally get rid of the shit.	[22:00]
diana_coman:	the links for #trilema chan though would need to point to the logs on trilema.com now and I haven't checked but it may possibly be a different mapping required there (beyond just the obvious change of site, ofc)	[22:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: alright, I'll update my links once the mapping is available.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	given the full size of the archive + the fact that I anyway don't have it all, I am not that keen on importing the #t log too as articles though perhaps I should do it as a humongous one and link there at least easily, huh	[22:03]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027000 – this is true and on purpose, exactly to help with the mapping: the anchor ID is exactly the same, matching, indeed	[22:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-10 21:57:25 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman: for patching old links, it looks like the anchor IDs on the blogged pages match those from the ossabot database; is that so? then do you have a suggested way to derive the middle part of the URL (/yyyy/mm/dd/ossasepia-logs-for…)?	[22:11]
diana_coman:	for getting the rest: there's unfortunately the added headache of the date basically; ie the easy way is to simply extract the day and convert to the corresponding title as it's straightforward; the trouble though is that for the #o import I didn't fake the publish date so one either needs to rely on mpwp auto-completion (uhm) or otherwise extract first those too	[22:13]
diana_coman:	starting with May 2020, it gets easier as there's only one page per month but sadly I didn't think of that from the start	[22:14]
jfw:	could draw up a table relating start and/or end ID, title, and publish date	[22:17]
diana_coman:	myeah, pretty much what it ends up as indeed; though at least I can get it easily from the db.	[22:19]
jfw:	will bbl	[22:21]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/11/dg-agenda-20200611/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.06.11	[03:09]
jfw:	I'	[16:00]
jfw:	I'll be out at the 'camp' again today.	[16:00]
diana_coman:	enjoy!	[16:06]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks for your feedback on my agendas	[21:53]
cruciform:	this is probably a stupid question, but – what would it take to boost your rating of me to 2?	[21:54]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/12/dg-agenda-20200612/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.06.12	[04:12]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6102020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/10/2020	[08:26]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6112020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/11/2020	[08:38]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027020 – why do you want that rating?	[10:04]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-11 21:54:29 (#ossasepia) cruciform: this is probably a stupid question, but – what would it take to boost your rating of me to 2?	[10:04]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/o-vaca-cu-cabina-si-un-bou-cu-torpedou/ << Trilema — O vaca cu cabina si-un bou cu torpedou	[16:06]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/12/eulorossa-animata/ << Ossa Sepia — Eulorossa Animata	[17:02]
diana_coman:	waves	[21:00]
jfw:	waves back	[21:02]
jfw:	still looking for that writeup, it's, uh, it's in here somewhere!!	[21:03]
diana_coman:	jfw well, possibly under the review of this week?	[21:04]
jfw:	must be.	[21:04]
diana_coman:	cruciform – hopefully I didn't get you stuck with that question, did I?	[21:04]
diana_coman:	dorion what happened in the end with that Tuesday article?	[21:10]
cruciform:	diana_coman, perhaps I'm focusing on the purpose rather than the causes? ie. better to focus on acting in the right way to improve rating, rather than getting the rating itself? http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027033	[21:20]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-12 21:04:51 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: cruciform – hopefully I didn't get you stuck with that question, did I?	[21:20]
cruciform:	though I confess, I haven't really grokked the source article (despite several reads)	[21:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform – I asked you why you want the rating to try and figure out the extent of your confusion there, because your original question does more to point out that sort of trouble than asking much	[21:23]
diana_coman:	so literally – what do you think that rating gives you or why do you want it to start with?	[21:23]
diana_coman:	but take your time if you need it, as it is I need to go today in some 5 minutes anyway	[21:24]
diana_coman:	so it's no rush, can wait until tomorrow for sure	[21:24]
cruciform:	diana_coman, ok; I'll think about it, and ask tomorrow	[21:24]
billymg:	~40k lines removed from mp-wp, almost 30% and gets it under 100k lines (~97k). compare to previous round of snips	[00:20]
billymg:	i just finished reviewing the patch and making notes about what was removed. next i will deploy on my own site and then publish in an article	[00:21]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/notes-upon-notes-and-comments-of-comments-for-now-and-forever-amen/ << Trilema — Notes upon notes and comments of comments, for now and forever, Amen.	[01:19]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/girl-interrupted/ << Trilema — Girl, interrupted	[17:09]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027043 – this sounds great, billymg, looking forward to the article.	[21:07]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-13 00:20:39 (#ossasepia) billymg: ~40k lines removed from mp-wp, almost 30% and gets it under 100k lines (~97k). compare to previous round of snips	[21:07]
jfw:	agreed; I find myself now wondering how on earth it still needs those 97k without even the JS… probably lots of copy-paste based code twiddling	[21:09]
diana_coman:	jfw – while I can't say I know the full answer to that, from what I recall, the code has a lot of various check-this-and-check-that, all sorts of "cases" and whatnots	[21:10]
jfw:	"what if the user prefers writing upside down" etc	[21:11]
diana_coman:	that too! but I meant more as in trying to list and cover all environment's warts/surprises one by one.	[21:13]
diana_coman:	cruciform – you around?	[21:13]
diana_coman:	jfw – what's in your publishing queue for next week?	[21:15]
jfw:	hm ok. I suppose I'll have a closer look once the patch is out, since we're considering including it in support & hosting offerings. (re WP)	[21:16]
diana_coman:	sounds sensible	[21:16]
jfw:	diana_coman: wallet is first up, then, let me see…	[21:17]
diana_coman:	well, I'm not even quite expecting anything further than next up anymore, lol	[21:18]
jfw:	fair… but anyways, a bitcoin block feeder script and notes from my latest sync (finally done now!) would be another.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	sounds all good and interesting to me; if again all-on-one-side-only, as well.	[21:22]
jfw:	I could do some photos of walking in woods…	[21:23]
diana_coman:	come to think of it, maybe one of the bots should get extended with a betting service for each announced deadline :D	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jfw that sounds lovely too, why not do it anyway?	[21:24]
jfw:	there's also the jwrd landing page – I wasn't thinking of that as blog but it's in the queue all the same.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	it can count as publishing, sure	[21:25]
jfw:	and yeah, the photos will be nice.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	and yeah, it makes sense if it's at the front of the queue too; only …just do it already, what can it take so long.	[21:26]
jfw:	I got a bunch of those building up huh.	[21:27]
diana_coman:	not like it gets any different if you ignore it/postpone it/don't-want-to-start-on-it any longer	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw – did the week end up all the more productive for not looking at it too closely?	[21:28]
jfw:	lol, notrly (as you're no doubt unsurprised)	[21:29]
diana_coman:	well, I'm by default all willing to hear what works best for others!	[21:29]
jfw:	in other findings, 'hexdump /dev/urandom' doesn't work as well for demonstrating Ctrl-C interrupts as it does for exposing socialist queuing algorithms that rank machine output equally important to human input such that the more verbose the machine, the longer it survives. Main offenders appear to be ssh and tmux, while screen, xterm and linux console are fine	[21:54]
diana_coman:	ahaha, not-bad description	[21:54]
billymg:	jfw: yeah, there's definitley a lot more that can be removed. i even managed to get a few more easy snips in on this patch (down to ~89k total lines now) by removing some extraneous filesystem libraries	[19:30]
billymg:	i just deployed to billymg.com, so it's live now	[19:30]
billymg:	i think for the next slimming patch i might try to write a script to do some static analysis of which methods are created but never called	[19:32]
billymg:	jfw: out of those extra lines removed almost 6k was for a zip archive library lol	[19:35]
billymg:	previously used for people who wanted to "install" plugins via the web UI (or maybe it was themes, or both), rather than just manually copying them to their respective directories	[19:37]
jfw:	billymg: the ad-hoc, informally specified, bug-ridden and slow implementation of half of V, aha	[20:37]
diana_coman:	billymg – iirc some of your changes did touch the default theme(s) so hm, if I nuked those entirely and have my own, what do I need to port over?	[20:56]
billymg:	diana_coman: you mean some of my changes in previous patches? (but yes, this one removed some bits from the included themes as well)	[21:03]
diana_coman:	yes, I mean some of the changes in previous patches (I didn't see this patch at all, yet)	[21:03]
billymg:	diana_coman: hrm, i think the only changes were for the js text selection thing, which was later removed by jfw	[21:04]
billymg:	so that one can be safely ignored	[21:04]
diana_coman:	cool then	[21:04]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah, i would recommend just keeping the directory of your current custom theme as is. the included themes can be safely nuked for sure (server-side selection is handled in the footnotes.php as of this patch)	[21:09]
billymg:	same for anyone else considering using this patch, if you spent any time customizing your theme just keep as is	[21:09]
billymg:	i'll try to get it posted later today or tomorrow. i hadn't done a full fresh deploy since the patch removing tinymce and so i had to double and triple check everything before flipping the switch	[21:14]
diana_coman:	billymg no rush at all	[21:14]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/06/15/jfw-review-week-of-8-jun-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 8 Jun 2020	[07:56]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/tuesday-after-christmas/ << Trilema — Tuesday after Christmas	[17:44]
feedbot:	http://billymg.com/2020/06/the-mp-wp-weightloss-program-removing-javascript/ << billymg — The MP-WP Weightloss Program: Removing JavaScript	[19:06]
diana_coman:	billymg – the latest vpatch seems to pack quite some changes indeed; is there still a way to change the permalink from the gui while editing a draft?	[21:08]
diana_coman:	I guess I'll deploy it on yh and then wait to hear if there are any complaints, lol	[21:10]
billymg:	diana_coman: yup! you can manually change the slug from the same location, the input is now always showing, instead of a click-to-show js thing	[22:00]
billymg:	the server-side auto-generation of one when first saving a new draft also works, along with sanitization of what you enter into the custom permalink field	[22:01]
diana_coman:	sounds quite good, I'll have to make some time to catch up with the latest mp-wp!	[22:03]
billymg:	i think you'll like it, definitely	[22:04]
billymg:	it was getting to where when i switched back and forth between my local install and the old one on billymg.com the old one just felt painfully bloated and clunky	[22:05]
diana_coman:	ah, I don't doubt that, it's more squeezing some time to read through the patches, press it all and then do the dance of changing it in place without messing up anything else.	[22:06]
diana_coman:	heh, sounds exactly as it should be, inded	[22:06]
diana_coman:	indeed	[22:06]
billymg:	makes sense, yeah i might look into writing some deploy scripts for myself	[22:06]
billymg:	not sure if anyone's got anything like that already for mp-wp	[22:07]
diana_coman:	I don't have anything but I'd like to have !	[22:07]
diana_coman:	lolz	[22:07]
billymg:	i thought about it before as perhaps a vpatch containing my config, that could be manually replayed on top of a new press	[22:07]
billymg:	kk, will share for sure if i make progress on it	[22:08]
diana_coman:	billymg how did you deploy the new version now?	[22:08]
billymg:	tar'd the fresh mp-wp from this patch and placed on the server, manually copied over configs, themes, upload/download directories etc	[22:09]
billymg:	double/triple checked file permissions and anything that tripped me up in the past	[22:09]
diana_coman:	ouch	[22:09]
billymg:	then mv prevDir prevDir_BAK && mv mp-wp prevDir	[22:09]
billymg:	haha yeah, ouch indeed	[22:10]
diana_coman:	tbh what I deployed so far on existing installations I literally patched but the patches were way smaller/touching way less, hm.	[22:11]
billymg:	it could work, but yeah for a change this big i felt like starting with a fresh install	[22:12]
billymg:	i gotta run into town now, will bbl	[22:13]
diana_coman:	laters	[22:13]
diana_coman:	jfw re those postponed tasks, the question would be why did you kick them for later at "do" time? but otherwise for the quick-and-obvious, the conclusion would be not as much that you don't care about improving it but that you care more about something else there (whatever it might be); in other words, it doesn't burn	[21:20]
diana_coman:	yet.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	and sure, re "improvement", you'd rather have the option/keep it seemingly on; it's a thing this too, people want to have the option, not to actually do something with it.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	as you say too, you'll "be always accosted by chores demanding attention that would have been better done earlier" but… that doesn't burn either ie you consider you'll still be able to deal with it (and you probably will, too, sure, though not without cost).	[21:25]
diana_coman:	that cost though is in the future, while the cost of changing is in the present and so the present cost weighs more and so it goes.	[21:27]
jfw:	nod	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw – I'll only add that you would be able to do so much more and of the exact type you enjoy otherwise, for the cost of that hated change in the present; but well, saying it doesn't count anywhere near figuring it out yourself.	[21:34]
jfw:	thanks for the saying anyway though.	[21:35]
jfw:	"why did you kick them for later" – seems to be a matter of stealing time for things I want because I don't trust myself to make time / believe that there will be more time later if I don't	[21:53]
sonofawitch:	2020-02-17 15:58:38 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: thing is: overall it starts to add up to some quite successful self-tripping you got yourself there, heh; on one hand you are all "this is what needs to be done so will – glumly if need be – do it" + "there is not that much time nor need for leisure" and on the other hand – not all that surprisingly either – at any chance there is, you steal the leisure only marking it as "work", pretty much.	[21:53]
diana_coman:	jfw – you know, managing yourself includes making time for fun, for sure!	[22:01]
diana_coman:	if that's really the thing, perhaps have a go at it that way – literally pick something fun as "compensation" for doing the needed not-fun and keep to both; at the end of the day, the honesty with yourself is really the most important part, no matter what.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	well, not to mention that it's way more enjoyable to be on top of what happens when instead of being blown about and playing catch-up with it all, but anyways.	[22:07]
jfw:	"nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" (-F. Bacon, apparently) comes to mind, in the sense of staying on top like that requiring one to focus on things at the right time	[22:15]
whaack:	billymg: I'm setting up mpwp with your new weightloss patch. When I log into my dashboard I can see all my content. But neither the homepage nor the individual pages are displaying any content. Here are the commands I ran on my server. /var/www/html is the root directory of my blog and ~/mp-wp-no-js/ is the directory of the freshly pressed mp-wp. I'll keep investigating, but maybe you have a quick	[22:23]
whaack:	solution for my problem.	[22:23]
jfw:	whaack: missing a link there?	[22:27]
whaack:	jfw: yes thank you. the commands I ran => http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=A1zV	[22:30]
jfw:	as a general practice, that should be something like "mv html html.bak" rather than "rm -rf" prior to verifying that it actually works :P	[22:38]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/16/updating-your-old-log-links/ << Ossa Sepia — Updating Your Old Log Links	[22:52]
whaack:	jfw: I made a backup of everything first, but I gather that the above procedure of (of making and then removing .bak files) would help prevent against rm slip ups.	[22:53]
billymg:	whaack: what you did looks similar to what i did (except as jfw said, moving the old directory to BAK insted of rm'ing)	[22:53]
billymg:	my guess is file permissions	[22:53]
billymg:	i would look and make sure all the files in there are 744	[22:55]
billymg:	err, 644 rather for the files, 755 for the directories	[22:56]
billymg:	do you see any errors in the apache error log?	[22:56]
whaack:	billymg: yes, there was one error I took care of, and another one now I'm seeing when I access ztkfg through the dashboard.	[22:58]
billymg:	whaack: do you mind pasting the error?	[23:01]
whaack:	billymg: I made a few changes months ago to some php files to fix some problems I had with mpwp working with my local version of php. I need to find my notes that I either wrote locally, on younghands, in #o, or on ztkfg. My other plan is to press mpwp to the penultimate patch and then run diff -qr on the pressed directory with my backup directory to see what the small changes I made were.	[23:01]
jfw:	whaack: it's not about rm slip-ups so much as optimism I suppose. "this is 99.999% going to work so I'm fine with restoring from remote backups in worst case" vs. "this is a big change I don't have much experience making so best keep a quick + known-good way to roll back if it fails"	[23:02]
billymg:	whaack: ah, i see. i thought for ztkfg you were running on anyserver though, no?	[23:02]
whaack:	billymg: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=YY3C	[23:02]
billymg:	ah, i get those all the time, those are just warnings and shouldn't actually break anything (i've been meaning to fix those but just havne't gotten to it yet)	[23:04]
billymg:	whaack: you said there's one more error that's displaying in the dashboard?	[23:04]
billymg:	as in, spit out into the markup rathre than the error log	[23:05]
whaack:	billymg: I am running on ubuntu with php 5.6.4	[23:06]
whaack:	billymg: No, the error occurs in the apache log files when I access the dashboard. The error is: WordPress database error Expression #1 of ORDER BY clause is not in SELECT list, references column 'ztkfgdb.wpmp_posts.post_date' which is not in SELECT list; this is incompatible with DISTINCT for query SELECT DISTINCT YEAR(post_date) AS yyear, MONTH(post_date) AS mmonth FROM wpmp_posts WHERE	[23:07]
whaack:	post_type = 'post' ORDER BY post_date DESC, referer: http://ztkfg.com/wp-admin/	[23:07]
jfw:	billymg: possibly the 'fix' for the warnings etc. is 'php4 genesis' :D	[23:10]
jfw:	one concern would be, can we find a decent manual for that, since the 'docs' are of course a php-powered living document wikihorror.	[23:13]
billymg:	whaack: hmm, seems like a legitimate mysql error then	[23:14]
billymg:	though i can't say i know what is causing it (and haven't seen it before myself)	[23:15]
billymg:	i would maybe try to search for that error and see if anything comes up	[23:16]
jfw:	the error sounds like it's from mysql so rather search for the query that causes it	[23:17]
billymg:	jfw: good point, would be good to know the offending query	[23:23]
billymg:	whaack: some of what i'm seeing elsewhere is that this error can be suppressed by disabling 'strict mode' in your mysql	[23:25]
billymg:	not suggesting that's the ideal longterm solution but maybe just to get it running again for now	[23:26]
billymg:	(confirmed that billymg.com's server's mysql is not in strict mode, so possible this is it)	[23:28]
whaack:	billymg: sry, my connection got dropped. I'll twiddle with the file permissions and see if turning off strict mode in mysql helps	[23:55]
billymg:	whaack: no worries	[00:12]
billymg:	whaack: and if you do find that the case was that your fixes got blown away with the fresh install, maybe you could compile them up in a patch for mp-wp after you get it working again	[00:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-06-16 18:28:22 whaack: billymg: I made a few changes months ago to some php files to fix some problems I had with mpwp working with my local version of php. I need to find my notes that I either wrote locally, on younghands, in #o, or on ztkfg. My other plan is to press mpwp to the penultimate patch and then run diff -qr on the pressed directory with my backup directory to see what the small changes I made were.	[00:14]
whaack:	billymg: the problem i had was fixed by setting the permissions in my themes dir to 755 for directories and 644 for files as you stated above. Maybe this problem could have been avoided by running "cp -r -perserve=all" when copying back my custom themes dir. The only other remaining weird was that I got the following error when trying to load individual pages:	[02:15]
whaack:	[Tue Jun 16 23:35:09.402436 2020] [:error] [pid 15883] [client 201.237.50.38:41192] PHP Fatal error: Call to undefined function wp_enqueue_script() in /var/www/html/wp-content/themes/default/header.php on line 33	[02:15]
whaack:	I commented out <?php if ( is_singular() ) wp_enqueue_script( 'comment-reply' ); ?>	[02:15]
billymg:	whaack: ahh, glad to hear it's working	[03:50]
billymg:	whaack: re: the theme error, that's a good catch. the default themes had some javascript for placing comment reply boxes after the parent comment with threaded replies enabled. i chopped that out of the included themes but anyone bringing over their existing theme will likely run into this as well	[03:52]
billymg:	diana_coman: ^ the above probably a better answer to your earlier question	[03:54]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-14 20:56:56 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg – iirc some of your changes did touch the default theme(s) so hm, if I nuked those entirely and have my own, what do I need to port over?	[03:54]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6152020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/15/2020	[06:57]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6162020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/16/2020	[07:04]
jfw:	billymg: since the #select was formerly done in the themes and I gather now in the 'footnotes' processor, perhaps that would need to be reverted too in one's theme?	[21:08]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027177 – ah, this rings a bell and I'll need to have a look because iirc I have one level nested replies (though not sure it has anything to do with the theme as such, hm)	[21:10]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 03:54:19 (#ossasepia) billymg: diana_coman: ^ the above probably a better answer to your earlier question	[21:10]
jfw:	whaack, possibly you have some restrictive 'umask' causing the permissions trouble in the first place, but yes cp -p can be helpful	[21:11]
jfw:	Working through the process for a demonstration, deploying TRB in a fresh environment – even knowing where to look for all the pieces – is definitely a pain; and my own wallet too though less so	[21:15]
diana_coman:	lol, a more familiar pain with own wallet?	[21:18]
jfw:	V alone or at least the one I'm using so far doesn't get you over the hill of 'resolve this project name / key / whatever to a set of files ready to press'	[21:18]
jfw:	diana_coman: perhaps, but own wallet has fewer pieces needing to be rounded up so far	[21:19]
diana_coman:	that sounds like a script being sorely needed	[21:20]
diana_coman:	and a write up afterwards.	[21:21]
jfw:	that's probably the practical approach, yeah; but needing a special unique script for this one thing grates. I need a bitcoin-bootstrapper, why? haven't I already bootstrapped a unix and V?	[21:23]
diana_coman:	well, that route it's already "why do I need to bootstrap V, haven't I already bootstrapped a unix?" heh	[21:25]
diana_coman:	the "why" in the end is simple really – because there's no better alternative available and no, can't wait "however long it takes" until that better alternative is "ready" etc	[21:27]
jfw:	"that's how we ended up in this software mess in the first place" sticks in my head but I can't disagree	[21:31]
jfw:	comes right back to balancing present vs future costs.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	no, it's not that how we ended up in this software mess in the first place, heh	[21:34]
diana_coman:	choosing what is as opposed to what one might want is certainly not "how one ends up in mess"	[21:35]
diana_coman:	note though that choosing what has to be chosen now doesn't mean that it has to remain like that forever or anything of the sort	[21:36]
diana_coman:	you can argue perhaps that making a script now lowers the pain and thus makes the problem less visible/easier to ignore – in which case fine, don't make the script and keep the pain until the root trouble gets solved, sure	[21:37]
diana_coman:	only I don't think it's your clients who are supposed to either solve it or wait until it's solved.	[21:38]
jfw:	I think I get it – or at least I've got as far as I'm going to from chewing on this example.	[21:48]
jfw:	this one script won't be creating bigger problems, in itself; my thinking was that by using something you become more dependent on it + the system it's a part of. perhaps that's more a result of using it blindly or allowing that to happen than of the mere use though ("don't blame the drug")	[21:52]
diana_coman:	jfw, that is exactly what I mean above by makes the problem less visible to some extent; but this visible always depends inevitable on who and how is looking, heh.	[21:56]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:37:35 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: you can argue perhaps that making a script now lowers the pain and thus makes the problem less visible/easier to ignore – in which case fine, don't make the script and keep the pain until the root trouble gets solved, sure	[21:56]
diana_coman:	inevitably*	[21:57]
jfw:	I'm just slower to figure out what I'm arguing then!	[22:01]
diana_coman:	well, came to rant and ended up arguing – it might take a while to switch!	[22:07]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/a-cursory-look-at-the-infamous-trb-wedge-bug << The Tar Pit — A cursory look at the infamous TRB "wedge" bug	[15:07]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027181 << correct, though worth pointing out this addition was already present in this patch. i'll add a note about it to that article	[16:05]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:08:28 (#ossasepia) jfw: billymg: since the #select was formerly done in the themes and I gather now in the 'footnotes' processor, perhaps that would need to be reverted too in one's theme?	[16:05]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027182 << to be clear, nested replies still work (i tested these after seeing that some blogs, including ossasepia, utilize them). it's just that the textarea for entering the reply won't be placed under the comment that is being replied to	[16:06]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-17 21:10:08 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027177 – ah, this rings a bell and I'll need to have a look because iirc I have one level nested replies (though not sure it has anything to do with the theme as such, hm)	[16:06]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-fud-the-king-of-the-hill-and-so-on/ << Trilema — The FUD, the king of the hill and… so on	[16:57]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027211 – ah, got it now; shouldn't be a problem.	[21:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-18 16:06:37 (#ossasepia) billymg: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1027182 << to be clear, nested replies still work (i tested these after seeing that some blogs, including ossasepia, utilize them). it's just that the textarea for entering the reply won't be placed under the comment that is being replied to	[21:28]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/19/after-the-rain/ << Ossa Sepia — After the Rain	[12:40]
diana_coman:	ossabot is fully retired, don't expect it back (nor its site, nor the ftp, nor anything from the whole pile of resources of all sorts that are finally freed up for more productive use); archives are and will remain at http://ossasepia.com/raw-logs-and-archives/ ; real-time and past logs are and will remain permanent at http://ossasepia.com/category/logs/	[15:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-story-of-kitty-and-her-kitten/ << Trilema — The story of Kitty and her kitten	[17:02]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026261 – bvt, in potentially interesting follow ups on this, on one hand it turned out that at least in some cases the "reverted file" was not even desirable ie an artefact of other trimmings-on-the-large-codebase but on the other hand I did end up having to pretty much script the "point out the exact offending file, stupid" part,	[20:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-23 20:40:06 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: and yeah, comment gets one out of it – but the main issue was figuring out where the exact revert was	[20:28]
diana_coman:	even if a quick and dirty/partial piped cmd line sort of thing.	[20:28]
diana_coman:	the conclusion from use is therefore that this sort of "loop" may or may not be fine, up to operator to decide on a case by case basis; but there has to be a better way to point to the actual problem, even if it ends up perhaps as a separate command or even outside v.sh entirely.	[20:30]
whaack:	diana_coman: if you're around today I'd like to discuss my desire to become active in YH again.	[17:16]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/a-story-of-candy-but-with-an-eye-rather-than-a-why/ << Trilema — A story of candy, but with an eye rather than a why.	[19:31]
diana_coman:	whaack – I'm around as usual, sure; what's on your mind?	[21:04]
whaack:	diana_coman: There's a lot on my mind but essentially I badly want to go back to making an effort to make "the right move at every juncture." I also miss engaging with the people in here and having a project to work on.	[21:15]
diana_coman:	whaack – so what's stopping you? not like I hold anyone back from engaging or contributing, am I.	[21:16]
whaack:	diana_coman: Only "my own worst enemy" lol	[21:17]
diana_coman:	how's that building otc network going?	[21:18]
whaack:	diana_coman: it's not going, I've really been up to ~nothing except learning some flashy flamenco hand movements and scales	[21:19]
whaack:	i'm working on an article right now on muscle control/isolation so I can at least publish something interesting i've learned.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	whaack – did you keep up that daily guitar practice, only not writing the logs up or not publishing them or what?	[21:23]
whaack:	diana_coman: My blog is only missing 5 practice logs, but it's been 17 days. I've been practicing but I stopped keeping the practices structured.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	didn't the structure help or why?	[21:26]
whaack:	the structure helped tremendously. stopping the organized practices was some form of militant stupidity or something, idk	[21:28]
whaack:	the other concept that I learned from trilema/younghands – always looking for the upstream problems, has helped a lot as well	[21:29]
diana_coman:	I bet it did, lol	[21:29]
whaack:	for example, I learned I needed to isolate control of my muscles, so I thought "hm – what is the real problem with my technqiue. It's not that I can't make this or that sound. That is a symptom. THe problem is I don't know how to properly control my muscles" so then I read a book about muscle control, unrelated to playing music,	[21:30]
diana_coman:	that sounds like looking for causes and closer to root	[21:31]
whaack:	diana_coman: anyways I've also been thinking about something you said I never responded to which was basically that there's no reason to have a distinction between fun & what one needs to do	[21:33]
diana_coman:	aha; what came out of that thinking then?	[21:35]
whaack:	I remember reading a time ago some book or article (i forget the source) that had this quote ~ "a gentleman will pay for the privilege to be in command a horse drawn chariot. but if instead the gentleman is paid to do the same he'll consider it work and won't want to do it."	[21:37]
whaack:	And I remember when I read I thought to myself "yes, I am like that too."	[21:39]
diana_coman:	lol, what, having all the troubles with none the means?	[21:40]
diana_coman:	sure, I know the sort of thing you mean – in plain terms it's called tripping over yourself, really.	[21:42]
whaack:	But thinking on what you said and reflecting on how I feel now and how I felt when I was more active in yh I think that the mentality of "doing other things than what needs to be done because they're more fun or because what needs to be done is categorized as 'work' and 'work'='bad'" is again militant stupidity	[21:42]
whaack:	diana_coman: what do you mean by all the troubles with none the means?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	all the troubles of late-time/already-degenerate "gentlemen" (because the term like that without clear anchoring in time means ~nothing at all)	[21:44]
diana_coman:	with none of their means to afford them, at least	[21:44]
diana_coman:	you know, by that standard Oscar Wilde was very much the gentleman, I suppose he could /did even outdo them since he set his mind to it; onth I doubt e.g. Sir Burton would have given him much "gentleman".	[21:46]
diana_coman:	and that keeping it roughly similar time and space, at least	[21:47]
whaack:	I think the purpose of the word gentlemen in that (mis)quote is that the person can afford to not be paid. I am not connecting myself w/ someone in that position, I am only connecting with "label something as work, and stupid me tries to avoid it"	[21:49]
diana_coman:	whaack – anyway, getting back to present day and yourself: yes, it's quite militant stupidity and at any rate it's certainly not helping you any.	[21:49]
diana_coman:	ah, then it was too lofty a quote, lol; there's more there than just "work" but anyways, no need to fully go that rabbit hole right now, let it be a detour for another time perhaps.	[21:50]
whaack:	right, and to be clear as to why I think it's militant stupidity – it is that not only do I fall behind in personal development, productivity, $$, whatever – I also am having less fun	[21:50]
diana_coman:	good that you are honest enough to admit it.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	whaack – is there something specific you are interested in atm?	[21:52]
whaack:	diana_coman: tbh nothing jumps to mind	[21:54]
whaack:	I've been thinking though that I need to write a post-mortem for TheFleet, going over why that project failed	[21:55]
diana_coman:	whaack – for how long have you been thinking that you need to etc?	[21:56]
whaack:	since about the time I started the guitar practice logs	[21:56]
diana_coman:	whaack – why didn't you just do it?	[21:57]
diana_coman:	you know, if you think that I need to read that or it "has to be done" or something of the sort – the answer is no, on both counts.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	whaack – do you know why and how it failed?	[21:59]
whaack:	no, it was for myself not for you	[21:59]
whaack:	and it was to answer that question of "how and why it failed" . I am not sure I know the answer.	[22:00]
whaack:	I'm not sure why I didn't reengage but I think it was because I was afraid that I would fade away again, and I still have that concern although only slightly really	[22:02]
diana_coman:	what can I say; on the face of it, a post-mortem sounds sensible indeed, except there's no reason why it couldn't have been done by now if it was indeed pressing and therefore the conclusion is that it's not pressing, so it can wait as it already did, not much difference either way.	[22:03]
diana_coman:	whaack – did you figure out why the fade away in the first place?	[22:04]
whaack:	diana_coman: yes, related to the "living warning," if you will	[22:07]
diana_coman:	whaack – well, pick yourself a deadline for that post-mortem if you actually want to do it and do it; or let me know if you don't want all that much to do it; either way we'll see from there.	[22:11]
whaack:	diana_coman: alright. I'll have it done before Thursday the 25th of June.	[22:16]
diana_coman:	sounds good.	[22:17]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6172020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/17/2020	[05:14]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6182020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/18/2020	[05:19]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6192020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/19/2020	[05:23]
whaack:	billymg: What are the characters for the codeblocks opening and codeblocks closing now? I don't see them in http://billymg.com/2020/05/updated-vpatch-add-embeddable-codeblocks-and-the-server-side-select-mechanism/ . The characters in http://billymg.com/2020/04/updated-patch-code-embed-plugin-for-mp-wp/ didn't work. Consequently the codeblock in my article	[20:33]
whaack:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/02/ircbot-no-suicide-on-reconnect/ is no longer rendering correctly.	[20:33]
whaack:	billymg: I figured it out. The regex was here http://billymg.com/2020/05/updated-vpatch-add-embeddable-codeblocks-and-the-server-side-select-mechanism/#S1-L223 . But I have not got the color highlighting yet	[20:38]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/all-is-old-and-all-is-new << The Tar Pit — All is old and all is new…	[21:27]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6202020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/20/2020	[04:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'd like to take a break from the reviews because yeah, haven't found how to – or perhaps more like the motivation to – make them more useful to me and less of an external chore where I go through the motions with seemingly ever less enthusiasm. I understand the point of them is not just to say "oh look I did plenty of stuff" – after all I've been doing that since as long as I can	[08:13]
jfw:	remember – but to change oneself; and that sort of change hurts; and that I'll have to want it badly enough and find ways that work for me to get there.	[08:13]
jfw:	And indeed I've made many a painful change before too so… not giving up there at all.	[08:16]
jfw:	(The change here being, basically, becoming the master of my own time.)	[08:25]
jfw:	In other news, I've been watering the v.pl garden; fixes for quite a few issues coming very soon.	[08:27]
diana_coman:	jfw ok, sounds fine to me.	[09:40]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/unnecessary-muscle-binding-the-great-impediment-to-musical-and-athletic-performance/ << whaack — Unnecessary Muscle Binding – The Great Impediment To Musical and Athletic Performance	[16:23]
billymg:	whaack: `[diff[ … ]]` for diff syntax highlighting, `[plaintext[ … ]]` (or anything else, since it'll be the default when there is no match) for no highlighting	[17:41]
billymg:	whaack: i also wanted to ask, back when you were building your desktop, did you end up finding any good parts stores anywhere in the country? (i.e. better than just using lulazon and eating the extra shipping/tax cost)	[17:45]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/22/eulora-client-graphics-main-types-and-formats/ << Ossa Sepia — Eulora Client Graphics: Main Types and Formats	[18:11]
whaack:	billymg: thanks. The best store I found here through hanbot's recommendation was https://www.cococo.co.cr/ – but their supplies are limited. I wound up getting most of my parts through https://www.pcgamingcr.com/ but I had a ton of trouble with them. (They scammed me by selling used parts.)	[18:23]
billymg:	whaack: sweet, thanks for the info, will check them out	[18:26]
billymg:	whaack: uggh, neither seem to have samsung SSDs, or at least not listed on their websites	[18:34]
whaack:	billymg: yup, I couldn't find those here either :(	[18:38]
whaack:	billymg: anyways iirc cococo keeps an up to date inventory on their website but in general you have to call to figure out what these stores actually have in stock.	[18:44]
billymg:	whaack: gotcha	[18:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm trying for a concise intro/description of V, in the present (post-Republic) context. Does this about capture it: "versioning system that supports owner control of computing by placing primary focus on the change and explicit management of trust through strong cryptography" ?	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw – hm, what do you mean by "of computing" there?	[21:16]
jfw:	well, of the operation of one's own computers	[21:17]
jfw:	possibly a bit circular with "ownership of one's own"…	[21:17]
diana_coman:	it's more that the definition as you gave it doesn't do all that much – though it takes a few readings, hm.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	it's a bit tortured on various fences by the looks of it; for one thing, defining it as a versioning system cuts away an important part – the deployment of software that is usually not all that much the traditional concern of versioning systems	[21:20]
diana_coman:	jfw – what's the audience you have in mind there or is this blog/generic?	[21:22]
jfw:	it's the blog, yes – and partly for clarifying it for myself, heh.	[21:23]
jfw:	my grasp of what V does for deployment is basically to say that the other tools traditionally used for it aren't necessary	[21:23]
diana_coman:	ahaha, going for once fully-negative-space there (and that getting rid of all the other "tools" is not a tiny thing either at that, but it's more of a consequence than anything else)	[21:24]
diana_coman:	V is a complete solution in that sense, hence "the other tools […] aren't necessary"	[21:25]
jfw:	(though um, it's still known to lean on 'wget' etc.)	[21:25]
diana_coman:	well, it also still requires an OS!	[21:26]
diana_coman:	anyways, I wouldn't say that "other tools are not necessary" – it's more that the change is so fundamental that previous tools don't fit /don't have a useful place anymore; other tools though are still necessary – only they need to be built	[21:27]
diana_coman:	it changes the whole landscape if you want	[21:27]
diana_coman:	but let's rewind and try to grab it from some more concrete end perhaps	[21:27]
jfw:	alright	[21:28]
diana_coman:	so for one thing, V is not some particular implementation but essentially a paradigm for software	[21:30]
diana_coman:	and software as a whole, not just development, nor even just deployment, it goes all the way to even what software is	[21:31]
diana_coman:	sure, one can use V for some narrow part that they care about and it's true that the first implementation was just that, a very narrow thing in fact, but that doesn't mean much.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	and I suppose that the current state of V-use and development otherwise might give the impression that there isn't anything more to it either, huh	[21:35]
jfw:	I suppose I've tried to understand the species based on observations of what's shared by the known instances	[21:36]
diana_coman:	jfw – you know, I think your attempt and question there hits actually deeper (and well done for it, too) than you intended, lol	[21:37]
jfw:	haha, indeed	[21:37]
diana_coman:	jfw – so where did you start from, anyway? from the current implementations of V, is that what you mean by the instances?	[21:39]
jfw:	right	[21:39]
jfw:	heh, you know the one about the blind men and the elephant?	[21:40]
diana_coman:	that kind of locks you unhelpfully into some rather sterile and narrow mindframe, myeah (and I'll leave the tracing of the root cause there to each log reader)	[21:42]
diana_coman:	jfw – hm? doesn't come to mind, no.	[21:42]
jfw:	apparently a story that exists in many versions, but basically each man feels a different part of the elephant and extrapolates a completely different (& quite incomplete) picture of what an elephant is.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	ah, the fable, yes	[21:45]
diana_coman:	I can see the similarity, indeed	[21:46]
jfw:	https://allpoetry.com/The-Blind-Man-And-The-Elephant – possibly the main English version.	[21:47]
jfw:	ponders how to "see true v-elephant with mind's eye"	[21:49]
diana_coman:	the thing is, V is not just a different type of versioning system – a bit like a car is not just a faster cart, hm	[21:49]
diana_coman:	jfw – well, better start from the beginning as it were which indeed is not whatever implementation, no matter what claims are made otherwise; e.g. [http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory/?b=change&e=satellites#select][the change similar to that introduced by the understanding and controlling movement in terms of mass, impulse and energy, such as it occurs in the launching of	[21:51]
diana_coman:	satellites]	[21:51]
diana_coman:	damn, it still broke the link, didn't it	[21:52]
jfw:	space between the words in the text, yeah	[21:52]
diana_coman:	jfw – my, yrc can't recall previous line??	[21:53]
jfw:	nope :/	[21:53]
diana_coman:	jfw – why, why, why whyyyyyy	[21:54]
diana_coman:	the change similar to that introduced by the understanding and controlling movement in terms of mass, impulse and energy, such as it occurs in the launching of satellites	[21:54]
jfw:	because it's young still	[21:55]
diana_coman:	so based on the above, you can start perhaps with a broad definition of V as a new way of understanding software – and therefore, as a consequence of this deeper and more precise understanding, the resulting more efficient way of talking about software, developing (version controlling being only one part of that developing) software, deploying software, maintaining software and so on.	[21:56]
diana_coman:	jfw – well, yrc may be young and have all the time ahead of it indeed but what can I say, I'm getting older day by day here so pleaaaase: can haz tab-completion and last-line recall?	[21:57]
jfw:	yes; and kill/yank (cut/paste) for the input is needed too.	[21:59]
jfw:	"manage his investment of trust at all junctures so that he is never required to implicitly trust either an unknown code author, or a code snippet of unknown provenance." – hey I pretty much got that part, right?	[22:01]
diana_coman:	with that broad definition at hand to help you avoid the pitfalls of stupid compartmentalizing, narrow focus, childish pick-and-choose and other numerous afflictions of the "software industry/engineering", the next step is to review the stated principles at the root of it all:	[22:02]
jfw:	(but yes, paradigm rather than particular set of scripts was missing.)	[22:03]
diana_coman:	namely software being the property of those running it and identity being constructed by others' view, upon a fixed support	[22:03]
diana_coman:	jfw – trust is possibly the skin of that particular elephant and at least the word itself has been repeatedly brandied about for sure	[22:04]
diana_coman:	it might have been bandied, but I do like brandied better.	[22:06]
jfw:	mmm, brandytrust!	[22:07]
diana_coman:	quite, it can produce… intoxication!	[22:07]
jfw:	especially hazardous when pregnant with concepts & definitions	[22:08]
diana_coman:	ahahah, indeed!	[22:09]
diana_coman:	looking back at your original definition, I'm afraid there isn't much of it left though.	[22:10]
diana_coman:	making a first attempt at tightening up that previous definition:	[22:25]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 21:56:55 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: so based on the above, you can start perhaps with a broad definition of V as a new way of understanding software – and therefore, as a consequence of this deeper and more precise understanding, the resulting more efficient way of talking about software, developing (version controlling being only one part of that developing) software, deploying software, maintaining software and so on.	[22:25]
diana_coman:	V is a new conceptual framework for software, emerging from a better understanding of what software is and providing as main benefits the means for explicit, verifiable enforcement of software ownership by users as well as the correct incentives and supporting concepts for a qualitative jump in the way software is developed, deployed, maintained and evolved.	[22:25]
diana_coman:	jfw – does the above sound like the sort of concise definition you were looking for?	[22:25]
diana_coman:	it aims for a more practical intro so it necessarily leaves some stuff out/picks some to highlight.	[22:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: it's the sort of definition, yes – I don't know that I'll use it here directly though because if I'm to give a definition I'd want it to be one I fully understand myself (i.e. to have that new understanding of software & be able to explain why it's better)	[22:33]
jfw:	I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[22:34]
diana_coman:	jfw – ah, no need to use it directly anywhere, lol; and anyways, if not clear, ask further tomorrow or whenever, sure.	[22:36]
jfw:	yep, & thanks for the pointers.	[22:36]
diana_coman:	yw	[22:36]
diana_coman:	such excellent questions are a pleasure to answer, so…keep asking them!	[22:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6212020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/21/2020	[09:13]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6222020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/22/2020	[09:17]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/06/work-report-6232020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 6/23/2020	[09:24]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/of-wants-and-wanting-and-of-your-daughter/ << Trilema — Of wants, and wanting, and of your daughter.	[18:07]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/tuesday-after-christmas/ << Trilema — Tuesday after Christmas	[23:24]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-fud-the-king-of-the-hill-and-so-on/ << Trilema — The FUD, the king of the hill and… so on	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-story-of-kitty-and-her-kitten/ << Trilema — The story of Kitty and her kitten	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/a-story-of-candy-but-with-an-eye-rather-than-a-why/ << Trilema — A story of candy, but with an eye rather than a why.	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/of-wants-and-wanting-and-of-your-daughter/ << Trilema — Of wants, and wanting, and of your daughter.	[23:25]
Day changed to 2020-06-25
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/thefleet-post-mortem/ << whaack — TheFleet Post-Mortem	[05:34]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/jojo-rabbit/ << Trilema — Jojo Rabbit	[07:06]
diana_coman:	hm, did feedbot hiccup on trilemas?	[09:12]
diana_coman:	jfw – out of curiosity really, what happened in the end with that present article of two days ago?	[10:29]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 22:34:01 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[10:29]
diana_coman:	by now I admit I find this seemingly very common process quite fascinating – it's more like the undoing of things than their doing, as they all seem to start with everything in place and then gradually fade away until there's either nothing to be seen or (in the best cases, I suppose) it all morphed into something else, sometime else, somewhere else, huh.	[10:32]
diana_coman:	it's like the very anchoring in concrete hurts and repels, there's just no keeping to it.	[10:33]
whaack:	diana_coman: I'm starting off today summarizing your work that's published on your blog from Jan – July, I want to make sure that is an exercise you actually recommend rather than one you suggest as a form of rhetoric to give a scope of the disparity between productivity.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	whaack – do you consider the trouble/lack of productivity on that irc project was due to being "busy" with the other tasks you listed there?	[17:32]
diana_coman:	(aka making your computer and so on)	[17:32]
whaack:	diana_coman: no, it was most likely orthogonal problems that slowed down everything that I was "bussied with"	[17:33]
diana_coman:	so then don't use that "bussied with" pretense at all, it's not helping you	[17:34]
diana_coman:	re exercise, only you can tell really – does actually seeing concrete disparity work for you as motivation to improve?	[17:34]
whaack:	diana_coman: I think it may serve as motiviation, in any case it's interesting reading through so I wouldn't mind the exercise.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	so then why do you need any confirmation/whatever, if you want to do it then…do it	[17:36]
diana_coman:	if you don't want to do it, then…don't do it	[17:36]
diana_coman:	understand that there's no external gain to it either way, ie either you gain from doing it (hence, whether I recommend it or not, whether it comes with any stamps of approval or not) or you do not gain anything worth the time, by definition.	[17:37]
whaack:	diana_coman: I don't understand that last point. I gather that doing what you want is the right way to go about things but want must == need.	[17:40]
diana_coman:	whaack – so, do you need it then? lolz	[17:42]
diana_coman:	whaack – was you earlier question a way of asking me whether I think you need that exercise?	[17:43]
diana_coman:	your*	[17:44]
whaack:	diana_coman: yes	[17:44]
whaack:	diana_coman: and lol, i guess i should s/want/need throughout my head	[17:46]
diana_coman:	well then, the answer is not very helpful: I don't know if you need it or not and I can't know it because it depends what you make out of it; IF you do it properly and use it to motivate yourself, it will be useful; if not, it won't; and sure, there are other ways to motivate yourself that might work, but I don't have the sort of control needed to ensure that you do exactly what it means so that	[17:46]
diana_coman:	it works.	[17:46]
diana_coman:	based on previous experience, I can tell you upfront that you certainly can make it useless, as well as you can make it useful; is that any help?	[17:47]
whaack:	diana_coman: Yes I think so. I'll play it safe by doing a summary of 3 months instead of 6.	[17:48]
diana_coman:	do set some timeframe too, so it doesn't end up some month-long project or something; arguably the time is more important than how long you cover; in the end set some time for it and then cover as much as it fits or until it stops being interesting since that would normally mean you are not gaining anything further from it.	[17:50]
whaack:	diana_coman: okay I'll come up with the timeframe and go as far as I can within the window instead then.	[17:52]
diana_coman:	I'm even curious what you end up with.	[17:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: not sure, it wasn't even supposed to be a challenging article or anything. I sat down a couple times, "just need to write this already", ended up doing anything else.	[21:30]
jfw:	do you mean the 'seemingly very common process' in regards to me or something more general?	[21:31]
jfw:	some kinda repulsion to anchoring, could be	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw – no, not just you, hence the "very common" exactly.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	repulsion to reality more than the anchoring itself, lol.	[21:32]
jfw:	ah. and for the most part reality doesn't even seem that bad	[21:34]
diana_coman:	normally the "ended up doing anything else" would point to some issue/trouble with either what remains doing (e.g. something unclear/don't know how to handle this) or with some perceived result/outcome (what if…)	[21:34]
diana_coman:	but well, the normal doesn't really run into this with such frequency so …	[21:35]
diana_coman:	oh, it clearly has nothing to do with bad/good, no	[21:35]
diana_coman:	at most, at a guess, with constraints/limits really	[21:36]
diana_coman:	in other words, with lack of experience with it/practice at it.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	or with "finality" of it; basically for as long as it isn't finished/published/whatever, it doesn't yet exist, hence …anything can be/goes, the lie to self that points out only advantages and no drawbacks ever can live and thrive.	[21:38]
diana_coman:	perhaps even just another facet of not being quite fully comfortable with negative numbers, heh.	[21:41]
jfw:	ha, negative numbers aren't real! when did anyone ever see a negative number of apples?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	when they got stolen!	[21:43]
diana_coman:	lol	[21:43]
diana_coman:	tbh looking all the way back, the ~only time when I recall that sort of difficulty-in-doing-much-at-all, it was the unavoidable result of actually trying to cater to and fit (probably more than anyone else ever expected, too) a ton of conflicting stupid from outside really.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	because blockage of the stalling type in the end is quite that: won't make an explicit choice because of some conflicting constraints that are not sorted out themselves.	[21:56]
jfw:	I suppose then one needs to figure out what those constraints are?	[21:59]
diana_coman:	in other unsurprising empirical results, it turns out that Google claims to "not found" anything for "fashionable hopefuls" even when asked specifically to search on ossasepia.com ; the search box on my blog unsurprisingly finds it.	[21:59]
diana_coman:	jfw – one needs to figure out why are they avoiding doing whatever it is.	[22:01]
diana_coman:	and you know, esp when this sort of avoidance happens so frequently, it's kind of mind boggling just how it's still such an "unknown" really, dunno	[22:02]
diana_coman:	note though that if anything, it seems to only grow, ie the more it's paid attention to/gets its way, the more it seems to …extend really; at least this is how it looks from here (and again, no, not at all just you).	[22:04]
diana_coman:	whatever it is, it's apparently very scary or something.	[22:05]
diana_coman:	(sure, it might be faster and easier to just do it and let it figure itself out but apparently that's too difficult too).	[22:06]
diana_coman:	jfw – getting back specifically to your v-article and factoring in what I know of you otherwise, that specific one might simply be a case of perfectionism again ie despite your analytical decision that you don't need the full definition and thorough understanding of the v-elephant, the less-analytical-but-much-more-powerful-at-stalling part does consider it needs exactly that before moving it any	[22:09]
diana_coman:	further.	[22:09]
jfw:	haha, yes I think so; indeed found myself "need to reread the log / trilemas"	[22:11]
diana_coman:	heh, so there, basically not all of you got or paid any attention to that memo that present article can make do without it, cut out some of the internal bureaucracy or something!	[22:15]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-23 22:34:01 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'll work on getting there but the present article can make do without it.	[22:15]
jfw:	I'll put out a memo on it.	[22:23]
jfw:	ty.	[22:23]
Day changed to 2020-06-26
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for Jun 2020	[15:37]
diana_coman:	sonofawitch got a small update, do ping me if it misbehaves.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	there's now a direct link for the start of logs for today e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#2020-06-26 ; sonofawitch should add those from now on, directly when the day changes; unlike old logger though, there will be no spurious links/dates ie if there's no line on that date, there's no link either, just to fill up the space or something.	[16:30]
Day changed to 2020-06-27
diana_coman:	test line	[00:03]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/eulora-logs-for-jun-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for Jun 2020	[00:14]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/fun-together/ << Trilema — Fun, together	[08:22]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/temporary-ornithology/ << Trilema — Temporary ornithology	[18:06]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/ << Fixpoint — A bevy of fixes for V in Perl	[23:53]
Day changed to 2020-06-28
diana_coman:	jfw – the article ^ turned out a very nice read, too!	[10:00]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-lulz-of-all-time-today-as-each-day/ << Trilema — The lulz of all time, today as each day	[17:39]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/28/eulora-client-data-hierarchy-finally-getting-there/ << Ossa Sepia — Eulora Client Data Hierarchy – Finally Getting There!	[18:02]
billymg:	jfw: i haven't tried it out yet but thank god for this: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/?b=can%20now&e=be%20spelled%20as#select	[20:51]
billymg:	been wanting that ever since i started using V	[20:51]
diana_coman:	billymg – bvt's v.sh works with the full patch path too, way more practical indeed.	[20:58]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, i was not aware of that	[20:58]
diana_coman:	tbh v.sh is now quite a pleasure to use; but it's true that there is the GNAT dependency that is huge otherwise ie I can see jfw's point that there's a need for a "slimmer" V implementation too, for setups where GNAT is just not needed	[20:59]
Day changed to 2020-06-29
jfw:	thank ye diana_coman & billymg.	[03:28]
jfw:	in baby steps towards a V that scans the world for pieces to assemble, my reference code shelf is now indexed by (name, size, hash), with the generating script alongside for who wants to publish	[03:43]
jfw:	likewise.	[03:43]
jfw:	(As seen before.)	[03:49]
diana_coman:	trinque – did I miss somehow the invoice for deedbot's services?	[09:49]
diana_coman:	spyked – as I have been using feedbot for quite a while and finding it very useful indeed, I would pay for it as a service too.	[09:54]
diana_coman:	jfw – I left a comment yesterday on your blog and it seems it's in modq/spam.	[09:55]
diana_coman:	jfw – that manifest.keccak looks good.	[10:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: a comment besides this one?	[18:49]
diana_coman:	jfw – that one, none other.	[21:02]
diana_coman:	whaack – how's it going ?	[21:02]
diana_coman:	dorion – what happened to you? did that gbw article get stuck on something (what)?	[21:03]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia new_yh\|81	[21:28]
deedbot:	new_yh\|81 voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:28]
diana_coman:	hello new_yh\|81	[21:28]
Day changed to 2020-06-30
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/contrary-to-convenient-fiction-they-really-havent-changed-much-have-they/ << Trilema — Contrary to convenient fiction, they really haven't changed much, have they	[00:20]
whaack:	diana_coman: The past few days I've been working on a side project – http://ztkfg.com/2018/10/zylon-game-design/ . I've learned a tad about threading in python and have reviewed some stuff I learned about communication over the net with sockets. Otherwise I've been taking care of some personal matters. After pondering about what I may want – er need – to do next, setting up a block explorer to	[00:36]
whaack:	replace mimisbrunnr seems like a good goal. As of now I have not started nor even planned my hours for the ossasepia review.	[00:36]
diana_coman:	whaack – a block explorer sounds like a good idea to me.	[09:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/pesk-u-in-all-timelines-and-dimensions/ << Trilema — Pesk-u, in all timelines, and dimensions!	[17:53]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-3-diferencias-entre-palabras-agudas-llanas-y-esdrujulas/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 3 – Diferencias Entre Palabras Agudas, Llanas, y Esdrjulas	[20:41]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-5/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 5	[20:44]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-4/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 4	[20:44]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-study-log-6/ << whaack — Spanish Study Log 6	[20:48]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/spanish-practice-log-7-silabas/ << whaack — Spanish Practice Log 7 – Slabas	[20:52]
diana_coman:	whaack – are you stress-testing feedbot with all the logs in one go? lol; might want to add maybe the dates in the text or somewhere since it's not clear from the publishing date otherwise.	[21:02]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-10-potential-tremolo-pieces/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 10 – Potential Tremolo Pieces	[21:03]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-12-interval-notes/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 12 – Interval Notes	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-13/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 13	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-11-gypsy-jazz-links/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 11 – Gypsy Jazz Links	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/06/guitar-practice-log-14/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 14	[21:11]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-jun-2020/#1027465 – the gbw article went through a couple more drafts than I had expected. mainly surrounding how to format the article since similar to the Gales LInux BUILD document, a large percentage of the text is commands to issue.	[21:24]
sonofawitch:	2020-06-29 21:03:45 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion – what happened to you? did that gbw article get stuck on something (what)?	[21:24]
dorion:	I also de-prioritized it for a time. At present there's just the transaction signing section to finish up.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	dorion – on one hand it's tempting to ask if billymg's code vpatch/update to mpwp doesn't help with that formatting issue; on the other hand, wouldn't want a fullblown mpwp update to delay that article even further, lol.	[21:28]
dorion:	yeah, I've delayed it long enough.	[21:34]
jfw:	dorion: did you manage to get a transaction signed & confirmed with it (if that's not too much of a spoiler)?	[21:36]
diana_coman:	apparently your writing speed needs to increase significantly to keep up with the speed of re-prioritizing, lol.	[21:37]
dorion:	jfw not yet.	[21:38]
jfw:	aw. well then the article can look at how far you got / what difficulties rather than having to wait, right?	[21:38]
dorion:	diana_coman verily.	[21:38]
dorion:	jfw that it can, though I'm close.	[21:39]
diana_coman:	maybe keep in mind jfw's sensible suggestion if next re-prioritizing strikes closer than that close.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	basically better publish the unfinished than nothing at all, because the effort put into it is still sunk.	[21:43]
dorion:	diana_coman ok.	[21:44]
jfw:	whaack: re block explorer, you may find my recent V & TRB work of interest, the raw transactions patch especially; and if python is tolerable, the gbw-node code could be a good reference too	[21:55]
whaack:	diana_coman: aha, I just had a backlog to upload. I didn't put dates on a few of the study/practice notes… so I don't actually know which date they're on. Going forward I'll make sure to date them, and I'll consider putting the dates in the article titles.	[23:06]
whaack:	jfw: Alright, I'm going to set some time today (now) to scope out what needs to be done to make a block explorer, and I'll put your recent work on the top of the reading list.	[23:07]

Comments (0)

May 21, 2020

Illustrated Mirroring and Collapsing of Points

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 12:40 pm

While I can ~never be absolutely certain the implementation is a bug-free translation of the spec, I can certainly check again and check better and take a break from that code before checking then yet again with fresh eyes and even concrete illustrations to try as best as possible to either find the trouble or otherwise set the matter to rest and set own mind at rest that there isn’t anything to that niggling thought that somewhere kept insisting that hm, *some* of those hopefuls in the 4th parade are not quite as expected, somehow.

So I left the generator code alone for a few days and did instead all the writing of textures and then some more writing and different code and new textures and even various other code tidy ups before I sat down again to recalculate all the formulae (it’s not the first time either), to re-read the whole code and to check – with pictures if need be! – that it does as expected. The formulae turned out the same and correct, everything supposedly was fine except… a typo, of course, what fucking else. I fixed it and then tracked back to see where it got in exactly: at the moment when I switched from mirroring only original points to mirroring all in the 2nd plane, so it affects only generation 4 (and only the hopefuls with sym2), not any of the previous generations nor the sym1 hopefuls of gen4. So thank you for giving voice to that doubt and asking that question, apologies for the mess up and I’ll try to take that needed break in the future before it’s overdue rather than after.

With the fix in, I ran again the whole testing step by step and took screenshots to provide a clearer illustration of this whole important symmetry part, as I think it might help even to spot if there’s anything else unexpected/undesired in there. To help make the points clear, I ran each step twice: once with normal fit of the mesh on the full bone’s length and once with fitting the mesh only on the end point of the bone (and a fixed, small size, 0.02, so that something is visible). Step 1 is just the set of pseudo-randomly chosen points (7 inside the volume, 17 on the surface of the unit sphere), without any mirroring (nor collapsing) at all, first normal fit of the mesh, then end-of-bone fit:

Step 2 uses the same seed as above but adds mirroring in one and then in both planes *without* any collapsing – so you can see visually the symmetry introduced:

Worth noting here since I’m going in detail through it anyway: the 2nd plane of symmetry is obtained by taking first the 2 points that are furthest apart and then a 3rd point that is closest to those 2 but *also* not collinear to them (since collinear wouldn’t help to define a plane); at the moment I’m not checking anywhere specifically so that all points are distinct. In principle this can introduce ~duplicate points – either by pure chance or by the weird effects of working with floating point numbers on the computer, since the distance of a point to the plane that contains it may still end up not-exactly-zero so that the mirroring can literally double the points, nevermind that 3 of them are in principle their own mirroring. Even if introduced, those duplicate points are the first ones to go at collapsing time but it’s true that they would in principle affect that calculated average distance so let me know if this is a problem and you’d rather I add checks to prevent it entirely.

Finally, step 3 uses the same seed and does mirrorings as above but adds afterwards the collapsing too:

Let me know if there’s anything else looking dubious in the above and/or if there’s something else to change regarding this mirroring and collapsing of points.

Update with the required data dump for seed 99. Note that the dump rounded to 2 decimals above while the script works with the values not rounded (hence also the mirroring at distance -0.00 – the check is too strict and so there is this, as I mentioned in the text):
Initial points:
0.28 -0.55 0.38
-0.01 -0.02 -0.01
-0.01 -0.01 -0.18
-0.04 -0.02 -0.26
0.23 -0.01 0.51
-0.00 0.00 -0.01
-0.01 -0.25 -0.01
-0.72 0.70 -0.72
-0.87 0.03 -1.00
0.84 -0.40 0.90
-0.72 0.55 -0.79
0.85 -0.14 0.99
-0.91 -0.14 -0.99
0.68 0.46 0.83
0.33 -0.79 0.39
0.23 0.93 0.24
-0.70 -0.25 -0.94
-0.21 0.77 -0.26
0.31 -0.71 0.40
0.11 -0.21 0.47
0.17 0.94 0.18
-0.59 -0.76 -0.61
0.11 0.08 0.83
-0.79 0.49 -0.85
Symmetry plane 1 determined by the 2 furthest away points 11 and 12, together with 3rd closest (and non-collinear), 6:
0.85 -0.14 0.99
-0.91 -0.14 -0.99
-0.01 -0.25 -0.01
Equation symplane1: -0.21 * x + (-0.06) * y + (0.19) * z + (-0.01) = 0
Reflected points in symplane1:
Point 24 reflection of 0 at distance -0.10 from plane: 0.32 -0.54 0.34
Point 25 reflection of 1 at distance 0.05 from plane: -0.03 -0.02 0.01
Point 26 reflection of 2 at distance 0.15 from plane: -0.08 -0.02 -0.12
Point 27 reflection of 3 at distance 0.19 from plane: -0.12 -0.04 -0.19
Point 28 reflection of 4 at distance -0.12 from plane: 0.28 -0.00 0.47
Point 29 reflection of 5 at distance 0.05 from plane: -0.02 -0.00 0.01
Point 30 reflection of 6 at distance -0.00 from plane: -0.01 -0.25 -0.01
Point 31 reflection of 7 at distance 0.13 from plane: -0.77 0.68 -0.67
Point 32 reflection of 8 at distance 0.07 from plane: -0.90 0.02 -0.97
Point 33 reflection of 9 at distance -0.00 from plane: 0.84 -0.40 0.90
Point 34 reflection of 10 at distance 0.15 from plane: -0.78 0.54 -0.74
Point 35 reflection of 12 at distance -0.00 from plane: -0.91 -0.14 -0.99
Point 36 reflection of 13 at distance 0.09 from plane: 0.64 0.45 0.87
Point 37 reflection of 14 at distance -0.12 from plane: 0.38 -0.78 0.34
Point 38 reflection of 15 at distance 0.24 from plane: 0.13 0.91 0.33
Point 39 reflection of 16 at distance 0.10 from plane: -0.74 -0.26 -0.90
Point 40 reflection of 17 at distance 0.22 from plane: -0.30 0.74 -0.18
Point 41 reflection of 18 at distance -0.12 from plane: 0.37 -0.69 0.36
Point 42 reflection of 19 at distance -0.22 from plane: 0.20 -0.19 0.39
Point 43 reflection of 20 at distance 0.24 from plane: 0.07 0.92 0.27
Point 44 reflection of 21 at distance -0.13 from plane: -0.54 -0.75 -0.66
Point 45 reflection of 22 at distance -0.39 from plane: 0.28 0.12 0.68
Point 46 reflection of 23 at distance 0.12 from plane: -0.84 0.48 -0.81

Symmetry plane 2 based on normal to plane1 & going through 2 furthest away points:
-0.11 * x + (0.75) * y + (0.10) * z + (0.10) = 0

Point 47 reflection of 0 at distance 0.52 from plane: 0.17 0.23 0.48
Point 48 reflection of 1 at distance -0.15 from plane: 0.03 -0.25 -0.04
Point 49 reflection of 2 at distance -0.14 from plane: 0.02 -0.22 -0.20
Point 50 reflection of 3 at distance -0.11 from plane: -0.01 -0.19 -0.28
Point 51 reflection of 4 at distance -0.20 from plane: 0.28 -0.31 0.47
Point 52 reflection of 5 at distance -0.18 from plane: 0.04 -0.27 -0.04
Point 53 reflection of 6 at distance 0.14 from plane: -0.04 -0.03 0.02
Point 54 reflection of 7 at distance -1.08 from plane: -0.48 -0.93 -0.93
Point 55 reflection of 8 at distance -0.21 from plane: -0.82 -0.29 -1.04
Point 56 reflection of 9 at distance 0.35 from plane: 0.77 0.12 0.97
Point 57 reflection of 10 at distance -0.89 from plane: -0.52 -0.78 -0.97
Point 58 reflection of 11 at distance -0.00 from plane: 0.85 -0.14 0.99
Point 59 reflection of 12 at distance -0.00 from plane: -0.91 -0.14 -0.99
Point 60 reflection of 13 at distance -0.77 from plane: 0.85 -0.70 0.68
Point 61 reflection of 14 at distance 0.84 from plane: 0.15 0.46 0.55
Point 62 reflection of 15 at distance -1.37 from plane: 0.53 -1.12 -0.03
Point 63 reflection of 16 at distance 0.17 from plane: -0.74 0.01 -0.91
Point 64 reflection of 17 at distance -1.15 from plane: 0.05 -0.96 -0.49
Point 65 reflection of 18 at distance 0.73 from plane: 0.15 0.38 0.55
Point 66 reflection of 19 at distance 0.04 from plane: 0.10 -0.16 0.48
Point 67 reflection of 20 at distance -1.39 from plane: 0.48 -1.13 -0.10
Point 68 reflection of 21 at distance 0.80 from plane: -0.77 0.43 -0.46
Point 69 reflection of 22 at distance -0.39 from plane: 0.20 -0.51 0.75
Point 70 reflection of 23 at distance -0.81 from plane: -0.61 -0.73 -1.01
Point 71 reflection of 24 at distance 0.52 from plane: 0.21 0.24 0.44
Point 72 reflection of 25 at distance -0.15 from plane: 0.01 -0.25 -0.02
Point 73 reflection of 26 at distance -0.14 from plane: -0.05 -0.23 -0.15
Point 74 reflection of 27 at distance -0.11 from plane: -0.09 -0.21 -0.21
Point 75 reflection of 28 at distance -0.20 from plane: 0.33 -0.30 0.43
Point 76 reflection of 29 at distance -0.18 from plane: 0.02 -0.27 -0.02
Point 77 reflection of 30 at distance 0.14 from plane: -0.04 -0.03 0.02
Point 78 reflection of 31 at distance -1.08 from plane: -0.53 -0.94 -0.88
Point 79 reflection of 32 at distance -0.21 from plane: -0.85 -0.29 -1.02
Point 80 reflection of 33 at distance 0.35 from plane: 0.77 0.12 0.97
Point 81 reflection of 34 at distance -0.89 from plane: -0.58 -0.79 -0.91
Point 82 reflection of 35 at distance -0.00 from plane: -0.91 -0.14 -0.99
Point 83 reflection of 36 at distance -0.77 from plane: 0.81 -0.71 0.71
Point 84 reflection of 37 at distance 0.84 from plane: 0.20 0.48 0.51
Point 85 reflection of 38 at distance -1.37 from plane: 0.43 -1.15 0.06
Point 86 reflection of 39 at distance 0.17 from plane: -0.78 -0.00 -0.87
Point 87 reflection of 40 at distance -1.15 from plane: -0.04 -0.99 -0.41
Point 88 reflection of 41 at distance 0.73 from plane: 0.20 0.39 0.50
Point 89 reflection of 42 at distance 0.04 from plane: 0.20 -0.13 0.40
Point 90 reflection of 43 at distance -1.39 from plane: 0.38 -1.16 -0.01
Point 91 reflection of 44 at distance 0.80 from plane: -0.71 0.44 -0.51
Point 92 reflection of 45 at distance -0.39 from plane: 0.37 -0.47 0.60
Point 93 reflection of 46 at distance -0.81 from plane: -0.66 -0.74 -0.97

Fwiw I calculated yet again the plane equations and I still don’t see anything wrong with them. Perhaps there’s something going wrong at reflection itself, so I’ll re-calc that too, though tomorrow with a fresher mind.

Updated 22 May 2020: *fixed* the incorrect use of size of normal instead of squared size of normal when calculating the lambda for the first plane. Updated data dump with full decimals too:
Seed 99
Initial points:
0.281813 -0.548861 0.380002
-0.005405 -0.017001 -0.009531
-0.012594 -0.005508 -0.177122
-0.038420 -0.020412 -0.262836
0.230660 -0.013599 0.512881
-0.003318 0.003075 -0.005014
-0.005029 -0.247561 -0.005563
-0.717715 0.696048 -0.717859
-0.870788 0.032036 -0.999324
0.842434 -0.403239 0.901994
-0.717069 0.552947 -0.791900
0.851877 -0.140657 0.986641
-0.910115 -0.140719 -0.988257
0.682939 0.455476 0.831947
0.331493 -0.788936 0.387371
0.228824 0.932114 0.238411
-0.698641 -0.248287 -0.942265
-0.208097 0.765032 -0.262473
0.312717 -0.708648 0.403725
0.111998 -0.209795 0.470940
0.170545 0.944810 0.177637
-0.592100 -0.761696 -0.613727
0.112007 0.076307 0.826439
-0.791548 0.490804 -0.849881
Symmetry plane 1
2 furthest away points 11 and 12:
0.851877 -0.140657 0.986641
-0.910115 -0.140719 -0.988257
3rd point closest to the above, 6: -0.005029 -0.247561 -0.005563
Normal symplane1: -0.211063 -0.055953 0.188303
d=-0.013857
Point 24 reflection of 0 with lambda -0.347961: 0.428696 -0.509922 0.248958
Point 25 reflection of 1 with lambda 0.163105: -0.074256 -0.035254 0.051896
Point 26 reflection of 2 with lambda 0.532182: -0.237242 -0.065063 0.023300
Point 27 reflection of 3 with lambda 0.650727: -0.313109 -0.093233 -0.017769
Point 28 reflection of 4 with lambda -0.418546: 0.407339 0.033239 0.355254
Point 29 reflection of 5 with lambda 0.171685: -0.075791 -0.016138 0.059644
Point 30 reflection of 6 with lambda -0.000101: -0.004987 -0.247550 -0.005601
Point 31 reflection of 7 with lambda 0.438981: -0.903020 0.646923 -0.552537
Point 32 reflection of 8 with lambda 0.240978: -0.972511 0.005069 -0.908570
Point 33 reflection of 9 with lambda -0.008977: 0.846223 -0.402235 0.898613
Point 34 reflection of 10 with lambda 0.512010: -0.933202 0.495649 -0.599075
Point 35 reflection of 12 with lambda -0.000201: -0.910030 -0.140697 -0.988333
Point 36 reflection of 13 with lambda 0.322703: 0.546718 0.419363 0.953479
Point 37 reflection of 14 with lambda -0.400105: 0.500388 -0.744161 0.236689
Point 38 reflection of 15 with lambda 0.834958: -0.123634 0.838677 0.552861
Point 39 reflection of 16 with lambda 0.360113: -0.850654 -0.288586 -0.806645
Point 40 reflection of 17 with lambda 0.747765: -0.523748 0.681352 0.019139
Point 41 reflection of 18 with lambda -0.430777: 0.494559 -0.660441 0.241492
Point 42 reflection of 19 with lambda -0.756851: 0.431485 -0.125098 0.185906
Point 43 reflection of 20 with lambda 0.833199: -0.181170 0.851569 0.491424
Point 44 reflection of 21 with lambda -0.459078: -0.398311 -0.710322 -0.786619
Point 45 reflection of 22 with lambda -1.369474: 0.690098 0.229560 0.310687
Point 46 reflection of 23 with lambda 0.412428: -0.965645 0.444651 -0.694559
Symmetry plane 2 based on normal to plane1 & going through 2 furthest away points:
-0.110514 * x + (0.748616) * y + (0.098576) * z + (0.102183) = 0
Point 47 reflection of 0 with lambda 0.519249: 0.167044 0.228576 0.482373
Point 48 reflection of 1 with lambda -0.153022: 0.028417 -0.246110 -0.039699
Point 49 reflection of 2 with lambda -0.140792: 0.018525 -0.216306 -0.204880
Point 50 reflection of 3 with lambda -0.112025: -0.013659 -0.188139 -0.284922
Point 51 reflection of 4 with lambda -0.201026: 0.275092 -0.314582 0.473248
Point 52 reflection of 5 with lambda -0.179198: 0.036290 -0.265226 -0.040343
Point 53 reflection of 6 with lambda 0.142761: -0.036584 -0.033814 0.022582
Point 54 reflection of 7 with lambda -1.084918: -0.477917 -0.928326 -0.931754
Point 55 reflection of 8 with lambda -0.212739: -0.823766 -0.286484 -1.041266
Point 56 reflection of 9 with lambda 0.350085: 0.765055 0.120919 0.971014
Point 57 reflection of 10 with lambda -0.888306: -0.520729 -0.777054 -0.967032
Point 58 reflection of 11 with lambda -0.000000: 0.851877 -0.140657 0.986641
Point 59 reflection of 12 with lambda -0.000000: -0.910115 -0.140719 -0.988257
Point 60 reflection of 13 with lambda -0.772199: 0.853617 -0.700686 0.679706
Point 61 reflection of 14 with lambda 0.836044: 0.146703 0.462817 0.552200
Point 62 reflection of 15 with lambda -1.370623: 0.531771 -1.120028 -0.031811
Point 63 reflection of 16 with lambda 0.170624: -0.736354 0.007177 -0.908626
Point 64 reflection of 17 with lambda -1.153969: 0.046963 -0.962729 -0.489982
Point 65 reflection of 18 with lambda 0.726503: 0.152139 0.379097 0.546957
Point 66 reflection of 19 with lambda 0.035763: 0.104093 -0.156249 0.477991
Point 67 reflection of 20 with lambda -1.387716: 0.477270 -1.132924 -0.095955
Point 68 reflection of 21 with lambda 0.795214: -0.767865 0.428925 -0.456949
Point 69 reflection of 22 with lambda -0.392193: 0.198692 -0.510897 0.749117
Point 70 reflection of 23 with lambda -0.812742: -0.611909 -0.726060 -1.010116
Point 71 reflection of 24 with lambda 0.519249: 0.313928 0.267515 0.351329
Point 72 reflection of 25 with lambda -0.153022: -0.040434 -0.264363 0.021727
Point 73 reflection of 26 with lambda -0.140792: -0.206123 -0.275861 -0.004457
Point 74 reflection of 27 with lambda -0.112025: -0.288348 -0.260960 -0.039855
Point 75 reflection of 28 with lambda -0.201026: 0.451772 -0.267744 0.315621
Point 76 reflection of 29 with lambda -0.179198: -0.036183 -0.284439 0.024314
Point 77 reflection of 30 with lambda 0.142761: -0.036541 -0.033803 0.022544
Point 78 reflection of 31 with lambda -1.084918: -0.663223 -0.977451 -0.766431
Point 79 reflection of 32 with lambda -0.212739: -0.925490 -0.313451 -0.950512
Point 80 reflection of 33 with lambda 0.350085: 0.768844 0.121923 0.967633
Point 81 reflection of 34 with lambda -0.888306: -0.736862 -0.834352 -0.774207
Point 82 reflection of 35 with lambda -0.000000: -0.910030 -0.140697 -0.988333
Point 83 reflection of 36 with lambda -0.772199: 0.717395 -0.736798 0.801238
Point 84 reflection of 37 with lambda 0.836044: 0.315599 0.507592 0.401518
Point 85 reflection of 38 with lambda -1.370623: 0.179312 -1.213465 0.282639
Point 86 reflection of 39 with lambda 0.170624: -0.888367 -0.033122 -0.773006
Point 87 reflection of 40 with lambda -1.153969: -0.268688 -1.046409 -0.208369
Point 88 reflection of 41 with lambda 0.726503: 0.333982 0.427304 0.384724
Point 89 reflection of 42 with lambda 0.035763: 0.423580 -0.071553 0.192956
Point 90 reflection of 43 with lambda -1.387716: 0.125554 -1.226164 0.217832
Point 91 reflection of 44 with lambda 0.795214: -0.574076 0.480299 -0.629840
Point 92 reflection of 45 with lambda -0.392193: 0.776783 -0.357644 0.233366
Point 93 reflection of 46 with lambda -0.812742: -0.786006 -0.772213 -0.854793

Comments (13)

May 19, 2020

How Would They Be Different? With Caveman’s Drawings by Computer

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 5:09 pm

Having given more time and more background thinking to the question in the title, I now have 3 answers of yet to be decided length (instead of the original ~500 words one) and I still like none! So I’m writing it all down already, since it turns out to be still at the expansion and exploration stage rather than the contraction and synthesis stage. First of all though and for any innocent readers that might happen one day, here’s the question in its larger context:

Diana Coman: I was in fact looking at maybe trying out generating at least a few *types* of meshes as opposed to this single-mesh-for-everything approach. But it’s a long road to explore and I’m not sure if it’s burning /first in line given how many other things are to do – arguably and as a barely-formed/fuzzy idea for instance heads would be more reasonable starting with an egg-like shape (rather than a rounded cylinder) and deforming that based on/around some feature points. Not that it wasn’t fun to get a proper implicit equation for eggs!

Mircea Popescu: I think it should start with the following single step : explain to me how they’d be different from one another ?

The first and easy answer to the above would be the shortest too: seeing how the whole business of this fractal deformation thing means precisely fuzzying clarity itself, fracturing previously whole dimensions and otherwise in general and in plain language making an unrecognizable mess out of any initial given thing, there can’t possibly be any way in which the results of such activity depend on the shape that one starts with! After all, if you twist and deform something long and hard enough, what you get is still a pile of rubbish, regardless of what you started with. In which case the whole problem is solved, there’s nothing to do here, we can move on and work on something else already. Wouldn’t that be tempting, too?

The trouble with the above first and easy answer is that it’s pure (and even sligthly bent) theory pushed to the extreme and not much to do with the practical matter at hand: first, the goal is precisely to make a *recognizable* mess of a mesh rather than a totally random mess (of a mesh) – even if, perhaps, barely recognizable rather than strongly so and even if recognizable by the implicit system that human perception uses rather than by an explicit set of rules; second, fractals may result in messy, seemingly random shapes indeed, but their randomness is just an illusion and an artefact of either limited space/time available or of our own limited perception of everything that the fractal can pack in such a tiny space. So the second and unhelpful answer is that in theory they need not be any different but in practice they will be (as the starting shape gives the space in which the fractal deformation works)!

Finally, the third and very long answer says at core that they’d be different in style (in the way for instance swirly textures make a clearly distinct group from Escher-type textures and both are still different from the naive/surreal set), as the initial shape acts as a sort of starting point – while one can arguably get anywhere from any starting point, the sort of things one meets first are going to be different around one starting point as opposed to around a different starting point and moreover, the distance to travel and the difficulty in finding/following the road to the sort of thing desired will also depend as well on where one starts from. As illustration to what “different in style” might mean specifically, here’s a few concrete pictures anyway as they can’t hurt – although they are just a random pick really and they can’t really say all that much of the whole story either (for all the popular pretense otherwise). For a simple thing that is perhaps not that obvious at first: note that the deformation of the cylinder shape resulted in stray parts – unconnected to the main, as a result of having to crank the noise up (and for an even clearer illustration of cranking the noise way too much up, see the first attempts at mesh deformation) quite a lot to get from a straight cylinder to something else, basically as an effect of that longer distance to travel; the egg-shape has no such trouble, as there is way less deformation applied (and even limited as to affected area) though with significant and visible effect:

On a superficial level (that can be easily shot down with “that’s an artefact of the implementation/approach, damn it!”), the reason for there being a difference between starting with egg-shape vs starting with cyllinder shape in the first place is that the fractal mesh deformation effectively acts on a fuzzy region around the initial shape and is called upon to do at least 2 types of things: at the higher level, to morph the overall shape into one that is close enough to be recognizable as part of one specific group (e.g. “heads” or “limbs” – those do tend to have different proportions and overall shape); at the lower level, to create detail that fits that specific group’s features (e.g. “eyes and mouth”). Having one single deformation do reasonably well both is theoretically possible, practically more likely a nightmare as it’s quite unlikely that deformations making plausible eyes for instance are *also* helpful to inflate a straight cylinder into a plausible head-like shape. Certainly, there’s also the route of applying several distinct deformations, basically one for the higher level shape and one for the lower-level features – the question in this case is whether it’s worth the effort to do both. For one possible direction, the high level shape might even be better addressed at setting-on-bone time: perhaps the mesh should really remain just a surface and thus concerned with feature-level details, leaving the rest to be decided by the underlying bone on which the mesh is to be stretched (this would require that the bone has therefore at least 2, possibly 3 dimensions). Nevertheless, what having all those ultimately confusing rather than clear/clarifying options means is that so far the approach is not general enough to be fully independent of the starting shape – and perhaps that is an issue worth discussing first and in more detail anyway.

Before attempting though a discussion of the very approach itself and of choices regarding the mix of chaos and structure in mesh or texture generation, there are a few basic terms that I’ll surely end up needing to remember in some years from now if I ever re-read this:

Chaotic behaviour is the result of errors/noise overpowering the input/main signal. Any tame and otherwise very well behaved system that reacts deterministically and predictably to a known input signal can in principle become chaotic: all it takes is for errors/noise to accumulate at a pace greater than the system’s own capacity to self-correct and/or identify the original signal as distinct; as soon as the original signal is drowned by errors/noise, the behaviour of the system becomes chaotic, with little prediction possible *in the short term*. The short term part is quite important here because it’s really that the unpredictability, as to what the system might do immediately next, as it depends so much on just what random bit it interprets as signal, after all. Long-term though, at the limit (of infinite time), chaos itself is the tamest and most predictable of things, really (see below).
Fractals are feedback systems and as such, their limits (aka what they tend to, given infinite time to run) are called attractors. The feedback nature of fractals means that they can accumulate and/or magnify errors very quickly indeed, basically turning into chaotic systems as per the definition above. And at the intersection of attractors with chaotic systems, there are some of the most interesting of attractors indeed, namely the unique attractors:
Unique attractors define the shapes towards which chaotic systems reliably tend to, in the long term. In other words, regardless of the unpredictability of a chaotic system’s *next* step, the final result of *all* those steps is itself entirely and reliably determined & predictable upfront (whether it’s also *correctly* predicted or not depends on the knowledge of the one attempting to predict, not on the chaotic system that is already walking that shape anyway). All it takes for that determined outcome to be fully achieved is time – possibly an infinite amount of it, too (it’s the result at the limit, what the fractal tends to).

Considering the goals outlined earlier (recognizable but diverse volumes/shapes/images), one way to look at mesh/texture generation is as an exercise in finding the right balance between – and even place for! – chaos (which brings the desired diversity) and structure (or order, if you prefer; at any rate, that part which ensures the result is still recognizable as part of one given group as opposed to just random noise). The exact way in which order is encoded as well as the concrete way in which chaos is brought in and harnessed make together for a significant decision that goes even more directly to the core of the matter than does the question in the title and trying to distill the answer to the latter kept pushing me towards grappling with this underlying decision and making it more clearly explicit. While I’m not quite sure I am fully there with it, the whole exercise certainly helped in various ways, so I’ll go through what clarity I’ve got out of it, such as it is.

Contemplating this how-to-mix-chaos-with-order-for-pleasing-effect issue, one can be tempted to say that fractals already contain both chaos and structure, being thus in and by themselves the perfect and full solution: as chaotic systems, fractals provide short-term unpredictability (hence the desired diversity) AND long-term structure (aka the shapes defined by unique attractors, the limits towards which the fractal will tend). The trouble is that the practice is more limited than the theory: the structure as defined by the unique attractor is fixed indeed but this doesn’t mean that it’s either a recognizable structure or in any way known/easy to figure out upfront; moreover, banking on the structure that is the limit may mean that one needs to run the generator for a very long time indeed to get to the part where the chaos-order balance turns just right for the purpose at hand and stopping any earlier than that turns out rubbish and nothing more. Add also to this the fact that the whole theory assumes of course perfectly random noise as opposed to the fake sort that one can get on a computer – and funnily enough, the punishment for trying to sneak in more structure through non-fully-random noise is a postponement of reaching that desired limit of determinism and structure otherwise. In other words, there are a lot of potentially infinite roads to travel and very few signs (if any at all) to help you avoid at least those that take a long and unknown time to get in the end nowhere you have any interest to go to!

To avoid therefore the above death-like temptation of pure theory, there are only 2 main avenues left to still get both chaos and structure in without having to wait a lifetime to even find out if one got it wrong or possibly almost-right: one can use the short-term unpredictability of the fractal’s chaotic nature to provide the desired variety, eschewing the potentially-infinite wait for having the fractal’s structure manifest too – in which case the core structure has to come (or at the very least be augmented) from a different part that is external to the fractal itself; alternatively, one can use the long-term deterministic nature of the fractal’s chaotic nature to provide the core structure – to the extent that this is known upfront and/or can be determined easily enough. Separate from this, one can of course further use fractals simply as a sort of efficient packers, basically as non-chaotic feedback systems – and I’d say this is by far the commonest type of use, too!

Almost all the attempts I made so far at both mesh and texture generation ¹ use mainly the first option above: it’s the fractal’s short-term unpredictability that is called upon, as a relatively cheap -and controllable to a reasonable extent- way to provide pleasing variety. And the sort of error introduction into the fractal’s feedback loop is quite carefully limited so as to give a sort of push towards chaotic system but not too much of it – as previously noted, too much of that and the result quickly turns to …noise, unsurprisingly. Structure is injected through all sorts, from prng to the structure of noise in use (lattice for Perlin’s, cells for Worley’s) and to the functions used for domain warping or combination of fractal transformations. As noticed with the trig textures, the external structure thus provided can be perhaps dry but surprisingly natural-looking otherwise, if well chosen. The trouble is at that “well chosen” – basically this route has the pitfall of ending up forever tweaking various parameters in the search of the “well chosen” for a specific purpose. And it seems to me that this is how one ends up in the “sea of parameters” I mentioned previously (and that I tried to escape with the tidy up of my texture generator, only to find I merely got a bit of a better grip on it while still nevertheless fully submerged otherwise).

Does the above conclusion mean that one should therefore go instead for that second option of relying on the deterministic (at limit) behaviour of chaotic systems to provide the required structure (thus avoiding the sea of parameters and eternal tweaking within it)? It certainly makes for an appealing route (at least while submerged otherwise and fighting to keep track of the 1001 parameters of the other approach) but what would it even mean, right? Well, for textures at least, I had to get the answer and that meant not only an entirely new set of textures but… a new generator, too! At any rate, before going through the technical details, here’s the first sample of outputs, a most basic sketch of what this approach might mean – it reminds me of caveman drawing style, for better (seems quite realistic really) and for worse (some are such awful scribbles and scratches!):

The above sample are but a few textures from what is essentially an entirely new set made with an entirely new generator too. The switch of the approach goes deep here, it’s literally changing from evaluating the value of each pixel to drawing the image with repeated pixel-sized brush strokes that accumulate to different extents in different areas. A chaotic feedback system (an IFS – iterated functions system) is created pseudo-randomly (aka MT is used to pick all the required parameters within some carefully constrained intervals to ensure that there IS a unique attractor) and then iterated 90 million times ² in the 2D space of the image. Each position records the number of times it was hit and then the colour of the corresponding pixel is simply calculated for now by multiplying the number of hits with 16 (I didn’t experiment much with it, this made the pattern visible and so it was good enough for now, for this totally new thing). On the most attractive side, it’s indeed, way, way simpler to generate this way as many textures as one might possibly want, pretty much in the way the skeleton generation goes – it’s out of that sea of parameters to tweak with and into the more interesting place of finding the constraints that filter the sort of thing one is after. On the troublesome part, it’s unclear to me if this approach can indeed produce *all* the different types of textures one might want. On the even more troublesome part for the topic of this article, it’s even less clear to me if the same approach makes sense (or can even work directly with the current polygonizer, sheesh) for the mesh generation!

At the end of those 3k words, I think that far from answering the question all that clearly, I have added to it a bigger question as to the very core of the approach to explore in the first place. Ignoring that though and coming back to cylinder vs something-else, the best I can extract at the moment a sort of answer from all this exploration is that egg-shapes would have potentially better feature-like deformation (ie for making passable heads). More generally, starting with a shape that is close enough to that desired for a group of meshes (ie assuming that one *does* intend to create different meshes for types of body parts) allows the deformation to focus more closely on smaller details without having to become noisy just to achieve that too.

For an ending, here’s one of the textures from the new set, used as a night-sky because why-not:

The exception would be the pure Mandelbrot textures as that’s exactly what the depiction there is – the shape defined by the unique attractor.[↩]
In principle the number of required iterations can be reduced through a better choice of some of the parameters. Specifically, the IFS is made of a set of transformations with associated probabilities so that at each iteration, one transformation is picked with a biased die from the set and applied; the IFS that I generate contain a preset number of transformations (in the set illustrated here 4), where each transformation contains one rotation around the origin, one translation and one contraction in the 2D space; the contraction is the part that ensures the existence of a unique attractor; a better choice of probabilities can in principle help the IFS converge faster to the shape defined by its attractor. For my generator, the seed used for MT serves essentially to identify each unique attractor since all the other parameters are generated from the corresponding MT sequence – as it can be easily noticed even in this selected sample of images, some attractors have more interesting shapes than others, heh. For the record, there are ways to find the IFS that has as unique attractor a given shape – basically by going at it backwards, using rotated/translated/contracted versions of the shape to extract the corresponding parameters for the transformations and then picking probabilities to reduce the time needed for convergence. My point being exploration though rather than fitting to some given shape, I didn’t implement any of that finding-specific-shape part.[↩]

Comments (9)

May 15, 2020

Fashionable Hopefuls: Illustrated Trigonometry with a Side of Turbulence

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 3:24 pm

Since this is anyway the second article for today and one coming after going out into the space, no less, let us start with the side for once – aka the turbulence: this is yet another use of the perlin noise, in principle more specifically geared towards gases and other potential sky-textures. The naked effect tends to be quite strong – see the first two images below that adjust the considered pixel size (aka indirectly the number of iterations that apply the noise). Nevertheless, it can perhaps qualify as a different type than previous sets of textures, though to my eye it does tend in any case towards the effect obtained otherwise with several iterations of a multifractal. Comparing it with some of the original pictures and descriptions of this turbulence use that supposedly provides images of perfect-gas (to the extent of even perfect-steam!), I tend to think it takes quite the futzing and the precise fitting to some exact colour scheme to get it to really look like gas/steam. In any case, I could tame down the colours using my own colour mappings that are basically biased towards white (3rd image) and blue (4th image), respectively:

The above side aside, the fun part for me was playing with the trig functions as distorters of the domain essentially. And I do wonder now just why on Earth don’t they illustrate the 4 quadrants better in all those Maths books, not like it’s not possible, have a look (in order, below, the images are obtained with the original colouring scheme, the same scheme only all colours lighetened up a bit; the rgb unit sphere colouring scheme):

The above obviously pack the sin,cos and tan, all in one so it’s clear that one *can* separate them too, if so desired – though at the cost of losing that cool reflection-effect, heh. Nevertheless, separating the circle part creates basically a vortex that can further get pastel colours this time by use of worley noise instead of perlin noise (ha, did you think the rgb sphere was always good or the only option for pastel colours? nope, it’s not):

Separating instead the vertical and horizontal threads gets the very illustration of weaving:

And since we are weaving cloth of sorts and trying it all out, why not make it a rectangular proper patch and get some truly regular patterns on it, too:

Messing about with the initial domain mapping means that one can turn inside out the four quadrants, of course:

Finally, for all the nostalgy of sine waves, here’s some quite plain and bold sinus let loose:

Using two of those turbulence textures as sky this time, the fashion parade wore trigonometry proudly on its skins (and bones):

And with this I am *finally* caught up on the texture sets and it’s good too as I’m clearly starting to shut down the word volume, it’s like I wrote way too much those past few days or something. Anyways, having now all of this in the open should help with getting out that explanation re shapes as well so there’s that at least still pending.

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Fashionable Hopefuls: To the Skies and Outer Space

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 11:03 am

The texture planets, skies and outer space seem to be easiest to find at the intersection of the layered approach ¹ with various mappings for texture and colour domain. The stereo mapping of the texture domain provides as usual the way to zoom in and out, so that you can admire the newly found texture planet and its surrounding galaxy, all obtained through 2 rounds of perlin-based fbm (with incremental addition of results) and using otherwise the most basic of colour mappings (simply interpreting the x,y,z values as percentages of red, green and blue, respectively):

With a triangle-based domain mapping (z is considered the hypothenuse of a right angled triangle with given x and y as sides) and turning the knobs on the layered approach and/or the noisiness level of the fractal used, the results make rather atmospheric skies of sorts:

To tone down a bit all that clash of bright colours, an initial approach was to actually combine the final values for red, green and blue since that brings them basically again into a closer area and “closer” in the r,g,b space means closer colours & shades:

Given the success with the public of that unitsphere mapping in the r,g,b space, I applied it today to a few of those textures as well and it turned out perhaps not all that bad, as a sort of milky-rivers in the sky for instance:

Keeping this short but using the pics for all they can give, I went ahead and set two of them as skies as well when taking the shots at the hopefuls’ latest fashion parade – you’ll surely notice the milky one, though both are quite the departure from those tame clouds that are currently stuck to the euloran sky. The thing with making the sky more interesting seems to be that now one *really* wants those things in the sky to also …move about!

Calculate the new x,y,z coordinates in turn as the result of fractal brownian motion with perlin noise at the given point, always adding the previously calculated value as offset to the corresponding coordinate; possibly iterate this a couple of times.[↩]

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May 14, 2020

Fashionable Hopefuls: Impressionistically Naive and Slightly Surreal

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 7:18 pm

This time I’ll start with 3 illustrations since I found that I’d rather paint of sorts than write these days ¹ and supposedly the pictures are anyway worth lots and lots of words. So here’s in order my texture generator’s take on Impressionism, Naive and Surrealism painting styles and feel free to disagree most strongly for it totally doesn’t care about your disagreement:

If you compare the above with the previous styles featured in this series (such as the Escher-like or the swirly river), you might get perhaps some idea that there are some specific choices made so as to obtain one style or another. Those choices focus currently on 3 main aspects that are worth setting out in clear and perhaps discussing in a bit more detail, too, in the order in which they come into play at texture generation time:

Texture domain mapping.
Pattern (where the whole fractal fun is going on atm).
Colour domain mapping.

The texture domain mapping refers to the 3D shape that the generator assumes essentially to be the target of this texture – in other words, the resulting texture is meant to be a 2D picture of the surface of that shape, if one were to fully peel and set it flat. Unsurprisingly perhaps, the choice of the specific 3D shape *and* of the way in which the mapping to 2D is done has quite significant effects on the image obtained, even if *everything else* is kept the same. In principle though, provided that the exact inverse mapping is used when rendering the texture on the corresponding 3D shape, the two “different” images should end up as similar “skins” – though so far I haven’t really spent the time to verify this fully in practice. In any case and for illustration, have a look at 2 textures that are generated using the very same pattern and colour mapping, only assuming first a hyperboloid 3D shape and then an egg 3D shape (just in case you needed to dress up your eggs and hyperboloids):

In addition to the shape itself, it’s worth noting also that any 3D to 2D mapping will make further choices, out of necessity. Even for the very simple case of a sphere, there are several different mappings to a 2D representation and the choice depends mostly on what specific property of the sphere’s surface interests you most (meaning: you’d rather have preserved in the 2D representation). Without going so far into all that detail, as I don’t think it’s all that crucial right now, I still had fun with adjusting the “zoom” factor of a stereographic mapping, hence the part of the sphere that is captured in the limited space of my 512×512 pixels texture. Unlike the earlier diagonal travel by means of (x,y,z) offsets through the river of eyes, this is literally a travel towards or away from whatever pattern you are setting otherwise. Besides the fun factor, this sort of movement in the texture space gives both different patterns (by focusing on one spot or another, as they can be quite different looking anyway) and a neat way to control otherwise where the detail ends up (or not) on the rendered mesh. At any rate, for the style of texture that is the focus of this article, the zoom in turns out for instance like this:

With respect to the pattern used for a texture, the choices are trickier to fully describe since in principle anything can go in here, from a predefined fixed, traditional pattern to any combination of fractals, multi-fractals, prng, trng, noise, interpolations and whatever else you can think of. Such choice doesn’t necessarily mean that there is no overlap ie that you can’t perhaps obtain the same thing through different means – in fact I’d rather say you surely can. What it means however is that it’s SO very easy to get lost and play for hours with it all, even stumble upon some interesting stuff and then go nuts trying to …find it again! So what can I say, like in any other labyrinth whose design is wider than you fully comprehend just yet, take your steps one at a time, keep detailed notes and be aware that even that might not be always quite enough.

The above warning aside (and surely immediately forgotten too), for this set of textures I wanted to experiment with introducing some prng into the mix. Essentially the whole game of generating textures and shapes consists at core in finding just the right mix of structure (not enough structure means that the result will look simply like noise/nothing/random rubbish) and chaos (not enough chaos and you get stunted, boring, “un-natural”/nothing/rubbish). In other words, the structure has to be there for the meaning, while the chaos is desired in there for the fun, variety and anti-boredom property. In principle, fractals themselves are already neatly tuned combinations of both structure and chaos but tipping this balance and then re-setting it at a different point is exactly how you get different *styles* of pictures to start with – the previous swirls and river of eyes is what you get for instance with fixed offsets added to all three coordinates, basically translating the texture’s domain with slightly different amounts on each of the axes. So if translation got me swirls, my next curiosity was to see: what does rotation do? And since I like all rotations just the same, so that I don’t want to choose any in particular, I went all out and picked at *each* pixel, 3 pseudo-random numbers from an MT prng, to serve as the angles of rotation around each of the 3 axes. Note that using the MT prng is effectively introducing some tamed, approximate form of chaos really, given the pseudo-part. At any rate, the fbm with perlin noise is then used to calculate a value for the (x,y,z) triplets that are obtained in turn by rotating around the x axis, then around the y axis, then around the z axis. The result of it all raises some interesting sharp “ridges” and looks for instance like this:

The above is only the beginning though. For once I got that, it was a given I’d want to further mess about with it. So next step was to apply on top of it, an effect I had previously discovered to give a sort of layered or transparent look to the whole thing – it’s yet another application of the fractal brownian motion (fbm) with perlin noise, but applying different translations for x, y and z coordinates. Because a direct full “layered” application was clearly way too much coming after the rotation and one round of fractal transformations, I’ve further introduced in between a clamp on the coordinates so that the whole rotation+translation stays within some closer bounds. Interestingly enough, whether this clamp allows negative values or not makes in practice a *lot* of difference – basically straddling the origin and being comfortable with negative numbers gets one all the way from the naive to the impressionist:

Further keeping the same but changing basically the “noisiness” of the fractal deformation itself yields a busier pattern both when using only the rotation + one fractal application and when using rotation+fractal+translation+fractal:

Having made it so far and therefore having set both the initial 3D shape (domain mapping) and the pattern (that rotation and possibly added translation with 2 sets of fractal brownian motions in the mix), I had to try out various combinations of the two, of course. Keeping all that rotation and translation with clamping and everything else but simply changing the domain mapping from the unit sphere ² changes of course quite radically the result but I admit that I like that little face kind of forming on the right:

Finally, the last big choice to make is the colour domain mapping – basically deciding how to interpret as colours whatever bunch of numbers come out of all the previous calculations. Generally I kept this part really straightforward and very simple so far, mainly because I found it way more interesting to play with other bits: the values obtained are translated to [0,1] interval and then interpreted as % of the r,g,b (x for r, y for g, z for b). But since I tidied up and set nicely all those three different areas of play and whatnot, the unbalance of options was unsufferable really, so I did first this half-hearted what-if of considering instead a unit sphere in the R,G,B space – and I mean half-hearted as I didn’t bother too much with either more interesting options or at the very least moving about that sphere in the space to spice it up a bit. Later on and being quite annoyed with it all, I did implement a proper colour spline too but so far I didn’t get around to really try it out so it doesn’t count. Anyways, at least for the above impressionist-style texture, the R,G,B unit sphere kind of switched the colours to pastels:

Finally and for completeness rather than for anything else, here’s this article’s fashion parade with yet another set of hopefuls wearing the above textures:

Could it have *anything* to do with the fact that I have a *mountain* of stuff to write up? No, of course not, nothing at all, none, not possible.[↩]
To… ahem, the complex plane: x and y are considered the re and im, while z is calculated as arctan(y/x), obviously; don’t ask me why I had implemented this particular mapping, I just… had it implemented there from earlier attempts and so I used it now.[↩]

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May 13, 2020

Fashionable Hopefuls: the River of Eyes

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 6:30 pm

The swirly texture style clearly held some promise of both types of materials (e.g. metalic) and recognizable shapes of faces and eyes. So it was one of the first directions I explored further with my newly tidied up texture generation scripts that turned out in short order a whole… river of crazy eyes effectively flowing diagonally as you advance from one image to the next. The “flow” was rather expected, since the images are generated with a given offset that is applied to all three coordinates so that they are indeed pushed at the same time. The multitude of eyes and half-baked faces forming or half-forming and then dissolving again as the river flows was less expected but rather fun to watch. Here’s a short sequence to illustrate how this works:

tex_w512_h512_step0.100000_offset1.100000_512.jpg

Given the obvious abundance of eyes and suggestive faces even in that river of textures, I was quite curious to see if one can indeed bring out some that may be even hidden under the surface. And it turns out – surprised? – that one actually can do even better – under the obvious face contour that is quite obvious at the very first glance, there is in fact quite an entirely different guy all sad for his lack of visibility – can you even spot him all hidden by the layers upon layers of fast-flowing features in this first picture?

Once he gets space to be seen all on his own, he can even be further nudged to smile at you

For all the coolness factor of that river of eyes from where this whole set of textures can be fished out and for all the fun factor of the textures themselves when seen as images on their own, their usefulness as skin covers for my hopefuls is rather dubious. Basically evaluating the fit of a texture has to take into account its match with the shape on which it will be painted and that’s not an easy task: for one thing the shape so far is quite difficult to describe anyway, seeing how it’s all fractally-deformed into all sorts; for another thing, the mapping of the texture to the shape makes it even less straightforward to directly figure out how the result will look like just by looking at the image shown plainly like this. In principle, the mapping currently in use wraps the texture around the shape – as the shape is not regular though, this round wrapping creates all sorts of effects and/or hides or distorts all sorts of features that are otherwise visible in the texture when seen as an image. As a result, whatever eyes or faces may be obvious in the texture itself, whether they show as such on a mesh or not is less clear upfront, as it can be seen in those shots of hopefuls wearing some textures from this set:

There is some little help that I can offer to someone trying to figure out this link between a texture image and the actual result when rendered on a hopeful: the whole trouble (and therefore potential solution too) stems from the repeated transformations between 2D and 3D domains. Starting from the texture generation itself, there’s first a 2D to 3D transformation of the texture’s own domain: the texture being a 2D image, it has only 2 dimensions that are called by convention u,v; as one iterates through the whole image to decide on a colour for each pixel, one has to make a first choice: is the texture to be considered 3D or 2D? If one sticks to 2D, things are more straightforward but there are of course more limitations as to the result itself. If one chooses 3D ¹, one way to look at it is that the 2D texture itself is generated as if it were carved out of the corresponding 3D material – through whichever path/way this first mapping of the texture domain itself defines. Once this is done, there’s a 2nd mapping in any case, this time to the 3D domain of colours. Finally, when used, there’s a 3rd mapping that goes the opposite way, from the 2D domain of the texture to the 3D domain of the shape on which the texture is applied. (And then there are of course further mappings as the whole thing is rendered on a 2D screen, after all.)

The above is the basic thing behind my previous generation of stereographically mapped textures (aka their 2D representation is the mapping of a sphere in the 3D “material” domain) with the interesting part in the centre so that it maps then in turn neatly onto the “north pole” of the mesh too. In a way, this does mean though that the fit between a texture and a given mesh would naturally be best if and only if the 3D domain of the texture at generation time is taken to be exactly the mesh itself with all its irregularities and weird shape. Perhaps it’s a direction worth exploring though at the moment I really can’t tell. The downside to it would be that fitting them *that* closely literally means one has to generate a texture for *each* mesh. On the other hand, if meshes are anyway reused to stand in for many parts of a creature and if the whole generation is automated anyway, it might still be worth a try. Nevertheless, this doesn’t solve otherwise the trouble of actually getting a pattern that one *wants* to see, anyway. That’s a different matter entirely and a different exploration all in itself.

For the record, all the textures I generated so far are in fact 3D textures, mainly because my implementation of noises and fractal transformations are 3D. I suppose I should at some point implement some 2D ones too, at least to be able to say that I explored that option too.[↩]

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May 12, 2020

Fashionable Hopefuls: A Bit of Escher under the Skin

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 2:01 pm

As the previous parade of hopefuls is essentially still ongoing, I focused for a bit on painting with numbers, functions and scripts to automate it all. This is the write-up, with pics further down, as usual, playing catch-up (but not yet winning) with what came out of it so far.

Initially I wanted simply to tidy up all those loose scripts for texture generation and tie them together into a more easily controllable tool for exploring the R,G,B space where all possible textures await discovery. The whole of it didn’t take all that long – in one day and a half (with assorted C/CPP related misery) over the weekend, all the relevant scripts were neatly separated into relevant categories, ready for mix-and-match or add-new-ones: image domain mapping, pattern generation, colour mapping. Then the full list of what was available got some additions as I started implemented all sorts of ideas gotten from my previous reading and then I started to give it a spin or two and then of course the whole carefully set up overall scripting went overboard because new things require new knobs to explore and there’s no way to set it all upfront for *all* of it. And when I finally sat down today to “write it up”, I looked in mild surprise at the accumulated *sets* of textures that have each a different style really because of the different underlying approach and various knobs and all that. While I could perhaps cram them all in a single article and be done with it, I think it makes more sense to take at least the write-up (and images per page) at a more reasonable pace and make a series out of it so that’s it a bit easier to load and to digest too. This way I might even remember to pace the rest too, next time! ¹

In a rather amusing inversion of terms, from a fractal point of view it turns out that the M.C. Escher style is really just about the most boringly classical you could make – all it takes is a perlin-based typical multifractal ² + the most basic of colouring mappings (such as interpreting the result as % of each colour) and you’re all set. Fiddle with the multifractal’s classical knobs controlling noise and amplitude and you’ll fit, as expected, increasingly more of it in each tiny patch until it all quickly turns to noise essentially – indistinguishable from noise, at least. Fiddle further with the additional offset knob and you can get some variation in pattern – as long as you keep the amplitude (hence number of octaves knob) quite low, up to a maximum of about 4 really. Worth noting here that the offset in this case simply acts as a fixed amount of *additional* amplitude at each iteration so basically making the fractal pack increasingly more/less in each shape already determined by the rest of knobs. So in this sense, the offset’s effect is limited really, at least compared to what one can truly do with offsets that are not tied up so tightly with the multifractal’s own parameters.

Without spending the time to fit any specific colour mappings to work just-so (or any other similar overfittings essentially), the pictures obtained are rather… boring, I should say, with all my heartfelt apologies going to Maurits Cornelis who did it all before there were computers to unleash the fractals just like that at the push of a button (after a lot of calculations and some code writing). Variations of pattern can be obtained to some degree with that limited knob controlling the offset but the essential trouble with this typical multifractal is that there’s only one offset and no way to further play around with it during the iterations themselves. Nevertheless, hopefuls were found to want to give a go at getting under those escher-like skins, so here’s the list of shots, starting with the textures themselves and then some hopefuls showing off the improved rotations by different angles on x,y and z axes as well as their newly found, skin-deep love of M.C. Escher:

tex_w512_h512_h0.700000_octaves2_offset100.000000_512.jpg

In the next articles of this series, I shall leave classical Escher behind and illustrate for instance an exploration of the eyes-river, a travel through texture-galaxy and a stare into the trigonometry vortex that surely ate many other hopefuls before. Stay tuned or get out of tune, for the pictures are generated already and so I’ll have to write them up anyway!

I can imagine it. Just about… imagine it.[↩]
The very term multifractal is rather slippery since basically any combination of “fractal transformations” fits the notion of multifractal. Nevertheless, the simplest of those that I could find is this one used here: an fbm based on perlin noise, having in addition to the usual H and octaves, a fixed offset that gets applied (multiplication) at each iteration.[↩]

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May 8, 2020

An Abundance of Bones: 4th Parade of Hopefuls

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 12:27 pm

This week’s parade of hopefuls features a heartfelt attempt at zombiefication as well as several commendable efforts at horsification, frogification, carnivorousplantification and bring-your-own-imagination-ication. The show’s 4th and improved edition provides all participants with an updated set of skins (that come each with their own specific pose, too!) including the best ones from the latest fashion, a doubling up on that 2nd plane of symmetry (of sorts), an abundance of bones going at times all over the place and bigger screenshots for all the bigger monitors out there. There’s still a list of various things I want to try whenever I get a chance, including both texture and mesh attempts. For now though and for future reference, here’s again the list of changes implemented this week:

first plane is defined by the 2 points furthest apart from one another + the one point that is closest to those 2, where “closest to those 2” means that the “sum of distances from candidate to point 1 and to point 2 is minimum”;
ALL points (original as well as those reflected in the 1st plane) are reflected in the 2nd plane (so total ends up 4 times the original number but then the collapsing drops up to 3/4 of this total and usually it seems to drop indeed that many);
took out textures 8 and 9 (mandelbrot grays & mandelbrot blue+yellow);
added textures 1,4,13,14 from new set so the total textures now is 13;
replaced fixed pose with a rotation by a prng-number of degrees (around all three axes) using texture’s number as seed (so that each texture has its own); this is shown in the file’s name too, for easy ref;
client’s window is made bigger so that the screenshot is 1280px wide to start with, so the detail is there;
the fix to remove that seam from the texture mapping is in as well.

Here’s the absolute winner of this show’s edition as far as I’m concerned:

In other commendable entries that will therefore remain here even after the full dump ¹ gets wiped out, there’s Horsey and his gang of hopefuls:

Until next time, the past, present and future hopefuls, all want to wish you a well-jointed weekend with rounded symmetries, interesting skins and most pleasing rotations!

50 skeleton seeds * 2 symmetry planes * 8 combination of points * 13 textures = 10400 screenshots. I’ve made them .jpg though as there isn’t any visible loss really and the size is half of png so that the whole thing does not weigh 5 Gigabytes or more, sheesh. Fwiw, it took me about 2 hours to just go through all of them this time.[↩]

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May 5, 2020

Disc Included, Spelling Approximate

Filed under: Coding,Eulora — Diana Coman @ 9:35 pm

As it took a bit of a hunt to still find somewhere those older and more useful editions of various reference books on Computer Graphics, I shrugged at first at the note attached to one of them – “disc included”, it said and I couldn’t really care at all whether the disc in question was indeed still included or still to be found or still working or even still anything at all. And as the books came, I took my time to look them over, noting even that they don’t make perhaps such a bad name-day companion after all and it’s no hurry and all that. But an honest shopkeeper is an honest shopkeeper and his notes can be therefore trusted, for included it turned out to be, for all the surprise that the image of this most humble disc in question may nevertheless stir perhaps in some younger readers of mine:

Included it was therefore, as you can surely see for yourself above, if not a disc but a disk(ette). For future record and for even younger readers, above depicted is a 3.5 inch floppy disk that belongs with this book from 1994, basically the most advanced and latest floppy disk model that there ever was. The memory trip it stirred insists that those old computers I still supposedly have in an attic somewhere have the drives required to read 3.5 disks as well as those able to read the older, larger floppy disks – 8 inch, if memory serves. At any rate, I would not be terribly surprised if this disk is perhaps still working too. Only I don’t quite think I’ll rush now to that old attic all those kilometres away to dust off one of the old computers, see if any of the CRTs still light up and then try it all out.

Let me know though if you ever want to try it out yourself, for good times’ sake or for anything else at all – the disk is here and it remains, indeed, included!

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May 3, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for May 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:07 am

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/01/a-week-in-ossasepia-1-3-march-2020/ << Young Hands Club — A Week in #Ossasepia 1-3 March 2020	[02:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/01/ossasepia-logs-for-01-May-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 01 May 2020	[02:10]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/01/dg-agenda-20200501/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.05.01	[02:48]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-26#1025274 << I definitely fell off the world a tad in April. I did get caught up with saltmine debt though. I'm also current again with the logs and most of the blogs, though turns out I let lobbesblog.com expire (had to email them and am waiting to hear back, but the server it pointed to is still active: 104.244.76.215)	[06:11]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-04-26 19:08:58 diana_coman: lobbes: what happened to you this almost full April, anyway?	[06:11]
lobbes:	I'm planning to get my month review out tomorrow. I'm going to continue the thread from here into there. (I'm a bit late with this as well..)	[06:12]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/big-city/ << Trilema — Big City	[09:11]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-4302020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/30/2020	[09:55]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks for the feeback on the agenda & log summary – very helpful!	[19:13]
diana_coman:	cruciform: you're welcome.	[21:08]
diana_coman:	lobbes – I guess I'll read all about it in the review & plan; otherwise from here so far it seems rather as initially predicted that dropping the shorter-term plans & reviews just works as it always "worked" – to not get anywhere.	[21:10]
jfw:	diana_coman: I didn't start yet on my week's review (there's reasons!!); it'll be out by tomorrow.	[21:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: out of reasons by tomorrow? lolz	[21:15]
diana_coman:	apparently planning and reviewing is not that special – the more painful/impossible/unreasonable!!!! one finds it, the more… one needs it, in all likelihood.	[21:17]
jfw:	I had a chat with parents, noting that medical insurance had been on my agenda for weeks now but I still couldn't manage to care about it. In the end, mom worries about why I'm quite so allergic to this sort of paperwork, websitelogins etc., but dad will take on some of the administrative work, in return for some computer help (that he'd been waiting to ask for anyway). So that seems to work out	[21:18]
jfw:	nicely	[21:18]
diana_coman:	lol	[21:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: so dunno, go around the town and find others who might do stuff for you in exchange for computer help? if it's a working model, at least use it for all it's worth!	[21:21]
jfw:	hey, that's the "generalized IT consulting" right?	[21:22]
jurov:	diana_coman: with ben_vulpes	[21:23]
diana_coman:	oh, is that it? I had a sort of …less barter, more commerce image of it, lol	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jurov: oh, hi; I had no idea ben_vulpes was still on it at all; anyway, what do you plan with it, if you don't mind me asking?	[21:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: now there's a thought, maybe people will pay in work what they wouldn't pay in cash	[21:25]
jurov:	it has not crystallized yet, mostly support some interesting projects around V.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	jurov: so do you have a team of people or some ongoing projects or what do you have in mind? is communication going through you only or is there some other means/place for it?	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: they generally would, with the caveat of what "work" might mean, eh.	[21:28]
jurov:	diana_coman: if there was, are you interested in joining it?	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jurov: without knowing what "it" was, I can't possibly say; the reason why I'm asking you all those questions is to figure out what "it" is in the first place, really	[21:30]
jfw:	hi jurov. I'm curious as well as I've been digging into TRB lately. I've been active here since around last September if you don't know me.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	sadly atm I'm a bit rushed as usual on Fridays but maybe we do get to talk a bit more tomorrow or ~any other day really	[21:31]
diana_coman:	I'll read the logs ofc, anyway.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	will have to go in ~5 min	[21:31]
jurov:	"it" isn't anything concrete yet	[21:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: indeed, quite the caveat.	[21:32]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/01/ossasepia-logs-for-01-May-2020/#1025554 – how true this turns out. I seem to fall back on my old review-phobia, perhaps because I have a sense of not getting much done this week – which might not even be true! going to bed now.	[08:21]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-01 21:15:22 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: out of reasons by tomorrow? lolz	[08:21]
diana_coman:	congrats dorion on publishing that sales article	[10:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/02/ossasepia-logs-for-02-May-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 02 May 2020	[11:59]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/02/ejb-review-of-april-2020-plan-for-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — ejb: Review of April 2020, Plan for May 2020	[11:59]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/french-toast-the-making-the-eating-and-the-fucking-of/ << Trilema — French toast — the making, the eating, and the fucking of.	[11:59]
feedbot:	http://dorion-mode.com/2020/05/protect-what-matters-with-jwrd/ << Dorion Mode — Protect What Matters with JWRD	[11:59]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/05/the-froth-of-our-days-september-13th-2014/ << The Whet — The Froth of Our Days: September 13th, 2014	[12:03]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/02/eulora-logs-for-02-May-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 02 May 2020	[12:06]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/my-opinion-of-this-whole-covid-matter << The Tar Pit — My opinion of this whole "covid" matter	[16:07]
jfw:	congrats indeed dorion, quite a few revision passes went into that.	[21:04]
diana_coman:	shall not ask dorion to write also the compare-and-contrast first version to published version.	[21:06]
diana_coman:	though jfw's above remark makes it very tempting indeed!	[21:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: how's your review/planning ?	[21:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: I haven't moved on it yet, and I was thinking to take on a blog article first. Maybe I'm backwards there.	[21:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, if you use the blog article to push the review aside/further, it will surely end up late etc; so yeah, if you want it done, better do it earlier than later and get rid of it.	[21:13]
jfw:	alright.	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jurov: are you around & do you want to detail perhaps on what you and ben_vulpes have in mind re supporting projects around V?	[21:15]
jurov:	diana_coman: not really, don't want to air speculation	[21:29]
dorion:	diana_coman, jfw thanks. diana_coman that compare and contrast exercise did occur to me given the difference.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jurov: uhm, I wasn't asking for speculation but alright.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	dorion: in fairness you probably got that already simply through the repeated iterations; not that it would hurt anything to re-read the full series perhaps if you find the time for it.	[21:43]
dorion:	diana_coman I for sure got a lot out of the iterations, I'll make time for at least the re-read nevertheless.	[22:10]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/02/new-skins-for-fashionable-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — New Skins for Fashionable Hopefuls	[22:16]
diana_coman:	lobbes' discovery of a potential role of the daily reporting as anchor might resonate with others as well.	[22:35]
jfw:	lobbes: your missing href? http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-live-to-be-rich/?b=Note&e=considerations.#select	[22:58]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/03/jfw-review-week-of-27-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 27 Apr 2020	[06:07]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-03-May-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 03 May 2020	[06:11]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/03/erics-log-may-2nd-2020/ << Young Hands Club — Eric's log: May 2nd, 2020	[07:06]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-02#1025586 << this was precisely the reference I was looking for, ty (and added).	[07:13]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-05-02 21:08:01 jfw: lobbes: your missing href? http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-live-to-be-rich/?b=Note&e=considerations.#select	[07:13]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5022020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/02/2020	[09:09]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/here-dear-bois/ << Trilema — Here, dear bois…	[18:08]
jfw:	appears I can't edit a slug on YH after publication, needs JS perhaps (was trying to replace 3 May with 4 May)	[18:26]
jfw:	permalink I mean	[18:26]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/03/jfw-plan-week-of-3-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 4 May 2020	[18:26]
diana_coman:	!s help	[20:41]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[20:41]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/02/eulora-logs-for-may-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for May 2020	[20:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: the edit of the permalink from mpwp gui does indeed require javascript	[20:42]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for May 2020	[20:42]
diana_coman:	in other bot/logger updates – I've changed it so that the articles will be just one per month rather than one per day; for one thing there isn't really all that much text to justify one for each day and for another thing, there's just too many of them otherwise.	[20:43]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Feb-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 03 Feb 2020	[21:09]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Feb-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 04 Feb 2020	[21:09]
diana_coman:	spyked: what throws feedbot off above?	[21:10]
diana_coman:	I took out 2 articles but why would it jump all that way back to that??	[21:11]
diana_coman:	(the 2 articles in question are the logs for 2nd and 1st of May that got absorbed into the one single log for May for #o)	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/coltunasi/ << Trilema — Coltunasi	[22:10]
feedbot:	http://www.krankendenken.com/2020/05/my-experiences-with-shinjiru-and-host-one/ << Krankendenken — My experiences with Shinjiru and Host One	[02:58]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/04/erics-log-may-3rd-2020/ << Young Hands Club — Eric's log: May 3rd 2020	[05:37]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/05/cold-knocks/ << The Whet — Cold Knocks	[05:51]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5032020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/03/2020	[07:19]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025620 <– wp acts retarded sometimes; on the 1st layer: in some circumstances (not entirely known to me), it re-assigns new post IDs to old articles; on the 2nd layer: rss channel entries are identified using the "guid" tag, and when a post gets a new postid, its guid tag also changes.	[08:04]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-03 21:10:30 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked: what throws feedbot off above?	[08:04]
spyked:	speaking of which, diana_coman, it looks like (some of) your log articles have empty guid tags? when feedbot doesn't find the guid for an entry, it uses the "link" tag instead, but otherwise it can't guarantee all that much, because how else is it supposed to identify rss entries.	[08:07]
diana_coman:	spyked: hm, I'll add the guid tags to the list since it seems I really have to sink some days into sorting out mpwp for my current needs, after all.	[09:31]
spyked:	diana_coman: is the logbot adding/modifying articles via mysql?	[09:41]
spyked:	wonders, what is mpwp using to generate that particular tag?	[09:42]
diana_coman:	spyked: yes, via mysql	[09:58]
diana_coman:	and I didn't specifically care about guid tags so possibly there's something missing indeed	[09:58]
diana_coman:	I half dread I'll end up stripping half of mpwp codebase if I really sink days into setting the blog straight once and for all but the annoyance and pressure is building on that front so …I guess I'll find out soon enough.	[09:59]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/#1025351 – ftr dorion , one week in, I don't see much of this.	[10:03]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-27 21:11:04 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: what's your plan re using those resources ?	[10:03]
spyked:	diana_coman: it seems that there's indeed a 'guid' field in the wp posts table. and rss grabs it in e.g. wp-includes/feed-rss2.php (via the_guid(), defined in wp-includes/post-template.php)	[10:47]
diana_coman:	spyked: I didn't look but I'd have expected that field to be added automatically on insert really; possibly some of the php normally does that; anyways, I'll probably find out soon enough indeed.	[12:02]
diana_coman:	billymg: your v-tree at http://billymg.com/mp-wp-vtree/ stops at mp-wp_comments_filtering.vpatch while my local tree has also mp-wp_add-embedded-vpatch-formatting.vpatch ; as a result, now I'm confused as to what even is the full current trunk, let alone whatever modifications I might have deployed otherwise.	[12:03]
spyked:	diana_coman: I don't think it can set the field on auto, since it's a string. so yeah, I think it's generated in php, based on the URL and the post ID, i.e. http://myblog/?p=N	[12:40]
spyked:	(for further reference: from the looks of it, it's set in wp-includes/post.php, in the wp_insert_post mega-function, e.g. http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=68UC )	[12:46]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah i haven't updated yet because i was going to republish that patch with some of the feedback from jfw. then that feedback plus discussion in here prompted a pause to do some research (the survey), and last week i got sidetracked with some IRL work plus a trip to arenal (blog post drafted and ready	[19:16]
billymg:	to go once i get some permissions assistance on anyserver)	[19:16]
billymg:	diana_coman: this time i did all my image processing locally with a script i put together based on the one whaack shared and your mention of a locally running imagemagick, and so now my anyserver user is bumping into permission restrictions on a folder previously generated by apache (via mpwp) when trying to copy over the images	[19:20]
feedbot:	http://billymg.com/2020/05/guanacaste-san-jose-and-arenal-two-months-in-costa-rica/ << billymg — Guanacaste, San Jose, and Arenal: Two Months in Costa Rica	[20:35]
diana_coman:	billymg: btw, since I did one round of digging through the whole pile of mpwp yet again – by now it's better I'd say to remove that "selection-magic" thing given that it's broken	[20:38]
billymg:	diana_coman: indeed, jfw has a patch for that already (just need a minor tweak)	[20:40]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-22 21:32:40 billymg: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Apr-2020#1025005 << jfw, yup, looks good. one minor thing for the patch removing js selection: the wrapper <span> tags in page.php and single.php can be removed as well	[20:40]
billymg:	i was gonna wait for him to make that last update and then add his two patches to my mirror of the trunk	[20:41]
diana_coman:	cool then; is there in any of those (im)pending vpatches the fixing of the trilema-specific links-immunity? because I noticed that in the main trunk it's set to trilema.com and nowhere even mentioned, lolz.	[20:42]
diana_coman:	billymg: do you know by any chance where is the page/nopage set for the archives? not sure why is this even so different than for the rest but I can't seem to properly & fully figure it out atm.	[20:44]
billymg:	diana_coman: re: trilema-specific links, not to my knowledge, but i can add that as a drive-by fix in the code embed patch	[20:49]
billymg:	diana_coman: what do you mean by page/nopage set for archives?	[20:50]
diana_coman:	billymg: how to set it so it does not paginate archive contents, for any archive	[20:53]
diana_coman:	I can set it directly for posts, there are some parameters to the posts query but I can't quite figure out how to set it only for archives	[20:53]
billymg:	ah i see, so for example on http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/ you'd like all of the entries to be on a single page?	[20:55]
diana_coman:	yes	[20:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: what's the links-immunity mean?	[20:56]
billymg:	diana_coman: got it. i don't know offhand but i can look	[20:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: mpwp is set so comments with links get into the moderation queue except those with links to trilema.com	[20:58]
diana_coman:	ofc, one would change that to links to own site; or hm, so I supposed, lol	[20:58]
diana_coman:	now it will turn out everyone runs it with trilema.com	[20:59]
jfw:	checking what I did on mine…	[20:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's in wp-includes/comment.php	[21:00]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/04/rmd-w26-review-apr-26th-may-3rd-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD w26 review, Apr 26th-May 3rd, 2020	[21:04]
jfw:	I see a trilema.com in a preg_match_all and yeah, I had no idea that file needed tweaking.	[21:06]
jfw:	I believe I raised the link count threshold to count as spam in the admin UI, possibly that's why it hasn't bothered me.	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/04/rmd-w27-plan-may-4-8th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD w27 plan, May 4-8th, 2020	[21:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes, that one in check_comment; as you can see, it subtracts links to trilema from total links before it looks if it's to go to modq or not	[21:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, you wouldn't specifically notice it as such I suppose anyway unless really paying attention/getting surprised at some comments making it through without moderation perhaps.	[21:09]
jfw:	I can't quite make out what those REs are doing, especially the starting \| and trailing \|i and ? (guessing the ? is just redundant with the there, but with all the different RE variants it could mean something entierly else for all I know…)	[21:20]
jfw:	think I'll leave it to billymg unless he asks for help though :)	[21:20]
billymg:	diana_coman: do you think it's something that should just be removed? and if someone wants to whitelist their domain they update the regex accordingly? i could see it as a useful feature if the whitelisted domain(s) could be set at the db or config level and pulled into that regex	[21:23]
jfw:	billymg: I'll do that comments-js removal vpatch tweak / regrind by Sunday, unless you'd prefer it wait to build on the patch-review patch. (Not that it's hard, just lots else on the plate.)	[21:23]
billymg:	jfw: sunday is fine for me, i was going to place the patch-review patch on top of those after making the final round of updates	[21:24]
diana_coman:	billymg: hm, I think that the blog's domain is actually in the db, isn't it?	[21:25]
diana_coman:	in _options iirc	[21:25]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, true, could just pull from that then	[21:25]
jfw:	^, or WP_SITEURL from wp-config.php	[21:25]
jfw:	(the two may interact in some way…)	[21:26]
billymg:	my thought was to make it a csv list perhaps, so one could whitelist multiple domains, but that could always wait for later (if it even seems worth doing)	[21:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: the wp-config values are used at install time to set those in the db iirc	[21:26]
diana_coman:	not sure they are even directly used afterwards	[21:26]
diana_coman:	billymg: there is somewhere further whitelisting iirc based on blogroll; or so it was intended	[21:27]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, got it	[21:30]
diana_coman:	dorion: fwiw I can fully relate to single-focus on one thing and one thing only but with (a lot of) experience, I learnt also that it ~never works well like that over days/weeks/more and moreover it's not even as effective as it may seem; so yeah, practice a more balanced approach, it's worth it.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	cruciform: did you get lost in the relaxing one-day?	[21:32]
dorion:	thanks diana_coman. though I didn't foresee it, it makes sense in retrospect that the pattern re-emerged as I get going again. Today has been more balanced and I'm looking forward to keeping it up.	[22:01]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/05/erics-log-may-4th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — Eric's log: May 4th, 2020	[06:35]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025673 <– the first and last \| are delimiters; the i there is a modifier; not sure about the ?s myself	[10:35]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-04 21:20:05 (#ossasepia) jfw: I can't quite make out what those REs are doing, especially the starting \| and trailing \|i and ? (guessing the ? is just redundant with the there, but with all the different RE variants it could mean something entierly else for all I know…)	[10:35]
jfw:	spyked: ah right, PCRE, "I herd you like delimiters so I put delimiters in your delimiters" etc., ty.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	as part of the most recent futzing about with the theme on my blog, the text area is now based on % of the screen so hopefully that's better for everything really, logs included; I've nuked also the theme's font-minimizing imposition	[21:37]
jfw:	looking very nice including the banner diana_coman	[21:40]
diana_coman:	jfw: thank you, that's very good to hear! (because I can futz with this sort of thing until next month and I will still not like it, lol)	[21:40]
jfw:	was going to note the gray title was hard to read against the banner but I refreshed and it was fixed, heh.	[21:41]
diana_coman:	the banner is script-generated, I should set a bunch and cycle but not today	[21:42]
diana_coman:	yeah, css + positioning + colours are something I can thoroughly test all my patience with.	[21:42]
jfw:	meanwhile my patience is wearing thin with 'Zoom'; shockingly, their "how to allow us through your firewall" listing of a few dozen networks is incomplete, and DNS seems basically manditory as it looks up a few dozen things nondeterministically	[21:45]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: I run it on a toilet box of suficiently low clearance	[21:46]
BingoBoingo:	Realtime online video is a very dirty, shitty, stinky market	[21:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, is it worse than sorting out that health insurance or not just yet?	[21:47]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: likewise, but just because the box is a toilet doesn't mean I won't make sure the pipes are as well sealed as I can get them	[21:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: not just yet, heh.	[21:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: are you planning to use that zoom for lesson deliveries too?	[21:52]
jfw:	diana_coman: that's the idea	[21:52]
jfw:	I suppose a blog post on 'how to firewall zoom' might actually get some good traffic	[21:54]
diana_coman:	well, it sounds like something worth writing up and publishing, once figured out, for sure.	[21:55]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/05/disc-included-spelling-approximate/ << Ossa Sepia — Disc Included, Spelling Approximate	[23:37]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/06/erics-log-may-5th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — Eric's log: May 5th, 2020	[08:28]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-insecure-twits-the-needy-canadians-the-rsr-americans-and-ongoingly-in-this-vein-until-sanity-falls-over-and-also-beyond/ << Trilema — The insecure twits, the needy canadians, the RSR americans and ongoingly in this vein, until sanity falls over. And also — beyond.	[17:53]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what happened to you?	[21:08]
jfw:	huh, IPv4 real estate has been yielding upwards of 40% annually since 2015, per https://ipv4marketgroup.com/ipv4-pricing/ . I wonder if "alternative investment" types are onto this yet; way more fungible than domain names	[04:10]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5062020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/06/2020	[07:17]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: I the ongoing saga of lulz and acquisitions Zoom… is buying ancient turd Keybase.	[18:33]
BingoBoingo:	Deal appears to be an acqui-hire	[18:33]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025717 – lolz, though kind of following the usual pattern really.	[21:05]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-07 18:33:12 (#ossasepia) BingoBoingo: jfw: I the ongoing saga of lulz and acquisitions Zoom… is buying ancient turd Keybase.	[21:05]
diana_coman:	in fairness and looking at it from another angle – what could they buy that is not similar, after all.	[21:05]
diana_coman:	jfw: did zoom yield to running on those reasonably sealed pipes ?	[21:07]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-05 21:48:03 (#ossasepia) jfw: BingoBoingo: likewise, but just because the box is a toilet doesn't mean I won't make sure the pipes are as well sealed as I can get them	[21:07]
jfw:	indeed, people noticed their encryption is a joke, so buy the shop that "everyone" trusted to hold all the keys!	[21:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, this "people noticed" is ~0; sure, they "noticed" and … keep on using them, right?	[21:08]
jfw:	diana_coman: it wants to connect to anything and everything on port 443; it runs to some degree with a whitelist, but I've had some problems that might be resulting from that, and doesn't bode well for ongoing stability	[21:09]
diana_coman:	but yeah, from where I see it, it's pretty much a competition on perceived popularity, not on quality really, and it fits.	[21:10]
diana_coman:	I kind of doubt you'll get stability with it regardless of whether you allow it to connect to anything and everything or not, lol	[21:11]
jfw:	can't really argue there.	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion at any rate, do you plan to take advantage of this covid-induced fashion for "do not meet, go online" and push the online sessions more widely or not/what else?	[21:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: the point there is that zoom (like python, like eulora's client etc) is the sort "use it like it was the enemy because it is "	[21:16]
diana_coman:	so don't waste time trying to cater to whatever it wants/requires – set it on separate net if you have to, redundant instances or whatevers to give you the stability you want and otherwise don't waste time on it	[21:17]
jfw:	my first impulse as far as treating it like the enemy was to take a close look and try to fence it in tightly; but yeah, it taxes me more by time in playing that game	[21:21]
jfw:	and yes I figured an upside of online training would be an ability to push it more widely, but doesn't seem like we have any concrete plan for doing that. Focus has been on the handful of current prospects.	[21:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: with practical example from my latest sad experience of wasting time and a lot of effort too – basically not worth paying attention to any of the rotten stuff, not even the slightest tiny bit (because it will still eat up a lot of time, no matter how tiny or innocent or benign bit it seems to start with).	[21:29]
diana_coman:	jfw: so maybe make a plan? lol	[21:30]
diana_coman:	dorion: ^^	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: do you have current prospects at your location too or only those at dorion's ?	[21:33]
jfw:	diana_coman: by "not worth paying attention" do you mean not worth using it at all, or just being …careful about it? (reading the link)	[21:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: not worth paying attention to any of its requirements	[21:35]
jfw:	I haven't done much/any scouting here. Don't know anyone in town besides family, but there's a bunch of them so perhaps that'd make a good start for getting introductions	[21:35]
diana_coman:	so use it, sure; but use it forcefully to do what you need, and without any regard to what it says/wants/expects/whatevers	[21:35]
diana_coman:	it surely can't hurt anything and after all, why not getting to know people; yeah, at first you don't know anyone in a new town, kind of a given but doesn't have to stay that way, lol.	[21:37]
diana_coman:	now I noticed I got a spurious / in my earlier link; should just be all the way to end of para, so here's the fixed link	[21:38]
jfw:	ah ok. and yeah, I should get on that.	[21:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: while the paragraph above is specific to eulora's client and all that, hopefully it's clear enough as illustration of working with it vs working it.	[21:41]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025745 – this sounds …like that health insurance plan!	[21:42]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-07 21:39:06 (#ossasepia) jfw: ah ok. and yeah, I should get on that.	[21:42]
jfw:	like I'm already expecting it to be miserable	[21:44]
diana_coman:	more like you know you should do it but you'd really rather not do it, lol	[21:45]
jfw:	yeah, trying to find why that is though	[21:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: dunno, the very-outgoing-enjoying-meeting-random-people-jacob?	[21:53]
diana_coman:	(alternatively – it can get chaotic and it's even harder than zoom to fence in!)	[21:56]
sonofawitch:	2020-03-03 16:40:31 (#ossasepia) jfw: Can get the faster ones to help the others to some extent too, but it can get chaotic	[21:56]
jfw:	right, jacob prefers his chaos in small doses	[21:57]
diana_coman:	only this is the sort of thing where preferences shouldn't be allowed to rule the matter, really.	[21:58]
diana_coman:	on the bright side though, even strong preferences can still be …tamed let's say, with a lot of practice; possibly painful practice, might add, but it works.	[22:00]
jfw:	good to know it works at least.	[22:04]
jfw:	diana_coman: so in the eulora example, Planeshift "required" character models to work a certain way, but because it was a stupid way, the effort ended up better spent on bypassing it (while still using parts of it elsewhere) than adapting to it?	[22:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: the "requirement" seemed small and innocent since after all, what's the trouble with "characters on the ground", right? but as soon as used for anything really, it turned out to be (as it always turns out to be; if only I stop forgetting this, already) basically the first sip of a… spittoon.	[22:16]
diana_coman:	in the sort of stupid-ball that those things are, ~any part no matter how small will bring in quickly a lot of further stupid, as soon as taken at face value otherwise; because that's how the whole insanity is built in the first place, kind of layer upon layer of stupid reinforcing one another and making anything else impossible	[22:18]
diana_coman:	in principle, ~any convention re position of models can be fine; but only if implemented sanely and that's the catch there – it won't be implemented sanely because that's why the whole thing is the enemy in the first place	[22:19]
diana_coman:	it's instead implemented exactly to support the opposite of what you are trying to do; hence "the enemy"	[22:20]
diana_coman:	(in the example from eulora – no trouble to have characters on the ground if one has also the means to rotate them around their own axes; but setting them on ground because "too much trouble to do all the transformations" ends up with "can't rotate nor find out the origin " and so on)	[22:21]
diana_coman:	for that matter the part where the actual origin can't be known still boggles the mind, given that the models are given in…coordinates, wtf.	[22:22]
jfw:	and how could there not be a way to have their own transform matrix in the stack, I wonder innocently	[22:22]
diana_coman:	the short version of the whole "it's the enemy" re code would be that the code in question is built to not permit the sort of work you want to do with it; no matter in what /how small parts you look at it and no matter how it might seem at first.	[22:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: they could have, ofc; but that's how it starts, you see? they got this "convention" in not in order to have a standard (which would be a useful thing even) but because of trying to avoid "calculating transformations is Maths and it's hard!!"	[22:25]
diana_coman:	quite transparently, at that.	[22:25]
jfw:	designed to not permit – that certainly fits the zoom experience (and surely lots more too, that's just what's fresh in mind)	[22:25]
diana_coman:	well yes; I'm forgetful/soft enough to have therefore obtained a lot of practical experience and it always goes like that, yes.	[22:26]
jfw:	ahaha, one wonders how one for whom transformations is hard gets into writing 3D engines.	[22:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: ah, the Planeshift guys did not write the engine	[22:27]
diana_coman:	that's the thing, the CS is the engine and (while far from perfect), that bit is way, way saner than everything else	[22:28]
diana_coman:	and it has been in this sense built with a sane view ie it allows ofc transformations ; you'll notice I even say there that yes, I ended up using CS's rotations perfectly fine	[22:29]
diana_coman:	bypassing all of PS on top	[22:29]
diana_coman:	PS (planeshift) though is the client code really, hence client is the enemy.	[22:29]
jfw:	ah ok, I gathered PS was something on top but not sure at what level.	[22:30]
diana_coman:	ftr, the engine CS started as the work of one guy; the Planeshift game is …open source, "community effort" and all those "trims" ; that show!	[22:30]
diana_coman:	there are 3 clear layers to that thing: cs is the graphics engine; cal3d is a (reasonably sane) library for animation and is used by cs; on top of those comes the insanity aka the client aka planeshift.	[22:31]
diana_coman:	(though I do resent the single-minded focus on rasterised graphics of both cs and cal3d, they are otherwise incomparably saner than ps, for sure)	[22:33]
jfw:	the man alone at least has an easier time of maintaining conceptual integrity; the art then is to work with others in a way that supports you rather than gobbles you into The Community?	[22:34]
diana_coman:	well, supposedly that's the advantage of working alone; but the point is to work with others of same mind, not with whatever others; so don't mix the two like that, as it's quite misleading in the best of cases.	[22:35]
jfw:	so "who" rather than "how", makes sense	[22:36]
diana_coman:	and possibly how it all starts anyway – on the strength of "I can maintain conceptual integrity if alone" (and possibly assorted further "savings" of time and talk etc), the man alone finds the great way to give in to his preference for… less chaos, I think it was :P	[22:37]
diana_coman:	otherwise yes, the "how to work with enemy" can apply to more than code, sure	[22:38]
jfw:	he doth.	[22:39]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5072020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/07/2020	[10:03]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/08/an-abundance-of-bones-4th-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — An Abundance of Bones: 4th Parade of Hopefuls	[14:29]
cruciform:	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-04#1025686 yea :p – I'll be back to work today; have an update posted	[20:43]
snsabot:	Logged on 2020-05-04 15:32:17 diana_coman: cruciform: did you get lost in the relaxing one-day?	[20:43]
diana_coman:	cruciform: heh, congrats on finding the way out of it, then!	[20:58]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks! finally handed in my 30 day notice, so things are… moving! How're you?	[21:05]
diana_coman:	o.O ; notice from professional gambling? I had no idea it was a regular employment sort of thing.	[21:06]
cruciform:	I mean, for my flat	[21:06]
diana_coman:	ah, lol	[21:06]
diana_coman:	that's at least a way to make sure you are indeed moving, I guess; the where part can wait.	[21:07]
cruciform:	lol, yes – I seem to get more done when there's a fire under my arse	[21:08]
diana_coman:	that's valid for everyone really; the only thing is the threshold otherwise, lol.	[21:12]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-little-squirts-of-doom-and-other-minor-preoccupations-of-this-philistine-fin-de-siecle/ << Trilema — The little squirts of DOOM and other minor preoccupations of this philistine fin de siecle	[05:03]
jfw:	Stumbled on http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-10#1944718 – thread pretty relevant to very-outgoing-jacob.	[05:50]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-07 21:39:06 (#ossasepia) jfw: ah ok. and yeah, I should get on that.	[05:50]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-10-10 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-10-10#1944415 << I see what you mean, and this makes sense. In that case, I must confess I have not spent my time here in carolinastan taking ownership of the place. Certainly have not made and BTC/fiat interface contacts, which I do see now as foolish.	[05:50]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-10-10 mp_en_viaje: ownership of a place is a thing.	[05:50]
jfw:	lobbes & billymg, how's the de-hermitizing been going for you gents?	[05:52]
jfw:	I gather from nicoleci's recent reports that such ongoing filtration efforts form a good chunk of her work	[05:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: not even hard to stumble on something in that vein given how it's a good chunk of the logs anyway; but yes, relevant.	[09:02]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5082020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/08/2020	[09:51]
billymg:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-09#1025805 << quite well for me, made some new contacts during the arenal trip, and another just recently when getting dinner with whaack	[21:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-09 01:15:29 jfw: lobbes & billymg, how's the de-hermitizing been going for you gents?	[21:18]
jfw:	hey nice.	[21:19]
billymg:	yeah, getting out of the US helped a lot in my case	[21:19]
jfw:	ticos more interesting or receptive?	[21:20]
billymg:	well the above mentioned contacts were all gringos actually	[21:20]
billymg:	but i've made some good tico contacts as well	[21:20]
jfw:	ah, did the change of scenery change your state of mind then or how did it help?	[21:22]
billymg:	it's more that the atmosphere here is more friendly/open. you're not constantly worried that the person you're talking to might be stasi (exaggeration, i know, but people have lost careers in the US for having The Wrong Opinion)	[21:22]
diana_coman:	the sort of "career" that one loses for having "The Wrong Opinion"… such loss.	[21:22]
billymg:	jfw: yes, a bit of that as well	[21:23]
jfw:	haha, in the land of diversity & tolerance for all? impossible!	[21:23]
billymg:	diana_coman: lol	[21:23]
billymg:	diana_coman: unfortunately this is most of the silicon valley fiat spigots	[21:23]
billymg:	was just talking with former coworker this morning, realized we sorta think differently about the whole covid thing	[21:24]
billymg:	nice though that i can now just say what i think, instead of pretending to agree with the party line	[21:24]
jfw:	billymg: for sure.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	billymg: I'm sure it is and I'm not even surprised; fwiw I have refused to even answer to/go to the interview request from google; and yeah, those former uni/classmates that I know currently working in silicon valley …what can I say, it showed even ~20 years ago, there's a reason for it.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	as one of them put it "it's a ridiculous amount of money" – and that's where he stopped with any thinking, even of the sort "how much of it is just ridiculous and how much of it is actual money"	[21:27]
billymg:	diana_coman: well i was at least able to convert it into btc, property in another country. not sure how much longer that window will stay open though	[21:29]
billymg:	diana_coman: but yeah, there were a few former coworkers who i knew had their heads on straight, but for whatever reason (mortgage, family), couldn't bring themselves to leave	[21:31]
diana_coman:	I suppose he could have; I doubt he did or will, because it takes some sort of buy in to swallow up all the rest with it, what can I say; (and possibly more for him than for you given that it was more uphill for him to get there in the first place, in all likelihood)	[21:31]
billymg:	lol, most ridiculous thing was when the ny office's men's bathroom started being stocked with tampons. it was not talked about. everyone just acted as if of course that's what you do	[21:33]
billymg:	happened last summer after i had already transferred to the texas office. i came back for some even in nyc and thought i had accidentally walked into the wrong restroom	[21:33]
billymg:	event*	[21:33]
diana_coman:	ahaha, I can't imagine the thinking behind it.	[21:34]
diana_coman:	as for reasons…those are easiest to find when one looks for them, there's always plenty.	[21:35]
billymg:	diana_coman: > and possibly more for him than for you given that it was more uphill for him to get there in the first place, in all likelihood << didn't think about this angle but yes, likely true	[21:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: dunno though, I didn't get the impression that your lack of enthusiasm for getting to know people in a new town had anything to do with the "stasi danger"; does it?	[21:38]
jfw:	nah.	[21:39]
jfw:	fear of either rejection or boredom more than fear of loss I think	[21:41]
diana_coman:	thing is that ~all fears are in the end both bigger/worse than the reality (because they are not constrained by much, unlike poor reality) and limits that increasingly fence you in (~those walls meeting one another in the distance where the trap… remember?)	[21:47]
billymg:	jfw: are you still thinking of visiting cr after the borders open again?	[21:47]
diana_coman:	(can further add though perhaps that's just me – that I ~never met a fear that didn't only grow worse and bigger and nastier for not being confronted earlier; so kind of easier to kill earlier than later).	[21:49]
jfw:	diana_coman: makes sense	[21:49]
billymg:	(which the government here now says will be june 15th at the earliest)	[21:52]
jfw:	billymg: thinking of, sure; will have to see where things stand though.	[21:52]
billymg:	jfw: of course, makes sense. would be good to meet up for sure if you can	[21:53]
jfw:	billymg: thanks. I'll at least be back in Panama at some point, even if it's just to visit & pack up – another thing to decide when the time comes.	[21:56]
diana_coman:	from what it looks at least here (masks on planes/airports & quarantine at the very least), I don't see any plane travel happening in my near future, lolz.	[22:00]
diana_coman:	come to think of it, maybe it's the best time to start riding a horse – perfect for social distancing and all that, will travel Europe on horseback!	[22:00]
jfw:	there a good network of trails for that or would you end up doing some road sharing?	[22:03]
jfw:	is quite ignorant of modern equine logistics	[22:04]
diana_coman:	well, for one thing crossing the channel is kind of …sharing, lol; then in Europe itself, I'd say you could possibly go by bike nicely all the way to Eastern Europe (where roads are what they are even for cars, so what can one ask for anyway, otherwise, lol)	[22:04]
diana_coman:	heh, here in the UK they are better re horses than on the continent, if anything; but yeah, it works along the lines of "cars will wait, problem?"	[22:05]
jfw:	there you go! and yeah I assume you'd ferry or tunnel it across the channel	[22:06]
diana_coman:	I'd guess there'd be worse from a bureaucratic point of view with all the certificates required, at that.	[22:08]
diana_coman:	so I guess kid has a point ("farm ~= machinery; animals – stinky!"), lolz	[22:08]
jfw:	I imagine horses don't need license plates at least!	[22:10]
diana_coman:	and don't even have the trouble of left/right driver side!	[22:11]
diana_coman:	maybe cruciform is actually more knowledgeable re horses in the UK at least.	[22:12]
jfw:	although most everyone not-UK doesn't have that problem anymore either	[22:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's precisely the point as far as I can tell – how can one give up a unique & special problem all of their own? (come to think of it, everyone loves their own most special problem – it's what makes them unique!!)	[22:14]
diana_coman:	but in all fairness – former colonies still have it, too, heh.	[22:14]
jfw:	haha	[22:14]
trinque:	chortles at tampons in men's restrooms.	[04:31]
trinque:	I guess that's for when you sit there too long on your phone.	[04:32]
lobbes:	or perhaps really bad swamp ass	[06:37]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-09#1025790 << I was actually starting to explore more bits of Charlotte before everything closed. Now, not so much public stuff to explore.	[06:37]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-05-09 04:02:01 jfw: lobbes & billymg, how's the de-hermitizing been going for you gents?	[06:37]
lobbes:	Though I still keep in touch with all the same people I did before via the internet/phone/etc (also a great means to meet new people too, as always). But yeah, I ought to start trying to find more local connections while I'm here..	[06:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5092020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/09/2020	[17:49]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/you-would-have-loved-her/ << Bimbo Club — You would have loved her.	[05:22]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5102020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/10/2020	[07:54]
jfw:	On the late train again for review (as must have been predictable upon missing it Friday). My motivation & morale was pretty low overall this week.	[07:59]
jfw:	think I'm bouncing back though; been getting excited about a project to cast a wide net and see what life-forms it turns up	[08:02]
jfw:	billymg: got those patches done	[08:04]
jfw:	lobbes: the famous "ought to"s, heh.	[08:05]
diana_coman:	jfw: glad to hear that idea did catch your interest	[08:16]
diana_coman:	on a more general note though I do kind of wonder at just what huge lack of interest in anything and of any sort seems to be the norm.	[08:17]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/11/jfw-review-week-of-4-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 4 May 2020	[10:35]
billymg:	jfw: ack, working on the updates to the code embed patch to place on top of those now	[16:48]
jurov:	#therealbitcoin channel is up	[19:59]
diana_coman:	the logs for that #therealbitcoin seem to be so far at http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/therealbitcoin only.	[20:17]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/furia/ << Trilema — Furia	[00:33]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/mente-vazia-oficina-do-diabo/ << Bimbo Club — Mente vazia, oficina do diabo	[10:35]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5112020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/11/2020	[11:00]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/12/fashionable-hopefuls-a-bit-of-escher-under-the-skin/ << Ossa Sepia — Fashionable Hopefuls: A Bit of Escher under the Skin	[16:04]
billymg:	re: code embed patch: should have it posted by tomorrow. it will also include server-side selection. it's working locally now i just need to self-review/cleanup before publishing the patch	[18:04]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/an-absolutely-filthy-recipe-for-mirroring-debian-repositories << The Tar Pit — An absolutely filthy recipe for mirroring Debian repositories	[18:13]
diana_coman:	billymg: sounds good, no rush.	[20:55]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/inherit-the-wind/ << Trilema — Inherit the wind	[08:01]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5122020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/12/2020	[09:51]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/13/fashionable-hopefuls-the-river-of-eyes/ << Ossa Sepia — Fashionable Hopefuls: the River of Eyes	[20:32]
jfw:	I'll be out most of tomorrow, heading up the coast to help with spring opening of the 'dacha'.	[21:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: sounds like a fun break at least so have fun!	[21:27]
jfw:	thanks!	[21:27]
dorion:	jfw nice, enjoy! will you dare dip in the ocean ?	[21:31]
jfw:	dorion: not likely (the access anyway is to a river estuary but close enough)	[21:32]
diana_coman:	cannot understand being next to water and not dip!	[21:33]
dorion:	yeah I mean at least wade in, lol.	[21:34]
jfw:	I'm not much of an ice cold showers type. Spoiled Americans I guess	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, you haven't known then southern Italians, lol; but no, it's more to do with water than with temperature.	[21:37]
jfw:	well you can't quite have one without the other.	[21:40]
diana_coman:	indeed; but you can care about one and not about the other.	[21:41]
jfw:	enjoys watching lava flows too but can't quite bring self to not care about the temperature	[21:44]
jfw:	it's true though, there are those who don't mind the frigid waters.	[21:45]
diana_coman:	lol, lava flows and frigid waters; at least it's clear you certainly care about temperature first and foremost, what.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	but yeah, it's fun to get those used to the Baltic/North Sea to some warmer waters ("it's like swimming in the soup!!") and the other way around ("it's like getting into the freezer!!!")	[21:49]
jfw:	I can't quite imagine someone not liking the warmer waters but will have to try that sometime.	[21:50]
diana_coman:	so many likes are a matter of habit (and deeper than that – a matter of wider specific adaptation really) that it's not really all that hard to throw people off if you want to; part and parcel of having lived in many places though is getting to see just how much of what people claim otherwise as fixed and "the truth" and all that is in the end just a matter of context really.	[21:57]
jfw:	had to read a couple times but I think I get that.	[22:05]
jfw:	we like what we're familiar with & able to handle	[22:05]
diana_coman:	comfortable to handle even, yes; and that comfortable can be quite genuine especially in this sort of physical matters – it's what the body has already adapted to, simply; as a concrete example, brits tend to genuinely dislike "hot weather" which is nowhere near "hot" by Italian standards	[22:07]
diana_coman:	and the main reason for it as far as I can tell is that the temperatures here tend to be relatively stable so there's way less adaptation to handling quick changes, whether up or down	[22:08]
diana_coman:	for that matter, after 10 years here, I noticed that I don't handle all that well anymore e.g. 30+ & humid in my home town although I never used to mind it that much before.	[22:10]
diana_coman:	but the lesson in all this is simply that one can adapt a whole lot more than one might think at first – it just takes time.	[22:11]
diana_coman:	(the 30+ is Celsius)	[22:12]
jfw:	somehow I seem to have got less tolerant of the tropical 30+ every day & variably humid after living there a while, and enjoying the swings up here	[22:14]
diana_coman:	that sounds more like boredom with the lack of change, lol	[22:16]
diana_coman:	(and yeah, I still miss a proper winter for instance and more specifically the contrast, indeed)	[22:16]
jfw:	yeah, need adaptation plus a bit of challenge / novelty.	[22:17]
jfw:	although the year-round-spring places don't sound too bad.	[22:18]
diana_coman:	dunno, I quite like autumn and winter; after a while spring genuinely gets on my nerves, lol	[22:18]
jfw:	I hear ya.	[22:19]
diana_coman:	poor deedbot, what's with its connection today	[22:21]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/13/jfw-plan-week-of-11-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 11 May 2020	[22:53]
jfw:	and with that, I take the lead for most articles published on YH.C, muahahaha!	[22:55]
whaack:	raises an eyebrow as he outlines an article to break his silent streak.	[03:34]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5132020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/13/2020	[09:55]
diana_coman:	ha, congrats jfw !	[10:05]
diana_coman:	and let's review the situation on Monday, heh	[10:05]
feedbot:	http://billymg.com/2020/05/updated-vpatch-add-embeddable-codeblocks-and-the-server-side-select-mechanism/ << billymg — Updated vpatch: Add embeddable codeblocks and the server-side select mechanism	[21:03]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/14/fashionable-hopefuls-impressionistically-naive-and-slightly-surreal/ << Ossa Sepia — Fashionable Hopefuls: Impressionistically Naive and Slightly Surreal	[21:19]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/what-ive-been-up-to/ << whaack — What I've Been Up To	[21:42]
diana_coman:	whaack: the core "trick" may very well be to remember that you do find enjoyment in being productive, too.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	it's not a separated matter like that and it doesn't help either, to separate matters into "work" and "fun"	[21:53]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5142020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/14/2020	[10:40]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/15/fashionable-hopefuls-to-the-skies-and-outer-space/ << Ossa Sepia — Fashionable Hopefuls: To the Skies and Outer Space	[13:05]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/let-it-ride/ << Trilema — Let It Ride	[14:43]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/15/fashionable-hopefuls-illustrated-trigonometry-with-a-side-of-turbulence/ << Ossa Sepia — Fashionable Hopefuls: Illustrated Trigonometry with a Side of Turbulence	[17:26]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/names-of-scale-degrees-and-the-three-forms-of-minor-scales/ << whaack — Names of Scale Degrees and The Three Forms of Minor Scales	[20:53]
diana_coman:	billymg: the log-articles are in fact the very reason why I was asking a few days earlier if you knew by any chance how to make archive views unpaginated; I still haven't gotten around to dig into that but at some point I will; following up on your comment though – what do you see so wrong with logs that you'd …quarantine them rather than treat them like any other text?	[21:07]
diana_coman:	for reference, the relevant comment – if anyone else feels strongly that somehow logs are not articles, I'd be quite curious to hear the full argument – why are they not articles?	[21:13]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow	[21:25]
jfw:	some possible arguments come to mind there but I don't feel strongly about it.	[21:41]
jfw:	one thing I don't like about wordpress as a whole, whether or not used for logs, is the lack of any raw export, thus the need for lossy & inefficient spidering if one wishes to preserve someone else's.	[21:43]
jfw:	(if you were Google, how would you even make a log+comment search that worked well? refresh the whole blog daily?)	[21:44]
jfw:	even mediawiki can do this, though some operators don't seem to find it important	[21:46]
jfw:	(of course you could use the rss feeds to drive a search indexer, though that would miss edits or updates of a real-time log.)	[21:50]
billymg:	diana_coman: replied to your comment. i think the main thing i'm missing is the "why" behind putting the logs in mpwp, rather than, say, improving/extending the logotron	[05:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: the raw log exporter is something on my list to add and it's no different from the old stuff which is itself a dump of raw data, so nothing to do with mpwp or anything else	[08:55]
diana_coman:	billymg: the "why" in the shortest and calmest manner I can muster: because it's not needed; it's an additional headache without any benefits and by headache I mean – a whole pile of additional stuff to maintain (that flask thing surely was mentioned in the logs but note that it requires in turn a whole set of ???, look at it sometime); the lack of permanence ultimately because look at it, if I stop logging a channel, I'm stuck …	[09:01]
diana_coman:	… with either breaking down everyone's links or otherwise keeping the dead channel's logs in the way instead of basically still where they were but correctly a matter of the past	[09:01]
diana_coman:	and for the record, I don't think it's the right direction there this "why not struggle with that shit some more instead of making use of what is way more useful anyway"; yes, I made the mistake of using that; no, this doesn't mean that I have to keep throwing good time after the bad.	[09:03]
diana_coman:	note that I'm not introducing a new thing, quite on the contrary, I'm trimming away stuff.	[09:03]
diana_coman:	and answered the comment on the blog too as apparently there were quite a few things to clarify.	[09:46]
diana_coman:	for easy follow up, the answer	[09:46]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5152020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/15/2020	[10:00]
cruciform:	Disappointingly, the horse is usually better-looking than the rider http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-09#1025859	[11:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-09 17:36:02 diana_coman: maybe cruciform is actually more knowledgeable re horses in the UK at least.	[11:45]
diana_coman:	ahaha cruciform, that's the proper take on it, channeling last of the dandies muskham and all that.	[12:06]
cruciform:	diana_coman, are you referring to this?	[13:48]
diana_coman:	cruciform: neah; galsworthy's forsyte saga /continuation (iirc it was on top of/after the end of the main saga as such); and you know, "this" is not very helpful to link on – put the name of the thing there, way more helpful.	[14:04]
diana_coman:	muskham was passionate about horses; by contrast, he was polite and respectful to ladies, lol.	[14:06]
diana_coman:	he could appreciate a lady too – to the extent that she showed a good eye for the horses!	[14:07]
cruciform:	lol – seems English women	[14:10]
cruciform:	have been ugly for a while, then	[14:10]
diana_coman:	well, supposedly there used to be at least something for the "English rose" but what can I say there.	[14:11]
cruciform:	they look more like bags of fertiliser, nowadays	[14:12]
diana_coman:	lol, at least that promises good growth!	[14:13]
diana_coman:	but well, go where the beautiful women are, what.	[14:13]
cruciform:	and an upcoming 2 for Â£10 special	[14:13]
cruciform:	"I don't like where I live" "so move!" didn't occur to me for over a year – weird	[14:15]
diana_coman:	you know, this thing with "3 for 2" and so on – it took me a lot of time to get my head around; why the fuck would I buy more than I wanted to buy in the first place; and why the hell does it even still end up more expensive than e.g. bigger packs at times (only yeah, had to calculate for 5 minutes to figure it exactly, what with the weird measurement system and all)	[14:15]
diana_coman:	it does sound…weird, indeed.	[14:16]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/sodomy/ << Trilema — Sodomy	[17:38]
billymg:	diana_coman: thank you for your reply and for patiently explaining the purpose of the tool/project. i think there was a lot of context i was missing but now i understand it. left a reply on your blog too	[18:52]
diana_coman:	billymg: answered there – it's indeed as you summarised it in your last comment; and no worries, way better to discuss and clarify matters + now they are on record so handy to give the link to anyone else who might come in wondering "why"	[20:40]
diana_coman:	ftr and in case it's not clear, there is an argument that can be made that the old logger has a salvageable part, namely strictly the irc-frontend, if one is so inclined; it's really the web side that brings in the whole shit and trouble.	[20:49]
diana_coman:	(well, assuming that python itself is not classed as full trouble anyway, which is debatable.)	[20:49]
jfw:	^ or psql	[21:07]
diana_coman:	possibly with irc-side only, the switch to whichever one prefers can be made relatively painlessly; not that I really tried it but normally it shouldn't be a huge pain (unless it's my optimism speaking again)	[21:12]
jfw:	my own bias (as not-a-databases-professional) would be switching mp-wp to work with psql and using that only (shouldn't be huge pain!!)	[21:14]
diana_coman:	ahaha; why?	[21:15]
jfw:	for instance because psql had grownup features like transactions from early days whereas mysql had them bolted on by oracle	[21:15]
jfw:	my recollection is the traditional MyISAM storage engine is not crash-proof.	[21:16]
diana_coman:	I really worked with people who were die-hard supporters of psql and moreover I used psql myself for years back in academia under the exact "it's more robust!! and faster!! and not-bolted on!!!!11"; having afterwards equally worked with people who found mysql the better of the 2, I can say that …it's the people, not the tool (ie it depends on how well the operator knows psql/mysql).	[21:17]
jfw:	I also liked that it did unix socket authentication out of the box without "plugin"; why should I need password auth when it's all on the same box	[21:17]
diana_coman:	iirc the whole psql vs mysql has already had repeated discussions in #t too with the conclusion ~likely there will be both	[21:19]
jfw:	also stronger type-checking comes to mind (though perhaps that was only compared to sqlite)	[21:19]
diana_coman:	and yeah, I can see it; only atm there's no tmsr anymore and so the "both" is more like "as many and as diverse as each wants because ultimately they are anyway on their own"	[21:20]
jfw:	would have needed a dependable lord of the database in order to benefit from picking <small number>?	[21:21]
jfw:	nah that doesn't sound right.	[21:22]
jfw:	in order to benefit from picking "supported database" rather. There's still benefit in reducing the proliferation, seems to me.	[21:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: no, not at all ; and tbh I have no idea where this idea of "lord of X " came from; yeah, as I said, I did read jurov's chan log so I saw trinque's line with it but I'm still scratching my head as to where it came from	[21:22]
diana_coman:	yes, supported database is different indeed	[21:23]
diana_coman:	and the point is supported by …which sovereign (most pointedly not "which lord")	[21:23]
jfw:	weren't the minimal requirements to lordship 1) attendance in the forum and 2) the fief – something important that you owned / took care of?	[21:24]
jfw:	and many of the titles were along the lines of "lord of X"	[21:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes; that doesn't translate in any sane way to "lord of database"	[21:24]
diana_coman:	yes, you might notice that it wasn't lord of mysql, lol	[21:25]
diana_coman:	arguably of the whole set mine was even the most "specific" but if you look at just what eulora comprises….	[21:25]
diana_coman:	possibly the most concrete rather than specific	[21:25]
diana_coman:	trinque: out of curiosity, how do you even go from "lord of that realm" to "lord of pulling this lever"?	[21:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: anyway, to get back to your earlier statement – I agree that there is still benefit in reducing the proliferation, sure.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	for that matter there is still benefit in a small number of choices really (and mainly for newcomers since they would not end up wasting time "how do I choose")	[21:32]
diana_coman:	but what can poor benefits do on their own – as history amply shows, not all that much, no.	[21:33]
jfw:	ok. What sort of realms was the lordship about then? A set of duties + whatever knowledge or capital required to execute them?	[21:34]
jfw:	that seems possibly another way of saying "this lever" though.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	ugh, no;	[21:35]
diana_coman:	thing is – I distinctly recall it was in #t discussed even with examples from history so I'm not fully sure what can I add precisely to make that clear since apparently it was about as clear as mud, huh.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	the core point missing in the above though and precisely the opposite of "pulling this lever" is exactly… making own thing that one therefore owns, how to even put this clearer; NOT "awaiting for the duties + resources" but building one's own stuff and therefore being the lord of it, ugh	[21:38]
diana_coman:	and myeah, I can see this "waiting patiently and all-willingly for the duties+resources" – that's how it does NOT work.	[21:39]
diana_coman:	there's a difference between executing vs coming up with the thing to execute basically; the lordship was precisely meant to recognize the ability and deed of the latter, not the former.	[21:42]
diana_coman:	sure, quite often and esp in the beginning one does both, but the execute part always comes after the other and there was a huge lack of that other first and foremost.	[21:43]
jfw:	struggling for what to ask, still pretty confused I guess. So there's no answer to "what sort of thing is one lord of" because it's about each coming up with his own "thing"?	[21:53]
diana_coman:	jfw: if you ask "of what sort of thing" , the answer would be – of a fief; if you expect that all fiefs are the same, uhm.	[21:59]
jfw:	would an example be: at first there's no logger; someone realizes logging is important and makes one; sovereign decides it's good and grants recognition of the ability that brought it about (along with, I took it, duty to keep it working / answer questions about it) ?	[22:01]
diana_coman:	for that matter, the very term "marquis/marquess" comes from …lord of the march/borders, basically go ye there at the very borders and …build them up	[22:01]
diana_coman:	build them up and/or expand them as much as you are able to	[22:01]
diana_coman:	can't find that #t thread now, grrr	[22:02]
diana_coman:	possibly trinque can find it since it was precisely the thread re deedbot	[22:10]
jfw:	http://trilema.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year/#footnote_0_64932 re definition of lord + fief	[22:12]
diana_coman:	ah, finally realised why I couldn't find it, since I forgot about the mp_en_viaje handle, huh; here: http://trilema.com/2020/forum-logs-for-21-oct-2019/#2566637	[22:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: and further note that none was ever the case of a random/assigned "pick"; it was always the only way it can even make sense – X comes in and does on own initiative some useful Y, the competence is recognised and as part of this recognition they get what is basically a shot at making money and fame and whatever else they want out of it	[22:19]
diana_coman:	apparently though the want was wanting or did that go.	[22:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: does that make it any clearer?	[22:21]
jfw:	getting there.	[22:22]
trinque:	lordship is being one of the authors of culture, and that's it.	[23:42]
trinque:	the lordship failed because most of the folks involved were not independently wealthy and lacked the time to do said authoring.	[23:43]
trinque:	meanwhile pretending they had by cramming w/e they could into their evenings and nights	[23:43]
trinque:	diana_coman: re: "lord of this here lever" I mean that sitting on whatever crap one built and calling that a "fief" is not the authorship above-mentioned	[23:46]
trinque:	also, because in the past people have assumed I'm excluding myself from statements like ^, I'm most certainly not.	[00:19]
trinque:	at any rate, jfw I already did the postgres port if you or billymg want it	[00:20]
trinque:	d'oh, wrong lever!	[00:23]
trinque:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-16#1025991 << clearly I gotta find a way to denote when I'm mocking something better!	[00:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-16 16:45:55 jfw: would have needed a dependable lord of the database in order to benefit from picking <small number>?	[00:24]
trinque:	anyway, that's being a technician at best.	[00:26]
trinque:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-16#1025997 << this definition doesn't seem to have worked, so I'd be careful about internalizing it.	[00:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-16 16:48:22 jfw: weren't the minimal requirements to lordship 1) attendance in the forum and 2) the fief – something important that you owned / took care of?	[00:27]
trinque:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-16#1026003 << the problem here is that "realm" became so term-of-art as to become meaningless, exactly the same way socialists invert meaning.	[00:28]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-16 16:52:01 diana_coman: trinque: out of curiosity, how do you even go from "lord of that realm" to "lord of pulling this lever"?	[00:28]
trinque:	realm does not mean place in the same way sovereign does not mean person.	[00:32]
trinque:	seems I'm late to the party, so I'll try and catch y'all earlier tomorrow.	[00:34]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026033 – I'd love to have it, if only for safe keeping; and why not publish anyway since you did the work. (/me glares at own pile of unsung code…) That said, I'm not likely to test it any time soon and will probably end up moving toward "mysql all the things" unless a strong reason turns up	[02:49]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-17 00:20:31 (#ossasepia) trinque: at any rate, jfw I already did the postgres port if you or billymg want it	[02:49]
jfw:	some further reading satisfied me for now that the aforementioned psql bias is ill-founded, as diana_coman suggests. My own experience with non-GUI databases started with mysql (back when it indeed didn't have transactions or foreign key constraints, which left a bad taste), and my production infrastructure currently contains two mysql instances compared to zero psql.	[02:54]
trinque:	because publishing has a certain standard, namely it working. this was just a hack I hammered out one afternoon, will see if I can find it	[03:26]
trinque:	jfw: yeah, mysql's gotten way better over the years, and most of the rep comes from the early days.	[03:28]
trinque:	that said psql has proved to me over about a decade of use that it's extremely reliable, and so I tend to prefer it.	[03:29]
trinque:	one needn't be totalitarian about these things imho	[03:30]
jfw:	trinque: I'm not in a position to be anyway, but it's a matter of "do I spend my limited hours on learning multiple large things or one large thing better"	[03:32]
trinque:	totally sensible	[03:33]
jfw:	trinque: meant to say – publishing doesn't have to be only "finished products"; as diana_coman's often pointed out, it can simply be about what is, or what you're up to, or what you tried, or plans… I've published drafts, dumps of notes, etc., just properly noted as such, and have yet to hear any complaints about these	[04:05]
trinque:	yup, just working on a different item to publish, not so focused on wp atm. seems billymg has it in hand.	[04:14]
trinque:	but I think you're right, and I could write more.	[04:14]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5162020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/16/2020	[09:49]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026029 – I think the matter goes deeper than that; I'll note first that "wealth" is NOT the same thing as cash + assets + whatever else "has X" you come up with, just in case any log reader has such ideas (all history + literature provide plenty of examples as to how and why wealth is not essentially a "having" as much as a "being"); perhaps a clearer way to look at it …	[09:59]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-16 23:43:14 (#ossasepia) trinque: the lordship failed because most of the folks involved were not independently wealthy and lacked the time to do said authoring.	[09:59]
diana_coman:	… is that the people involved still had lower-level problems to solve before they could meaningfully tackle the problems of "lordship", as simple as that; not a matter of "didn't have time, if only someone would have given them this or that or the other", no; ftr and exactly the reason why I even mentioned the original meaning of the term marquis/marquess – those were not going to the sticks essentially because "they were …	[09:59]
diana_coman:	… independently wealthy", what the fuck.	[09:59]
diana_coman:	if anything, they were going there exactly because they were not yet independently wealthy – that was their chance to become though and some made it, some didn't.	[10:00]
diana_coman:	which ones made it and which didn't had nothing to do with how much time they had, either.	[10:01]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026038 – absent the structure, the whole thing is purely of historical/academic interest, there is nothing to internalise as such.	[10:06]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-17 00:27:18 (#ossasepia) trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-16#1025997 << this definition doesn't seem to have worked, so I'd be careful about internalizing it.	[10:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-16 16:48:22 jfw: weren't the minimal requirements to lordship 1) attendance in the forum and 2) the fief – something important that you owned / took care of?	[10:06]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026042 – indeed, this is absolutely true.	[10:07]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-17 00:32:06 (#ossasepia) trinque: realm does not mean place in the same way sovereign does not mean person.	[10:07]
diana_coman:	lobbes: let me know if there was something you wanted to discuss today.	[10:14]
trinque:	diana_coman: I also wasn't claming that someone ought to have given us anything. was exactly pointing to the lower-level problems you mention.	[17:06]
trinque:	wealth indeed is not simply money.	[17:06]
diana_coman:	seems we are pretty much on the same page there, then.	[20:47]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-pool-party/ << Trilema — The pool party	[23:25]
feedbot:	http://www.krankendenken.com/2020/05/collecting-the-scattered-bits-and-doing-something-useful/ << Krankendenken — Collecting the scattered bits and doing something useful	[02:50]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-17#1026053 << sorry, I should have been around. No, I didn't have anything to discuss this week	[03:11]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-05-17 08:24:50 diana_coman: lobbes: let me know if there was something you wanted to discuss today.	[03:11]
lobbes:	Thinking on it, I haven't really needed the standing meetings. I'm fine to just drop them going forward and if I need to discuss something I'll just reach out in channel (though ty for letting me try out the idea).	[03:11]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-11#1025861 << infamous "ought to"s is more like it…	[03:12]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-05-11 06:15:44 jfw: lobbes: the famous "ought to"s, heh.	[03:12]
diana_coman:	lobbes: it's been more of a not-try-the-idea-out but anyway, fine.	[09:44]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/18/jfw-review-week-of-11-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 11 May 2020	[10:14]
diana_coman:	jfw: the night-time review!	[10:16]
jfw:	, the return of ~	[10:17]
diana_coman:	maybe I really should change the name thus, it will surely sound at least way more exciting	[10:17]
diana_coman:	so welcome back to the review then, indeed.	[10:17]
jfw:	bows, goes to get some sleep, plan will have to come tomorrow	[10:19]
diana_coman:	sleep well	[10:20]
billymg:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-16#1026033 << i wouldn't mind taking a look, if anything just so i could try it out locally	[14:47]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-16 19:44:38 trinque: at any rate, jfw I already did the postgres port if you or billymg want it	[14:47]
billymg:	if no one objects, the next patch will rip out js and whatever features depend on it. this will be similar in absolute terms (LOCs/bytes) to the first major round of trimming	[15:17]
diana_coman:	billymg: from my point of view js can go without any trouble; the only possibly-useful feature requiring it and that I'm aware of was editing the url of an article from the gui; from my pov the main question though would be – how separate the js is from everything else in the code so as not to take out/break something entirely different, really.	[21:00]
jfw:	imo if there's to be a web editor anyway, it needs to be able to do all editing tasks (such as that permalink editing), and there shouldn't be any 'dead widgets' (as there are when JS is simply disabled client-side). That's where it might get tricky, but dunno how bad.	[21:13]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026044 – I do hope that pile of stuff glared back at you, jfw !	[21:20]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-17 02:49:50 (#ossasepia) jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026033 – I'd love to have it, if only for safe keeping; and why not publish anyway since you did the work. (/me glares at own pile of unsung code…) That said, I'm not likely to test it any time soon and will probably end up moving toward "mysql all the things" unless a strong reason turns up	[21:20]
jfw:	diana_coman: if it had eyes, it would have.	[21:29]
jfw:	ftr, jfw finally barfs, as the saying goes.	[21:39]
snsabot:	(therealbitcoin) 2020-05-18 jfw: Curious game, only way to win is…	[21:39]
diana_coman:	goes to read latest dramaz	[21:42]
diana_coman:	lol, I didn't realise trb was alf-tech nao.	[21:44]
billymg:	diana_coman, jfw: yes, this will be a surgical snip, not a simple `find ./mp-wp/ -iname “*.js” \| xargs rm`	[21:44]
jfw:	billymg: sounds good then!	[21:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: see, trb is this temple built by lazy ignoramus shitoshi, and it stinks, why doesn't he come back and clean it up for us!	[21:47]
diana_coman:	dorion: how's that balanced week/time going for you?	[21:47]
trinque:	what happened to "there is no we, only V"	[22:11]
trinque:	who gives a fuck who likes whom? write patches, if folks sign, or not, what	[22:11]
diana_coman:	trinque: I don't think anyone proposed anywhere they would not do whatever code development they wanted to do anyway, or anything of the sort.	[22:16]
trinque:	sure, I just said that, but in Texan	[22:16]
trinque:	:D	[22:16]
diana_coman:	trinque: lolz; fwiw though, there are precious few people actually publishing whatever it is they are doing.	[22:18]
jfw:	'Texan' – ah ok, I was scratching head. I certainly have no objections to anyone using or signing my patches!	[22:19]
diana_coman:	trinque: and out of curiosity, why do you ask if people want it? as above, publish it if you made it anyway and don't intend otherwise to keep it private, no?	[22:19]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-17 00:20:31 (#ossasepia) trinque: at any rate, jfw I already did the postgres port if you or billymg want it	[22:19]
trinque:	I try not to do the open-source "code hucked over wall" thing, but otherwise have no objection.	[22:19]
diana_coman:	you mean you do code hucked within the walls but not over the walls? lol	[22:21]
diana_coman:	(I'm genuinely curious, nothing more)	[22:21]
trinque:	yeah, I have all manner of experiments laying here in there	[22:21]
trinque:	*and	[22:21]
trinque:	I published early on the cuntoo project, and that didn't seem to have worked.	[22:23]
diana_coman:	and what's the cost/downside to publishing them even signed with hucked-shit-key ? honestly, I never ever regretted documenting even shit attempts	[22:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: that sounds like you expected some specific "worked" and it wasn't that so "did not work"	[22:23]
diana_coman:	I certainly tried it out and provided feedback; others too; you have it there and used it to support talks eg re tmsros or even why "not that way" ; so dunno – how "not worked"?	[22:24]
trinque:	sure, got feedback, but it was too big an item to push by myself.	[22:25]
diana_coman:	sure; what's that to do with publish/not publish though?	[22:25]
trinque:	I suppose we differ on whether a person that publishes "wp ported to postgres" that doesn't actually work has done something useful?	[22:27]
trinque:	I personally would feel obligated to make it work if I published.	[22:27]
trinque:	which is the right pressure for the right item, but not that one.	[22:27]
trinque:	brb	[22:28]
diana_coman:	trinque: uhm, why; publish it as "this is my shit attempt that does not work; but I explored this and that and learnt why it's not worth it"; listen, there's way more to learn from a published stuff than the "will grab this and it works"	[22:28]
trinque:	so maybe there's also some narcissism in there too.	[22:29]
diana_coman:	and as for everything else there is that part where it's not possible to tell upfront in what way it will turn out useful.	[22:29]
diana_coman:	possibly; the thing is that the way it looks, you lock yourself into such a narrow thing that indeed, there's very, very little that can get out; honestly, it's not a problem in any possible way for me; I just fail to see how it's useful in the least for you, that's all.	[22:30]
trinque:	some works take a long time.	[22:31]
trinque:	for example the one I'm working on as a continuation of the OS thread	[22:31]
diana_coman:	yes; and there's no need to publish-only-at-the-end; (fwiw I was never naturally "write and publish"; hell, not even naturally "talk")	[22:32]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5182020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/18/2020	[09:59]
billymg:	i'm going to end up doing some cleanup in wp-admin/css/ — does anyone care about the 'rtl' css (for right-to-left language support)?	[17:10]
billymg:	i'm guessing no but figured i'd ask before removing those	[17:10]
diana_coman:	billymg: confirmed, I can't care less about rtl; (iirc I might have even ripped some of it already during one of the walks through the code, as it is, huh)	[18:09]
billymg:	diana_coman: excellent	[18:27]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/19/how-would-they-be-different-with-cavemans-drawings-by-computer/ << Ossa Sepia — How Would They Be Different? With Caveman's Drawings by Computer	[19:11]
jfw:	billymg: no objection here. First you give 'em diacritics, next thing you know all your artwork has been duplicated and turned upside down huh	[21:23]
jfw:	but still not enough, because then it'll be "must support multiple writing directions fully themed on the same page"	[21:27]
diana_coman:	eh, who even cares to go through the exercise of what's next, lol	[21:29]
jfw:	diana_coman: not you I gather.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	possibly too old for that, yes.	[21:32]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-1/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 1	[03:28]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/how-i-work-in-reivew-i/ << Bimbo Club — How I work in reivew – I.	[03:47]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/lasagna-other-factors-of-domestic-tranquility/ << Trilema — Lasagna & other factors of domestic tranquility	[09:06]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5192020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/19/2020	[10:11]
diana_coman:	jfw: does the plan work better as a post-script to the week "these are the things I'd have liked to have done"? lolz	[20:48]
diana_coman:	lobbes: as it's past half-month anyway – where are you at this month and what do you intend to get done the remaining ~2 weeks?	[20:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: maybe so, think I should try that? :D	[21:06]
diana_coman:	jfw: what, do you have the plan ready so as to not-try-that? :P	[21:08]
jfw:	there's a coupla days yet!	[21:08]
diana_coman:	true, true; still: post-poning and post-planning; post-modernism!	[21:09]
diana_coman:	can still work for review anyway – here's what I'd have liked, here's what I did; conclusion – hm.	[21:10]
jfw:	don't think I used to post-post the plans but then, they didn't used to be that realistic either	[21:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: technically not used to post-post indeed but to the extent that they ended up anyway ~same result as now when post-post, it raises precisely the question as to what is the actual difference then?	[21:15]
diana_coman:	though as Nicole says, good enough by own standards, what!	[21:16]
diana_coman:	though hm, apparently she doesn't have that select working	[21:16]
jfw:	is that some French thing, the rei-vew?	[21:19]
jfw:	and yeah, perhaps little actual difference	[21:20]
diana_coman:	ahaha, how would I know? ask her	[21:20]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-2/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 2	[06:26]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5202020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/20/2020	[10:18]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-omnistatement/ << Trilema — The Omnistatement	[11:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/21/illustrated-mirroring-and-collapsing-of-points/ << Ossa Sepia — Illustrated Mirroring and Collapsing of Points	[14:42]
billymg:	diana_coman (and others who were already using image upload scripts rather than wp's gui uploader): do you see any use for the "Media Library" at wp-admin/upload.php ?	[18:49]
billymg:	because the way i understand it, if you're uploading your images via scp they won't show up in that list, unless you also have a script that generates the db entries for each image	[18:51]
diana_coman:	billymg: I don't care about that media library, no	[18:55]
billymg:	yeah, after seeing the light of bulk-processing images via scripts rather than using the gui i think even for those still using the gui it's a case of http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024027	[18:56]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 16:14:08 diana_coman: ie make the trunk of mpwp so that I'm 2x more productive using it than whatever entrenched habits I might have, and I'll change the darned habits already	[18:56]
billymg:	at the moment i'm leaning towards just ripping the whole thing out and including a sample image processing script in a blog post	[19:03]
billymg:	doesn't see himself ever needing to navigate to "Media Library" tab again after adopting script-based image workflow	[19:04]
diana_coman:	billymg: the way this went was that previous to making scripts, I'd ~avoid publishing images, pretty much; and tbh given how many images I had to publish with this graphics work, I think I would have made the scripts now if I didn't have them already	[20:57]
diana_coman:	so yeah, it's really a huge improvement, quite of the usual sort obtained when ditching the gui and actually using command line properly.	[20:58]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/a-fost-sau-n-a-fost/ << Trilema — A fost sau n-a fost ?	[21:07]
jfw:	I'm not sure; if you remove the ability to do things except by local shell access to the server, does that mean sites like younghands where multiple authors can edit their own stuff with permissions managed by the php are out of spec?	[21:14]
diana_coman:	jfw: there is that, basically risking a tree-branching on single vs multi-author support	[21:19]
jfw:	although the part where 'media library' metadata has to be in database but media itself in filesystem, and scp uploading doesn't actually "add it to library", suggests the thing isn't done at all correctly, and cutting it would be strictly beneficial as losing something that never worked.	[21:29]
diana_coman:	hence my above tree-branching – because it's more the sort of thing that needs not as much a not-cut but a re-work and that might be justified for the multi-author case but not that much for single author.	[21:32]
jfw:	ah ok. At risk of re-treading old ground – I also wonder if the admin GUI as a whole is justified for the single-author case. I use it, but possibly as an entrenched habit where I'd be better off learning something else	[21:35]
diana_coman:	that's pretty much where it goes, yes	[21:36]
diana_coman:	jfw, billymg I guess the main part re gui that I can see needing some proper porting would be the preview	[21:40]
jfw:	as in, a way to insert a row with draft flag set and derive a preview URL?	[21:43]
diana_coman:	inserting it with draft flag is fine; the preview url creation is unclear to me currently – I never really looked into how that preview is done	[21:44]
jfw:	hm, I also wonder if pingbacks work at all when manually inserting. though we know that whole mechanism needs a look	[21:44]
diana_coman:	I suppose in a way the whole exercise actually turns around how much does one rely on php for admin basically.	[21:45]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, pingbacks work since basically this "manual inserting" is what sonofawitch does, after all.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	and the log article does send pingbacks, I didn't specifically bother to do it or anything	[21:46]
diana_coman:	though at the same time, the current pingback mechanism is "working" as in it sends about 1/4	[21:46]
diana_coman:	so it actually needs a fix anyway	[21:46]
jfw:	you're sure it wasn't just the once when you combined existing ones into May?	[21:46]
diana_coman:	yeah, some of the others sent too	[21:47]
diana_coman:	and moreover, added stuff to it also sent pingbacks	[21:47]
jfw:	it's smarter than I thought apparently	[21:47]
diana_coman:	logically speaking it should be a trigger simply, I did expect it to work; the trouble is that it doesn't seem to always trigger, even normally, lol.	[21:48]
jfw:	I'd found that re-saving an existing article would send incrementally more pingbacks, lolz	[21:48]
diana_coman:	you know, given the ~reliably 1 in 4, I do suspect it's a sort of rate-limited so each time it triggers, it may end up sending a few more, indeed	[21:48]
diana_coman:	but I never sunk the time to look properly into it.	[21:49]
jfw:	right	[21:49]
jfw:	just grepped the code for sql-based triggers, found none; possibly it 'polls' driven by who knows what	[21:51]
jfw:	though sql trigger wouldn't be able to do any external thing like parsing html and opening sockets anyway.	[21:53]
diana_coman:	ah, no, I expect it's a php-trigger, whatever it's called ;	[21:53]
diana_coman:	anyways, billymg will have fun with it, apparently	[21:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: how's your plan for next week?	[21:54]
jfw:	diana_coman: not sure. I liked the idea of taking proper break, but things are possibly warming up with JWRD next week so now might not be the time	[21:56]
jfw:	I'm finally thawing out the blogging today.	[21:57]
diana_coman:	if only everything was ready already from past week seeing how it supposedly was needed this week…then it would have been even the perfect moment to take a break, exactly to be refreshed for the new work	[21:58]
diana_coman:	that's pretty much the issue with all the spinning and mucking about and failing to cut cleanly one way or another, forever on the fence – in the end instead of getting the best of both /multiple options, it's ~always the worst of them all	[21:59]
jfw:	mhm. Come to think of it I could indeed wrap some things up and take a couple days	[22:00]
diana_coman:	enjoy!	[22:03]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/the-circle-of-fifths/ << whaack — The Circle of Fifths	[00:21]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-3-with-open-fingerings-for-daebf-and-c-minor-scales/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 3 – With Open Fingerings for d,a,e,b,f#, and c# Minor Scales	[04:49]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1026207 …or not; must've been well frozen.	[07:16]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-21 21:57:13 (#ossasepia) jfw: I'm finally thawing out the blogging today.	[07:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: you know, there is some truth in that – the longer you do not write, the harder it is to restart, indeed.	[10:10]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5212020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/21/2020	[10:22]
diana_coman:	for anyone interested in the raw logs and/or the historical dump of the old logger, I've added the raw logs and archives page; the archive for the active/currently logged chans will be updated at least daily and is plain-text ie doesn't force any specific dbms down anyone's throat; the old logger's dump is what it is – a postgres db dump including everything my old bot logged and …	[15:28]
diana_coman:	… everything I imported into its db.	[15:28]
diana_coman:	I do not plan to update the postgres dump; it's there for historical reasons and so it will stay as it is now.	[15:30]
diana_coman:	I've added the search widget too, seems to work sort of ok as an overall search; while I'm sure it could be made to work way better, I don't think I'll find time for that very soon.	[15:42]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-musical-frames-of-reference << The Tar Pit — On musical frames of reference	[16:30]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025653 – so hm, I can certainly nuke the pagination from archive queries but at least my method (hooking up a function to the parse_query action thing) turns out to also mess up the recent comments/article widgets despite supposedly applying the change only to queries that are archives; apparently the recent comments and recent articles are archives too and moreover, …	[18:19]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-04 20:44:10 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: do you know by any chance where is the page/nopage set for the archives? not sure why is this even so different than for the rest but I can't seem to properly & fully figure it out atm.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	… setting pagination to none also nukes the limit, huh	[18:19]
diana_coman:	I admit that I'm running out of patience with all the php ball in there.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	there probably is a more wordpress-friendly (as opposed to my rather unfriendly) method to do it.	[18:20]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-dire-signs-in-the-sky/ << Trilema — The dire signs in the sky	[18:52]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-4-relax-faster-with-notes-on-chord-progressions/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 4 – "Relax faster" With Notes on Chord Progressions	[06:13]
diana_coman:	!!up Joe65	[10:20]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia Joe65	[10:20]
deedbot:	Joe65 voiced for 30 minutes.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	hello Joe65	[10:21]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5222020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/22/2020	[10:23]
billymg:	diana_coman: this change plus setting 'posts_per_archive_page' to -1 in your options table should do the trick while keeping pagination working as-is on other pages	[15:59]
billymg:	diana_coman: that method, get_posts(), already has a check for the db option 'posts_per_page', and it has reference to a query param of 'posts_per_archive_page', but it didn't have a check for that option in the db	[16:00]
diana_coman:	billymg: hm, I'll try it; I did see the check in query.php but couldn't figure out why it wasn't enough, so let's see if this does it.	[16:01]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah, it seemed odd to me that they had it in mind already, with 'posts_per_archive_page', but were not checking that option in the db	[16:04]
diana_coman:	billymg: in the db though in the option table I can see the posts_per_page but…not the posts_per_archive_page ?	[16:04]
diana_coman:	a select distinct option_name doesn't list it at all, huh	[16:05]
billymg:	diana_coman: you'll have to insert it (which is normal afaik, options are inserted as they're set, rather than the full list of options being there with empty values)	[16:05]
diana_coman:	hm; I would have thought that has a value anyway, not like it's ever empty as such but let's see	[16:05]
diana_coman:	yaaay, works! thank you billymg !	[16:12]
diana_coman:	I still can't quite figure out why are then some options in db and some not (but still checked) and moreover why posts_per_page but ALSO nopaging (or what's the difference between nopaging vs posts_per_page=-1) but anyways	[16:13]
diana_coman:	clearly billymg's mpwp-fu is much higher than mine	[16:13]
billymg:	diana_coman: nice!	[16:14]
billymg:	diana_coman: i don't think there's any sense to be made of it really, your "ball of php" description is apt	[16:14]
diana_coman:	sadly that's quite likely indeed; but ah, so good to have this finally sorted and off the blog's to-do list.	[16:17]
billymg:	diana_coman, jfw: re: image upload for the multiple author scenario, i hadn't thought of that but i think in this round of cuts i will leave it in for that purpose	[16:18]
billymg:	mainly so i don't have to then maintain two forks while continuing to produce patches that would apply equally to both. so i'm thinking better to do the common work first, then fork	[16:24]
diana_coman:	makes sense to me	[16:25]
diana_coman:	bvt: it seems I managed to confuse v.sh & co. in the most unexpected way: I have a nice linear v-tree that I press to its last leaf; then I to a new vpatch on top of that (ie with a new version of the code base); the vpatch looks perfectly fine, it's some 430 lines too, not huge, there IS a manifest file that adds one line on top of the previous one (that is as expected corresponding to the previous leaf), all looks well; and then, …	[17:37]
diana_coman:	… if I try to press to this new last leaf, it fails with "Loop among vpatches" for those last 2 leaves – given that the manifest changes correctly, why /how is this possible?	[17:37]
diana_coman:	there's no output at all otherwise to give a hint more directly as to what it chokes on, but it's rather weird	[17:37]
diana_coman:	(sadly I can't quite pack the code itself as it's s.mg stuff and currently not public)	[17:38]
diana_coman:	huh, I think I actually now why – the newer vpatch reverses the changes in one file; bvt – did you intend it to claim that it's a loop if ONE file's changes are reversed by a vpatch? I guess it does raise the potentially ugly issue of manifest being a sort of "special" file since myeah, reversing that should not happen but the rest, hm.	[17:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: sounds like http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/adventures-in-the-forest-of-v/?b=IV.&e=#select	[19:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: indeed; and lol @ coarse error of pilotage; though possibly I'm "abusing" V since I actually use it for code control instead of saving it only for special occasions or something	[20:36]
diana_coman:	even using it with unfinished code, ugly code, whatever-code, omg.	[20:36]
diana_coman:	and yeah, comment gets one out of it – but the main issue was figuring out where the exact revert was	[20:40]
diana_coman:	anyway, today I need to go in ~5 minutes; I'll be back tomorrow.	[20:42]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/the-sarah-silverman-festival-of-rape-jokes/ << Bimbo Club — The Sarah Silverman festival of rape jokes.	[23:13]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/my-husband/ << Trilema — My husband…	[07:18]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5242020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/24/2020	[08:54]
bvt:	diana_coman: i have an experimental vpatch for that issue that i have written when there was a previous discussion about this. it's not 100% fix of the issue, but should be enough to solve most cases of it.	[15:06]
bvt:	i have uploaded it at http://bvt-trace.net/vpatches/vtools_vsh_fix_false_dependecies.vpatch http://bvt-trace.net/vpatches/vtools_vsh_fix_false_dependecies.vpatch.bvt.sig	[15:32]
bvt:	the idea is to 1. maintain refcounts for all the hunks in the vpatch which antecedents are currently determined. a candidate vpatch that matches the incoming hash increments the refcount for the hunk 2. don't exit the resolution loop when all the hunks are 'satisfied' (refcount >= 1) 3. after looping through all vpatches, check if there any any candidate antecedents, whose incremented refcounts are now all	[15:38]
bvt:	> 1; these antecedents are false/superfluous matches, and can be dropped.	[15:38]
bvt:	i will do the proper writeup sometime this week	[15:38]
diana_coman:	bvt: oh hey, that is quick! honestly, I am even still mulling over re what is exactly the correct approach there; the main trouble was one of confusing message since "loop" in my head meant full state rather than single-file-state (hence essentially made impossible by a properly updated manifest file, in itself); possibly at least a warning would be reasonable, but it might really make more sense to talk the matter through & give it …	[20:32]
diana_coman:	… some thought	[20:32]
diana_coman:	bvt: what's the cost of this change you've made, anyway? esp on large v-trees, does it make everything slower since now it has to go through all vpatches at all times?	[20:34]
diana_coman:	what I mean is: how much slower/how much of a problem and therefore is it the best approach? perhaps it's simply enough to give a clearer error message (e.g. which file is the trouble) and let operator sort it out; btw the press at least gave the message but iirc a vtree /antecedent command only did…nothing, silently, which is really confusing.	[20:37]
diana_coman:	hm, it turns out I have some irl unexpecteds to sort out today, apparently this weekend is not for that irc	[20:41]
billymg:	does anyone have handy the trilema piece about a business being about handling all the things that aren't seen/thought of?	[21:29]
billymg:	i think it might have been just a paragraph in a larger article, can't remember	[21:30]
billymg:	ah, nm, found it http://trilema.com/2019/the-business-and-the-fantasy/?b=a%20business&e=done#select	[21:34]
diana_coman:	billymg: it's not as much about all the things that aren't seen/thought of but rather a very hard "all the things" (hence, with the implicit "whether seen/though of or not, makes no difference, it's all or might as well be none"	[22:08]
billymg:	diana_coman: good point, and that's certainly how i understood it	[22:10]
trinque:	there's a misinterpretation possible that isn't mentioned, or I didn't see it in there.	[22:18]
trinque:	it's true that running a business means exhaustively mapping the territory in which it operates.	[22:19]
trinque:	it does not mean your capacity to deal with everything you've mapped is infinite.	[22:19]
trinque:	having the map allows you to decide which thing you're going to handle first, second, …	[22:20]
trinque:	mp mentions this elsewhere in re: having the girls order their communication thus.	[22:20]
diana_coman:	well, nothing is infinite anyway.	[22:21]
diana_coman:	nor is everything equally important as everything else, certainly	[22:21]
diana_coman:	Joe65: hello, what brings you here?	[22:21]
trinque:	true, yet hubris is common.	[22:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: heh, what set you so hardly against "hubris"?	[22:22]
trinque:	10 yrs in my own business plus however many in tmsr :)	[22:22]
diana_coman:	while I can see at least some angle to that however many in tmsr, I advance the possible thought that "hubris" might not be all there is to it; at times it might even have its usefulness!	[22:24]
trinque:	what'd a case of that be?	[22:28]
diana_coman:	generically like that – the short-burst overexertion that may be needed to overcome a block; to the extent that there is space and time afterwards to decompress and that short-lived intense burst was exactly what was required, it fits.	[22:31]
trinque:	hm, I don't disagree with that, so I suspect we have these symbols mapped differently.	[22:31]
diana_coman:	possibly; it does seem that keeping-in-the-very-real-with-all-its-limitations is a relatively difficult/rare achievement nowadays, I'll certainly grant that.	[22:34]
trinque:	hubris is when one ignores the gods, which is to say when he orders himself higher in the chain of causes than he is.	[22:34]
trinque:	yep	[22:34]
trinque:	incidentally jfw you mentioned that your business was heating up?	[22:36]
trinque:	curious what's going on there, congrats if so	[22:36]
diana_coman:	in my experience the correction tends to come very swiftly if/when someone gets that sort of "higher in the chain of causes" ideas but it's true that some people are better at ignoring corrections than others.	[22:37]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/dumb-bitches-giving-prostitution-a-bad-name/ << Trilema — Dumb bitches giving prostitution a bad name	[22:52]
Joe65:	Hello Diana	[00:08]
Joe65:	I was brought here by bingo boingo via qntra via trilema	[00:09]
Joe65:	Bingo Boingo said this channel had Bitcoin related comms and history, that's specifically what I am interested in	[00:09]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-6/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 6	[06:53]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/05/guitar-practice-log-5-pepe-romero-stretches-and-basic-shoulder-anatomy/ << whaack — Guitar Practice Log 5 – Pepe Romero Stretches and Basic Shoulder Anatomy	[06:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: a review by tonight was probably doomed at the point of not quite finishing things off before checking out on Thursday.	[07:03]
jfw:	anyway, had a nice day of clearing pine needles from gutters, sawing off boughs that were impinging on suspended cables or otherwise in the way, and a bit of relaxing.	[07:07]
jfw:	trinque: last I heard, we have verbal agreement to sign from two prospective clients – one for our beginner and intermediate training, and one for consulting on a new corporate IT deployment.	[07:10]
jfw:	hi _joerodgers, you might need to stick with the Joe65 name for now to stay voiced (if you stick around you'll need to get a GPG key registered). this is a learning place focused on practical & sustainable growth led by diana_coman; there are indeed people here interested in & knowlegeable about Bitcoin among other things, and quite a bit of history – first of all in the logs linked from the	[07:20]
jfw:	topic, and second from TMSR from which this started as a branch.	[07:20]
bvt:	diana_coman: i don't have specific numbers, i'd need to test it on something like mp-wp to get them. i did not get noticeable slowdown with linux kernel and vtools, but i did not measure anything, just checked how 'fast' it feels. that's something i intend to do for the writeup. tbh back in the day i barfed looking at the code already, so decided to can it until someone comes up with a real tree with this	[09:27]
bvt:	problem.	[09:27]
diana_coman:	bvt: heh, that barfed looking at the code already sounds to me measurement enough to give it some more thinking at the very least before pushing it as part of the main trunk; and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the main problem is for now one of better error message first of all rather than necessarily one of "should press it anyway"; I can still make the case for both options but I can also make the case …	[10:36]
diana_coman:	… against both options so I'd rather go for the smallest and least costly (from all povs) change tbh – can it spit the name of the file + vpatches involved instead of just shouting "loop"? and to mark this at vtree as well instead of just silently doing nothing?	[10:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: take up gardening! heh	[10:37]
diana_coman:	_joerodgers: as jfw said really, there's quite a lot to both logs and, especially, context to make sense of it all; it tends to help/work easier for you if you actively engage though so maybe come around to talk one day from 7pm UTC when I'm more usually around; if you don't have voice, just ask for it in pm (me or someone else who is voiced)	[10:41]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-25 07:20:47 (#ossasepia) jfw: hi _joerodgers, you might need to stick with the Joe65 name for now to stay voiced (if you stick around you'll need to get a GPG key registered). this is a learning place focused on practical & sustainable growth led by diana_coman; there are indeed people here interested in & knowlegeable about Bitcoin among other things, and quite a bit of history – first of all in the logs linked from the	[10:41]
diana_coman:	cruciform: how's the moving going?	[10:57]
diana_coman:	whaack: reports seem to work not-bad for guitar practice at least; are you sure you don't want to do anything else at all?	[11:00]
bvt:	if i liked that code, i would have just released the vpatch immediately with performance benchmark, so i agree with 'case against'. i will look into improving the error reporting code — this should be possible (with slightly more code in v.sh), though the precise loop analysis would take approximately the same amount of ada code as went into that experimental vpatch.	[11:15]
diana_coman:	bvt: so maybe not go directly for precise loop analysis then – what are the less-costly-but-still-better-error-message options there?	[11:58]
diana_coman:	I guess at a stretch, since the offending vpatches are identified, one will just script the "find the matching hashes", not like it's a big deal; only I'd rather not have it on the side, if it can be avoided	[11:59]
diana_coman:	joerodgers uhm, just leave it connected somewhere, it's not a problem.	[21:15]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia joerodgers	[21:19]
deedbot:	joerodgers voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	!!key joerodgers	[21:20]
deedbot:	Not registered.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: if you register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and you'll then be able to voice yourself.	[21:21]
joerodgers:	I will gladly do that, sorry for joining and exiting, just got an IRC client setup and channels saved. I will track down how to register with deedbot now	[21:22]
diana_coman:	!!help	[21:22]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[21:22]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: do you know what the WoT is?	[21:23]
joerodgers:	I see it is a trusted group of people from TMSR, but that assumption mightbe wrong	[21:23]
joerodgers:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7IWb	[21:24]
diana_coman:	heh, don't take words to mean what a first glance might suggest, it's generally not a very good strategy anyway; the canonical ref for the WoT is the article on trilema.com	[21:26]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/25/rmd-w27-29-review-may-4-24th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD w27-29 review, May 4-24th, 2020	[21:26]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: see deedbot's help page, you need to use that !!register command	[21:28]
joerodgers:	thank you, I am reading the docs now	[21:29]
diana_coman:	bots answer each to their own prefix, not just randomly to any text	[21:29]
jfw:	diana_coman: indeed I could even take up gardening now	[21:30]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/25/rmd-w30-plan-may-25-29th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD w30 plan, May 25-29th, 2020	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: so then – plan sorted: take up gardening!	[21:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: yo, welcome back but *slow down"! lolz	[21:32]
joerodgers:	!!register http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7IWb	[21:33]
deedbot:	A8A2746C266D1447AAD7A0B0B087C5F744EE8888 registered as joerodgers.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	congrats joerodgers	[21:33]
joerodgers:	thanks for the guidance	[21:35]
diana_coman:	no problem at all	[21:36]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks. where looks to you to be the best place for me to slow down ?	[21:36]
dorion:	joerodgers, welcome.	[21:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: lol, at writing, before publishing; that has got to be the shortest possible review of 2 weeks worth of time that I ever saw !	[21:39]
diana_coman:	but hm, now looking at it, wtf happened to the categories on yh	[21:39]
diana_coman:	this is a new one	[21:39]
diana_coman:	did anyone notice -when did the categories there vanish?	[21:40]
dorion:	diana_coman I noticed the change today, thought it was intentional.	[21:40]
diana_coman:	neah, I have to bring them back; only now I wonder just when did I manage to nuke them.	[21:41]
jfw:	I did not notice that as of my last (May 18)	[21:42]
diana_coman:	to make it even weirded, they are in the db, ugh.	[21:43]
dorion:	diana_coman I see what you mean now with slowing down, I'll add to it.	[21:46]
diana_coman:	billymg: do you know where exactly does the UI get the categories /what does it need other than the stuff in the db?	[21:48]
diana_coman:	really does not want to go about comparing the backups, ugh	[21:48]
jfw:	http://younghands.club/2020/01/13/jfw-review-week-of-jan-6-2020/#comment-283 – ref I was looking for on gardening: I'd just be missing out on the miserable weather now	[21:50]
diana_coman:	huh, what the issue was: apparently the UI relies on a temporary file to gather the list of categories to show; and the VM was low on disk space (unrelated – I ran some other stuff there) and so…this nuked the categories from showing…	[22:51]
diana_coman:	anyways, space is now plenty, should not run out of it again either, so categories are showing again all fine	[22:55]
diana_coman:	ftr, nothing was lost/wrong at any time in the db or anything – it was at all times a matter of display, but ugh.	[22:56]
billymg:	diana_coman: this is for categories on the public-facing www, or in the admin panel?	[23:09]
diana_coman:	billymg: both	[23:09]
diana_coman:	they were not showing anywhere, neither in the admin panel, nor in the contributor/writer (ie non-admin user) panel, nor on the www (all articles were shown as Uncategorized)	[23:10]
billymg:	diana_coman: what was the temp file called? or did you find where it's created/referenced (i wouldn't mind taking a look just for my own understanding of it)	[23:10]
diana_coman:	funnily enough (and the ~only clue I had that something funny was going on) was that the whole interface otherwise correctly named the default category in other places (eg where it warns that deleting a category does not delete the articles)	[23:11]
diana_coman:	billymg: I didn't dig that deep so unfortunately I can't help you there much; basically I checked everything in the db including that all had the correct parents etc; I checked that it was even as it had been before; then I noted that discrepancy; so looked around at what else could be the trouble	[23:12]
diana_coman:	at any rate, I think it's a lousy way this is done and I can't quite understand why would it be done differently than all the rest or wtf does it need now disk space for	[23:13]
billymg:	diana_coman: hrm, seems bizarre indeed	[23:14]
diana_coman:	it's true that I never managed to run out of space on a blog-running machine but then again, this is kind of a special-situation-machine by all measures.	[23:14]
billymg:	definitely seems strange that the lits would be written to a temp file and not just in memory	[23:16]
billymg:	list*	[23:16]
diana_coman:	has always had trouble with categories & wordpress	[23:17]
diana_coman:	I don't know why did they mess them up so much	[23:17]
billymg:	diana_coman: how was the ram utilization doing on the box?	[23:17]
diana_coman:	billymg: uhm, I didn't check specifically; there was though nothing special running at the time (the script that had gotten the drive full had finished anyway)	[23:18]
billymg:	needs to look closer at this in the code, but at the moment is focused on just ripping out all the js cruft	[23:18]
diana_coman:	billymg: no rush with this as such; it was a wtf-moment but admiteddly, out-of-disk-space is not an usual state anyway and generally gets sorted before it causes this sort of wtf.	[23:20]
diana_coman:	!!v 76F4168158928BD1BA9D369F55A353572E71255DA919C7B6AB7C848F1DAC367F	[23:20]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated joerodgers 1 << new to it all	[23:20]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: there you go; you should be able to voice yourself now, see deedbot's help page	[23:21]
billymg:	diana_coman: ok got it	[23:21]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/nuts-absolutely-fucking-nuts/ << Trilema — Nuts, absolutely fucking nuts.	[04:44]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5252020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/25/2020	[10:01]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/obituary << The Tar Pit — Obituary	[13:15]
diana_coman:	spyked: you know, I had just found out about Stanasila and then saw your article and thought it's too much coincidence not to be about him too; other than the course we had with him though, I could never quite figure out if/what he managed to build otherwise in that hole, to me he seemed rather one of the few exceptions to be grateful for.	[14:17]
spyked:	diana_coman, there's a small group there that teaches math properly… or it still was when I last looked. other than that, it depends how much patience you have to dig through academic journals, iirc he co-authored some stuff 3-5 years ago.	[14:27]
spyked:	well, I'm not sure that teaching is going to amount to much, it also requires willing students.	[14:27]
diana_coman:	spyked: ah, I'm sure research wise he had contributions and otherwise the well known textbooks/workbooks at the very least certainly stand for "built"; what I meant was specifically at UPB – maybe it was just my very limited understanding of the whole environment at the time but he was very little visible other than that 1 course.	[14:34]
spyked:	iirc he actually retired in 2008 or so, I think he was already old by then. but almost all of the people teaching analysis in UPB were his students; the ones who remain were his colleagues, lol (tbh, I'm surprised to hear Flondor is still teaching)	[14:48]
diana_coman:	ah, he certainly was already quite old when I met him, yes; that was though ~2002 so possibly not yet retired; re those teaching analysis/anything else there nowadays, I am not really up to date.	[14:51]
diana_coman:	not sure otherwise anyway what does "his students" mean in the sense that yes, there was that 1 course so I was his student too; for all my preference for the course, it was nevertheless a very, very small part of the Maths learnt in those years so not really sure if it's all that appropriate otherwise to claim "his student"	[14:53]
diana_coman:	(and I suppose ~all in the same year as me could by the above token claim they were his students, but uhm)	[14:55]
spyked:	diana_coman, people with whom he worked closely, taught them the trade, brought them up.	[15:38]
spyked:	or conversely, people who wanted to learn the stuff he taught. as opposed to people who were nominally "students", but weren't interested.	[15:40]
diana_coman:	the first would be the definition I normally agree with; and in this sense I wasn't his student; I'll believe you if you say (some of) those teaching now analysis there, have been.	[15:43]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/walks-among-the-quaint-quarantruins/ << Trilema — Walks among the quaint quarantruins	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: what's on the agenda for this week in the end?	[21:07]
jfw:	diana_coman: I was trying to work that out just now, but pretty much got to feeling down about the seeming futility of getting myself to follow a plan anyway.	[21:21]
jfw:	dunno what I have against gardening but it hasn't made it onto the draft yet.	[21:22]
jfw:	we did have the first lesson for a beginner training client yesterday, which was refreshing, I've got some things to tend to on that	[21:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: hm, better curious than down about something like that, it's not unchangeable nor without some causes; anyways, how about leaving the plans be for now and draw up instead the summary of the week/day to see what "plan" emerges out of the free-form	[21:28]
diana_coman:	tbh considering the trouble you seemed to have in cutting stuff out of the plan because "it should be there", I suspect at least some significant part of the "can't follow a plan" stems from that really – it's not that you can't follow a plan, it's more that you can't bring yourself to plan for what you'd follow rather than for what "should be"	[21:29]
diana_coman:	great to hear your beginner training client started, that's good news anyway.	[21:30]
jfw:	thanks, and yeah, could be!	[21:30]
jfw:	for summaries do you mean my choice of weekly or daily, or what?	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: ideally daily but literally take max 15 minutes to put it together (can even be as a comment at last article of yours or something) so at the end of the week it's there and therefore the "plan" whatever it was is clear enough; is that doable?	[21:32]
jfw:	("could be" I meant about planning for what I'd follow. I should remember by now that 'saving typing' by leaving out context doesn't really work out…)	[21:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: I got that, no worries there.	[21:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: yep that's doable.	[21:35]
diana_coman:	so please do it then, starting today with yesterday's summary so it's a full week by Friday and then there's something to have a look at.	[21:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: what's thawing blog-side?	[21:37]
jfw:	I will. On the blog, I'd started on writing up a fairly simple "eatblock" script for bitcoin, can possibly get that done today	[21:39]
diana_coman:	sounds good	[21:40]
diana_coman:	and then publishing that wallet?	[21:40]
diana_coman:	:P	[21:40]
jfw:	for sure :)	[21:40]
diana_coman:	to quote last October's words	[21:43]
sonofawitch:	2019-10-26 18:00:59 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: because you know, I can let you slide and take a whole month on one post; at that rate possibly we'll get to have a look at your software sometime before I die of old age or something.	[21:43]
jfw:	wallet reminds me, I need to redo some genesis patches to follow the project name subdir convention	[21:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: so what happens in cases like this (ie with this sort of reminder coming unexpectedly)?	[21:45]
diana_coman:	speaking of remembering stuff, hm; dorion any chance you'll still write that hunting article or what happened to it anyway?	[21:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: in this case I'd noticed earlier it needed doing, but hadn't mentioned it. Not sure what happens there in general.	[21:48]
diana_coman:	do you keep some sort of list and add it there? or make a note mentally (in principle; aka if it doesn't fade away, it might get done)? or do you drop whatever it was and do it? none of those?	[21:49]
jfw:	pretty much the make a note mentally I'd have to say.	[21:50]
diana_coman:	so either it's then basically taking up mental space or otherwise it's in the category ~"if it's truly important, I'll surely get annoyed with it enough to do it in the end!"	[21:52]
diana_coman:	it works, I know; not very efficiently, but it sort of works while there is enough slack otherwise, indeed.	[21:52]
jfw:	I've sometimes kept a todo list but it eventually ends up the list of things I wish I'd do but probably won't anyway…	[21:53]
diana_coman:	well yes, the list itself does not change the above; it goes the other way around ie only when you have (for whatever reason) enough of the above, only then the list (or other device/system) will come in handy too	[21:54]
diana_coman:	(this is not to say the change-genesis is now some very urgent or must-do-now thing, just in case it's not clear)	[21:55]
jfw:	you're saying the system comes in handy once there are more important/annoying things than fit in the mental space?	[21:56]
diana_coman:	the system comes in handy once the current efficiency level is not enough for yourself anymore; whether that's because there are more important/annoying things than fit your mental space or whether it's because the available time is less than the work you absolutely find you must do or whether it's for any other possible reason matters less	[21:59]
jfw:	makes sense, it changes once it has to	[22:01]
diana_coman:	pretty much; the part worth also saying in clear is that whether you push it towards some "has to" or quite push it at all times the opposite is your choice too.	[22:04]
jfw:	such as by choosing to take up responsibilities or not?	[22:06]
diana_coman:	come to think of it, there's something in there linking even to that older question re systematic curiosity, hm.	[22:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: such as that indeed; such as pushing towards or away from what seems unpleasant/uncomfortable	[22:09]
diana_coman:	linking it to what likes actually mean ie habit and existing adaptation, it's hopefully quite clear why the need to change is unlikely to come that much from what one likes, huh.	[22:12]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-13 21:57:02 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: so many likes are a matter of habit (and deeper than that – a matter of wider specific adaptation really) that it's not really all that hard to throw people off if you want to; part and parcel of having lived in many places though is getting to see just how much of what people claim otherwise as fixed and "the truth" and all that is in the end just a matter of context really.	[22:12]
diana_coman:	anyways, the tiny bit that started this thread quite went already longer than the genesis-change example itself has legs; so it can certainly take a rest.	[22:15]
jfw:	alright yeah, all seems to make sense but a bit abstract for me so far.	[22:16]
jfw:	possibly misparsed on log import? http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Sep-2019/#1001032	[22:47]
sonofawitch:	2019-09-02 19:14:01 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: will be back tomorrow\\x01	[22:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: looks like that, darn; thanks for pointing it out, it'll have to wait until I get to look at that again.	[22:51]
jfw:	np.	[22:51]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/05/27/jfw-daily-summaries-week-of-25-may-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW daily summaries, week of 25 May 2020	[10:37]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5272020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/27/2020	[09:41]
diana_coman:	!!up yrctest	[20:38]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[20:38]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia yrctest	[20:38]
deedbot:	yrctest voiced for 30 minutes.	[20:38]
yrctest:	waves at jfw	[20:39]
yrctest:	jfw yrc looks pretty neat, once the bit_length trouble was sorted; the lack of tab-completion though sucks.	[20:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: hey thanks for testing	[20:54]
jfw:	the tab completion is one among several noted sucks. maybe I'll give the whole thing another pass soon	[20:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: no worries; now I realised I should give it another go on 2.16 after the fix to that bit_length, huh	[20:55]
jfw:	weird that you got that error on 2.7.16; I'm running on a Debian 2.7.3 and otherwise tested on 2.7.13	[20:57]
jfw:	and I woulda thought bit_length would be some efficient internal thing, not "convert to binary string and count digits" lol	[20:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, not that I expected it was that but …such said the docs, why would I argue with them.	[20:59]
yrctest:	would you look at that, it works with python 2.6.6 too!	[21:02]
jfw:	oh I see, it's "equivalent to" that but the 2.7 implementation is indeed internal.	[21:02]
jfw:	nice!	[21:03]
diana_coman:	huh, I basically "backported an irc client, in one hour!!11"	[21:03]
diana_coman:	well, alternatively it may be called "messing about with python and irc for one hour" but anyways	[21:05]
jfw:	well seems to be messing about with a useful output at least.	[21:08]
diana_coman:	tsk	[21:09]
diana_coman:	jfw: ftr it was the neat layout of yrc that got me to look at that bit_length thing a bit more	[21:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: good to know. and no 'ncurses' involved either	[21:10]
jfw:	diana_coman: what was the 'tsk' to there – the devoicing?	[21:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: indeed, no (n)curses either; and yes, tsk was to deedbot	[21:12]
diana_coman:	I guess now I got yrc working even on 2.6.6, I'll just have to switch, huh	[21:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: unrelated – that "plan" took me all of 10 minutes to write down for you; what do you usually polish so much at a plan to take 0.8 hour and still not be done with it?	[21:15]
jfw:	tug-o-wars over 'I should do this, that and the other but am I really going to?'	[21:16]
diana_coman:	so ditch the "should" directly and see what happens?	[21:18]
diana_coman:	rather than forever wasting time on the hesitation to …admit it because in practice it's anyway what it is.	[21:19]
jfw:	right.	[21:20]
diana_coman:	wb joerodgers	[21:23]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia joerodgers	[21:25]
deedbot:	joerodgers voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:25]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: how was/is reading around here?	[21:27]
joerodgers:	I am still not sure how to get the most value out of this channel. As an outsider, It is quite intimidating.	[21:28]
joerodgers:	I desire more knowledge and personal development but I am not sure how to engage	[21:29]
diana_coman:	a bit like everywhere else meeting new people – talking helps best; what /why do you find interesting re bitcoin or what's your link to it?	[21:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: you do realise that if I switch, then in all likelihood, I'll whine and whine until you do get that tab-completion done, right?	[21:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: entirely.	[21:32]
diana_coman:	(and then if it works, I'll therefore have to hire an army of whiners to get jfw to do some work!!111)	[21:33]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: do you write anywhere on the web/do you have any website/blog?	[21:33]
joerodgers:	I am interested in the economic, political, and philosophical impact Bitcoin will bring to us	[21:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease… not sure it works if all the wheels are squeaky though	[21:35]
joerodgers:	I curate Bitcoin articles in a monthly journal	[21:35]
joerodgers:	I am trying to find my voice, but I have never been a profound writer. The website it here: https://bitcoinwords.github.io/	[21:35]
diana_coman:	re intimidating – I get it, but the only cure for that is simply to interact (and worry less about the outcome as such)	[21:36]
joerodgers:	Sure thing!	[21:36]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: why on github.io?	[21:36]
jfw:	github is a journal now!!	[21:36]
joerodgers:	It offers free hosting	[21:36]
joerodgers:	Yes, I have received plenty of "constructive" feedback on my choice of platform from our friends in asciilifeform	[21:37]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: heh, the way towards "a profound writer" is to look a bit more at what things like "free" mean in their context	[21:38]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: ahaha, mind giving me the gist of that feedback?	[21:38]
joerodgers:	I understand there are tradeoffs to my choince in putting a website on gh	[21:38]
joerodgers:	the gist… "why gh noob, fuck microsoft, git is not for that!"	[21:39]
joerodgers:	haha	[21:39]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: well, tradeoffs are there to ~everything; the question is more 1. why do you want to pour work into something that apparently can't ever even pay for own hosting 2. what does free in that context actually mean ie how exactly are you in fact paying for the service there since you do not pay for it with money (because pay for it you still do)	[21:40]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: lol, I see, the very constructive and helpful indeed.	[21:41]
joerodgers:	You are right, and I have justified my choice by lack of technical knowledge to self host. The project is highly portable and I have several backups. I am less interested in my choice of hosting provider and more interested in the impact of Bitcoin us all	[21:43]
diana_coman:	lack of knowledge is most easily fixed though.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: what does it mean "interested in the impact of bitcoin on us all"? I suppose the Bitcoin category on trilema.com provides ample discussion and commentary on that from a rather authoritative source	[21:45]
joerodgers:	I am still reading through the trilema archives. I found the summary on ossasepia.com and that was helpful.	[21:46]
joerodgers:	Specifically I am interested in how Bitcoin and sound money will change human behavior, I believe it will be for the better	[21:47]
diana_coman:	you know, leaving aside all the ??? I get visiting that bitcoinwords site (unicodes I suppose) and all the lol of x minutes to read and even a lot more else… what exactly makes those words there worth reading in the first place? it's really not a problem of too few words otherwise on bitcoin (or on anything else really)	[21:49]
diana_coman:	or how do you even perceive that "there's too little and in danger of being lost omg",huh	[21:49]
diana_coman:	if anything, ~everyone drowns in too much (and most of it rehash, just like e.g https://bitcoinwords.github.io/economics-has-lost-its-way – and it's really just one example picked at random, not specifically meant to single it out in anyway)	[21:50]
joerodgers:	I think there is a lot of noise out there. I am trying to build a high signal library for current and future Bitcoiners. I think (hope) Bitcoiners will find value to be able to open a journal in 5 years and see what we were talking about	[21:50]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: for the better..of what? heh	[21:50]
joerodgers:	Better overall. Low time preference has changed my life.	[21:51]
joerodgers:	I am more focused on health, family, personal development, and saving… plus many other things	[21:52]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: bitcoiners as in people-actually-involved-in-bitcoin would rather read the words of those past bitcoiners eg on their blogs, don't you think? I know there is this old model of "editor and curating" etc but uhm, that was also in a rather different context	[21:52]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: what is "low time preference"?	[21:52]
joerodgers:	I will answer you, I have a call with my team I must prepare for!	[21:53]
joerodgers:	brb	[21:53]
diana_coman:	ah, no worries; can wait until tomorrow too, not a problem at all.	[21:53]
jfw:	learns (indirectly) from https://bitcoinwords.github.io/101/ that the Nakamoto Institute guys fell out and rewrote their founding to include Cody Wilson rather than Daniel Krawisz	[21:54]
diana_coman:	ftr, I read 5 times by now this "If you find WORDS helpful, Bitcoin donations are unnecessary but appreciated." and I'm still in wonder at its twists.	[21:56]
diana_coman:	for balance-of-twisting, may I suggest it changes to "if you find WORDS unhelpful but appreciated, Bitoin donations are unnecessary but appreciated." ?	[21:56]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, it's ok, nobody reads it anyway	[21:57]
jfw:	hehe	[21:57]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: what's with the splitting of "paragraphs" by count of lines (3 lines each, apparently) rather than by meaning? It reminds me of those housewives bent on "tidying the bookcase" by sorting once and for all those pesky books by size, wtf does content matter!!	[22:01]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: oh, hey, is this illustration your work?	[22:05]
diana_coman:	jfw: here's further reason for why gardening is totally part of the plan: "itâ€™ll take a small team of engineers who quietly maintain the software like a constant gardener"	[22:07]
diana_coman:	huh, that "Links" thing reminds me of fain	[22:10]
diana_coman:	in principle, though I doubt in practice	[22:10]
diana_coman:	joerodgers: why not give directly the actual link of your blog? ftr it's at least way more readable than that words thing.	[22:13]
jfw:	diana_coman: gardends are made to last forever apparently? at least if they're not busy getting hacked all the time	[22:15]
diana_coman:	as to the "shorter time preference" (which is in there, too!), it's more of a must than a preference when all one has are leaves to pay with – either now or watch them be worthless tomorrow, sure.	[22:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: apparently! the weeds of hacking in thy garden!!	[22:16]
diana_coman:	anyways, I shall conclude here my opportunistic hike through the internetz at large as it's quite enough for one day, lol	[22:18]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow	[22:19]
jfw:	Anyone know of a decent sub-line-level diff tool? it's a wonder that I still don't have any other than …git	[22:54]
jfw:	last I checked I turned up only libraries and GUIs	[22:56]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/robocop/ << Trilema — Robocop	[23:39]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5282020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/28/2020	[09:22]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-ties-that-bind-the-ties-that-tie-generally-speaking-a-ties-a-tie/ << Trilema — The ties that bind, the ties that tie… generally speaking, a tie's a tie.	[17:42]
diana_coman:	hm, I am not aware of any decent sub-line diff tool, no.	[20:43]
whaack:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-05-25#1026321 Apologies for the late response, I was away from my terminal for a couple of days and then continued to leave it hanging. I would like to do something; it felt good seeing some improvement on my guitar playing from adding structure to my practices and I'd like to return to organizing (or at least attempting to) my time wisely on more	[01:52]
whaack:	productive tasks.	[01:52]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-05-25 06:25:17 diana_coman: whaack: reports seem to work not-bad for guitar practice at least; are you sure you don't want to do anything else at all?	[01:52]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/i-woke-today/ << Trilema — I woke today…	[18:39]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/essentially/ << Trilema — Essentially…	[18:39]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/work-report-5292020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 5/29/2020	[18:40]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/05/my-punishment/ << Bimbo Club — My punishment.	[18:40]
diana_coman:	whaack what is of most interest to you?	[21:03]
whaack:	diana_coman: I am not sure of the answer to that question, but a few things come to mind. First, I want to work on some project that replaces TheFleet – and I think that should be the currently-dormant "build an otc network" plan. A concrete goal would be to sell 1 btc by the end of the month. I am also interested in finding another source of income. A prospective business is escape-the-us-to-cr	[23:38]
whaack:	consulting. (A birdy told me that billymg was toying with this idea as well.) Apart from that, I'd like to continue my Spanish and guitar studies and return to writing more on my blog.	[23:38]

Comments (4)

May 2, 2020

New Skins for Fashionable Hopefuls

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 8:12 pm

Those past two days I finally got around to explore a few more directions I had in mind. My focus this time was on textures – mainly because it’s a faster way to see what various changes do to the result. Nevertheless, what I’m looking for otherwise is still focused more on the meshes – while the skeleton might be getting there, I think the mesh(es) still needs quite some improvement before there is more hope for the hopefuls. At any rate, I find I’d rather unload already the new stuff so read further for the list or scroll to the end for the pretty pictures, as usual.

The fun had yesterday and today yielded:

Cellular noise.I’ve finally implemented a new noise to play with alongside Perlin’s – it’s Worley’s and the main thing is that it’s quite on purpose “cellular” aka it’s based on linear combinations of the shortest n distances to a set of feature points that are probabilistically (Poisson) distributed in the 3D space. The main reason why I really wanted to see this in action is that a set of feature points – although possibly not Poisson distributed – might make perfect sense to consider when deforming shapes with the aim of getting something looking more like creatures. As usual, things are not all that clear to start with, mainly because there are so many ways to use each and every thing that at the end of the day ~anything is potentially possible – at least until one finally understands the whole thing enough to be able to figure out the reasons why it might not be possible! In any case, for starters I aimed to keep as close as possible to Worley’s original paper describing this cellular noise so I have an implementation that generates indeed -when used …plainly, let’s say- textures with “cells”. Scroll further down for the pics too.
Metallic, swirly, sparkly and other new textures. Trying out Worley’s noise plain was not half bad but trying it out with fractals turned interesting as I found out how easily it can all tend to …noise, heh. This had in turn the effect that I went back to playing with Perlin’s noise and multifractals and between the two, the result is that I’ve got what I can only describe as “metallic” textures, sparkly textures, swirly textures and ~any combination of those (swirly metallic texture being quite a thing for instance). By this stage I wish I could set some of those on fabric and start a fashion line as it would be way more interesting than many rags they fill the shops with. Come to think of it, it would be quite funny -although not all that surprising anymore- if Euloran characters end up better dressed than various “influencers” that are supposedly more than just a bunch of pixels on a screen.
Tweaked texture mapping. Another unexpected but productive side effect of this round of play is that I finally got thoroughly annoyed with that line/seam artefact that the stereo mapping of texture used so far always seems to create. And so I went and had another look at all my formulae there, with an eye to adjusting them so as to figure out if I can *also* have a version of it that eliminates that seam ¹. Like many other things, it turns out of course that all it takes is to know what to look for. Both coordinates use the arctan which returns results between -pi and pi, while the valid range for texture coordinates is between 0 and 1. So there is yet another place where options are available – and make a visible difference – depending on how this particular adjustment/mapping of intervals is made. At any rate, changing it to the more direct “just add pi and then divide all by 2*pi” turns out I’d say a better mapping in terms of how the full area of the texture gets shown on the mesh (though yes, if you want that seam, it’s not there anymore). One can further fiddle with it and keep the old adjustment for *one* of the coordinates while using the new for the other coordinate – yet another look and all that. Basically that’s the core trouble with looks – you can have so many of them for so little that it’s extremely easy to spend all the time just trying out nonsense in all its shapes and forms. At times even pretty nonsense, indeed.

As to the pretty pictures, there are some new textures and then a few screenshots to see them with the old and with the updated mapping as well. To start with, Worley’s noise is by definition quite “structured” and this shows immediately if simply plugged into the fractal brownian motion function as such. This is not to say that resulting images are not interesting of sorts – it’s simply that I think they end up rather tiresome on the eye and moreover, essentially too regular to serve that well as cover for any creature. In any case and for the memory of it if for nothing else, here are a few of them (some simple fractals, some multi-fractal giving them that layered look mainly):

Plain Worley’s noise without fractal messing about creates some cell structures as expected but that can be as simple as one big cell or as intricate as one desires – depending on the mapping of the original domain and otherwise on how the closest n distances are combined to give the final result. The textures that look “round” are by design exactly so – they use a stereographic mapping of the image’s own domain that is passed on to the Worley function, with the difference between the versions below being in how big (or small) the domain is considered. The ones with a tiny “centre” where everything happens can be quite useful if one wants to pop out some detail on a creature while simply colouring the rest to match but still remain more tame:

The additional exploration of multifractals using Perlin’s noise got this time all sorts, from sparkly texture to pronounced swirls – and I’ve specifically got a series of one set so that the effect of added detail is quite clearly visible (if one insists, after a point it all quite goes into noise/sparkle but most are really more noise than sparkle):

And here’s the fashion hopefuls-parade, experimental edition:

I’m saying a version of it because otherwise in some cases that seam might come in handy – it tends to create… noses perhaps, heh; at least a clearly separating midline that is not always such a bad thing.[↩]

Comments (7)

#eulora Logs for May 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:03 pm

feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/05/the-froth-of-our-days-september-13th-2014/ << The Whet — The Froth of Our Days: September 13th, 2014	[12:03]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/05/cold-knocks/ << The Whet — Cold Knocks	[05:51]
diana_coman:	!s help	[12:37]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[12:37]
diana_coman:	!s help `	[13:30]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[13:30]
diana_coman:	test crosscite	[13:33]
sonofawitch:	2020-05-18 21:44:55 (#ossasepia) billymg: diana_coman, jfw: yes, this will be a surgical snip, not a simple `find ./mp-wp/ -iname "*.js" \| xargs rm`	[13:33]

Comments (1)

April 30, 2020

Colourfully Symmetrical (of Sorts): 3rd Parade of Hopefuls

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 4:54 pm

This week’s work focused on the required additions regarding both skeleton generation and hopeful presentation: introducing symmetry (of sorts, given the collapsing of points otherwise) along one plane or along two perpendicular planes and then making the resulting hopefuls pose for the camera in 3 positions as well as trying on various skins. The result is that I had to leave it running during the night to generate all the screenshots for the first 50 skeleton seeds and the resulting pile of files is so huge that I’ll just link it for download so as to not force everyone loading the page to load them all. After all, it’s 50 skeleton seeds * 2 symmetry options (1 plane or both planes) * 3 poses * 11 textures, making 3300 screenshots and more than 1G total size to go through, just for this!

For future reference and for clarity otherwise, here’s what I implemented/changed this week to the whole orchestra:

Mirroring and collapsing of points: in the skeleton generation script, after obtaining the pseudo-random points both in the unit sphere and on its surface, I calculate the longest segment between 2 points and then the plane that contains that line as well as the origin (i.e. the centre of the unit sphere). While the original statement was a plane aligned parallel to the longest segment, some choice had to be made as to *which* plane exactly and the one going through the origin seems the most logical choice to me in this situation. At any rate, if it should be some *other* plane parallel to this, the equations are in the code and can be changed accordingly, not a huge deal. After this is done, all points are mirrored in this plane. If the 2nd plane is to be used as well, this 2nd plane is calculated to be perpendicular on the first and still containing that original longest segment. There was again a decision I had to make here as to *which* perpendicular plane – I considered that the idea was to use that original longest line as a sort of axis of symmetry, hence chose it as intersection of the two perpendicular planes. Once this 2nd plane is obtained, the *original* points (so NOT the ones already mirrored) are mirrored into this plane too ¹. Then the average distance between any 2 points is calculated. Working always with closest 2 points, the algorithm will collapse them – replacing the 2 points with only one point that is exactly in the middle between the 2 (on all 3 directions). This collapsing is repeated until either 2/3 of the points (as counted immediately after the mirrorings) were collapsed this way or no pair of points is found to have the distance below the original average. Note that the average is not updated after collapsing points (as per previous requirements) but the collapsing is taking into account when finding the next pair of points for collapsing (i.e. with smallest distance between them).
Centering the whole model in the originThe previous version of the skeleton generation script translated at the end the whole skeleton so that the resulting creature “stands on the ground” – meaning that the lowest y coordinate was guaranteed to be exactly 0. This helped when loading the model in Eulora’s client, since that’s roughly the client’s expectation ² but the client being what it is, it’s of course entirely NOT worth it to play by its rules AT ALL and AT ANY TIME. (I’m shouting here at my future self, maybe I finally remember this upfront so as to not even try anymore at all.) As I needed to rotate the models around x, y and z axes, I discovered that there is no way to do that around the *model’s own axes* so as to have it really just rotated but staying in place. The transformations that supposedly work to actually adjust the model’s own coordinates are called “hard transforms” in cs parlance but they turn out to be …not available for Cal3d models! And otherwise getting the transformation “from world coordinates to model coordinates” and piling there translation, rotation and back translation to achieve the same thing is an exercise in maximum frustration because there’s no reliable way to get the *exact* centre point of a loaded model (so as to translate it to make sure that it’s a rotation around that point basically as opposed to some ever-so-slightly off-centre point that will throw the rotated model all over the place). Having tried ~everything to make do with what the client offers on this, I got not only all the experience I never wanted with all the different ways to attempt this at the intersection between CS, Cal3d and PS but also additional insight into client’s idiotic behaviour. Basically the PS approach to “we required models on ground for convenience and this fucks rotations around anything other than y axis because it will go all over the place” is to “oh, it’s fine, we can therefore fuck also rotations – we won’t do any other than around y axis”. Moreover, I found out that when “looking at” something, the client as it is now ignores the y coordinate because otherwise it’s not made well enough to tilt the creature’s *head* as opposed to the whole body – so if the thing you are trying to look at is taller/higher up than your character, you end up looking at their feet or something, not at all at the point you thought you’d look at; if, on the other hand, you force the proper “look at”, your character gets tilted and basically can’t walk properly anymore. Those wonderful findings aside – and under a pile of assorted cussings – the sane solution is therefore to simply centre the model in its own origin *outside* of the bloody client and then let the client work with that, as it can. For the task at hand, this went then (finally!) as it should have gone from the start – quick and easy, rotations work as they should, the thing stays in place and given that its maximum size is anyway known to be 2 at most (remember that unit sphere), it’s enough to render the whole thing a bit higher off the ground and force that cally to stare exactly at it, tilted if she can’t in any other way. Obviously, this also meant bypassing all the PS cruft and using directly CS methods for ~everything involved.
Pose parameter for client – the smallest change to the client’s code that I could see so that I can show properly the hopeful in the desired poses was to add a command line parameter indicating the pose (by number). Based on that, the hopeful will then be rotated (or not) and shown at the same place. Basically this change was minimal and works perfectly fine for the purpose.
Updated overall script: since every hopeful is to be shown in several poses and wearing several textures, I updated the controlling script that runs the whole orchestra so that it has 2 additional loops to go through after generating each and every hopeful – the first loop iterates through the poses (so only 1 to 3 for now, but easily extended otherwise); the second loop goes through all available textures (assuming they are conveniently called tex_1.png and so on), copies the current one to where the client expects the “default texture” and then fires up the client to take the screenshot. Obviously, the names used for the screenshots now carry all this information too, to keep them reasonably ordered otherwise.

Other than the above changes, the rest of the time went more into struggling with the client’s various idiocies so it gets counted at “experience earned” rather than anything else. One thing that starts getting annoying too is that the client “saves resources” by refusing to render if its window looses focus – while this might be ok when playing the game, it starts getting on my nerves when just rendering hopefuls since it effectively means that the machine can’t be used for something else at the same time. At any rate, if it gets truly annoying, I’ll probably just hunt for that bit of “saving” and comment it out for now, but so far I didn’t spend the time on this. There are still the ideas and things I wanted to implement from last week but didn’t get around to – as I focused on adding the symmetry and then fighting with the uncooperative client.

As to the results themselves, here are first of all the 11 textures that each hopeful in this round tries on:

The full set of screenshots is available directly here with filenames including the seed used for the skeleton, the number of symmetry planes (1 or 2), the texture number (see above the set of textures, if you want to find some specific one) and the number of the pose (pose 1 is without any rotation so as generated; pose 2 is a rotation of 90 degress along x, y and z axes; pose 3 is a rotation of 135 degrees around x,y and z axes). All the hopefuls this time start with points in the sphere between 3 and 5, points on the surface between 5 and 13, so you can compare them with the previous run with those same parameters before introducing symmetry. Finally, here are a few shots shown here too, for those that simply want to load this page and not go otherwise through all the 3k+ pictures:

I interpreted it this way because of the collapsing of “between 1/3 and 2/3” of the points – basically the 2 mirrorings applied to the original points only triple the total so collapsing that many at the end makes some sense. Again, if it was something else specifically wanted here, it’s quite easy to adjust – if anything, it’s the rendering and screenshooting that takes significantly longer than any number fiddling.[↩]
Roughly, because otherwise and in the infuriatingly idiotic style known by now as PS signature approach, there is further a “leg length” defined for each “race” so as to adjust afterwards this on ground ever so here-and-there-just-to-make-something-to-do.[↩]

Comments (12)

#eulora Logs for 30 Apr 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:55 am

feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 30 Apr 2020	[00:55]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/eulora-logs-for-30-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 30 Apr 2020	[00:58]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/testderp/ << The Whet — testderp.	[20:22]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/audience/ << The Whet — Audience	[20:28]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/jabberwock-jaunt/ << The Whet — Jabberwock Jaunt	[20:36]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 30 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:52 am

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/29/dg-agenda-20200430/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.04.30	[00:52]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 30 Apr 2020	[00:55]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/eulora-logs-for-30-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 30 Apr 2020	[00:58]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/work-report-4292020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/29/2020	[07:24]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-double-decker-and-other-luxuriant-sexual-practices-from-the-jungle/ << Trilema — The double decker and other luxuriant sexual practices from the jungle.	[07:44]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/#1025501 <– sure thing. 'tis done	[08:23]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-29 21:31:29 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked: can I have feedbot stop announcing in #eulora the rss of my blog? atm there doesn't really seem much need for it there and it just triggers otherwise some "log" for the day that contains only the rss feed.	[08:23]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/#1025504 – well ordered, indeed, lol.	[09:28]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-29 21:50:28 (#ossasepia) jfw: ooh, setting up a render farm? factoring large integers? searching for terrestrial intelligence?	[09:28]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/botworks-x << The Tar Pit — Some thoughts on Feedbot, and a few more on IRC bots in general	[18:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/30/colourfully-symmetrical-of-sorts-3rd-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — Colourfully Symmetrical (of Sorts): 3rd Parade of Hopefuls	[18:58]
cruciform:	jfw, thanks for the link to the GAWK manual – really helpful! http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/#comment-679	[19:10]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/testderp/ << The Whet — testderp.	[20:22]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/audience/ << The Whet — Audience	[20:28]
feedbot:	http://thewhet.net/2020/04/jabberwock-jaunt/ << The Whet — Jabberwock Jaunt	[20:36]
diana_coman:	cruciform: those review questions were quite tailored for Robinson so maybe adjust as needed for you really.	[21:13]
diana_coman:	like everything else, they'll work better if they fit what you need, as opposed to "general fit" or what someone else needed at some point in time.	[21:14]
jfw:	yw cruciform, glad to hear it.	[21:15]
cruciform:	diana_coman, quite! I think they'll be helpful – even if only used for a day or two initially – in diagnosing derp http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Apr-2020#1024789	[21:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-20 16:43:32 diana_coman: cruciform: aham, "default" whatevers will rarely be what you actually need for …your specific situation; kind of the thing with "defaults" like with "average person" – it is an average but one that fits no actual, real person; anyways, there's the blockquote tag that does what you need there, so…use it;	[21:24]
cruciform:	btw, I tried to find out how to add a hyperlink to IRC text, eg. in http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Apr-2020#1024798 but couldn't find anything?	[21:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-20 16:48:38 jfw: cruciform: cool, and welcome to the lots of talk about commitments and reviews party!	[21:25]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what do you mean?	[21:26]
diana_coman:	it's a convention (former TMSR convention,at that): just use square brackets , put the link in first and the text in second, you're done	[21:27]
diana_coman:	bots that know about it will then render it as link in the respective page	[21:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, aha, thanks!	[21:27]
diana_coman:	cruciform: so are you reading the #o log or the …yh archives? lolz	[21:30]
diana_coman:	(not that it's anything wrong reading either; just a bit amused at the jumping about)	[21:30]
jfw:	cruciform: mnemonic for the ordering of the bracket notation: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-13#1935880	[21:33]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-09-13 mircea_popescu: same as for href = url, anchor.	[21:33]
diana_coman:	at which point cruciform may go and read the html manual too.	[21:34]
jfw:	there is one? lol	[21:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: awww, let the man search for it! (who knows what else he'll find!)	[21:38]
jfw:	ah, right, right. Ahem, yeah, I particularly enjoyed section 2 of the 3rd edition HTML manual.	[21:40]
cruciform:	the latter tends to lead to theformer	[22:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-30 16:53:01 diana_coman: cruciform: so are you reading the #o log or the …yh archives? lolz	[22:06]
cruciform:	jfw, diana_coman noted; now, to find that fortune amplifying manual…	[22:09]

Comments (0)

April 29, 2020

#eulora Logs for 29 Apr 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:39 am

feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 29 Apr 2020	[01:39]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/eulora-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 29 Apr 2020	[01:42]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 29 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:36 am

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/28/how-to-be-good-at-poker-annotated/ << Young Hands Club — How to be good at poker, Annotated	[01:36]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 29 Apr 2020	[01:39]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/29/eulora-logs-for-29-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 29 Apr 2020	[01:42]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/29/dg-agenda-20200429/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.04.29	[02:13]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-young-new-slavegirl/ << Trilema — The young new slavegirl	[07:05]
diana_coman:	that looks great, jfw !	[09:47]
diana_coman:	spyked: can I have feedbot stop announcing in #eulora the rss of my blog? atm there doesn't really seem much need for it there and it just triggers otherwise some "log" for the day that contains only the rss feed.	[21:31]
diana_coman:	as apparently everyone is busy otherwise, I shall go and give all computers something to be busy with as well; can then call it a truly satisfying day.	[21:44]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow.	[21:44]
jfw:	ooh, setting up a render farm? factoring large integers? searching for terrestrial intelligence?	[21:50]

Comments (0)

April 28, 2020

#eulora Logs for 28 Apr 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:47 am

feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/28/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 28 Apr 2020	[06:47]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/28/eulora-logs-for-28-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 28 Apr 2020	[06:50]

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#ossasepia Logs for 28 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:44 am

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/28/dg-agenda-20200428/ << Young Hands Club — DG Agenda 2020.04.28	[06:44]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/27/young-hands-and-new-plans/ << Young Hands Club — Young Hands and New Plans	[06:44]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/27/rmd-week-26-plan-apr-27th-may-1st-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 26 plan, Apr 27th-May 1st, 2020	[06:44]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/28/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 28 Apr 2020	[06:47]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/28/eulora-logs-for-28-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 28 Apr 2020	[06:50]
jfw:	trinque: I'm curious of your thoughts as V manifest spec author on this thread: http://blog.mod6.net/2020/02/three-trb-vpatches-for-testing/comment-page-1/#comment-51	[17:50]
jfw:	briefly, mod6's keccak conversion includes a separate line in the manifest as a historical note of the conversion that doesn't correspond to any actual patch	[17:52]
whaack:	diana_coman: i'm alive and kicking, but after the fainting episode I was unmotivated to do anything for a couple of days and then when I returned to normal health I put my effort into surfing and guitar while avoiding writing	[15:38]
diana_coman:	whaack: good to hear you're fine; why avoiding writing though?	[20:59]
jfw:	I'm in, evidently without article; working on finishing it up!!	[21:08]
whaack:	diana_coman: There's no good reason, maybe I haven't wanted to write since it felt forced – I didn't have anything pressing to write about. Now I want to get back to it, I have a stack of books of Shakespeare plays here so I'm thinking I'll go through them one by one and write up a short reflection on them. I also have the much delayed Poetics comparison article to do	[21:16]
diana_coman:	ponders changing the topic to "writing, deadlines and other unfathomable horrors."	[21:19]
diana_coman:	whaack: how's the otc network development going?	[21:19]
whaack:	diana_coman: it's non-existant atm.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	whaack: huh, so you are left with …what, jungle exploring? might still be at least interesting to write about, lol	[21:20]
diana_coman:	whaack: do you want to do any project at all?	[21:23]
diana_coman:	dorion: what does "one of the only" mean?	[21:25]
dorion:	diana_coman it means one of the few, but I see the awkwardness.	[21:31]
whaack:	diana_coman: I am contemplating the last question. Yes, I think so, and specifically building out an otc network, but I am concerned those are just words and that I'll back out when it comes to the work. The most productive activity that I really want to do is to study Spanish and read (in English.)	[21:31]
diana_coman:	whaack: uhm, why concerned as such? sounds rather …counterproductive, tbh.	[22:09]
diana_coman:	whaack: possibly start with small and manageable bits, basically working out your interest for more; there is the fact that you can't want what you don't yet know about and otherwise re backing out, fwiw from what I saw I'd say it's probably more running away from being stuck than backing out of work in general as such.	[22:32]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/build-system-overhaul-for-bitcoind/ << Fixpoint — Build system overhaul for bitcoind	[23:22]
trinque:	oh fuck yues.	[23:38]
trinque:	*yes	[23:38]
trinque:	congrats jfw; I will give this a try myself.	[23:40]
jfw:	cheers trinque!	[23:52]

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April 27, 2020

#eulora Logs for 27 Apr 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:11 am

feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 27 Apr 2020	[01:11]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/eulora-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 27 Apr 2020	[01:13]

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#ossasepia Logs for 27 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:08 am

trinque:	lemme see, cruciform stick around a minute so we can sort this.	[01:08]
trinque:	ah crap, just noticed the timestamps.	[01:09]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 27 Apr 2020	[01:11]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/eulora-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 27 Apr 2020	[01:13]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020#1025293 << noted, that makes sense	[02:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-26 16:27:55 diana_coman: anyways, to my mind the benefit would be in reaching out to new people rather than trying to convince anyone who has already made their mind to not use it.	[02:16]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/work-report-4232020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/23/2020	[03:05]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/work-report-4242020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/24/2020	[03:05]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/work-report-4252020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/25/2020	[03:05]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/probably-the-best-personal-blog-of-the-moment/ << Trilema — Probably the best personal blog of the moment	[03:17]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/27/jfw-plan-week-of-27-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 27 Apr 2020	[06:36]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/work-report-4262020/ << Bimbo Club — Work Report – 4/26/2020	[07:37]
diana_coman:	huh, nicoleci @ bimboclub can publish apparently even daily records, what weekly	[09:16]
diana_coman:	or uhm, was she only mocking poor feedbot so it reported one as three, lmao.	[09:23]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020#1025242 <– I'm grabbing them off http://logs.ossasepia.com/static/log_db.gz once in a while; are you planning to decommission ossabot?	[10:44]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-25 16:42:34 diana_coman: for that matter – hanbot , spyked , trinque , BingoBoingo – do you want dumps of the logs for your chans?	[10:44]
diana_coman:	spyked: yes, that's the full db dump (postgres), I had even forgotten about it; I guess you're right and whoever wants them can just grab that one with all and be up to date on their chan anyway.	[11:09]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: ^ the log_db.gz has it all, as spyked says.	[11:09]
diana_coman:	spyked: re ossabot – tbh I don't see the point for keeping it up at this juncture; I'll get around to make a script to update all the links from current loggers and with that, I can finally get rid of the flask with all it zugwerk and assorted shit; even if I consider redundancy, I'd much rather run another copy of sonofawitch on the logs server though atm it sounds like major overkill to me	[11:13]
diana_coman:	for a while I'll just let them be both in parallel merely to not keep that server idle until I decide what to do with it otherwise but dunno – do you see any specific case to keep ossabot up?	[11:14]
diana_coman:	dorion: ping me when you are around.	[11:16]
diana_coman:	any ossabot users – let me know if there's some other functionality/whatever you find useful and is currently missing from sonofawitch & blog-based setup.	[11:17]
diana_coman:	whaack: what happened to you in the end?	[11:30]
diana_coman:	jurov: as I understand it, you are currently the de facto owner of "bitcoin foundation", is that correct?	[11:31]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: how's the montevideo standard doing? are you still working on/with those scripts otherwise or is that of no use/interest for this new thing?	[11:33]
spyked:	diana_coman, tbh I haven't yet used the mpwp-based log frontend enough to stumble upon any missing functionality. I'll give it a try for a week or so, I'll let you know if I find something missing	[11:37]
spyked:	(and well, probably more than a week, given that this is going to be the main logger for #o)	[11:37]
diana_coman:	spyked: sounds good, thanks.	[11:41]
diana_coman:	as illustrated earlier, sonofawitch cites the lines too if you use the links from the blog	[11:42]
trinque:	diana_coman: voice model's params should be working as expected now. I'm around all day, so lmk if not.	[15:57]
trinque:	in other news, I tried raising ave1 on the comms a few times to avoid repeating work, to no avail.	[15:58]
trinque:	I've rewritten that gcc bootstrapper such that one can actually tell where the flags for the build are coming from. the thing was a heinous piece of shit (long before ave1 found it and patched)	[15:59]
trinque:	I've got the whole thing weighing in at less than 100loc, produces static gcc, gnat, binutils	[16:01]
trinque:	this is part of a larger bootstrapping project which builds a busybox+musl env which can rebuild the entire toolchain.	[16:02]
trinque:	rather, which can build an environment within which the toolchain can be reliably rebuilt	[16:04]
trinque:	I ought to have an item to share soon	[16:04]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/so-those-idiots-in-france/ << Trilema — So those idiots in France…	[16:30]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020/#1025309 – I've simplified a lot, I'll have a final draft to you in 24h.	[20:56]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-26 21:51:53 (#ossasepia) jfw: dorion: how's it going with the sales article revisions?	[20:56]
dorion:	hi diana_coman, I'm present.	[20:59]
diana_coman:	trinque: that sounds like a lot of work done really; hopefully digesting the output when/if you publish it won't give anyone indigestion or something; ave1 seemed to follow & respond here if/when there was some concrete problem raised but possibly too late now anyway?	[21:06]
diana_coman:	dorion: what's your plan re using those resources ?	[21:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-16 17:35:08 (#ossasepia) dorion: more charged when I consider what it cost me, but I'm ready to move forward and use the resources I sitll have.	[21:11]
dorion:	diana_coman, the first priority is to pick back up with the planning and reporting.	[21:14]
diana_coman:	well, if it's too much structure to maintain directly, work out something else that you can maintain and still provides some reliable way of interaction & communication otherwise	[21:18]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020/#1025347 – alright	[21:18]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-27 20:56:24 (#ossasepia) dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020/#1025309 – I've simplified a lot, I'll have a final draft to you in 24h.	[21:18]
diana_coman:	dorion: do you plan anything with your own blog?	[21:20]
dorion:	diana_coman it was these last few weeks, or at least I let it be too much.	[21:20]
dorion:	diana_coman yes, I plan to pick back up the writing.	[21:21]
jfw:	diana_coman: re the new logs, some features coming to mind are date forward/backward links, a stable URL for the live log for a given channel, and raw log access	[21:21]
diana_coman:	jfw: hm, for the first 2 I thought the category works well enough; not a big issue to add them otherwise if they really save that much trouble, huh	[21:23]
diana_coman:	raw log yes, can set up a db dump of the logs and link it, it's even somewhere on the list indeed	[21:24]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok then, guess I'll see that happening anyway.	[21:24]
jfw:	ah, category might be fine, I'll give that usage a try. Would just lose the browser back/forward chain through dates.	[21:25]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: With the lack of news I have had to cover I have been making a deep dive into the world of livestreaming these past few weeks trying to connect to the kids today.	[21:34]
BingoBoingo:	I do the news, but the absurdity of how little is happening in the world… it turns my news reporting into a deadpan act	[21:35]
BingoBoingo:	I'm still playing with the scripts, but I've had so little news to spread that I've been trying to make the most of it by putting myself on cam	[21:37]
BingoBoingo:	And trying to socially engineer an audience	[21:37]
BingoBoingo:	And learning the whole AV thing the hard way. Turns out concrete walls suck for microphone echo, so mitigating that is an ongoing battle	[21:38]
jfw:	ah, so http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020/#1025220 is from experience!	[21:39]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-25 06:42:19 (#ossasepia) BingoBoingo: Still, no video solution today is not shitty in profound ways. Zoom mostly just "works" for sad yet common values of works	[21:39]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: It is	[21:40]
BingoBoingo:	I have a blog post that's been baking, but as I learn more it keeps needing profound revisions	[21:41]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: it's a direction to explore I suppose; at least you learn about recordings and videos, after all.	[21:42]
BingoBoingo:	I've so far managed to socially engineer a very loyal if very small audience	[21:43]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: do they come to talk to you on irc otherwise? or adverse to it ?	[21:43]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: They seem averse to it. They are all prisoners of the walled garden world.	[21:44]
BingoBoingo:	I tell them I'm down here in Uruguay live from the free world, they tell me how bad it is in the zone	[21:45]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: how do you see this audience-to-be-built useful to you?	[21:45]
diana_coman:	uhm; that sounds so much like …idle chat at the gates, dunno	[21:45]
diana_coman:	maybe I'm just too harsh or something but I'd rather go and count the trees in the woods, for sure.	[21:46]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I see it as part of the ongoing war against Pantsuit. It does seem to devolve frequently into idle chat. I just keep hammering that down here in Best America, I am free. They in North America are not.	[21:46]
BingoBoingo:	I've done some streams from the great outdoors too.	[21:47]
BingoBoingo:	I don't expect much out of this except the fun I get from the trolling	[21:48]
BingoBoingo:	And the lessons in how to video. And the opportunity to expose myself and wade through the shit.	[21:48]
diana_coman:	well, I wish you all the best there; I have ample experience listening to people complaining about the same issues over and over and over (and over!) again for 20 years and even agreeing with all sorts of solutions and options and whatnots – still doing exactly 0.	[21:48]
BingoBoingo:	Thank you. It's just such a weird different thing that I'm still trying to probe where it could go if it isn't a deadend by design.	[21:51]
diana_coman:	nothing wrong with that, for sure.	[21:52]
BingoBoingo:	Anyways, the platform I've been using has a random "versus challenge" that pairs streamers up and puts them side by side. The bulk of what that turns up is naked dudes in bed waiting for a girl, but every now and then a redditor cries because they are triggered by my being outside.	[22:11]
diana_coman:	oh huh, on platform too	[22:11]
BingoBoingo:	I don't know of any sane streaming thing, so it's the sad situation where I'm wading through a walled garden full of shit	[22:12]
diana_coman:	hm, apparently my connection is acting up today	[22:30]
cruciform:	diana_coman, ah, so it's still today (not yet tonight), which means my publishing of http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020#1025303 still qualifies as on time!	[22:40]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-26 16:45:47 cruciform: diana_coman, I went from not-doing-a-lot-inside to not-doing-a-lot outside for the last few days; I'll have a post up by tomorrow eve http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020#1025296	[22:40]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, I'm still in the UK, yes! (logger's own server is not in the UK though, so it keeps its own time and todays/tomorrows, lolz)	[22:41]
cruciform:	trinque, I'm around for the next few hours http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-26#1025310	[22:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-26 20:30:54 trinque: lemme see, cruciform stick around a minute so we can sort this.	[22:42]
diana_coman:	ha, congrats to former and current YH members for making apparently cruciform finally get off his arse!	[22:52]
cruciform:	lol, next step – stay off it!	[22:56]
diana_coman:	cruciform: traditional implements for that come in all sorts of pointy and sharp shapes!	[22:57]
cruciform:	I knew my BDSM-y fears were legit!	[22:57]
diana_coman:	fears are always legit! what you do with them though is …flexible, lol	[22:58]
cruciform:	lol	[22:59]
cruciform:	aren't fears mostly spinning/psychogenic noise, most of the time?	[22:59]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, how would you tell "mostly this or not", anyway? the way I see it, they are …a signal; that's about it; usually it tends to be a signal of unknown rather than of anything else, true, but that's another thing anyway	[23:01]
cruciform:	diana_coman, good point re: how would one tell – I suppose the big problem with fears/anxiety is that they're difficult to self-diagnose, let alone self-treat	[23:03]
cruciform:	whereas a friend can be the voice of reason; tell you you're being stupid and they suddenly vanish	[23:03]
diana_coman:	cruciform: dunno about that, "treatment" can be as simple as …find a bigger fear, lol	[23:04]
cruciform:	diana_coman, see: I'd've never thought of that – problem solved!	[23:04]
diana_coman:	ha! if you say it does, I'll believe it worked for you. (and yeah, I saw people who can calm down – if only there's someone calm in charge, sure)	[23:05]
diana_coman:	cruciform: but you see, this is why I'm saying it's a signal – it's not random, no	[23:07]
diana_coman:	this doesn't mean it says what you expect/like/were used to think it can say, though.	[23:08]
trinque:	cruciform: hey, did voicing yourself work?	[23:09]
cruciform:	diana_coman, wrt finding a bigger fear, I've found that mechanism helpful in getting work done by making a concrete commitment: If I say I'll do something by a certain time, I fear more ruining my reputation by not delivering, than I â€œfearâ€ getting off arse and doing the work	[23:10]
cruciform:	trinque, I don't think so; do I need to lose voice before I can try self-upping?	[23:11]
diana_coman:	cruciform: heh, that's motivation by means of own pride; if it works, good enough; at some point you might finally develop immunity to "what others think" and so …better find better ways to motivate yourself by then.	[23:11]
diana_coman:	!!down #ossasepia cruciform	[23:11]
diana_coman:	there, problem solved, cruciform ! try !!up now	[23:12]
diana_coman:	trinque: cruciform says deedbot is still claiming he can't up himself	[23:13]
diana_coman:	cruciform restored to talk-mode by direct poking at ChanServ	[23:16]
cruciform:	diana_coman, if not pride, what's a better way to motivate self?	[23:16]
diana_coman:	heh – in a nutshell, own interest! seriously, the big difference there is external vs internal motivator	[23:17]
diana_coman:	the "what" is not all that important – the source is more important	[23:17]
cruciform:	diana_coman, so, "I should do x because it'll be good for me", rather than "good for my self-image" (as in the case of pride)?	[23:19]
diana_coman:	apparently cruciform turned out in the end a very citable article this time: "Now, it's pretty absurd that a 31 year old man can't stick to a weekly schedule" . I'll add to this – it is! Indeed, it is!!	[23:20]
diana_coman:	cruciform: eh, there's no should!	[23:20]
diana_coman:	"I will do x because I decided to do it!"	[23:20]
diana_coman:	and yeah, you get to define that decide – because it's good for you or because it's bad for you, entirely up to you; but ffs, decide and stick to it.	[23:21]
diana_coman:	can even be "because I can't stand NOT doing it!!!"	[23:21]
diana_coman:	perfectly valid and usually even works better	[23:22]
trinque:	hm, this is pretty weird. cruciform it rejected your up request?	[23:22]
diana_coman:	cruciform: try it again in here	[23:22]
trinque:	!!up #ossasepia trinque	[23:22]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=gk9o	[23:22]
cruciform:	!!up ossasepia cruciform	[23:23]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[23:23]
trinque:	!!v C2BE640EA53332C36C98D895D80916EBE36972DB711BE93BDEA94930244F6B96	[23:23]
deedbot:	You are now voiced in #ossasepia	[23:23]
cruciform:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[23:23]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=VpK4	[23:23]
trinque:	haha	[23:23]
cruciform:	the #	[23:23]
trinque:	hey, if we're at UX bugs, we're making progress	[23:23]
diana_coman:	ahaha	[23:23]
trinque:	lets make sure the confirm works	[23:23]
cruciform:	!!v E5EB00FBA8000C7D9E6CF7758777390D7EAFFA06BF4F038E91621BE7564033B6	[23:24]
deedbot:	You are now voiced in #ossasepia	[23:24]
diana_coman:	yay!	[23:24]
cruciform:	trinque, thanks	[23:24]
trinque:	hey np, glad it works.	[23:24]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020#1025350 << yeah, I ftr don't count ave1's work on the thing time wasted, but every time I went to build it I ran into some issue that was apparently only happening to me, w/e. when I went to try and fix the thing, I found it to be pointlessly complicated, not due to ave1, but the gregor guy that made it in the first place.	[23:31]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-27 16:28:56 diana_coman: trinque: that sounds like a lot of work done really; hopefully digesting the output when/if you publish it won't give anyone indigestion or something; ave1 seemed to follow & respond here if/when there was some concrete problem raised but possibly too late now anyway?	[23:31]
trinque:	so I finally said to hell with it all, and started chopping pieces out of it until I understood how each component was actually getting its inputs, and what each component took as directive to statically link.	[23:31]
trinque:	(and of course they all wanted different things: here's how you say it to gcc, here's how you say it to binutils, piles of bullshit more there)	[23:32]
diana_coman:	myeah, I can imagine	[23:33]
diana_coman:	in other logger testing, apparently cruciform's inverted quotation marks are not logger-approved, lol; I'll have to check that out.	[23:34]
cruciform:	diana_coman, so, motivation stems from a comitment to one'	[23:38]
cruciform:	s own will? http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/27/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Apr-2020#1025427	[23:38]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-27 18:43:07 diana_coman: "I will do x because I decided to do it!"	[23:38]
diana_coman:	cruciform: internal motivation stems from …internal own life in a word, yes; absent/insufficient that internal own life, the only alternative is indeed outside motivation; funnily enough, it's there that you are going bdsm if you look for the way to be strongly motivated from the outside, lol.	[23:42]
trinque:	also inside, potentially!	[23:44]
cruciform:	lol	[23:44]
jfw:	re funny quote marks, they look like utf-8 to me, and the ossasepia.com page proclaims utf-8 too, so… I'd guess some part of the pipeline is reading as bytes/latin1 then writing back as unicode	[23:47]
diana_coman:	myeah, most likely some unicode mess somewhere; I'll have the pleasure to dig to find out where.	[23:48]
diana_coman:	anyways, it might need to wait a while in the long queue of stuff to do.	[23:48]
jfw:	I'll be back tomorrow & with an article too.	[23:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: sounds good	[23:51]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow.	[23:52]

Comments (14)

April 26, 2020

A Day in April

Filed under: Lyf,Young, old and oldest — Diana Coman @ 2:15 pm

In those times of great soap-soaked suffering and toilet roll distress, when heroism is all about not doing and not living and not being even, if at all possible, the English sun shines merrily over the suddenly peaceful and lovely lands – I honestly like my surroundings all the better for this external calmness and for many people’s newfound wonderful habit of getting out of the way entirely. And since I promised to document the English sun at its otherwise unsung very best, here’s the record of a day this April – the year is 2020, a virus is king ¹ and the new rule of the world seems to be that life is to be preserved indoors and otherwise only occasionally let outdoors in those 2m wide bubbles that may even walk -but not interact- past one another ².

One fine morning, the outrageous marinade of armenian-russian-ukrainian origins was made and set aside for the minimum 8 hours that are required to transform the most banal of pork into the highest grade shashlik-style meat that vanishes at quite astonishing speed from the plates of anyone that has ever tasted it. Seen from above, it all looks a bit like this:

While the marinade was doing its job silently, we went out. As I recently got for my youngest cycling companion a new bike that is bigger than he is, we went first to give it a spin in a deserted parking place – going round and round an old tree in the middle allowed for best practice with turning at ever tighter angles:

Delighted laughter proved everything was perfectly fine and rider as well as bike were all ready to explore further afield. So off we went, through the green and among the trees and flowers, stopping here and there simply to take a picture or just look at it all, unhurried and undisturbed by anyone else at all:

When we decided it was time to get back home, we took the route through the woods and then past the old church where I knew the trees to be still in blossom, gloriously lining the street with their pink loveliness that nevertheless fades and falls down, all of it happening within the short time of only 2 weeks of every spring:

Back at home, the cold home-made lemonade was taken out and set within easy reach – so easy in fact that I almost didn’t get the time to take a picture of the jug before it dried out – for all those in dire need of non-alcoholic drinks; oranges got even closer at hand and cards were brought out too, for a few games with proper score keeping and fierce competition:

And someone else started a tiny fire with proper chunks of wood that soon gave out their lovely smell as they gradually turned to embers:

While the cards were played, the lemonade was sipped and the fire was kept alive, I went about taking pictures – of the trees and of the grass and of the lilac that is same and still not-same, as it always happens:

After a while, the meat was taken out too and set all ready for getting to know gentle heat that cooks without drying:

There was of course a lot more after the meat was ready and the wine brought and the merry made – but by that time I had forgotten about the camera and nobody else remembered it either so there’s again no picture I have of all that. So I’ll leave it at that and end instead with a picture-proof that the golden hour exists in England too and that even coffee – with almond thins of Belgian recipe – can still be had!

King Covid – it has a ring about it too, doesn’t it?[↩]
There is some variety around the world, I’m told – in Romania for instance, it’s now mandatory to wear a face mask at all times in public spaces; by contrast, in Belarus, people apparently took the initiative to self-isolate and self-distance because the authorities couldn’t be bothered to order anyone to do such thing.[↩]

Comments (6)

#eulora Logs for 26 Apr 2020

Filed under: #eulora_irc,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:53 am

diana_coman:	!s h	[11:31]
diana_coman:	!s help	[11:31]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[11:31]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 26 Apr 2020	[11:39]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/eulora-logs-for-26-apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 26 Apr 2020	[11:55]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/a-day-in-april/ << Ossa Sepia — A Day in April	[16:16]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 26 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:38 am

diana_coman:	!o uptime	[11:08]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 22d 20h 48m	[11:08]
diana_coman:	!s help	[11:16]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[11:16]
diana_coman:	!o uptime	[11:34]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 22d 21h 14m	[11:34]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 26 Apr 2020	[11:40]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/eulora-logs-for-26-apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #eulora Logs for 26 Apr 2020	[11:55]
diana_coman:	in advantages of publishing the logs like any other text on blog… backlinks ; might even make for more motivation to finally get to the bottom of missing trackbacks otherwise.	[11:58]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/a-day-in-april/ << Ossa Sepia — A Day in April	[16:17]
billymg:	!!ratings	[17:43]
deedbot:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=co2w	[17:43]
billymg:	^ finally got around to that bit of housekeeping	[17:44]
billymg:	thank you to everyone who responded to my mp-wp survey, it cleared up a lot in my head about the desired direction for the project	[17:55]
billymg:	i'll publish my interpretation of the results soon, but even reading the raw responses i think should be interesting to anyone who uses mp-wp	[17:57]
diana_coman:	billymg: fwiw, after doing all the scripts to import logs and to get real-time logging into mpwp and all that, I realised that in the process I pretty much got also ~all I'd need to not even look at the web-based interface anymore	[18:12]
diana_coman:	sure, there'd be a bit more work to make stuff like comment moderation more convenient but otherwise it kind of boggles the mind why exactly did I put up with the web-based login for so long.	[18:14]
diana_coman:	(well: because I never took the time to really look at it; in turn, because there were bigger fires & more annoying things to sort out etc; as it always goes)	[18:15]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah, one of the big takeaways for me is that JS can be removed entirely sooner than i had previously thought (the "libraries" of which are a big portion of the overall weight of the codebase)	[18:17]
diana_coman:	ah, that for sure.	[18:18]
diana_coman:	billymg: I'm curious though what you make of it given that from what I saw, the answers from non-mpwp users were ~all mainly "shall never use it on ideological grounds"	[18:22]
diana_coman:	maybe I should say even religious grounds by now, lol.	[18:26]
billymg:	diana_coman: my read from the non-mpwp users was not quite as pessimistic. two of the three responses seemed to indicate that if the codebase was trimmed enough and a CLI introduced they would not be opposed to running it	[18:27]
diana_coman:	I think you are very optimistic but I'll be very happy to be proved wrong in this as well as above.	[18:28]
diana_coman:	shall be back later at the usual 7pm utc	[18:29]
billymg:	diana_coman: haha, it's the optimism that motivates. it also doesn't hurt that despite perhaps being in different ideological camps, both users and non-users alike have similar goals — e.g. 1) run something with as small a footprint as possible that 2) doesn't require too much hassle and 3) allows for cli/script interaction to fit more efficiently into their preferred workflow	[18:35]
billymg:	diana_coman: i think you might be right about users already invested in another solution though. even if mp-wp becomes palatable to them there are switching costs. but getting to the point where, hypothetically, if they were starting fresh again mp-wp would be their first choice, would still be a win	[18:43]
billymg:	bbl, breakfast is ready	[18:44]
lobbes:	diana_comam: I have a massive log and blog debt to catch up on. Seems work on mpwp keeps moving forward and I'm still interested in lending a hand with any irc-to-blog work. The mp-wp-bot I was working on does indeed to real-time logging to mp-wp. I'll be spending today and early next week on getting back up to speed on things.	[20:50]
lobbes:	speaking of, auctionbot is MIA I see; I will fix	[20:50]
diana_coman:	oh hey, wb lobbes	[20:58]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia LizTurner	[20:58]
deedbot:	LizTurner voiced for 30 minutes.	[20:58]
diana_coman:	LizTurner: hello	[20:58]
diana_coman:	lobbes: what happened to you this almost full April, anyway?	[20:59]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020/#1025280 – this would be about the most generous interpretation indeed; to me there's a stark contrast between those answers and e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020/#1024027	[21:03]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-26 18:35:29 (#ossasepia) billymg: diana_coman: haha, it's the optimism that motivates. it also doesn't hurt that despite perhaps being in different ideological camps, both users and non-users alike have similar goals — e.g. 1) run something with as small a footprint as possible that 2) doesn't require too much hassle and 3) allows for cli/script interaction to fit more efficiently into their preferred workflow	[21:03]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-09 16:14:08 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: ie make the trunk of mpwp so that I'm 2x more productive using it than whatever entrenched habits I might have, and I'll change the darned habits already	[21:03]
diana_coman:	anyways, to my mind the benefit would be in reaching out to new people rather than trying to convince anyone who has already made their mind to not use it.	[21:05]
diana_coman:	huh, those join-and-leave, not even spewing out some spam, boggles the mind	[21:07]
diana_coman:	it's like children's games – ring at the door and run away sort of thing?	[21:07]
diana_coman:	cruciform: how's the Knuth & logs diet going for you?	[21:10]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-22 16:58:06 (#ossasepia) cruciform: I've had enough Knuth for a bit, so gonna work on reading the logs; writing an article on "What is YH?"	[21:10]
cruciform:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[21:21]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[21:21]
diana_coman:	trinque: ^ what's wrong there ?	[21:22]
diana_coman:	hm, I thought voice params were changed already.	[21:23]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-18 18:15:44 (#ossasepia) trinque: diana_coman: sitting down to another round of deedbot tweaking now, will make sure the voice params are also changed.	[21:23]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I went from not-doing-a-lot-inside to not-doing-a-lot outside for the last few days; I'll have a post up by tomorrow eve http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/ossasepia-logs-for-26-apr-2020#1025296	[21:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-26 16:32:27 diana_coman: cruciform: how's the Knuth & logs diet going for you?	[21:23]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-22 16:58:06 (#ossasepia) cruciform: I've had enough Knuth for a bit, so gonna work on reading the logs; writing an article on "What is YH?"	[21:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform: ahaha, at least a change of …scenery!	[21:24]
cruciform:	speaking of, enjoyed http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/26/a-day-in-april/	[21:25]
diana_coman:	cruciform: oh hey, glad to hear it!	[21:25]
jfw:	dorion: how's it going with the sales article revisions?	[21:51]

Comments (1)

April 25, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for 25 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:14 am

BingoBoingo:	The zoom fad seems a bit flavor of the month and a bit, so bad everyone knows it needs a dedicated septic box for hygeine purposes	[06:41]
BingoBoingo:	Still, no video solution today is not shitty in profound ways. Zoom mostly just "works" for sad yet common values of works	[06:42]
diana_coman:	lol, what did you to to ChanServ, lobbes?	[11:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: it turns out that non-breaking the words in the table is even worse (at least with current theme) as it overflows at times horribly; so probably I will have to get around to change that theme too, sigh.	[11:52]
diana_coman:	!o uptime	[11:52]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 21d 21h 32m	[11:52]
diana_coman:	!s help	[11:52]
sonofawitch:	!s is my prefix for commands: hi, help	[11:52]
diana_coman:	hm, feedbot why u so slow	[12:16]
diana_coman:	anwyays, experimental sonofawitch & orchestra are on with logs hopefully updated on ossasepia.com in real time (e.g. today's http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020/ )	[12:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 25 Apr 2020	[12:17]
diana_coman:	testing citing capabilities	[18:27]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-25 12:17:00 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: anwyays, experimental sonofawitch & orchestra are on with logs hopefully updated on ossasepia.com in real time (e.g. today's http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020/ )	[18:27]
diana_coman:	pats sonofawitch	[18:27]
diana_coman:	logs of #eulora are getting published on my blog too, they'll gradually appear in the #eulora_irc category; there won't be any flood of the rss feed as I've set the script to publish them with date matching the logged day rather than with current date.	[20:56]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/25/ossasepia-logs-for-25-apr-2020/#1025222 – browsers, huh.	[21:11]
sonofawitch:	2020-04-25 11:52:22 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: it turns out that non-breaking the words in the table is even worse (at least with current theme) as it overflows at times horribly; so probably I will have to get around to change that theme too, sigh.	[21:11]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm seeing class="breakup" applied to only the first two table rows on today's	[21:12]
diana_coman:	looks	[21:12]
jfw:	real time update working otherwise though, very nice!	[21:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: right you are, apparently in all the updates that bit fell through; I'll get it in at next restart and then fix today's article, shouldn't be much trouble anyway.	[21:17]
diana_coman:	btw, if anyone has preferences/ideas re what sort of search they'd find useful (eg !s s something-or-other), now's the time to speak about it	[21:18]
diana_coman:	ftr, I've imported all the logs I have otherwise so nothing is lost ; I'm not sure I'll publish all as articles though, but the data is there and the bot can search through any of the chans that were logged.	[21:19]
diana_coman:	for that matter – hanbot , spyked , trinque , BingoBoingo – do you want dumps of the logs for your chans?	[21:20]
diana_coman:	let's see if that took care of it.	[21:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: is the plan for next week any trouble/stuck?	[21:36]
jfw:	diana_coman: actually I can't seem to focus on much of anything today. Maybe the weather's too nice	[21:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: so then go and fully enjoy the day, at least get that 200% in	[21:39]
jfw:	diana_coman: I shall.	[21:40]
diana_coman:	have fun!	[21:41]
jfw:	ty.	[21:41]
diana_coman:	testing cross-chan citation, in my 2015 vintage doubts re how much I can do for eulora, lolz.	[21:54]
sonofawitch:	2015-06-09 06:10:22 (#eulora) diana_coman: I will try to look into it, but not sure how much I can do	[21:54]
diana_coman:	cool; will be back laters.	[21:56]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Sure, thank you.	[22:42]

Comments (0)

April 24, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for 24 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:10 pm

diana_coman:	jfw: v.pl does have its quirks and a relatively too-silent/uninformative fail mode, indeed.	[04:51]
diana_coman:	yay, welcome back feedbot !	[04:51]
diana_coman:	spyked: what are you up to those days?	[04:51]
spyked:	diana_coman: juggling the torrent of work coming from saeculum, mostly. also reading and fiddling with feedbot's innards… was just installing some instrumentation in ircbot to figure out how to gracefully handle socket failures	[07:04]
diana_coman:	spyked: huh, still or even worse torrent of work? kind of interesting how this goes with "everything-but-not-quite stopped" otherwise,	[07:34]
spyked:	it's a tad better than last month, but still pouring in. latest events caused a change in priorities, so the number of people in the project went down and so on, and so the torrent inevitably propagated	[07:38]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/24/mirroring-the-vtools-v-tree/ << Ossa Sepia — Mirroring the Vtools V-tree	[12:44]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/24/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 23 Apr 2020	[16:24]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/24/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Apr-2020/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 24 Apr 2020	[16:33]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/suburra/ << Trilema — Suburra	[16:48]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/24/jfw-review-week-of-20-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 20 Apr 2020	[18:01]
jfw:	waves	[18:01]
jfw:	diana_coman: as I see you've maintained it from the blog-log style on trilema, what's the reason behind that character-level wrapping? Am I the only one who finds it a bit… jarring?	[18:05]
jfw:	maybe blame it on English for having whitespace delimiters significant to decoding/phonetics, but, they are	[18:08]
jfw:	recalls Tom Lehrer, "And you may have thought it tragic / Not to mention other adjec / tives to think of all the weeping they will do!"	[18:09]
jfw:	hm,ypiensoqueenespanollosespaciossonimportantestambien,peronose,quizaspuedaaclimatarseconunapocapractica	[18:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: I couldn't find a solution that is not-jarring; it's also a matter of reader's screen /display so not even something I can actually fully control from my side really.	[18:24]
jfw:	I haven't minded the full-width logs, but doesn't work with a narrow fixed-width blog style I guess	[18:25]
diana_coman:	lettuce experiment anyway, 1 min	[18:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: spot the diff & does it look any better?	[18:29]
jfw:	it no longer wraps within words but the justified alignment makes for some big gaps	[18:29]
diana_coman:	that's jarring number 2, indeed	[18:30]
diana_coman:	hence my earlier "couldn't find a solution that is not-jarring"; just different versions of jarring	[18:30]
jfw:	how about giving it more width to work with by having the timestamps inline or hover-only and less or no hanging indent?	[18:31]
diana_coman:	do you mean text under the speaker's name?	[18:32]
diana_coman:	atm it's tabled so it's easy to follow who said what	[18:32]
jfw:	yeah looked like a table	[18:32]
diana_coman:	the timestamps could go perhaps on the name indeed, that wouldn't be a problem	[18:33]
diana_coman:	but anyway, moving the timestamps away would expand the line a bit, not terribly much	[18:35]
diana_coman:	possibly a bit better anyway; and moreover the timestamps as such are rather meaningless anyway	[18:36]
diana_coman:	come to think of it – if someone comes in with a nickname awijpetiojp3etj3ptojoq3jtpq3otj3potjqp3otjqp3otjqp3otjq3topj3t3qtpoj3qo3tj , the poor table is fully fucked	[18:37]
diana_coman:	though I think freenode has a limit on nickname length	[18:37]
jfw:	probably but yeah.	[18:38]
jfw:	well, looks great in 'links' at least, since that doesn't do the fixed-width css, heh	[18:38]
diana_coman:	that's the spirit!	[18:38]
diana_coman:	tbh my own theme used to have \% which I find way more reasonable since it doesn't restrict user's screen to whatever number of pixels; but myeah, the themes coming with mpwp were what they were and never quite sunk the time to fully port it; (I don't like css/html that much either)	[18:44]
jfw:	I was going to say 'dillo' looked good too, but no, it makes a mess of normal articles. CSS seems to be an all-or-nothing thing.	[18:45]
diana_coman:	possibly by the end of this it'll annoy me enough to change the theme too, can be.	[18:49]
jfw:	you want to really get annoyed, check the older articles with code like http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/01/eucrypt-chapter-8-bit-level-keccak-sponge/	[18:51]
diana_coman:	gah	[18:52]
diana_coman:	it looks like something I'd need to go systematically through if it's to get sorted; iirc there were some wild pics too.	[18:55]
diana_coman:	ahaha, what's with the zoom-fad all over the world	[18:55]
jfw:	skype not cool enough anymore apparently?	[18:56]
diana_coman:	eh, skype has been uncool for several years at least for sure; but what I can't get my head around is why just…one; it's like fashion-dream, dunno	[18:57]
diana_coman:	and initially I thought maybe it was just …local, uk-madness; but apparently not so truly…pandemic, I guess; the zoom-infection.	[18:57]
jfw:	viral marketing!	[18:58]
diana_coman:	by next year it will be forgotten too (and rediscovered with a different name, to restart with the problems etc, ofc)	[18:58]
jfw:	just by the time someone will have cooked up a half-working open sores client	[18:59]
diana_coman:	by now it's probably enough a quarter-working, it evolved!	[19:00]
diana_coman:	tbf probably it looks/works great by comparison to facebook or similar.	[19:01]
jfw:	worked fine in my testing, and might help that it's a paid thing	[19:03]
diana_coman:	oh, is it? I'm quite sure I saw some free version, maybe it was limited.	[19:04]
diana_coman:	admits she didn't really want to see much of it at all.	[19:05]
jfw:	what I saw was free to join meetings but needs an account to host them	[19:09]
diana_coman:	I half-expect the child's school will discover the greatness of zoom any time soon, so I'll find out all about it.	[19:10]
jfw:	quite possible.	[19:11]
diana_coman:	jfw: takeaways look good to me (even biting the insurance!!)	[19:14]
jfw:	thanks	[19:14]
diana_coman:	just hm, maybe do push the writing back into some …working gear?	[19:14]
jfw:	yeah and preferably not reverse.	[19:15]
diana_coman:	ahaha, indeed!	[19:15]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[19:18]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 23 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:00 pm

jfw:	billymg: good catch, guess I shoulda studied the original addition when doing the snipping. Not sure why it wouldn't press, pretty sure I tested too but will have a look. You did put my key in .wot?	[16:43]
jfw:	billymg: starting from a fresh dir and importing the patches/seals from the set on my blog, I got "flow" to work, but at first I missed adding diana_coman's key to .wot which was necessary for mp-wp_comments_filtering.vpatch.	[16:51]
diana_coman:	billymg: what error did it give/how did it fail?	[16:51]
jfw:	(v.pl unhelpfully denied that the descendent patch file even existed when asking it for antecedents in that state; the manifest change revealed it)	[16:53]
billymg:	jfw: yes, i imported your key	[21:56]
billymg:	diana_coman: it's a "not found in flow" error	[21:56]
billymg:	i am able to press diana_coman's mp-wp_comments_filtering patch	[21:57]
billymg:	jfw: ah, damn. that's what i missed. i imported your key but didn't place in .wot — one sec…	[22:02]
billymg:	ok, yeah, presses fine. user error	[22:04]
jfw:	billymg: cool. Not sure I like the silent failure behavior there, but I could see an argument for it: vtron's job is to pick the good from a sea of bad; that bad patches exist isn't interesting	[22:46]
jfw:	seems there should at least be a verbose or debug option though.	[22:47]

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Mirroring the Vtools V-tree

Filed under: Coding,V — Diana Coman @ 3:20 pm

Since at least December 2017, I’ve been using for all my code publishing and versioning needs the original implemention of V by mod6 that I even packed and published as a starter kit to help newcomers get over the initial bootstrapping issue – also known as “where to start from with this new V thing!!” The reason for my faithfulness to mod6’s old implementation is simply that it’s an implementation that has been discussed in quite some detail and has been greatly iterated upon, back when TMSR’s own public forum worked quite as intended. Nevertheless, as bvt has been dilligently working on owning and improving the vtools suite, clearly communicating on it and on his own history of V use that informs his choices of implementation, I find myself alternating between the two – while the old v.pl still has its niche for quick deployments on environments lacking GNAT for instance, the increasingly polished vtools is growing on me as a more convenient set of tools in my production environment (where GNAT exists already anyway).

As bvt has been nicely introducing on his own blog each new vpatch through an article of its own, I have been following the code and reading and re-reading his vpatches quite easily. But as it turns out that I haven’t yet mirrored the vtools V-tree nor published any of my sigs on its vpatches so far, I’ll correct now this oversight and publish them all in one go – at least it should make it even easier to find it all here, I suppose. Moreover, since I took the time to read through all the vpatches again from genesis to the current leaf, I got curious regarding size of vpatches and corresponding net changes to the code too – after all, the vtools V-tree is currently one of the few examples of more advanced use of V: it started with what is effectively a “clean, extract and capture” (by phf) of the diffing utility; it successfuly translated parts from another existing V-tree (e.g. my Keccak implementation from the EuCrypt tree, including further updates and improvements to it, as they became available); it was built upon initially by the original author but then by someone else (bvt) who took over quite smoothly and all for the better really; it received changes and updates that were properly published and discussed as well as otherwise informed by direct feedback and actual use. I guess I could even go on adding to this list but as striking as this might be, it seems to me that the list as it is already makes this vtools V-tree quite unique – not even trb’s V-tree can boast having all the above really, as far as I’m aware (and yes, I think it’s very unfortunate it can’t – perhaps it will and hopefully even sooner rather than later, as it’s already quite late indeed, as it is).

All the above out of the way, head over to my Reference Code Shelf for my sigs and my mirror of the full VTools V-tree and otherwise here’s a tiny bit of data on vtools’ code and changes, in chart and table format, for all preferences:

No.	VPatch	Length of VPatch (lines)	LOC (vtools) after pressing	Net LOC change
1	vtools_genesis.vpatch	5551	5443	+5443
2	vdiff_fixes_newline_gcc.vpatch	94	5444	+1
3	keccak.vpatch	421	5851	+411
4	vdiff_keccak.vpatch	423	6078	+227
5	vtools_fixes_bitrate_char_array.vpatch	107	6101	+23
6	vtools_vpatch.vpatch	847	6770	+669
7	vtools_fixes_static_tohex.vpatch	47	6771	+1
8	vtools_vpatch_newline.vpatch	384	6946	+175
9	vtools_ksum.vpatch	92	7023	+77
10	vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp.vpatch	160	7083	+60
11	vdiff_blockwise_read-2.vpatch ¹	49	7094	+11
12	vtools_fixes_rootdir_files.vpatch	65	7091	-3
13	vtools_small_fixes.vpatch	39	7090	-1
14	vtools_add_vsh.vpatch	274	7353	+263
15	vtools_add_vsh_utils.vpatch	625	7925	+572
16	vtools_vsh_utils_one_binary.vpatch	743	7772	-153
17	vtools_vsh_ada_vfilter.vpatch	1415	7830	+58
18	vtools_vsh_shellcheck.vpatch	149	7830	+0
19	vtools_vsh_ascii_visualization.vpatch	274	7869	+39
20	vtools_vsh_ascii_fix2.vpatch	190	7903	+34
21	vtools_vsh_orphans.vpatch	238	7955	+52
22	vtools_update_keccak.vpatch	881	8087	+132
23	vtools_vsh_fix_awk.vpatch	26	8088	+1

Overall, reading all vpatches makes for a respectable 13094 lines or otherwise a 523 pages booklet at the standard 25 lines per page. If one read instead only the result of the full press to the final current leaf, that would mean ~8100 lines so about 320 pages instead. Note however that the apparent “gain” might come at a higher cost than you think because reading the vpatches as they are has the advantage of getting to know the code more gradually and therefore having perhaps an easier time at understanding the whole thing (as well as the reasons for it being as it is).

Looking at net changes, the genesis is in this case huge compared to the rest – the reason being that it’s a capture of an existing utility. There are otherwise a few clearly longer patches, but they don’t always result in a similarly big net change (e.g. vtools_vsh_ada_vfilter.vpatch is 1415 lines itself but since it replaces rather than just adds code, the net change is only +58 lines). Nevertheless, there are precious few patches resulting in a net code reduction – and even then, the net change is quite small. Arguably this can mean of course that the code is already at a very good balance between brevity and clarity. Alternatively, it might simply suggest that unless one aims specifically to reduce the codebase, the chances of this happening naturally are very slim indeed and so the codebase will just keep growing for as long as it keeps changing.

On a different note and looking at the overall length of this “booklet” of code and the total number of 23 vpatches, I kind of wonder as well at which point – or under what circumstances – would it truly be preferable (or even feasible) to regrind and gain clarity (hopefully while reducing the code base too) rather than lose it as natural part of losing at least some of the history of all the changes. Supposedly it’s something to find out naturally when such a situation occurs – if ever.

From here on, bvt takes over from phf.[↩]

Comments (3)

April 23, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for 22 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 4:34 pm

feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-peaks-of-the-day/ << Trilema — The peaks of the day	[10:41]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/silvery-flesh-on-twisting-bones-2nd-parade-of-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — Silvery Flesh on Twisting Bones: 2nd Parade of Hopefuls	[13:37]
diana_coman:	cruciform: don't use that old selection mechanism with # as it's not working properly – what gets selected (if anything) depends on the browser (+it requires javascript anyway…); there's a better way, as described here: http://trilema.com/2019/proper-html-linking-the-crisis-the-solution-the-resolution-conclusion/	[16:33]
cruciform:	diana_coman, will do, thanks	[16:34]
diana_coman:	anyways, average people tend to be bad at ~everything,not only poker, lol	[16:37]
diana_coman:	so if you only ever do the "run to be better than them", it's not much effort probably, no	[16:37]
diana_coman:	nor much running, whatever the running might be about.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	as eulora's motd insists: your worst enemy always slept in the same bed as you.	[16:38]
jfw:	the JS selector reminds me, billymg: I signed the two patches that seemed settled, in http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/ ; are they suitable for you as is?	[16:39]
jfw:	(for further context, that means the first two from http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/selection-and-other-sundries-for-mp-wp/ )	[16:40]
cruciform:	diana_coman, kinda crazy that half of people are even worse than average! And yea, poker very much allowed me to just be good-enough; not have to grow	[16:46]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, that's if you credit a gauss curve to start with; can get even worse otherwise, heh	[16:47]
cruciform:	reckon competence is pareto?	[16:47]
diana_coman:	I'd be rather hard pressed to find evident it isn't; but I admit I haven't really bothered much to fit a curve to anything	[16:48]
cruciform:	it certainly holds for poker winnings: a few players make almost all the money	[16:48]
diana_coman:	sure, in school grades at any exam will follow gauss (unless cheating) but competence is a different thing	[16:48]
diana_coman:	evidence* not evident	[16:48]
diana_coman:	rather as expected re the few players, indeed.	[16:49]
cruciform:	yea, I was trying to find a term other than "IQ", since I gather that's bullshit	[16:49]
diana_coman:	cruciform: you know, MP is right re that article being for sure the better ref (and possibly of more interest to you too).	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: how's the health insurance quest going?	[16:52]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what's next on your list now that the 2 articles are done and published?	[16:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: you know just what to ask about that wouldn't have been started yet!	[16:53]
diana_coman:	true, I do :P	[16:54]
jfw:	so no, not started yet.	[16:54]
diana_coman:	needs a new battery to start ?	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: you know, it's…Wednesday, lolz.	[16:55]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I've mostly got my head round mathematical induction today – I never got the "assume n=k is true" bit (the… induction, lol): "can't just assume things in maths!"; didn't get that it's about proving that IF n=k holds, k+1 does, too	[16:56]
jfw:	so it is. Maybe just some corrosion to clean off the contacts.	[16:56]
diana_coman:	cruciform: aha, that's the point, proving the first step and then basically the fact that it's a chain	[16:57]
cruciform:	I've had enough Knuth for a bit, so gonna work on reading the logs; writing an article on "What is YH?"	[16:58]
diana_coman:	"2 letters!"	[16:58]
cruciform:	lol	[16:58]
diana_coman:	anyways, sounds like a reasonably balanced…diet; can even add the cheese twists then!	[16:59]
diana_coman:	(and no, nothing bad with cheese twists in general, except ahem, taste one day some freshly made ones with sourdough too and then see if those M&S ones are all that great anymore, that was all)	[16:59]
cruciform:	inb8 Google Translate http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Apr-2020#1025016	[17:00]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-22 16:51:02 diana_coman: cruciform: you know, MP is right re that article being for sure the better ref (and possibly of more interest to you too).	[17:00]
diana_coman:	well, can always add "learn a language" to the list, why not	[17:00]
diana_coman:	maybe I should do the Romanian Thursdays, huh	[17:00]
diana_coman:	one different language every day and that will surely take care of all and any conversation, too!	[17:01]
cruciform:	diana_coman, in other unfinished derping, I did… TWO Greek lessons with my dad before giving up	[17:02]
diana_coman:	well, as I don't know your dad, I can't evaluate in any way what two lessons mean in that context	[17:02]
diana_coman:	cruciform: why did you do them to start with?	[17:03]
cruciform:	I wanted to cure my ESL-ness, decided I could spend time with my dad too by learning Latin/Greek; chose Greek coz it's harder :p	[17:04]
diana_coman:	eh, with languages it gets easier after the 10th or so (as I've been helpfully told when I was a kid – but it's true!)	[17:05]
cruciform:	got to conjugating my first verb (Î»Ï…Î¿ Ï„Î±Ï‚ Ï€ÎµÎ´Î±Ïƒ), and… that was a wrap	[17:06]
diana_coman:	according to MP though it's women you want to spend time with to learn languages not own dad; maybe that's why it lasted for only 2 lessons, lol	[17:06]
cruciform:	Aha, I can recall reading that in the logs!	[17:06]
diana_coman:	there I can't advise, but otherwise from practical experience the way to learn a language is to need it as in not have any other choice of being understood/understanding anything; works wonders!	[17:08]
cruciform:	diana_coman, guess I should move to Ancient Greece!	[17:08]
diana_coman:	cruciform: wouldn't that be good, too!	[17:09]
diana_coman:	but could have just asked dad to not reply in/to anything other than that; and then see how it goes, lol.	[17:10]
cruciform:	provided it's not Athens, I guess http://trilema.com/2018/democracy-sucks-the-two-thousand-four-hundred-and-change-years-old-version/	[17:10]
diana_coman:	well, choose your year carefully; and everything else you get to choose, for that matter, I suppose.	[17:11]
cruciform:	diana_coman, still wouldn't solve the him-not-being-a-cute-female-tutor problem	[17:11]
diana_coman:	can't solve it all, indeed	[17:11]
cruciform:	I'm a little hesitant to pop http://trilema.com/2012/cum-devii-un-jucator-de-poker-bun/ into Google Translate	[17:12]
diana_coman:	yeah, unlikely to help much	[17:13]
diana_coman:	so let it itch, what	[17:13]
cruciform:	Not sure how helpful it'd be to find a Romanian to translate it; would probably produce some lolz equity, at any rate	[17:17]
diana_coman:	it's one of the most straightforward articles on trilema actually ; so it might work but provided you find not-an-idiot, what can I say.	[17:19]
cruciform:	diana_coman, that's the problem – I know quite a few Romanian gamblers; not-idiot is the tricky part	[17:21]
diana_coman:	heh, as always	[17:21]
cruciform:	Hang on, I've read this before! http://trilema.com/2015/how-to-be-good-at-poker/	[17:26]
cruciform:	I meant to annotate it ages ago, but never got round to it	[17:27]
diana_coman:	ahaha, so it is actually translated already, cool	[17:29]
diana_coman:	might as well reply then to the comment and add the link	[17:29]
cruciform:	diana_coman, on it! also glad that I don't have to talk to any Romanian gamblers!	[17:29]
diana_coman:	ahaha, are they any worse than generic not-good-gamblers?	[17:30]
diana_coman:	(genuinely curious, not a loaded question)	[17:30]
cruciform:	they're renowned for being particularly miserable, ornery and nitty	[17:31]
diana_coman:	sounds quite believable	[17:31]
cruciform:	In fact, I've only EVER seen them smile when someone they don't like is losing (not when they're winning, even)	[17:31]
diana_coman:	it has a name!!! it's called "sa moara capra vecinului" (may the neighbour's goat die!)	[17:32]
diana_coman:	there is a whole set of layers to that, it's not by accident	[17:32]
cruciform:	would you mind explaining the idiom?	[17:33]
diana_coman:	cruciform: sure; but where to start from so it makes sense to you, hm; do you know how rural communities work esp re figuring out one's own worth ?	[17:36]
cruciform:	diana_coman, how much livestock one owns?	[17:37]
diana_coman:	no, not at all	[17:37]
diana_coman:	huh, look, for the short version I did already even say it on…trilema, lolz, here: http://trilema.com/2019/derpy-sluttyev-or-how-shall-i-call-this/#comment-130373	[17:38]
cruciform:	ah, so it's "no one else is doing better than I, so I'm great"?	[17:39]
diana_coman:	re rural community though – it's basically through direct and continuous comparison of visible assets; in Ro the main part used to be land (because agriculture) but otherwise everything about the others' house, so yeah, nobody has taller/bigger house than mine/happier and bigger goat than mine, hence I'm …the greatest	[17:40]
diana_coman:	not even "great", it doesn't exist as such, it's about the greatest	[17:40]
diana_coman:	and sure, easier to kill the neighbour's goat than to get your own (at least from some perspective)	[17:40]
diana_coman:	cruciform: but you can link it back to "being better than the average player", see?	[17:41]
cruciform:	diana_coman, still here; chewing through it	[17:44]
diana_coman:	basically in a proper rural community, there is a very visible and easily measured hierarchy anyway; and the least capable ones that get bitter will tend to go this way – since they can't (or internalised that they can't) get ahead, then focus on keeping the others behind (so that they can get ahead, sort of thing)	[17:45]
cruciform:	diana_coman, sounds very socialist	[17:46]
diana_coman:	ahaha, how is that?	[17:46]
cruciform:	well, given that humans are guassian AT LEAST, those that can't want to lower the bar; bring those that can down to their level/pretend equality	[17:47]
diana_coman:	cruciform: how do you link that to socialism though?	[17:47]
diana_coman:	no, it's not pretend to equality	[17:47]
diana_coman:	it's very much hierarchy and getting ahead, nothing to do with equality; they are not aiming to be equal to the neighbour, not at all	[17:48]
cruciform:	I can't have a goat like my neighbour does; I'll kill his and we can be equal	[17:48]
diana_coman:	neah; they want the neighbour to fail and the more he fails, the better, it's about being better than the neighbour, not equal	[17:49]
diana_coman:	and even more/deeper in the end – about the fact that if the neighbour fails, then own fail is vindicated aka "see, I told you you'd fail"	[17:50]
diana_coman:	it's the lazy/incompetent's form of "cut-throat competition" really: he'll win by holding everyone back.	[17:51]
cruciform:	isn't that similar to the socialist mindset? lowering the bar so everyone can "compete"?	[17:51]
diana_coman:	or whatever, insecure I suppose, in a more generous light	[17:51]
diana_coman:	cruciform: you are mixing there bits and pieces; this whole rural stuff comes from way before socialism/communism	[17:52]
cruciform:	diana_coman, yea; it's been a long day – induction has worn out my powers of deduction	[17:53]
diana_coman:	sure, there is easily an added strata there because in socialism/communism the "getting ahead" in the party hierachy tends to work more on those lines than on competence, but it's another thing	[17:53]
diana_coman:	ahaha; it's also not the sort of proof-by-induction problem !	[17:54]
cruciform:	well, unless one ties all his neighbour's goats together and pushes the first one off the mountain	[17:55]
diana_coman:	funnily enough, despite the idiom, it's more often cows and sheep rather than goats that people used to have, but anyways	[17:55]
diana_coman:	also, you see, the whole satisfaction is in the neighbour's fail, preferably without a (visible) helping hand	[17:56]
diana_coman:	eh, the intricacies of petty bitterness	[17:56]
diana_coman:	not worth all that much thinking of it really	[17:56]
cruciform:	it's been very instructive, thanks!	[17:57]
diana_coman:	np	[17:57]
diana_coman:	cruciform: out of curiosity, what age group are those goat-haters you know?	[17:57]
cruciform:	I've never asked 'em, and their dour countenance might make 'em look older, but I'd guess 31-45	[17:58]
cruciform:	no very young or very old	[17:59]
cruciform:	(there are loads of young Romanian staff at casinos, though)	[17:59]
diana_coman:	huh, I expected even younger (not very old because they wouldn't be there, yeah); possibly they had to take the time to accumulate that bitterness and get convinced enough they can't do anything other than the goat-hating, perhaps.	[18:00]
cruciform:	I'd imagine young Romanians wouldn't have had time to build up capital to gamble with?	[18:00]
diana_coman:	I have sudden trouble imagining "Romanians" and "building capital" in the same sentence, lol	[18:01]
cruciform:	though, I'm not sure Romania is particularly poorer than anywhere else in Europe	[18:01]
diana_coman:	perhaps; I don't really know about the gambling world.	[18:01]
diana_coman:	well, those you find here are certainly not the poorest, not even by far	[18:02]
diana_coman:	anyways, they gloriously keep alive the goat-hating tradition, what can I say.	[18:03]
cruciform:	well, given that the two I'm most familiar with are MP and yourself, that's true!	[18:03]
diana_coman:	ahaha, you just said you knew loads of Romanians around the casinos, what	[18:03]
cruciform:	I know their faces; not much more – they tend to hang out exclusively with each other	[18:04]
diana_coman:	but no, seriously – no idea if you know for reals what dirt-poor means, but …it exists; it's true that it's not the sort of sordid inner-city-poverty (mainly because of no city) but still.	[18:05]
diana_coman:	sure, it exists in other parts of Europe too, there is that	[18:06]
cruciform:	I saw something like it in Serbia – people living in an abondoned… hospital, I think it was?	[18:06]
diana_coman:	(and probably it'll grow, too)	[18:06]
cruciform:	I'm really curious to see just how fucked the economy is over the next year or so	[18:08]
diana_coman:	the thing is – getting on a plane already requires some resources ; even if they may be borrowed – having who to borrow them from is a resource too and so on.	[18:08]
diana_coman:	cruciform: ahaha; your curiosity shall be fully satisfied, I'm quite sure; but do mind what you wish for!	[18:08]
cruciform:	lol, true!	[18:09]
cruciform:	I'd imagine things like gambling will take quite a hit?	[18:09]
diana_coman:	re gambling I have no idea really (as I said, it's a world I don't know much about so can't really comment on it either)	[18:10]
diana_coman:	and I'd say it's not gambling per se that will take any hit – it's possibly though what you know as gambling aka those specific casinos	[18:10]
diana_coman:	like with everything else	[18:11]
cruciform:	Poker buddies are worried about their uninsured deposits at said casinos, right now	[18:11]
diana_coman:	usually the times of trouble simply show what was just pretense (which falls) and what not (which stands, though it might not be in the open, sure)	[18:13]
diana_coman:	eh, and the insurance will do what? lol	[18:13]
cruciform:	well, here's to standing!	[18:14]
diana_coman:	cheers!	[18:14]
diana_coman:	anyways, I'll call it a day too, good night	[18:14]
cruciform:	and wrt insurance, methinks this is a big can o' worms	[18:14]
cruciform:	aha, gn!	[18:14]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/afacerea-protar/ << Trilema — Afacerea Protar	[21:02]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Apr-2020#1025005 << jfw, yup, looks good. one minor thing for the patch removing js selection: the wrapper <span> tags in page.php and single.php can be removed as well	[21:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-22 16:39:07 jfw: the JS selector reminds me, billymg: I signed the two patches that seemed settled, in http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/ ; are they suitable for you as is?	[21:32]
billymg:	in http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/mp-wp_add-footnotes-and-textselectionjs.vpatch	[21:33]
billymg:	jfw: i also wasn't able to press locally with a keccak v.pl, the patches/seals looked fine to me so i couldn't figure out what the issue was. any ideas?	[21:37]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 21 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 4:24 pm

diana_coman:	goes to read cruciform's adventure with covid	[16:27]
diana_coman:	cruciform: you know, croydon (probably all london, in fairness) sounds – as usual – worse, really; as I even documented, it was never that sort of problem around here about food, huh.	[16:39]
diana_coman:	anyways, congrats on publishing it on time! how did the writing go/	[16:39]
cruciform:	diana_coman, slower than expected (as I'm finding with the gambling article) – there's a kind of resistance pushing back from the blank page: http://trilema.com/2014/a-conceit-or-the-importance-of-blogging/#selection-59.24-59.125	[16:42]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/19/the-soap-rush-and-the-toilet-roll-bubble/ there's something uniquely grim about grey English winters	[16:44]
diana_coman:	cruciform: that blank page resistance is real, yes; it doesn't quite go fully away either but it's less bothersome with practice (and having stuff to write about)	[16:48]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-01-23 12:26:50 ossabot: (trilema) 2020-01-23 mircea_popescu: being smart and having interesting work are the only cure to writer's block yet found or ever liable to be known	[16:48]
diana_coman:	and it was spring!!111 lolz	[16:48]
diana_coman:	in fairness, I should take some fresh photos with all this perfectly blue sky and shining sun, too	[16:49]
cruciform:	and lowered hambeast density :)	[16:50]
cruciform:	I'm looking forward to… looking back on these articles; it's really helpful to be able to refer to one's past self	[16:51]
diana_coman:	heh, it's even better than that – it's ~countryside style almost; tbh I'm in quite close-to-countryside area anyway, but now with almost no cars and very little noise, all birds and everything else is taking over; I won't complain of it either.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	cruciform: that is true; and moreover, stuff you write once tends to turn out useful later on anyway (in ways you can't predict now); just stick with it.	[16:53]
cruciform:	diana_coman, Oh, yes! I wrote an article on reasons for dumping my girlfriend in January – referring back to it has saved me the disaster of getting back in touch	[16:54]
diana_coman:	ahahah; where did you publish that?	[16:54]
cruciform:	it's currently unpublished; I might be too bashful at present to publicise it	[16:55]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Apr-2020#1024912 – thanks diana_coman for bringing it up, and bvt's approach has quite grown on me. Content-addressable referencing, even if imprecise, would be pretty great compared to depending on an also-imprecise and changing timeline.	[16:55]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-20 18:47:08 diana_coman: thank you jfw, trinque, bvt for weighing in on this; I'll revisit the gossipd documents too and think of it some more but so far bvt's idea seems quite fitting to me and I can't so far see any problem with it either.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	lol @bashful; I'll end up publishing that time when I had to tell the guys they are neither exactly 7 nor dwarves and I'm no Snow White anyway.	[16:57]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-21-Apr-2020#1024924 and this is reminding me of my need to move outta London – I was just about to before the lockdown kicked in, though I might just be using that as an excuse to delay my move at this point	[16:57]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-21 16:52:00 diana_coman: heh, it's even better than that – it's ~countryside style almost; tbh I'm in quite close-to-countryside area anyway, but now with almost no cars and very little noise, all birds and everything else is taking over; I won't complain of it either.	[16:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: I'm quite convinced it's one of those things where "precision" of the sort attempted with linenumbers is about as idiotic as it can get; it's not precise, nor can it be precise nor is there any real need for it to be precise really; yes, different clients might hear different lines in different order – so what of it?	[16:59]
diana_coman:	cruciform: where were you looking to move to?	[16:59]
cruciform:	Bath is first on the list, though I'll probably check out York, too	[16:59]
diana_coman:	aha, further away; Bath seemed rather grim to me but I can't say I tried all that hard to not-find-it-grim, lol.	[17:00]
cruciform:	Really? What didn't you like about it?	[17:01]
diana_coman:	cruciform: I only visited it so it's not like I have the full files on it; but …there was ~nothing I could find of interest, had this air of "it was something, once upon a time"	[17:03]
diana_coman:	then again, in fairness, I could apply that to quite a lot of places, lol	[17:03]
cruciform:	lol, was about to say: sounds like England in general	[17:04]
diana_coman:	(and now I realise I wrote of Cardiff but not of Bath, huh)	[17:04]
cruciform:	do you have any recommendations?	[17:04]
diana_coman:	even of Bristol actually but I did like Bristol better at least	[17:04]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what are you after? (and then again – it's you the local!!)	[17:04]
cruciform:	you're probably better travelled than I – I rarely leave the M25; I like university towns with nice architecture and cafes	[17:05]
jfw:	diana_coman: bitcoin comes to mind as something where order very much matters, though understood that's not the problem at hand, and even there we see hash-based rather than precise sequence based referencing	[17:06]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, for nice cafes, I'm afraid the only place where they have that is…Austria! lolz	[17:06]
cruciform:	aha! I've been meaning to visit Vienna; loved Prague, which I'm told is somewhat similar	[17:07]
diana_coman:	hm, nice cafes in …the UK?? good god, where have you seen such wonder?	[17:07]
cruciform:	well, nice enough !	[17:07]
diana_coman:	I suppose some of those patisserie valerie might sort of kind of qualify at times, but …well, they are quite continental, lol	[17:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's not that order doesn't matter; it's the precision at that sort of level the trouble; and yeah, it was re multi-way chat; basically gossip indeed;	[17:09]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I'm curious – why have you chosen England of all places to reside?	[17:09]
diana_coman:	fwiw I did revist the gossipd documents and discussions – there is "time" as field indeed but it's even specifically said that yeah, up to clients how they handle mismatches/differences because ofc they can happen; in a word – sanity.	[17:10]
jfw:	pretty much has to be time-according-to-what-clock I reckon	[17:11]
jfw:	though the sun gives a pretty reliable & objective low-resolution source!	[17:12]
diana_coman:	cruciform: because of such a combination of factors that I'm stuck picking one each time I get that question, lol; and I could swear I answered it at least a couple of other times in the log but couldn't find it now!	[17:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, logger should use sundial!	[17:13]
jfw:	goes to mount a lux meter on the roof and run a stratum-0 NTP server off it	[17:15]
jfw:	ah drat, that assumes They haven't lied to me about my longitude!	[17:16]
diana_coman:	cruciform: I suppose I could say in short that I loved the French from a distance too much to be able to stand the current them for longer than 6 months, I had admired too much the Austrians that are there no more to stand living among the remains only, I found the Italians too Romanian and so on	[17:18]
diana_coman:	jfw: they always lie about the longitude!!	[17:19]
jfw:	If only I had a real-time channel to someone near the meridian to correlate solar observations.	[17:19]
trinque:	diana_coman: heh, at this rate the next tolerable place will be a space station in 2538.	[17:21]
cruciform:	diana_coman, so, the English are the least depressingly degenerate European civilisation?	[17:21]
diana_coman:	trinque: for better or for worse I have those who keep convincing me every time to NOT go to the woods!	[17:22]
trinque:	plenty of great ranchland throughout texas still	[17:22]
trinque:	and proximate to the cities too	[17:22]
diana_coman:	cruciform: heh, now in what sense are they …ahem, european? lolz; but realise, the above is a matter of my own attachments in the end; basically the English were still to me foreign enough so that I am detached enough, familiar enough so that I can at least think (possibly entirely without any real base) that I understand any of it.	[17:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: the thing with woods is that in such case, I'm either spoiled for choice if I look at all the globe or otherwise I'll just go back to those mountains I used to roam as a kid and I still know them in detail, know their mushrooms and their bugs and their plants and all; what do I care of the rest anyway, if it's the woods.	[17:25]
diana_coman:	but yeah, at least so far I kind of anchored myself very well in not-woods; or so it seems.	[17:27]
trinque:	I'm just doing both, city place and shopping for a place for guns and bonfires	[17:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, why would one want to be detached (enough) from one's surroundings?	[17:28]
diana_coman:	well, here I'm on the outskirts-towards-countryside of a town that is extremely well connected (it's a sort of hub re trains and biggish airports around); while I didn't know it initially, it turned out that I'm also quite close to the "posh countryside" for whatever that does; but in any case – lakes and the sort of piddly woods that this flattish land has are on my doorstep really, yes, can't complain of that.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	cruciform: it depends what you consider there as part of those surroundings.	[17:30]
trinque:	cruciform: being able to buy things you need, without having to hear your termite neighbors fuck.	[17:30]
trinque:	in my case.	[17:30]
diana_coman:	notes that both neighbours are 90+ so no noise at all !	[17:31]
trinque:	gotta fuck softly when the bones are all porous!	[17:31]
diana_coman:	but anyway, yeah, not the sort of thing where one hears anything either.	[17:31]
diana_coman:	neah, it's a proper brick house and not wall-connected either.	[17:32]
diana_coman:	trinque: I kind of had that sort of setup in Italy really – great nature (and weather!!) and otherwise yes, had where to buy stuff without any trouble; the thing was that after a few wonderful years of that, I'd rather have moved to honest woods – because yes, can buy food and cloths and books; can't go though to a show worth anything unless going 4 hours and crossing the border sort of thing.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	cruciform: btw, that was part of "why England" or rather "why close to London" – to be able to go to a theatre play, the opera, a musical, a show, something other than apple orchards and hiking, lolz.	[17:37]
cruciform:	diana_coman, makes sense: close, but not TOO close!	[17:38]
diana_coman:	exactly so; and btw, it's faster to get to central London from Reading than from some parts of London!	[17:40]
cruciform:	ah, yea – I've been on that fast line to Maidenhead, iirc; on the topic of theatre, the newly revamped Fairfield Halls in Croydon isn't half bad – saw Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony there last month	[17:42]
diana_coman:	cruciform: the "fast line" they keep advertising is a slower line really, lol; there's just direct train reading-paddington, takes half hour or a bit less even.	[17:44]
diana_coman:	anyways, there probably won't be much remaining after all this, I can't quite see where/how/on what would all the theatres survive anyway.	[17:46]
cruciform:	diana_coman, along the lines of http://trilema.com/2020/in-a-transparent-attempt-by-the-man-to-distract-attention-from-the-internal-problems-of-the-republic-by-focusing-it-instead-on-the-lulz-in-africa/#comment-148138 ?	[17:50]
diana_coman:	cruciform: pretty much.	[17:51]
cruciform:	doesn't MP's recent writing scupper the YH project? Particularly when he talks about males not being able to produce meaningful work?	[17:52]
diana_coman:	cruciform: here's that question already answered in the logs; apparently you need to read even more recent logs!	[17:54]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-26 16:33:35 jfw: diana_coman: been sitting on the following question a bit but as there's no gain in silence I'll have it out: if you've had a chance to consider it yet, how do you interpret http://trilema.com/2019/so-i-was-thinking/#comment-148004 and specifically 'take my advice and do not ever indulge in the activity depicted. It is infinitely better to shoot any "smart" bois you run into on the spot than to	[17:54]
diana_coman:	follow the thread there.	[17:54]
cruciform:	diana_coman, will do, thanks; and yes – still need to read the logs!	[17:54]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 20 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 4:13 pm

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diana_coman:	I devoiced feedbot in here for now, so the logs-flood doesn't get in the way of discussion.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	(says /me the ever optimist re discussion.)	[16:28]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks for the feedback on http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/#comment-648 ! I tried replying with html formatting, but it seems one can't do that in comments?	[16:31]
diana_coman:	cruciform: hm, html formatting does (should!) work in comments – that's how I did mine for instance (using <blockquotes>); what html tags did you try to use?	[16:33]
diana_coman:	and you're welcome; looking forward to those articles promised for tomorrow evening, too!	[16:34]
diana_coman:	correction: the tag I uses is <blockquote>	[16:35]
diana_coman:	used* ; gah.	[16:35]
jfw:	dorion: you around and up for jwrd priorities discussion?	[16:35]
cruciform:	I was doing it via an online editor; <p style="padding-left: 30px;" align="left"> in an attempt to indent quotes – this works for articles posted on YH, but not in comments	[16:38]
diana_coman:	ah, you can use tags but not the full set of parameters and then anyway – how did you come with the 30px exactly? lolz; there's a reduced set of tags that will work inside comments.	[16:40]
jfw:	dorion: and one question coming to mind from while you were out was revisiting wallet or payments as a service. Could also include sweeping / recovery from various formats.	[16:40]
cruciform:	diana_coman, aha! the 30px is just the default indent the online editor used via their GUI (https://html-online.com/editor/)	[16:41]
jfw:	cruciform: sounds more like a compiler than an editor really – emits unreadable garbage you'd never type out on your own	[16:42]
diana_coman:	cruciform: aham, "default" whatevers will rarely be what you actually need for …your specific situation; kind of the thing with "defaults" like with "average person" – it is an average but one that fits no actual, real person; anyways, there's the blockquote tag that does what you need there, so…use it;	[16:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: maybe that's the point! I can see the appeal there – why have it emit what you could type yourself? Let it emit original works! ART!	[16:44]
cruciform:	jfw, diana_coman thanks! I guess I… "just wanted to"TM have something that "worked" without having to do any work!	[16:45]
diana_coman:	aha; it works ..to make more work!	[16:46]
cruciform:	lol	[16:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: makes sense of why all gui html exports seem to look like this; otherwise they'd have much less supposed reason to exist	[16:47]
cruciform:	jfw, dorion, I've not forgotten about http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023165 ; Iâ€™m still interested, but don't want to commit until Iâ€™ve actually managed a week or two of self-directed work	[16:47]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 22:23:48 jfw: cruciform, your sample class outline: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/jwrd-sample-01-initial-unix-commands.txt	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: exactly so.	[16:47]
jfw:	cruciform: cool, and welcome to the lots of talk about commitments and reviews party!	[16:48]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-18 05:14:16 lru: I've been trying to understand what this channel is about… so far seeing lots of talk about commitments and reviews :-)	[16:48]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what are you keeping busy with otherwise nowadays? (can't quite believe you clean that flat to obsession all the remaining one-week-minus-half-day-time)	[16:49]
jfw:	cruciform: we haven't forgot about a quote broken down by module either; I think it got swallowed up into a bigger sales article that's been dragging out.	[16:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, the talk's the party and the doing's the …afterparty?	[16:50]
jfw:	apparently sometimes the hangover.	[16:50]
cruciform:	diana_coman, mostly wasting time on anti-social media platforms, a la http://trilema.com/2019/no-platforms/ . I stopped ' em all last week, and didn't actually miss them at all!	[16:51]
diana_coman:	lolz, I was trying to avoid that word.	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: ^	[16:51]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Apr-2020#1024801 looking forward to seeing it!	[16:52]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-20 16:49:54 jfw: cruciform: we haven't forgot about a quote broken down by module either; I think it got swallowed up into a bigger sales article that's been dragging out.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	cruciform: it can be amazing how much free time one finds, once dropping various timewasters that are never missed otherwise, certainly.	[16:52]
jfw:	diana_coman: heh, the word didn't like be avoided then	[16:53]
cruciform:	diana_coman, quite; and how obvious in retrospect it is that these timewasters aren't just zero-value, but -EV in and of themselves: antisocial media is pure noise	[16:54]
diana_coman:	well, that's pretty much their whole model really – in exchange for farming you, they provide the easy way to feel like doing something; all day long; without work!	[16:55]
diana_coman:	cruciform: btw, re following proofs – there's no "shortcut" as such, sure, but there's practice with it that can give "speed up"; no idea how used you are to that though because myeah, unless you took the "pure Maths" modules at A level, there's precious little to none proof work as such in UK schools as far as I'm aware.	[17:00]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I did A-level maths, and yea; can't remember doing any proof work. I expected a steep learning curve, and haven't been disappointed!	[17:02]
diana_coman:	heh, enjoy it then!	[17:03]
cruciform:	"Enjoy" might be too strong a word at present, but I'll try!	[17:06]
jfw:	diana_coman: re bvt's vtools work, I got the idea that it had some shortcomings like lack of leafs command and a non-tree-like patch tree view, and would require further work from me either on GNAT builds or making v.sh do without. Whereas v.pl was supposed to be the known-working historical tool, and a relatively smaller investment there would be adequate for my present needs.	[17:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: he fixed those issues/lacks	[17:34]
diana_coman:	it does require gnat though, that's the price for using ada, true; and yes, in principle v.pl is the smaller investment route indeed	[17:34]
diana_coman:	but yeah, it has its own quirks for sure.	[17:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: good to know you consider them fixed now.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: what are you using for v-pressing/work anyway?	[17:36]
diana_coman:	(and yes re vtools; I have it on my list for this week to also mirror it all + publish my sigs for it, as they accumulated but I never set down to publish any of them.)	[17:37]
jfw:	diana_coman: v.pl for pressing. For diffing, the ill-fated vdiff on top of GNU diff presently.	[17:38]
jfw:	Which itself is not ideal for sure.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	ah, I had the impression you found v.pl inadequate for what you needed, in the end.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	eh, ~nothing's ever ideal, if it gets to that.	[17:39]
jfw:	hm, no I was happy with v.pl after the work I did on it, at least until finding this exp-time issue	[17:40]
diana_coman:	then it's just a matter of deciding whether it's something you can live with in exchange for not-having-to-get-gnat-too or not, pretty much; anyways, it doesn't sound like a priority-problem atm.	[17:41]
jfw:	ah but I did discover another shortfall of busybox patch – it doesn't delete empty directories after deleting the last file with the -E flag, that is, a presser built on it can never delete directories. This nudges me further toward embracing GNAT so as to get phf's vpatch program. But yeah, not seeing the priority quite yet.	[17:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: so give it some time then.	[17:44]
jfw:	will do.	[17:44]
diana_coman:	in other things, since I am looking again at the annoying issue with log lines and numbers and whatnots – my current thinking is to ditch that source of trouble entirely and simply use hashes for each line to identify it uniquely AND across whatever bots	[17:47]
ossabot:	(trinque) 2020-04-02 diana_coman: re bots – when/if they are in sync, they have the exact same numbers for all lines so in principle any links can be ported easily from one to another; but it is a very fragile thing for sure and no, I don't like it at all either.	[17:47]
diana_coman:	if anyone has a better idea, now's the time to speak up on it	[17:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: does that mean one person can never repeat the same line?	[17:48]
diana_coman:	the ordering is anyway a local matter for each bot and otherwise recoverable from any existing record if one cares enough.	[17:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: at the same time too?	[17:48]
diana_coman:	ah, you mean as repeat the content	[17:49]
diana_coman:	hm	[17:49]
diana_coman:	hm	[17:49]
diana_coman:	lol, there is that, with the begging the question as to ..how are those lines different then?	[17:49]
jfw:	diana_coman: and I recall you didn't want to include timestamps in that, indeed multiple bots will see them differently	[17:50]
diana_coman:	ie why would you want to identify them differently when they are the same?	[17:50]
jfw:	because they came at different times / replies to different context?	[17:50]
diana_coman:	ah, you mean as same content that just happened across the whole log rather than as above	[17:50]
jfw:	yes	[17:51]
diana_coman:	shall ponder this some more.	[17:51]
diana_coman:	the obvious thing would be ofc to use context but hm.	[17:51]
jfw:	so just saying "yes" like that would be user-error… lolz	[17:52]
diana_coman:	eh, not user-error, no; in this context there is no user error possible really	[17:52]
jfw:	if we reinvented irc so each client would send its own unique ID with the message, would be easy…	[17:53]
jfw:	(though someone could temporarily squat a nick and repeat IDs to possibly cause trouble.)	[17:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, even there, it can be the same client saying the same line with the same id at different times so in that sense still potential clash; what it's not yet clear to me is whether this sort of clash is in itself a problem though, hm.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	basically either there's sync on some external counter/similar or on the content+context, not much else as option that I can see at all.	[17:56]
jfw:	I haven't yet tackled the old gossipd discussions but maybe there's something of use in there?	[17:59]
diana_coman:	the thing with external sync-token of whatever sort is exactly that it's …external; an addition that needs justification and so far I'm not sure I can still see the full case for it.	[18:00]
diana_coman:	I'll probably end up re-reading around that, yes.	[18:00]
trinque:	hash does seem the reasonable line identifier. it'd be interesting to simply allow for multiple orderings of messages. if my bot had lines yours didn't, and mine communicated this to yours, there's no reason your bot couldn't present its ordering as "what I saw" and also have some way of displaying what others claim was seen.	[18:03]
diana_coman:	trinque: the point jfw makes above is that there can be lines that repeat eg on different days, aka not just a matter of "which one made it in first"	[18:05]
trinque:	sure, and this is no problem.	[18:05]
trinque:	consider for a sec how git works. you have a hash db, and atop that a tree of references.	[18:05]
trinque:	your "log" is a link list of references, and there's no problem with referencing the same hash in multiple places along the linked list	[18:06]
diana_coman:	that's pretty much why I was saying earlier that I'm not that sure that it is a problem in itself; still, I don't really recall the reason /rationale why exactly was this linenumber mechanism pushed into current logbots.	[18:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-20 17:55:11 diana_coman: jfw: well, even there, it can be the same client saying the same line with the same id at different times so in that sense still potential clash; what it's not yet clear to me is whether this sort of clash is in itself a problem though, hm.	[18:07]
trinque:	I don't see a reason for it, other than a political THERE SHALL BE ONE TRUTH	[18:07]
trinque:	which sure, there's one truth, but many denotations	[18:08]
jfw:	Are we talking about strong or weak hashes btw?	[18:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: what do you mean?	[18:08]
diana_coman:	all hashes are voodoo anyway	[18:08]
jfw:	do references end up like http://logsite/4d752030a579980bae0c2012f70227b6f9436fd3154b995219cde0656b92cade126828b089b43881bea81e737b44df3189e800c82b330f31634e02a206829287 ?	[18:09]
jfw:	at that point I wonder what it gains over quoting the message in full.	[18:09]
trinque:	one could both have that as a canonical reference, and also have relative reference mechanisms that are human-friendlier.	[18:09]
trinque:	one never hand-types the smaller int identifiers either, ftr	[18:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: I am trying to make sure it's not just my bias that makes me not see there some reason other than exactly that "ONE TRUTH AND NO DENOTATIONS ALLOWED TO EXIST EVEN IN PRINCIPLE"	[18:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: your question there needs to include context to have some meaning; ie "strong" hashes exist; this doesn't mean they have to be used everywhere as such	[18:11]
trinque:	it'd be pretty interesting if a hash worth considering had collisions that were also coherent natural language.	[18:12]
jfw:	should be doable mad-libs style	[18:13]
diana_coman:	trinque: well, atm "hash" means keccak as far as I'm concerned; not sure why would I introduce another one.	[18:13]
trinque:	yep	[18:13]
jfw:	alright, and keccak has infinite output stream so indeed lends itself to considering particular truncations for different uses	[18:14]
trinque:	it is interesting to think of alternate addressing systems that could handle line insertions.	[18:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: re links, that's no issue really because that is already presentation of the content so you can do it whichever way you want and as a separate thing from the logging itself anyway; eg the lines end up in blog articles anyway, so can simply have there counters per article, there's the whole context given anyway, not like one needs to drop the hash in the article itself; bot can recover the rest when/as needed; after all, that's …	[18:16]
diana_coman:	… one thing at which machinery is supposedly useful.	[18:16]
diana_coman:	trinque: what do you mean re addressing systems?	[18:17]
jfw:	"Fifth-and-a-half street"	[18:17]
trinque:	what jfw alludes to, can have some amount of wiggle room per unit in your line enumeration, such that references are stable but there's room to insert	[18:19]
jfw:	diana_coman: then the blog in question becomes that external provider of line identity?	[18:19]
bvt:	diana_coman: thinking about it, imo it's interesting to quote a line in the context, not just the line itself; so the address should include a bit of context as well	[18:20]
diana_coman:	bvt: question there is what exactly do you pick then as "context"	[18:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: for some…context! there's no way you can somehow mandate that such thing is not possible, how would that be?	[18:21]
diana_coman:	sure, you can choose whether you use that presentation or not but that's about it all	[18:22]
bvt:	i.e. http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=rCkQ -> the address for line4 could be '48a7-8d32-57d248cff05137eb3a2eaf2352b838350186ae95-346c-d134', and when resolving the link, would attempt to maximize the number of matching context hashes, ignoring the order of non-central elements	[18:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: if one simply uses truncated keccak hashes, in principle can insert anywhere and nothing changes anyway, the enumeration is separate entirely.	[18:23]
jfw:	diana_coman: not following, was I mandating something?	[18:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: when you say that the blog becomes that external provider of line identity; how does it become? it doesn't; it provides an enumeration and nothing more.	[18:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: is that any different from what the separate bots do now through their sequence numbers?	[18:26]
jfw:	I admit I'm not quite sure the problem to be solved here.	[18:26]
diana_coman:	bvt: so you mean previous lines as seen by one logger	[18:28]
diana_coman:	previous n lines	[18:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: the core question I had was why does logger bot bother exactly with line numbers to start with	[18:29]
bvt:	yes, but ignoring the order, and mandating, for example, at least 2 or 3 out of 4 context matches	[18:30]
diana_coman:	note that this is at logging time, not at presentation time; hence the difference re blog is that well, blog does presentation not logging, to start with.	[18:30]
trinque:	bvt: that's a pretty interesting idea.	[18:31]
diana_coman:	bvt: that would be about the most straightforward definition of context of a line available, indeed; picking a number out of hat anyway re how many previous lines.	[18:32]
diana_coman:	but I guess it can even be flexible really	[18:32]
diana_coman:	ie can request as many or few as one wants at one time or another	[18:32]
bvt:	yes, it straightforward; well, also could pick the context lines not consecutively, but pick e.g. 4 context hashes out of range of +-10 lines for the url	[18:35]
diana_coman:	so overall it seems to me to tend towards store lines as they are seen locally; identify by mixed-hashes within the group; can even take lines after the one sought, etc.	[18:35]
diana_coman:	but all of it goes back to – it's enough to have the hash for the line; can then build on top of that whatever strategy to identify uniquely a line with as much precision as one considers needed.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	(and now I'm even more puzzled than before re why linenumbers currently, ugh)	[18:36]
diana_coman:	thank you jfw, trinque, bvt for weighing in on this; I'll revisit the gossipd documents too and think of it some more but so far bvt's idea seems quite fitting to me and I can't so far see any problem with it either.	[18:47]

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#ossasepia Logs for 19 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 4:03 pm

diana_coman:	trinque: confirmed !!ledger working perfectly now, thank you.	[04:53]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 14 Jul 2019	[13:04]
diana_coman:	I'll set a script to publish #o logs as daily articles on ossasepia.com ; apologies for the potential clutter of the feed until getting up to date.	[13:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-15-jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 15 Jul 2019	[13:26]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 16 Jul 2019	[13:30]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 17 Jul 2019	[13:41]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 18 Jul 2019	[13:50]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Jul-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 19 Jul 2019	[14:00]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 01 Aug 2019	[14:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 02 Aug 2019	[15:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 03 Aug 2019	[15:14]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 05 Aug 2019	[15:25]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 07 Aug 2019	[15:35]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 08 Aug 2019	[15:45]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[15:51]
deedbot:	cruciform voiced for 30 minutes.	[15:51]
cruciform:	diana_coman, having resolved to get to work on http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/ , I managed a grand total of… 8 hours of productive activity all week(!) Obviously, this is dreadful; Iâ€™ll have a postmortem up this evening	[15:54]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 09 Aug 2019	[15:56]
diana_coman:	cruciform: ahaha, quite a sort of… achievement!	[15:58]
diana_coman:	at least it sounds like good fodder for the post-mortem indeed.	[15:58]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Apr-2020#1024686 lol, the failure was about the only thing that wasn't half-hearted!	[16:02]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-19 15:58:14 diana_coman: cruciform: ahaha, quite a sort of… achievement!	[16:02]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 10 Aug 2019	[16:06]
diana_coman:	cruciform: why so half-hearted anyway?	[16:12]
diana_coman:	at any rate, I'll certainly read tomorrow anything published on yh, sure	[16:12]
diana_coman:	for that matter the above is valid for anyone else who might find it useful – lobbes, BingoBoingo, dorion, jfw, whaack	[16:13]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 11 Aug 2019	[16:15]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023427 – btw, lobbes, I guess this gets sorted today meanwhile since there wasn't even that write-up coming out nor anything and there's little point to just keep waiting like that; so cancel that server and save the money, at least.	[16:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 23:09:35 lobbes: I ask because I'm still renting that server in Brasil and don't mind holding it for a bit if you'd have a use for it. Otherwise, I'm gonna go ahead and cancel it and save some dubaloos	[16:16]
diana_coman:	there we go, should be good unless disconnected	[16:22]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 12 Aug 2019	[16:26]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 13 Aug 2019	[16:36]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 14 Aug 2019	[16:45]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow	[16:45]
lobbes:	diana_coman: roger that on the server. I have some #o logs to catch up on this week, among other things	[16:49]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 15 Aug 2019	[16:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 16 Aug 2019	[17:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 17 Aug 2019	[17:17]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/23/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Apr-2020#1024691 Iâ€™m not really sure; Iâ€™m excited to get stuff done, but I felt a sort of resistance to actually getting down to it and working. Iâ€™ve not had a shedule in as long as I can remember, so it might just be a matter of ingraining the habit. More thoughts in the postmortem on YH	[17:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-19 16:12:10 diana_coman: cruciform: why so half-hearted anyway?	[17:21]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 18 Aug 2019	[17:26]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 19 Aug 2019	[17:35]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 20 Aug 2019	[17:46]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-21-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 21 Aug 2019	[17:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 23 Aug 2019	[18:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 24 Aug 2019	[18:17]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 25 Aug 2019	[18:26]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 26 Aug 2019	[18:37]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 27 Aug 2019	[18:46]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 28 Aug 2019	[18:55]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 29 Aug 2019	[19:06]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/19/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 30 Aug 2019	[19:15]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/20/ossasepia-logs-for-31-Aug-2019/ << Ossa Sepia — #ossasepia Logs for 31 Aug 2019	[19:26]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/19/wh-review-of-week-27-26-skipped-april-13-april-19th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Review of Week 27 (26 skipped) April 13 – April 19th	[21:15]

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April 22, 2020

Silvery Flesh on Twisting Bones: 2nd Parade of Hopefuls

Filed under: Coding,Computer Graphics — Diana Coman @ 4:13 pm

Although – or possibly exactly due to the fact that – the previous parade of Euloran hopefuls was rejected wholesale as too cancerous-looking, word seems to have spread out in the vast lands of Chaos and Havoc about this unique opportunity for all the twisted creatures out there to come to light and have a career annoying human players and other annoyable ones. As a result, here I find myself swamped with pics of hopeful-talent begging for a place in this article. So scroll down for the images or keep reading for all the details how they came to be as they are.

The delay of 11 days since last parade is due mainly to the work required to sort out first all the more serious troubles of this invading talent: disjointed bones, stacked up piles of required transformations and otherwise additional calculations and headaches to figure out and finally fit – or so it’s hoped ¹ – that annoying straitjacket that goes by the name of cal3d’s skeleton format ². Once all bones were thus helped to fall more or less ~~graciously~~ somehow in place, the rest consisted mainly in bashing and awk-ing a few over the head of the otherwise uncooperative client code ³. The result of it all was a very busy computer churning out meshes and skeletons, setting the first on the latter, firing up the client and letting the resulting hopeful pose before a nearly invisible Cally, taking a screenshot, killing the client ⁴ and then proceeding to repeat as requested. Having thus set the computer to work, I went and soaked up the sun outdoors while the scripts worked tirelessly, the hopefuls hoped hopefully and otherwise the material for this article of mine was getting nicely done, sorted and stored in the right place too, “all by itself” ⁵.

Before moving on to all the images though, here’s the summary of the main parts done since my last article on this, mainly so that I unload it all and have it here as reference for next article:

Updated the skeleton generation so that:
- – bones in the skeleton don’t criss-cross/overlap one another: the algorithm starts now with the point closest to the centre of the unit sphere and then expands from there greedily, picking up at each step the next unconnected point that is closest to the sphere’s centre and connecting it to the closest point to it that is already connected.
- – the number of points in the volume and on the surface of the sphere as well as the seed to use for the prng are exposed now as parameters to the script – this was needed and is useful at automation time, to generate as many skeletons as I wish. Worth noting here that each skeleton generation uses only the beginning of the prng sequence with the given seed – I don’t think this is any issue as such but still better written out in clear.
- – the resulting skeleton is also written with *all* the required calculations of *everything* in the .xsf format that cal3d understands. This was the biggest pain and time-eater this past week, by far. Eurgh.
Updated the script setting a mesh to a given bone:
- – the script calculates now the actual length of the mesh from its vertices and uses that to figure out the required scale factor so the mesh fits the length of the bone. Previous version of this script used an approximation based on the parameters used at mesh generation time – it was good enough for starters but it kind of reached its limits when I really turned on the knobs to generate hundreds of meshes and all that as in some cases the error was annoying.
- – the script also figures out the lowest point of the mesh and then does the required translations so that the resulting mesh is always “on the ground” basically. This was needed because otherwise there is variation and it’s impossible to set anything so it’s in a fixed place – some would be too high up and others end up underground.
- – a fix so that the mesh after all the required transformations is indeed set exactly where the bone starts; it turns out the previous version had an error due to how the transformations combined and that error resulted in some poor disjointed creatures with gaps between meshes. As this sort of errors tend to go, it took some hunting ⁶ to find out just which tiny bit and where was I getting wrong in all that but that made it all the more satisfying when I finally found the trouble and fixed it – the result is happily jointed creatures, too, so hooray!

Read some more and this time I finally managed to find the out-of-print original Peitgen book which turned out to be a pleasure to read even though a rather hefty one if one looks at the number of pages. Unlike the easy-to-find and way more popular book with shiny pictures ⁷ that focuses primarily on the various discovered “ways to do this or that” ⁸, Peitgen’s book focuses on walking the reader through a way to building up their understanding of fractals and how they are linked with chaos theory.

Experimented some more with different mesh deformations and what various parameters may or may not do – the main benefit here is that I quite know by now in the current setup how the various parameters tend to affect the result. Given the previous “cancers”, I pushed the buttons to have less of that and more of “creatures” but I’m not sure it’s quite there yet. I even generated a few meshes without fractals altogether, leaving the deformation to prng alone – the results are not terrible perhaps and they are certainly less intricate but I don’t think they are any good or even really in the best direction either. Instead, I think it’s possibly a different base function that might be more promising but as it tends to happen, the idea came fully formed only today after all the week’s reading and experimenting had time to settle down a bit and started to come together otherwise.

Experimented a bit more with textures too – just like for meshes above, it’s still not fully there yet and I have some promising ideas and directions to try out moving on, so whenever I’ll get some time for it. Anyways, I did get a few variations and got some not-bad new textures too. One interesting thing to note though is that there are textures that look lovely as images but don’t turn out all that well on the creatures themselves so there’s apparently some more to experiment on what matches the meshes and what doesn’t!

To start with, here are first a few texture pics:

Two of what I call “overdone” textures – they look like that to me as images but otherwise they can turn out not-bad on a mesh (especially the one on the right that is a multifractal as opposed to the one on the left that is just a higher level of noise single fractal):

Two sets of textures obtained by varying the colour and domain coding while still using a multifractal – especially the 2 in the second pic tend to give meshes this sort of “transparent creature” effect, I’d say:

A set from the play with stereographic mapping of the texture’s domain itself – I was curious how this turns out especially because I am currently using stereographic mapping from the texture to the mesh itself so it made sense to see if generating a “spherical” texture to start with works better. In practice I wouldn’t say it does, no. The difference between the two textures here is given by the amount of “noise” allowed in and the number of fractal iterations (they are both single fractals though):

One texture where I just tried out trig functions, without any clear idea really:

Finally, some differently coloured Mandelbrot’s as I ended up using the black and white one for the parade of hopefuls (though the yellow /single coloured ones also create at times interesting effects):

And finally, the pics you wanted all along – the hopefuls themselves! They are *all* generated using the very same mesh, just set on all the various bones so that the whole difference between what you see is at all times just one of skeleton. Here’s the first set of 50, generated ALL with skeleton seeds from 1 to 50 (MT prng), with points in the sphere volume between 4 and 8, points on the sphere surface between 4 and 8:

While the above set turned out some funny creatures, I thought they really could do with more bones to help shape out some proper poses. So here’s another set of 50, using the same skeleton seeds but with points in the volume between 7 and 13 and on the surface again between 7 and 13:

I should say the above makes for some clearer tails and even various potential limbs of sorts, even though the poses are full of…enthusiasm at times! The first two above got to try on some other skins too (see at the very end for the shots), as I think they are actually not that bad at all but in any case, otherwise, why stop at 7 to 13 bones when I finally have all the scripts at the ready? Let there be bones for everyone, so here are the shots from a run with 21 to 31 points in the volume and another 21 to 31 on the surface – those are only for seeds 1 to 31 as it turned out that even 4 seconds was not enough for CS to fully render the resulting mess-of-a-mesh and I didn’t bother to redo the run just for that (each additional bone adds up another full set of the original mesh’s vertices and apparently it’s not that hard to make CS slow down this way, at least when measured against the controlling bash script’s rush to shoot, heh):

I find quite a few in the above set absolutely hilarious – for instance the one at skelseed 24 still makes me laugh, no matter how many times I saw it. So maybe it’s not all that bad, with this idea of increasing bone count, after all! But still, since they already look segmented enough and otherwise CS/Cal3d seem to huff and puff for longer than before, how about turning instead the knobs to have more points on the surface, in the idea that this way there’s a push towards getting more limbs of sorts, right? Right, so here’s the result of the run -another 50 shots!- with points in the volume between 3 and 5, while points on the surface are between 5 and 13:

Having made it *this* easy to turn knobs around and get silly stuff, I couldn’t stop there, of course. Next run had 3 to 8 points inside the sphere and 9 to 31 on the surface:

While there seems to me that there might be a slight difficulty in deciding just which parts are what sort of limb, I’d say at least that in the above case, limbs there are quite plenty at times! And seed 25 even looks to me close enough to those American football gear types – overgrown/padded upper limbs ftw! Anyways, last run of silliness for today comes with points in the sphere between 5 and 9, while points on the surface are between 11 and 21:

Note that all the above use just one mesh that is created with one seed and so yeah, one of any number available otherwise. But this aside and in the most utterly serious manner otherwise, I also threw various pots of paint at 2 of the creatures from the set with points 7 to 13 (same inside as on the surface) while they were posing:

For the next steps, the main new area opened up for work now would be animation really – getting to figure out how to make all those bones move too, so that it gets really interesting. Other than that though, there would still be more experimenting to be done, perhaps implementing and trying out some new base function(s) for the fractals to see if I can have it generate meshes that look -perhaps- more like tool-yielding creatures than like drunken knotted fluffy ropes of sorts!

There’s also a potential issue to consider as the more intricate the mesh is, the more vertices and triangles the polygoniser is forced to generate and that gets multiplied by whatever number of meshes a single creature is made out of. On one hand I can always make the polgoniser’s steps wider and so reduce the number of triangles but on the other hand, this reduces also the detail and thus how interesting the resulting mesh is. At the moment there was a visible slowdown noticed when I ran the generator with most bones (hence most meshes per creature too) – I had to increase the delay of the bash script to 4 seconds to make sure that CS had time to render everything before the screenshot was taken.

This can’t really be properly checked until I have some animation going on too; and even then it will be a pain because “correct” is -in some interpretation at least- whatever happens![↩]
At which point I have to reiterate that no, cal3d’s bones are NOT bones at all, no matter what your optimism might insist on – they literally are articulations at most, there is no length either, not even implicit! It’s not the case that a bone starts where the previous ends (or that the previous ends where the new one starts), no – it’s just the case that the “length” like the “width” does not matter, it’s inconsequential. Each “bone” from cal3d’s point of view is just a point and that point is meant to be the new origin for all transformations related to the “bone”. So the “length” there doesn’t matter at all in any way and moreover, there isn’t even any sort of limit as to what bone acts on what mesh or anything of the sort! Basically a “bone” can even spread everywhere as far as cal3d is concerned – all that matters is where it “starts” and nothing more. This created first some headache as I was still -silly me- entertaining the notion that maybe I was indeed wrong and it was just some implicit length, so I was still trying to fit actual bones in that structure and getting all in a twist about it. This was solved of course when I finally figured out the different convention – although this different convention also means that in some cases I have some trouble when picking out a “root” bone because that can easily be the starting point of 2 bones in my generated skeletons. Anyway, long story short – it’s done now and so far cal3d eats it happily, I’ll see at animation time how it behaves and if there’s still any trouble left to smooth out in this area.[↩]
The darned thing initially failed to just set the camera where I wanted it pointing – because it turned out that there was another init that just forced a viewpoint it knew best! And once I sorted that out, I had further to hunt down where it insisted also on setting as initial camera mode this one where you can see the char with the camera but not what the char is looking at. After which it finally showed what I wanted – except there are still some slivers of Cally on the sides but who cares about those, just ignore them for now, I said. Except this was not all because the brilliant code has its own “screenshot” capability and that would be supposedly even better to use than taking an external screenshot as it can make sure the frame drawing finished before capturing the image. But then, it is “supposed to work” through a user command in the client’s own “command line” and otherwise the corresponding method is not exposed to be used by other code and moreover it wants a full-blown GEM-this-and-that and all sorts so that the whole thing turns out a simple screenshot into a huge thing for no good reason at all. At which point I just set the bash script to wait a bit for the client to load all, call imagemagick on it (import -window “Eulora (2.0)” $filename) and then just kill the client by pid directly. What can I tell you – if you keep saying you can’t do this and can’t do that and won’t do the other thing either, the result is not that whatever it was to be done doesn’t get done – it’s simply that it will not be done *with* you but rather *to* you and not in ways of your own choosing either.[↩]
I couldn’t be bothered to take the trouble to make it close down gracefully. Let it be killed several times per minute instead, can’t say I even feel sorry about it.[↩]
Could also just happen that my computer loves me, sure.[↩]
And recalculating the darned stuff several times again because I kept thinking I had just made some mistake when working out the formulae – but it wasn’t that this time, no.[↩]
Texturing and Modeling. A Procedural Approach. Ebert, Musgrave, Peachey, Perlin and Worley[↩]
Aka recipes, making for a rather frustrating read, especially as otherwise the authors clearly do have a deeper understanding of it all – they just cater to not stressing the poor reader because too many such readers, I guess.[↩]

Comments (14)

#ossasepia Logs for 18 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:32 am

diana_coman:	jfw: heh, so now you know the length of your maybe half hours!	[04:48]
diana_coman:	!!up lru	[05:12]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[05:12]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia lru	[05:12]
deedbot:	lru voiced for 30 minutes.	[05:12]
diana_coman:	hi lru, it's enough to ask for voice – and then use it reasonably, that's about it all.	[05:13]
lru:	that's fair enough	[05:13]
diana_coman:	what brings you here?	[05:13]
lru:	I've been trying to understand what this channel is about… so far seeing lots of talk about commitments and reviews :-)	[05:14]
lru:	general bitcoin interest, and the fact that the trilema channel closed, and this one appeared to be something of a continuation	[05:15]
lru:	oh… I'm also curious if the bots you folks use is open source or not	[05:15]
lru:	for irc	[05:15]
diana_coman:	it's about learning, working efficiently and effectively with others and generally building up what you do so it grows day by day, sustainably, rather than going nowhere in a year or less.	[05:16]
diana_coman:	lru: do you have a site/blog/write anywhere?	[05:16]
lru:	I used to, but not anymore… I was writing more opinions than a log of projects, and it didn't serve the use I originally wanted, so took it down	[05:18]
diana_coman:	this chan started in fact before trilema closed, it was part of tmsr; it's not a continuation of #trilema itself, no; there's the article linked from the topic giving some more details and otherwise lots to read around	[05:18]
diana_coman:	lru: why take it down anyway? (and in the process break the links of anyone and everyone who linked to your writing, for that matter)	[05:19]
diana_coman:	lru: you know, in general, ~nothing serves "the use I originally wanted" – mainly because you can't really tell upfront like that what something will end up useful for; but that's a feature, not a bug!	[05:21]
lru:	normally I'd agree, but this was about religious and political topics, and leaving it there would have done more harm than good, I believe	[05:22]
diana_coman:	lru: how/why?	[05:23]
lru:	it would have been the equivalent of someone posting a howto of how to use grep with examples that didn't work :-)	[05:24]
lru:	better to just read the primary material	[05:25]
diana_coman:	lru: so you add a big-red warning upfront "meanwhile I realised this is bullshit" or similar , sure; but leave it there, there's no harm to it, even better to have it in fact as reminder that yeah, usually that's how things go – not that straightforward as it seems otherwise.	[05:26]
diana_coman:	so link to the primary material and send readers there, what	[05:26]
diana_coman:	the thing is this – whether it's still there or not, you still wrote it at that time and it's still part of your history; just "taking it down" doesn't win for you anything but it does come at a cost – all those broken links + no visible history at all + "that's the guy who vanishes" etc	[05:27]
diana_coman:	can even keep it as "archive" or whatever, but no win from not keeping it, that's about it all.	[05:28]
diana_coman:	lru: anyways, what are you working on otherwise, if you don't mind saying?	[05:28]
lru:	true.. and I think it's still stored somewhere on a disk, just not live… it was not a decision I took lightly at the time… probably 9 years or so ago now	[05:29]
lru:	systems admin and web service development at the moment… personally, my pet project is making the timewarrior tool work for me	[05:30]
diana_coman:	lru: what's the timewarrior tool?	[05:30]
lru:	it's a command line time tracking software	[05:30]
lru:	it was 90\% of what I needed, just had to polish the rest	[05:30]
diana_coman:	lru: how big is it and what does it do beyond "keep track time per task" ?	[05:31]
lru:	not very big, only found it a few days ago… it's one of those unix-like 'do one thing well' tools… it makes tracking and editing fairly easy, focuses on categories first and descriptions second (which is a paradigm shift from other tools), shows charts by day/week/month, totals, etc, and stores the raw data in text files	[05:33]
lru:	written in C++, python for extensions (or anything really, it uses stdin/stdout)	[05:34]
diana_coman:	ahahah, just when I was typing that it sounds potentially interesting and/or at least worth writing up a review of it and publishing on your fresh blog, you drop the c++ & python, heh	[05:34]
diana_coman:	next I'll hear that "not very big" means it's ~only 100k loc!	[05:35]
lru:	is C++ and python verboten around here? :-)	[05:35]
diana_coman:	not a million yet	[05:35]
diana_coman:	lru: nothing is verboten around here	[05:35]
lru:	yep, not a million lines yet :-)	[05:35]
diana_coman:	it's just inefficient and not something I want to import anywhere for the basic task of keeping track of time on tasks, ffs; awk and bash are more than enough for that.	[05:36]
diana_coman:	anyways, if it won you as a champion for it, still nothing wrong with writing it up and publishing that; but that's the thing – do speak up publicly for the things (and people!) you like, what.	[05:36]
lru:	yep… I figured it was worth finding what already existed instead of starting from scratch, and was happy to find it	[05:36]
diana_coman:	well, there exist a LOT of things, that's the modern trouble; it's not "it doesn't exist" but "there's a pile to sort through and a life to sink into figuring out which of them is least broken"	[05:37]
lru:	I did notice a penchant for publishing when I was reading the channel over the last few days :-) my default mode is quiet… is there a philosophical reason for writing?	[05:38]
lru:	oh yeah… "which one is least broken" is indeed a task….I limited my search to things that were already installable from the Debian repos… still had to junk a lot	[05:39]
diana_coman:	so it's not even enough to say "finding what already existing" really; it's more "finding what is already used and maintained by people I want to work with, long term" – because you'll need to work with others if it's to add up to anything really	[05:39]
diana_coman:	lru: yes, there's lots of reasons for writing and of all sorts really; it starts with the fact that writing IS thinking – it forces you to structure better and it quickly shows where/what you don't master that well, in a word it's the most basic tool of intellectual life anyway	[05:41]
diana_coman:	and in addition to that, it allows others – useful others – to interact with you and help	[05:41]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia lru	[05:42]
deedbot:	lru voiced for 30 minutes.	[05:42]
lru:	true, part of a bigger picture of cooperation and potentially business too	[05:47]
lru:	is your irc bot open source btw?	[05:47]
diana_coman:	lru: sure, the alternative – and even the most usual and most common alternative – is the ~autistic "will work on my own, no need to talk and waste all that time" and/or with added various flavours of "won't change, no matter what" ; it never really gets one anywhere, there's plenty of examples to look at, but it can feel very virtuous or whatever else, sure.	[05:48]
lru:	or perhaps based on one that is?	[05:48]
diana_coman:	lru: which one?	[05:48]
lru:	the one that does the logging	[05:48]
lru:	and the web frontend	[05:48]
diana_coman:	ah, there is the code published, sure; though I want to ditch that shit, ffs	[05:48]
diana_coman:	yeah, see on my Reference Code Shelf from my blog	[05:48]
lru:	thanks, I'll take a peek	[05:49]
diana_coman:	lru: do you know about V for version control?	[05:49]
diana_coman:	because hm, "open source" is a rather horribly failed experiment as such	[05:49]
lru:	no, only had experience with cvs, rcs, svn, git, and a microsoft one from the past	[05:49]
lru:	source safe I think it was called	[05:50]
diana_coman:	lru: here's an introduction/overview : http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/13/a-walk-among-the-trees-of-v/	[05:50]
lru:	thanks	[05:51]
diana_coman:	fwiw I did use cvs, svn, git , even a few others and gah, I hope I never have to have one of those on a computer of mine, lol	[05:51]
lru:	I've pretty much settled on git these days… never heard of V before	[05:51]
diana_coman:	lru: you'll need to at least run a V for those vpatches of the logbot; there's a starter pack http://ossasepia.com/2019/11/10/v-tree-and-v-starter-v2/	[05:52]
diana_coman:	lru: for how long have you been around #trilema?	[05:52]
diana_coman:	did you read it at all?	[05:52]
diana_coman:	and yeah, of the bunch and before realising that I can ditch it, it was git I had uncomfortably settled with, indeed	[05:53]
lru:	I joined the channel a few times, but didn't keep up with it… it was interesting in a sense of "half the conversation seems to be missing" most of the time :-) I mostly read the blog,and read the logs if they were mentioned in a blog post	[05:54]
diana_coman:	lru: re my "code control with V",here's the article: http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/05/the-v-tree-nursery-or-code-control-with-v/	[05:54]
diana_coman:	lru: kind of weird you didn't pick up on V then anyway, as it was quite central, hm (and yes, introduced on trilema.com)	[05:55]
diana_coman:	anyway, you've got already quite the reading list there	[05:55]
lru:	maybe I read "V" and had no idea what it referred to :-)	[05:55]
lru:	who wrote V?	[05:55]
diana_coman:	re logbot though, I'll underlign that the current thing uses python and moreover it imports the nightmare called "flask" ; it forces also postgres and it ensures that you are locked in with it because yeah, if you change, you'll break everyone's links	[05:56]
lru:	I found most people don't like git until they read and understand the book "Git from the bottom up"	[05:56]
lru:	but that's newbies	[05:56]
diana_coman:	so no, I don't like it and I am still using it atm as I didn't get around to sink some time to excavate myself out of its shit	[05:57]
diana_coman:	will do it too because it's becoming unbearable but myeah, not yet done	[05:57]
lru:	chuckles "nightmare called flask"	[05:57]
lru:	isn't flask based on sqlalchemy under the hood? that's supposed to abstract the DB	[05:58]
diana_coman:	lru: I read the git book years ago, and I liked git better than the rest of monsters; but as that v-tree nursery article says in the very start, it's just bringing in on my systems a lot of things I have no need for, ie it's asking for too much from me for what it does	[05:58]
diana_coman:	lru: here, I have an article for that question too: http://ossasepia.com/2019/09/02/ossabot-and-its-flask-of-python-27-on-centos-6/ (and see? that's why it's best to publish – don't need to re-tell the same thing every time one asks)	[05:59]
lru:	:-)	[05:59]
lru:	I'm loading up the tabs here	[05:59]
diana_coman:	see, it's enough to start talking for a bit and then… it explodes!!	[06:00]
diana_coman:	lolz	[06:00]
lru:	lol	[06:00]
diana_coman:	anyways, happy reading then; I'll try to get around to give you a rating too and then you should be able to !!up yourself	[06:01]
lru:	thanks very much!	[06:01]
diana_coman:	or hm, trinque – is this working now?	[06:01]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-13 16:17:43 diana_coman: cruciform: try it in chan please	[06:01]
diana_coman:	lru: anyways, if it's not working/you don't have voice, just ask me in pm and I'll sort it out one way or another	[06:02]
lru:	no worries… as I said, my default mode is quiet, so not like I have urgent things to say anyway :-)	[06:02]
diana_coman:	better find them! heh; (but seriously, ONE good thing I learnt in all those years at uni was really this – to ask questions; HAD TO ASK questions, even! because yes, initially I sucked at this, totally)	[06:04]
lru:	true, especially when time is of the essence	[06:04]
diana_coman:	lru: you'll need to register a key with deedbot before I can rate you though, lol	[06:05]
lru:	does deedbot have a manual?	[06:05]
diana_coman:	!!help	[06:05]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[06:05]
lru:	thanks	[06:05]
lru:	wonders idly if 'deed' in deedbot enjoys both meanings	[06:06]
diana_coman:	trinque: btw, deedbot isn't answering to my pm !!ledger commands (sent one on the 16th and still not answered; one 2 minutes ago and still not answered)	[06:06]
diana_coman:	lru: there's reading on that too! :D	[06:07]
diana_coman:	(won't add it now to the pile, you can find it anyway)	[06:07]
lru:	the web of trust document? or something else?	[06:07]
lru:	I did read MP's web of trust blog page	[06:08]
diana_coman:	more really, since it's (just like V) part of a wider whole, of course	[06:08]
lru:	ahh ok	[06:08]
diana_coman:	anyways, I'll be away from keyboard for a while, laters!	[06:08]
lru:	cheers	[06:08]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-nude-wedding/ << Trilema — The Nude Wedding	[10:00]
trinque:	hm interesting, will look diana_coman	[13:32]
trinque:	huh! the command's gone. I wonder if I deployed an old wallet service.	[13:34]
trinque:	should be easy to fix, will let ya know.	[13:34]
trinque:	yep confirmed. the command's there now, but I need to fix something with the number formatting, currently being displayed as rationals, which is quite a pain!	[13:47]
trinque:	will get that decimalized this afternoon. I recall I encountered this in the past.	[13:48]
trinque:	in other news, jfw and dorion, I've been running some experiments locally on minimal-footprint gcc bootstrap.	[13:49]
trinque:	it began as a refactoring of the musl-gcc scripts ave1 found and modified.	[13:49]
trinque:	I'm working with gcc-4.7.4 per your indications that it's the last to bootstrap with C compiler alone.	[13:50]
trinque:	so far I've only got binutils, busybox, gcc, linux kernel, make, mawk, and musl as dependencies.	[13:53]
trinque:	rather, + mpc, mpfr, and gmp, which I've merged into the gcc src.	[13:54]
trinque:	and I understand that the same can be done with binutils, which seems entirely appropriate.	[13:54]
trinque:	I had the whole thing building (and self-building) last week on gcc-4.9.4, but pivoted to gcc-4.7.4	[13:55]
trinque:	once I get the 4.7.4 build sorted (there's some include-path fuckery that appears to be a known issue with 4.7.4) this should be an exemplar of what I was driving at with the OS series so far.	[13:56]
trinque:	from there, I have some notions on how to allow bigger dependency chains to be brought in (to build eulora, for example) without having them engulf the system, and suddenly "oh you need clang on every box because mesa"	[13:57]
trinque:	at any rate, haven't forgotten about any of this, been working on all of it, but I wanted to prove out some of my claims before going forward.	[13:58]
diana_coman:	trinque: good to hear from you; I'll give another go to deedbot's ledger later today then; is self-voicing working now for those I rated 1 or more?	[16:27]
jfw:	trinque: well, I did get a gcc-4.7.4/musl build pretty well documented, including those dependencies (minus mawk, busybox awk seems to have worked fine) and a couple patches, and not using those musl-cross magic scripts	[16:40]
jfw:	speaking of awk though, I've been finding it pretty obnoxious trying to stick to the standard (or let's say busybox-compatible, lacking a formal standard) and avoiding gnuism	[16:47]
jfw:	bb awk: 3k lines; gawk: 80k	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: myeah, there is that re awk & gawk (on both line count and pain if trying to stick to standard; there are also some things that pretty much require gawk; I still prefer it to python & co)	[16:51]
jfw:	but, how can it claim to be a string-oriented language while not supporting NUL separators, on unix where NUL is the _only_ reliable separator for file paths?! I'm supposed to what, base64 them? but awk doesn't understand that either. Or even hex/octal numbers.	[16:52]
jfw:	diana_coman: yeah I could see it as gawk compared to python	[16:53]
jfw:	I imagine gawk must implement garbage collection, since it allows e.g. arrays containing arrays. But, well, my Scheme does that, and sockets, subprocesses, bignums… all under 10k lines, so what's their excuse!	[16:58]
diana_coman:	read and find out! lol	[16:59]
jfw:	diana_coman: I suppose I'll have to; a linux needs an awk after all and seems it's not a clear decision yet on which	[17:03]
diana_coman:	as usual, it's a matter of what you are fine to do without, really	[17:07]
diana_coman:	sockets are in gawk only though afaik	[17:07]
diana_coman:	ie directly, as I used for sonofawitch	[17:07]
diana_coman:	that being said, I don't need that on eg. an offline machine	[17:07]
diana_coman:	(though I would still want awk there, lol)	[17:08]
jfw:	there's inetd style tools to pass a client socket down to a child on particular file descriptors… ofc awk can't read/write arbitrary FDs either	[17:10]
diana_coman:	well, that's the main addition there, indeed; read/write from/to arbitrary fds	[17:12]
jfw:	well I suppose it can if you count print "cat >&3" and such	[17:14]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Apr-2020#1024485 – indeed.	[17:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-18 04:48:53 diana_coman: jfw: heh, so now you know the length of your maybe half hours!	[17:19]
jfw:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Apr-2020#1024565 – there something wrong with postgres, as DBs go? and why would it be hard to change the web view without breaking links?	[17:38]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-18 05:56:19 diana_coman: re logbot though, I'll underlign that the current thing uses python and moreover it imports the nightmare called "flask" ; it forces also postgres and it ensures that you are locked in with it because yeah, if you change, you'll break everyone's links	[17:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's not wrong per se, no; but I resent being tied to it for no good reason really (other than "so it happened"); and given that otherwise publishing means mpwp which uses currently mysql, I see no reason to add postgres to the pile; fwiw I used both postgres and mysql otherwise, I know of die-hard supporters for both, I still don't care that much to go to war for either.	[17:40]
jfw:	I recall full-text search mentioned as an advantage of postgres for the application	[17:41]
jfw:	though wordpress normally has a search feature so dunno how substantial that is.	[17:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: the search thing is always a contention for this to start with ie on one hand if you want to get the raw data can get it and do whatever search you want and on the other hand if it's published, I much rather it was integrated with the blog otherwise and not require me to maintain 2 things; and yes, exactly re wordpress; really, I can't see a reason for it being yet another thing	[17:44]
trinque:	jfw: interesting, I will have to revisit what brought mawk in. I'd thought gcc demanded it. did you perhaps alias mawk -> awk?	[18:15]
trinque:	diana_coman: sitting down to another round of deedbot tweaking now, will make sure the voice params are also changed.	[18:15]
jfw:	trinque: POSIX awk should suffice per https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html	[18:17]
diana_coman:	trinque: cool, thank!	[18:17]
diana_coman:	trinque: cool, thanks!	[18:17]
jfw:	(and no I haven't made such an alias)	[18:17]
trinque:	jfw: yep, loudly didn't though in my case, so I'll figure out why.	[18:18]
jfw:	autoconf most likely :(	[18:18]
trinque:	diana_coman: to confirm, your rating of 1, or your L1's rating of 2 (or more) == voice?	[18:20]
jfw:	lru: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Apr-2020#1024571 – no, in fact pretty much Flask's only claim to being "micro" is that it doesn't mandate an ORM like, say, Django.	[18:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-18 05:58:22 lru: isn't flask based on sqlalchemy under the hood? that's supposed to abstract the DB	[18:25]
diana_coman:	trinque: what I wanted was this: anyone with positive ratings (>=1) from me to be able to self-voice; those with rating >2 from me to act as "lordship" or whatever ie their l1 to be able to self-voice too; if this is too much/complicated, I'm open to any proposal really – my idea was to give people an easy way to self-voice but not necessarily get together with any newcomer all their newcomers too; otoh can just get all and if they …	[18:26]
diana_coman:	… bring in idiots, will negrate and it will still work I guess.	[18:26]
jfw:	lru: I've used sqlalchemy but don't care for it these days. You think it gets you out of database-picking politics, but this comes at the cost of quite a volume of code (and not even pure python!)	[18:28]
diana_coman:	!s hi	[19:57]
sonofawitch:	Hello there, diana_coman	[19:57]
diana_coman:	!o uptime	[20:03]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 15d 10h 21m	[20:03]
diana_coman:	!o help	[20:13]
ossabot:	diana_coman: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen	[20:13]
diana_coman:	!o version	[20:15]
ossabot:	I am bot version 597858.	[20:15]
trinque:	diana_coman: ledger fixed, found the patch I was missing.	[22:16]
trinque:	re: your request on voice thresholds, makes sense. I need to simplify the involved code a bit, will circle back tomorrow and oughta have it working as described sometime then.	[22:17]

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#ossasepia Logs for 17 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:22 am

feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/made-in-romania/ << Trilema — Made in Romania	[03:34]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Apr-2020#1024466 – yes, I'm ready to fully recommit.	[14:36]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-16 18:09:31 jfw: dorion: apart from the sales leads you've been working on, have you decided whether you want and are prepared to recommit to the ceo role for jwrd?	[14:36]
jfw:	dorion: alright then, I'm still in. Let's get some fresh coals into the firebox and do this.	[15:59]
jfw:	diana_coman: not going to have the review done on the hour (how unseemingly on-early-time would that be anyway!), for one thing I got started late. No questions from me today; I can break to chat if you like otherwise will keep going.	[16:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: how long do you think it will take to finish it?	[16:17]
jfw:	maybe half an hour	[16:18]
diana_coman:	jfw: sounds good then.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[16:33]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/17/jfw-review-14-17-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, 14-17 Apr 2020	[18:10]
jfw:	the fabled maybe half hour, what.	[18:14]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/04/trout-steak-pimienta-con-queso-a-refreshing-pool-aromatic-flowers-in-butt-pointy-metal-things-on-butt-a-party-with-mp-and-billymg/ << whaack — Trout, Steak, Pimiento Rojo con Queso, A Refreshing Pool, Aromatic Flowers in Butt, Pointy Metal Things on Butt – A Party With MP and Billymg	[22:10]

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#ossasepia Logs for 16 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:12 am

diana_coman:	spyked: feedbot seems to be mia.	[11:49]
spyked:	diana_coman, thx for the ping. looking at it in a moment	[12:23]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/minigame-smg-statement-on-q1-2020/ << Trilema — MiniGame (S.MG) Statement on Q1 2020	[12:27]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/04/awareness-of-eventual-death/ << whaack — Awareness of Eventual Death	[14:50]
feedbot:	http://billymg.com/2020/04/mp-wp-user-survey/ << billymg — MP-WP User Survey	[16:06]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Apr-2020#1024351 << thank you. i think it will be useful for my own understanding at least, yes	[16:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-14 16:11:12 diana_coman: billymg: I guess it works; not sure it will be much use tbh but that part is up to you anyway	[16:06]
diana_coman:	billymg: np; I'll try to get around to answering it too, will report how long it takes.	[16:31]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/kitty-freipurr-von-meow-and-other-tales-of-bring-your-own-adventure-to-tamarindo/ << Trilema — Kitty Freipurr von Meow and other tales of Bring Your Own Adventure to Tamarindo	[16:36]
billymg:	diana_coman: awesome, ty!	[16:38]
diana_coman:	billymg: children and the like did not care for careful timing but anyways, with interruptions and all that, close to half hour.	[17:16]
billymg:	diana_coman: wow, i was even about to write that i intended for it to take no more than 30 minutes but didn't because i was afraid it would bias how you answered the questions	[17:18]
diana_coman:	billymg: there is some leeway ie if I went full on to dig to list in detail ALL changes to code I ever made, it could have easily taken way longer, lol	[17:19]
billymg:	diana_coman: makes sense. and this was of course not expected on my end, i couldn't ask people to do research to help with my research	[17:20]
billymg:	earlier i put together a mysql query for diff'ing two tables that i was going to share (to diff a fresh installed options table against a configured one), but too much noise in that and ultimately decided answers from memory would be sufficient	[17:23]
diana_coman:	billymg: out of curiosity, do you plan to push this to a wider stage too? since you made the one for not-mp-wp users	[17:24]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia new_yh 17	[17:24]
deedbot:	new_yh 17 voiced for 30 minutes.	[17:24]
diana_coman:	hello new_yh 17	[17:24]
billymg:	i just mentioned it in asciilifeform's channel as well, and dropped the link after a member there showed interest	[17:25]
diana_coman:	billymg: I meant literally asking on forums/blogs/wider	[17:25]
diana_coman:	otherwise those are still reading this chan's log anyway,lolz	[17:26]
new_yh:	f hy	[17:26]
diana_coman:	waves	[17:26]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, i see. no, hadn't thought of that yet	[17:26]
diana_coman:	what brings you here, new_yh 17 ?	[17:26]
billymg:	diana_coman: though not a bad idea	[17:27]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Apr-2020#1024243 – I am. I apologize for my silence. It has been a weird couple weeks, several aspects of reality I had been avoiding manifested at once and I pretty much shut down.	[17:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-13 17:02:35 diana_coman: dorion: you around at all anymore?	[17:27]
billymg:	could serve as some advertising/recruitment as well	[17:27]
dorion:	through that came clarity, clarity that I've been fighting depression on various levels for a long, long time. I'd never admitted it to myself, but did through this process, which was a relief.	[17:27]
diana_coman:	well, you are putting work into mpwp anyway so I don't see why not try to get more people to use it too,anyways.	[17:27]
billymg:	diana_coman: yes, definitely	[17:28]
dorion:	diana_coman I am ready to engage here again and live out the pledge.	[17:28]
diana_coman:	dorion: oh hey, welcome back !	[17:28]
dorion:	diana_coman thank you.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	dorion: that sounds like some very… charged time indeed	[17:29]
diana_coman:	wonders at time just what do new people find so scary in a chan that is actually active, huh.	[17:30]
dorion:	diana_coman charged is an apt description, lol.	[17:31]
dorion:	more charged when I consider what it cost me, but I'm ready to move forward and use the resources I sitll have.	[17:35]
jfw:	pictures dorion with hand on van de Graaf generator, hair standing on end from the static, wanting to touch ground but stopped by anticipation of the shock	[17:38]
diana_coman:	dorion: funnily enough, those are the type of resources that grow/become more available with use so ..sounds like a plan	[17:38]
diana_coman:	dorion: I did note once re your… optimism but there's a big limit to what words and notes can do on their own, for sure.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: hope your next article includes a sketch too!	[17:39]
dorion:	diana_coman yeah, the overoptimism as counterbalance connection was made almost immediately, but took some time to say out loud here.	[17:43]
diana_coman:	dorion: glad you did, even if took that long.	[17:46]
dorion:	diana_coman me too, thanks.	[17:51]
billymg:	diana_coman: left a small follow up comment for when you have a moment	[17:56]
diana_coman:	billymg: answered	[18:07]
jfw:	dorion: apart from the sales leads you've been working on, have you decided whether you want and are prepared to recommit to the ceo role for jwrd?	[18:09]
jfw:	there is a gap to be filled from your absence; doesn't need to happen Right Now but will need to happen.	[18:12]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[18:17]
whaack:	dorion: heyo, welcome back!	[18:33]
whaack:	billymg: I keep getting sent to a page that says "Spammers need not apply" when I try to comment on your blog	[19:25]
whaack:	here is my response to the survey: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=38MO . (I tried removing all but 1 link and then commenting again, but I'm still getting spam filtered)	[19:27]
billymg:	whaack: fished it out of the spam trap, tyvm	[20:35]

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#ossasepia Logs for 15 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 1:02 am

diana_coman:	!o uptime	[16:26]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 12d 6h 43m	[16:26]
jfw:	!s hi	[16:26]
diana_coman:	!s hi	[16:27]
sonofawitch:	Hello there, diana_coman	[16:27]
diana_coman:	:P	[16:27]
jfw:	!s hi	[16:28]
diana_coman:	I guess I could have it say that it doesn't talk to strangers, lolz	[16:28]
diana_coman:	ahaha	[16:29]
diana_coman:	go ahead	[16:29]
jfw:	!!up not_diana_coman	[16:29]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[16:29]
jfw:	!!up #ossasepia not_diana_coman	[16:29]
deedbot:	not_diana_coman voiced for 30 minutes.	[16:29]
not_diana_coman:	!s hi	[16:29]
diana_coman_not:	!s hi	[16:30]
jfw:	it's a shy bot.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	ahaha, now that's an idea, yes; I'll have it log stuff to the yh.club mp-wp database too bwahahah	[16:31]
jfw:	hey, if a hundred-line awk program can talk to mysql I'll be impressed	[16:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: why not? it can call system on anything really, what's the trouble?	[16:33]
jfw:	ah true, could use mysql shell and just need to implement quoting. I was thinking the socket protocol.	[16:34]
diana_coman:	yep; and no, I do not want to implement the socket protocol!	[16:34]
diana_coman:	sheesh	[16:34]
diana_coman:	there's plenty for this tiny tot-bot to grow into but ahem, it's waiting on some crumbs of time to fall off eulora's plate, atm.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	I guess I could use historical data to make sure it files any plans & reviews believably late though, can't have it unseemingly on time now.	[16:38]
jfw:	diana_coman: looks like you've been having fun with the mesh generation over there	[16:40]
diana_coman:	true, I finally figured out a wtf in the pile of transformations to set any mesh on any bone, so my poor beasts are not disjointed anymore.	[16:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: how do you mean 2 levels – a 2-level classification of how the time is spent so reports can be made at either granularity?	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: you said you find the non-standard labels useful as they give you more detail; so make them perhaps something like writing:router so you can aggregate at level 1 "writing" or 2 where you differentiate between writing:router and writing:trb	[17:08]
diana_coman:	task:notes perhaps, no idea what works best for you there	[17:09]
jfw:	ok	[17:09]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[17:21]

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#ossasepia Logs for 14 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:52 am

feedbot:	http://bingology.net/2020/uruguay-ssr-and-the-hallucinated-seige/ << Bingology – The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier — Uruguay-SSR And The Hallucinated Seige	[00:33]
jfw:	gah, it's been taking longer to reread and write up that conversation for my review than it took to have it the first time; and I wasn't set up well mentally as I had the idea that review was pretty much done except for some pasting and there was just the plan, as opposed to http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Apr-2020#1024329 .	[03:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-13 18:21:07 diana_coman: jfw: anyways, will you write up and publish then today the review and plan based on the discussion above?	[03:21]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/14/jfw-review-week-of-6-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 6 Apr 2020	[04:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: reading the published review, it seems it was done (there isn't really anything new in there) but kind of done to you rather than by you, lolz.	[04:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: what can I say. sorry I've missed the plan, I seem to be fussing over it quite a bit, this improving estimates and realism and completeness but also doing in less time is a tough circle for me to square. I'll get some sleep and give a fresh look.	[04:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: works.	[04:58]
billymg:	diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xakV << draft list of questions for survey. there is also a survey for non-mp-wp users. my idea is to publish this list of questions as an article on my site and then ping a few channels to solicit some responses as comments on the article. this way all the responses will be collected publicly in one place and i can ask follow up questions inline	[13:00]
billymg:	let me know if you have any feedback on the questions themselves otherwise i can go ahead and publish as is	[13:02]
diana_coman:	billymg: I guess it works; not sure it will be much use tbh but that part is up to you anyway	[16:11]
diana_coman:	the q re modifications and settings will be a pain to answer anywhere close really given the long history with it otherwise, huh	[16:12]
diana_coman:	possibly worth a try anyway, why not	[16:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: what's the fuss over /re plan anyway?	[16:12]
jfw:	diana_coman: it seems after yesterday's convo I'm more confused about what a plan is supposed to be anyway. More descriptive about what I'm likely to end up doing? Prescriptive about what I presently think needs doing or want to focus on?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: what is normally a plan for you?	[16:27]
diana_coman:	to me normally a plan is a commitment really: I intend to DO those things.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	and that's a reason why I keep to it, too; sure, not idiotically without considering changes to the context but "given what I know now, this is what I intend to do" so if/when what I know changes, the plan can change too	[16:30]
jfw:	To me it's been more of "things I'd like to happen and figure there's some chance of", I suppose.	[16:30]
diana_coman:	yeah, more of a wishlist burnt on the altar and forgotten too :D	[16:31]
diana_coman:	not much need for that, no.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	also, in that case, why limit to what seems to have a chance, at least go fully for it and list what you'd like to happen, what if it …does? :))	[16:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: but do you really fill your whole working schedule with commitments? you've also said to plan in some flexibility I recall	[16:34]
diana_coman:	it's never really worth it to go half way only anyway, so if it's a commitment make it be one and if it's a wishlist let it be a proper wishlist	[16:34]
diana_coman:	jfw: there is flexibility, sure – part of it comes from all the time buffers, part of it from the time permitting, part of it from the above "if context changes, so will the plan – explicitly though, even if it's in the middle of the week"	[16:35]
diana_coman:	and then there is of course the level of detail – ie no need to go in super detail upfront when you can't even know that; but if your plan says "publish an article every other day" then it's a commitment you'll write one and publish it although yeah, flexibility as to what content, how long etc; if it says "sort out healthcare" then that is a commitment that you will work on that although sure, the result might be that it's fully …	[16:37]
diana_coman:	… sorted or not yet, but you did apply yourself to that task.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: and there's also nothing wrong with listing specifically some time for what I was calling yesterday opportunistic tasks, what.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	the plan is literally to see what you intended to do and then compare with what you did, learn from it and decide on the next move; not some sort of "form" to fill, nor some sort of madness/bureaucracy/dunno-how-to-even-call-it	[16:39]
diana_coman:	and ofc it helps in principle with coordination with others too; but only to the extent that it has anything to do with reality, sure.	[16:41]
jfw:	hm, does "intended" speak of wishes or commitments? or something else?	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: where?	[16:43]
jfw:	"to see what you intended to do"	[16:43]
jfw:	coulda sworn I knew what intent was but somehow unsure now, lol	[16:43]
diana_coman:	to me it speaks of commitment, yes; I don't quite have other sort of intentions but I suppose it's better said "to see what you had committed to do "	[16:44]
diana_coman:	for clarity	[16:44]
jfw:	alright	[16:44]
diana_coman:	now I wonder what might everyone took the plans for, even; lol	[16:56]
diana_coman:	take*	[16:57]
jfw:	you mean I'm not the only mouse or man whose plans gang aft aglay? couldn't be!	[16:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: lol; there's a reason (with a long history too) why I'm almost allergic to… intentions, let's say.	[17:01]
jfw:	wishes dressed up as commitments?	[17:02]
diana_coman:	myeah; and sold as such too, for as long as in the very least allowed to.	[17:03]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/14/jfw-plan-14-19-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, 14-19 Apr 2020	[19:06]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 13 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:42 am

whaack:	diana_coman: I wasn't around the terminal much this week and don't have anything to report for the week's review (which is going to be 1 day late along with the plan.)	[01:48]
jfw:	I thought about doing the review and plan on Fri and Sat, but went instead on impulse to push through with my TRB patching work (which went well; article upcoming). Then I thought about doing it today, but figured that'd be continuing to support the habit of imagining time can be freely dug up out of sleep/leisure/whatever. I'll do them tomorrow.	[02:36]
diana_coman:	whaack: by the sounds of it there's no need for all the trouble of an article on it – the review seems to be "took holidays" so that much you already said above; as to the plan – there was one you made last week but you made it for keeping up the appearances, nothing more so why bother making yet another one this week?	[04:38]
diana_coman:	whaack: drop that irc data collection whatever since it's clearly dead anyway, forget about it; on my side I'll consider it failed and burried, half a year was more than enough time for it, I'm not going to wait endlessly.	[04:41]
diana_coman:	whaack: write on your blog what articles you want, see if you find there any motivation to keep to it for real.	[04:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: so much thinking about it is probably what kills it in the first place and how it ends up pushed in the night; the bigger question though is – why do them at all anyway?	[04:42]
diana_coman:	and talking of which, looking at the list there, it turns out there's lobbes who found the time to communicate clearly and stick to it, there's jfw who found at least at last possible minute the time to communicate what's going on, there's whaack who keeps saying that work would be nice but fun is more fun so there's at least clarity and then there's nothing from BingoBoingo and from dorion.	[04:48]
diana_coman:	so I gather that it's lobbes and jfw that still find any use for it; I'll move the rest to hopefuls – you can still write or not write, talk or not talk, as you did until now but there's at least no need anymore for all this pretense of deadlines and wanting any feedback or finding it useful or whatever else.	[04:54]
diana_coman:	if any of you wants out of it entirely, just let me know.	[04:56]
diana_coman:	!o uptime	[07:01]
ossabot:	diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 9d 21h 19m	[07:01]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia sonofawitch	[08:08]
deedbot:	sonofawitch voiced for 30 minutes.	[08:08]
diana_coman:	!s hi	[08:08]
diana_coman:	!s reconnect	[08:08]
diana_coman:	!s quit	[08:09]
diana_coman:	!!up sonofawitch	[08:18]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[08:18]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia sonofawitch	[08:18]
deedbot:	sonofawitch voiced for 30 minutes.	[08:18]
diana_coman:	!s hi	[08:18]
sonofawitch:	Hello there, diana_coman	[08:18]
diana_coman:	!s reconnect	[08:18]
diana_coman:	nice; seems there might still be some bits to iron out on timeouts/errors reading from the socket but otherwise awk-bot seems to do the job just fine.	[08:20]
diana_coman:	feel free to poke it with !s – it should not react/answer to anyone other than me, so far.	[08:20]
whaack:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Apr-2020#1024180 ack.	[12:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-13 04:41:58 diana_coman: whaack: write on your blog what articles you want, see if you find there any motivation to keep to it for real.	[12:21]
diana_coman:	whaack: there's also a comment on yh.club for you.	[16:11]
diana_coman:	cruciform: you should be able to !!up yourself now, let me know if it's still not working.	[16:12]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[16:17]
deedbot:	cruciform voiced for 30 minutes.	[16:17]
diana_coman:	cruciform: try it in chan please	[16:17]
cruciform:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[16:18]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	thanks.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	cruciform: I gave you voice via ChanServ, should remain on unless you disconnect; at any rate, just ping me in pm if you can't get voice otherwise; it will get sorted one way or another.	[16:19]
cruciform:	diana_coman, great, thanks	[16:19]
diana_coman:	np	[16:20]
diana_coman:	lru: ask for voice in pm if you are ever around and want to talk.	[16:21]
whaack:	diana_coman: responded to the comment as well.	[16:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: well here I am "thinking" again about that bigger question	[16:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-13 04:42:56 diana_coman: jfw: so much thinking about it is probably what kills it in the first place and how it ends up pushed in the night; the bigger question though is – why do them at all anyway?	[16:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: you can also simply choose either a. do them (and then JUST do them, without any further thinking) or b. not do them (and then idem, just no more thinking of that sort either)	[16:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: or can't you ? lolz	[16:40]
jfw:	diana_coman: simply choosing to just do them just doesn't seem to end up so simple!	[16:41]
diana_coman:	whaack: and answered.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: what do you mean?	[16:41]
jfw:	if I could do them just like that, by deciding to, then I can't say why I don't.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, because you don't decide to, as simple as that; just like earlier that "thinking about doing them on Friday and Saturday" was more likely "I did remember about them and about the fact that I should do them but…"	[16:46]
jfw:	I can say that the reason to do them at all is to be helpful to myself, and to let you see what's happening so your feedback can help too. And that has been helpful – but I can't say I've done it gladly or really made the most of it	[16:46]
diana_coman:	jfw: right; why not gladly?	[16:47]
diana_coman:	kicks deedbot	[16:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: maybe there's parts of me that don't want to change	[16:48]
diana_coman:	basically uhm, why not be glad about something that is helpful?	[16:48]
diana_coman:	yeah, well, nothing ever wants (as in naturally would aka in turn, easiest path/lowest resistance) to change, sure;	[16:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: listen, it turns out that you managed nevertheless to decide and just come online at this 7pm utc daily, correct?	[16:49]
jfw:	yep	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: so then, decide similarly to answer a set of questions in writing on Fridays at 6pm UTC (or some specific hour); for one hour; publish the result as the review; I suppose we can even do that live now if you haven't done the review for the past week anyway	[16:51]
diana_coman:	why does it even have to be anything more complicated than that, I have no idea.	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: did you do the review for the past week meanwhile?	[16:52]
jfw:	laughs, doesn't have an idea either. And no, didn't meanwhile.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: right; so then, here's the link to your plan for last week – what's the status for each of the tasks 1-9?	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: lol, do I need to ask specific questions for each so you don't spin on "the full status, what might that include"?	[16:58]
jfw:	1: drive upgrade is done, via manual backup and restore, but backups not scripted for that machine (which it occurs to me is part of why I hadn't been using it much). 2 and 3 are done. I did some of 7 by email. No progress on the rest.	[16:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: did they take roughly the time listed in the plan or not ?	[17:00]
jfw:	They took quite a bit longer.	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: by what approx factor?	[17:00]
diana_coman:	dorion: you around at all anymore?	[17:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, if no idea then set it double or triple for now.	[17:02]
jfw:	hm, actually looks like the 6 hrs for #3 was close, came to about 7. Triple for #2.	[17:03]
diana_coman:	jfw: any idea why that far away on #2 or why it ended up taking way longer than you genuinely expected it will?	[17:04]
jfw:	I wasn't very clear at planning time what was involved in doing it or how prepared I was	[17:06]
diana_coman:	ok, so the conclusion there is to remember to apply that doubling factor at least, unless you are really sure you know the task very well indeed (as was the case for the trb patches which you clearly knew way more about)	[17:07]
jfw:	I also went to look through mod6's blog and leave a comment on what I'd done; apparently still in spam queue, naturally.	[17:07]
jfw:	alright	[17:07]
diana_coman:	myeah, last time I tried to comment on mod6's blog I couldn't even find a way to do so ,ugh	[17:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: adding up the time on those tasks that got done/worked on – what's the total and how does it compare to the total you set for work during the week?	[17:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: actually, hm, you worked in fact on something that wasn't in the plan, right? so what was that + what did you achieve there + add the time there too	[17:09]
jfw:	right, that included archiving ave1's blog, trying to round up the dependencies for the gnat recipes, finding it wasn't too clear what those were, tracking them down, and in the process generating a full download index for adacore and writing that up.	[17:11]
jfw:	will take a bit to sort through the time logs, let's see.	[17:11]
diana_coman:	what does that add up to, as time?	[17:11]
diana_coman:	will wait.	[17:12]
jfw:	oh yeah, there was also the cleanup and writeup of mp-wp patches.	[17:13]
diana_coman:	so instead of 4,5,6,8 and 9, you did the set above, more or less opportunistically let's say, fine; add it all up and see the totals anyway, for starters.	[17:15]
jfw:	mp-wp work + writeup 5h; ada work 5h; ada writeup 8.7h; ssd upgrade 3.8h; trb keccak tree 2.43h; trb patch revision & testing 6.73h; then more I hadn't mentioned here: testing mobile internet as a backup for irc + some email & chat that got lumped in: 2.2h; TRB SetHex investigation + writeup, 3.1h. Total: 37h	[17:28]
jfw:	hours specifically estimated on the plan came to 16 though this didn't include anticipated writing.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	jfw: so on one hand the total comes to a reasonable amount, slightly less than a 9to6 job, lol; otoh, your plan anyway covered only 16 hours so it was for starters a sort of half-plan at best, lol	[17:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: now look at the items on the list that didn't get done and answer why didn't they get done? starting with the scripts that are still missing for 1	[17:33]
diana_coman:	it's just a question, meant to simply figure out – why didn't that get done?	[17:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: btw, since it took 20 minutes to just add the totals up, it sounds like you could script that part already, it's a bit too much time to take for what should be an automated report already, pretty much.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	(and having that automated report would possibly even help with doing the review to start with)	[17:36]
jfw:	(the hours there also don't include #o chat time.) They didn't get done because, well, I chose to spend more time on other things that came up	[17:36]
diana_coman:	eh, that's no answer, lol	[17:36]
jfw:	heh, didn't feel like one too.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	you spent time on manually backing that up but not on automating the process – why?	[17:37]
diana_coman:	dunno, you hate scripting backups or you don't consider worth scripting backups for that or whatever	[17:38]
diana_coman:	it wasn't burning!	[17:38]
jfw:	part of that was a bunch of data on the machine was itself redundant and didn't need a new backup… but yeah no reason that couldn't be put in a script	[17:38]
diana_coman:	the question is not why not script it, but rather why did you prefer to not script it, heh	[17:39]
diana_coman:	because you obviously did, for whatever reason.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	at 4, I can already answer the question as to why it didn't get done, lol	[17:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: how about 5, the v.sh/vtools study?	[17:40]
jfw:	I did have a guess about 4 the last time it didn't get done, heh. on 5, hm, didn't seem that important presently.	[17:42]
jfw:	likewise 6	[17:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: cool; why did you put it in the plan though?	[17:42]
diana_coman:	("had to put SOMETHING in the darned plan at 1 am!!")	[17:42]
jfw:	because I still find it interesting and something I'd like to move toward using.	[17:43]
jfw:	should have been a 'time permitting' then?	[17:44]
diana_coman:	ah, so it's more that the plan says what you'd find good and proper to do; the reality ofc shows what you actually want to do; and the review gets stuck most probably because it forces you to confront the huge gap between the 2, which is not an unknown but something you'd much rather not see ; esp not week after week ffs	[17:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: not necessarily; it depends on what you decide ie now the review shows all this; so you look at it all and draw some conclusions based on what you want to work on as changes for next week; this is basically the next question – what do you want to change for next week?	[17:46]
diana_coman:	("nothing! it's all fine, honestly!")	[17:47]
jfw:	well there would be a partially-new list of tasks as usual but you're after higher level changes I think, hm.	[17:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: the change is in your approach, yes; the list of tasks aka the plan will get made one way or another depending on that, too.	[17:48]
diana_coman:	one point of the review is to actually look at what happened vs what you thought/planned to happen; another point is to give you information to decide on what you want to tackle to improve next.	[17:49]
diana_coman:	we are pretty much done with the first part, now on the second part of it.	[17:50]
jfw:	on one hand, it doesn't seem so bad that I got a bunch done that wasn't entirely what I set out to do. on the other, if there could be less of a gap, seems that would be nice.	[17:51]
jfw:	I could put more thought and thus detail into the plan	[17:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: the fact that you got that done is certainly not a bad thing in itself, no; and there's no reason to consider it bad either, that's not at all the point; but you should ask yourself why and how the gap and if it's helping your or doing quite the opposite	[17:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: bah, that's not much of an answer either, lol	[17:53]
diana_coman:	jfw: let's see, you have the tasks that were planned and not done – those get a good long look and since it seems that they didn't get done simply because you didn't consider them important/urgent/worth enough to do, they get either discarded plainly without further pretense or otherwise pick ONE and decide to do it as in DO IT, no more thinking and whatnot.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: then you also have the tasks that weren't planned but got done – those show the more likely directions you'll want to work this week on anyway; so you use them to inform your next plan so it's closer to reality (+ doesn't miss again half of what is actually going on)	[17:56]
diana_coman:	so from those two parts above you get your plan done in no time too; and then you can further add, if you really want to, some "time permitting/would be nice to" task but one at most, it's unlikely it will get done anyway.	[17:56]
jfw:	yeah those rarely do.	[17:57]
diana_coman:	the review is done, the plan should now take not more than 15 minutes, and that's it.	[17:57]
jfw:	I like the discarding or picking one approach.	[17:58]
diana_coman:	from 20:45 my hour when we started to 21:48 now, ~1hour including the overhead of talking to someone else	[17:58]
jfw:	I don't quite get though how the unplanned tasks show what I'll want to do next week, seeing as they're done now	[17:58]
diana_coman:	and you should automate a report from that time logging	[17:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: the directions of what you'll want to do next week, lol	[17:59]
jfw:	ah.	[17:59]
diana_coman:	and well, what was missing in this plan too (e.g. writing and #o time)	[17:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: re discarding do note that it should be explicit: those I am deciding I won't do and that's that; sure, you can review the list next week but for now this is what it is.	[18:00]
jfw:	re automating time reporting, the categorizing is what seems to be weak about my current format; many shifts are labeled a bit differently.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: also, if you think that the opportunistic task picking was due more to "oh, shiny" (or similar), you can anyways leave some time in the plan explicitly for unexpected/opportunistic tasks, nothing wrong with that either; but honestly, it looks to me like simply avoiding the ones you didn't actually want to do in the first place.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: so you found that out then and you can therefore standardise your labeling for next week/take care to use the exact same label, shouldn't be that hard either.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: I suppose overall what comes out of this exercise today is in fact that so far you haven't really meant to use the plan & review in any way to inform/support your improvement really; sure, if it "happened to be useful", fine; but otherwise, shrug, just-as-well or something.	[18:05]
diana_coman:	("it can't be useful, it's just bureaucracy!!!")	[18:06]
diana_coman:	(since everyone is super special and flying by the seat of the pants is known to work best, given the amazing pants in question)	[18:06]
jfw:	kind of a vicious cycle, since that ensures it ends up as bureaucracy	[18:08]
diana_coman:	that's true as well, indeed	[18:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: will you share your answer why #4 didn't get done?	[18:09]
diana_coman:	basically bureaucracy is to start with precisely the corruption (by means of "will do in form!!!") of what would be otherwise useful if done competently rather than for the sake of appearances /form only.	[18:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it's obviously a task you dislike a lot, got more or less "convinced" to add to the list as a result of relatives pushing for it but not out of your own decision that yes, you really, actually need it and moreover it turned out/promises to be a huge headache anyway so …	[18:13]
diana_coman:	whether you have therefore a plan B/alternative or you just prefer to bury your head in sand about it is another question though.	[18:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: btw, why was there no progress on 8? no "necessary" at all or what?	[18:14]
jfw:	yeah, the plan B I decided on years ago was "make a buncha money, solves all these problems", but not having done that, need a plan A, heh.	[18:15]
jfw:	ah, re #8 I did give him some further suggestions on how to approach the breakdown of lessons into modules which I believe he found helpful.	[18:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it can always also be "rather die than plan A", or anything else really, sure; basically whenever you don't like a pushed/proposed solution, the way about it is to look at the problem – that doesn't go away but yes, you can choose whatever solution you want for it, just choose it 200\%, explicitly and stick with it, the usual stuff.	[18:17]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it doesn't sound like a lot of necessary indeed; tbh it all adds up to rather weird communications you have there too but anyways, that's certainly outside the scope of this discussion now	[18:18]
jfw:	I'll leave reporting on his status to him for now.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: just one more thing: there's a discussion answering your question in chan, you should add it there	[18:19]
jfw:	ah yes.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: and certainly re reporting, there's no point to indirect reporting anyway; the above was re jwrd (and still outside of scope so yeah, nothing on it now).	[18:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: anyways, will you write up and publish then today the review and plan based on the discussion above?	[18:21]
jfw:	I will.	[18:21]
jfw:	thank you	[18:21]
diana_coman:	does it give you a clear enough pattern for Friday?	[18:21]
diana_coman:	jfw: you're welcome.	[18:21]
jfw:	I suspect I'll get similar non-answers when asking myself things as when you ask them, but I can at least ask.	[18:23]
jfw:	but yes the pattern is clear	[18:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: so you'll publish the non answers and I'll laugh at it, what	[18:24]
jfw:	:)	[18:25]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow	[18:26]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/04/the-crowd-rejoices-as-pastor-who-decried-hysteria-dies-after-attending-mardi-gras/ << whaack — The crowd rejoices as Pastor who decried 'hysteria' dies after attending Mardi Gras	[19:47]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/si-cum-mai-e-prin-carantinia/ << Trilema — Si, cum mai e prin Carantinia ?	[20:59]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I'll still be around.	[22:04]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 12 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:32 am

diana_coman:	!!up lru	[09:24]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[09:24]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia lru	[09:24]
deedbot:	lru voiced for 30 minutes.	[09:24]
diana_coman:	hello lru , what brings you here?	[09:24]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I don't have anything for today's standing meeting. I do want to acknowledge that I owe you a response on my review; I'll do that by tonight.	[15:46]
lobbes:	will bbl	[15:46]
diana_coman:	lobbes: works, no worries.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow	[16:29]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/today-in-our-cultural-history-of-internet-marketing-choim-757-class-the-tube-site-before-the-tube-site-or-whats-a-tgp/ << Trilema — Today in our Cultural History of Internet Marketing (CHoIM-757) class : The tube site before the tube site, or what's a TGP ?	[17:16]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-11-Apr-2020#1024113 << fixed!	[20:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-11 15:34:59 diana_coman: trinque: the !!down seems to not work?	[20:07]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 11 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:22 am

feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/on-computers << The Tar Pit — On computers	[07:09]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/11/the-velvety-bloodsucker-the-twinheaded-dandy-and-other-euloran-hopefuls/ << Ossa Sepia — The Velvety Bloodsucker, the Twinheaded Dandy and Other Euloran Hopefuls	[13:11]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/preliminary-report-on-the-bitcoind-hex-conversion-mess/ << Fixpoint — Preliminary report on the bitcoind hex conversion mess	[14:08]
diana_coman:	!!up cruciform	[15:33]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[15:33]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[15:33]
deedbot:	cruciform voiced for 30 minutes.	[15:33]
cruciform:	diana_coman, hi! couldn't !!up via deedbot	[15:33]
diana_coman:	cruciform: did you go !!up #ossasepia ?	[15:33]
diana_coman:	it needs the chan name now	[15:33]
cruciform:	ah, that'll be it	[15:34]
diana_coman:	try it again	[15:34]
diana_coman:	!!down #ossasepia cruciform	[15:34]
diana_coman:	hm, no?	[15:34]
diana_coman:	lolz	[15:34]
diana_coman:	!!help	[15:34]
deedbot:	http://deedbot.org/help.html	[15:34]
diana_coman:	trinque: the !!down seems to not work?	[15:34]
cruciform:	diana_coman, are you well? I finally started feeling better yesterday – just waiting on my sense of smell to return :p	[15:37]
diana_coman:	cruciform: I'm all right, thank you; and glad to hear you got better then, I gather you caught the virus in fashion there	[15:38]
cruciform:	diana_coman, yea – not the most pleasant thing, but not sure why the whole economy needs shutting down over it	[15:39]
diana_coman:	eh, the "over it" is because there had to be a reason given, lol.	[15:40]
cruciform:	I suppose ya gotta have a pretext to run the money printers	[15:41]
cruciform:	at any rate, olfaction isn't necessary for getting work done, so I guess I'll get to it starting tomorrow	[15:43]
diana_coman:	cruciform: sounds reasonable; who wants to sniff work all that much anyway	[15:44]
cruciform:	diana_coman, lol, yes – making my way through all the bad coffee and nasty tinned stuff I stockpiled, before I can taste it	[15:45]
diana_coman:	cruciform: lol! did they run otherwise out of nasty stuff? or why stockpile on the nasty stuff in the first place? sounds rather masochistic to me	[15:48]
diana_coman:	how does the thinking go – what if I don't get the chance of tasting nasty tinned stuff anymore? lolz	[15:49]
cruciform:	yea, all they had left was nasty tomatoed mackerel – I'd figured it best to be safe after reading Taleb's twitter	[15:53]
diana_coman:	o.O what did taleb twitter?	[15:53]
diana_coman:	admits to not follow twitter at all.	[15:54]
cruciform:	he seems to think the virus is worth taking seriously – precautionary principle, and all that	[15:54]
diana_coman:	cruciform: perhaps for him it's worth taking seriously (or at least twitting to take it seriously); that doesn't directly translate to much for you/someone else like that though	[15:55]
diana_coman:	anyways, you have now a great article you could write – on the tomatoed mackerel effect (or similar).	[15:56]
cruciform:	what do you mean that it doesn't translate to me?	[15:58]
diana_coman:	cruciform: if A says that B is worth taking seriously, that comes with "for A, B is worth taking seriously"; now whether it's ALSO worth taking seriously by a C is a matter for C to decide and it's not always "if for A, then for C too"	[16:00]
diana_coman:	kind of doubts Taleb ended up eating nasty tinned tomatoed mackerel too, lolz.	[16:01]
cruciform:	ah, Wittgenstein's Ruler – Taleb'd approve :)	[16:01]
cruciform:	diana_coman, it's also very possible I caught the damn thing while shopping for said tomatoed nastiness, too	[16:02]
diana_coman:	eh, approvals and disapprovals – I have a full collection of both and they both do still 0 for me.	[16:03]
diana_coman:	ahahaha, now that is basically perfect lesson	[16:03]
diana_coman:	cruciform: try !!up yourself and complain in pm if it's still not working	[16:04]
diana_coman:	!!reputation cruciform	[16:05]
deedbot:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ZCNF	[16:05]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform	[16:06]
deedbot:	cruciform voiced for 30 minutes.	[16:06]
diana_coman:	trinque: can you clarify the rules that deedbot follows currently when deciding whether someone can !!up themselves or not?	[16:07]
cruciform:	diana_coman, regarding dis/approvals – isn't that essentially the WoT? I suppose I've built up an implied trust for Taleb	[16:07]
diana_coman:	cruciform: there are at least two layers to it at the very least, first of all trust is one thing, seeking approval is an entirely different thing; second, trusting what one says does not mean that you don't reason what the implications of it are in your own context.	[16:08]
cruciform:	to the second point: that's something I frequently derp over	[16:12]
diana_coman:	what can I say, I kind of always erred on the side of – might make my own mistakes but at least they are my OWN ffs.	[16:15]
trinque:	diana_coman: not sure why !!down didn't work. I'll take a look.	[16:15]
trinque:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=He3f << here's the good-standing-p func, which I altered with the thresholds we discussed previously	[16:17]
trinque:	"lord" here means folks in your l1	[16:17]
trinque:	did somebody have trouble using !!up ?	[16:17]
diana_coman:	trinque: cruciform says he tried !!up #ossasepia cruciform and deedbot still said he could not up himself; he has a rating of 1 from me; is that not enough for him to up himself?	[16:18]
trinque:	yes, not enough per lemme find the thread	[16:19]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, I thought !!up self is different from !!up others, hm.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	goes to re-read the orig spec on trilema too	[16:21]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022832	[16:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 11:11:16 diana_coman: trinque: all right; I'll take your word for it then and therefore subscribe to your deedbot service; can it be made so that it allows self-voice in #ossasepia to those in my L1 with ratings > 2?	[16:21]
diana_coman:	ah, right you are	[16:22]
trinque:	at any rate, if you'd like to let folks with a 1 self-voice, I have no problem with that either.	[16:22]
trinque:	and I did find the problem with !!down already, so that'll be fixed sometime this afternoon.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: yeah, self-voice for folks with a 1 is good; sorry for messing you about there.	[16:25]
trinque:	nbd	[16:25]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-10-Apr-2020#1024077 – sounds good, and indeed like very little needs to move, merely web-admin UI dropped. I seem to recall seeing cases where a bunch of settings were crammed into one record by serialization; would make sense to fix those for the sanity of manipulation through SQL.	[16:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-10 06:35:43 diana_coman: jfw: in short, no, I am not pushing for some db-extremism, everything lives in the db, db config itself and circular definitions be damned; I am however pushing for keeping configs to a minimum, for moving indeed ALL content (that includes the blog title and the tagline(s), ffs!) and for NOT carrying blindly over "knobs and settings" just because "users are used to them".	[16:29]

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#ossasepia Logs for 10 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:12 am

diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024066 – heh, for fun and all that, I saw both approaches taken to the extreme indeed ("all in db!!" "all on disk!!"); extremes are extremes after all.	[06:28]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 17:57:03 trinque: I worked for a guy once that very much did believe everything was better off living in the database, including all that.	[06:28]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024061 – jfw, note that billymg brought up the things that are accessible/changeable currently via the UI, under Settings; and I went and looked there yesterday – there are things such as blog title, tagline, date and time format	[06:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 17:40:05 jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023964 – this is true of course, "it's all just a bunch of ones and zeros anyway!" but I argue there is a meaningful distinction, similar to "code vs. data" even though code is a kind of data, and whether or not correctly realized as filesystem vs sql. Perhaps better put as presentation vs. content.	[06:29]
diana_coman:	otoh looking at the current wp-config.php, it's short and sweet, with a bunch of configs for WordPress to know where & what db it's meant to use; which yes, it's where it should be and fine as it is but I do NOT want to have in there now crammed all the obscurantist knobs from settings, no	[06:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: in short, no, I am not pushing for some db-extremism, everything lives in the db, db config itself and circular definitions be damned; I am however pushing for keeping configs to a minimum, for moving indeed ALL content (that includes the blog title and the tagline(s), ffs!) and for NOT carrying blindly over "knobs and settings" just because "users are used to them".	[06:35]
diana_coman:	for moving indeed ALL content to the DB*	[06:38]
diana_coman:	(in principle I wouldn't even mind it all that much to move it instead all to the filesystem – the point is all in ONE place – but there are some advantages to choosing db over filesystem, at least currently so I'd stick with moving it all to the db)	[06:39]
feedbot:	http://bvt-trace.net/2020/04/vsh-parts-67-handling-orphans-and-updated-keccak/ << bvt's backtrace — v.sh parts 6&7: handling orphans and updated Keccak	[14:08]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/erik-and-other-stories/ << Trilema — Erik and other stories	[15:08]
diana_coman:	sonofawitch is my experimental bot in ~140 lines of code total (and no shitty flasks and whatnots); I'll let it hang around to see how it behaves; feel free to poke it I guess.	[16:17]
diana_coman:	(it shouldn't reply to any pokings)	[16:17]
trinque:	interesting! diana_coman written in what?	[16:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: gawk	[16:22]
trinque:	sonofawitch indeed lol	[16:22]
diana_coman:	runs on old 1.3 of centos 6 extraction	[16:22]
trinque:	would be interested to see this wonder	[16:22]
trinque:	what's opening sockets for it, netcat?	[16:23]
trinque:	or can gawk do this itself?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: https://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/gawkinet/gawkinet.html#TCP-Connecting	[16:23]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow	[16:37]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/il-divo/ << Trilema — Il Divo	[17:16]
feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/the-missing-adacore-public-download-index-vintage-2018-while-it-lasts/ << Fixpoint — The missing Adacore public download index, vintage 2018, while it lasts	[18:38]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/idiocracy-the-movie-or-marion-tenailleau-is-a-stupid-cunt/ << Trilema — Idiocracy the movie, or Marion Tenailleau is a stupid cunt.	[23:03]

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#ossasepia Logs for 09 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 12:02 am

diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023954 – perhaps/possibly some custom php functions otherwise but that's about it indeed; (my theme is exactly that, the css + a custom function).	[04:49]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-08 20:27:37 trinque: I'm pretty skeptical that there's any need for theming other than custom css.	[04:49]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023938 – heh, files are just db-on-disk and "config data" is still…data.	[04:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-08 18:20:51 jfw: personally I'd prefer more config through… config files, and leave the database for… data! hence my suggesting a wp-config.php variable. it'd be a question of whether one cares about admin GUIs.	[04:50]
diana_coman:	the trouble with having the flags/options/configs/whatevers on disk instead of in db is that you have to further back those up separately.	[04:52]
billymg:	hi diana_coman	[14:56]
billymg:	hmm, i see your point re: config file vs. db, though i don't thinking having to backup one config file, wp-config.php, is too much to ask (especially since users are likely backing this up already as it contains the db config)	[14:59]
billymg:	s/thinking/think	[15:00]
billymg:	and the advantage of consolidating config into wp-config.php is that you no longer need the gui and mysql code to support updating the config data in the db	[15:03]
billymg:	though to be fair this is not a lot of code, just a few html inputs and sql queries	[15:04]
trinque:	billymg: but don't you have to justify to yourself two places to express the same thing?	[15:11]
trinque:	even if pratically you don't take it on right now, which I'd understand	[15:12]
trinque:	everything in the V tree of life ought to be grinding towards "there is one truth" or otherwise it frays out into meaningless hell	[15:13]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023972 << so if there is to be one place instead of two then to me it seems wp-config.php would be that place, since it contains the db config itself and therefore can't be moved into the db	[15:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 15:11:48 trinque: billymg: but don't you have to justify to yourself two places to express the same thing?	[15:26]
diana_coman:	billymg: it's not at all (nor can it ever be) about whether it's "too much to ask" or not, ugh.	[15:32]
diana_coman:	for one thing that sort of "justification" is a slippery slope (when and what exactly and by whom is to be deemed "too much"?)	[15:32]
diana_coman:	and for another thing, even more importantly, the question is whether it's the correct thing to do, not whether someone finds it too much or too little; the point re backups was not because of the difficulty of backing up files on disk too, lol	[15:34]
diana_coman:	pretty much as trinque says, the question there is what justifies 2 places instead of 1 for the same thing.	[15:35]
diana_coman:	billymg: also, I don't get what has the UI to do with this? mysql sure, but that is needed for as long as the database is in use so hardly anything added.	[15:36]
billymg:	diana_coman: ok, i understand your and trinque's point about it being about which is the right thing, and not about saving some time, or some code, or being "too inconvenient" or whatever else	[15:37]
billymg:	diana_coman: the UI for the inputs that fire off the queries to update the configs in the db, which i admit is about "convenience" since one can always open mysql and execute the queries themselves	[15:40]
diana_coman:	billymg: I wasn't even quite aware that existed really since I always use mysql, yes	[15:40]
diana_coman:	billymg: who wants to have that can add it to their own installation presumably, not an issue as such	[15:41]
diana_coman:	and/or even maintain a branch with it, sure	[15:41]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023984 << aha, this i was not aware of	[15:43]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 15:40:37 diana_coman: billymg: I wasn't even quite aware that existed really since I always use mysql, yes	[15:43]
billymg:	diana_coman: is your workflow the same for any mp-wp config (i.e. everything in the wp-admin UI under "Settings" in the left-hand nav)?	[15:43]
diana_coman:	billymg: that q doesn't quite parse for me – what do you mean?	[15:45]
billymg:	i mean, let's say you go to update your date format, or tagline, or comment moderation rules.. do you open mysql and edit the db directly, or check the boxes in the wp-admin UI and click "save changes"?	[15:47]
diana_coman:	billymg: hm, you know I ~never needed to update those? lolz; I tend to do it at install time via mysql and then let it be	[15:47]
billymg:	diana_coman: sure, so they're rarely ever altered, but it sounds like when you do set them, it's via mysql and not the UI	[15:48]
diana_coman:	that's a bit part of the issue there really – most of those are not all that useful knobs to start with, they are in fact circumventing-having-to-know knobs, pretty much	[15:49]
diana_coman:	billymg: indeed.	[15:49]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023985 << this is where i think i'm struggling at the moment. initially this was my thought as well, but jfw made the point that as maintainer of the "base" branch (or whatever) i should aim to minimize friction for others following the branch	[15:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 15:41:14 diana_coman: billymg: who wants to have that can add it to their own installation presumably, not an issue as such	[15:51]
diana_coman:	billymg: but again, one person's workflow is not really the way to decide on what's the right thing to have.	[15:51]
diana_coman:	I suppose I'll call those obscurantist-knobs, lol	[15:51]
diana_coman:	billymg: he has a point but I doubt that has to do with "add any functionality someone wants", hm	[15:52]
diana_coman:	because that anyway doesn't scale	[15:52]
billymg:	> they are in fact circumventing-having-to-know knobs << i'm not sure i understand this description, what does the user avoid having to know by having these knobs?	[15:53]
diana_coman:	billymg: mysql and the db structure	[15:53]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, i see, in as far as those knobs are part of the db structure in the first place (and not hardcoded to a sane default, for example)	[15:55]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024001 << right, so i feel i'm back to wearing my product designer hat and asking "what gets included as standard, what is included as an option, and what is excluded?"	[15:58]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 15:52:33 diana_coman: because that anyway doesn't scale	[15:58]
diana_coman:	billymg: the way I see "minimise friction", it means a. talk to people using/maintaining it – but this means literally keep them in the loop and weighing in, don't surprise them mainly b. provide the sanest set of default working structure basically	[16:02]
diana_coman:	perhaps add c. aim to isolate the core so that maintaining a branch doesn't involve a lot of intricate regrinds, merely a move this on top of that or the other manifest file	[16:03]
diana_coman:	ie make regrinds as painless as they can be, perhaps.	[16:03]
billymg:	diana_coman: a. was my conclusion as well http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024001	[16:04]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 15:52:33 diana_coman: because that anyway doesn't scale	[16:04]
billymg:	diana_coman: c. i like a lot in theory lol	[16:04]
diana_coman:	well, it's ~all theory so far since not much experience with V-maintainers as such, anyway	[16:04]
diana_coman:	anyways, jfw, do you care to go into more detail on what you see as approach to minimise friction with maintainers?	[16:06]
billymg:	diana_coman: so what i used to do in saltmines when faced with a problem like this was put together a "user research" plan. it might consist of user interviews, a survey/questionnaire, shadowing (i.e. watching the operator perform normal tasks with the software)	[16:07]
billymg:	diana_coman: i think it might be useful if i put together a list of questions (not many, likely less than ten) for mp-wp users so that i can gain a better understanding of how everyone uses it	[16:08]
diana_coman:	billymg: yeah, I know the full set of user interface design tools and approaches and everything (did several reviews of that area at various times too, fwiw)	[16:08]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, cool!	[16:09]
diana_coman:	billymg: yeah, except mhm, are you aiming to minimise friction with people's existing habits ? ie if someone says they use it on Windows, you'll support that ?	[16:09]
billymg:	yeah, because currently i only know well how i use it, and only bits and pieces of how others use it	[16:10]
billymg:	diana_coman: if 9/10 users here used windows then yeah (or at that point just give up on the project lol)	[16:11]
diana_coman:	billymg: that doesn't sound very sane to me really.	[16:11]
billymg:	perhaps not solely the \% of users, but who those users are then?	[16:11]
diana_coman:	ie you are saying there that you are stuck supporting bad habits just because they are spread widely enough, right?	[16:12]
billymg:	diana_coman: hrm, good point. i defaulted to putting myself in the helpless position	[16:12]
diana_coman:	to my mind the more important part is understanding (possibly better than users, yes!) what the software is meant to solve (and what NOT, ie scope!) and what's the most effective way to do that and nothing else	[16:13]
diana_coman:	ie make the trunk of mpwp so that I'm 2x more productive using it than whatever entrenched habits I might have, and I'll change the darned habits already	[16:14]
billymg:	diana_coman: no argument there, that's certainly the highest goal a designer can aim to achieve	[16:15]
diana_coman:	billymg: btw, all those shadowing and watching users and so on, I always took to be more about figuring out the actual requirements ie what the users are trying to achieve, not what habits they have	[16:15]
billymg:	diana_coman: yes, exactly	[16:15]
billymg:	diana_coman: you see that all these disparate users have cobbled together the same set of scripts to solve X because your product doesn't and you then build it in for them	[16:16]
diana_coman:	(that being said, I still feel a bit sick with all the recollection of that area, lol)	[16:17]
billymg:	haha, apologies, it was my life for a long period of time (i do believe the fundamentals useful though, as we're discussing now)	[16:17]
diana_coman:	billymg: heh, no worries; my trouble with it is more that it's very limited and overall unclear if it's worth it really (ie you can get what they already do, but not what nobody even thought of yet, pretty much)	[16:19]
diana_coman:	and iirc some could get very bureaucratic and detailed and all that, ugh	[16:20]
billymg:	diana_coman: aha	[16:20]
diana_coman:	I see its point esp when no domain knowledge otherwise, sure; but kind of …insufficient I'd say; better than nothing but not going too far just by itself, that's all.	[16:20]
billymg:	diana_coman: yeah, the "what nobody has thought of yet" never came from "process" but rather from tuned in individual who internally synthesized enough of the research output	[16:21]
billymg:	and was then able to describe and promote (re: "sell") their vision	[16:22]
diana_coman:	that's pretty much part of "own it", too, the way I see it.	[16:22]
billymg:	diana_coman: indeed, yes, that makes sense	[16:24]
diana_coman:	and you know, if you spend time on it anyway, I'd say it's the only way in which that time spent is justified, too; not an empty "did lots of work on it", nor "bent to each and every user's whims and habits" but a very obvious "got to understand the problem way better than anyone else and therefore I have now better solutions than anyone else, too"	[16:25]
diana_coman:	that being said, feel free to ask anything re use of mpwp, sure, I don't mind any questions on that, why would I mind them anyway	[16:25]
jfw:	Got an article in the works here, I thought it was going to be a quick thing showing some code and results but turns out to be 800 words and counting.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, not-bad; I was just noticing in fact that your plan didn't mention any articles/writing as such, glad to hear it's just so-usual-it's-not-even-mentioned-in-the-plan-anymore !	[16:28]
jfw:	just gotta make the not-writing less usual is all!	[16:29]
diana_coman:	ahaha, maybe set it strictly in the plan, if it helps? "plan sez must-not-write-today therefore WILL WRITE" ?	[16:30]
jfw:	nearly snorts coffee	[16:30]
diana_coman:	plans and antiplans, what; (who said it all needs to be that serious anyway)	[16:32]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024043 << sounds good, i'll put something together then	[16:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 16:25:44 diana_coman: that being said, feel free to ask anything re use of mpwp, sure, I don't mind any questions on that, why would I mind them anyway	[16:45]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023640 – it's okay, thanks. for now, better than panama city. their curfew/quarantine is one of the strictest : men are restricted to 2 hrs/day based on cedula number monday, wednesday and friday and women same tuesday, thursday, saturday – everyone off the streets sunday !	[17:03]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 15:12:42 whaack: dorion and jfw: How is it going bunkered up with the family? It is sad to say that had the recent shennanagins not been going on, we would likely be meeting for a drink today. I hope you two are able to make it back shortly, and when you do you should pay a visit to billymg and me. We've had success mixing different fruit with rum.	[17:03]
diana_coman:	ahahaha, that's communist traffic style (cars with odd number licence plates can travel on some days, those with even numbers on different days).	[17:07]
diana_coman:	but seriously, that sort of thing is not out of nowhere ie it's not like they are sane otherwise, only now discovered such bright ideas.	[17:08]
jfw:	after all, no one car matters more than any other.	[17:08]
whaack:	CR is doing the only certain plates on certain day thing atm	[17:13]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1024014 – context was what do users of V software do if they want to make small tweaks to their own copies?. For things that necessarily vary between installations, such as theming (and content too! seems obvious that belongs in the database, but one	[17:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 16:06:50 diana_coman: anyways, jfw, do you care to go into more detail on what you see as approach to minimise friction with maintainers?	[17:25]
jfw:	could imagine doing it in V), making the tweaks possible without having to branch the v-tree is a way to reduce friction of following a maintainer's branch. If on the other hand it's a thing that doesn't justify the cost of optionality, maybe one shouldn't be doing those local tweaks to begin with.	[17:25]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023964 – this is true of course, "it's all just a bunch of ones and zeros anyway!" but I argue there is a meaningful distinction, similar to "code vs. data" even though code is a kind of data, and whether or not correctly realized as filesystem vs sql. Perhaps better put as presentation vs. content.	[17:40]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 04:50:30 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023938 – heh, files are just db-on-disk and "config data" is still…data.	[17:40]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/22/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Apr-2020#1023966 – does this generalize to apache/mysql/php configs and logs?	[17:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-09 04:52:30 diana_coman: the trouble with having the flags/options/configs/whatevers on disk instead of in db is that you have to further back those up separately.	[17:45]
trinque:	jfw: heh, you might be amused at how far I took that question once upon a time.	[17:56]
trinque:	I worked for a guy once that very much did believe everything was better off living in the database, including all that.	[17:57]
trinque:	pragmatism might want to drag consistency in the other direction though, towards files	[17:57]
trinque:	back on the lulz for a sec, this did yes involve both postgresql and FUSE	[17:58]
trinque:	total madness.	[17:58]
jfw:	lol! imagining now the bootloader since ofc the postgres binary needs to live there too	[18:31]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/the-kids-know-words-or-the-post-lulz-festival-of-pointless-imbecility/ << Trilema — The kids know words, or The post-lulz festival of pointless imbecility	[19:57]

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April 21, 2020

#ossasepia Logs for 08 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:52 pm

diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Apr-2020#1023870 – hopefully none other are missing then, lolz.	[04:39]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-07 18:23:35 jfw: diana_coman: I got the missing tarballs from asciilifeform btw. (thread)	[04:39]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Apr-2020#1023859 << incidentally I'm engaged in a decrufting of the gcc script ave1 found and modified to support musl.	[12:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-07 16:55:08 billymg: diana_coman: ah, gotcha. i can't say for sure if i'm most familiar with the codebase, my changes/contributions so far have been targeted and the codebase is rather large, however…	[12:06]
trinque:	for the very same reason.	[12:06]
trinque:	the thing was in such a terrible state I'll write on just how terrible and why when I'm done, but the summary is yes, maximal optionality at the expense of… being civilized, really.	[12:07]
trinque:	that was not strictly speaking ave1's doing; it was in that state before him.	[12:07]
trinque:	but I spent about an hour trying to get the thing to spit out a static gcc (which it wasn't) rather than a dynamically linked gcc (which can only emit static build products)	[12:09]
trinque:	and then I said fuck it all, thanks for the list of dependencies, and started over.	[12:09]
trinque:	there's a psychological element of it, in that the original author was not making the thing "easier to use". he was autistically listing all the things he knew, because he's a very smart boy.	[12:12]
trinque:	billymg: if I'm reading correctly the idea is to put your item in an existing plugin, and later get rid of the plugin mechanism?	[12:20]
trinque:	seems a sane progression, sure	[12:20]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/qntra-sqntr-closing-statement/ << Trilema — Qntra (S.QNTR) Closing Statement	[13:13]
diana_coman:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/06/jfw-plan-week-of-6-apr-2020/#comment-625 – jfw, that's at least an interesting question; as usual though, I'd say the evaluation starts not from imagined benefits but from very real and concrete costs (of keeping it private); for one thing, if I understand correctly that you do make that available to your clients, then how exactly are you going to keep it private ?	[16:12]
diana_coman:	what, you make them sign papers and then chase the leak or what?	[16:12]
diana_coman:	dorion: the above is supposedly of equal interest to you too.	[16:13]
diana_coman:	whaack: did you figure out if all that data collection thing is of much interest to you or not?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: do I understand correctly that you'd rather drop that plan & review stuff as it's not of much use to you?	[16:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: I don't fancy pushing NDAs and chasing leaks, no.	[16:43]
trinque:	^ great way to buy your lawyer a boat	[16:43]
jfw:	seems like the kind of game that you have to be microsoft to play	[16:44]
trinque:	even them, the windows source code has leaked how many times	[16:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: I'd have thought it obvious too, but the question didn't seem to care about it, lolz.	[16:45]
jfw:	trinque: sure, I imagine the boat floats so long as you can bail faster than the leaks.	[16:45]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I'm going to try to get back on the review and plan horse, but with the turn to the IRL Sunday has become the day I've been getting restless, putting miles on the shoes, and not coming up with much out of it.	[16:47]
diana_coman:	still read that "so long as you can boil faster than the leeks"	[16:47]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: I'd have thought Sundays were supposedly the most nothing-happens-days even at best at times, no?	[16:48]
diana_coman:	I mean I get the restlessness but …	[16:48]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Well, now it's the day when there's some people on the street buying groceries at the feria. It was the boring day when everything was closed.	[16:49]
BingoBoingo:	Now most places are closed every day.	[16:49]
jfw:	diana_coman: what's less obvious to me is whether there's a middle ground between truly secret and actively published by us, that could work at some scale. Because there's value in ready access, which I figure is part of why a central dealer of a product can make a spread even if his counterparts could otherwise trade privately	[16:55]
jfw:	perhaps a closer analogy, sometimes people still buy music even if they can torrent it free, because there's more certainty / consistency	[16:57]
jfw:	one obvious cost of keeping private though is lack of feedback from people here (even if we don't go to the 'open source' notion of 'many eyeballs' materializing from the ether)	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: more to the point the question is what are you selling there exactly? because if you imagine that you are selling the recipe aka the text, the "intellectual property" or similar, then a. you don't have anything worth selling b. you'll play that leeks-for-the-lawyer game.	[17:01]
jfw:	we're selling training, so focus on the active part of that rather than some imagined income from textbook royalties essentially?	[17:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's pretty much how it looks to me, yes.	[17:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure, you can also sell whatever printed copies/nicely set/certified-by-jwrd copies I suppose, not like it's forbidden or not possible (ie re your buying music even if available otherwise for free) but again, there as with the training, you are selling that additional part & guarantee, not the "recipe"	[17:07]
jfw:	diana_coman: alright thanks, would be nice to avoid "semi-private document" dances if indeed there's no benefit. I'll let it simmer and see if further objections come to mind.	[17:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: lol, you are still after the benefits, ok.	[17:09]
jfw:	d'oh.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: I don't know how well you get/are aware of eulora&smg otherwise but in any case, if you want to look at it for this sort of question, what you'd need to look at is ~what's the private part, what are the reasons given for keeping it private and how narrowly/widely is it cut out of the rest otherwise	[17:13]
diana_coman:	but other than that, ~any "must-be-kept-private" is a significant cost the way I see it and one that needs to be justified well to consider taking it on; sure, maybe that's just me, can be.	[17:14]
jfw:	my picture of eulora is that the server internals are kept private because part of the game is exploring to learn what's in the environment and how it responds	[17:16]
diana_coman:	quite, yes.	[17:16]
jfw:	where was it MP wrote that the thing with spam isn't that it pays, but that people imagine it pays because they see others doing it, and so goes the feedback loop. possibly why I imagine that quasi-secrecy can pay.	[17:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: tbh I'd say the benefit is first of all that you can point to it and clearly say "here it is, first time, made by JWRD"; which goes away the moment someone else publishes the paper they got from you, you know?	[17:36]
jfw:	that's a point.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	other than that sure, I can see the usual game with idiots going "oh, but it's public info"; in which case, sure let them see what they can do with the "public info" on their own, that sort of "clients" are going to keep being more trouble than it's worth it as far as I'm concerned; then again, if you want those…	[17:38]
diana_coman:	dorion: what's your view on this secret documentation anyway? (see the thread above)	[17:38]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023882 << that's the general outline, yeah	[17:57]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-08 12:20:02 trinque: billymg: if I'm reading correctly the idea is to put your item in an existing plugin, and later get rid of the plugin mechanism?	[17:57]
billymg:	althoug a recent discussion with jfw has me wondering what level of customization should be available in a project like mp-wp, and how that customization should be handled	[18:03]
billymg:	although*	[18:04]
billymg:	for example: the footnotes plugin allows for the adjustment of some constants to change e.g. the markers from decimal numbres to roman numerals, or the code itself can be modified to alter the generated markup	[18:05]
billymg:	and then there's the example of spyked's use of a markdown plugin for his build	[18:06]
billymg:	i won't get into themes, those to me are 100\% operator owned and meant to be customized wholesale	[18:06]
billymg:	but jfw brought up a good point, that if one needs/wants to customize parts of mp-wp (which seems entirely valid in th case of a blogging platform — it's your site afterall) then it becomes more difficult to pull in new work from another branch	[18:08]
jfw:	the footnote identifier case seems simple: there's already code there for decimal or roman numerals, so unless you get rid of one, the optionality is there.	[18:11]
billymg:	jfw: as in what the constant is set to?	[18:11]
jfw:	however it's implemented, there's a switch that's meant to be operator-exposed.	[18:13]
jfw:	whereas in the case of the footnote delimiters, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957382	[18:15]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-01-27 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957358 << honestly, no. i think the "option" to "pick the special chars" was useful at the onset, when i was figuring out how the world should work, but double-parens is so well established by now, even etymologically! ("every time you go on a tanget, you have to decide — is your paranthetical is simple or double?") that it needn't be misrepresented as an option anymore, a	[18:15]
billymg:	jfw: yes, and in that same thread i described removing the code that writes the options to the db (and exposes them to operator), with the idea that "operator" in this case can edit a constant and doesn't need checkboxes in UI to update db	[18:18]
jfw:	my 'simple' is a bit too simple above: it makes sense for the identifier style to be configurable because experience showed that both styles worked well in different themes.	[18:18]
jfw:	billymg: possibly he didn't realize this was among the db-configured options?	[18:19]
billymg:	yes, possibly	[18:20]
jfw:	personally I'd prefer more config through… config files, and leave the database for… data! hence my suggesting a wp-config.php variable. it'd be a question of whether one cares about admin GUIs.	[18:20]
billymg:	jfw: i agree, i would favor the flags in wp-config.php instead of the db (which then requires the extra db and gui code for adjusting them(	[18:21]
billymg:	jfw: it sounds like i had it wrong with my initial reasoning of "user can edit footnotes.php". yes, user can edit php file, but options/settings/config should be pulled as much as possible into wp-config.php so that when one presses a new patch only one file needs to be edited to restore their customizations	[18:34]
billymg:	and by that logic, this value should perhaps also be pulled into wp-config.php	[18:35]
billymg:	or not, and have users overwrite in theme css	[18:36]
billymg:	but if not that then maybe a flag for whether pre/post identifiers are inside/outside the <a> tag (referencing your tweak for the footnote markers)	[18:37]
billymg:	i'm curious what others think about this list of options from the footnotes plugin: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=XSi4	[18:46]
billymg:	it could be that this whole options map can be set in wp-config.php, and then the plugin would read from what's there and set defaults for missing keys (similar to what it did previously with the database)	[18:48]
billymg:	^ diana_coman whaack trinque spyked BingoBoingo dorion lobbes	[18:54]
jfw:	billymg: could that 670px be done as a percentage of the parent element's width?	[20:18]
trinque:	billymg: I'd say first yes, pull all the optionality dorkitude into one place, but then aggressively prune said optionality.	[20:21]
jfw:	afaik I'm the only one using the pre/post identifier knob for my (i) footnotes, and I'd live without 'em	[20:22]
jfw:	what I like about them is that when pasting you don't end up with wordsi like thisii	[20:25]
trinque:	the roman numeral / digit distinction can just as well be custom css	[20:26]
trinque:	and probably ought	[20:27]
jfw:	bbl	[20:27]
trinque:	I'm pretty skeptical that there's any need for theming other than custom css.	[20:27]
BingoBoingo:	finds the current footnote behavior acceptable	[20:46]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023947 << good point, will set to 100\% and users can always override if they want it something other than the width of their paragraphs	[23:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-08 20:18:02 jfw: billymg: could that 670px be done as a percentage of the parent element's width?	[23:26]
billymg:	trinque: makes sense re: consolidate then prune strategy	[23:28]
billymg:	as for css roman numerals, the footnotes in the <ol> at the bottom of an article are set with css, but the footnotes interspersed in the article text are generated individually, not sure if those can be set via css	[23:32]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Apr-2020#1023954 << i think this is what i'd like to get to eventually as well	[23:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-08 20:27:37 trinque: I'm pretty skeptical that there's any need for theming other than custom css.	[23:33]

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#ossasepia Logs for 07 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:42 pm

feedbot:	http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/selection-and-other-sundries-for-mp-wp/ << Fixpoint — Selection and other sundries for MP-WP	[02:12]
jfw:	billymg: np, and see ^ re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023724 .	[02:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 18:09:23 jfw: billymg: come to think of it I should just blog all my patches; though some are oudated or underinformed there's still some more good stuff. Will do by Monday night but likely sooner.	[02:18]
BingoBoingo:	can confirm flights are still moving cargo.	[03:22]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/07/rmd-weeks-22-and-23-review-and-plan-mar-28th-apr-6th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD weeks 22 and 23 review and plan, Mar 28th-Apr 6th, 2020	[05:29]
billymg:	jfw: comment in your mod queue	[15:26]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Apr-2020#1023817 – billymg, the question is exactly what's the reason for having plugins as separate things to start with; (I get the original idea plug various things here and all that but meanwhile practice looks very different from that hallucination of a plan)	[16:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-06 17:54:56 billymg: diana_coman: the server side selection code works globally when added to the MP-WP-Content-Processing plugin	[16:06]
diana_coman:	I am not necessarily (or not yet, lol) against wp-plugins altogether but I don't yet know exactly in what way is that different	[16:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: did you find all those archives for gnat?	[16:16]
jfw:	diana_coman: not quite; do you have gprbuild-gpl-2017-src.tar.gz and xmlada-gpl-2017-src.tar.gz available?	[16:22]
diana_coman:	probably; I'll have a look.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: yeah, it seems I have them	[16:40]
diana_coman:	I had this summary and info quite clearly saying I even had them, lolz; not that anyone ever read it I suppose; will possibly add the whole set there at some point.	[16:41]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Apr-2020#1023836 << i agree that "plugins" (as a framework for handling random drive-by additions from people outside of the wot) doesn't make sense in mp-wp, something i understood even more clearly after mp explained why the the code embed code should live inside the existing (footnotes) plugin rather than making a new one	[16:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-07 16:06:13 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Apr-2020#1023817 – billymg, the question is exactly what's the reason for having plugins as separate things to start with; (I get the original idea plug various things here and all that but meanwhile practice looks very different from that hallucination of a plan)	[16:45]
billymg:	so currently i'm using "mp-wp-content-processing" plugin as a centralized place for content processing within the mp-wp codebase, not as a dumping ground for future "plugins	[16:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: seems I wasn't explicit enough with my actual question which was, would you mind making the tarballs available to me? Though it's still useful to know that at least somebody has them, yes.	[16:48]
billymg:	longer term this can also go away, and what is now in the "plugins	[16:48]
billymg:	"	[16:48]
diana_coman:	billymg: do you have any sort of rough map of the mp-wp codebase otherwise?	[16:48]
billymg:	lifecylce can be moved into a more fixed(?) part of the code	[16:48]
diana_coman:	billymg: aha, I rather suspect it will; but I admit that I'm only vaguely aware of the whole mpwp codebase, can't be of much help there	[16:49]
diana_coman:	or at least not atm	[16:49]
billymg:	i.e. put it in plugins now because that makes more sense than the individual theme level, but eventually that one plugin becomes woven into the rest of the codebase	[16:49]
diana_coman:	billymg: since you are the one most familiar with the whole mp-wp codebase, my question is simply if you consider that the best place for it rather than simply a convenient place, that's pretty much it so far.	[16:50]
billymg:	diana_coman: no, i do not currently have a design diagram / map of any kind, though this would be useful imo and i suspect i will get there eventually	[16:50]
diana_coman:	aha, ok.	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: do you have a full list of all archives ? because if I spend the time to add them there, it makes exactly 0 sense to put only those 2 that happened to be difficult to find atm.	[16:53]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, gotcha. i can't say for sure if i'm most familiar with the codebase, my changes/contributions so far have been targeted and the codebase is rather large, however…	[16:55]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-01 billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958703 << i have a strong feeling the reason it's not this, and the reason the mp-wp genesis is 7x the size of trb genesis by LOC, is because it was designed by the "no one user matters more than another" crowd	[16:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: I can readily make such a list, with caveat that I haven't yet tested the recipe (perhaps this idea that I could get the deps assembled while the getting was good then schedule the build experimenting for later doesn't actually work)	[16:55]
billymg:	i do think that in the current state, where content is processed to extract and markup footnotes and code embeds, that file makes the most sense for adding code to process content to add markup for selections	[16:56]
billymg:	and the benefit of keeping this content processing/markup code in one place will make it easier later when we rip out the plugins framework in favor of adding these features in a more fixed way	[16:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, shitgnomes since March last year in there at least so dunno about the getting was good but whatevers; I guess I'll just upload then whatever I conveniently find and that will be that.	[16:57]
billymg:	s/place will/place is that it will/	[16:58]
diana_coman:	billymg: makes sense; perhaps trinque might want to weigh in on this too; from my point of view atm I don't have anything specifically against it.	[16:58]
billymg:	diana_coman: ok, sounds good	[16:59]
jfw:	diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wLE8 is what I assembled so far with keccak sums which should be everything but the mentioned gprbuild and xmlada. And yeah, should have done this in 2018.	[17:01]
whaack:	I didn't renew my domain name and so ztkfg.com got routed to a placeholder page; the issue is now addressed. can be added to the hosts file for while the DNS update propagates.	[17:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: I got the missing tarballs from asciilifeform btw. (thread)	[18:23]
ossabot:	(trinque) 2020-04-06 asciilifeform: jfw: i posted my copy of his dep tarballs	[18:23]

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#ossasepia Logs for 06 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:32 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/06/jfw-review-week-of-30-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 30 Mar 2020	[03:08]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/tales-from-indiana/ << Bimbo Club — Tales from Indiana.	[03:11]
feedbot:	http://bimbo.club/2020/04/memento-mori/ << Bimbo Club — Memento Mori	[03:13]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/06/jfw-plan-week-of-6-apr-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 6 Apr 2020	[03:33]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023718 <– lolz, done! meanwhile /me noticed it wasn't in #spyked either, added it there as well	[05:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 17:54:45 diana_coman: spyked: and now I am already asking for a change to that feed, lolz: would you add to it the feed for billymg.com, please?	[05:10]
diana_coman:	!!up ave1	[05:27]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[05:27]
diana_coman:	ave1: here it's in my wot but I'd have thought you were, hm	[05:27]
diana_coman:	!!reputation ave1	[05:27]
deedbot:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ABKP	[05:27]
diana_coman:	so you are; ave1 did you try to !!up here and it didn't work?	[05:28]
diana_coman:	dorion: what happened to you?	[05:28]
diana_coman:	!!gettrust ave1	[05:29]
deedbot:	L1: 2, L2: 16 by 5 connections.	[05:29]
diana_coman:	ave1: you should be able to voice yourself in here.	[05:29]
diana_coman:	!!up ossasepia ave1	[05:35]
deedbot:	diana_coman may not !!up ave1	[05:35]
diana_coman:	trinque: !	[05:35]
diana_coman:	ave1: I voiced you via chanserv directly	[05:37]
ave1:	Hi diana_coman, with the new deedbot it seems to be connected to a "root" and no longer deedbot. Trinque never rated me (or unrated), so maybe that's why. But then, you did rate me…	[05:37]
diana_coman:	yeah, something seems wrong there; will wait and see what trinque says (after the party,lol); meanwhile anyway you have voice and otherwise ping me if chanserv misbehaves/you get disconnected and I'll voice you again.	[05:39]
diana_coman:	I need to go now for a while, I'll be back later.	[05:39]
ave1:	thx for the voice! I wanted to react to trinques question anyway.	[05:39]
diana_coman:	ave1: please do; and generally, do come around and talk	[05:40]
ave1:	thank you for the invitation	[05:41]
ave1:	As to, http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023743, I have not seen this warning. And I am unsure if this is the real error.	[05:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 19:20:52 trinque: ave1: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wS80 << ever seen that?	[05:42]
ave1:	The whole multi-thread make often puts the original error more up	[05:43]
ave1:	So could you try to build with single worker?	[05:43]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/trilema-altogether-no-longer-showing/ << Trilema — Trilema altogether no longer showing ?	[10:26]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/06/learning-to-smile/ << Ossa Sepia — Learning to Smile	[13:40]
trinque:	ave1: I don't think I updated my own ratings to reflect what I discussed with diana_coman re: rating thresholds for voice	[13:48]
trinque:	I'll address that today; sorry I missed you!	[13:48]
diana_coman:	trinque: why didn't it work for me to !!up him here though? http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Apr-2020#1023781	[14:04]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-06 05:35:32 diana_coman: !!up ossasepia ave1	[14:04]
diana_coman:	rather next log line: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Apr-2020#1023782	[14:04]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-06 05:35:32 deedbot: diana_coman may not !!up ave1	[14:04]
trinque:	missing # on channel	[14:04]
diana_coman:	ah, lol	[14:05]
trinque:	having to name the channel is a pain in the ass anyway, so I'll address that soon.	[14:05]
diana_coman:	!!up ave1	[14:05]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[14:05]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia ave1	[14:05]
deedbot:	ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.	[14:05]
diana_coman:	yeee, indeed	[14:05]
diana_coman:	it is a pain indeed.	[14:05]
trinque:	yup, not too hard to fix	[14:05]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/coffee-and-cigarettes/ << Trilema — Coffee and Cigarettes	[14:32]
diana_coman:	ave1: could it be perhaps that you tried !!up in here without giving the channel name?	[16:18]
diana_coman:	since you say it didn't work in here either and I think it should work based on my rating.	[16:18]
jfw:	Anyone know if I'm doing something wrong with wget here? http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Ktk6 It seems to assume things are HTML when they're not, making a mess of file extensions and recursive link finding.	[17:51]
billymg:	diana_coman: the server side selection code works globally when added to the MP-WP-Content-Processing plugin	[17:54]
billymg:	i.e. above theme-level	[17:55]
billymg:	"plugins" also seems like a reasonable place for it to me	[17:56]
jfw:	ave1: would you mind making available the full set of required tarballs for your GNAT recipes?	[19:22]
jfw:	!!up ave1	[19:22]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[19:22]
jfw:	!!up #ossasepia ave1	[19:22]
deedbot:	ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:22]
jfw:	also welcome back.	[19:23]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/oh-and-by-the-way-are-joyrides-illegal-where-you-live/ << Trilema — Oh and by the way… are joyrides illegal where you live ?	[20:32]
jfw:	billymg: I misspelled </blockquote> on a comment, think you can fix?	[23:12]
billymg:	jfw: fixed	[23:35]
billymg:	jfw: and thank you for looking. i read through the comments and will respond tomorrow morning	[23:58]

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#ossasepia Logs for 05 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:22 pm

diana_coman:	lobbes: if there's something you wanted to discuss today, better now/earlier (or tomorrow at 7pm) as today I won't be around for long.	[16:02]
trinque:	is over here feeding ave1's gcc to itself. appears this hadn't been done yet, as naive attempt breaks.	[16:09]
trinque:	would welcome any insight if he surfaces.	[16:09]
diana_coman:	trinque: dunno if those compilation notes are of any help at all.	[16:11]
diana_coman:	iirc there was previously a successful attempt at feeding it to self but I don't recall any write-up specifically on this,hm; maybe it's mentioned in the logs…	[16:13]
diana_coman:	trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895824	[16:15]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[16:16]
trinque:	ty!	[16:16]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I had nothing for today. Working on my monthly review/plan (I'll address your earlier ping in there too)	[16:28]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 07:43:16 diana_coman: lobbes: what's your plan with the mp-wp log/bot anyway? and in general actually, are you back to saltmine-eating-my-time-wut-can-do?	[16:28]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/05/ejb-review-of-march-2020-plan-for-april-2020/ << Young Hands Club — ejb: Review of March 2020, Plan for April 2020	[21:19]

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#ossasepia Logs for 04 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:11 pm

spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Apr-2020#1023625 <– nah, it's no bother really, it takes a few minutes to update some feeds. so rather I didn't rush to solve a problem that didn't exist	[03:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-03 16:38:29 diana_coman: well, requests for changes are indeed unlikely to come all that often but it's still at best a workaround than a solution and moreover, a rather poor one in that it basically banks on the idea of .. little use of the bot? lolz; not like I mind the operator-maintained version but I'd have thought you rather mind it, tbh; anyways, no rush or anything.	[03:50]
spyked:	but the pseudo-wot/access control/alias thingie (I still don't know how to label it yet, lol) sounds like a pretty quick job, so I'll prolly add it to the bot anyway	[03:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-03 16:30:29 diana_coman: spyked: but is the feed-in-chan a separate/anomaly thing currently, then? basically it needs a sort of alias #ossasepia = diana_coman	[03:51]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023308 – dorion, there's no comment that can possibly take 1 week of being worked on, seriously now.	[04:53]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 16:21:15 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023189 – thanks. I'm giving it a second read now and working on a comment.	[04:53]
diana_coman:	lobbes: what's your plan with the mp-wp log/bot anyway? and in general actually, are you back to saltmine-eating-my-time-wut-can-do?	[04:54]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/04/cyli-nder-and-other-meshes-on-a-stick/ << Ossa Sepia — Cyli N'Der and Other Meshes on a Stick	[10:10]
feedbot:	http://thetarpit.org/2020/life-during-the-time-of-covid-the-great << The Tar Pit — Life during the time of covid the Great	[12:21]
whaack:	diana_coman: Following up on your most recent comment http://ztkfg.com/2020/04/thefleet-next-steps-with-data-collection/#comment-245, I want to make sure I have a few things straight. First, as you said the problem with my article where I posted the raw data was that I did not provide sufficient context. I want to clarify that my understanding that context =/= analysis. My understanding is the	[15:00]
whaack:	context for the data is a description of how the data was collected, and what the data is. The analysis is in practice a visualization of the results of salient queries to the data. At the very least I can publish an article with the results of queries written to answer the "how much activity is where?" question. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023333	[15:00]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 16:29:04 diana_coman: do some proper stats first of all; how many users per logged chan; how many of those said how many lines per interval etc; start with the basic question which was "how much activity is where"	[15:00]
whaack:	dorion and jfw: How is it going bunkered up with the family? It is sad to say that had the recent shennanagins not been going on, we would likely be meeting for a drink today. I hope you two are able to make it back shortly, and when you do you should pay a visit to billymg and me. We've had success mixing different fruit with rum.	[15:12]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-05 23:36:38 whaack: jfw and dorion: i'm booking flights to Panama for April 2nd – April 9th, i hope you two around around then :)	[15:12]
diana_coman:	whaack: context is indeed how and what data was collected from where and under what specific conditions/constraints/known issues.	[16:14]
diana_coman:	data analysis is a tricky one to define generically like that but at this stage it's really a very basic thing, mainly calculating a set of basic stats that can provide some information relevant to the question that started the whole thing: where and how much activity is there	[16:20]
diana_coman:	note that you might still need to do some data cleaning first though, that is usually pre-analysis anyway	[16:20]
diana_coman:	so you will need to actually look at your collection process and at at least some randomly sampled data in more detail	[16:21]
diana_coman:	whaack: re "what analysis", start with the main question and then identify a set of concrete measures that are relevant; talk/ask for feedback on a draft of such list if you aren't sure, not a big issue.	[16:22]
jfw:	whaack: thanks, and I'll certainly go for that visit when I'm able. It's been great here, really; I've been able to work with minimal disruption and not worry too much.	[16:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: why worry anyway?	[16:51]
jfw:	There's chaos afoot for sure for those dependent on the local money-drips, but so far its observable effects on the home have been minimal.	[16:51]
jfw:	diana_coman: you would say that, heh. No point worrying if you won't do anything about it I suppose	[16:52]
jfw:	I hear the government is Doing Something About It though, so no worries indeed!	[16:53]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, now that's something to protect against rather than worry about, lolz	[16:54]
diana_coman:	but yeah, no point nor need nor anything really to worry, it's a sort of …blockage only.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	then again, it's a very cheap "Doing Something About It" too, so possibly why so easily chosen really; (see, the government could also just worry about it in public – it might even be more useful, setting up worry-points for interested people)	[16:58]
diana_coman:	"come here to worry together" ,lolz	[16:58]
jfw:	as far as what to protect against, so the local levels are mostly screaming for everyone 'non-essential' to stay in while vying for federal aid, while the federal level trips over itself to hand that out as fast as it can print	[16:58]
jfw:	so what to do, idk… buy bitcoin?	[16:59]
diana_coman:	ah, so it does the public worry (with the screaming); the printing well, finally found a reason for it, but anyways.	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: now that's a question each gets to answer for themselves; how would I know what makes most sense for you? for all I know – buy yourself caviar with it better; or bitcoin, sure; or smoke it, what.	[17:01]
jfw:	I also gather the left hand is urging people to sew make-believe masks at home while the right hand "pays you a visit" if you're found stockpiling the real thing	[17:01]
diana_coman:	ahahaha	[17:02]
diana_coman:	see, troll them with apparent stockpiles ?	[17:02]
jfw:	ha!	[17:02]
diana_coman:	lots of way more interesting (and enjoyable for that matter) things to do than worrying.	[17:02]
jfw:	supermarkets must be those public worry points, six-foot distances marked out and all	[17:05]
diana_coman:	fwiw I'm quite enjoying the sudden almost ~total quiet (feels like countryside all of a sudden) + all the chirping birds coming over, can't even complain really; had fun discussing the plague in public too (company noted "they are looking at you"; noted back that "well, from 2m what else could they do anyway?"	[17:06]
diana_coman:	jfw: neah, should be made properly, with a big arrow: worry HERE.	[17:08]
jfw:	I take it "they" being people rather than birds – musta been an interesting discussion!	[17:08]
diana_coman:	badges too, I suppose;	[17:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: yeah, people; birds are innocent in this (and rather too busy to stare)	[17:09]
jfw:	if I were way more bored I'd make that sign and arrow and post it in the toilet paper aisle.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, next time you find yourself worrying, make the sign instead!	[17:10]
jfw:	diana_coman: I shall.	[17:11]
jfw:	!!key jfw_unchecked	[17:13]
deedbot:	http://wot.deedbot.org/C3C700B7BDDE000BCBD16BE57E93BD8955C976CE.asc	[17:13]
trinque:	huh, blank eh?	[17:13]
trinque:	will take a look	[17:13]
jfw:	ty trinque. diana_coman: I'll get it on my site too, thanks for noting.	[17:14]
jfw:	trinque: is there a particular update interval for the wot.deedbot www?	[17:16]
trinque:	jfw: iirc it's once per hour, but the keys update immediately when requested	[17:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: np; fwiw in principle getting it from deedbot is preferable to getting it from your site but anyways.	[17:19]
trinque:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ci1q << note that the paste you gave !!register is also empty	[17:19]
trinque:	which is super weird	[17:19]
trinque:	do you recognize that fp?	[17:19]
jfw:	o.O yes it's the correct fp	[17:21]
diana_coman:	trinque: fwiw at least some ratings from 4days ago haven't yet made it on wot.deedbot	[17:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 19:09:57 diana_coman: !!v 76EC35E7E4726FADE9C743B2D1097962734974B08E50572BAE9996C77BEAEC3C	[17:21]
trinque:	diana_coman: looks like I boned up the crontab for that. oughta be up to date in a few minutes.	[17:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, cool; np.	[17:23]
trinque:	still don't know wtf's going on with this other thing	[17:23]
jfw:	one possible weird is there's no subkey on it (doesn't explain the empty paste though)	[17:26]
trinque:	ah empty paste is just the db having been zilched after a reboot (it uses a tempfile) a few days ago, and my not handing back the proper 404 response.	[17:27]
trinque:	jfw: can I get a new paste of that key, and I'll fiddle with this until sorted?	[17:27]
trinque:	I will confirm what ends up on that nick has the fp we expect.	[17:28]
jfw:	trinque: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=-SVW	[17:28]
trinque:	cool ty	[17:29]
jfw:	np.	[17:30]
trinque:	!!key jfw_unchecked	[17:30]
deedbot:	http://wot.deedbot.org/C3C700B7BDDE000BCBD16BE57E93BD8955C976CE.asc	[17:30]
trinque:	k, imported the key manually, which means I probably have a problem with key import at !!register	[17:31]
whaack:	jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023647 good to hear you've been able to concentrate and I look forward to it, however long it takes	[17:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 16:49:32 jfw: whaack: thanks, and I'll certainly go for that visit when I'm able. It's been great here, really; I've been able to work with minimal disruption and not worry too much.	[17:34]
trinque:	hm wacky, can't reproduce it. jfw I wonder if you did that during my server migration, because key import is working fine atm.	[17:37]
billymg:	diana_coman: http://billymg.com/2020/04/updated-patch-code-embed-plugin-for-mp-wp/	[17:41]
diana_coman:	oh hey, looks good, billymg !	[17:43]
billymg:	diana_coman: sorry that it took so long, this past month since moving here has been pretty crazy but i think i'm back to a more normal schedule and state of mind now	[17:44]
diana_coman:	billymg: no worries; what's your plan re mpwp?	[17:45]
billymg:	diana_coman: i'm going to continue on it, i have a clear vision for it in my head and want to see it realized	[17:48]
diana_coman:	billymg: glad to hear it!	[17:49]
billymg:	namely i want to trim it down to 10-20\% of its current size and give it an admin interface that isn't terrible (and terribly ugly)	[17:50]
whaack:	diana_coman: Can you shed some light on how I should clean the data? Currently the sql dump contains logs for channels I partially logged, one idea is to remove those and then also filter out the logs that do not fall within a specific 2 week window	[17:50]
diana_coman:	esp the trim sounds wonderful to me!	[17:50]
diana_coman:	billymg: and feel free to discuss any of it in here if it's any help, ofc.	[17:50]
billymg:	diana_coman: awesome, ty	[17:51]
diana_coman:	whaack: that is more filtering of data than cleaning and yes, if needed, sure; on top of that, there might be borked/bogus data – you don't really want that counted as the rest since well, rubbish in, rubbish out	[17:52]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022914 << trinque, jfw: i'm going to look into this now if no one's already beat me to it	[17:54]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 17:09:37 trinque: jfw: or obviously, just stick in getFooter instead	[17:54]
diana_coman:	spyked: and now I am already asking for a change to that feed, lolz: would you add to it the feed for billymg.com, please?	[17:54]
jfw:	billymg: hey, great to hear you'll continue there, an' I promise not to fragment anything by rewriting the lamp in lisp any time soon, as if I had time, lol	[17:57]
jfw:	and yeah nobody's done anything toward getting the selection code out of the theme – but why don't I paste my particular patch that puts it in the theme in case it's of use.	[18:00]
billymg:	jfw: lol, sounds good. and yeah re: selection-in-theme patch, it would be helpful to see it all in one place at least rather than spread between blog comments and log lines	[18:04]
whaack:	diana_coman: Alright, so to look for borked/bogus data I take a random sample and examine it? For example, should I read the logs of randomly selected channels? I did this before and noticed that messages were missing from a convesation. The reason was the irc protocol is not case sensitive when it comes to channel names, so different clients can use different strings to represent the channel	[18:09]
whaack:	name. (i.e. "#Ossasepia" vs. "#ossasepia") So when you select for a channel you need to make sure you use a query such as "select message from irclog where lower(networkname)='freenode' and lower(target)='#ossasepia'" instead of just "… where networkname='freenode' and target='#ossasepia'"	[18:09]
jfw:	billymg: come to think of it I should just blog all my patches; though some are oudated or underinformed there's still some more good stuff. Will do by Monday night but likely sooner.	[18:09]
trinque:	billymg: sounds good; I haven't touched it	[18:09]
jfw:	whaack: yikes, it didn't occur to me that servers might not normalize channel names when forwarding actually, nice find. IRC case mapping is a pain because those norwegians (or was it finns) originally did it in not-quite-ASCII; some servers indicate their casemapping in the welcome messages but the format of these also isn't standard.	[18:13]
diana_coman:	whaack: well, in practice (like with a lot of things), it can end up with a few iterations too because yes, you'll need to first have at least a look around just to figure out what you have in there but otherwise there might still be problems you notice later – at which point there's no choice than to go back, cleanup, run the stuff again; hence why …make scripts for whatever analysis you do; specifically for the example you gave, …	[18:13]
diana_coman:	… the cleanup would be to make all channel names lower case or something ie to avoid this sort of error; do make any cleanings via scripts too so you can reproduce and otherwise on a copy of the data…	[18:13]
billymg:	jfw: cool, looking forward to it	[18:14]
billymg:	trinque: ack, ty	[18:15]
diana_coman:	whaack: in principle you'd figure out what errors through a combination of methods including at the very least: known issues due to your code/collection method; potential/known issues due to environment (such as the one you noticed, in principle); those observed through initial random sampling and at later stages when there's any anomaly/not fitting	[18:15]
diana_coman:	and that's why usually you'd want to have more than just one measure for any thing – ideally anything you conclude relies on some triangulation of data (among other reasons to stand at least a chance of noticing discrepancies)	[18:17]
whaack:	diana_coman: ack on keeping scripts for everything. The main concern I have is I don't have a great way to verify that my program didn't miss messages. Since I have a VM sitting idle I am going to have it log the same channels as another VM to compare the two DBs for the second batch of logs.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	whaack: basically approach the data like everything else – NOT trusting it, quite the opposite, assuming it's rubbish mostly so trying to find counterevidence for any "finding" it might throw at you; for one thing, given enough data, you can "find" anything if you only…try hard enough (hence the classical lies, big lies and statistics, too)	[18:19]
diana_coman:	whaack: so all that sort of thing should also be written at analysis report time, even if just as such – potential problems/unknown & unchecked issues; for that specific issue I suppose you could in principle look at intervals and all that but it's certainly overkill atm so yeah, write it down as "limitation" and otherwise live with it for this data set, nothing to do about it; (and no, nothing is ever perfect either, so there …	[18:21]
diana_coman:	… should be limitations clearly stated too)	[18:22]
whaack:	diana_coman: alright ty, my path forward is more clear; i'll heavily scrutinize the data.	[18:29]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Apr-2020#1023703 – it was 2020-03-28 02:51:32 UTC.	[18:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-04 17:37:14 trinque: hm wacky, can't reproduce it. jfw I wonder if you did that during my server migration, because key import is working fine atm.	[18:29]
trinque:	yeah, was definitely moving things around throughout that day.	[18:49]
jfw:	trinque: good timing then, since it got me a reminder about assuming a thing worked just because it said it did	[18:52]
trinque:	quis custodiet ipsos custodes	[18:53]
trinque:	ave1: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wS80 << ever seen that?	[19:20]
trinque:	!!up ave1	[19:21]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[19:21]
trinque:	!!up #ossasepia ave1	[19:21]
deedbot:	ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:21]
trinque:	possibly it's cranky about the gnat version I'm using on the host? GNAT 4.9.2	[19:23]
trinque:	ftr yes, has everything to do with that.	[20:05]
trinque:	(which ave1 called out on his blog, thanks!)	[20:05]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/05/wh-review-of-week-25-mar-30th-april-5th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Review of Week 25 (Mar 30th – April 5th)	[21:37]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/yet-i-do-not-repent-me-or-semana-santa-en-costa-rica/ << Trilema — Yet I do not repent me, or Semana Santa en Costa Rica	[22:10]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/04/05/wh-plan-for-week-26-april-6th-april-12th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Plan For Week 26 (April 6th – April 12th)	[22:23]

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#ossasepia Logs for 03 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 11:01 pm

spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Apr-2020#1023573 <– aaand done	[05:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-02 16:35:22 diana_coman: spyked: can I have in #o the article feeds for: younghands.club; ossasepia.com; bingology.net; dorion-mode.com; fixpoint.welshcomputing.com; krankendenken.com; ztkfg.com; trilema.com; thewhet.net; bimbo.club; ave1.org; bvt-trace.net; thetarpit.org	[05:51]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Apr-2020#1023570 <– it occurs to me that maintaining a (per-channel) list of nicks that are allowed to issue commands in-channel wouldn't be too much of a problem, since that doesn't change too often. it'd act like a sort of local wot for the bot too.	[05:53]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-02 16:22:15 diana_coman: !1 list	[05:53]
spyked:	and then e.g. !1 subscribe and !1 unsubscribe would be accessible here too, but only for diana_coman	[05:55]
spyked:	only when called here, it'd update the channel's subscriptions	[05:56]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Apr-2020#1023598 – possibly it's enough to have one person able to do that rather than a whole wot really; otherwise sure, it could work similarly to voice-wot, basically a feeds-wot but it seems overkill to me.	[09:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-03 05:53:50 spyked: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Apr-2020#1023570 <– it occurs to me that maintaining a (per-channel) list of nicks that are allowed to issue commands in-channel wouldn't be too much of a problem, since that doesn't change too often. it'd act like a sort of local wot for the bot too.	[09:45]
spyked:	diana_coman, agreed, no need to overload the implementation with a whole "wot" (unless, arguably, the bot in question is also a mirror of deedbot). the principle however remains there, once the bot makes decisions based on user "ratings" (e.g. diana_coman is the owner of #ossasepia), it's stuck maintaining a (perhaps primitive) version of its wot	[10:55]
feedbot:	http://trilema.com/2020/toxic-feminity/ << Trilema — Toxic feminity	[14:04]
diana_coman:	spyked: hm, I guess I saw it more as a sort of multi-feeds per user; ie not as much that "diana_coman is owner of #ossasepia" but that diana_coman has a feed in pm and another feed in #ossasepia (and possibly whatever, yet another feed in #nosuchchan etc)	[16:13]
diana_coman:	squinting a bit I can kind of see it as a sort of wot too if you take it by location but it doesn't come naturally to me because uhm, what's poor location to do really.	[16:15]
spyked:	hm. could you expand the "by location" bit? I'm not sure what you mean	[16:17]
spyked:	what I meant is that the set of commands you can issue to the bot denote the relationship between you and the bot, as seen from the bot's perspective	[16:18]
spyked:	but yes, there's indeed the added bit "in #ossasepia, #nosuchchan etc." which makes this more of an access control thing, hm.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	spyked: isn't it the same command though?	[16:20]
spyked:	yeah, but the channel's an implicit parameter (much like the "this" in OOP languages)	[16:21]
diana_coman:	spyked: so is the pm if you think of it; it's still in the pm "chan", no?	[16:21]
spyked:	diana_coman: in ircspeak, "channel" denotes the more general "channel of communication between a and b". when you pm the bot, the channel is "diana_coman"	[16:22]
spyked:	when it receives a message from in #ossasepia, the source is still diana_coman, but the channel changes to #ossasepia	[16:22]
spyked:	has to grok this "bot-wot" thing a bit, not claiming it to be the correct model	[16:24]
diana_coman:	hm; you mean that currently bot provides feed to anyone asking in the channel where they are asking while this requires a change of "maintain list of who can change feeds in where"	[16:26]
spyked:	yes, and there's no restriction re. pm 'channel', i.e. if the channel coresponds to the source, the bot will honor commands	[16:30]
diana_coman:	spyked: but is the feed-in-chan a separate/anomaly thing currently, then? basically it needs a sort of alias #ossasepia = diana_coman	[16:30]
diana_coman:	aha, as I was typing ^	[16:30]
diana_coman:	anyway, might require some more thinking, I guess.	[16:32]
spyked:	diana_coman, when I initially wrote the thing, I thought I'd just have feedbot ask deedbot for ratings and only limit access to in-channel commands to #trilema's L1. apparently that's a bit of a hassle, because I couldn't think of a way for feedbot to wait for a response from deedbot that wouldn't add a ton of complexity	[16:33]
spyked:	so I decided to do the operator-maintained version, not like requests for changes come too often	[16:35]
spyked:	bbl	[16:36]
diana_coman:	well, requests for changes are indeed unlikely to come all that often but it's still at best a workaround than a solution and moreover, a rather poor one in that it basically banks on the idea of .. little use of the bot? lolz; not like I mind the operator-maintained version but I'd have thought you rather mind it, tbh; anyways, no rush or anything.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	will be back later	[16:38]
feedbot:	http://ztkfg.com/2020/04/thefleet-next-steps-with-data-collection/ << whaack — TheFleet – Next Steps With Data Collection	[20:15]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 02 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:51 pm

lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-31#1023420 << this is a point. K, I'll get that article out first and we can go from there	[00:35]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-31 07:31:37 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023426 – lobbes, how are those guys in Brasil in the end anyway? there were some reviews/articles you were supposedly writing on shinjiru and on those…	[00:35]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 23:09:28 lobbes: diana_coman: I also wanted to ask you: assuming that I get the mp-wp bot logger thing to the point where you'd want to try it for #ossasepia, would you want to host it on one of your existing boxes or would you want a fresh one?	[00:35]
lobbes:	speaking of articles, I'm going to have to bump my monthly review/plan to this weekend. Saltmine work heating up this week.	[00:35]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Apr-2020#1023557 – bvt fixed that in his work (it uses patches/.. so tab-completable) but at any rate, still easier to fix it (or even workaround it if must) than to go full x11, huh.	[04:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-01 22:35:36 jfw: Another case I catch myself X11 copy/pasting: typing out full vpatch file names (including .vpatch suffix but not patches/ prefix, thus not tab-completable) for v.pl press	[04:51]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Apr-2020#1023561 – you know, this is how it predictably goes in reality each time when "oh, it's better to NOT stick to weekly/shorter interval"; but up to you really.	[04:52]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-02 00:35:45 lobbes: speaking of articles, I'm going to have to bump my monthly review/plan to this weekend. Saltmine work heating up this week.	[04:52]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-02-Apr-2020#1023562 – I don't disagree, at least for a certain view of "easier", but isn't that a comparison of unlike things: the cost or ease of a specific solution for one case with that of a general tool like pasting (which might be more of a workaround or even numbing agent than a solution)	[11:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-04-02 04:51:07 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-01-Apr-2020#1023557 – bvt fixed that in his work (it uses patches/.. so tab-completable) but at any rate, still easier to fix it (or even workaround it if must) than to go full x11, huh.	[11:45]
jfw:	* ?	[11:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: mhm? I was comparing your stated options, not some generics like that, lol; and yes, the pasting in that case sounds more like a workaround than a solution.	[15:47]
diana_coman:	!1 list	[16:22]
diana_coman:	hm, spyked is there a way to get from feedbot the list of feeds for the chan rather than my own?	[16:22]
spyked:	diana_coman, I can grab it for you. one sec	[16:34]
diana_coman:	spyked: can I have in #o the article feeds for: younghands.club; ossasepia.com; bingology.net; dorion-mode.com; fixpoint.welshcomputing.com; krankendenken.com; ztkfg.com; trilema.com; thewhet.net; bimbo.club; ave1.org; bvt-trace.net; thetarpit.org	[16:35]
diana_coman:	spyked: lol, meanwhile I just made the full list	[16:35]
spyked:	oh. ok. as it is, it only has younghands and ossasepia	[16:35]
diana_coman:	and trinque.org	[16:35]
diana_coman:	ofc I forgot one, how else, argh.	[16:36]
spyked:	will make sure tomorrow morning that all of the feeds above are pointed to #ossasepia	[16:37]
diana_coman:	spyked: thank you!	[16:37]
jfw:	diana_coman: seems there's some confusion here with options and generics and comparisons. Not sure if we should drop it or delve.	[16:40]
diana_coman:	jfw: I don't think there's all that much to it to delve really, no worries.	[16:40]
jfw:	cool.	[16:40]
whaack:	trinque: Do you know how long freenode will keep the connection open if you do not send a pong in response to their ping? Am I correct in understanding that freenode will eventually drop a client if it does not perform the ping/pong routine?	[17:16]
jfw:	whaack: you could telnet / netcat to chat.freenode.net 6667 and find out	[17:18]
whaack:	jfw: thank you	[17:20]
jfw:	of course, anything will eventually drop, and especially on freenode	[17:21]
whaack:	hehe	[17:21]
trinque:	whaack: jfw has it on both	[18:10]
whaack:	freenode dropped me in short order (~45 seconds). I'm not sure if I was dropped from the lack of ping/pong or from the lack of identifying with a nick. I don't know how to send an ident message (or any other irc protocol message) through telnet, is it worth figuring out how to do this?	[18:40]
jfw:	you type it and hit enter, lol	[18:45]
jfw:	didn't you read through cl-irc too?	[18:45]
jfw:	I'll give the further hint that you need a NICK and USER message to identify.	[18:54]
whaack:	jfw: thanks. I have barely ever used telnet and wasn't confident I could interact with the server by sending commands by typing in / enter. And I also did not know off the top of my head the routine for identifying (with the NICK and USER message). I read through cl-irc but a while ago and there are many parts that I did not fully digest.	[19:00]
jfw:	whaack: telnet is fun, you can do a number of protocols by hand including smtp and http, really anything oriented around "plain text" lines, depending on the cr/lf style. I highly doubt any server's going to ban your IP for sending invalid commands if that's the worry.	[19:07]
whaack:	jfw: cool, i'll add it to the list of command line tools to learn about / play with	[19:09]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 01 Apr 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:41 pm

bvt:	diana_coman: thanks for the investigation!	[15:35]
diana_coman:	bvt: no worries; and let me know if there's any other weird you notice!	[16:17]
jfw:	bvt, comment in mod queue.	[16:18]
jfw:	diana_coman: thanks for refreshing that genesis/patch distinction. One part I'm not quite following is http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-31-Mar-2020#1023434 , let me see how to put it.	[16:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-31 04:41:08 diana_coman: jfw: basically the cut(s) you propose would be patches /branches (if several cuts are really worth it) on that genesis, to my mind.	[16:33]
jfw:	most Linux distributions (and BSDs too) have taken this dual role of a base system maintained by the distributor, and a sort of glue layer for smoothing over the large differences in third-party software build and installation methods or otherwise adapting it to better fit the goals of the distributor; that is, a ports/portage/package manager of some sort.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	whaack: comment in modq	[16:37]
jfw:	I do not see the scope of Gales Linux to include "maintenance of all software that someone might wish to install on it", but to indeed include smoothing over installation of such to the extent it's needed. Hence the base/ports distinction. An alternative could be "genesis all that third party stuff and do the porting work there"	[16:39]
jfw:	but that to my mind would still be separate trees. If someone needs gcc 6 for the latest c++ standard, I don't see why I must either refuse or impose that whole weight upon all users of the tree.	[16:40]
diana_coman:	jfw: if someone wants gcc6 (or whatevers), that someone can branch your OS tree wherever to add the thing; and then they can maintain that branch, what's the problem exactly?	[16:41]
jfw:	They then need to backport / regrind any other work done on the main branch	[16:42]
diana_coman:	essentially each user maintains their own OS anyway; they can choose to just follow the "branch" of someone (be it yours, it's still a branch) or make their own or whatevers	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes, they need to do exactly that; so what?	[16:42]
diana_coman:	there is a cost to branching, certainly; what's the problem with that again though?	[16:42]
jfw:	Does "an OS" mean all software installed on the machine, in your view?	[16:43]
jfw:	I don't quite see why that cost is necessary.	[16:44]
diana_coman:	tbh I think it's precisely a benefit, not a problem; ie making it clear that bringing in all dead cats one found in the street just because "cute/might meaow better" has a cost + setting that cost precisely on the one bringing them in.	[16:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: how do you see it so that it's "not necessary"?	[16:45]
diana_coman:	and moreover, what is the exact distinction you see between "trunk" and "branch" to start with?	[16:46]
diana_coman:	or whatever, "main branch".	[16:46]
jfw:	Not necessary, because I think it's possible to have stable interfaces such that people developing different programs can do so independently. In Gales this interface is filesystem layout + linux syscalls	[16:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: do you mean there that people can run code without getting it under V?	[16:49]
jfw:	that'd be their choice, nothing in the machine prevents it though.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	sure they can, but a. why would you want to not get it under V b. why is that your concern to start with ie what people might do on their own machine?	[16:51]
diana_coman:	I'm not saying anywhere that you should actively prevent it or anything; people can do whatever they want, stab themselves in the eye as many times as it takes, what.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	and sure, maintain stable interfaces in your distro, why not	[16:52]
jfw:	a. I don't; b. it's not	[16:53]
jfw:	not sure where I said otherwise too	[16:53]
diana_coman:	so then I don't get what was the question/trouble	[16:53]
jfw:	answering re trunk/branch: it's in the mind of the beholder I suppose, but I'd typically see trunk as the more active or central of a number of branches of interest	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: quite in the eye of the beholder and moreover note that it can change + your "more active" evaluation might return something other than someone else's anyway (maybe you don't even consider x,y,z maintainers etc)	[16:56]
diana_coman:	possibly the trouble there is that you are mixing maintainers (ie public vpatches for whatever they are using) with private users (whose whatever they are using you can't see); and you seem to prefer to avoid having to interact too much with maintainers because you perceive it as a cost on them, such interaction; but I think the benefits far outweigh the costs (and not only because of "won't add shit to have more to regrind" but …	[16:58]
diana_coman:	… specifically because it makes sense to talk closely to maintainers, what)	[16:58]
diana_coman:	I suppose there might be a cost perceived on you too there, ie "now I change this and then ~all maintainers will be mad at me for having to regrind" ?	[17:00]
jfw:	either mad, or they simply ignore and the system fragments	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: but a. you talk to them so that they are aware of how great and needed the change you make is for their branch too, right? so: b. if they ignore it because it's not worth it then…it's not worth it, you know? c. if they ignore it because they are idiots/lazy/not maintaining that branch anymore, then they are not worth the trouble and so what	[17:02]
diana_coman:	I don't get that "the system fragments"; it's code and it's there; anyone can take it, change something and it "fragments", no?	[17:03]
diana_coman:	but yes, if you don't want the branches to diverge, you run around and keep everyone in the loop (at least everyone you want in the loop)	[17:04]
diana_coman:	in the process finding both people you want in the loop and otherwise those you don't want in the loop; benefits all around.	[17:04]
jfw:	it's a big change in approach to swallow; I'm pondering.	[17:05]
diana_coman:	well yes, it is a change, certainly, but uhm, what's the point of recreating open source only with some V inconvenience or what, lol	[17:06]
diana_coman:	anyways, no rush, do ponder, do ask & talk, it's all for the best.	[17:06]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's I suppose a stark (and apparently unexpected) part of the point of V – own the damned thing.	[17:09]
diana_coman:	jfw: come to think of it – for as long as there are those stable interfaces, wouldn't it work perfectly fine anyway for maintainers to keep if they so wish the thing as a separate tree and otherwise simply "graft" their genesis on your tree at whatever point? ie the cost of a "regrind" might not even be all that big perhaps? (I'm not fully clear on the details so whether/if/in what case this is possible as such or not)	[17:12]
jfw:	So we've got, say, GCC, GNAT, python, sbcl, php, for starters; with a bunch of programs built on each, and users and maintainers with markedly different degrees of commitment to each. In tree structure A, all are included in one very large trunk; nobody's happy with the patch weight from the parts they don't use. In structure B, each language is on its own branch – but this simply doens't work if	[17:13]
jfw:	you want to use multiple. So there's structure C where various maintainer branches emerge containing different subsets of the languages, with substantial duplication	[17:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: go on.	[17:14]
jfw:	that cost does reflect a sorry state of code proliferation, but is the reality for now and quite a bit of foreseeable future	[17:18]
jfw:	Could this 'grafting' be seen as ~ pressing one tree in some subdir of another tree? If so, seems to be indeed what I have in mind	[17:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: for one thing I think your option C anyway happens, it's only less visible atm (~everyone has exactly that on their own computer and moreover, on different computers, no?)	[17:19]
diana_coman:	for another thing, you can make a point of a minimal set and if that is indeed so, then naturally the branching will happen on top of it but still, I don't see how would it even be possible for it to not happen	[17:20]
jfw:	it's indeed the case and less visible, that is, one selects a set of software to include on a given machine, a process that doesn't presently require any regrinding / signing	[17:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: admiteddly my concept of grafting is not fully formed but what I had in mind would be along the lines of genesis + whatever number of vpatches on top; as long as those touch only their own stuff, "grafting" it is a matter of going from empty predecessor for genesis to non-empty predecessor; I suppose the manifest file is the one that would force regrind in that it has to propagate though.	[17:26]
jfw:	hm, what does an empty predecessor mean?	[17:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: genesis is a vpatch on an empty dir, no?	[17:28]
jfw:	right	[17:28]
jfw:	oh I see	[17:28]
diana_coman:	tbh I can even see this done via script, not like a big pain in itself; basically V does not introduce trouble – it only makes it harder to ignore the trouble that there IS in fact, heh; as long as things are kept neat and tidy, there's very little additional cost that is imposed by v itself, come to think of it.	[17:30]
jfw:	there is this convention that's developed – though I hadn't been following it – of putting all code in a top-level dir named for the project, with manifest inside that. A graft, then, could mean a patch type that essentially lists (project, branch hash) to combine	[17:30]
jfw:	could possibly be done even with existing V – just add a line to each manifest.	[17:33]
diana_coman:	well yes, I'm not suggesting to change existing V, no, lolz.	[17:33]
diana_coman:	I meant a script to add that line (presumably if you have a huge tree, you might want to)	[17:33]
jfw:	I guess I'm catching up slowly then :)	[17:35]
diana_coman:	this grafting thing is anyway not fully clear even to me and I'm not even sure it IS a thing anyway; but at any rate, my main point is to make full use of V precisely because it forces things in the clear and that is gold.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	(at which point I realise that I ended up the V-champion too, good god).	[17:38]
jfw:	I'm trying to figure out what that yggdrasil thing is or what full use of V really means basically.	[17:40]
jfw:	since it seems I can't genesis gales without doing so!	[17:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: I doubt it's possible to know ALL in advance, because some things will surely become clear only with use; even so far things evolved gradually, e.g. manifest file	[17:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: my "full use of V" above means – at all junctures aim to work with V rather than avoiding/sidelining it and if that creates some apparent problem/trouble, then discuss and weigh it seriously because chances are that the problem is not with V but with what you are trying to do and "doesn't fit"	[17:43]
diana_coman:	or how you are trying to do it	[17:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: I suppose the V answerarium might be useful here.	[17:46]
jfw:	I'd recently started on that even; will give it another go	[17:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: and you know, comment & ask there if anything's not clear, it's the primary source anyway.	[17:49]
jfw:	right.	[17:50]
diana_coman:	(that being said, the full process outlined there is based on a republic existing.)	[17:51]
jfw:	thanks for the feedback diana_coman; I'll bbl.	[18:09]
whaack:	diana_coman: I saw your comment on the publication of my logs just now. I provided some context for the logs in a previous article that I linked to in the article that contains the data (albeit perhaps not clearly and prominently enough). I can see that the previous	[19:43]
whaack:	article is missing some important information regarding describing the data; I will prioritize adding those.	[19:43]
jfw:	Another case I catch myself X11 copy/pasting: typing out full vpatch file names (including .vpatch suffix but not patches/ prefix, thus not tab-completable) for v.pl press	[22:35]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 31 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:31 pm

jfw:	Got most of a draft for an article on my V mess but need to add some refs and revise, will do in the morning. And doggone it there goes my bedtime	[03:38]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023416 <– why yes ofc. I'll have it announce trinque.org there, would you like it to read other feeds?	[03:39]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 19:15:48 trinque: incidentally spyked may I have feedbot in #trinque ?	[03:39]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023419 – a genesis of Gales sounds needed in any case, indeed; if you recall, there is some difference between genesis and other patches in that genesis may at times be huge since it says "here's this thing to start working on", while a patch says "here's this change to look at if it should be made or not"; quite a significant difference too and in practice I'd say it means that a …	[04:39]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 22:49:05 jfw: I've been thinking it's high time for a genesis of the Gales Linux repository, and ideally to cut down on the inclusion of tarballs by reference. Post-TMSR-OS or no, JWRD's using Gales now so we need to keep it maintained. In theory, I'm seeing making a stronger division between base system and gports, where the former lives entirely in-tree and the latter remains tarballs on a mirror. In	[04:39]
diana_coman:	… genesis should include everything there; sign it with "use" key rather than your key, sure; use it as starting point rather than anything else and so on; but I hardly see the point in what is basically an incomplete genesis.	[04:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: basically the cut(s) you propose would be patches /branches (if several cuts are really worth it) on that genesis, to my mind.	[04:41]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023426 – lobbes, how are those guys in Brasil in the end anyway? there were some reviews/articles you were supposedly writing on shinjiru and on those…	[04:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 23:09:28 lobbes: diana_coman: I also wanted to ask you: assuming that I get the mp-wp bot logger thing to the point where you'd want to try it for #ossasepia, would you want to host it on one of your existing boxes or would you want a fresh one?	[04:42]
diana_coman:	you know, what can I say re "a box" like that ?	[04:43]
whaack:	!!v 97A6D990ADAE2F13FEC8A1A48872099631998D47B6E4F1AACA5A3B51762556E9	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated jfw 5 << Met in the flesh, writes at fixpoint.welshcomputing.com, has a wealth of knowledge about computers, bitcoin, and the like. Made a linux distro and wallet tool.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v B69BF0D230BF36ED5400FB7DF4CC6CB6A959EB4D5FA4A062C78F648CE697867F	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated dorion 5 << Met in the flesh, writes at dorion-mode.com, manages JWRD – a consulting business that helps their clients take control of their computers.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v 3ECE413729C7EE1F64BB0A1CF49EAD08A37A7C188B9D56D72EF87C61C009B953	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated trinque 3 << Writes at trinque.org, maintainer of deedbot, calls out bullshit when he sees it.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v 7CA6A15AAF4F31A678784A398AC7A6C4E26BA0ECDF89F262CC0F666BCB227409	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated hanbot 5 << Writes at thewhet.net, the goto person for questions regarding advice for living in Costa Rica. Helped me acquire the ergonomic chair I'm sitting in now.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v A0582B173C5D133CE5FB5FEA2979359BDF4FF2CC6B4B16D596481ACDCD6E1C0B	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated lobbes 2 << Writes at krankendenken.com, contributed various tools to tmsr.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v EDBD574D6803A045E590ACECFDCA9AD991ABB022D0BD6A4D404D7FA3348BE7C6	[14:42]
deedbot:	whaack rated spyked 3 << Writes at thetarpit.org, maintainer of feedbot.	[14:42]
whaack:	!!v 3F6A33999C6E98C4108D3141A124E83615F638FC945A6AF4BD5B15F822A1AD94	[14:43]
deedbot:	whaack rated mod6 1 << Writes at blog.mod6.net Developed trb and maintained the bitcoin foundation. But I can't tell if this internet entity is a person, he never writes ANYTHING about himself!	[14:43]
whaack:	!!v 524A9A0D507E2229B58463297F9B9D95956B61CE30011530B519D47B9970B5B0	[14:43]
deedbot:	whaack rated bvt 2 << Writes at http://bvt-trace.net/ , has done work above my pay grade such as recently writing his own V in ADA.	[14:43]
whaack:	!!v C7F1351F7E525497D34E2C5F063EEE10F51A7773DEFB54DBA8C79F34587484DC	[14:43]
deedbot:	whaack rated mircea_popescu 5 << The bitcoin king. Writes at trilema.com, a blog that is a pill against hallucinations. Reading trilema helped kill my delusions of self importance and led me to my master, Diana Coman.	[14:43]
whaack:	!!v 34FD12E2432330FA0AD4ED873A2EE1CB4F3909495EE271B8D30E65A3D06DFF01	[14:43]
deedbot:	whaack rated asciilifeform 3 << Writes at loper-os.org, created various cryptographic tools including a hardware TRNG device – FUCKGOATS.	[14:43]
whaack:	(done)	[14:43]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023364 – trinque , can you help me with this? I'm trying to make a deposit to deedbot so it's ready for the end of the week but a. from the help I couldn't tell if sum is in satoshi or btc b. given the format deedbot gives for the rest I assumed btc, sent the !!deposit, got a challenge, send the corresponding !!v and it stopped there – am I missing something/doing something wrong?	[16:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 18:26:33 diana_coman: trinque: is the deposit amount in btc or in satoshis (ie float or int)?	[16:16]
trinque:	hm, sec	[16:19]
trinque:	amounts are in btc, and I use a fixed precision type on the other end	[16:21]
trinque:	looking into what happened.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023358 – bvt, I looked at this, it's basically no-and-yes, lolz; specifically: no, it's not a discrepancy, in fact the confusion is caused precisely because I was a stickler for not changing the tests otherwise, if you look at the outputs and at the printing in the tests you'll notice that the print for ch15 basically does what that transform you nuked in ch16 does otherwise; but …	[16:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 16:52:00 bvt: diana_coman: i've been updating vtools to bytewise keccak (for 2x perf improvement), and discovered a discrepancy between eucrypt.smg_keccak ch15 and ch16 behavior, the test case is at bvt-trace.net/pub/smg_keccak_test.tgz ; it seems that the transform at http://btcbase.org/patches/eucrypt_ch16_bytestream_keccak#L146 is not necessary (removing it fixes the issue), but i believe you're in a better position	[16:23]
trinque:	diana_coman: mind giving me a day to debug this, and we can reconvene tomorrow?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	… yes, for your needs and basically when using keccak on bytes/octets without all the mess the "spec" made by talking of bits and not working solely with full octets, there's no need to go roundabouts like that and you can nuke the flipping around, as there's no need for it if you always work with full octets/bytes, indeed.	[16:23]
trinque:	I will make sure you do not lose any coin, and have a suspicion I know what the problem is.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: sure, no rush from my side; I simply wanted to make sure I have the money in there to be able to pay your invoice at the end of the week, nothing else.	[16:24]
trinque:	I appreciate it, and will get this fixed.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	fwiw I did not send anything so there's nothing I can lose so far, lol	[16:24]
whaack:	!!v D05657860D7069B628C08C16F1ADB0A492E5CDBD86673D2BA074A784842CD3E7	[16:54]
deedbot:	whaack updated rating of BingoBoingo from 1 to 5 << Ran qntra.net for many years, blogs at http://bingology.net/, runs a new news site at http://mvdstandard.net/, has given me useful car advice.	[16:54]
whaack:	!!v A23FE1AED8410E954114EB68DBB7F7652101849154D4AC4AD3E51EA7C4A57F99	[16:55]
deedbot:	whaack rated billymg 5 << Guanacaste neighbor, writes at billymg.com, escaped the US just in time. Maintains mp-wp and has written a useful vpatch for displaying vpatches.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	a new news, lolz	[16:56]
whaack:	:D	[17:00]
BingoBoingo:	enjoying that three letter deep alliteration	[17:04]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 30 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:21 pm

BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Comment on http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/29/the-young-hands-club-moving-forwards/ in your mod hopper or spam hopper.	[03:07]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Review and plan delayed this week by notes I've got to keep chewing through and some rather sore feet from that pursuit.	[03:12]
BingoBoingo:	lost time last week, now that I'm shaving again to the pursuit of a civilized apparatus (unavailable in the local market at present) that holds a doube edged blade (readily available in the local market in quantity) so my neck can finally stop being angry 18 out of every 24 hours.	[03:25]
BingoBoingo:	has already split the most blocking set of notes into a blog post draft (object: the motochorro that circled me several times, too timid to ask the question that is his trade)	[03:38]
BingoBoingo:	has not experienced anything with a remotely similar flavor since shortly after arriving, and that suspicion has faded in the retrospect	[03:43]
BingoBoingo:	Predator was looking for prey as I was seeing how many kilometers I could put on the odometer without leaving my barrio. Dude made 7 approaches between km 6 and km 18 of my lsd spider polygons, but never closed to within 3 meters,	[03:46]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/30/jfw-plan-week-of-30-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 30 Mar 2020	[03:51]
BingoBoingo:	would have liked to get that damned interview, but… In a city where the police regularly get robbed of their sidearms, apparently I'm a tricolor neon octopus.	[03:51]
whaack:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023181 Yes I want to analyze them and publish them, but I would like advise on how to do both. For the later, do I just host the .sql file? Do I create a log viewer that allows one to filter by network + channel? (I can dig up old logs / discussions to answer these questions, I know that I was once advised against making any browser	[03:52]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 05:23:06 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023177 – weren't you going to analyse and publish them or what do you mean?	[03:52]
whaack:	based text filter tool)	[03:52]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/30/wh-review-of-week-24-mar-23rd-mar-29th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Review of Week 24 (Mar 23rd – Mar 29th)	[03:55]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: lsd spider polygons? tricolor neon octopus? would you call your odometer test a "walk" or a "trip"?	[03:59]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: I was doing roughly circles, but I did not archictect the steet layout in my hood. For the neon octopus comment, the motochorro was obviously looking for old biddies purses and in the lack of those available tried seeking other prey. I don't know any other model for the way he consistently broke attempts at contact other than the natural signalling of poisonousness through bright colors I was not wearing	[04:02]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: jfw can explain a bit the strange way my hood is laid out.	[04:04]
BingoBoingo:	But anything more than a single block isn't going to be a simple quadrilateral	[04:05]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: ah now I understand, I did not get "lsd spider polygons" was a description of your walking path.	[04:07]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: It's alright. I didn't plan the path so much as I went trying to find people and came up short.	[04:08]
BingoBoingo:	Not just short, 63\% of the bipeds on the ticker were known pichis.	[04:09]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: Did you protect yourself with the imagine-stabbing-the-vulnerable-to-get-the-right-facial-muscles technique?	[04:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-01-19 16:54:41 BingoBoingo: whaack: That isn't necessarily an error on its own. You left out the failure to keep a hand in your pocket while taking some time to think about who the most stabbable people in the crowd are.	[04:10]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: For all I know he can smell smokeless powder in well seated bullets	[04:11]
BingoBoingo:	also very not used to being beardless	[04:11]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: Can't say I follow what you mean by him being able to "smell smokeless powder in well seated bullets"	[04:14]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: So, before gunshot residue can be a thing, there's this material called gunpowder. It is normally stuck between a bullet, casing, and primer with a bit of fatty lubricant. Generally the assembly is airtight. As I made that utterance in question, I'm absolutely stumped at the motochorro's approach and refusal to close	[04:17]
BingoBoingo:	Smokeless power refers to the propellant of all,but the most retro bullets	[04:18]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: The intention was saying the dude may have have a sort of "spidey sense" that triggered on a something that absolutely should have been unknowable to him	[04:22]
BingoBoingo:	If you take something a bit smelly and imprison it in brass, fat, and lead, the prospects of the smell escaping are poor.	[04:23]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: Ah, thank you for spelling it out for me.	[04:26]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: Np, anyways the point is if the cue that had him breaking off was not obvious to me. Even if I may or may not have had great reasons for him to do so in my pocket, that information was opaque to me.	[04:27]
BingoBoingo:	Yet he did it again and again and again.	[04:28]
whaack:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023189 I will give the article another reread and see if I have something more substantial to say tomorrow, but this is in line with how I forsaw younghands adapting to the closure of tmsr so for now all I have to say/give is a nod of agreement/acknowledgement.	[04:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 16:21:20 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023184 – BingoBoingo, lobbes, jfw, dorion, whaack let me know what you think there.	[04:34]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/30/wh-plan-for-week-25-mar-30th-april-5th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Plan For Week 25 (Mar 30th – April 5th)	[04:54]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023194 – ah, I had it just generically "Sunday evening from 7pm utc onwards" but yes, you are right there.	[05:01]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 16:49:10 lobbes: diana_coman: I was planning for our 7:30 UTC time slot. I will be digesting your latest article though; it did indeed touch on some of my concerns with myself even	[05:01]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023202 – iirc bachcentral.com used to have something reasonable, don't they have it anymore?	[05:05]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 18:58:55 jfw: In sadness from my day off, I've been unable to find online any properly sourced plain-text (or even scanned) rendition of any particular edition of the Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis, even at the basic level of (number, title, categories)	[05:05]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023203 – cool, I'll do it in a minute.	[05:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 19:17:47 trinque: diana_coman: deedbot is ready to join. if you'll issue the following command, I'll have it do so: /msg ChanServ flags #ossasepia deedbot +oO	[05:06]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023204 – sounds reasonable.	[05:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 19:19:58 trinque: we'll let things run for a week and see if any issues arise, and then I'll invoice at the end.	[05:07]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023211 – no problem at all there; that's the whole point – find what works best within the overall framework which is structured so you have something to lean on but is not set in concrete to suffocate anything.	[05:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 22:49:31 lobbes: diana_coman: In any case, I would like to remain a full member of the YHC. I don't want to go back to a playing a losing game. I wanted to ask you though: would you be opposed if I change my review/plan writing frequency to once a month? It is hard to explain, but I like having the latitude to improvise on a day-to-day basis. That and I w	[05:10]
diana_coman:	and for that matter, things are supposed to evolve and therefore change anyway.	[05:11]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023213 – fwiw that sounds more like "need to digest/reflect/take a break"; it doesn't really have to come with "sick of it" though, lolz.	[05:12]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 22:49:44 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-29#1023190 << Some days/weeks/months I'll be very productive and can reflect on myself quite easily. Then other days/weeks I'll just get sick of everything (myself included) and I'll just "shut off" for a while. While this might sound odd on paper, I swear when I "turn back on" again I have newfound perspective and energy. I'm not even sure if this is a problem tbh	[05:12]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 22:09:57 trinque: lobbes: I'm curious what part of you has the maturity to see your own flaws, and how you separate that from the other.	[05:12]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023217 – as for lobbes above, if you find a different frequency better, go with it; tricolor octopus sounds good though.	[05:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 03:12:12 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Review and plan delayed this week by notes I've got to keep chewing through and some rather sore feet from that pursuit.	[05:14]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I'll give a different frequency some thought, but right now it is more wrestling with the WTF of the world than the scheduling that got me off track.	[05:17]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023224 – the easiest "publish" is a dump indeed, not sure why would you think you need anything more than that? I guess you can provide both .sql and .csv if you want to really provide options but that is all really as far as data itself goes (well, with some sig/checksum at least)	[05:17]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 03:52:49 whaack: diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023181 Yes I want to analyze them and publish them, but I would like advise on how to do both. For the later, do I just host the .sql file? Do I create a log viewer that allows one to filter by network + channel? (I can dig up old logs / discussions to answer these questions, I know that I was once advised against making any browser	[05:17]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: tbh that's how it usually always is, heh	[05:17]
diana_coman:	whaack: the more dubious otherwise overall issue there is what exactly IS that data of yours given that your process is not all that clear&reliable as far as I can tell; and you know, data needs context to mean anything.	[05:18]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: So it seems. Just the waves this past month really seem to be tossing the boat quite a bit more than I have come to know.	[05:19]
BingoBoingo:	I mean when 9/11 happened in high school that was one thing. This present hysteric terror gripping the world is something else.	[05:21]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023247 – lolz, there's no need for nod or approval/disapproval; there's a concrete question for you to answer – do you still want the level of involvement at "members" level or would you prefer less of it ie "hopefuls" ?	[05:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 04:34:53 whaack: diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023189 I will give the article another reread and see if I have something more substantial to say tomorrow, but this is in line with how I forsaw younghands adapting to the closure of tmsr so for now all I have to say/give is a nod of agreement/acknowledgement.	[05:24]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: you know, I kept reading from several of you re 9/11 and I recalled the 1989 Ro revolution but dunno, for all its magnitude and all that, I still don't see that moment itself as much – it was the buildup and there was a whole lot more later on (the ~'92 for instance) but there in the moment…dunno.	[05:27]
diana_coman:	it might be though that I have a weird lens for this sort of things; who knows, I might even get around to write it at some point.	[05:27]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Well, revolutions are internal, the buildup shows. A decerebrating strike like 9/11 only really offers a richness to plumb in retrospect.	[05:28]
BingoBoingo:	The Trumpening was visible, the world shutting down over a cold because the Chinese wanted to run a war game is… a big bag of wtf	[05:29]
BingoBoingo:	As best as I can tell, what happened with the virus of the season is it was spotted in wuhan at just the right time to get the Chicoms suspecting a US placement (whether there was or wasn't seems irrelevant outside of the messaging). The Chicoms responded by being more Chinese than ever, but the rest of the world fucked up and entered into a stotting show over how much they can afford to waste on a warm-ish fire drill.	[05:38]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: hm, I don't think so really; there's a lot there and I have only ~5 minutes left now but in short, the way I see it the "world shutting down over a cold" was quite visible really; ie sure, "not visible over what specific silly thing" but very visible that it will; because it couldn't quite keep going on the way it was set, as simple as that, and so shut down it had to; it found this conveniently and matching but that's …	[05:41]
diana_coman:	… quite irrelevant really.	[05:41]
diana_coman:	anyways, I'll be back at the usual 7pm utc	[05:41]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: ty, maybe I was just expecting a completely different flavor of silly thing. As recently as January Trump was teasing a serious thing to shut down over.	[05:42]
BingoBoingo:	would not have been around without the clarity of the US/fiatist system's immanent failure being immanent for a long time, but… damn this was sudden. And incredibly wrapped in pre-text	[05:50]
whaack:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023270 I am not able to answer this question so easily. I cast a wide logging "fishing net" over 100 networks. About 40\% escaped being logged for some reason or another. For the other networks it appears I was able to successfully log their most populated channels for sometime between 14 and 36 days.	[14:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 05:18:50 diana_coman: whaack: the more dubious otherwise overall issue there is what exactly IS that data of yours given that your process is not all that clear&reliable as far as I can tell; and you know, data needs context to mean anything.	[14:33]
whaack:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023273 << I would like to stay at the members level, aware that without change I am going to be wasting your time. I suggest we see how I can do this week and if I come up short again then we can call a spade a spade and put me in the hopefules section and formalize the reduce interaction I've had w/ younghands/#o. Things have been quite good	[14:44]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 05:24:04 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023247 – lolz, there's no need for nod or approval/disapproval; there's a concrete question for you to answer – do you still want the level of involvement at "members" level or would you prefer less of it ie "hopefuls" ?	[14:44]
whaack:	here for me, and I'm going to try to use the positives as fuel for motivation to get stuff done.	[14:44]
whaack:	Some of my logs – especially those written in lanaguages other than English – from TheFleet are filled with escape sequences from some encoding, I believe utf-8. Example: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=H9tu How should I go about displaying the characters determined by the escape sequences when I publish the logs on my blog? Or should I just leave them as is?	[15:50]
jfw:	trinque, whaack: paste.deedbot.org throwing a 500	[16:04]
jfw:	whaack: the logs are pretty big right? how about just linking a .sql.gz in uploads	[16:05]
jfw:	nobody's going to read them straight through like an actual article	[16:05]
jfw:	stats, however, would be interesting for the article	[16:06]
whaack:	jfw: strange, no 500 over here	[16:09]
jfw:	ah, the IP changed from my hosts file.	[16:10]
jfw:	96.43.130.234 now for (paste	[16:10]
whaack:	jfw: My plan is to link the .sql.gz and then post some excerpts. I wanted to format those excerpts properly.	[16:10]
jfw:	* {paste.,wot.,}deedbot.org	[16:11]
jfw:	ah ok. IRC doesn't specify a character encoding so it's kind of a jungle, but things seem to be mostly utf8 these days from my limited samples.	[16:13]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023287 – all right.	[16:13]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 14:44:14 whaack: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023273 << I would like to stay at the members level, aware that without change I am going to be wasting your time. I suggest we see how I can do this week and if I come up short again then we can call a spade a spade and put me in the hopefules section and formalize the reduce interaction I've had w/ younghands/#o. Things have been quite good	[16:13]
jfw:	whaack: I'd guess it's something in your pipeline that's adding the x#### escapes	[16:14]
diana_coman:	whaack: it's analysis, not excerpts you need to put in an article, lol; the raw data .sql/.csv (archived, sure or split if huge etc) but otherwise analysis with supporting charts or stats not excerpts (unless you are planning some even-more-time-consuming analysis but I seriously doubt that)	[16:15]
diana_coman:	whaack: as a rule, raw data is raw data; if you do any filtering/cleaning/whatever, you can publish the result too but you need to clearly add to it the full description of what you did there.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	trinque: I did set the flags for deedbot with chanserv; do let me know if it didn't work/something else is needed.	[16:19]
trinque:	cool, lets see if it works	[16:20]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023189 – thanks. I'm giving it a second read now and working on a comment.	[16:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 16:21:20 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023184 – BingoBoingo, lobbes, jfw, dorion, whaack let me know what you think there.	[16:21]
trinque:	!!gettrust diana_coman trinque	[16:21]
deedbot:	L1: 9, L2: 36 by 11 connections.	[16:21]
trinque:	woohoo!	[16:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: yeee!	[16:22]
trinque:	looks good so far; if there are any problems just ping me and I'll fix.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: is the wallet still with deedbot too?	[16:23]
trinque:	yep, wallet works	[16:23]
trinque:	!!balance	[16:23]
deedbot:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xURc	[16:23]
trinque:	can do !!invoice in here, etc	[16:23]
diana_coman:	cool; I take it, it's quite the same set of commands so the help is still up to date, correct?	[16:23]
trinque:	yep I've updated !!help. the only big change is the set of parameters to !!up and !!down	[16:24]
whaack:	diana_coman: Okay. My article I was baking for today/tomorrow was "how many channels/networks mentioned 'coronavirus', what were the conversations about 'coronavirus', etc." Should I keep with this or abort and just post some more general stats?	[16:24]
diana_coman:	ah, I'll read it then and give it a spin; thanks!	[16:25]
diana_coman:	whaack: uhm, what's the focus on coronavirus now? lolz	[16:25]
trinque:	yw	[16:25]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/30/ar-review-march-23rd-29th-and-plan-march-30th-april-5/ << Young Hands Club — AR Review March 23rd – 29th And Plan March 30th – April 5	[16:26]
diana_coman:	are you planning to troll with "how many channels did coronavirus infect for lack of social-channel-isolation" or what?	[16:26]
whaack:	diana_coman: I wanted to pick some example keyword, and I figured since "coronavirus" is a new string that has entered human heads it would perhaps lead me to some active conversations	[16:27]
whaack:	^ loll	[16:27]
diana_coman:	ahaha, it's most likely less a topic of discussion than one of news & automated stuff really	[16:27]
diana_coman:	and no, discussion is not defined by "keywords", lol	[16:28]
whaack:	of course discussion is not defined by keywords, but searching for certain words over others maybe leads one to rooms where discussions occur?	[16:28]
diana_coman:	do some proper stats first of all; how many users per logged chan; how many of those said how many lines per interval etc; start with the basic question which was "how much activity is where"	[16:29]
diana_coman:	whaack: I can't see any logic there.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	I mean maybe, sure, maybe anything; if you have the right incantation, it might lead you to where discussions occur, certainly.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	whaack: now I realise that hm; are you even aware of different chart types and which ones are useful for showing/visualising what?	[16:30]
diana_coman:	data visualisation is a huge domain in itself but hm, basics first; and in any case, start with the original question and aim first to have and publish a summary of the data; that being said, do mind if /how much rubbish your collection process might have inserted,ahem; data quality is yet another part of it,lolz.	[16:32]
diana_coman:	whaack: on a basic level understand that the whole point of systematic anything is precisely != pick a magic word at random as it might lead somewhere better than another, lol.	[16:34]
whaack:	diana_coman: ^ Hardly. Maybe this is just some excuse but I got so used to seeing charts of what I believed was biased data displayed by people I don't trust to make political arguments so I came to disregard the utility of graphs all together.	[16:34]
diana_coman:	whaack: ahaha, poor graphs; they are not at fault there!	[16:37]
diana_coman:	and yes, you can do lots of nonsense with pretty charts, certainly	[16:38]
diana_coman:	hm, I had an example of doing exactly that, quite purposefully , hm	[16:38]
diana_coman:	ah, it's in Ro sadly, here though: http://ossasepia.com/2010/09/01/ce-poti-face-cu-niste-date/	[16:39]
diana_coman:	basically an "analysis" of the …length of titles on trilema.com , lolz	[16:40]
whaack:	I think more generally I became allergic to arguments that use data	[16:40]
diana_coman:	with perfect charts and everything else, it was quite some fun.	[16:40]
diana_coman:	whaack: lol; allergies are not that ..healthy	[16:41]
whaack:	haha, well maybe in a couple years after I get a little farther with Spanish I'll start tackling Romanian and then be able to read the article	[16:41]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023230 – I recall it as a number of grids fused together at odd angles to follow the curve of the coast	[16:41]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 04:04:19 BingoBoingo: whaack: jfw can explain a bit the strange way my hood is laid out.	[16:41]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: Aha, with the substantial danger in travel time of grids with many not-quite parallel streets	[16:42]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023252 – they do, but their data is messier than their frontend bargains for. Eg: on http://bachcentral.com/BWV/index.html there's two different "28"s, that link to… the same detail page; and the #231 that was renamed at some unknown point to "28/2a" or some such, isn't shown at all. That was just the first thing I hit.	[16:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 05:05:46 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023202 – iirc bachcentral.com used to have something reasonable, don't they have it anymore?	[16:45]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, so …genesis bach-werke-verzeichnis in the works?	[16:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: quite possible, maybe I find some unemployed waiters to transcribe from paper	[16:49]
diana_coman:	maybe I should even translate that illustration of nonsense through scientific method application, huh.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: and then some unemployed chefs to correct the transcription? lolz	[16:50]
bvt:	diana_coman: i've been updating vtools to bytewise keccak (for 2x perf improvement), and discovered a discrepancy between eucrypt.smg_keccak ch15 and ch16 behavior, the test case is at bvt-trace.net/pub/smg_keccak_test.tgz ; it seems that the transform at http://btcbase.org/patches/eucrypt_ch16_bytestream_keccak#L146 is not necessary (removing it fixes the issue), but i believe you're in a better position	[16:52]
bvt:	to tell, as i did not do a deep dive into the impl and spec	[16:52]
diana_coman:	bvt: interesting, thank you; I'll have a look at it.	[16:52]
jfw:	diana_coman: I suppose it'd be inevitable.	[16:53]
diana_coman:	bvt: the spec was SUCH a pain with the bits/bytes and order that ~anything is possible; but I'll need to get back to it as it's been quite a while; I'll let you know.	[16:54]
bvt:	no problem	[16:55]
diana_coman:	trinque: is the deposit amount in btc or in satoshis (ie float or int)?	[18:26]
diana_coman:	also, the help page still lists RSS – does deedbot still do/do you plan it to do rss as well?	[18:27]
diana_coman:	!!gettrust diana_coman	[18:28]
deedbot:	L1: 0, L2: 58 by 18 connections.	[18:28]
diana_coman:	ahaha, I don't trust myself AT ALL !	[18:28]
diana_coman:	!!v C75833BF657BC1601C85A70403C2AE6C936FF27114BB2EFEA6C5C550F79D0246	[18:54]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of ave1 from 9 to 2 << great gnat/ada work; can't quite talk; writes at ave1.org	[18:54]
diana_coman:	!!v FA3B5F37FDA09D4248FE872F3BD947CD53E585207BCF469D28E525311FB5C116	[18:55]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of BingoBoingo from 9 to 4 << YH member; long history; writes at bingology.net and mvdstandard.net	[18:55]
diana_coman:	!!v AE03414950ADF6DA2A35A1414D0327C510BD5F93E1BD23955D4D1F264791733A	[18:55]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of bvt from 9 to 3 << great code work; writes at bvt-trace.net	[18:55]
diana_coman:	!!v CB4F6F4C28A79BAB9CE9F2BDB02247F5840E99715254705845A795566847CD92	[18:55]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of dorion from 3 to 3 << YH member; JWRD consulting; writes at dorion-mode.com	[18:55]
diana_coman:	!!v C93E46A4BFBBD70441EAD9CA4455ED4916B389F264202AD9F97F44452AE0A6EE	[18:56]
deedbot:	diana_coman unrated dorion_road.	[18:56]
diana_coman:	!!v 621E34B6AFE6392B774281F1E24EF9CB88FF722BD08768C4DBB3D9C8849BA3F1	[18:56]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of jfw from 3 to 3 << YH member; JWRD consulting; sysadmin; Gales; writes at fixpoint.welshcomputing.com	[18:56]
diana_coman:	!!v E9414DEFED0A2AA80DD732CE50DE604620EF3E49A03B5B1C43C31AF4145B101C	[18:56]
deedbot:	diana_coman unrated jfw_travel.	[18:56]
diana_coman:	!!v 7D80B521C556087BE61865CB0910E0A840067B8D4BAB0CA83120D1B80E0774F5	[18:57]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of lobbes from 9 to 4 << YH member; long history; writes at blog.lobbesblog.com	[18:57]
diana_coman:	!!v 76D7198CCADC425E737787F10DF3C700DEC9C2745AC169738B7C0F4E82E13897	[18:57]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of Mocky from 9 to 2 << went to qatar; made mockybot for eulora; met irl.	[18:57]
diana_coman:	!!v FE75EB2ACC47DCF96095BBD9CF0FA8474A65007CDA7E5053D144FE0AC605FDBB	[18:57]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of mod6 from 9 to 4 << trb code work; writes at mod6.net	[18:57]
diana_coman:	!!v 42BB18CFAE085DC03FF9281300B98B7EAE2DA1E0D59E039F90D8D04B1FE643DB	[18:57]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of spyked from 9 to 5 << met irl; long history; writes at thetarpit.org	[18:57]
diana_coman:	!!v 74E4305E7192C5D4F5F35A78561E06BAC82BC3E57A7720FD0601DDCFAAC46CD7	[18:58]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of thimbronion from 2 to 2 << former YH member; writes for BingoBoingo's newspaper and at thimbron.com	[18:58]
diana_coman:	!!v 450FDF58A79F0E0F8AB24E37C17E2290A2A5020F67AFE2EBB2E16E3F371F7485	[18:58]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of trinque from 9 to 4 << owns deedbot; long history; writes at trinque.org	[18:58]
diana_coman:	!!v 8B563FE59B238D8DB67B25EE0FCC24115A3410F9F20066C82CFEDA6A33CE57B7	[18:58]
deedbot:	diana_coman updated rating of whaack from 2 to 2 << YH member; writes at ztkfg.com	[18:58]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia whaack	[18:59]
deedbot:	whaack voiced for 30 minutes.	[18:59]
diana_coman:	cool; I'll devoice everyone in my L1 – you should be able to !!up yourselves with deedbot ; if it doesn't work, pm me or trinque about it.	[19:00]
diana_coman:	!!up cruciform2	[19:04]
deedbot:	You may not !!up yourself.	[19:04]
diana_coman:	trinque: ^ ?	[19:04]
diana_coman:	!!up #ossasepia cruciform2	[19:04]
deedbot:	cruciform2 voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:04]
diana_coman:	ah, nm.	[19:04]
diana_coman:	!!key cruciform2	[19:06]
deedbot:	Not registered.	[19:06]
diana_coman:	!!key cruciform	[19:06]
deedbot:	http://wot.deedbot.org/4E18288CAA6A98F4C51066053B6F4A8387D54AC6.asc	[19:06]
diana_coman:	!!v 76EC35E7E4726FADE9C743B2D1097962734974B08E50572BAE9996C77BEAEC3C	[19:09]
deedbot:	diana_coman rated cruciform 1 << YH hopeful.	[19:09]
diana_coman:	cruciform2: you'll need to reconnect with the nick on which you registered the key and then try !!up with deedbot for voice.	[19:10]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[19:12]
trinque:	diana_coman: ah thanks, I've removed the reference to rss.	[19:15]
trinque:	feedbot handles that very well.	[19:15]
trinque:	incidentally spyked may I have feedbot in #trinque ?	[19:15]
jfw:	!!v 237CEA2FADE8B436ADEA99C798C0E85B8DBC58377333ACAD05E2536DC7FDAD27	[19:37]
deedbot:	jfw rated jfw_unchecked 10 << Me, per http://welshcomputing.com/jfw_unchecked-cert.asc	[19:37]
jfw:	I've been thinking it's high time for a genesis of the Gales Linux repository, and ideally to cut down on the inclusion of tarballs by reference. Post-TMSR-OS or no, JWRD's using Gales now so we need to keep it maintained. In theory, I'm seeing making a stronger division between base system and gports, where the former lives entirely in-tree and the latter remains tarballs on a mirror. In	[22:49]
jfw:	practice, another cut seems important, of importing the "almost-human-sized-if-you-squint" stuff (busybox, e2fsprogs, make, lilo, daemontools, gksh, …), and leaving the truly massive ones that might benefit anyway from greater version flexibility namely linux and gcc.	[22:49]
jfw:	savors the thought of some day ripping the Unicode tables out of musl, wondering what will break	[22:51]
lobbes:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023258 << thank you (as usual I'm glad I asked!). Okay, in that case I'm going to aim to get my review for March + plan for April out by Wednesday.	[23:09]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 05:10:51 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023211 – no problem at all there; that's the whole point – find what works best within the overall framework which is structured so you have something to lean on but is not set in concrete to suffocate anything.	[23:09]
lobbes:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-30-Mar-2020#1023261 << lol, yeah that is true; I may have exaggerated a bit there. "Reflect/recharge/etc" is a more apt description indeed	[23:09]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-30 05:12:33 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023213 – fwiw that sounds more like "need to digest/reflect/take a break"; it doesn't really have to come with "sick of it" though, lolz.	[23:09]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I also wanted to ask you: assuming that I get the mp-wp bot logger thing to the point where you'd want to try it for #ossasepia, would you want to host it on one of your existing boxes or would you want a fresh one?	[23:09]
lobbes:	I ask because I'm still renting that server in Brasil and don't mind holding it for a bit if you'd have a use for it. Otherwise, I'm gonna go ahead and cancel it and save some dubaloos	[23:09]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 29 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:11 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/29/jfw-review-week-of-23-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 23 Mar 2020	[02:22]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023167 – there is this stupid separation of content in wp so that it ends up with some in db and some on disk (well, fs-db); (which means also that making a full backup has to take both parts and so on); so yes, a wp design problem with deep roots for sure.	[05:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 22:29:10 jfw: (and how is it that normal articles wouldn't also fall under "content" or "upload" labels too?)	[05:21]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023177 – weren't you going to analyse and publish them or what do you mean?	[05:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 23:28:41 whaack: diana_coman: Would you like me to make TheFleet's logs available to you? If so, how would you like me to do that? The way I recommend is I setup a VM where you can ssh in and connect to the postgres db and view the logs there. I would need you to gpg me an ssh key for this. I can also make a .sql file and post instructions for loading that file into a local postgres db.	[05:23]
diana_coman:	and in predictable news, I can see the highly increased interest in silly attacks on ossasepia.com; yo, people, get in here instead and maybe do something more useful, you know?	[08:27]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/29/the-young-hands-club-moving-forwards/ << Ossa Sepia — The Young Hands Club Moving Forwards	[14:38]
cruciform:	diana_coman, Iâ€™ve been under the weather all week (gastrointestinal issues into Covid-like symptoms), so havenâ€™t made much progress on http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/ Hopefully, Iâ€™ll recover soon and be able to get cracking. I havenâ€™t disappeared â€“ just convalescing!	[15:26]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023165 thanks, I'll get to it as soon as health permits	[15:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 22:23:48 jfw: cruciform, your sample class outline: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/jwrd-sample-01-initial-unix-commands.txt	[15:27]
diana_coman:	cruciform: hope you get better soon!	[15:29]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Mar-2020#1023184 – BingoBoingo, lobbes, jfw, dorion, whaack let me know what you think there.	[16:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 14:38:31 feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/29/the-young-hands-club-moving-forwards/ << Ossa Sepia — The Young Hands Club Moving Forwards	[16:21]
diana_coman:	lobbes: hm, I thought you wanted to discuss today?	[16:28]
diana_coman:	obviously not; mk.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	will be away.	[16:36]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I was planning for our 7:30 UTC time slot. I will be digesting your latest article though; it did indeed touch on some of my concerns with myself even	[16:49]
jfw:	dorion: everything ok over there? any update re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Mar-2020#1022766 ?	[17:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-23 17:11:46 dorion: cruciform, jfw will get you the outline, I'll get you the per module pricing, and I'll give you an update on the written review after I've spoken with client that completed the lessons.	[17:45]
jfw:	cruciform: sounds rough, get well soon.	[17:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: the 'moving forwards' looks reasonable to me; I'll be giving it another read in a bit.	[18:21]
jfw:	diana_coman: and comment in mod queue.	[18:49]
jfw:	lobbes: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023141 – 1. what's the difference as you see it between juvenile man and 32yo boy? 2. does the "standing in the way" concern there reflect a problem of yours or a supposed problem of diana_coman's?	[18:54]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 13:25:25 lobbes: I've sort of come to the conclusion that while the history of the republic was a history of juvenile men, I think my root issue is that I'm not even a juvenile man, I'm more like a 32 y/o boy. In other words, I think my main problem here may fall outside the scope of a proper university. I don't want to stand in the way of other people who are actually producing things	[18:54]
jfw:	In sadness from my day off, I've been unable to find online any properly sourced plain-text (or even scanned) rendition of any particular edition of the Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis, even at the basic level of (number, title, categories)	[18:58]
trinque:	diana_coman: deedbot is ready to join. if you'll issue the following command, I'll have it do so: /msg ChanServ flags #ossasepia deedbot +oO	[19:17]
trinque:	we'll let things run for a week and see if any issues arise, and then I'll invoice at the end.	[19:19]
trinque:	lobbes: I'm curious what part of you has the maturity to see your own flaws, and how you separate that from the other.	[19:20]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-29#1023185 << My "standing in the way" concern was reflecting a supposed problem of diana_coman's, and others who were trying to improve. Though her latest article assuaged me of that concern a bit.	[22:49]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 21:43:03 jfw: lobbes: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023141 – 1. what's the difference as you see it between juvenile man and 32yo boy? 2. does the "standing in the way" concern there reflect a problem of yours or a supposed problem of diana_coman's?	[22:49]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 13:25:25 lobbes: I've sort of come to the conclusion that while the history of the republic was a history of juvenile men, I think my root issue is that I'm not even a juvenile man, I'm more like a 32 y/o boy. In other words, I think my main problem here may fall outside the scope of a proper university. I don't want to stand in the way of other people who are actually producing things	[22:49]
lobbes:	The difference between the "boy" vs "juvenile man" as I see it is the latter actually has some sort of ownership of something already, be it a business, or a profession, land ownership (in the true sense), etc. In other words, the boy still has way too much mixing of confidence and usage in his life. The juvenile man at least has begun to separate them.	[22:49]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-12-12 mp_en_viaje: in general though, that's the overarching point, gotta separate usage and confidence as a required ingredient of maturation.	[22:49]
lobbes:	diana_coman: In any case, I would like to remain a full member of the YHC. I don't want to go back to a playing a losing game. I wanted to ask you though: would you be opposed if I change my review/plan writing frequency to once a month? It is hard to explain, but I like having the latitude to improvise on a day-to-day basis. That and I w	[22:49]
lobbes:	ant to see if I can swim without needing the constant-reports. I'm open to negotiation here	[22:49]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-29#1023190 << Some days/weeks/months I'll be very productive and can reflect on myself quite easily. Then other days/weeks I'll just get sick of everything (myself included) and I'll just "shut off" for a while. While this might sound odd on paper, I swear when I "turn back on" again I have newfound perspective and energy. I'm not even sure if this is a problem tbh	[22:49]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-29 22:09:57 trinque: lobbes: I'm curious what part of you has the maturity to see your own flaws, and how you separate that from the other.	[22:49]
lobbes:	will bbl	[22:50]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 28 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 10:01 pm

jfw:	diana_coman: in Friday reviewing, I've still not broken the pattern (perhaps even doubling down on it, ugh) of apparently preferring to sit around burning time over even starting to look back at the records of the week. And it's not even like it was an especially bad week or anything, given the circumstances.	[02:52]
jfw:	I'll give it another go tomorrow.	[02:56]
jfw:	trinque: laptop-servering, good times huh. thamks	[02:57]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-26#1023064 << I'm alive and plan to stick around in some capacity, but idk in what capacity. Are you free tomorrow to talk at our standing meeting?	[13:25]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-26 19:54:55 diana_coman: lobbes: what happened to you?	[13:25]
lobbes:	I've sort of come to the conclusion that while the history of the republic was a history of juvenile men, I think my root issue is that I'm not even a juvenile man, I'm more like a 32 y/o boy. In other words, I think my main problem here may fall outside the scope of a proper university. I don't want to stand in the way of other people who are actually producing things	[13:25]
lobbes:	still.	[13:25]
lobbes:	will bbl	[13:25]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/28/rmd-week-22-plan-mar-28th-apr-3rd-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 22 plan, Mar 28th-Apr 3rd, 2020	[15:48]
trinque:	jfw: particularly, running in a repl so I could rapidly improve the thing.	[16:02]
trinque:	moving it back to the server now	[16:03]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023137 – ok.	[16:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 02:56:32 jfw: I'll give it another go tomorrow.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023139 – sure.	[16:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 13:25:22 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-26#1023064 << I'm alive and plan to stick around in some capacity, but idk in what capacity. Are you free tomorrow to talk at our standing meeting?	[16:27]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-26 19:54:55 diana_coman: lobbes: what happened to you?	[16:27]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Mar-2020#1023145 – trinque , do you find lisp well suited for irc? (I genuinely have no idea on the matter and asking you because I recall you said earlier you have quite a lot of experience with irc on the programming & admin side)	[16:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-28 16:02:44 trinque: jfw: particularly, running in a repl so I could rapidly improve the thing.	[16:30]
trinque:	it's quite nice to be able to connect to a running instance and inspect state / update code, general benefit beyond this use-case.	[16:36]
trinque:	isn't bad for writing parsers either, built for manipulating lists, though currently I'm still using cl-irc.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	ah, my question was ill-formed indeed; I meant more the environment than lisp itself, exactly because my impression was that it still ends up importing all sorts ~comparable to the python & flask; basically I still don't really know what (if anything) would be a choice that could be made practically with minimal (preferably none) imports.	[16:42]
trinque:	really depends on whether you use quicklisp.	[16:45]
trinque:	anything in there may haul in many other dependencies, yes.	[16:46]
trinque:	but hacking off quicklisp is one of the "decrufting" tasks I've been working on with deedbot.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	ah, cool then.	[16:48]
trinque:	the cl-irc dep list is maybe 5 or so packages deep, could be worse.	[16:48]
trinque:	but yes, quicklisp == npm, pypi, w/e	[16:49]
trinque:	possibly the best thing about CL is merely that it was standardized once, and then everyone (and every company) that could've mustered a significant update to said standard died.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	can be, I could certainly see it.	[16:54]
jfw:	cruciform, your sample class outline: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/jwrd-sample-01-initial-unix-commands.txt	[22:23]
jfw:	diana_coman: now that ^ would have been a pain without pasting! although, I've had in mind to simplify that /wp-content/uploads/YYYY/MM/ to /files/YYYY/ as I can't really see any good the rest of those levels are doing me	[22:26]
jfw:	(and how is it that normal articles wouldn't also fall under "content" or "upload" labels too?)	[22:29]
jfw:	re CL, I suppose SBCL is the de facto standard update at least around here, since the standard doesn't include sockets	[22:33]
jfw:	which reminds me, I have an SBCL port on Gales, but it lacks some extensions including sb-bsd-sockets and sb-posix as they demand dynamic linking	[22:39]
jfw:	so python wins there it turns out.	[22:40]
trinque:	jfw: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Static-Linking.html << might be worth looking into at some point.	[22:56]
jfw:	trinque: interesting, though do you know the relation between CFFI and sb-alien which I recall is what the extensions use?	[23:00]
jfw:	I've imagined that one could provide dlopen/dlsym implementations as lookup tables for a predefined list of symbols, causing them to get linked into the bin	[23:02]
trinque:	haven't looked into the implementation here, just pointing to it as a potential starting point for research.	[23:05]
trinque:	at least indicates it's entirely possible.	[23:05]
jfw:	gotcha & thanks	[23:06]
whaack:	diana_coman: Would you like me to make TheFleet's logs available to you? If so, how would you like me to do that? The way I recommend is I setup a VM where you can ssh in and connect to the postgres db and view the logs there. I would need you to gpg me an ssh key for this. I can also make a .sql file and post instructions for loading that file into a local postgres db.	[23:28]

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#ossasepia Logs for 27 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:51 pm

jfw:	well here's some definite "cleaning only before company visits" failure in my process. my object here has been a V that works on Gales or other "small" systems; however I did most of the testing on a gentoo. only after thinking all was well and signing a patch did it occur to me to test all the pieces on a Gales system. Pressing worked fine – because I'd had the quirks of busybox patch in mind –	[03:31]
jfw:	but I'd also brought an awk-based vdiff into the picture, which is broken there because of a busybox diff quirk I'd forgotten (replacing the names of inexistent files with "/dev/null").	[03:31]
jfw:	now maybe this isn't a big enough problem to derail publishing – since previously there was no vdiff anyway on such a system; but that rather feels like propagating the "hygiene" problem. if a system can install code it should be able to edit it too ffs, or what are we making, iphones?	[03:40]
jfw:	the awk-vdiff is certainly fixable but will be some work I hadn't planned on.	[03:41]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Mar-2020#1023081 – trinque , do you realise we already have the same conversation in #trilema before? Here: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958690 ; that is all there is and sure, it's the description of the mechanism rather than the mechanism; if that's not enough, it's still all there currently is.	[06:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-26 19:51:45 trinque: diana_coman: there's the patches, and whatever selection mechanism everyone bitches every time I don't have.	[06:14]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-01 mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i suspect billymg 's thing might not actually include http://trilema.com/2019/proper-html-linking-the-crisis-the-solution-the-resolution-conclusion/#comment-132249	[06:14]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha; why don't you work on Gales anyway?	[06:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: re derailing publication – your adventure there actually brought forward some additional part that you should write up and publish, namely those "quirks" of busybox and the like; as you noticed, you forgot some of them yourself so write them down in one place to have as reference already; esp if you want to make Gales useful, anyway.	[06:22]
diana_coman:	so yes, sure, you don't have the v write up at the planned time; you still had though something to publish at that time: the summary of the adventure, with what came out of it; that is anyway the only thing that can ever be, after all – it's always exactly a summary of what you did and the fact that sometimes it happens to fit also previous plans and expectations does not make it something other than what you did.	[06:25]
diana_coman:	dorion: what happened to you?	[06:25]
BingoBoingo:	has first comment thread on new thing http://mvdstandard.net/2020/03/usg-indicts-venezualan-president-maduro-and-other-members-of-government-over-alleged-narco-terrorism-conspiracy/#comment-7	[12:07]
diana_coman:	congrats BingoBoingo !	[12:24]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: ty	[12:27]
jfw:	diana_coman: ah, indeed – writing by focusing on the journey more than the destination. I'll get on that.	[15:20]
jfw:	I've kept a gales and gentoo system side by side on the desk for a while now; what still keeps me defaulting to the gentoo is mainly X11.	[15:22]
jfw:	just got tripped up by the time change, 5 days in even; will be back at actually-19:00	[15:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: oh huh, why x11? I mean: do you needed for the dev work you do?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	need it*	[16:23]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/27/rmd-week-21-review-mar-23rd-27th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 21 review, Mar 23rd-27th, 2020	[16:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: it's not strictly needed, but I find pasting in particular to be a pain without it	[16:25]
diana_coman:	why/how?	[16:26]
jfw:	maybe my tools just suck? but using tmux or screen as "window manager", it just takes quite a few keystrokes to get a particular thing selected then pasted, compared to 2 mouse clicks	[16:28]
jfw:	this is more noticeable with irc compared to editing code though, to be sure	[16:30]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Mar-2020#1023093 – I'm just about settled here and made progress on priorities. there was soem lingering emergency mode and I dropped my daily reviews. doing the weekly review helped me become aware of that.	[16:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-27 06:25:15 diana_coman: dorion: what happened to you?	[16:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: possibly; but more to the point, a whole x11 for…copy/paste sounds certainly like overkill, no?	[16:32]
diana_coman:	I have x11 ofc and all the bells and whistles for eulora client but otherwise (eg for server-side development) I never needed x11	[16:33]
diana_coman:	it's true it's 20 years since I last used irc without x11 but I don't recall that being a problem at the time either, lol.	[16:34]
jfw:	perhaps it's a situation of "driving the car to pick up the mail from the street just because I can", hm.	[16:35]
jfw:	did you need to paste links or search logs in a browser as much 20 years ago though?	[16:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: at least the 2nd layer of review caught it then, not that bad; (and glad to hear it wasn't anything worse than what sounds like too-much-on-local-plate, anyway)	[16:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: possibly not; though I still wonder how I managed to keep track of all the convos given the format, lolz.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: anyways, I suppose you can easily find out if you really need the x11 – just ditch it for a month and see what solution you find instead, heh.	[16:38]
jfw:	there was a period of this even, pre-Gales when I was building this gentoo as 'recipes' atop a stage3. It did make me more efficient with tmux pasting and some tricks to pipe snippets in/out of vim, but was still a relief once I had the gui back. Open to suggestions on better ways :)	[16:40]
diana_coman:	jfw: isn't the switch kbd/mouse/kbd annoying in itself? (it tends to annoy me and I usually avoid it)	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: why exactly a relief? that would be where you start from to find a solution; better ways to select or what?	[16:43]
jfw:	the switching doesn't annoy me much when it saves time otherwise I guess. Perhaps a higher level to look at is why the 'need' to paste quite so much; maybe it turns out that I'm just trying to accelerate typing 'http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/' or something and there's better ways for that	[16:45]
diana_coman:	or that, indeed; I was just thinking that I actually don't do that much pasting and certainly not at dev time, hm.	[16:46]
jfw:	I don't have a more specific answer for why exactly, than already mentioned; happy to give it another try and observe closer.	[16:48]
dorion:	diana_coman the 2nd layer indeed paid off and I'm back on track now. there is a lot on local plate, but it's all good.	[16:49]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/27/a-review-of-the-bitcoin-category-on-trilemacom/ << Ossa Sepia — A Review of the Bitcoin Category on trilema.com	[16:51]
diana_coman:	dorion, jfw there are quite a few of those articles listed in ^ that you'd benefit from (re-)reading but I especially recommend a read/re-read of http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/27/a-review-of-the-bitcoin-category-on-trilemacom/?b=full\%20solution&e=#select and http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/27/a-review-of-the-bitcoin-category-on-trilemacom/?b=basic\%20point&e=#select	[16:58]
diana_coman:	I mean a read of the articles linked from there, not of my 1-sentence note on them, ofc.	[16:59]
jfw:	thanks for the pointers diana_coman	[17:02]
dorion:	thanks diana_coman, I'm looking forward to reading your review and the underlying texts.	[17:04]
diana_coman:	np	[17:06]
diana_coman:	shall be back tomorrow	[17:13]
jfw:	trinque: deedbot's been out since ping timeout last night	[17:26]
trinque:	jfw: sorry about that; the refactored bot is literally running on a laptop.	[21:03]
trinque:	moving it to permanent home tomorrow.	[21:04]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Mar-2020#1023087 << wasn't aiming to rile anyone up. I wasn't clear on whether he'd done any additional work on the thing.	[21:05]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-27 06:14:37 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-26-Mar-2020#1023081 – trinque , do you realise we already have the same conversation in #trilema before? Here: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958690 ; that is all there is and sure, it's the description of the mechanism rather than the mechanism; if that's not enough, it's still all there currently is.	[21:05]

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#ossasepia Logs for 26 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:41 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/26/jfw-review-march-9-22-2020-part-2/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, March 9 – 22 2020, part 2	[04:16]
billymg:	update on things here: i've been talking to my lawyers about the residency process and learned that the immigration offices are closed until May 17th. additionally, the government just announced that even anyone who is a resident of costa rica (foreigner, not a citizen), no matter for how long, will [lose their residency if they leave the country][https://qcostarica.com/foreigner-residents-who-leave-costa-rica-wi	[12:58]
billymg:	ll-lose-their-residency-status/]. apparently this is unprecedented and law offices are trying to get further clarification	[12:58]
billymg:	https://qcostarica.com/foreigner-residents-who-leave-costa-rica-will-lose-their-residency-status/	[12:58]
billymg:	on top of all that there is now a "dry law" in effect from the santa cruz municipality, apparently due to the "national emergency"	[12:59]
BingoBoingo:	billymg: Well, on the plus side is there somewhere other than Costa Rica where you'd rather ride out this panic?	[13:05]
billymg:	BingoBoingo: honestly, no, which is why i'm nervous at the possibility of it being taken away from me if the madness continues/escalates ("sorry, border's closed kid, time to go home")	[13:09]
billymg:	whaack: is the booze in stores all locked up where you are too?	[13:17]
BingoBoingo:	billymg: Well, on what planes will they see you out?	[13:27]
billymg:	BingoBoingo: lol good point	[13:30]
BingoBoingo:	We're down to just charters and repatriation flights as far as people moving planes go.	[13:31]
billymg:	ah, looks to be similar here https://ticotimes.net/2020/03/21/most-airlines-suspending-flights-to-costa-rica	[13:37]
billymg:	what a mess	[13:37]
BingoBoingo:	It is, but I prefer the shape the mess is taking down here to the one it is taking back in the zone so far.	[13:41]
billymg:	BingoBoingo: absolutely	[13:41]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022944 << if it is pressing to get a patch out soon for server-side selection then perhaps best if someone else took on the task, i've got plenty still to keep me busy here on the finca and tbh my mind lately has been directed towards more immediate/personal concerns	[13:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 17:23:31 jfw: I'll wrap up about WP patches: I can't say who's the source of truth, perhaps billymg but MP spoke to him about the futility of continuing that role.	[13:50]
whaack:	billymg: http://ztkfg.com/2020/03/the-costa-rican-government-has-closed-all-beaches-and-banned-the-sale-of-alcohol/	[14:27]
whaack:	billymg: You can try asking cashiers if they'd be willing to sell you alcohol. Make sure you bring a backpack that they can fill up behind the counter, they will not want to use their own bags for the purpose. If you want booze and have had trouble I can try to do another liquor run.	[14:36]
trinque:	billymg: don't take me as having meant this is more important than sorting your life	[15:13]
trinque:	if you want to huck me a signed tarball of w/e you have, I could take a look	[15:13]
billymg:	trinque: ack, ty. i meant that i had not yet gotten around to starting it, so nothing to share atm	[15:30]
billymg:	whaack: ah, good to know! we'll have to try some small stores then	[15:32]
diana_coman:	trinque, billymg: is there some mp-wp code that is not already published or why is now talk of signed tarballs all of a sudden?	[16:19]
diana_coman:	I get the impression trinque is looking for some mystical mp-wp code that never was really; as far as I know there's the V-tree of mp-wp that billymg has on his site and otherwise MP's article on trilema and that's all there is.	[16:20]
jfw:	diana_coman: been sitting on the following question a bit but as there's no gain in silence I'll have it out: if you've had a chance to consider it yet, how do you interpret http://trilema.com/2019/so-i-was-thinking/#comment-148004 and specifically 'take my advice and do not ever indulge in the activity depicted. It is infinitely better to shoot any "smart" bois you run into on the spot than to	[16:33]
jfw:	indulge them with a view to maybe helping. There is no fucking helping, shoot them all outright directly.' ? Is there a difference between the sort of help he advises against and what you're going for here?	[16:33]
jfw:	It's not out of character for his "slaps", to be sure, but seems to quite close off any possibility of recovery or improvement.	[16:34]
jfw:	I haven't fully digested the thread it follows fwiw.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: the problems you make for yourself, seriously.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: listen, do you want to go away? then go away, I won't chase you or anything; is that what you are asking?	[16:36]
jfw:	Not so long as there's value in staying, which I quite think there is.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	so then what exactly are you concerned with there? whether I'm wasting my own time? whether I'm going to (or whether I should rather) shoot you or what?	[16:39]
diana_coman:	whether MP will?	[16:40]
diana_coman:	whether you are exactly the sort of "boi" he talks about?	[16:40]
diana_coman:	what, are you entirely out of things to spin on so you finally found a mighty one to keep you from doing anything, is that it?	[16:41]
jfw:	I don't surmise the "shooting" is literal. and yeah, I trust you to manage your own time, so, not sure.	[16:41]
jfw:	I don't know if I'm the sort he talks about.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: to put it plainly, it is none of your business really; ie sure, it is a warning and perhaps a warning I should heed; but I don't quite have to explain what/if about it.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: you know, if you are then you are and if you aren't then you aren't and in either case spinning about it will do nothing at all.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	that part with do more and spin less, seriously.	[16:43]
jfw:	diana_coman: right, right. no end of practice for me on that apparently.	[16:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: to be perfectly clear – I still think it's good you asked the question since you were wasting time on it; should have asked earlier and wasted even less; but it's quite stupid for you to waste time on it to start with.	[16:46]
jfw:	aha, figured that was it but thanks for clarifying.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	you're welcome.	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: since we uncovered that need for more practice – what are you actually doing today?	[16:52]
jfw:	looking into local health insurance, V work and writing that up are at the top of the list.	[16:54]
diana_coman:	looking forward to reading that write-up of V work soon enough then.	[16:55]
jfw:	alright	[16:56]
diana_coman:	lobbes: what happened to you?	[17:05]
billymg:	diana_coman: re: mp-wp i'm guessing he just thought i had already started on something for the server-side selection task (which is a reasonable assumption). but yes, the only incomplete work is the embeddable code draft vpatch (which is published)	[19:49]
trinque:	diana_coman: there's the patches, and whatever selection mechanism everyone bitches every time I don't have.	[19:51]
trinque:	have former, want latter.	[19:51]

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#ossasepia Logs for 25 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:31 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/25/jfw-review-march-9-22-2020-part-1/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, March 9 – 22 2020, part 1	[03:44]
jfw:	and otherwise, I've got a "better late than never, right?" recipe cooking for keccak-V on Gales.	[03:49]
diana_coman:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-24#1000361 – trinque, do you mean that you plan to head an OS project?	[05:10]
ossabot:	(trinque) 2020-03-24 trinque: hey gents, lets hold any further OS discussion here, if any further OS discussion shall be had.	[05:10]
diana_coman:	mike_c I've set the flags so ChanServ voices you automatically on join; come in whenever convenient for any talk.	[05:12]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: Eulora is on, has been on, will be on. What was/is the question?	[05:12]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022817 – good idea!	[05:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 03:49:15 jfw: and otherwise, I've got a "better late than never, right?" recipe cooking for keccak-V on Gales.	[05:14]
diana_coman:	mike_c the reason why "it has to be so hard to talk" is that a. idiots b. no infrastructure because nobody left to own it.	[05:18]
diana_coman:	mike_c and no, it's actually not hard at all – you can just pm me and ask, not like I don't answer people now or something.	[05:19]
diana_coman:	and now it even occured to me that #eulora is also on and moreover it has no voice restriction and I'm there too and it's supposedly more appropriate for talks about eulora etc; so uhm, how is it "hard" to talk on irc again?	[07:34]
trinque:	diana_coman: I just put a lot of work into said infrastructure based upon http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-15#1000239	[10:22]
ossabot:	(trinque) 2020-03-15 diana_coman: trinque: meant to say: yes please, I want deedbot with the wot centered on channel owner.	[10:22]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022818 << I want to resolve the busybox-uber-alles question, and then proceed as we were.	[10:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 05:10:31 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-24#1000361 – trinque, do you mean that you plan to head an OS project?	[10:23]
trinque:	really don't care if it's called gales or what, so long as it's ideologically consistent	[10:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: all right; I'll take your word for it then and therefore subscribe to your deedbot service; can it be made so that it allows self-voice in #ossasepia to those in my L1 with ratings > 2?	[11:11]
diana_coman:	trinque: the above re deedbot; re OS, I think it's not even the busybox-uber-alles the first question to sort out, but a much more fundamental one.	[11:15]
diana_coman:	and no, it's not about "what it's called" but about who actually owns it; just like with the infrastructure really.	[11:17]
diana_coman:	trinque: also, re subscribe, please invoice for 1 year, don't really want to look at it every month.	[11:19]
diana_coman:	trinque: re "put a lot of work into", do note that in itself that doesn't mean that there IS infrastructure; hence my above "there isn't because nobody left to own it" + "I'll take your word for it" (that you mean to own it, not just "put a lot of work into it")	[11:22]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It's about the wiki mike_c is still hosting	[11:39]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: so hopefully he comes in and asks a question, so I can …answer it, ok?	[11:43]
diana_coman:	I have no idea what about that wiki.	[11:43]
BingoBoingo:	ok	[11:44]
mike_c:	hey diana_coman	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 51 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Your are cordially invited to GPGgram details of your situation to me or come into #agriculturalsupremacy and get me up to speed on your situation in a logged channel.	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 51 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> This is a high risk case, and it presents an especially high danger for anyone arguing it on your behalf. My greatest asset is my WoT position, and should I argue your case and recover the coin… The argument that will have won your coin will present a risk to my WoT position if it is later found to be bad precedent.	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 50 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> I am willing to argue your case. Without your providing more details the cost structure is as follows: 35 BTC up front, 10 BTC to be refunded if my argument on your behalf loses. The best way for you to start negotiating this price downward is starting a conversation about the case in #agriculturalsupremacy	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 20 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Since the discussion appears ready [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-17#1955528] [to happen sooner rather than later] I give you the option of sending 35BTC to 15eVXAW7k8uKc5moDFUSc9Y3jmHFAenNXo as a retainer. As it is 2019 I'll assume 35 BTC arriving at the address is yours and not someone else's misfire.	[13:31]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-12-17 mp_en_viaje: so… i think it's high time we have a conversation about it, and a l1 consultus on the topic, and so forth. what, exactly, is the negrated to get from the republic ? and why ? and wherefore ?	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, and 37 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Here's the strategy and why it is your best shot at recovering your coin http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7sEi	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, and 53 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1955992 and http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jB2s	[13:31]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-12-23 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jB2s	[13:31]
lobbesbot:	mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, and 13 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1956002	[13:31]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-12-23 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=LM6J	[13:31]
mike_c:	the question is whether you care if the wiki at eulorum.org continues to exist	[13:32]
mike_c:	from reading the logs, it sounds like no, so I'll just turn it off.	[13:43]
diana_coman:	mike_c lol, that was quick fire, wasn't it? The eulorum.org wiki was/is your interest and project so not sure I follow there your reasoning on it. Anyways, to put it plainly: I'd certainly like it if there was someone who finds it useful to run a Eulora wiki; this does not mean that I'm going to rescue or run any/every wiki myself, so no, it's not a matter of me "caring". I've carried a child to term and many other things too, …	[14:09]
diana_coman:	… certainly, but websites are not on my list for that sort of thing, no.	[14:09]
diana_coman:	hoefully the caring/carrying link is clear enough above for the logs too.	[14:16]
diana_coman:	I must add that I find the whole thing overall rather weird; if one wants to shut down a site they run, I could see it as a courtesy to ask people if they want perhaps a dump/mirror and/or the domain, sure; but I haven't seen such question and the "do you care" question is quite a different sort of thing.	[14:20]
diana_coman:	that being said, I expect anyone who cared indeed, already made their own mirrors of the content; and if they didn't, perhaps they'll learn from it and make it next time they find something they care about.	[14:20]
mike_c:	You seem sensitive to my use of the word "care" and to be taking offense at a simple question. Given your investment in the project, I didn't want to shutter it if you did want to keep it going.	[14:52]
mike_c:	I certainly don't care if you have no interest it. it's not my baby, I just helped get it stood up many years ago.	[14:53]
mike_c:	In any case, I put a shutdown notice up and will close it in a few months.	[14:53]
diana_coman:	mike_c no offense taken at all, no worries there; I suppose we can chuck it to some miscommunication (and it's possibly not surprising given that it's for some reason not happening as a conversation at all but anyways).	[15:06]
diana_coman:	mike_c out of curiosity if you don't mind me asking – why now rather than at ~any other point in those many past years? since you say you never really had interest in it, it was just that you helped get it stood up at some point and nothing more.	[15:08]
diana_coman:	trinque: I'd appreciate your answer re deedbot question and perhaps a talk re OS because it seems to me, upon re-reading your earlier statement that we are not quite on the same page there.	[16:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 10:23:54 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022818 << I want to resolve the busybox-uber-alles question, and then proceed as we were.	[16:26]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022832 << this can be done, but is a divergence from the old #t model, where L2 can self-voice. what I can do is generalize, such that there are params per-channel for the threshold for l1 and l2, which in your case sounds like it'd be (2, null)	[16:49]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 11:11:16 diana_coman: trinque: all right; I'll take your word for it then and therefore subscribe to your deedbot service; can it be made so that it allows self-voice in #ossasepia to those in my L1 with ratings > 2?	[16:49]
diana_coman:	trinque: was it meant to self-voice even with a rating of 1?	[16:49]
diana_coman:	I somehow recall there was a threshold higher than 0 really, uhm.	[16:49]
trinque:	what I'm trying to clarify is if you want your l2 able to self-voice	[16:50]
trinque:	in #t they could.	[16:50]
trinque:	but what I propose above will let you make this decision however you like	[16:50]
trinque:	upstack, yes, I own deedbot and will continue to behave as though I do.	[16:51]
trinque:	per my previously expressed definition of ownership.	[16:51]
trinque:	regarding the OS, I do not have the capacity to own such a thing at the level of commitment I can give the bot, which is to say I'm not prepared to support customers/users on such a project.	[16:52]
trinque:	I understood dorion and jfw to be the ones doing that, actually.	[16:52]
trinque:	I am still prepared to answer their questions, and when work with deedbot is parked, to complete the series.	[16:53]
trinque:	I agree that we all need shared priors before any of this is worthwhile, which is why I'm around to discuss, hoping to achieve taht.	[16:53]
trinque:	*that	[16:53]
diana_coman:	trinque: indeed re OS but the change of context with TMSR closure means that they have to support indeed fully the OS if they find a space & resources for it	[16:53]
trinque:	I don't see that TMSR was doing much to support it before, was it?	[16:54]
diana_coman:	so not quite the same way in the sense that some important support did fall out from under the project	[16:54]
diana_coman:	hm, you don't?	[16:54]
trinque:	some test builds or w/e, but I didn't get much lift out of anyone on cuntoo other than that.	[16:54]
trinque:	ftr I am banging on about busybox because I firmly believe we can achieve something self-hosting and usable with available hands, provided we are draconian about complexity-creep	[16:55]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, I had in mind the more important support of being able to ask for resources that would have been available once a clear plan of attracting contributors or the like was in place, for instance; also, quite some expertise re management and so on; no, I don't mean "more people coding" or the like	[16:55]
trinque:	I recall trying to offer management advice to pizarro and it was like pissing in the wind	[16:56]
diana_coman:	trinque: let's sort out re deedbot first as it's possibly faster to sort out	[16:56]
trinque:	but I'm still chapped about all that.	[16:56]
trinque:	sure	[16:56]
diana_coman:	trinque: I can't seem to recall exactly or find that previous def of ownership you referenced; would you mind terribly linking it for me or stating it again?	[16:57]
trinque:	http://trinque.org/2019/12/29/a-republican-os-part-2/#selection-63.0-20.11	[16:58]
diana_coman:	uh, now I see why it didn't come to mind, hm; (and huh, do you prefer that old selection mechanism despite its breakage across browsers?)	[16:59]
trinque:	nope, just prefer to ration my work, and still don't know where the source of truth is for wp patches.	[17:00]
trinque:	I am also running on a mpwp patched to run on a php not riddled with public security holes.	[17:01]
diana_coman:	trinque: the disconnect here is that your definition of ownership seems focused on tool handling basically.	[17:02]
trinque:	that dead nazi really made an impact on me, I guess	[17:03]
trinque:	clears his throat	[17:03]
trinque:	what do you see missing?	[17:03]
diana_coman:	lol? I'm missing your reference there	[17:03]
trinque:	heidegger was a nazi-era german	[17:04]
diana_coman:	ah, true (not the only one!!) lolz	[17:04]
jfw:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958702 – thread which is about as clear as it'll get on where & why for the selection patch	[17:05]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-01 mp_en_viaje: i practically have the choice of either publishing a screamingly offensive non-patch in november of 2019, or else wait until there's a place to meaningfully add it as a patch ; which necessarily is stalled on "what the fuck is the correct cut for themes, cuz it seems evident it isn't what's now done", which in turn rests on a half dozen or so more nodes that are all further away from what is actually being worked now.	[17:05]
trinque:	yeah what I proposed is putting it in one of the funcs called by all themes, like "getHeader" or w/e it is	[17:06]
diana_coman:	trinque: what I see missing there is… hm, governance I suppose, as opposed to technology; (so hm, I guess I'm setting the French against the German here)	[17:06]
trinque:	it's in there, just subtle maybe.	[17:07]
trinque:	I own my hand like I own deedbot. I'm cutting off neither.	[17:07]
jfw:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958759 – the problem with get_header if I parsed correctly, though I haven't checked the code.	[17:08]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-02 mp_en_viaje: trinque, the problem with your proposal is that the article isn't yet loaded at that point.	[17:08]
diana_coman:	trinque: sure; but unlike your own hand, deedbot can be grown and has a whole context of operation that you may or may not aim to make your turf as well, no matter how small the steps.	[17:08]
trinque:	jfw: there are ways in JS to trap "page is fully loaded" quite easily	[17:08]
trinque:	diana_coman: it'd be helpful for you to share your vision there.	[17:09]
trinque:	jfw: or obviously, just stick in getFooter instead	[17:09]
diana_coman:	anyways, as I already said, given your previous track record of operating deedbot, I'm totally fine to take your word for it that indeed, you plan to run it as a service and own it as such.	[17:09]
diana_coman:	trinque: helpful for me?	[17:10]
trinque:	I mean what expansion do you see as obvious and needed, if any	[17:10]
trinque:	or do you mean maintaining present context, or what?	[17:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: the whole point of owning something is that the owner sees and decides on those…	[17:10]
trinque:	listen, you alluded to some, and I was just asking what those were.	[17:11]
trinque:	as for what I see, the thing is going through a vast decrufting, and integration with the stuff running wot.deedbot.org	[17:11]
diana_coman:	trinque: lol, so ask as such then, because if you go about it in roundabout ways, I won't get it, no.	[17:11]
trinque:	I fucked myself with the microservices approach and ended up with way too much overhead, blocked all sorts of improvements.	[17:12]
trinque:	tone is hard in text, anyway.	[17:12]
trinque:	but yes, I include "continue to maintain and improve" in ownership just like a garden, or my toenails	[17:12]
diana_coman:	well, I had no idea re the above, for starters; and yes, I am aware that I don't know the details, hence why I don't go about with "proposals" because wtf proposals like this from outside	[17:12]
trinque:	it was just a matter of respect for your opinion, anyway I get it.	[17:13]
diana_coman:	trinque: appreciated then (and honestly, I didn't get it earlier; perhaps I'm tired today too but it is what it is)	[17:14]
diana_coman:	trinque: re l2 and deviations, I went and checked again the ref and I don't see how /where I deviate from it really	[17:14]
diana_coman:	it's not saying "rated > 0"	[17:14]
diana_coman:	the channel's l1 is owner's rated 9 even (iirc this was lowered on consideration/discussion) and this is what I said I thought to be basically 3 or above; I'm fine with various numbers between 3 and 9 really	[17:15]
diana_coman:	then l2 is nicks rated by l1 as 2 or above and no negatives – that again is fine with me, as stated there	[17:16]
diana_coman:	basically – I'm fine if you set some numbers but please set them to something that allows me to rate newcomers without having to hand them the full keys to the channel; does this make sense?	[17:17]
trinque:	totally makes sense, we were talking past one-another before.	[17:17]
trinque:	let me work an example to make sure.	[17:17]
diana_coman:	listens	[17:17]
trinque:	lets say you rate jfw 3, and he rates jfws_droog 2. jfws_droog can self-voice.	[17:19]
diana_coman:	fine with me	[17:19]
trinque:	great, and it's reasonable enough I think it should not be configurable for now.	[17:19]
trinque:	I'll build that in this weekend.	[17:19]
diana_coman:	trinque: ok, then ping me on it once it's all available; is 1 year fine?	[17:21]
trinque:	yep, works.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	k, so that's hopefully cleared up; back to the OS thread, let me fish it out	[17:21]
jfw:	I'll wrap up about WP patches: I can't say who's the source of truth, perhaps billymg but MP spoke to him about the futility of continuing that role.	[17:23]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-25-Mar-2020#1022887 – you know, I actually also remember this and fwiw I'm still annoyed that happened as it did; what can I say, there are things that annoy me even to just witness;	[17:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 16:56:24 trinque: I recall trying to offer management advice to pizarro and it was like pissing in the wind	[17:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it comes back to my earlier nobody left to own it	[17:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-25 05:18:53 diana_coman: mike_c the reason why "it has to be so hard to talk" is that a. idiots b. no infrastructure because nobody left to own it.	[17:24]
jfw:	trinque: if you wrote a patch to do server-side selection outside the theme, I would certainly test & use it, though would be low priority atm. I'd quite like to get my own deployment into something that can press from vpatches rather than snapshot of php files.	[17:24]
trinque:	people are invited to react to futility however they like	[17:24]
trinque:	staying alive is also futile	[17:24]
trinque:	diana_coman: I was fucking infuriated.	[17:25]
trinque:	but anyhow, yes.	[17:25]
diana_coman:	trinque: that being said re the experience with pizarro, I don't think it's really sane to take experiences from one context to another quite that directly/fully	[17:25]
diana_coman:	basically dorion and jfw have nothing to do with your experience with pizarro, after all.	[17:26]
diana_coman:	anyways, regardless of that even, the fact of the matter is that the OS can't currently just be considered "as it was"	[17:27]
trinque:	agree with both.	[17:27]
trinque:	yet one has to learn, and not tread the same ground "differently"	[17:28]
trinque:	I think you just said the same thing.	[17:28]
diana_coman:	and the way I see it, they first have quite some work to do to get jwrd in a position to push a whole OS, regardless of what that is	[17:28]
jfw:	^ agree 100\%.	[17:29]
dorion:	diana_coman I agree as well.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	basically whether there will be an OS or not depends on whether there is anyone capable to head it and the fact that currently the only "volunteer" (by virtue of hm, not having stepped back rather than anything else) is dorion doesn't mean that he has no choice in the matter, wtf	[17:29]
trinque:	maybe we let things stabilize a bit.	[17:30]
trinque:	I am very glad to see the capacity of jwrd being considered.	[17:30]
trinque:	I would also be immensely glad to see it increased to the scope of an OS.	[17:30]
jfw:	I know I have some outstanding questions to dig on such as "where exactly did bb ash not work" that I just can't get to right now. At the same time, it would help to get answers to some I asked such as what version of busybox should we be looking at / why	[17:32]
diana_coman:	ie if he heads it, then a. he gets to decide what & when & where & with whom should move, for the very good reason that he would have also the whole plan and reason why for all of that b. he is not going to go around having conversations wherever because that's not going to be of much help moving things either	[17:32]
diana_coman:	trinque: basically that's why I was surprised earlier and asked if you planned to head an OS effort – because the moment you ask for future conversations on the OS to happen in your chan, I gather you want to head it; I don't quite get how/why it's better otherwise to have them there.	[17:33]
trinque:	there's an it I've got on my desk, and an it they've got on theirs. not clear right now if/how they merge.	[17:34]
diana_coman:	trinque: is the it on your desk cuntoo? I know the it on their desk (gales) and I have it installed on a laptop here; I have cuntoo installed on a box too; I don't have/know of anything else though so can't comment at all on that sort of "it"	[17:35]
trinque:	nah, cuntoo is trash due to the gentoo lineage.	[17:37]
trinque:	I've got pieces of a busybox item, not fit for publishing yet.	[17:37]
trinque:	they are more or less at the same level the blog series is at.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	trinque: you see, this is seriously a sort of thing I don't quite get; on one hand you say – understandably – that you don't want to put effort into something that isn't going anywhere; fine, I agree; on the other hand and at the same time, you do put effort into all sorts that remain then – or so it seems – hanging in various stages	[17:39]
trinque:	not all my life is up for review.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	I can't make any sense of this	[17:39]
diana_coman:	trinque: sure, not asking for that sort of review either, not at all.	[17:39]
trinque:	are you asking what motivates me, what?	[17:39]
diana_coman:	trinque: no	[17:39]
trinque:	not following.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	trinque: seriously, I'm not even asking for anything (I meant it earlier that I'm done asking); I just want to make something clear: either there's something concrete published and then it can be discussed or there isn't and then there is nothing to discuss; does this make sense?	[17:40]
trinque:	I took it that the gents wanted me consulting with them on their project.	[17:41]
trinque:	I never stopped the project I began when mp asked me.	[17:41]
diana_coman:	my observation above was that from where I see it, if you put in some work (be it notes /drafts stages), then it's of most benefit to you to finish them and publish them, regardless of anything else; apparently you take a different view on this though and ok, it's your choice, no problem for me.	[17:41]
trinque:	I kill all kinds of babies that never leave the house.	[17:42]
trinque:	I will consider going forward whether this is useful.	[17:42]
diana_coman:	trinque: I think everyone clearly stated they found your series (hence your consulting on the topic) very useful indeed and they had indeed no reason to believe that the series will not proceed as you said initially yourself it would; that being said, it's your series and your choice, ofc, what.	[17:44]
trinque:	recall I was fired from the thing.	[17:44]
trinque:	whatever you want to call it.	[17:44]
diana_coman:	trinque: hm?	[17:44]
trinque:	mp kicked me off the OS thing as I was making preparations, and apparently too slowly.	[17:45]
dorion:	trinque, I asked you to join the conversation because you had said you were working on busybox+kernel distro and we're working on pretty much the same, so why not work together ?	[17:45]
trinque:	dorion: no argument to the contrary.	[17:45]
trinque:	in fact I stepped away entirely and said have at it, and this also pissed off mp.	[17:45]
trinque:	I am now putting together the pieces, in order, as I can.	[17:45]
trinque:	dorion: I would love to see something viable.	[17:46]
diana_coman:	trinque: MP kicked you off the OS thing because nobody could even tell wtf you were doing or even IF you were doing anything; and honestly, I couldn't have said what you were doing or if indeed anything related to the os.	[17:46]
trinque:	the idea of preparing such a thing in even a quarter is absurd, but lets leave it.	[17:47]
diana_coman:	trinque: the idea of communicating what you plan to do – is that absurd too?	[17:47]
diana_coman:	this reminds me way too much of this: http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/	[17:47]
trinque:	I really dislike it when someone runs ahead of me and speaks for me.	[17:48]
diana_coman:	trinque: where did that happen?	[17:48]
trinque:	I consider myself a pretty precise communicator, but perhaps it only appears that way from in here.	[17:48]
dorion:	trinque, the plan right now is to use gales to make jwrd viable. slowly think about how gales can be terraformed to be Vtronic.	[17:49]
trinque:	diana_coman: plans grade into hubris, and it's not always clear where hubris overtakes.	[17:50]
diana_coman:	trinque: I'm afraid it is indeed the case that I don't see that precise communicator from here.	[17:50]
trinque:	I do not recall saying this makes planning pointless.	[17:50]
trinque:	at the time under discussion, I was planning, and yes not publishing a plan to plan, which seems bureaucratic as all hell.	[17:51]
diana_coman:	I didn't say you claimed that, no; all I said was that I had no idea of even what your plans were – or indeed if you had any plans at all; understand that silence is just ??? from the other side, ie it can be anything.	[17:52]
trinque:	in late december I sustained a severe concussion, and didn't bring it up, because the last person to get injured on the job was phf, who was summarily dismissed.	[17:52]
diana_coman:	no, not a plan to plan; but a short talk in chan eg "I'm thinking of doing this, any comments/ideas"? this sort of thing	[17:52]
diana_coman:	dunno why it has to go like this from one extreme to another	[17:52]
diana_coman:	trinque: do you seriously think the reason was the fact that he got injured?	[17:53]
trinque:	I understood this to be the reason he was afk for a while.	[17:53]
diana_coman:	but you know, funnily enough the real trouble there was still communication (lack of it), not the injury itself; ugh.	[17:54]
trinque:	injury could've precluded it.	[17:54]
trinque:	but regardless I see the point you are making.	[17:54]
diana_coman:	I think it was even said explicitly that communication as short as "guys, my man is injured" from any connected party would have served amply	[17:55]
trinque:	anyhow, in january I was pretty damned injured, and there were subsequent legal matters to attend to, as it was not officer clint eastwood who arrived to buy me a beer for defending myself.	[17:58]
diana_coman:	anyways, hopefully now some things at least cleared up and won't get clogged back again.	[17:58]
trinque:	sure.	[17:58]
trinque:	(incidentally pretty fucking sad for texas)	[17:59]
diana_coman:	admits to be still rather baffled at the uncovered amount of misunderstanding/incompatibility in #t and all that.	[18:00]
diana_coman:	anyways; re the OS, hopefully the current status is a bit more clear to, ie not just "moving as it were" and certainly not any priority right now	[18:01]
trinque:	totally on the same page there.	[18:02]
trinque:	and I won't take it as a reason not to write when I can.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	cool then; glad to hear it on both counts.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[18:50]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 24 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:21 pm

jfw:	diana_coman: I'm starting to feel like a broken record, and hating that; because I find I'm headed for failure again on the review. Or arguably failed already. I have the driest and tamest of notes on what happened when; not really the substance of a useful review.	[02:54]
jfw:	and otherwise been sitting at the desk doing pretty much nothing. not sure if it's more of that uncaring numbness, or perhaps the perfectionism as it seems more important than ever to look properly at these weeks given all that went down. possibly all of the above – would that even be possible? lol	[03:03]
jfw:	[15min of spinning later] I know failing has its costs and you must be taking "I'll do it by tonight" from me with quite the grain of salt by now, and that hurts, no numbness on that score at least.	[03:20]
jfw:	I'm calling it for the night but what I'll plan on unless you have a better idea is to break it down by time range or topic and do it in multiple parts if necessary to get something out daily.	[03:24]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-24-Mar-2020#1022798 – all right, do that then and let's see it.	[05:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-24 03:24:26 jfw: I'm calling it for the night but what I'll plan on unless you have a better idea is to break it down by time range or topic and do it in multiple parts if necessary to get something out daily.	[05:14]
whaack:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Mar-2020#1022725 http://ztkfg.com/2020/03/the-costa-rican-government-has-closed-all-beaches-and-banned-the-sale-of-alcohol/ They put up some tape on 1 of the many entrances to the beach lol. And I think that yes every once in a while a police officer goes for a walk along the beach kicking out the 1-2 people there, but this is only hearsay / my	[14:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-23 04:49:41 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022715 – lmao; are they going to patrol the beaches too? or how exactly will they keep you out? (/me notes she would go every day for a swim for the trol factor, it's just too much asking for it)	[14:16]
whaack:	imagination.	[14:16]
dorion:	diana_coman , jfw I've been knocking off the writing rust in getting back to the sales article. I remain on track to share the draft before tomorrow at 19 UTC.	[16:26]
jfw:	dorion: good luck de-rusting!	[16:30]
diana_coman:	dorion: cool then	[16:34]
diana_coman:	jfw: how's your own version of rust ?	[16:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: might need some heavier abrasives but I'll push through it.	[16:36]
jfw:	got review and blog articles to move on.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	aha; ok.	[16:38]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/24/spraying-mandelbrotian-graffiti-on-euloran-surfaces/ << Ossa Sepia — Spraying Mandelbrotian Graffiti on Euloran Surfaces	[17:19]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: tyvm for being the first commenter on the new thing!	[23:11]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: you're welcome, it's an honor!	[23:17]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: mike_c returned with a question about eulorum.org, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-24#1009331	[23:54]
snsabot:	(asciilifeform) 2020-03-24 mike_c: Ok – well, if you're inclined, ask her if she has any interest in eulorum.org or if I should just shut if off	[23:54]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 23 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:10 pm

diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022713 – glad to hear it!	[04:48]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-22 18:57:31 dorion: made it to vermont.	[04:48]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022715 – lmao; are they going to patrol the beaches too? or how exactly will they keep you out? (/me notes she would go every day for a swim for the trol factor, it's just too much asking for it)	[04:49]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-22 20:31:39 whaack: In coronavirus beach news: police are kicking surfers out of the water around here.	[04:49]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/jfw-plan-week-of-23-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 23 Mar. 2020	[05:02]
dorion:	diana_coman I've been settling and working on my review and plan this morning, will have them published by 19 UTC.	[13:00]
dorion:	hits publish on review, will take 15 minutes to polish plan.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	time relativity in action!	[16:28]
diana_coman:	since that weekend is long gone and clearly enthdegree doesn't need any voice anyway.	[16:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 16:22:01 enthdegree: Will be around more this weekend	[16:30]
cruciform:	jfw, dorion, I'd love to discuss http://dorion-mode.com/2019/11/jwrd-computing-the-why-how-what-and-way-forward/ when you have a moment	[16:33]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/rmd-review-week-20-mar-14th-22nd-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD review week 20, Mar 14th-22nd 2020	[16:33]
diana_coman:	thimbronion: as far as I see it, you are quite happy focusing exclusively on writing for qntra and learning from BingoBoingo; I have no problem with this and so no reason to negrate or anything of the sort but it's also nothing to do with yh, so I'll consider that you are effectively getting off the yh program at this stage, no problem with that.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: when will you publish your review?	[16:38]
jfw:	Hi there cruciform. I gather you're interested in a more secure environment and better understanding of it for using bitcoin, and possibly programming too, is that right?	[16:38]
jfw:	diana_coman: by tonight	[16:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: works.	[16:39]
cruciform:	jfw, exactly that – I've read the aforementioned blog post – seems like a good fit?	[16:40]
jfw:	cruciform: have you used the command line much on that ubuntu machine or otherwise? It's fine either way, just getting a sense of where you're starting.	[16:40]
cruciform:	jfw, not much at all, no – and when I did, it was just copypasta of Googled guides, without knowing what I was doing	[16:41]
jfw:	cruciform: right. So we cover all the basics there from navigating the filesystem, editing text files, inspecting the system, doing backups, network setup, building software, configuring bitcoind, GPG keys and so on.	[16:44]
cruciform:	jfw, have you had a totally-remote client yet (I'm in Airstrip One)?	[16:45]
jfw:	We also provide a hardware solution supporting airgapping and random number generation. No, so far our emphasis has been in-person training, but we've been looking to expand to a more virtual setup and the current situation demands it indeed.	[16:46]
jfw:	it's a great start that you're already on IRC.	[16:47]
cruciform:	jfw, sounds good; I note that you've targeted clients with a net worth >0m – with pricing reflecting that – are those rates negotiable?	[16:50]
jfw:	As far as programming, it hasn't been our focus so far – although one advantage of the command line is blurring the line somewhat between "user" and "developer" – though we could either develop new lessons or just answer questions, depending on your level of commitment.	[16:50]
dorion:	hello, good afternoon/evening all.	[16:51]
cruciform:	jfw, wrt programming, I'm not sure I want to be a programmer yet; though I'm definitely interested in the secure hardware/software for proper Bitcoin use!	[16:52]
jfw:	cruciform: dorion can speak better on pricing but the basic idea is US 0k for the hardware kit and training, which includes about 25 90-minute sessions and independent exercises.	[16:53]
cruciform:	jfw, got a link to an example lesson; reviews from clients?	[16:54]
jfw:	cruciform: cool, and you'll definitely end up with a more constructive environment and skills to build toward programming if you so choose later.	[16:54]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/rmd-week-21-plan-mar-23rd-27th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 21 plan, Mar 23rd-27th 2020	[16:54]
jfw:	dorion: do we have such a review, or could we introduce him to a past client as reference?	[16:57]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Mar-2020#1022747 – the pricing reflects what we value the service to be. The ideal client profile reflects who we prefer to work with.	[16:58]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-23 16:50:21 cruciform: jfw, sounds good; I note that you've targeted clients with a net worth >0m – with pricing reflecting that – are those rates negotiable?	[16:58]
jfw:	cruciform: much of the lesson content is "live" but I could send you an example outline.	[16:59]
dorion:	jfw, cruciform, I don't think we've published an example lesson, but that can be done rather quickly. We don't have a written review by a client yet.	[16:59]
cruciform:	jfw, dorion, I'd be interested in seeing both; seems it'd be a good thing to have published anyway, neh?	[17:00]
dorion:	cruciform, for sure.	[17:01]
cruciform:	dorion, great – I'll be in touch once I've seen 'em :)	[17:01]
dorion:	cruciform, regarding negotiation, on thing we're working on is breaking the curriculum into modules and accepting payment per module.	[17:05]
cruciform:	dorion, sounds good; I'd be interested in seeing a per-unit price breakdwon	[17:05]
dorion:	cruciform, cool.	[17:09]
dorion:	cruciform, jfw will get you the outline, I'll get you the per module pricing, and I'll give you an update on the written review after I've spoken with client that completed the lessons.	[17:11]
jfw:	cruciform: we're a bit busy with getting settled in at new locations now, but I expect we can have these to you by Sunday and will ping you here if that changes.	[17:12]
cruciform:	dorion, jfw great, thanks!	[17:13]
dorion:	cruciform, thank you! and I read your plan on yh, looks like you have a fun week ahead of you.	[17:15]
dorion:	cruciform, a yh protip : check the category of your article prior to publishing ;)	[17:17]
jfw:	dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022710 :D	[17:17]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-22 18:51:51 cruciform: diana_coman, "derp" seems appropriate, at least for now ;)	[17:17]
dorion:	jfw yeah, shows I wasn't logged up.	[17:22]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022714 – thank you.	[17:22]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-22 19:02:59 whaack: dorion and jfw: good to hear you're back at your roots safe and sound.	[17:22]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-22-Mar-2020#1022719 – thanks.	[17:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-22 21:07:25 BingoBoingo: jfw dorion: Good to hear your transits passed smoothly	[17:23]
jfw:	…and I was logged up in passive mode apparently; ty gents.	[17:25]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-23-Mar-2020#1022769 it's been fun so far (nothwithstanding derpitude)!	[17:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-23 17:15:40 dorion: cruciform, thank you! and I read your plan on yh, looks like you have a fun week ahead of you.	[17:27]
dorion:	cruciform, nice, enjoy. confronting the derpitude is part of the process.	[17:31]
diana_coman:	cruciform: did you use irc before venturing into #t in 2017 or when was it@	[17:32]
diana_coman:	?	[17:32]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I used it way back in ~2003; not since	[17:33]
diana_coman:	ah, pretty much the previous relative peak of use, yes; hm; I wonder what/why is so otherwise ~dead, but anyways.	[17:34]
cruciform:	diana_coman, why do you ask?	[17:35]
diana_coman:	cruciform: I'm considering getting younger people in and they are totally never-heard-of-irc.	[17:37]
cruciform:	diana_coman, Ah; none of my peers know of it, either; 2003-me heard of it through a RuneScape forum	[17:39]
diana_coman:	ha, runescape!	[17:40]
jfw:	Medium-younger ones have probably used jabber/xmpp but know it as "gchat" and only via Google; while the youngest are perhaps further stuck in the "mobile apps" bubble.	[17:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: yeah; well, at the rate it's going, it might be anyways that I end up with 8 year olds or something – at least they are very happy indeed to learn and -if anything- I have trouble making them leave the house, not getting them to come; in the long run and all that, lolz.	[17:43]
thimbronion:	diana_coman: that makes sense to me.	[18:10]
diana_coman:	thimbronion: glad to hear it.	[18:10]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[18:19]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 22 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 9:00 pm

diana_coman:	trinque: ah, I hadn't realised the split of tasks between drunk&deed bots; do you plan to publish some docs & roadmap re those bots and/or whatever services you offer through them?	[05:14]
diana_coman:	whaack: that "weird foam" on leaves/trees is most likely the traces of "spittlebugs".	[05:27]
whaack:	diana_coman: ah ty, I'm glad I didn't touch it after reading about how spittlebugs make those bubbles	[14:55]
diana_coman:	lobbes: did you have anything on the agenda for today's talk?	[16:16]
diana_coman:	whaack: are you happy in the end with the stalling/spinning or what?	[16:17]
jfw:	made it to the fallback castle, and was not given a cooties test	[16:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: oh hey, congrats!	[16:33]
jfw:	ty diana_coman. dorion should be fine too, just has the longer leg on ground transit.	[16:35]
jfw:	the flight out of panama was packed; the connecting flight within US pretty light	[16:36]
diana_coman:	kind of to be expected, no?	[16:36]
diana_coman:	I suppose it's good that there still are connecting flights within US, huh	[16:37]
jfw:	I wasn't sure what to expect, e.g. some were cancelling flights while others booked	[16:37]
diana_coman:	confusion, what else to expect!	[16:38]
diana_coman:	lolz	[16:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: anyways, you have therefore plenty to review!	[16:39]
jfw:	dunno how much confusion, but complications were that the plane arrived late, and someone fell (said initial reports at least) during boarding and was de-planed	[16:40]
jfw:	plenty to review indeed; plenty to sleep first	[16:42]
diana_coman:	lol, thrown off the plane for stumbling?	[16:43]
jfw:	I'd guess more like passing out, but did not witness.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	but anyways, glad to hear you got where you wanted to be.	[16:44]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I had nothing specific to discuss for today	[16:45]
lobbes:	(or in general, for that matter!)	[16:46]
diana_coman:	lobbes: o.O ; are you done with discussing for the next 5 years or what?	[16:47]
lobbes:	diana_coman: no not at all lol. I just realized "nothing specific" was an odd phrasing	[16:49]
diana_coman:	lobbes: ah, it sounded like "nothing for today or in general"	[16:50]
lobbes:	but for today I'm just working through this article. Going to get my review n' such out. Still on track with my one-job-application-per-day too	[16:50]
diana_coman:	ok	[16:51]
whaack:	diana_coman: no i'm certainly not happpy with the stalling/spinning. Catalonia returned, which has returned me to a good mood while taking away time.	[17:08]
diana_coman:	lolz, the boomerang effect	[17:09]
trinque:	diana_coman: http://trinque.org/2020/03/22/deedbots-future/	[18:01]
diana_coman:	reads	[18:02]
cruciform:	diana_coman, http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/	[18:18]
diana_coman:	feedbot should announce it, but possibly it's slow today; /me looks	[18:21]
diana_coman:	trinque: I left a comment there, it's possibly a better place for the discussion anyway.	[18:21]
diana_coman:	do feel free to move it here though if you prefer/think it works better as a conversation.	[18:22]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what operating system are you using?	[18:23]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/22/dg-week-1-plan-mar-23-29-2020/ << Young Hands Club — DG Week 1 Plan Mar 23-29 2020	[18:23]
cruciform:	ubuntu 16.04	[18:24]
diana_coman:	cruciform: can be worse, lol; anyways, re "no idea how long this will take so won't estimate", that's silly to start with; the point of estimating is precisely to start getting such ideas.	[18:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-12-04 16:37:20 diana_coman: the learning/new part simply means that you double/triple/whatever your estimate because you clearly can't possibly estimate it correctly when you are not even sure wtf that thing is; then there is the above and the expecting-the-unexpected that comes on top and yes, it's more of a perspective shift indeed.	[18:26]
trinque:	diana_coman: http://trinque.org/2020/03/22/deedbots-future/#comment-201	[18:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I thought it'd be better to have no estimate than an estimate pulled out of arse. I can see that this resolves to "not getting started" (however roughly). I'll go back and add time estimates.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	trinque: answered.	[18:42]
diana_coman:	cruciform: in what way better?	[18:42]
diana_coman:	(can be – but you have to make the case for it, can't just "better" :P )	[18:42]
cruciform:	diana_coman, better in the sense that I was being lazy: avoiding the effort of estimating how long things'll take	[18:45]
diana_coman:	cruciform: btw, if you want to jump in anyway, can do worse than using the opportunity to write a short awk script to log your time; there's a quite good tutorial iirc.	[18:46]
cruciform:	diana_coman, thanks! I'll check it out; I've added time estimates to the post	[18:47]
diana_coman:	cruciform: aha; anyways, there you go, this has been essentially an #o light taster for you; re reading the logs to get an idea what it is about, perhaps better start with people's articles on their experience/getting in; some struggled with the question of "do I want in?" for a while.	[18:48]
diana_coman:	cruciform: also, you might want to change your article's category there, you can choose it, you know?	[18:51]
cruciform:	diana_coman, "derp" seems appropriate, at least for now ;)	[18:51]
diana_coman:	lol, ok then; anyways, have fun!	[18:52]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[18:52]
dorion:	made it to vermont.	[18:57]
whaack:	dorion and jfw: good to hear you're back at your roots safe and sound.	[19:02]
whaack:	In coronavirus beach news: police are kicking surfers out of the water around here.	[20:31]
trinque:	bahaha, how is surfing not "social distancing"	[20:32]
whaack:	yeah…no idea.	[20:39]
whaack:	They closed most of the beaches though so I guess kicking the surfers out is just an extension of kicking everyone off the beach. It's pretty silly though because most of these beaches are ~deserted on a day to day basis anyways	[20:42]
BingoBoingo:	jfw dorion: Good to hear your transits passed smoothly	[21:07]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/wh-week-23-review-mar-16th-mar-22nd/ << Young Hands Club — WH Week 23 Review (Mar 16th – Mar 22nd)	[21:27]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/wh-plan-for-week-24-mar-23-mar-29/ << Young Hands Club — WH Plan For Week 24 (Mar 23 – Mar 29)	[21:32]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/23/ar-review-march-16th-march-22nd-and-plan-march-23rd-29th/ << Young Hands Club — AR Review March 16th – March 22nd And Plan March 23rd – 29th	[23:00]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 21 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:50 pm

dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022512 – lol. welcome cruciform.	[01:58]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 16:21:32 diana_coman: cruciform: don't be shy and don't get stuck, it's a question not a gun.	[01:58]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022517 – thank you diana_coman. cruciform, jfw and I expect to be available to talk early next week, say monday evening GMT. as discussed in the log a bit before you joined, we're traveling to new england saturday.	[02:02]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 16:24:51 diana_coman: cruciform: well, jfw and dorion give that sort of lessons really; my YH is with a rather different scope as such.	[02:02]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022535 – good for you.	[02:03]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 16:33:17 cruciform: Also, "my" BTC are currently handled by programs I don't understand, which I'd like to change	[02:03]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022495 – BingoBoingo, looks ok-ish to me (the 2 pics at the top don't seem the right size/fit really) but dunno, is the plan that you'll stick in there ads? and if yes, shouldn't it be clear already where, at least?	[05:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 12:10:46 BingoBoingo: And the new thing's online http://mvdstandard.net/ I'll be running some errands today, taking Spanish class, and hammering out a blog post introducing it where I take a bit from the plans I'd been drafting adapted to the rather uncertain landscape on the other side of present herd stampede.	[05:19]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: also, what's your plan with the qntra archives?	[05:20]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022614 – lol, take the mind to the cr mechanics and they'll apply the "use a hammer" methodology!	[05:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 17:30:09 whaack: diana_coman: No, I think it really is just stalling.	[05:21]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I'll be revisiting the ad question in three months. As the setup stands now the sidebar can accomodate one, individual posts can accomodate one rotating between the end of the article and the comments, and if interest bears to do ads in volume a classified ads page can be done though the prospects for that seem to have popped earlier this week. I'll head out later with the camera to grow the picture stock some	[12:47]
BingoBoingo:	more and weigh where I may want to put some placeholders.	[12:47]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: The three months figure comes from not seeing much happening in the city worth advertising until the viral-fad winds down. That's time to start building the reporting history, start getting traffic, and having some readership to show once business starts winding up again.	[12:48]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: As far as the Qntra archives go, I plan to keep Qntra stood up as it is indefinitely. If I'm hosting one site another doesn't come with substantial added cost. Once the new thing has started to grow its own history, I may import them, but I'm not ready to cross that bridge yet.	[12:48]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: do you mean you don't want qntra's archives to overshadow the new content simply by size/number?	[16:14]
diana_coman:	cruciform: mind leaving the connection on?	[16:18]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I don't have a bouncer; wouldn't that risk join/part spam?	[16:19]
diana_coman:	it's pretty much how it's meant to work really, no need to leave and re-join, just let it be on somewhere, whether you are at the keyboard or not	[16:19]
diana_coman:	depends on how stable (or not) your connection is really; on a reasonable setup & connection, it shouldn't flicker normally but you know what connection you are on.	[16:19]
cruciform:	ok, I'll give that a go	[16:20]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: At least for a few months.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: no problem that I can see there anyway/either way; more of my curiosity on this only, since I admit that I also don't quite see all those problems re qntra /former alignment/etc but from what I gather, it's probably a very different perception altogether. Anyways, no issue there either way.	[16:28]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I've spoken to alf and BB regarding hosting an mp-wp blog; they've given me the setup documentation, so plan for tomorrow is 1) read through that, try to make sense of it; if I canâ€™t, setup a temporary heathen blog until I can. 2) Read #o logs to grok what YH is. 3) Write an article regarding 2) & what I want; and whether the two intersect.	[16:29]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I don't see any real disalignment between Qntra and the new thing. While the new thing's new, I'd just like to keep the aesthetic new.	[16:29]
BingoBoingo:	back from Montevideo Shopping with some photos	[16:30]
diana_coman:	cruciform: as I said earlier, if you prefer/find it easier, I can just give you an account on the younghands.club blog so you are not stuck on "no blog" or "don't know how to setup mp-wp" or some other silly stuff like that; entirely up to you though, I don't mind it either way so you'll have to speak up/ask for it if/when you want that.	[16:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 17:22:42 diana_coman: cruciform: do you plan to get yourself one? or do you want to inaugurate the new YH category of …hm, maybe hopefuls, I guess	[16:34]
cruciform:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-21-Mar-2020#1022617 Great; speak to you then – safe travels!	[16:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-21 02:02:26 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-20-Mar-2020#1022517 – thank you diana_coman. cruciform, jfw and I expect to be available to talk early next week, say monday evening GMT. as discussed in the log a bit before you joined, we're traveling to new england saturday.	[16:34]
cruciform:	diana_coman, that'd be ideal; please do that	[16:35]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what's your name?	[16:36]
cruciform:	Daniel Godwin	[16:36]
diana_coman:	thanks, I'll set it up in a bit and will gpg you.	[16:40]
cruciform:	thank you	[16:41]
diana_coman:	trinque: is drunkbot meant to replace deedbot (ie you retire deedbot) or what do you have in mind?	[16:53]
diana_coman:	cruciform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Ram5	[16:54]
cruciform:	Received, thanks – I'll have a post up by tomorrow evening	[17:11]
diana_coman:	cruciform: no problem.	[17:17]
trinque:	diana_coman: no, consider "drunkbot" my staging environment	[17:58]
trinque:	that said, I announced in my chan that the wallet was hooked up to ^ atm	[18:07]
trinque:	however I'll merge the data because it looks like not everyone knew.	[18:08]
trinque:	I've meanwhile taken the old wallet service offline.	[18:09]
jfw:	packs up terminal & soon heading to other kind of terminal. See you on the other side!	[21:11]
trinque:	jfw: watch out for the cooties!	[21:12]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 20 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:40 pm

jfw:	so Panama's escalated from closing the border for non-residents, to curfew, to now suspending all passenger flights starting Sunday night, "for 30 days".	[03:40]
dorion:	we've been looking at flights, considering our options.	[03:42]
jfw:	I have no idea which place is the frying pan and which is the fire, or how that changes over days, weeks, months; but what I know is we're not as well established & connected here as we ought to be, have no place to go outside the city, whereas back in the "mainland" have more options	[03:44]
jfw:	to be clearer, our thinking is to hole up with family in USA, until this blows over at least as far as travel restrictions – and if it doesn't, Panama just isn't the place I'd rather be.	[03:49]
jfw:	We can continue with the business development, in fact one of the better current prospects is there, and meeting people is getting harder here.	[03:50]
dorion:	right now we're in the middle of a 1.5M+ city with a lot of poverty. portland, me is ~70k and my town in vt is ~20k. I have a lot more guns in vt, lol.	[03:50]
dorion:	some of the poorer neighborhoods are putting in check points during the day.	[03:51]
dorion:	have to have docs (including proof of address) and reason to be in the street.	[03:52]
dorion:	kyc/aml on j-walkers, lol.	[03:52]
jfw:	diana_coman: the question in here is basically, do you have advice for the situation or how to better evaluate it, or any particular caution against hopping on the ~next plane which is our present strong inclination.	[03:53]
dorion:	there's also screening at port of entry in usia and self-quarantine for 2 weeks if negative. couldn't get a straight answer if positive, but doubt we'd have much choice.	[03:56]
jfw:	"self-quarantine" apparently means promise to stay home and stay in touch with a doctor.	[03:57]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion huh, and when I was asking if those wealthy actual investors are really there, you were convinced they were and it's just hard to get to touch their wot at all; re evaluation, given that it's quite late, it's a matter of what options do you really have now so I can't really tell from here	[05:00]
diana_coman:	at any rate, if you don't see any reason to stay there, then at least that part is clear; whether then you still have any other option re destination than going back home is a separate thing.	[05:05]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks. for now, we want to be here long term and plan to come back as soon as we could, 30 days best case scenario.	[05:07]
dorion:	panama may be handling this better than us, we'd been making preparations to stay here, but hadn't been paying too much mind. got more real with this restriction. have to decide in next 12 hrs or so what the next 30+ days will look like.	[05:10]
diana_coman:	dorion: whichever option you go, I doubt it will be "30 days only"	[05:12]
dorion:	right.	[05:12]
diana_coman:	panama is also not only panama-city perhaps but again – I have no idea there.	[05:13]
diana_coman:	ie if your problem is the huge town of idiots and so on, just get out of their way	[05:13]
diana_coman:	since well, there isn't much else you can currently do, as far as I understand	[05:13]
diana_coman:	I suppose by this stage you should think also re internet connectivity and basic stuff in there	[05:14]
dorion:	word on the street is they're going to start locking down movement in the city soon. not sure if that will happen or how long it'll last.	[05:16]
diana_coman:	dorion: the trouble is more – what are your options in the town if/when a. lock downs/whatever similars b. breakdowns & shortages?	[05:16]
dorion:	diana_coman there wouldn't be many.	[05:18]
jfw:	depends how bad or protracted the breakdowns. In a way the place is adapted to them, but to a limited degree	[05:18]
jfw:	like there's multiple internet providers, my building has a full backup generator – but if fuel shortage?	[05:19]
jfw:	I don't know that the country would be better for internet though.	[05:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's probably not by itself, no; the question is if you have more options to make it better for yourself there in such situation; again, kind of really late now but well, can't go back in time either	[05:21]
diana_coman:	conversely, I suppose – what't the worst case scenario you see if you decide to hop on the next plane now?	[05:21]
jfw:	yeah, I at least was caught in large part off guard.	[05:22]
diana_coman:	dorion, jfw re evaluation – a. what are the real options you can take currently b. what's the worst case scenario in each c. make a decision quickly because time is running out and then go for that decision 100\%	[05:23]
jfw:	re worst case – seems like it'd be if the breakdowns or state controls get just as bad in the US, and we lost what resources we'd set up here	[05:24]
dorion:	I have more options in vt in the short term once I get there.	[05:24]
diana_coman:	dunno, you 2 think it through but again worst case scenarios and I'd say mid to long term, not short term only.	[05:25]
dorion:	alright, thanks diana_coman	[05:25]
diana_coman:	I guess panama might have a weaker state perhaps	[05:25]
dorion:	for sure	[05:25]
diana_coman:	also, not sure, aren't there a lot others you can bring together?	[05:26]
dorion:	weaker state, smaller population, more docile.	[05:26]
diana_coman:	ie maybe look at what you can make out of it, since you are there	[05:26]
diana_coman:	this goes into the a. what are the options	[05:26]
diana_coman:	tbh I personally would not go to the us but then again, I wouldn't really go to panama-city either, so not of much help there.	[05:28]
dorion:	diana_coman jfw said you may say that.	[05:28]
dorion:	lol.	[05:28]
diana_coman:	heh, yeah, I'm not surprised he did.	[05:28]
jfw:	then there's panama-country of "run-down shacks posing as hostels" fame	[05:29]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure; the point is that you need however way less resources there to make your life way better, that's the thing	[05:29]
diana_coman:	it's not about going "because it's good" but going because "I have more levarage to make it what I want it "	[05:30]
diana_coman:	well, if you do & want it, that is.	[05:30]
diana_coman:	leverage*	[05:31]
jfw:	as in, cost of land, thus construction, thus rent?	[05:31]
jfw:	more freedom to use the land too	[05:31]
dorion:	jfw there's way less competition and way weaker state here.	[05:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's just to scratch the surface but from there on, yes; more space, probably your money goes further too because less of it around otherwise etc; anyways, I need to go away now, I'll be back in around 1 hour	[05:32]
jfw:	alright thanks diana_coman.	[05:32]
dorion:	thanks diana_coman	[05:32]
diana_coman:	will be around	[07:02]
dorion:	diana_coman we'll be getting on the plane to regroup. the plan is to close the client in vermont, continue developing contacts here while we're away and return as soon as they permit residents again.	[07:22]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok; good luck!	[07:30]
dorion:	diana_coman thank you! will keep you posted.	[07:35]
BingoBoingo:	And the new thing's online http://mvdstandard.net/ I'll be running some errands today, taking Spanish class, and hammering out a blog post introducing it where I take a bit from the plans I'd been drafting adapted to the rather uncertain landscape on the other side of present herd stampede.	[12:10]
whaack:	jfw and dorion: godspeed	[12:17]
jfw:	ty whaack. That remote location you got may have its plusses; how are the supply lines holding out there?	[12:19]
whaack:	jfw: The super market in Santa Cruz was ~full and operations seem to be normal. Billymg reported that the big supermarket in Tamarindo (the more touristy town closer to the airport) has guards permitting only one person-per-family into the store at a time	[12:25]
jfw:	that old "safety in crowds" again right?	[12:27]
whaack:	I provisioned for 1-2 months of food after reading your article, although looking at my cabinets I'm not sure what's worse: death or eating what I purchased for 1-2 months straight (nuts, beans, rice, pastas, ramen)	[12:27]
whaack:	jfw: ah sorry, i meant the shelves in the super market were full	[12:28]
jfw:	I figured, yeah, and meant the bigger place is the one seeing more controls.	[12:29]
jfw:	I hear hunger works wonders for these kinds of uncertainties	[12:30]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: No fishing pole?	[12:30]
whaack:	BingoBoingo: I was about to say, I need to get fishing gear.	[12:31]
whaack:	People often fish right where I live	[12:32]
diana_coman:	hello cruciform , what brings you here?	[16:18]
cruciform:	Hi! I'm interested in your Young Hands program	[16:19]
diana_coman:	cruciform: why and how does that interest you?	[16:19]
diana_coman:	I know you've been around a bit since at least 2017, haven't you?	[16:20]
diana_coman:	enthdegree: are you around at all?	[16:20]
diana_coman:	cruciform: don't be shy and don't get stuck, it's a question not a gun.	[16:21]
enthdegree:	Diana yes although I am extremely busy with work things	[16:21]
enthdegree:	Will be around more this weekend	[16:22]
cruciform:	Yea: I've read ~a year of trilema logs (June 2017-June 2018); I'd like to learn how to use a computer – programming, trb; that sort of thing	[16:22]
diana_coman:	enthdegree: ok, this weekend then.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, jfw and dorion give that sort of lessons really; my YH is with a rather different scope as such.	[16:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-10-29 16:25:39 diana_coman: oh my, if I ever start "developing programmers" do me a favour and shoot me.	[16:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: travel prep is going fine so far here but got more running around town to do before evening. I can't promise that review today but won't rule it out either.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, don't worry about the review now, you've got the travel prep to do properly; do that review when you are back home, what.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what do you do otherwise?	[16:27]
cruciform:	I play poker professionally	[16:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: ok, will do.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	huh, that sounds familiar for some reason.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	cruciform: and why do you want to switch from that to …programming, anyway/	[16:29]
diana_coman:	?	[16:29]
diana_coman:	but seriously, for getting to grips with what you seem to want ie more re keeping your own bitcoins, just talk to jfw and dorion, possibly after they are back at some settled point I guess.	[16:30]
cruciform:	possibly from here? http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2017-09-01#1709423	[16:30]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2017-09-01 mircea_popescu: Barbarossa_ write it up sometime, with pics and everything, i'd read. got a blog ?	[16:30]
diana_coman:	cruciform: right you are, it's from there indeed.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	I was just typing to ask if you are in the uk, lo	[16:31]
cruciform:	That was me under a different alias, before I got gpg working	[16:31]
cruciform:	Well, as much fun as looking-at-cards-and-hoping-they're-good is, I'd like to do something more productive	[16:31]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, what's stopping you on doing something productive?	[16:32]
cruciform:	Also, "my" BTC are currently handled by programs I don't understand, which I'd like to change	[16:33]
cruciform:	Nothing at all; I'd just like to as productive as possible – not learn the wrong stuff	[16:33]
cruciform:	*be	[16:34]
cruciform:	For example, not sure if a syllabus something like this http://blog.esthlos.com/towards-a-computer-science-education/comment-page-1/ is appropriate	[16:34]
diana_coman:	cruciform: wanting to understand and to be productive sound all reasonable and fine, no problem there; how do those square with the 3 years since 2017?	[16:35]
diana_coman:	wonders if esthlos will pop back in too at some point.	[16:36]
cruciform:	Strangely; I can distinctly recall having my headfucked while reading the logs full-time a few years ago, then… going back to work and reading the odd trilema article now and then.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	cruciform: jwrd has a curriculum in place and the materials and everything else; so dunno, if you really are after learning the right thing + quick & productive, that IS currently the best option; if however you mean you are looking for something else on whatever coordinates (dunno – no payment?), then fine, but it's something else.	[16:38]
diana_coman:	cruciform: lol, so what happened /how come you got back in exactly now anyway?	[16:38]
diana_coman:	whaack: did you get in the end any actual results at all?	[16:39]
cruciform:	I've been reading trilema more recently; remembered this is where the cool people are – I'd like to be like 'em	[16:40]
cruciform:	I don't really know how it is that I read a year of logs, then sorta-kinda went back to the day job for a while	[16:41]
cruciform:	I'm not concerned with payment/an income stream via compsci/programming at the moment, if that's what you mean?	[16:42]
diana_coman:	well, #trilema & tmsr closed down and very recently at that; people are still what they have always been but time matters too.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what I mean is that jwrd offer for a fee the sort of lessons you say you want so you should talk to them about that.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	cruciform: do you mind saying how old are you	[16:43]
diana_coman:	?	[16:43]
cruciform:	31	[16:44]
diana_coman:	thanks; where about in the uk are you anyway?	[16:44]
cruciform:	Gotcha; I realise I'm late to the party – I suppose I'm saying that I'm ready to stop dithering/beating round the bush	[16:44]
cruciform:	Croydon	[16:44]
diana_coman:	cruciform: london, ugh.	[16:45]
diana_coman:	or dunno, maybe congrats? lolz	[16:45]
cruciform:	yes – I was gonna move this month, but the plague etc	[16:45]
cruciform:	no, I despise London, too	[16:46]
diana_coman:	you know, I lost track of how many kept going on about how they despise London – while they came & stayed exactly there.	[16:47]
cruciform:	Isn't intertia a law of nature?	[16:47]
diana_coman:	perhaps my earlier I won't ask people for stuff anymore doesn't make the full picture clear but let me state plainly another part that comes with that – I won't take "saying that" for anything at all either and the yh application process is not going to be an exception from that either.	[16:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 10:21:24 diana_coman: trinque: so why not ask, man? how the fuck am I supposed to guess what you read in it/can't read in it? I meant specifically that I won't ask people for stuff.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	cruciform: are you saying there that "inertia made me do it"	[16:52]
diana_coman:	?	[16:52]
cruciform:	With regard to being in London despite hating it, no: I've needed to be here for work. In terms of why I've been read-only for the past 3 years, I don't know	[16:55]
diana_coman:	heh, that's pretty much how it goes, indeed; "despise it" "but!! money!!" lolz.	[16:56]
cruciform:	That's the strange thing: I didn't need the money	[16:57]
diana_coman:	anyways, nothing wrong with not knowing re the other bit – congrats on discovering the unknown!	[16:57]
diana_coman:	nobody said there "need it"; just "money", yeah	[16:57]
diana_coman:	cruciform: where did you come from, before despising london from within?	[16:57]
cruciform:	I grew up in Surrey; went to London for medschool	[16:58]
diana_coman:	ahahah, didn't know medschool was the qualification for professional poker.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	did you finish medschool?	[16:59]
cruciform:	dropping out improves the odds, so to speak ;)	[16:59]
diana_coman:	aha, lol	[16:59]
diana_coman:	cruciform: did you read around the yh site?	[17:00]
cruciform:	I've read a few weekly agenda posts of students – seeing their productivity was one of the reasons I wanted to get involved	[17:01]
cruciform:	And the charter, of course http://younghands.club/	[17:01]
diana_coman:	once I finish the review, I'll set the exact shape of that moving forwards too & get around to update everything here and there, as appropriate; meanwhile though, and as per earlier more relaxed requirements, I guess I'll open up an applicants category so that people have a space to do something that might indeed serve as "I'm interested" and back up their application.	[17:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 05:02:56 diana_coman: so meanwhile consider the requirements slightly relaxed and take advantage of the situation while it lasts.	[17:07]
diana_coman:	cruciform: but to reiterate, specifically re btc, trb, programming, computers as such, from my point of view there are dorion and jfw covering that and I have no desire whatsoever to give lessons in it too.	[17:09]
diana_coman:	jwrd is their venture.	[17:10]
cruciform:	Your "…focus is on killing stupidity on sight, not on protecting egos, feelings, inner idjits and other unhelpful constructions."?	[17:10]
diana_coman:	cruciform: what's with that?	[17:10]
diana_coman:	that remains, sure.	[17:10]
cruciform:	ie. that's why you run YH; not compsci tuition, per se	[17:11]
whaack:	diana_coman: I have logs I'm sitting on to organize and publish, but in terms of work this week no – I have ~nothing to show so far. I've been in constant failure mode this week. I've been spinning and generally feeling sorry for myself. It is pathetic, and I need to snap out of it. Amongst the few things that have gotten me down lately, yesterday Catalonia left me.	[17:12]
diana_coman:	cruciform: here's the description of YH & #o as seen from the inside, might help I guess. (Because #ossasepia is part of YH project, yes.)	[17:13]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 16:40:13 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022347 – I see it more as you're interested in creating relationships and helping pe	[17:13]
diana_coman:	whaack: ahaha, don't cry for me catalonia/	[17:14]
diana_coman:	but seriously, wasn't …hm, expected?	[17:14]
diana_coman:	whaack: anyways, why so sorry for yourself? sun,surf,stocked supermarkets, fish to fish, fruit to pick, what's so terrible?	[17:14]
cruciform:	diana_coman, I'd love to create relationships, and get more effective in achieving my goals	[17:17]
diana_coman:	cruciform: well, the question there is not "would you love that?" but always "how much are you willing to work for that?" And as per above, the spoken answer won't be enough by itself, that's all.	[17:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-20 16:50:58 diana_coman: perhaps my earlier I won't ask people for stuff anymore doesn't make the full picture clear but let me state plainly another part that comes with that – I won't take "saying that" for anything at all either and the yh application process is not going to be an exception from that either.	[17:19]
diana_coman:	cruciform: do you have a blog of your own?	[17:19]
cruciform:	I had one hosted by Pizarro; not at the moment	[17:19]
cruciform:	I'll see if alf is interested in hosting one for me	[17:22]
diana_coman:	cruciform: do you plan to get yourself one? or do you want to inaugurate the new YH category of …hm, maybe hopefuls, I guess	[17:22]
diana_coman:	understand that no, I won't take anyone in just through an interview anymore, that window is closed.	[17:23]
whaack:	diana_coman: Last week I was focused on those great aspects of where I am, but enjoying surfing and picking fruit makes me feel like a "happy idiot" and I'd rather get my happiness from another source = i.e. achievement. But when I sit at my desk and begin to work my mind goes elsewhere.	[17:23]
cruciform:	diana_coman, what are the requirements for entry?	[17:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform: entry where?	[17:23]
diana_coman:	cruciform: the "process" itself remains the same in the sense that it's still this.	[17:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-10-16 16:28:16 diana_coman: dorion: the "application process" is very simple: 1. you figure out if you want in 2. if yes, you say it and then I figure out if I want you on	[17:25]
cruciform:	into the YH community – isn't that what you meant when you said an interview isn't enough?	[17:25]
diana_coman:	cruciform: see above, does that answer your question?	[17:26]
cruciform:	Ok; I'll read more logs and be back tomorrow evening – thanks for the referrals!	[17:26]
diana_coman:	cruciform: no problem.	[17:27]
cruciform:	diana_coman, yes, that makes sense	[17:27]
diana_coman:	whaack: lol; does the mind do anything where it goes, at least? if it really is processing something, might as well then sit and process until done.	[17:28]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[17:29]
whaack:	diana_coman: No, I think it really is just stalling.	[17:30]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 19 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:30 pm

dorion:	hello enthdegree	[00:55]
dorion:	enthdegree, better to chat in the channel than pm.	[00:58]
lobbes:	I think he needs voice from ChanServ anyways	[01:04]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-17#1022160 << thanks. It is bittersweet of course (I can't help but think "if I didn't suck maybe it would've extended the shelf-life of tmsr a bit longer"), but it'd have been worse if I didn't even manage to get a log dump to him	[01:04]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-17 02:57:01 dorion: lobbes congrats on getting the job done.	[01:04]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-10-09 mp_en_viaje: you saved them.	[01:04]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-18#1022231 << March 28, 2016 is as far back as I have for #t logs (I think this is the case for all three 'stan loggers' currently live)	[01:07]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-18 06:21:47 jfw: lobbes: in that log import project you ever get a hold of the pre-2016 ones (ie. #b-a) in a raw form? It's the kinda thing I'd like to have around and afaik phf never shared what MP had given him to seed btcbase.	[01:07]
lobbes:	though I believe alf may have the older phf logs.	[01:08]
lobbes:	jfw: actually, phf still has those old logs up it seems	[01:10]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-08-09 phf: there's no need to znc, the entire archive of logs is available here: http://btcbase.org/log-raw/ with 2016-03.txt being the last kako file. the only outlier is tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt which is the dump mircea_popescu gave me of the prehistoric logs, which i have a custom reader for.	[01:10]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022284 – yeah, forgot about that. enthdegree, you'll have to pm diana_coman when she's available, 19 UTC is her regular time here. make sure you have a key registered though.	[01:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 01:04:50 lobbes: I think he needs voice from ChanServ anyways	[01:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-09 20:13:49 diana_coman: and for any newcomers and log readers: please register first a key with deedbot (see the guide: http://www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup) as otherwise it's unlikely you'll get voiced in here.	[01:19]
diana_coman:	hello enthdegree , what brings you here?	[04:47]
diana_coman:	re deedbot I suppose I'll have to roll my own too since I'll be damned if after all of it I'll just go about re-doing all the ritualic dances too.	[05:02]
diana_coman:	so meanwhile consider the requirements slightly relaxed and take advantage of the situation while it lasts.	[05:02]
diana_coman:	ritualistic*	[05:03]
diana_coman:	(for the log, the ritualistic dance in this case goes like this: something is promised; naive person awaits for it; nothing happens; naive person asks about it and promise is reiterated; still nothing happens; on it goes)	[05:05]
diana_coman:	will be back later.	[05:16]
trinque:	diana_coman: see, over here it looks like "ex-soviet bellows demands, offers nothing in return" as the prime cultural offering of once-tmsr.	[09:47]
trinque:	I told you what, two days ago, that deedbot needed to be modified a bit to support multiple channels.	[09:48]
trinque:	in all of you from the soviet system there's "narcissism for me; altruism for you"	[09:57]
spyked:	heh. I'll be pedantic (and besides the point) and say that in particular the Ro system looked closer to dprk than the soviets, but… yeah.	[10:00]
diana_coman:	trinque: you know, if I meant to target you with that , I'd have pinged you; no, I mean it way more general as an approach and it rests on my incoming-review (that will still take some time because myeah, loads of work)	[10:03]
trinque:	at any rate, the changes to deedbot are minimal, certainly not of the "design an OS" scale.	[10:05]
diana_coman:	trinque: where exactly did I bellow any demand from you? because the way it reads from here is that you gave in to your own brand of hubris and grand-words above with ex-soviets and all that.	[10:05]
trinque:	I read above something I offered turned into homework on which I'm late.	[10:06]
diana_coman:	trinque: no, I don't do implicit like that, aka "it's obvious", so no.	[10:07]
trinque:	anyhow. deedbot is running in both #deedbot and #trinque, so that part works.	[10:08]
trinque:	next step is the wot calculations, and seeing that e.g. voicing in one channel does not in the other, etc	[10:08]
diana_coman:	trinque: what's the reason you are doing this deedbot update & roll out anyway?	[10:10]
trinque:	multi-channel deedbot is the next best approximation of a distributed http://wot.deedbot.org/	[10:14]
diana_coman:	ok, but what's your plan with that or you know, why sink time into it?	[10:15]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022304 – btw, esp in the light of all my recent re-reading of past-tmsr stuff, this is particularly infuriating in its blindness and informed-by-own-feelings.	[10:17]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 09:57:03 trinque: in all of you from the soviet system there's "narcissism for me; altruism for you"	[10:17]
trinque:	"everyone is a secret wrecker but me" also extremely infurating.	[10:17]
trinque:	stan also does this.	[10:17]
diana_coman:	huh?	[10:18]
diana_coman:	what's a secret wrecker?	[10:18]
trinque:	I just went on a dive for the thread, didn't find.	[10:18]
diana_coman:	and what the fuck does stan have to do in this conversation?	[10:18]
trinque:	I really have no idea how to read what you said as other than "trinque ain't bringing deedbot"	[10:20]
trinque:	but whatever.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022318 – I can see this being infuriating (working with some guess as to "secret wrecker"); I have no idea though how does it relate to me; does it relate to me?	[10:20]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 10:17:50 trinque: "everyone is a secret wrecker but me" also extremely infurating.	[10:20]
diana_coman:	trinque: so why not ask, man? how the fuck am I supposed to guess what you read in it/can't read in it? I meant specifically that I won't ask people for stuff.	[10:21]
trinque:	to answer your earlier question, I am working on deedbot because I wish to help keep some cohesion in former-tmsr as it devolves.	[10:22]
trinque:	deedbot has long been a bad prototype of a gossipd node, making it an incrementally less-bad prototype	[10:23]
trinque:	diana_coman: I guess there are things we're all furious about, then. thanks for explaining.	[10:24]
diana_coman:	thank you for the clear answer; and indeed re prototype of gossipd node, I can see it.	[10:24]
trinque:	nonzero chance of another great depression after all this money printing and panic.	[10:26]
trinque:	which is sort of ironic. kinda reminds me of the biblical revelations thing, where by the time christ comes back, nobody believes in him, or w/e.	[10:27]
trinque:	point being, the use-case for bitcoin might become abundantly clear real soon.	[10:27]
diana_coman:	sure; still too late.	[10:27]
trinque:	we're certain to find out either way.	[10:40]
trinque:	https://www.opentable.com/state-of-industry << I was struck recently by how uniform the reaction looks in this dataset, came up on w/e news orifice.	[10:42]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022305 – lolz, I missed this but I have to say I disagree on both counts really.	[10:43]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 10:00:51 spyked: heh. I'll be pedantic (and besides the point) and say that in particular the Ro system looked closer to dprk than the soviets, but… yeah.	[10:43]
trinque:	it seems like when there's something real to fear, human behavior is quite rational.	[10:44]
trinque:	even among the derps.	[10:44]
trinque:	it'd have to be for there to any derps in the first place, I'd claim.	[10:44]
diana_coman:	trinque: not sure how you link "uniform response" to "rational".	[10:49]
diana_coman:	spyked: now I wonder if you imagine #trilema and #ossasepia as exercises in narcissism of the two respective owners; is that what you're saying?	[10:50]
spyked:	diana_coman, not at all. I was discussing the soviet/dprk thing besides trinque's point. but I was just thinking, where does one draw the line between "personality cult" and "protecting the elite among one's group"? I can certainly see the narcissism angle, although I don't personally abide by it.	[10:53]
diana_coman:	I am even quite curious so if anyone cares to make a coherent case for #ossasepia being about my narcissism, I'd certainly read it; as already stated, I won't ask even for this but I'd certainly read and comment on it.	[10:53]
diana_coman:	spyked: do you realise that the "personality cult" is not the doing of the person at the centre of it? ie if everyone strived to immitate MP, it's their doing, not his, wtf.	[10:54]
diana_coman:	this is pretty much the old "they whistle after her -> she's a whore!"	[10:55]
spyked:	no argument here	[10:55]
trinque:	diana_coman: I do not wish to trade insults. I took you as taking a shot at me, and I accept that you weren't.	[10:56]
diana_coman:	re soviet/dprk, on one hand the reality in Ro was quite different depending on whether industrial town or not (talk to some from each type of town and you'll notice – if no heavy industry, it was nowhere near as horrible in a day to day sense)	[10:56]
diana_coman:	and otoh, if you talk to people from the proper soviets, it's pretty much a matter of timing.	[10:57]
trinque:	I don't buy the idea that the leadership has nothing to do with a personality cult, though.	[10:57]
trinque:	leadership authors culture, doesn't it?	[10:57]
diana_coman:	trinque: I don't quite follow your full reasoning there and atm I need to go so – do you mind if we get back to this around 7pm UTC?	[10:58]
trinque:	sure, I'll be around all day.	[10:59]
diana_coman:	cool; laters then.	[10:59]
spyked:	diana_coman, agreed re. reality. I was thinking more about the ideology (as outlined in the july theses, for example)	[10:59]
diana_coman:	spyked: I confess I'm quite ignorant regarding dprk's ideology	[16:16]
diana_coman:	I suppose it can be though.	[16:16]
diana_coman:	trinque: assuming you referenced there the what is art (which I don't dispute), I still don't see how you get from there to the personality cult	[16:19]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022291 – tyvm lobbes. That spot didn't have pre-2016 when I last checked (during the "trilema goes dark" incident), and I missed where phf announced that.	[16:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 01:10:33 lobbes: jfw: actually, phf still has those old logs up it seems	[16:21]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-08-09 phf: there's no need to znc, the entire archive of logs is available here: http://btcbase.org/log-raw/ with 2016-03.txt being the last kako file. the only outlier is tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt which is the dump mircea_popescu gave me of the prehistoric logs, which i have a custom reader for.	[16:21]
dorion:	hi diana_coman, making progress over here. thrown out a couple drafts that read a bit to much as before. cutting to the chase more on my latest iteration.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	dorion: focus always and even start with the things you actually do/did, yes; even if it ends up as the middle in your article/draft, there's no problem and it helps to start with what you did because that's surely what you also know best, obviously.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	lobbes: is that apr2012-oct2013 the only part currently missing from your logger's webpage?	[16:25]
diana_coman:	iirc mine is also missing some part in the beginning and I guess it's that one (haven't looked at it in ages and I don't recall now)	[16:26]
dorion:	thanks. right now I'm starting with the problem. the biggest problem we're aiming to solve computer security. this allows me to incorporate mp's prior advice : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957236 , http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957237	[16:27]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-01-24 mircea_popescu: so my proposal is rather to look at the matter not as much as you're in the business of TEACHING LINUX (while getting together), but in the business of GETTING TOGETHER (while for instance teaching linux, or gales, or bitcoin, or whatever is needed)	[16:27]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-01-24 mircea_popescu: build it around the relationship, their building, their lifecycle, their needs. do not build it around the imaginary "point", that isn't.	[16:27]
dorion:	I'm still detailing the hardware/gales/training package, but making it clear that's not all we do.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	dorion: from what you say as such, it sounds fine indeed; and sure, what problem you solve is part of what you do, obviously.	[16:29]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-19-Mar-2020#1022347 – I see it more as you're interested in creating relationships and helping pe	[16:40]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 10:53:16 diana_coman: I am even quite curious so if anyone cares to make a coherent case for #ossasepia being about my narcissism, I'd certainly read it; as already stated, I won't ask even for this but I'd certainly read and comment on it.	[16:40]
dorion:	ople become more effective in achieving their goals. Pretty much all you've demanded so far is they commit to consistently improving the	[16:40]
dorion:	themselves*	[16:40]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-19#1022353 << I think March 28th 2016 is the starting point for at least your logger and mine. (I haven't confirmed this on alf's, but I think his too starts at this date).	[16:42]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-19 19:15:31 diana_coman: lobbes: is that apr2012-oct2013 the only part currently missing from your logger's webpage?	[16:42]
diana_coman:	dorion: thanks for stating it.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	lobbes: ah; somehow I recall the raw archive and I'm pretty sure I have it; possibly there was some trouble at import and I never got around to sort it, nor really added it to the todo list.	[16:45]
diana_coman:	lobbes: do I take it that your bot imports everything from 2012 on?	[16:45]
lobbes:	diana_coman, no, only from 2016 on	[16:46]
diana_coman:	(because I'd really not "solve" stuff if there's no need for it; there's plenty to solve without adding to it things already solved)	[16:46]
lobbes:	mp imported those old logs from his personal logs	[16:46]
trinque:	diana_coman: I don't think mp was curating a personality cult.	[16:46]
trinque:	I made the claim that leadership authors culture, is all.	[16:47]
lobbes:	but, if we move to use the new blog-logger then he technically has all the data we'd need (just a dump from his mysql)	[16:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: the trouble was precisely that the raw-log archive only started at 2016-04.txt (actually the tail end of March) when asciilifeform built his logger and nobody online at the time had earlier except via lossy scraping.	[16:47]
trinque:	I also totally agree with your "catcall doesn't make her a whore" comment	[16:47]
trinque:	so I'll think on this more	[16:47]
diana_coman:	trinque: ok.	[16:48]
diana_coman:	lobbes: so what was with that custom reader you said you made/had? I'm confused now.	[16:48]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I have the reader, but MP has the full dataset. Since the original plan was that once he gets everything imported to trilema.com, I'd then be running a server with a copy of his data	[16:49]
diana_coman:	oh, I see; ok, I'll just ask him for a dump and sync with that when everything else is in place, not a problem.	[16:50]
lobbes:	nice :)	[16:50]
lobbes:	I'll be happy if this thing actually turns into.. something at least	[16:51]
lobbes:	bbl in a few	[16:52]
jfw:	I've been working through bvt's v.sh part 1. Not sure if I'd class it as a luxury or necessity in this case but either way the inline commentary is appreciated. mod6's v.pl may have great usage docs, but has zero code-level comments; rather a regression from the original v.py it seems to me.	[17:11]
jfw:	Got some questions queuing up, some of which have resolved themselves on further reading so I'll keep at that for now.	[17:11]
jfw:	brb in 10 mins	[17:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's how it usually goes with questions in my experience too so yeah, possibly worth finishing first one read and then asking whatever questions are still standing.	[17:19]
jfw:	right	[17:22]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[17:45]
whaack:	I am attempting to produce the list of channels I've successfully logged for (at least) 2 weeks without a disconnect lasting longer than N minutes. I have logs that contain the bots' JOIN / DISCONNECT timestamps for various channels. I need to run a postgres command with the psuedocode "list all channels whose first JOIN is > 2 weeks ago, excluding all channels that have a DISCONNECT without a	[18:00]
whaack:	following JOIN that occured within N minutes.	[18:00]
jfw:	whaack: something's missing from that pseudocode	[18:03]
jfw:	also dunno if it's a terminology difference between your code or cl-irc and irc protocol, but in the latter you PART or are KICKed from a channel, disconnect isn't an irc message	[18:04]
whaack:	is thinking about what's missing.	[18:05]
whaack:	jfw: It's a terminology difference. I considered myself connected when I receive a "JOIN" message from irc, and so I used the same term "JOIN" to denote connection to a channel. I use the term "DISCONNECT" because I can be disconnected from a channel for various reasons such as being KICK'd or losing connection to the network.	[18:07]
jfw:	what do you consider yourself when you've connected to the server but not yet joined any channels then? :P but suit yourself I suppose	[18:08]
whaack:	Here is the data http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=0dXY (and I realize I actually use "JOINED" rather than "JOIN")	[18:08]
whaack:	Right, better names could have been used. I also did not log the event of connecting to the server.	[18:09]
jfw:	re the pseudocode, just compare it to your stated goal in the same line	[18:09]
whaack:	k	[18:09]
whaack:	argh sorry, I actually do specify KICKs with KICKED	[18:10]
jfw:	uh, you do distinguish KICKED from DISCONNECTED though! -yep.	[18:11]
whaack:	(so first correction is excluding all channels that have a DISCONNECT _or KICKED_ without a following JOIN…)	[18:13]
dorion:	hey jfw check pm real quick	[18:13]
whaack:	jfw: Another problem with my pseudocode is that if I have a channel I joined 3 weeks ago that the bot successfully logged for 2 weeks, but then disconnected during the 3rd week, I would erroneously exclude that channel.	[18:16]
jfw:	right.	[18:16]
jfw:	whaack: I'll add that this sounds like a pretty tricky thing to do purely in SQL. You're looking at differences between subsequent events, which seems much better fit to a …list-processing language (even if just awk) than a set-processing one :)	[18:28]
jfw:	but maybe I'm just a sql-noob and there's a nice way, would love to see it.	[18:29]
whaack:	jfw: I was planning on taking the intersection of the channels that matched the above criteria with the channels I am currently connected to. There is a case where I don't properly log the DISCONNECT message – when the bot crashes. I am concerned that there is another case where I may stop logging a channel without receiving a KICK/DISCONNECT message that I have not considered.	[18:32]
jfw:	whaack: do you think the intersection solves that problem?	[18:37]
jfw:	if considering all disconnect cases is really too hard, maybe look for where the time since last message from a given server (irrespective of channel) exceeds a given timeout	[18:41]
jfw:	that'll be prone to false positives of course.	[18:42]
whaack:	jfw: No the intersection is not really a solution. Perhaps taking that intersection and seeing if it even reduces the original set at all will give some evidence of a problem, but it won't do more than that.	[18:46]
jfw:	I'd have thought the bot would automatically move on to the next channel in the queue after 2 weeks thus it'd be more concerning if there wasn't a reduction there (dunno how long it's been going though)	[18:50]
jfw:	anyway I'm off for now.	[18:50]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/19/the-soap-rush-and-the-toilet-roll-bubble/ << Ossa Sepia — The Soap Rush And the Toilet Roll Bubble	[19:40]
whaack:	jfw: thanks. atm there is no functionality to automatically rotate through channels.	[23:44]

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#ossasepia Logs for 18 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:20 pm

jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Mar-2020#1022184 – those darn prophecies: would I have finished it today if he hadn't said that?	[03:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-17 04:48:43 dorion: maybe you will get that saturday review afterall jfw, lol.	[03:23]
jfw:	I was pretty distracted / unfocused today. But at least I get to bed before 2am. Small steps back toward a routine.	[03:25]
jfw:	spyked: I tried a "!1subscribe http://trilema.com/feed/" to feedbot now that's no longer delivered via #t; it responds "Please provide a valid feed URL".	[03:27]
jfw:	lobbes: in that log import project you ever get a hold of the pre-2016 ones (ie. #b-a) in a raw form? It's the kinda thing I'd like to have around and afaik phf never shared what MP had given him to seed btcbase.	[03:32]
dorion:	jfw I think you need a space between the 1 and s	[03:50]
spyked:	jfw, should be fixed (was a bug in feedparse), pl0x try again	[04:14]
spyked:	for some reason it didn't like "naked" tags (the trilema feed contains an empty "dc:creator" tag that it previously didn't?) so it croaked suddenly. ftr, I rewrote one of the feed parsing functions in a haste, so I'm not discounting the possibility of further bugs	[04:18]
spyked:	will reload this fully in head later, re-read and publish patch	[04:19]
dorion:	hey spyked, good to hear from you.	[04:22]
spyked:	hey dorion	[05:03]
spyked:	btw, in case feedbot PM seems too annoying: #spyked is still set to notify on all the feeds from #trilema, plus a few others; but I can also add them here (or elsewhere) if e.g. diana_coman finds it useful	[05:04]
diana_coman:	hi spyked , long time no see	[05:06]
diana_coman:	I still have #trilema feeds in PM; now that the log dump is finished I don't expect it will be any trouble as it is, really	[05:07]
diana_coman:	that being said, when I get around to do all updates, I'll see.	[05:08]
spyked:	hi diana_coman ; ok, lemme know when/if you need any updates to the #o rss	[05:13]
diana_coman:	thanks & will do.	[05:23]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-18-Mar-2020#1022242 – lolz, blame it on cassandra nao? jfw, anyways, roll it now together into the one at the end of this week and just review both; only do it by Friday better and be done with it.	[05:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-18 03:23:08 jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-17-Mar-2020#1022184 – those darn prophecies: would I have finished it today if he hadn't said that?	[05:25]
diana_coman:	waves	[16:21]
dorion:	hi diana_coman	[16:22]
diana_coman:	hi dorion, how's the draft coming along?	[16:22]
dorion:	still working the plan where we left off yesterday.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	take the time it takes.	[16:23]
jfw:	hi diana_coman. roger on rolling up the review, thanks.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: np; what are you working on this week anyway?	[16:24]
dorion:	I got distracted yesterday by a) family business (both parents work at hospital, virus panic kicked in yest) and b) and patching a relationship locally with a guy I had trouble with about 17 months ago or so.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	I see.	[16:28]
jfw:	Some more articles to write for the blog, overdue housekeeping in the vein of reading more of the V publications, deciding on a keccakized one, testing the keccakized trb tree, and time permitting, that 'gypsy key' and ledger genesis. Also we have another unix + management Saturday session on the calendar.	[16:29]
jfw:	Reviewing dorion's draft(s).	[16:29]
dorion:	diana_coman for the what we've done opening of the draft, I'm proceeding from university to present at a high level with links. i.e. what we've done as individuals prior to jwrd, leading into the feature offering of jwrd, i.e. the hardware + software + training package.	[16:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: iirc from yesterday there was the idea of having a clear statement of the problem you are solving there, so hopefully it fits in your outline above; other than that sure, go ahead and write it so that there's something to look at and talk about; there's not all that much to say just on an outline at that level.	[16:35]
dorion:	diana_coman right, what we've done, the problem and our solution, clients who have had success, and how to work with us.	[16:44]
jfw:	isn't the "what we've done" more about what we've done about the particular problem rather than our whole backstories? At least for the intro.	[16:46]
dorion:	that will certainly cut to the chase much faster.	[16:57]
diana_coman:	dorion: jfw is right above; you can still give a very brief background but usually that's a bit to the side ie a sort of short bio for each at the bottom or something	[16:59]
dorion:	very glad I asked.	[16:59]
diana_coman:	cool, getting to grips with those question-tools!	[17:00]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow	[17:40]
jfw:	spyked: thx for fixing, the subscribe worked now.	[17:54]

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#ossasepia Logs for 17 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:10 pm

dorion:	lobbes congrats on getting the job done.	[00:07]
BingoBoingo:	[http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021916] Apologies. I did an experiment and found connecting Putas and Punters they way I thought a newspaper could isn't going to work. I got a hotel room in the tourist part of town for two nights, loaded up what would have been the competition, and tried to hire one of the independent girls advertising themselves as available for hotels.	[02:37]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 16:16:39 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021894 – what is this exactly? you know, don't do "some X" – if you take the time to say it, then say something more concrete at least	[02:37]
BingoBoingo:	Nothing weird, "I'm at X hotel". There were numerous insane transportation arrangements that didn't work, a few committments to meet followed by flaking, and the nail in the coffin was a girl that didn't believe there could be a foreigner in a hotel in Pocitos that would be interested in ordering her services the way someone orders food delivered. "Las chicas, nos cuida mucho"	[02:38]
BingoBoingo:	On a platform where the girls pay to advertise, one almost made it before cancelling because her plans for travellin 5km fell apart as the one taxi or Uber but not through Uber she was determined to secure didn't work out. ~50 percent advertised their location as "Tres Cruces", which has the bus terminal and is the hub for travel inside Uruguay.	[02:38]
BingoBoingo:	Sex may sell, but it won't do delivery.	[02:38]
BingoBoingo:	The web thing actually, for it's part worked. Or appeared to work.	[02:40]
BingoBoingo:	And so one point from the napkin sketching can be eliminated from cause.	[02:48]
jfw:	missed my "I'll finish the review tomorrow" already; now thinking better to reschedule for Tuesday than to further mess up sleep trying to finish right now. and I could have decided that earlier too.	[04:44]
dorion:	maybe you will get that saturday review afterall jfw, lol.	[04:48]
diana_coman:	ahahah, dorion has a point!	[04:49]
dorion:	will take that high note to sleep and be back later today.	[04:50]
diana_coman:	laters!	[04:51]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: and that would have made – even as written in here, no need to fuss over it and polish it for hours – a great blog post too!	[04:58]
diana_coman:	(not that it can't still make one)	[04:59]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Ty, It'll find its way into a blogging. Seeing how over-reliance on thinking to solve problems is a problem in itself, I locked myself into a "don't think do" chant until the answer came clear.	[13:11]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/17/shape-up-yer-polygons-eulora/ << Ossa Sepia — Shape Up Yer Polygons, Eulora!	[15:47]
dorion:	diana_coman, jfw, here's what I have so far for the jwrd sales article : http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=RrLV	[16:22]
jfw:	looks	[16:23]
dorion:	there's still a lot to write, but that's where I'm at and the direction I plan to go.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	dorion: meant to ask actually – are those high net worth smart etc individuals really in Panama?	[16:27]
diana_coman:	and I admit I have quite the trouble imagining one of those reading you before he knows who you are, huh.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	dorion, jfw would you class your clients so far in that category?	[16:31]
dorion:	diana_coman there are those people here. it is a club I have some relationships. I'm not pretending it's not an uphill battle, but think it's wortht he try.	[16:31]
dorion:	diana_coman clients so far are young investors that retired from trading smart and now know they need to protect what they have.	[16:32]
dorion:	they came to panama for tax reasons.	[16:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: mhm; "investors" as in they got to get some btc and so far keep it, isn't it?	[16:33]
dorion:	diana_coman moreso, yeah.	[16:34]
jfw:	I don't know the net worth really but they also invest in companies and have some people on payroll.	[16:34]
diana_coman:	jfw: yeah, well, I'm sure they do.	[16:35]
dorion:	jfw those investments haven't paid off so far and not clear at all atm that they will.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	heh; what dorion says and at the root of that it's the fact that I can just about imagine the sort of investment and decision-making behind it.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	nothing wrong with helping them or targeting them, of course	[16:37]
diana_coman:	just hm, there are some choices you make and I'm not even sure you fully realise you are making them	[16:37]
diana_coman:	re title, both versions sound a bit long to me, but I prefer the first (or maybe even directly from "protect what …"); details though.	[16:39]
diana_coman:	dorion: why not going directly for a clear, concise and with-examples/projections/all thing? ie why all the telling-of-the-things-you-say-you-know-they-know? in a nutshell, the trouble that I see with your approach there is that it's so standard & geared to exactly the "investors", that if ever an actual investor sees it, he brands you as "security"	[16:42]
jfw:	yeah, but he generously permits you to say what you really think in a comment or email!	[16:43]
diana_coman:	you have done things and you are doing things, so why not say what you did and talk of what you are doing ?	[16:44]
jfw:	'system' and 'environment' seem to be used in a technical sense that might not be clear in context	[16:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, you are clearly feeling better than yesterday :P	[16:45]
dorion:	diana_coman the idea is to establish who I'm writing to and why they should care.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: this being said, nothing stops you I suppose from printing that sort of material and giving it to specific-known-"investors" if you think it's what they need to read in order to move but mhm.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: you establish who you are writing to for yourself; let the reader establish himself if what you say is of interest for him or not,	[16:46]
diana_coman:	do realise that anyway, saying "I'm writing for those with 2 heads and 3 brains" does not do anything as such.	[16:47]
dorion:	diana_coman ok. it is a projection, which will be clear to who I do want to reach anyway.	[16:47]
dorion:	and perhaps a reason to close the tab.	[16:48]
diana_coman:	I know it flies in the face of ~all "sales training and practice etc" and believe me that I recognize in there the usual pattern, not like I don't know it; but further ask yourself, even if you ignore everything above, just this simple thing – how exactly are you supposed to stand out while …following the very pattern, you know?	[16:49]
dorion:	diana_coman right. the pattern following tactic may work for people selling to established patterns. we have, in many ways, a pattern breaking service.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	dorion: what you want is to talk the language of those you want to reach; that's way more fundamental than the usual approach of "and now I'll tell you who you are so you know and continue reading"	[16:51]
dorion:	or pattern replacing at least.	[16:51]
diana_coman:	dorion: and as a rule, if your business does not do anything better ie by necessity different in at least some way that matters, why are you doing it in the first place, it's more of a fashion then than a business.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	this being said, again, if face to face you found out that for those "investors" you need to tell them what they supposedly know they know etc, do tell them, sure; face to face you can adjust precisely to who is in front of you, after all; (but hm, do think also if it's worth it anyway; still.)	[16:54]
dorion:	diana_coman all very good points. adjustments to make :	[16:56]
diana_coman:	anyway, getting back to the main point: if you aim to write for martians, you'll write in martian, not in usual English except with an intro paragraph "if you are a martian, then this is for you"	[16:56]
dorion:	1) cut out the assumptions at the beginning, 2) start with what we've done, 3) then the benefits of the service, i.e. what we do better, 4) then proceed from the testimonials down.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	dorion: sounds like a plan	[16:59]
jfw:	I'm recalling advice from the "investor" crowd of "start with Why". Which makes sense to me, as it's what motivates us; we didn't pick what to build at random	[17:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure,that means start with the problem you are solving, yes; but the actual problem, not a reader's profile	[17:04]
jfw:	ah, no I didn't mean the existing draft does that.	[17:05]
diana_coman:	the problem statement IS part of the "what we've done", anyway.	[17:05]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks. no more questions come to mind at present. I'll proceed with the plan unless you are jfw have any more points/questions atm. goal is to have the draft done tonight.	[17:17]
jfw:	dorion: I had some smaller points but thinking best to see what comes out of the larger rework first.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	dorion: I am certainly not jfw! lolz; but no, nothing further than I can see – I mean, I already tore apart your ~whole current draft, so I'm done.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	that*	[17:21]
jfw:	there is nothing further than diana_coman can see!	[17:22]
dorion:	thanks for the tearing, back to sowing machine.	[17:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, might be the glasses!	[17:23]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 16 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 8:00 pm

dorion:	hey whaack, welcome back. are you still banking on the trip to panama in a couple weeks ?	[00:08]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021809 – this is what it was. it felt uncomfortable to say, but I thought it needed	[00:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 19:20:23 trinque: sure, for all I know he thought he was doing the dutiful thing above.	[00:10]
dorion:	to be said and good discomfort is where growth happens.	[00:10]
dorion:	diana_coman noted passivity and hedging prior, which I took as, "someone needs to step up." I didn't see anyone else doing it, so I asked why not me and shared what I shared in channel.	[00:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 16:32:37 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020902 – I would add that operations should continue in a different way; not just the passive "things will be different"; and I'd be quite interested in hearing what each of you thinks on this "different how" , too	[00:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 04:59:18 diana_coman: lobbes: that "or something like that" is quite the hedging.	[00:10]
whaack:	dorion: yes I am, provided no coronavirus problems happen with the airport	[00:11]
dorion:	note that much of what preceeded the question at the end was me trying to comprehend the situation. it turns out I was wrong in parts, s	[00:11]
dorion:	o now I know.	[00:11]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021806 – I very much appreciate the discussion on the dangers and costs. I don't kno	[00:11]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 19:19:32 diana_coman: trinque: I think re dangers and costs we are quite clear and for that matter experience-informed enough; do realise though that dorion doesn't have that experience (nor the same temperament for that matter, heh)	[00:11]
dorion:	know how much people here realize the difference in temperment between jfw and myself, but I've said so before.	[00:12]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-17 16:34:57 dorion: e.g I reckon jfw and I would've been enemies when younger since our interests were quite unaligned.	[00:12]
dorion:	damns the broken lines.	[00:12]
dorion:	whaack, how is costa rican gov't handling the situation ? panama stopped air traffic to/from europe and asia.	[00:13]
whaack:	dorion: i am unaware of any actions they've taken; i saw some coronvirus warning signs at the airport when i dropped of my friends and I believe customs is questioning people if they've been to Italy/Korea/China/others recently	[00:17]
dorion:	the panic started here mon/tues. cancelled school, large gatherings, etc.	[00:18]
dorion:	el presidente assurred the banks are solvent though, so there is that..	[00:21]
whaack:	lol	[00:21]
whaack:	they cancelled a weekly pop up night market they do on Thursdays in Tamarindo, so I guess the panic has hit here as well to some degree	[00:23]
dorion:	whaack, grocery stores still in good shape in your sticks ?	[00:27]
whaack:	dorion: i haven't checked recently, the one near me is always out of stock on various items, so i have to do a trip to Santa Cruz / Tamarindo for a real assestment	[00:33]
whaack:	dorion: are the ones in Panama City in bad shape?	[00:35]
dorion:	I only stopped by one on friday, it was still alright, but definitely not as plentiful as usual.	[00:36]
dorion:	is off for the evening, will bb tomorrow.	[00:38]
whaack:	dorion: night	[00:39]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/16/wh-week-21-22-review-mar-2nd-march-15th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Week 21, 22 Review Mar 2nd – March 15th	[01:05]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/16/wh-plan-for-week-23-mar-16th-mar-22nd/ << Young Hands Club — WH Plan for Week 23 (Mar 16th – Mar 22nd)	[01:09]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I just got those historical log dumps to MP now, but I need to head to bed. I'll aim to get my weekly review/plan tomorrow	[01:27]
BingoBoingo:	got some market research started	[01:32]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/16/ar-review-march-9th-march-15th-and-plan-march-16th-22nd/ << Young Hands Club — AR Review March 9th – March 15th And Plan March 16th – 22nd	[01:37]
jfw:	missing my review deadline again here, which I guess makes the point about "hopefully".	[03:29]
jfw:	trinque: is this sorta thing what you had in mind with http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021360 ? or was that finger pointing somewhere else	[03:31]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 18:07:28 trinque: I've also seen some "I've been a very naughty boy and I must be punished"	[03:31]
jfw:	I dunno, this time I'm finding an extra layer of not giving a damn on top of whatever usual hangups. dorion might have noticed, who's been trying to help push me along.	[03:33]
jfw:	trinque: and I don't mean to be snide there, I'd appreciate the finger pointing if it were specific enough to be useful; diana_coman explicitly doesn't want us beating ourselves up.	[03:46]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021857 – it's a very plain/concrete matter along those lines: on one hand, web wallets for all that they are otherwise have been doing this service (sure, together with ~everything else that comes with the way in which that doing is done, no argument there); on the other hand, you have not been doing this as a service (and that includes publicly, of course) and all your …	[04:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 21:42:13 jfw: diana_coman: I am no closer than this morning to enlightenment on – nevermind why he says it – how it could be that web wallets physically exist while the thing I offered does not.	[04:42]
diana_coman:	… knowledge of the matter and even any private experience you might have does not, can not work as a replacement for that; in other words, it's true that someone could choose to go with you on this, but they would not be using a service because you haven't yet built that service; you probably can build it and I'd say you are capable of building it, sure, but it's not there and so it can't be used.	[04:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: does the above make sense?	[04:43]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021899 – this is not "being stoical about it" btw, quite on the contrary; I hope you are around this evening and I get to hear what you make of it all too and of moving forwards.	[04:44]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 03:33:23 jfw: I dunno, this time I'm finding an extra layer of not giving a damn on top of whatever usual hangups. dorion might have noticed, who's been trying to help push me along.	[04:44]
jfw:	Good morning diana_coman. My mind's pretty much been wandering all over; I have only notes from reviewing, and pretty tired now, going to call it for tonight and finish tomorrow. I think that's a first for me. I understand it may thus not get your feedback.	[04:52]
jfw:	Re wallet, it makes sense it's not a built-out service; indeed it was a one-time offer.	[04:56]
jfw:	And I could certainly understand "don't want or choose to use", but I still don't follow the jump to "can't be used". Anyway, turning in now but I will be around tomorrow.	[04:59]
jfw:	well, this evening for you.	[04:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: have some rest & we'll talk later, no worries.	[05:14]
jfw:	because apparently I can't sleep until I say it: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021905 – yes; closer to nihilistic perhaps. The situation has been getting to me more as the days have progressed, and I seem to have a sampler of a little each of fight, flight, freeze.	[05:49]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 04:44:48 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021899 – this is not "being stoical about it" btw, quite on the contrary; I hope you are around this evening and I get to hear what you make of it all too and of moving forwards.	[05:49]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021901 – that was my reading of his response as well.	[13:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 04:42:52 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021857 – it's a very plain/concrete matter along those lines: on one hand, web wallets for all that they are otherwise have been doing this service (sure, together with ~everything else that comes with the way in which that doing is done, no argument there); on the other hand, you have not been doing this as a service (and that includes publicly, of course) and all your …	[13:29]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021894 – what is this exactly? you know, don't do "some X" – if you take the time to say it, then say something more concrete at least	[16:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 01:32:11 BingoBoingo: got some market research started	[16:16]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021909 – jfw, as you said it one line prior, there was no service but a "one-time offer"; now take it from there and follow it with me – if there's no service, than how could it be used? it's really as simple and straightforward at that (and the difficulty in seeing /accepting/working with this sort of very cutting, precise definitions is the "thinking too much" part)	[16:21]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 04:59:06 jfw: And I could certainly understand "don't want or choose to use", but I still don't follow the jump to "can't be used". Anyway, turning in now but I will be around tomorrow.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021912 – fwiw, the initial reaction looked more like numb than anything else.	[16:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 05:49:11 jfw: because apparently I can't sleep until I say it: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021905 – yes; closer to nihilistic perhaps. The situation has been getting to me more as the days have progressed, and I seem to have a sampler of a little each of fight, flight, freeze.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	dorion, jfw did you have some jwrd questions you wanted to ask?	[16:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: the cutting definitions and their usage are at once enticing and confusing/surprising.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	lobbes: what was the initial plan with the logbot and that server, I hadn't followed too closely and now I'm rather unclear on it.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's a very…practical practicality, what can I say; also, pretty much the only one that really works for the best (ie most efficiently & effectively, so output vs expenditure, not "best" or whatevers)	[16:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: for possibly-simpler analogy: if I offer to wash someone's car, just the once, it follows that the offer can't be taken because I don't do it as a regular service? hm, I guess I could see it as a higher-level strategy like that	[16:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: it follows that it's at most a friendly /personal thing, not a service/business interaction, if that helps.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	ie sure, you can offer to wash your friend's car and he may agree to it but that's no "washing car service" and it can't possibly work if you are not already friends.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: btw, MP answered himself in quite clear terms the q re what was his role in TMSR	[16:30]
jfw:	I think I see, yeah, or at least not seeing a way to dispute that.	[16:30]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021922 – the biggest question right now is, without tmsr, what are the mid to long term prospects for bitcoin. is it still something we should focus on ?	[16:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 16:24:06 diana_coman: dorion, jfw did you have some jwrd questions you wanted to ask?	[16:30]
dorion:	I think so, but not sure if it's wishful thinking	[16:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: now that's a very loaded question, heh	[16:31]
diana_coman:	basically you'll have to break it down in less oracle-level questions, I don't feel quite that much of an oracle myself.	[16:32]
dorion:	hey, I know and maybe one of the harder questions to answer. but it's been a cornerstone of the decisions I've made in my 20s.	[16:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: thanks, yeah I saw that about "oracle of last resort"	[16:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: but note that there's a bit in your question that I fully don't comprehend and it's that "should"; how does it come in there?	[16:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: what was that decision based on ?	[16:33]
dorion:	that fiat currencies are at risk of massive devaluation and bitcoin is better money than precious metals.	[16:34]
diana_coman:	dorion: while I think I get what & where you are coming from there, you are passing the decision there rather than asking to clarify; it's a very poor question on several levels really.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	dorion: so then, did any of that change meanwhile?	[16:35]
diana_coman:	are fiat currencies at less risk of massive devaluation?	[16:35]
diana_coman:	is bitcoin worse money than precious metals?	[16:35]
dorion:	no, they're not and even moreso given the interventions the past week.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: so then?	[16:37]
jfw:	bitcoin however, like precious metals though in a different way, rests on political foundations, and those have shifted since last week	[16:38]
dorion:	it seems like bitcoin requires human input and maintainence, which is what trb was trying to do. but on the other hand, I guess this shows I don't fully grasp [http://trilema.com/2016/thats-right-time-to-move-on-please-do-bitcoin-is-really-not-for-you/?b=Bitcoin\%20is\%20not\%20a\%20product#select][Bitcoin being a rule}	[16:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes; what is the shift and what does it mean?	[16:39]
dorion:	Bitcoin being a rule	[16:39]
dorion:	diana_coman the shift in my mind : the most important man in Bitcoin will be less public about it that he had been.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	dorion: where do you get the Bitcoin requires human input and maintenance and moreover the next jump to "which is what trb was trying to do"?	[16:41]
dorion:	it requires people to run nodes and trb was trying to make better software to reduce the cost of operators.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	dorion: that much seems quite a reasonable description indeed; what does that do/mean for a. bitcoin vs precious metals b. your decision on whether focus or not on btc	[16:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: (I'm being slow here apparently) that's the question indeed. I would guess that MP might still hold bitcoin, influence decisions behind the scenes, but isn't raising a banner in public or providing guidance.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	dorion: let me ask this from a different side – do you consider it was some /any of the activity/products such as they were coming out of public-tmsr that saved btc at crisis points (I'll assume you are aware of at least a few of those) ?	[16:44]
dorion:	diana_coman good question.	[16:45]
jfw:	I recall DNS vulnerabilities, but I see that protecting individual operators more than bitcoin as a whole	[16:46]
jfw:	heartbleed predated trb if I recall	[16:47]
dorion:	diana_coman none that immediately come to mind, no. the blocksize stayed, but I can't say with any certainty that trb had anything to do with that.	[16:47]
jfw:	the bigger BIP fireworks though were resolved by miner decisions	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: do mind that you look not only at "event + when" but specifically at "who and what did they do that had effect", ok?	[16:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: sure. and you say you're not a journalist!	[16:48]
diana_coman:	ahaha, now I wonder if I should class that as an insult on par with "you want to make your own philosophy!!"	[16:49]
jfw:	up to you I guess but was meant as compliment fwiw.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	but no, jfw and dorion, you really need to learn to evaluate things properly	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: I was just having fun there, I got your meaning, don't worry :)	[16:50]
diana_coman:	(but no, I still don't think I am a journalist, nevertheless)	[16:51]
dorion:	diana_coman do you have recommened reading for starting at square one there. I'm ready to go back to kindergarten.	[16:51]
jfw:	not worried.	[16:51]
jfw:	maybe we work with the example here?	[16:51]
dorion:	diana_coman and it doesn't have to be in english, i'll learn the language I need to /should have long ago.	[16:52]
jfw:	dorion: ahaha. might be more helpful to learn to evaluate things better this year though	[16:53]
diana_coman:	jfw: indeed; dorion it's something you'll probably learn faster through practice and observation ie paying attention to what makes a better evaluation and why and how, this sort of thing; re square one, the trouble there is that it likely depends on which and what parts you are missing and I can't fully tell like that (there seem to be quite a few fundamentals but sheesh)	[16:53]
dorion:	diana_coman ok. jfw what I'm after is actually gettting it right.	[16:54]
diana_coman:	dorion: I do appreciate your dedication there but use it better for making the most of what you have direct access too as there's neither some book-packaged solution that can get you fully there, nor the time to fix it all (language included!) in one go like that.	[16:55]
dorion:	diana_coman ok, fair enough.	[16:56]
diana_coman:	dorion: be after getting it first clear (ie look at what and how you do) and then gradually better; that comes with getting it plenty of times horribly wrong, yes; so maybe make sure you get those wrongs in here where they don't hurt you as much as outside/directly in your business interactions or something, that's pretty much it.	[16:57]
dorion:	diana_coman it's that easy ?!	[16:58]
diana_coman:	dorion: and you know, let's say I tell you re management – go better and read Moltke and Clausewitz because there's way more and more useful than the packaged drucker; and you go and dutifully read – does that mean you got it "right"? does it even mean you got out of it what and why I recommended it ?	[16:58]
dorion:	loljk	[16:58]
diana_coman:	dorion: yes, mountains of easy abound!	[16:59]
dorion:	diana_coman good point about the reading and it occurs now it's an example of the overthinking.	[16:59]
jfw:	this recalls how I tried to clarify up front what MP's expectations were for the wallet meeting, he said to skip the prequel, then I found out clear enough what I shoulda known, heh.	[16:59]
jfw:	even if still needing diana_coman to spell it out afterward.	[17:00]
diana_coman:	dorion: for that matter, if I were to recommend "how to learn to make better decisions", I'd recommend practice – the sort that is guaranteed to result in either learning or death; but for one thing, where the fuck is that nowadays like that to just be had for the asking and for the other thing, it's still not reading, heh.	[17:01]
jfw:	shouldn't one strive to learn from the past to reduce the odds on the 'death' branch though?	[17:03]
dorion:	reminds me of athletics, how do you raise your "court iq" in basketball ? play a whole fucking lot with the older kids, get beat up and keep going rather than running home to mommy.	[17:03]
jfw:	or from my world, you learn to write good code by writing lots of bad code	[17:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: there's no should anywhere anyway.	[17:04]
diana_coman:	dorion: pretty much; and moreover, I suspect there's a clear difference between those who only ever played school-room "matches in a relaxed atmosphere with peers" vs those who learnt with the older, certainly not-school and not "supportive" older kids.	[17:06]
jfw:	diana_coman: gazing in wonder at how deep that might go… but, better put "reading is one strategy with its advantages and limitations" ?	[17:07]
dorion:	for sure, the sandlot was the best lot and plenty of fights broke out.	[17:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: better put, "reading can help if you are smart but it's an extra really"	[17:10]
diana_coman:	dorion: well, the trouble is that in many ways both of you seem to have only ever played this decision and business and whatnots only in the schoolroom, relaxed atmosphere with supportive etc.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	not sure how to put that in terms that make more sense to you but I've seen it before, ie it's not just you.	[17:12]
dorion:	diana_coman it seems to me that it was more manaloning and dreaming.	[17:12]
diana_coman:	dorion: perhaps.	[17:13]
jfw:	those seem related though. we saw the rough&tumble environment in #b-a but stayed in a safe bubble	[17:14]
dorion:	e.g. coinapult wasn't a school room and I wasn't relaxed and watched it fall. which from there I did a 180 and let jfw carry on with wanting to perfect things before publishing.	[17:14]
dorion:	i didn't watch it fall, but I was there working while it fell.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	it's possibly even more exactly that lack of any walls of any sort – anything "goes", there's nothing truly pushing back meaningfully.	[17:15]
dorion:	probably, yeah.	[17:16]
diana_coman:	dorion: I know what you mean and that is why I even said it anyway helped you, even as such; as did the athletics, possibly even more than if you paid attention in class for that matter and to settle that part once and for all; but it's still not covering fully what I mean because even though it seemed & felt rough, I'm sure, it wasn't… enough.	[17:17]
diana_coman:	dorion: and the trouble with "wasn't relaxed" is that tense but disoriented is not helping, no.	[17:18]
diana_coman:	anyways, this was not meant as some evaluation of any past as such, it's not that the point.	[17:19]
jfw:	There was one big wall-hitting experience early in my summer jobs, of the "too little too late" sort; I never ended up liking the manager in question but certainly learned from the experience and lesser followups. But I could see that was more the exception than the rule.	[17:19]
jfw:	hm, similar with undergrad thesis advisor now that I think of it.	[17:20]
dorion:	diana_coman good point on the tense and disoriented, that is exactly what it was.	[17:20]
dorion:	diana_coman ok, so coming here and being more open and using the wall I can do for sure.	[17:22]
diana_coman:	dorion: see, easy!	[17:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: liking is not mandatory for that matter, no	[17:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: fwiw, I had a programming prof in year 1 that I totally disliked; that's not to say I didn't appreciate his insistence on matters including "format properly the darned output, you idiots" and the like.	[17:25]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion anyways, we started from jwrd and we got to my year 1 programming prof so hm, how about we circle back now?	[17:27]
dorion:	diana_coman sure.	[17:28]
jfw:	was just about to say; http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021956 for example.	[17:28]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 16:44:20 diana_coman: dorion: let me ask this from a different side – do you consider it was some /any of the activity/products such as they were coming out of public-tmsr that saved btc at crisis points (I'll assume you are aware of at least a few of those) ?	[17:28]
jfw:	(not that I don't enjoy storytimes.)	[17:29]
jfw:	one crisis point that stands out for my not mentioning because "obvious" was the proposed block size fork	[17:30]
dorion:	for jwrd, I think showing clients how to run trb and gbw should remain an anchor of the business. we never said bitcoin was to save them and always said it has it's own risks that nevertheless are worth bearing for the long-term upside.	[17:32]
jfw:	Gavin was pushing for that, while MP rejected it, holding the line that he'd defeat the fork in the market if it happened, and everyone following it would lose their shirt.	[17:32]
dorion:	allowed a should to leak back in.	[17:33]
diana_coman:	dorion: let's unroll this back to the beginning because that's the stuff required in the first place for any proper evaluations – knowing what the fuck you are even evaluating there in the first place;	[17:33]
diana_coman:	look, you asked this question	[17:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 16:30:51 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1021922 – the biggest question right now is, without tmsr, what are the mid to long term prospects for bitcoin. is it still something we should focus on ?	[17:34]
diana_coman:	that already linked tmsr to jwrd's focus on bitcoin	[17:34]
diana_coman:	for no clear reason really other than the association tmsr-bitcoin I gather	[17:35]
diana_coman:	now above it sounds like there's yet another jump ie from jwrd's focus on bitcoin to clients' being saved by it	[17:35]
diana_coman:	at which point I'm totally baffled because from everything else until now and reading your jwrd business plan such as it was published and ~everything else, there was never any mention of any saving or of any "focus on bitcoin" even; your offering was a security solution essentially	[17:37]
dorion:	I mean with the save by that we're not and have never been overpromising.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	dorion: but what are you exactly promising because by now it got all muddled up	[17:37]
dorion:	diana_coman the focus and promise is security through transparency and understanding, i.e. education.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok, so stick to that; what does no-tmsr change in that?	[17:39]
diana_coman:	or how does it even come in there, I don't se it	[17:39]
diana_coman:	see*	[17:39]
dorion:	the tmsr-bitcoin association.	[17:40]
jfw:	on that, I took "I'm sure it's just a coincidence." as insinuation that yes, such association exists	[17:40]
diana_coman:	jfw: association between what and what though, do go there all the way.	[17:41]
diana_coman:	dorion: "security through transparency and understanding, i.e. education" – where in this is tmsr??	[17:41]
diana_coman:	there isn't even bitcoin in there for that matter	[17:42]
dorion:	e.g. trb and V came from the context of tmsr. e.g. the declaration of sovereignty	[17:42]
jfw:	Between the viability of a political structure that can support bitcoin and the value of bitcoin	[17:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: that is a reasonable working hypothesis; what would you need to look at in order to evaluate if it's not totally wrong at least?	[17:43]
diana_coman:	this is pretty much how it goes from that end: you look at stuff; formulate the best hypothesis that fits everything; then you look for anything that does NOT fit, in the slightest (because it's both more important and easier to reject stuff than to "prove it")	[17:44]
jfw:	falsifiability comes to mind, so, looking for contrary evidence	[17:44]
diana_coman:	but for that to make any sense, you do need to work with clear and unchanging definitions + accurately expressed hypotheses because otherwise you'll just bounce all over the place and get nowhere /anywhere	[17:45]
diana_coman:	jfw: full marks at theory, 0 at practice there;	[17:45]
jfw:	yep.	[17:46]
diana_coman:	yeah, look already as in where/what do you even need to consider for finding relevant evidence	[17:46]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion are you aware of the time when MP announced publicly that he divests from bitcoin	[17:47]
diana_coman:	?	[17:47]
jfw:	yes	[17:47]
dorion:	diana_coman right now the core product/service is Coreboot supported hardware, Gales build, install configuration, command line training (if needed), gpg usage across airgap, fg reflashing and usage, bitcoin build, install and operation, gbw build/install and usage.	[17:47]
dorion:	diana_coman the miner problem.	[17:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: ok, what was the visible effect of that (if any)?	[17:48]
diana_coman:	of his announcement, I mean	[17:48]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok; what was the choice of those based on?	[17:48]
jfw:	I don't recall short-term (a failing) but longer term the price continued upward	[17:48]
diana_coman:	(just like with your original question "should I x?" always means you need to go back to how you decided to X in the first place and re-evaluate but from there not whatever free association comes to mind)	[17:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, short term it fell, ofc.	[17:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: what's the alternative hypothesis anyway?	[17:50]
diana_coman:	(never have only ONE hypothesis – that's no hypothesis but belief)	[17:50]
jfw:	wait, alternative to which now?	[17:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: are you aware of how you do statistical tests?	[17:51]
dorion:	diana_coman the decision was based on what we have and can support and what we think is worth supporting. we were building tools for ourselves and the business we were working on which involved custodying bitcoin and having clients we train to use gpg for trading bitcoin. which were based on security and bitcoin are important.	[17:51]
jfw:	diana_coman: by gathering a lot of samples, at the most basic	[17:52]
dorion:	s/are/being/	[17:52]
diana_coman:	dorion: why did you think it was worth supporting? why "bitcoin is important"?	[17:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, that's not testing, lolz; but ok, I didn't realise you didn't have that background, not a problem	[17:53]
dorion:	diana_coman because bitcoin is the soundest known money.	[17:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: aha, I'm weak on stats.	[17:53]
dorion:	and money is important because humans are, arguably, money based organisms.	[17:54]
diana_coman:	so, your hypothesis was that there's an association between the viability of tmsr and the value of bitcoin	[17:55]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 17:40:57 jfw: on that, I took "I'm sure it's just a coincidence." as insinuation that yes, such association exists	[17:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: right, though "value" is a bit vague as stated there.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	dorion: logically speaking that begs the question "why and how is it the soundest known money"?	[17:56]
jfw:	e.g. there's short-term price movement and where it ends up in a year or decade which can be totally different	[17:56]
diana_coman:	jfw: yeah, and this "an association" is also quite weak – at that level there's an association between anything and everything	[17:56]
diana_coman:	dorion: economics-based, like everything else, not specifically "money"	[17:58]
diana_coman:	but look at this that there's been already 4 layers of questions and still didn't get to some clear decision that you can re-evaluate	[17:59]
dorion:	diana_coman most fungible, most transferable and probably most accountable (both total supply and that it's implemented in counting machines), which give it the potential to become the most marketable as volatility dampens and it's cheaper to price other goods in.	[17:59]
diana_coman:	potential is cheap and worth ~0 by itself	[18:00]
jfw:	"man and woman in room together = potential grandkids!!"	[18:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: if your hypothesis is in fact that the viability of bitcoin depends on the viability of tmsr, the alternative hypothesis is at its simplest, the negation: the viability of bitcoin has nothing to do with the viability of tmsr (at which point you can look – what could it then have to do with?)	[18:03]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, even closer at home – intelligence = potential wealth, why not.	[18:04]
jfw:	ah thanks for cleaning that up, in particular I see the associated -> depends	[18:04]
jfw:	indeed.	[18:04]
jfw:	well, I could look that the first waves of bitcoin appreciation predated any explicit formulation of TMSR; but not sure that says anything about viability.	[18:06]
diana_coman:	dorion: working with what you said – all those qualities/characteristics of bitcoin are basically from its very definition; so in as much as your decision was based on that, what can change so that you have to change your decision?	[18:07]
diana_coman:	jfw: it doesn't and moreover, if you take early appreciation as an indicative of anything, you pretty much disqualify yourself from ~any discussion of bitcoin really, wtf.	[18:08]
jfw:	sure, anything can be a bubble.	[18:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: not only that, but there's known history there ie you can go and actually look at each wave of appreciation/depreciation and study it if you want to say something based on it	[18:09]
diana_coman:	anyways, it seems what got uncovered today is more the fact that you aren't at all that clear on your own aim there, huh	[18:10]
diana_coman:	dorion, jfw did you have other, more specific questions beyond this overall "does it still make sense to have anything to do with btc"?	[18:11]
dorion:	diana_coman bitcoin ceasing to exist is what comes to mind.	[18:11]
dorion:	diana_coman we will, but basically we're re-evaluating as much as makes sense and this was where we were at.	[18:13]
jfw:	I'm grasping at straws because I don't know I'd look for evidence of viability or not.	[18:13]
jfw:	*don't know how	[18:13]
diana_coman:	dorion: that's way too late to claim a "change of decision", you see? at that point it's not that you changed your decision, there's no question left to require a decision anymore	[18:14]
dorion:	I think we go on with what we already have and continue to expand the noncore.	[18:14]
dorion:	diana_coman I see.	[18:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: death comes from weak/problem points as always; you probably know enough of both technicals and history to identify plenty; you look at what/how/who handled them and then you can at least say whether you have any evidence re viability of btc and what it may be linked to	[18:16]
diana_coman:	dorion: let's try to reconstruct this so perhaps it makes more sense as an example than as a failed attempt to come up with a previously implicit decision process	[18:17]
dorion:	diana_coman ok.	[18:17]
diana_coman:	the clearest was this	[18:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 16:34:36 dorion: that fiat currencies are at risk of massive devaluation and bitcoin is better money than precious metals.	[18:18]
diana_coman:	so that seems to be the basis for your decision process, that's what you go with.	[18:19]
diana_coman:	the first part still stands clearly, if not even stronger, you said, so nothing to change from there	[18:19]
diana_coman:	the second part – does the end of tmsr make bitcoin worse money than precious metals?	[18:19]
diana_coman:	you can assume the worst and look at that	[18:20]
diana_coman:	so let's say "perhaps it does"; why/how ?	[18:20]
diana_coman:	the other avenue that you still have to explore anyway is to go directly from the change: so tmsr ended, ok; what does that change re bitcoin? as jfw said, there's no more political structure aiming to support and promote btc; this begs the question – how much did this tmsr-as-political-structure actually supported and promoted btc in the first place?	[18:22]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion do you have clear answers for the above?	[18:23]
dorion:	one way could be if cryptographically safe hardware runs out, or we lack the capacity to source it, then we're giving clients a false sense of security. tmsr was working towards cryptographically safe hardware.	[18:23]
jfw:	why/how: if nodes became centralized, they'd eventually be taken over by one or more states, which would make it just a less efficient fiat currency.	[18:23]
diana_coman:	dorion: "was working towards" is worth 0; for the same money you can consider that you are working towards that, what's there to stop you, there's no difference.	[18:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: you unstated assumption in there is that it's tmsr-as-an-institution that ensured the nodes were not centralized; in which case you'll have to answer: HOW did it do that?	[18:24]
diana_coman:	dorion: it's not about "what could be", you can't know that anyway; it's about what IS; and at most what changed aka what was but now isn't + what wasn't but now is.	[18:26]
diana_coman:	this is not an exercise of imagination "what could be"	[18:26]
diana_coman:	anything could be, for all you know rsa will be broken tomorrow; not useful to waste time on that.	[18:26]
dorion:	diana_coman I think I'm getting to the point tmsr is dead because tmsr failed to exist.	[18:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: the part that tmsr did was getting an old implementation somewhat cleaned up and ensuring it'd remain available to install / run. The part that MP possibly along with other wealthy holders did was discouraging forks in the field.	[18:27]
dorion:	it was tried, the plans were put in place and structures created, but it's closed because it failed to stand on its feet.	[18:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: the ensuring it'd remain available did exactly 0; sure, it's available; so what?	[18:28]
diana_coman:	dorion: it pretty much failed to even materialise really but yes	[18:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: for the cleaned up and ensuring it remains available, it's at any rate something you can most easily do, no?	[18:28]
diana_coman:	mirror the thing, done	[18:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: this is so.	[18:28]
diana_coman:	for the "discouraging" (bwahaha) part, as you said it – MP, not TMSR.	[18:29]
jfw:	but if every man alone is doing his own cleanup, resources are fragmented. But yeah, I can see where the unification attempt didn't amount to much.	[18:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure, that's part of why and how it failed; so learn from it and don't do the same stupid ever, anywhere	[18:31]
diana_coman:	learn also from what was available but not used – while the whole thing is not still available, MP kept some door open for non-stupid, there's still his blog, there's still mpex last I looked	[18:32]
dorion:	diana_coman I think having my imagination bashed against your wall was quite helpful today. thank you.	[18:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: yeah, it's getting very late indeed; there's way too much confusion you are working in, no wonder you feel overwhelmed, btw.	[18:33]
dorion:	this also ties back to the discussion with trinque about skypies.	[18:33]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion to summarise: 1. tmsr failed 2. bitcoin has been anyway supported by MP, not by the not-effective-tmsr 3. to the extent that your decision was based on the characteristics of bitcoin, nothing changed there and if you don't want to live with it changing, you'll aim to increase gradually your leverage so you can help it doesn't	[18:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: that it does, indeed.	[18:36]
dorion:	diana_coman I'll come back with new questions tomorrow. as you said, it's all going to take time.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: all right.	[18:36]
jfw:	diana_coman: I was a bit embarassed to say it but I'm not quite seeing what "the same stupid" is here. That's a larger question of why tmsr failed, isn't it?	[18:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: link?	[18:37]
jfw:	of which one noted reason was lack of outreach to bring in external resources / new people	[18:37]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1022131	[18:37]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 18:31:09 diana_coman: jfw: sure, that's part of why and how it failed; so learn from it and don't do the same stupid ever, anywhere	[18:37]
diana_coman:	ah, you said right before that: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-16-Mar-2020#1022130	[18:38]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 18:30:26 jfw: but if every man alone is doing his own cleanup, resources are fragmented. But yeah, I can see where the unification attempt didn't amount to much.	[18:38]
diana_coman:	"same stupid " = "every man alone is doing his own" + "resources are fragmented"	[18:38]
jfw:	I had trb in mind as non-fragmentation though	[18:38]
diana_coman:	so: don't do your own of everything, don't fragment resources	[18:38]
diana_coman:	aim precisely for the opposite	[18:39]
jfw:	good then.	[18:39]
diana_coman:	and I'll add since I might as well: don't waste the available resources, don't fail to make use of them (as tmsr failed to make use of the MP oracle)	[18:39]
diana_coman:	basically the tmsr experiment makes for a great exhibits-of-fail, poster, huh.	[18:40]
dorion:	jfw we're also specifically aimed at outreach and will only survive if we're effective. we also have what you're created and are continuing to refine, but that has to be sustained by effective outreach.	[18:40]
dorion:	s/you're/you've/	[18:41]
diana_coman:	dorion: the outreach sounds good; the "what you've created" needs to remember for the future the part with "don't do your own of everything just so it's always of your own making"	[18:42]
diana_coman:	but it's possibly quite a lot for today anywya.	[18:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: are you still feeling totally down?	[18:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm sated for today and definitely feeling better than yest.	[18:43]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks, I think it's fine to be restated and does tie in to all the expressed interest on continuing with OS work.	[18:43]
jfw:	I did conclude it wasn't "nihilism" btw, more just bouncing around wondering what next	[18:43]
jfw:	I certainly look forward to continuing to fix computing if at all possible, while keen to keep it sustainable.	[18:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: cool; there's possibly better ahead; and from the statistics-you-don't-know, there's the good news that whatever may be said statistically of a population /group/anything, that does NOT directly say anything as mandatory about a given individual (ie don't kill yourself over statistical results)	[18:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: you should better look forward to grow jwrd, you know? what fix computing, that takes back seat to the burning grow-or-die, ok?	[18:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: yeah, gotta remember to have fun with that too. Thanks.	[18:47]
diana_coman:	cool, /me is out for the day.	[18:48]
whaack:	dorion: I am pretty sure I am going to cancel my trip actually. Looks like Panama just closed its borders.	[20:31]
jfw:	and CR too.	[21:15]
dorion:	whaack, yea you beat me to it.	[21:18]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/17/ejb-review-of-mar-9-mar-15-plan-for-mar-16-mar-22/ << Young Hands Club — ejb review of Mar 9-Mar 15 ; plan for Mar 16-Mar 22	[23:18]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-16#1021909 << the server entered into it because MP was going to have a clone of trilema.com on there (trilema.net). The logbot would be logging to that clone.	[23:19]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-16 19:14:47 diana_coman: lobbes: what was the initial plan with the logbot and that server, I hadn't followed too closely and now I'm rather unclear on it.	[23:19]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2020-03-11#1959422 << related thread re: how he was planning to sync the two	[23:19]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2020-03-11 mp_en_viaje: honestly i think what i'll go for will be : (using trilema.com for current trilema and trilema.net for pizdi's box), hve a mysql server run on both, have t.com update both rather than just its own, and have it read the day's logs at some point tomorrow. this way people can use t.net for any purpose except write a comment.	[23:19]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 15 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 7:49 pm

BingoBoingo:	going to sleep on the current draft for what's next. Dumping anything that smells of faith or belief in the Impossible Republic, what's left to move forward with as journalism… the name will have to start with an uncommon letter, but it probably won't be Q.	[03:34]
BingoBoingo:	hopes he has broken the developing news clearly enough to the followers in #agriculturalsupremacy that productive feedback rather than wailing and gnashing followshttp://logs.ossasepia.com/log/agriculturalsupremacy/2020-03-15#1001521	[03:50]
ossabot:	(agriculturalsupremacy) 2020-03-15 BingoBoingo: going to sleep on the draft he has, but warns http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021502	[03:50]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021276 – have you looked at what that "market" is worth, first of all? sure, it might look like anything and "escort ads pay" but looks are easy to make say anything.	[05:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 17:37:57 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: As I was out and about today, I pondered ways to bring Qntra into the economic loop. Every single one seems to better fit an idea, that I'd been bouncing around as a hobby, but as a refugee from an impossible Republic, the idea I though the hobby seems like the better business. I'm inclined to go forward with a new project doing Uruguay news in English. It's a smaller target, but it is a defensible one. Running escort ads	[05:25]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It's small and poor, I haven't yet taken a good measurement. The two major directions for growth I'm seeing as I sketch this out are 1. Expand into regional news and end up targeting the "International Living" real estate racket selling to wanna be retirees looking abroad 2. Add publishing in Spanish or pivot to Spanish and slug it out for the local title of "Paper of Record"	[11:40]
BingoBoingo:	The major short term upsides I'm seeing are forced social insertion, and building credibility and contacts outside the remains of the most impossible Republic.	[11:42]
BingoBoingo:	If I go with the fresh project as the priority I've also got to immediately unload the accumulated brainworms that have historically taken the form of "I know what Qntra is"	[11:45]
BingoBoingo:	If I unload everything that has the faintest whiff of sentiment or faith in weighing JournalismTBD versus Qntra, the history that I'd been weighing as an asset starts to look a lot like a burden.	[11:50]
BingoBoingo:	In terms of coverage, I'm having trouble thinking of anything I'd publish on Qntra that wouldn't be a fit for the International or Economy sections of a new project.	[12:17]
BingoBoingo:	Maybe I've been over correcting since the sketching out started yesterday afternoon, but I'm not at the moment seeing a case for Qntra over a blank slate that aren't tainted by toxic sentiment.	[12:35]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: the question is the very same whether qntra or not-qntra ie is that a viable and well thought-out business plan or not; a rebranding may be a lot in your head but in practical terms is just a sweep of names on top of a website so it does ~0 practically in and by itself.	[12:59]
diana_coman:	and tbh it all sounds to me dangerously in your head and mostly there at this stage; this being said I have no real idea re journalism and its market as such, as I already said several times.	[13:01]
BingoBoingo:	Thank you. At this stage I'm still in the process of taking it out of the head and putting it into writing and organizing what at this point is essentially a thought dump into something plan shaped.	[13:06]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: the point is to make sure your plan has solid foundation in actual facts that are relevant; building stuff in the real world based on what is there and not in the head, not sure how better to convey this.	[13:10]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I'll circle back to measure the post-holes and piers.	[13:12]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I didn't have too much for our standing meeting. Looked through my log dump this morning and strangely saw posts that were out of order. Gonna be spending time reordering the thing.	[16:05]
lobbes:	I did want to ask you if you would like this mp-wp bot for #ossasepia? It would be nice to see the thing live somewhere	[16:05]
whaack:	diana_coman: My time has been occupied being with a woman from Catalonia I met while my friends were visiting. I'm meeting with billymg for lunch in about an hour and then will write my review/plan for the week. I don't expect any feedback until I have accomplished work on TheFleet.	[16:09]
diana_coman:	lobbes: yes, I would rather have the logs as posts on the blog if the process is reliable, ok? we can work through it so it gets there but get there it must.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	lobbes: I think your logbot missed some lines, you might need to resync with mine perhaps	[16:19]
lobbes:	diana_coman: ack on the resync. I do think it is missing some indeed	[16:20]
lobbes:	and ack on the reliable process. I can definitely have a test server going for a while as well but yeah one thing at a time	[16:21]
diana_coman:	whaack: lolz, is it that time occupying that nothing else fits or what? anyways, set something concrete you'll deliver by next Sunday and do it.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	whaack: also, was your time occupied by the woman or did you occupy your time with her? depending on which of those you go for, it might make some difference re availability for anything else too.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	jfw, did you figure out why is MP saying you don't have a wallet service to offer, basically?	[16:25]
dorion:	has mircoblog incoming	[16:25]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020947 – I don't know how much different this is, but here's where I'm at :	[16:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 16:32:37 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020902 – I would add that operations should continue in a different way; not just the passive "things will be different"; and I'd be quite interested in hearing what each of you thinks on this "different how" , too	[16:25]
dorion:	My path of waking up started with realizing the us dollar and fiat currencies generally are fucked. First that meant run to precious metals and eventually lead to me move to an island to work for a guy talking about that at a bank he owned. Then I realized Bitcoin is better, dropped the bank and worked for a start up backed by fiat investors run by engineers that thought bitcoin was about helping	[16:25]
dorion:	the poor.	[16:25]
dorion:	Whatever, it got me off windows and onto african linux and showed me the command line and I used it to find qntra and the logs and trilema and tmsr. Since then, it has been my impression that without MP coming into the picture in 2011, Bitcoin would've failed a long time ago, death by pretending Bitcoin could be for the poor and unbanked and engineers that just want to open sores.	[16:26]
dorion:	MP is who motivated TRB. Would mod6 and ben_vulpes and asciilifeform have produced the vpatches without MP ? Slim to none chance to my eye since alf's pessimism on Bitcoin is what seems to have been how MP heard of him in the first place.	[16:26]
dorion:	TMSR and TRB was what caused jfw and I to talk a lot and eventually create what is now JWRD. He was hooked on the blocksize increase which I got him off of by motivating him to read the forum.	[16:26]
dorion:	I knew it was important, but I didn't know wtf was being said in terms of technology and the parts not related to technology had previously dissuaded him to read it seriously. It turns out the development approach taken here is aligned with his underlying preferences, but he likely wouldn't have known that without me.	[16:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: what I could think of was that it's not something I've done consistently (or at all) before, as a service like that; not sure that's it though.	[16:27]
dorion:	Our business is in large part based on the premise that people need to learn about security because Bitcoin is the best hedge against the fiat devaluations that've only increased this quarter and by will only accelerate moving forward as no, there will not be any return to "normalcy" of fiat interest rate.	[16:27]
dorion:	The USians look like they're about to print and cry for a wealth tax. Devaluation coupled with supply chain shock from the virus panic is a good recipe for stagflation not since in north america since the 1970s.	[16:27]
jfw:	diana_coman: sounded more like it's his conclusion based on what he's observed of me rather than anything to do with wallet itself	[16:27]
dorion:	However, if MP/TMSR/TRB is what was holding Bitcoin together, is Bitcoin actually better than gold ?	[16:27]
dorion:	Does MP's closure on TMSR signify he's done with Bitcoin ? Well, MPEx isn't closing and neither is S.MG. By my read, he's done with the charity of spending any more of his time to try and grow more MPs and turning to private life like Cincinnatus before him, which will still include	[16:28]
dorion:	Bitcoin.	[16:28]
dorion:	MP's closure on TMSR looks to me like a continuation from S.MPOE going private. He was very open to sharing and helping and poured 9 years of his life into doing it and as the evidence accumulated he has acted according to the	[16:28]
dorion:	evidence. Which tells him it's no longer worth his time.	[16:28]
dorion:	diana_coman is a mighty wall and the choices and chances before each and every one of us is what each and every one of makes of them.	[16:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 05:15:47 diana_coman: and in that, there is no "don't stand a chance" that matters really	[16:29]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 05:14:56 diana_coman: dorion jfw the situation is what it is; what you make of it though, going further is your choice entirely	[16:29]
dorion:	On the one hand, apart from diana_coman, everyone here failed to answer the call at varying levels. Perhaps that means we have no business with computers moving forward. But what if instead of the current situation, MP was no longer available to us on account of the	[16:29]
dorion:	worst case.	[16:29]
dorion:	Would TMSR be dead ? Or would someone have to step up and try to fill his shoes ? If there was in fact a republic, the later would have to be the case.	[16:29]
dorion:	Venice went through 120 Doges in 1100 years. I'm not going to say any of them sucked, because how could they, they were all better than the version of me that's typing to you now. But it's evident some were better than others, some generations were better than others, some had good luck, some had bad, that tmsr went through its ups and downs.	[16:30]
dorion:	I'm not going to pretend I can step in and replicate MP's performance today or tomorrow or a year or decade from now. Nevertheless, he honored me with a salutem and plenty of you have said you like what we've put together with JWRD and diana_coman is here for as long as we make effective use of her.	[16:30]
dorion:	I'm usian orphan set in front of the TV and more interested in sportsball than anything else for my first two decades who needs JWRD to cash flow sooner rather than later, not a rich prince polymath who made himself the central banker of btc. With that being said, if you all want me to, I'm willing to see if I can be good enough in leading things forward.	[16:30]
dorion:	It's true that I'll rely on his writings and it's going to be slower and more error prone than if he was sitting here.	[16:30]
dorion:	Maybe I'm completely off my rocker and full of hubris, but if that's the case I'm ready for sense to be slapped into me.	[16:30]
dorion:	fin.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: I'll give people time to read, digest, ask you questions and say their mind otherwise generally.	[16:32]
dorion:	diana_coman yeah, for sure. no rush at all.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021540 – this has nothing to do with it, no.	[16:35]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 16:27:36 jfw: diana_coman: sounded more like it's his conclusion based on what he's observed of me rather than anything to do with wallet itself	[16:35]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021536 – that "knew it was important" is key and surprisingly rare quality to be found otherwise, btw; that being said, it's not enough by itself.	[16:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 16:26:46 dorion: I knew it was important, but I didn't know wtf was being said in terms of technology and the parts not related to technology had previously dissuaded him to read it seriously. It turns out the development approach taken here is aligned with his underlying preferences, but he likely wouldn't have known that without me.	[16:51]
jfw:	dorion: minor point perhaps but I'm not sure what you mean "hooked on the blocksize increase"; I don't recall having a strong position / feelings on the subject, basically didn't see it as a big deal and trusted Gavin at the time. But yes, I don't think I'd have paid attention here without your urging.	[16:56]
dorion:	diana_coman, right. I hallucinted freedom and stayed in the shadows far too long.	[16:57]
jfw:	dorion: how well do you think you understood the non-technical parts?	[16:57]
jfw:	diana_coman: which has nothing to do with it – the "what he's observed", "wallet itself", both?	[16:58]
dorion:	jfw I agree it wasn't too strong and you quickly changed the position. I meant it as if I didn't help unhook you/get you off it, you may have well stayed there.	[16:59]
jfw:	dorion: right, and moreover listening to the same non-signals.	[17:00]
dorion:	jfw I'd have to review, but iirc the first point was about who Bitcoin's good for. I this came back to a turning point with euro pacific where at first I thought everyone I talked to should have an account. then later realized "offshore" banking isn't for everyone and I should focus on figuring out if who I'm talking to is the right fit.	[17:01]
dorion:	technical parts such as increasing blocksize reducing security by increasing the cost to run a node made sense pretty quick once I heard the case.	[17:03]
dorion:	I recall telling my best friend at the time, "I'd rather live in a world were I can't afford to send Bitcoin, but Bitcoin exists than where Bitcoin as it is doesn't exist because some misguided people wanted to cheapen it for me. At least in the former I can try strengthening myself and rise up."	[17:06]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021551 – while a name /label may stay conveniently (or even inconveniently at times) the same, the reality is that, to the extent that we are talking of leadership as opposed to bureaucracy, there's no full continuation of the "same thing" either possible or desirable really.	[17:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 16:29:46 dorion: Would TMSR be dead ? Or would someone have to step up and try to fill his shoes ? If there was in fact a republic, the later would have to be the case.	[17:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-09-26 14:38:37 diana_coman: ie "continuity" is to some extent an illusion: sure, it's named the same and it follows even perhaps similar principles but to the extent that it is what the King makes it, it can't be said to be "the same"	[17:06]
jfw:	dorion: most of MP's technical arguments are philosophical at the root. I guess what I'm questioning is to what extent you "got it except for the technical parts". If you did, why weren't you writing your own contravex rather than reading to try to help decipher trilema (as I did too)?	[17:09]
jfw:	you did see parts of it better than I based on your econ/finance background, as you say, yes.	[17:10]
jfw:	Not sure what I'm going to make of it yet but I take I do not expect either problem will change without the republic pretty seriously as a caution against trying to carry on a similar thing.	[17:12]
jfw:	The job here would not be "fill MP's shoes" but "do BETTER than he concluded he could".	[17:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: what would you say was "MP's job"?	[17:15]
jfw:	diana_coman: fixing people's heads	[17:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: not really, no.	[17:16]
jfw:	diana_coman: because it's focusing on the obstacles rather than the goal?	[17:17]
diana_coman:	in addition to my remark above re impossibility and undesirability of "same thing" when talking of anything that rests on an individual as a leader, I'll reiterate that a review of the failed TMSR exercise and what came and what didn't come out of it, is absolutely mandatory first step to go anywhere further for real; lacking that, all that can come out of attempts no …	[17:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 17:51:58 diana_coman: trinque: I can fully believe the aws and the likes indeed; there's also the significant part that republic failed to exist and so the whole context is changed and so far it hasn't even been reviewed as such; which is pre-requisite for any thinking of any related work, whether os or anything else anyways; I'll probably end up doing the review too since apparently nobody even considers it needed or something but that's besides the point.	[17:18]
diana_coman:	… matter how well intended will be in the best case a repeat of the same failure (probably worse because time never stops for anyone)	[17:18]
dorion:	jfw as far as the latency, for one it took a long time for me to let go of the non-agression principle, which itself took me a long way, to the point of telling my parents off, which I did at 24 in 2014. that had me disoriented, lets say, for a long while. another part was cowardice and fear of my past. the latter fell away as soon as I	[17:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-10-29 16:52:22 diana_coman: dorion: you see, that's the thing, when you say "my past" you forget that it includes not only coinapult and assorted similars but also all your own growth and following your own mind and finding your feet from what I gathered from those outlines	[17:18]
dorion:	actually talked about it in public, which revealed how stupid it was.	[17:18]
dorion:	diana_coman ack on the bureaucracy and need for review.	[17:22]
trinque:	heh, dorion did you really just propose yourself to be next doge of tmsr?	[17:23]
trinque:	really didn't read a word of what I said re: hubris, did you	[17:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, for starters fixing people's heads is something that only the people in question can actually do for themselves; it links back to my point yesterday re this younghands project itself – it's not I who fixes anything even to the extent that or when it gets fixed in the slightest around here; it's always the person in question – all I can do is to provide the …	[17:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 18:06:26 diana_coman: trinque: dunno if you are aware at all re this younghands project's history so far because possibly it gives already some practical examples	[17:24]
diana_coman:	… tools/wall indeed, that's all.	[17:24]
trinque:	believe me when I say it's this streak that keeps me from wanting to work with you.	[17:25]
dorion:	trinque I read it, and want it checked. I'm asking because it seems like the question to asked based on what I've read. I'll accept if I'm wrong.	[17:25]
trinque:	the wot has no "doge"	[17:25]
trinque:	the wot is built upon people's relationships, not institutions, and not titles.	[17:26]
trinque:	if you were anything like mp, you would not need anyone to tell you what you are.	[17:26]
dorion:	trinque, put me aside for a sec. how do you score your keepings up with your wot relations ?	[17:27]
trinque:	none of this matters.	[17:27]
trinque:	if you want a relationship with me, take that childish ego of yours and drown it in the nearest puddle	[17:27]
trinque:	if you don't, what does it matter	[17:27]
diana_coman:	heh, except if you do that jsut for a relationship, it's also fail-by-means-of-giving-a-damn	[17:28]
diana_coman:	basically when people start talking of own + others' egos, there's no win possible and it's moot from the start	[17:29]
dorion:	I want relationships with people who want to build relationships.	[17:29]
trinque:	you've got slogans, posturing, and other horse shit, far as I can tell.	[17:30]
dorion:	I don't think that can be done without first asking eachother questions and second have them answered honestly.	[17:30]
diana_coman:	trinque: can you give him some space so that he shows who and what he is rather than judging his words (inexperienced, granted) based on your own full history of what others did and how?	[17:30]
trinque:	sure, I am definitley judging him as "next posturing moron who wants to put on mp's hat"	[17:30]
trinque:	*definitely	[17:30]
jfw:	diana_coman: ah, of course. "Being a tool by which people might fix their heads", then?	[17:30]
diana_coman:	trinque: well, if you already judged then what space? and you judged what – words? ok.	[17:31]
trinque:	dorion: let me answer your question	[17:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: do you take MP for a humanist now?	[17:32]
trinque:	for years, kept up with them.	[17:32]
trinque:	and then intentionally trashed said relationships because I deemed them worthless to me.	[17:32]
trinque:	not only worthless, but harmful.	[17:33]
trinque:	as I percieve things, when I try to convey to you why they were harmful, you recoil with defense mechanisms.	[17:34]
trinque:	it'd be up to you to say why that is, or to explain how I'm wrong.	[17:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'm uncertain of the meaning of the term, but he didn't say "come work with me so I can break your necks" did he?	[17:34]
trinque:	when I say these relationships were worthless, I mean that their net effect on my life was <=0	[17:34]
diana_coman:	trinque: are you talking above of tmsr-wot-relationships? (it just occured now that …that might be what you are talking about, huh)	[17:34]
trinque:	meanwhile relationships in meatspace were >=0	[17:34]
trinque:	I am.	[17:35]
dorion:	trinque I can see it. why keeps you checking in if it's harming you ?	[17:35]
dorion:	what*	[17:35]
trinque:	it was not always doing so.	[17:35]
trinque:	for a time mod6 was not cataloging his daily shits on something called The Bitcoin Foundation, as an example.	[17:35]
diana_coman:	jfw: hmmm, now I wouldn't put words in anyone's mouth but I can at least say what was not said and that is "come work with me and I'll fix your heads", lol (unless by fix you mean perhaps as in the final fix)	[17:37]
dorion:	trinque why/how do you think the positive turned to a negative ?	[17:38]
jfw:	diana_coman: I now recall it more as "come work with me so you stand a chance at relevance in the future"	[17:38]
diana_coman:	jfw: he built and maintained a whole infrastructure (and that is more than ever met the eye, especially the naive eye)	[17:39]
trinque:	I think everyone spent what winter-fat they had, and started dipping into muscle, at some point.	[17:39]
trinque:	if you don't understand the metaphor, ask	[17:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: well yes, that is part of it.	[17:39]
diana_coman:	jfw: he built it for people able to make use of it; there's plenty said re "place to defect to" for instance, surely you met that before.	[17:40]
dorion:	trinque http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-05-17#1914461 ?	[17:40]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-05-17 trinque: republic is scant of profit centers	[17:40]
trinque:	yes.	[17:40]
jfw:	diana_coman: yes I met it	[17:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: in short, the conclusion after all those years is simply that such people do not exist anymore.	[17:41]
dorion:	why don't you think more business was developed within the republic. e.g. what did you try to monetize and grow deedbot wallet ?	[17:41]
trinque:	I don't think a "deedbot wallet" is monetizable.	[17:41]
dorion:	why not ?	[17:42]
trinque:	because there are not enough people on earth who have the problem it solves.	[17:42]
dorion:	what problem does it solve ?	[17:43]
diana_coman:	so on one hand that fact is not going away tomorrow; and on the other hand, that infrastructure is also not a matter of "just set to rebuild it".	[17:43]
dorion:	is the number problem fixable by quality ?	[17:43]
trinque:	arguably it didn't solve a problem, but rather patched around the cumbersomeness of transacting in bitcoin given the shitty state of trb	[17:45]
trinque:	it smeared over a problem	[17:45]
diana_coman:	trinque: do you recall the conversation with MP on the wallet-as-a-business? I can't seem to be able to find now the log-line.	[17:46]
dorion:	diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-21#1947266 ?	[17:47]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-10-21 mp_en_viaje: your self-interest one is the perfecting of in-channel payments, such that deedbot can be used not merely as the processor of republican record, but also as the everyday support of commerce.	[17:47]
trinque:	what everyday commerce was it?	[17:48]
trinque:	payment processors can hope to charge about 1-3\%	[17:50]
trinque:	anyhow, this is backwards.	[17:52]
trinque:	first you have to identify who the clients will be	[17:52]
trinque:	you don't just haul off and build something, and hope	[17:52]
diana_coman:	dorion: that is one of them but not the one I had in mind; and it was precisely re "there's no market" "you MAKE the market" ; trinque , do you recall it?	[17:52]
diana_coman:	trinque: indeed, you don't just hope, no.	[17:53]
dorion:	trinque are you saying it you made a mistake by building it in the first place ? that you should've talked to more outsiders and got their buy in first ?	[17:55]
trinque:	yes indeed. expending your time is still expense.	[17:56]
diana_coman:	the point re talked to more outsiders is a good one and I think it was repeated to death in #t anyway; pretty much one of the huge fails of the dead-tmsr was exactly the lack of outreach.	[18:00]
dorion:	trinque, when did the deedbot wallet go into production ?	[18:01]
trinque:	it must've been 2-3 years ago by now	[18:05]
diana_coman:	to try and summarise so that we can perhaps move on for now:	[18:06]
diana_coman:	the way I see it, dorion said his words and so now he'll have to go and do what backs them up (or not); then and only then, there will be anything to talk about anyway.	[18:08]
diana_coman:	and I'll add again that no, I don't think there's any tmsr moving further	[18:08]
diana_coman:	tmsr is dead and that's it; what may be moving further will be -if anything -something else.	[18:08]
dorion:	thanks diana_coman	[18:09]
diana_coman:	the way I see it, trinque made his point clear that a. he is allergic to any not-plain words b. he doesn't consider MP was right re making markets rather than using existing markets c. so far he doesn't like what he hears from dorion	[18:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: is the above wrong ?	[18:10]
trinque:	correct on all.	[18:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: all right; would you care to continue yesterday's discussion and get it to some conclusion?	[18:13]
trinque:	sure, give me five minutes, compiling a shopping list.	[18:14]
diana_coman:	sure	[18:14]
dorion:	takes a break for a while, but will be back later to read the continuation of the diana_coman / trinque thread and any other comments/questions about what I wrote.	[18:16]
trinque:	diana_coman: ok, I'd be interested in your thoughts re: the tooldom of a computer	[18:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: I've been actually re-reading the convo yesterday and there was for starters this bit that kept pinging at me – for one thing I think the "more efficient" is too narrowly taken there	[18:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 18:33:36 trinque: for all I know, there's a much smarter hammer than the hand tool that's more complex but also more efficient, i.e. less lossy of energy input to energy output	[18:25]
trinque:	yeah, I left out the energy required to build the thing.	[18:26]
trinque:	so there'd be a tradeoff between the efficiency of use of the hammer, vs expense of producing it	[18:26]
diana_coman:	trinque: that is there too but it's not what I mean; the point is "efficiency at use time" does not involve only the movement energy; basically if the tool is complex beyond a point or rather on a certain dimension/in a certain way, then it also requires as input complexity and that should be part of the equation	[18:27]
diana_coman:	pretty much the reason why I won't ever bother banging on a plain nail with the most efficient hammer ever, despite it being most efficient – it ends up asking of me more than the job is worth.	[18:28]
trinque:	absolutely.	[18:29]
trinque:	operating cost of the tool is a limiting factor.	[18:29]
trinque:	recalling my cuntoo project, the operating cost was quite high.	[18:30]
diana_coman:	yes, but the operating cost of the tool includes some less than visible/more difficult to measure costs, with some improvements of the tool	[18:30]
trinque:	endless surface area on gentoo, a million knobs that one has to twiddle just so	[18:30]
diana_coman:	yes, in a word what happens there as far as I can tell is that the tool ends up packing both manufacturing complexity (ie the factory and full industrial chain) AND operational complexity that is often worse and esp so when it's the sort of implicit knowledge rather than explicit.	[18:31]
trinque:	I think we're both satisfied that there are costs associated with tool-production and tool-use, both of which escalate with complexity, and not necessarily linearly, eh?	[18:32]
diana_coman:	"you need 10 years to master this hammer and then you'll be 1000 times more productive with it; until then, you'll hammer your fingers with it ~every 10th blow" sort of thing	[18:32]
trinque:	indeed	[18:32]
diana_coman:	all right, let's leave it at that; re capacity for language – what do you mean there by capacity?	[18:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 18:57:04 trinque: to my mind, a computer is a tool that astonishingly multiplies our capacity for language	[18:33]
diana_coman:	initially I took it ~effectiveness of language use but on re-read I don't quite know if it fits.	[18:34]
trinque:	yep, I didn't mean effectively, just that it amplifies.	[18:35]
trinque:	a tool could perhaps build in some of the experience of those that produced it, and thereby make the user more effective without them having to have had the same level of expertise.	[18:35]
trinque:	whether or not we stick on the point of a computer being a tool, or some kind of meta-tool generalization, it would appear to fit both of the above cases.	[18:35]
diana_coman:	well, I kept thinking of what I could even find as "use of computer" and the closest I could come would be indeed a sort of "amplifier and discretizer"	[18:35]
trinque:	that complexity ramps cost of production and of use.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	and I think the second part is quite important too	[18:36]
trinque:	yeah, I had an old boss who was heavy into databases and RDF.	[18:37]
trinque:	he emphasized that they were for "classification and distinction"	[18:37]
trinque:	at any rate, whether the computer is a tool, or some kind of metamachine that configures itself into a variety of tools, interesting but a side point.	[18:38]
diana_coman:	heh, I didn't even mean that; I meant that it breaks continuity of ~any domain that it touches and (because of the power of amplification) it's a break that can't be reversed	[18:38]
trinque:	could I get an example?	[18:38]
diana_coman:	is thinking, trying to extract something concrete	[18:39]
diana_coman:	I'm still not happy with it but in the interest of time: look at computer graphics since I reviewed it to barf-level recently; there isn't a continuous field of ~everything from maths-driven to hand-drawn	[18:41]
diana_coman:	there are clearly distinct categories instead with huge gaps in between them	[18:41]
diana_coman:	(and some pretty much missing entirely/lost on the way because of additional discretization of people too, similarly – there isn't anymore the case that you get in a group an wide range of approaches covering a whole interval and a meaningful average; what you get instead is a few points and so no possible average)	[18:42]
diana_coman:	so re graphics, you either get "realistic rendering" on huge resources, meant for films/animations ie rendered once in huge detail and then screened whatever times; or you get the rasterized "here's the colour of every pixel because it's cheap"	[18:43]
trinque:	has a few glimmers of the point, just thinking	[18:43]
diana_coman:	yeah, I'm not happy with its clarity yet, it's still too fresh in my head to fully come together.	[18:44]
trinque:	going to have to ponder this part a while longer, but I think we can get back to something directly relevant to the OS thread from here, actually.	[18:47]
diana_coman:	trinque: at any rate, I agree that tool/set-of-tools distinction is not needed here as such.	[18:47]
diana_coman:	trinque: sure, I'm listening.	[18:47]
trinque:	something in what made you hesitate about calling a computer a tool is what makes computers more economically dangerous than other… products of industry	[18:48]
trinque:	the complexities we discussed earlier explode within computers, in a way that they do not explode in the hammers we discussed.	[18:48]
trinque:	turing completeness means they can model literally as much complexity as you've got time for	[18:49]
trinque:	they're like black-holes for work.	[18:49]
trinque:	ahahah yeah, this is what makes them the worst possible machines!	[18:49]
diana_coman:	well yes, why I'm more inclined to view them as the anti-tool than tool.	[18:50]
trinque:	I see it.	[18:50]
trinque:	but this is great, because they're still a tool, in that they're used as tools to translate input into magnified output, and they're the worst possible tools because they'll happily eat as much work as you can throw at them, if you aren't careful.	[18:50]
trinque:	or at least I'll claim they're still a tool, even if they're bad ones.	[18:51]
trinque:	I think this black hole point brings me back to the economic discussion.	[18:51]
diana_coman:	my point re amplifiers is that they are indiscriminate amplifiers if you will – ie they will amplify not only w	[18:51]
diana_coman:	"what you want" but quite literally "what you did"	[18:52]
trinque:	this is precisely what I mean by black-hole-for-work	[18:52]
diana_coman:	do the stupid, they'll amplify that too.	[18:52]
trinque:	I mean work in the physics sense as well as the common sense.	[18:52]
diana_coman:	ah, I see.	[18:52]
trinque:	the stupid may very well mean the thing never comes back with output, of course.	[18:52]
trinque:	recall what I said on my blog re: the feeling of an expanse opening to swallow one	[18:53]
diana_coman:	sure, not a difference as such from machine's point of view anyway	[18:53]
trinque:	yep	[18:53]
trinque:	k, so we've got this monstrous lovecraftian horror of a machine.	[18:53]
diana_coman:	I don't know re expanse opening up to swallow anyone – that's why I like those shutdown buttons to work :P	[18:54]
trinque:	I'm a visual thinker to the point of quasi-hallucination	[18:54]
trinque:	so I lean on imagery a lot	[18:54]
diana_coman:	eh, don't use non-plain words, or I'll call trinque to tell you off for hubris, ok?	[18:54]
trinque:	d'oh	[18:54]
trinque:	*k, so we've got this machine that'll happily eat as much work as you can throw at it, and potentially give you zilch back, depending entirely on you.	[18:55]
diana_coman:	imagery is perfectly fine though, don't worry.	[18:55]
diana_coman:	yes.	[18:56]
trinque:	this seems a very dangerous place to have an enterprise.	[18:56]
trinque:	plenty of interesting enterprises to be had in dangerous places, but we should consider it as such.	[18:56]
diana_coman:	trinque: I thought that's pretty much the only sort of place where one can ever have enterprises.	[18:57]
trinque:	there are degrees.	[18:57]
diana_coman:	as in everything, sure.	[18:57]
trinque:	I'd claim this one ranks up there with "launching multistage rockets"	[18:57]
trinque:	the curious thing is that we have pieces of multistage rocket which we can copy for free.	[18:58]
diana_coman:	ahaha, that "for free" reminds me that crystalspace we "copied for free", yes?	[18:58]
trinque:	exactly right	[18:58]
trinque:	free to the extent that these found objects do exactly what we'd hoped.	[19:00]
trinque:	which is to say that our predecessors wanted exactly what we want	[19:00]
diana_coman:	it's not exactly out of nowhere I said already that premade computer "tools" are more of a drain than a gain, considered plainly as a category.	[19:00]
trinque:	or wanted compatible things	[19:00]
trinque:	given our violent disagreement with our predecessors, this seems unlikely.	[19:01]
diana_coman:	trinque: it's not free even then; it's less costly, or perhaps in the best case it turns out overall in the green but the chances are slim	[19:01]
diana_coman:	trinque: mhm, yes and no; ie the violent disagreement is with most recent predecessors (or perhaps several layers but NOT all the way to the root, no)	[19:02]
trinque:	we could certainly draw a pragmatic line, but we'd still have to evaluate all the found items as to which side of the line they're on.	[19:02]
diana_coman:	and banging on still re eulora (because well, that's what I work on indeed), I have recently unearthed something definitely useful	[19:03]
ossabot:	(eulora) 2020-03-11 diana_coman: having looked at a mountain of ~everything (and most of it not at all appealing), in the end it seems I have unearthed what I'd call just about the simplest thing possible (some ~1990 vintage if I got that straight, possibly earlier) and I have just tested this morning a polygonization of an implicit surface	[19:03]
diana_coman:	and the cost there came mostly from filtering the mountain of shit that obscured and burried it, not from the thing itself.	[19:03]
trinque:	if cs was 10 times larger, would it have been 10 times harder to find the useful item inside?	[19:05]
trinque:	more? less?	[19:05]
diana_coman:	trinque: the evaluation's cost can be reduced if one remembers that software is not apolitical pretty much – the approaches/cockroaches embedded as a result are way easier to spot than technical issues as such.	[19:05]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, this was not from inside crystalspace, no	[19:06]
trinque:	ah, so this is a much simpler item that might keep you from having to use some more complex thing from cs?	[19:06]
trinque:	I lack context, will read the linked thread shortly	[19:06]
diana_coman:	this was from the computer graphics domain at large ie I read research papers and looked at tools and everything else until I got to the point I can almost tell the year a paper/work was produced on just from a quick scan	[19:06]
trinque:	right, so does this replace some hairier, nastier thing you were going to do instead?	[19:07]
diana_coman:	trinque: cs lacked a crucial link in the chain that we need for what we want to do	[19:07]
diana_coman:	there was no alternative there than "find something or think of something"	[19:07]
diana_coman:	because it's also a mathematical problem on top of everything else, I went first for "make sure there isn't already some solution that actually works"	[19:07]
diana_coman:	theoretically there are plenty; in practice, that plenty is more akin to "plenty of ~same thing that doesn't work unless you mean by work some very narrow case and shit"	[19:08]
diana_coman:	finally, in a paper from back in 1990 or thereabouts, I found something which both does the sort of thing I want and actually works ie it's made to work, not to "work"	[19:09]
trinque:	you know, if dorion had said to me "my init is simpler" without also saying "I want this shell because we made it" I'd have stopped right there, and nodded vigorously.	[19:09]
trinque:	because that's exactly how I want to reason about this.	[19:09]
trinque:	or not made, found already and put in our thing, w/e	[19:09]
diana_coman:	trinque: honestly, you are both piling there at one another your own baggages that come head to head and neither of them helps	[19:09]
diana_coman:	trinque: yes, but I wouldn't have been able to even articulate that indeed that was what you were looking for as such, before you just said it above	[19:10]
trinque:	it was in what I've already written	[19:10]
diana_coman:	I'll believe that I just missed it among the rest then.	[19:11]
trinque:	and I hope this thread serves as an example of a perfectly rational conversation.	[19:11]
trinque:	but at any rate, production of an OS is explosively expensive.	[19:11]
trinque:	and unpredictably	[19:12]
trinque:	anyone undertaking it needs to have a credible strategy for minimizing the costs.	[19:12]
trinque:	better stated, for having budget for the costs.	[19:13]
diana_coman:	well, re perfectly rational, I can only hope that at some point you two stop triggering one another's antibodies or something; but anyways, this is aside the conversation at hand.	[19:14]
diana_coman:	trinque: from the conversation above, it seems that production of ~any software is explosively expensive by its very nature	[19:15]
trinque:	certainly	[19:15]
trinque:	to take an extreme case, microsoft has well enough resources to extrude a monstrously complex pile.	[19:16]
diana_coman:	an OS might be more obviously so perhaps because possibly even the lowest cost is already quite big in itself but other than that, the dangers are the same.	[19:16]
trinque:	on the other end, that TempleOS guy built one himself, with only his own time, and his mother's cooking	[19:16]
trinque:	yep, CS is probably bigger than the kernel, for example, right?	[19:17]
diana_coman:	cs + ps surely; I don't recall the numbers by heart re cs.	[19:17]
trinque:	in either case on the same order	[19:17]
diana_coman:	(and I actually cut it away from server and on the client it wasn't supposed to be on my back)	[19:18]
diana_coman:	myeah	[19:18]
trinque:	do you recall MP's "how to get rich" article?	[19:18]
diana_coman:	trinque: I think re dangers and costs we are quite clear and for that matter experience-informed enough; do realise though that dorion doesn't have that experience (nor the same temperament for that matter, heh)	[19:19]
trinque:	http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-live-to-be-rich/	[19:19]
diana_coman:	ah, I recall that now; (a different one came to mind earlier on your prompt)	[19:20]
trinque:	sure, for all I know he thought he was doing the dutiful thing above.	[19:20]
trinque:	I'll work on the temper, am working on, etc	[19:20]
trinque:	but the advice there on budgeting applies here.	[19:20]
diana_coman:	trinque: there are a few questions I asked you and never got an answer on; can I get an answer of some sort – even if it's "that's an idiotic thing to ask because x"?	[19:21]
trinque:	if you're net-negative, declare bankruptcy now, which means dispose of your debts.	[19:21]
trinque:	sure, go ahead.	[19:21]
diana_coman:	the more baffling was re the OS series that you stopped abruptly ; here's part 1 and part 2 of the same	[19:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:56:44 diana_coman: … description], I was expecting a discussion of how V enters the picture, followed by a summary and a spec. It's clear that something's not clearly expressed or at least not clearly enough for me – why does a discussion of how V enters the picture require an agreement of position re only-busybox-or-not? and furthermore, why would a discussion of V-in-OS depend on such a choice?	[19:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 17:52:48 diana_coman: trinque: what I don't understand is why wouldn't you finish that series since you started it and since you know what you want to say anyway? I don't see it chained to some choice (which I don't even think it's clear or possible to clarify right now)	[19:23]
diana_coman:	I still don't see a. why does discussion of V-in-OS stall on busybox-or-not or even anything else b. why not finish the series if you worked on it anyway	[19:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: and what do/did you make of MP's "make the market" (that was my q in here)	[19:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 17:52:58 diana_coman: dorion: that is one of them but not the one I had in mind; and it was precisely re "there's no market" "you MAKE the market" ; trinque , do you recall it?	[19:26]
diana_coman:	finally found at least part of the discussion thread though I recall it was more plainly put somewhere, hm.	[19:29]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-10-18 diana_coman: trinque: but if you make a business out of it then part and parcel is precisely bringing people in to use it ie create the market, no?	[19:29]
trinque:	must be obvious that I've been considering whether to leave tmsr for a long time.	[19:29]
trinque:	*had been, moot now.	[19:29]
trinque:	I stole some time from more important things to work on that OS series.	[19:29]
diana_coman:	trinque: the trouble with "obvious" is that it depends on people's assumptions; and I'd much rather not make more assumptions than I absolutely must – they are quite an expensive (and explosively expensive too, quite like OS work!) thing.	[19:30]
trinque:	it'd seem more worthwhile if there appeared to be hope of making it work.	[19:30]
trinque:	sure, totally reasonable.	[19:30]
trinque:	in regards to "make the market", if he'd said what that looked like, I would've gone after it.	[19:31]
trinque:	obviously I did not know.	[19:31]
trinque:	but it does smack of the kind of condescending shit I heard every time I asked stan for a picture of his bookcase	[19:31]
diana_coman:	trinque: heh, that's the second "obvious"…	[19:31]
trinque:	second d'oh too then!	[19:31]
diana_coman:	hm, do you equal mp's words with stan's?	[19:32]
trinque:	in that case, yes.	[19:32]
trinque:	or maybe he was also telling me it was "obvious"	[19:32]
trinque:	at any rate I don't think stan or mp owe me anything.	[19:32]
diana_coman:	that's pretty much it indeed; his obvious and your obvious.	[19:32]
trinque:	but it doesn't resolve the practicability for me that somebody else knows.	[19:33]
trinque:	and there, that's my actual reaction to the end of the republic	[19:33]
trinque:	and I can 100\% see how now I turn to dorion and piss upon him in the same manner.	[19:33]
diana_coman:	trinque: re the OS series, do I take it then that the work remaining for the 1/2 last parts is in fact not yet done and so ofc, whether they get written or not depends on whether you see a concrete use to spending that time or not?	[19:33]
trinque:	yeah, I'm not holding them like an asshole. they don't exist, except as various notes	[19:34]
diana_coman:	trinque: yes on all the above indeed; all right, from my pov, I think those conversations have done a lot to clarify where things are; fwiw I do not intend to either pies in the sky or daydreaming; I do however allow for people's inexperience and learning because I don't see what other option there is anyway, tbh.	[19:36]
diana_coman:	trinque: I can't say there's anything concrete/precise I can promise at this point re future developments; I'd ask you though to speak up at any time and doubly so if there's something that makes you think you're wasting your time here – because then either it turns out it is indeed that so you know quicker and waste less time or it turns out it's not that and so either way, it's a win.	[19:38]
trinque:	happy to keep these conversations going.	[19:39]
diana_coman:	cool; I'll be around as usual from 7pm UTC and hopefully once the dust settles, there can be some clearheaded looking around, taking stock and deciding on concrete next step forward.	[19:40]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, can I have deedbot in there, indeed?	[19:41]
diana_coman:	in here*	[19:41]
diana_coman:	will go and get some sleep, will be back tomorrow.	[19:42]
trinque:	yep, I am working on this, which is why I joined several folks' channels	[19:42]
trinque:	need to just unwind a few more places where it's assumed there's only one chan	[19:43]
trinque:	goodnight	[19:44]
jfw:	I observe that the 15th has passed, at least by some yardsticks, and a transactions either from mp's 1334rdsG6UuzEXUep6wU3kj87U2U8FPA4M or to mike_c's 14C8P7sdcahZsV3oq1zmF9dj19ctv51ZNS (I don't know mod6's or other payees' addresses) exists about as much as my own weekly review.	[21:33]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-13 mp_en_viaje: what i'll do is, come the 15th ima sweep the address into one of the web wallets and pay the fellows from there (at their own risk).	[21:33]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-07 mp_en_viaje: jfw, my intention is to use https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/address/1334rdsG6UuzEXUep6wU3kj87U2U8FPA4M/ through your http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/bitcoin-transactions-and-their-signing-1/?b=nears&e=completion#select to pay off http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958780 an' http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958773 ; do you want to schedule a time this coming week to work together on it, make the p	[21:33]
jfw:	diana_coman: I am no closer than this morning to enlightenment on – nevermind why he says it – how it could be that web wallets physically exist while the thing I offered does not.	[21:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 16:25:02 diana_coman: jfw, did you figure out why is MP saying you don't have a wallet service to offer, basically?	[21:42]
jfw:	Why or how would you say?	[21:42]
jfw:	and ftr, I wouldn't have expected him to trust a wot-newbie with 3 figures BTC, because of http://trilema.com/2016/the-mathematics-of-scamming/ at the very least; but I swept expectations aside once usg.mozooglechain was brought into it.	[21:48]
whaack:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-15-Mar-2020#1021525 lol, I will forgoe the detailed time sheet for the week. I think I choose to occupy my time with her, but I know I may have walked into her web. She doesn't seem like a dependopotamus, at the very least she has her own	[22:57]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-15 16:21:30 diana_coman: whaack: lolz, is it that time occupying that nothing else fits or what? anyways, set something concrete you'll deliver by next Sunday and do it.	[22:57]
whaack:	place, a job, and a shotgun.	[22:57]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 14 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 7:39 pm

dorion:	and trb, etc.	[00:00]
trinque:	if you haven't even a pot in which to cook, when someone asks you for soup, what do you do?	[00:03]
dorion:	"No soup for you!" ; but apart from a couple packages in addition to busybox, Gales does the busy-as-entire-userspace self-hosting. so there's the pot. did you try heating it up yet ?	[00:06]
trinque:	listen, if you already have this figured out, hop to it.	[00:07]
trinque:	but you might question why you're so quick to evade my point	[00:07]
trinque:	no soup for you is how all these derps never got a business off the ground	[00:07]
trinque:	sure, soup. how	[00:07]
trinque:	busybox may be dead wrong. how would we determine that?	[00:08]
dorion:	the order for soup was the tmsr os clients article in my mind, the how is what we were trying to map out.	[00:09]
trinque:	do you recall my definition of ownership?	[00:10]
dorion:	to make it the thing an extension of yourself.	[00:11]
dorion:	s/it//	[00:12]
trinque:	yeah, and complexity, the interweavedness of the thing, which thwarts ownership, man being limited.	[00:13]
trinque:	one could suppose that as you ramp complexity, you ramp the cost of ownership	[00:14]
trinque:	more likely, your ownership tapers as complexity ramps	[00:14]
trinque:	my experience with the cuntoo project was that every time I got the motherfucker to build, the upstream packages would literally shift out from under me, something would break, etc	[00:15]
trinque:	I finally lassoed the entire wad of dependencies, some 900mb of them, made a build script for the whole shitwad.	[00:15]
dorion:	sure, the cost goes up with complexity and you own it less, but if you're smart about which complexity and for whom, the value of the complexity can offset the cost.	[00:16]
trinque:	and folks rightly balked at "wtf even is this, and you're claiming you have control of it?!"	[00:16]
trinque:	to which I what, "yes, if you don't fucking breathe!"	[00:16]
trinque:	"value of complexity offsets the cost" << how	[00:16]
trinque:	you're spending future money today to wrangle the complexity like a good american?	[00:17]
dorion:	by having a more marketable thing.	[00:17]
trinque:	http://trinque.org/2019/12/24/ruin/ << this was the point of this btw	[00:18]
trinque:	wrote that while I was recovering from a bar fight concussion	[00:18]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021080 – I'd say the two possible approaches are studying the code and practice/testing	[00:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 00:08:53 trinque: busybox may be dead wrong. how would we determine that?	[00:19]
trinque:	dorion: how does "having a more marketable thing" tomorrow help your leverage today?	[00:19]
jfw:	There are also the kinds of complexity that improve ownership capacity by simplifying how much you have to think about, detecting errors and such. High-level programming languages, avionics with multi-vendor redundant processing, … not putting gcc in this category though.	[00:23]
trinque:	knowing the label of something is not equivalent to knowing the thing.	[00:24]
trinque:	yes, I can point and say "gcc" too. neither of us understand the thing, nor could carry it on our own.	[00:24]
dorion:	trinque get people to buy into owning the various elements in the set. evaluate the people and their abilities/character/etc. use the wot as your leverage to do what you need to do with the machine.	[00:27]
trinque:	yes, I've been apprised of the wot and how it works for some time.	[00:28]
trinque:	that's not an answer to what I'm posing.	[00:28]
trinque:	your mind is stuck in an imagined tomorrow.	[00:28]
trinque:	and convinced that imagining the tomorrow has something to do with making it appear.	[00:28]
trinque:	or that's how it sounds out here.	[00:28]
trinque:	dorion: hold on, do you mean "buy into owning" as in they volunteer for your open source project or something?	[00:31]
trinque:	or in whichever other form, "I don't have what to pay for this" so we'll spread the problem?	[00:32]
dorion:	trinque, perhaps clarify what you're posing so I can try to answer it ?	[00:32]
trinque:	can I take what you're saying as "an OS is complex, so I need to get people to help me" ?	[00:33]
trinque:	completely reasonable; it is, you do.	[00:34]
dorion:	you can call it stuck if you want ; I'd like to think of it as improving what's at hand each day to realize the imagined future. perhaps I'm wrong.	[00:34]
trinque:	dang it, the moment I'm asking you one thing, you deign to answer the other.	[00:35]
trinque:	lol	[00:35]
trinque:	you let me know when you've popped stack all the way	[00:35]
trinque:	here's the thing. the human mind is full of its own enemies.	[00:36]
trinque:	whatever it's constructed as "itself", it will defend automatically	[00:37]
trinque:	it's what the damn thing is for, but it malfunctions when the map of self is taken as fundamental, rather than a map.	[00:38]
trinque:	if you need the image of the great thing you're going to do in order to motivate you, yes, you will defend the activity of sky-pie	[00:39]
trinque:	surely we can carry this at a lower interval than 10min/msg	[00:45]
trinque:	ah, seems like freenode is shitting itself.	[00:48]
jfw:	sorry bout that trinque, dorion noted to me he was affected too. Possible also that we're being slow though.	[00:48]
jfw:	trinque: maybe we reschedule – is this a good time of day for you?	[00:51]
trinque:	I'm usually around in the evening us/central	[00:52]
dorion:	trinque, back now.	[00:53]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021110 – I was going for : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-25#1953494	[00:53]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 00:31:29 trinque: dorion: hold on, do you mean "buy into owning" as in they volunteer for your open source project or something?	[00:53]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-11-25 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-25#1953458 << nothing new or different, same old thing management always was. write a plan, get people to ~commit~ to parts, chase the commitments, reschedule as needed and so on.	[00:53]
trinque:	where's the money in any of that	[00:53]
trinque:	yes those things, of course. there's detail missing, probably because it was so obvious to him.	[00:54]
trinque:	"not going to tell the derp to breathe either"	[00:55]
dorion:	I didn't manage a clear concept of direct monetization. only indirectly through jwrd at present.	[00:56]
jfw:	I see MP's approach to filling in the details as having you try something then pointing out where you fail. How else to know which details are missing?	[00:57]
dorion:	trinque, what do you have in mind for monetization of the simpler approach you've described ? who/what are you building it for ?	[00:58]
trinque:	dorion: you realize you're talking about a massive industrial product, an OS, yeah?	[00:58]
trinque:	nevermind what my plans are; if I were to say "I have none" this doesn't make having none fine.	[00:58]
dorion:	trinque, yeah.	[00:58]
trinque:	you're going to build this massive industrial product with the hobby hours folks have when they're doing something else to feed themselves?	[00:59]
trinque:	*when they're not	[00:59]
jfw:	the approach is more colonizing / terraforming than building from scratch (though perhaps unclear how much that helps)	[01:01]
trinque:	there are more security holes in old php versions than you have dicks to plug.	[01:02]
trinque:	now what of terraforming, and other cute metaphors	[01:02]
dorion:	trinque, I'll admit that's management failure. I could've ask s.mg or the bitcoin foundation since they were to directly benefit. I didn't.	[01:05]
dorion:	in part that was to see what could be done with the people who were contributing in their hobby hours, because that wasn't unsubstantial.	[01:06]
dorion:	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-05#1954389 – was also brought up.	[01:09]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-12-05 dorion_road: It occurred to me this morning, this tmsr-os project could be utilized medium to long term in both lifetime support consultancy and the hottest business idea in btc (code review and code insurance) ventures.	[01:09]
jfw:	this is where I have to say my favored approach was avoiding php and its ilk like the plague, but since I can't reinvent mp-wp in a reasonable timeframe, I gave in. I don't see that as meaning all machines must have php – though there was talk of the one big vtree approach	[01:09]
trinque:	dorion: there, he already said, and said, and said.	[01:10]
trinque:	so yes, make someone pay.	[01:11]
trinque:	then you'll be able to pay.	[01:11]
trinque:	and paying is all there is.	[01:11]
trinque:	jfw: doesn't mean it has to build and install	[01:12]
trinque:	I don't go in there and run "make", who cares?	[01:12]
trinque:	but I don't know what business php or crystalspace has when discussing the OS	[01:13]
jfw:	the storage isn't free especially once "php" turns out to mean 500 other can't-live-without packages, but yes there's at least that.	[01:13]
trinque:	you make an OS that isn't shitty, then at the next level of ontology things either build upon that, are fixed, or are discarded	[01:14]
trinque:	you want to bend your OS to "must run crystalspace" and you can just stay right where we already are.	[01:14]
trinque:	I mean, you by definition will.	[01:14]
trinque:	jfw: damn straight, it'll spider out into hell	[01:14]
jfw:	trinque: I gotta run shortly, but one thing that occured to me: re http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021091 , do you take it as the 900mb that was the main part of the critique, or more a lack of clear or complete process documentation or testing (much like the wall I hit yesterday with MP)? Granted such a standard might be ~impossible when working with gentoo.	[01:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 00:16:11 trinque: and folks rightly balked at "wtf even is this, and you're claiming you have control of it?!"	[01:24]
dorion:	trinque, thanks for engaging. I'ma give this a couple more reads over the next days and come back with any questions. right now I must call it though.	[01:24]
trinque:	I'm winding down myself.	[01:25]
trinque:	jfw: I gathered together a pile of shit, called it mine, and tried to feed it to people	[01:25]
trinque:	they rightly balked.	[01:25]
trinque:	I'm proposing you don't do the same thing	[01:25]
trinque:	happy to pick this up again later.	[01:26]
jfw:	aite, take care.	[01:26]
trinque:	later y'all	[01:26]
dorion:	diana_coman I didn't budget tonight's conversation in my plan for today. I have an appointment at 13:30 utc tomorrow and will have my plan for the week ahead done before 19:00 utc.	[01:38]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021050 – trinque, what are you working on? after all this time I still don't have any clear idea at all, really.	[06:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 23:18:42 trinque: my time is limited, and I'm mostly allocated to getting my sad arse out of the gravity well I was born in.	[06:27]
diana_coman:	dorion: works.	[06:29]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: the more important point to take home re Qntra's current lack of economic activity and market value is that you have to aim specifically and work so that the future qntra DOES have such wonders or you might as well burry it now and save some time; you said you plan to run it as a business – the very meaning of that IS economic activity and market value.	[06:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:45:27 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case… what happens depends on what he wants and it sounds at present	[06:42]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021064 – trinque , I confess that my perception doesn't fully match your stated perception here; for one thing I don't get at all how is that 4th piece now a matter of busybox-as-entire-userland position/decision, when according to your own [http://trinque.org/2020/01/20/a-republican-os-part-3/#comment-155][previous …	[06:56]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 23:55:28 trinque: I perceive myself to have been very clear so far, but I'll save that for next.	[06:56]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 23:20:21 trinque: I'll write the 4th piece when y'all beat me out of my busybox-as-entire-userland position, or I yours	[06:56]
diana_coman:	… description], I was expecting a discussion of how V enters the picture, followed by a summary and a spec. It's clear that something's not clearly expressed or at least not clearly enough for me – why does a discussion of how V enters the picture require an agreement of position re only-busybox-or-not? and furthermore, why would a discussion of V-in-OS depend on such a choice?	[06:56]
diana_coman:	trinque: is there some day & time when you can set aside some time-window so there is some predictable way to interact with you? I understand that you have very little time available and so a fixed and known-upfront window would make the most of it, I'd say.	[06:58]
diana_coman:	will bbl	[07:07]
diana_coman:	this evening I'll be around from 8pm UTC most likely, instead of the usual 7pm.	[10:53]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021174 << if it were something of a joint effort, I'd say. one of the points I've been making is that it's not.	[11:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:27:54 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021050 – trinque, what are you working on? after all this time I still don't have any clear idea at all, really.	[11:25]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.	[11:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:56:38 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021064 – trinque , I confess that my perception doesn't fully match your stated perception here; for one thing I don't get at all how is that 4th piece now a matter of busybox-as-entire-userland position/decision, when according to your own [http://trinque.org/2020/01/20/a-republican-os-part-3/#comment-155][previous …	[11:27]
trinque:	and yeah, having a window within which we can all talk would be helpful, I think.	[11:29]
trinque:	but go ahead and read that exchange with dorion and jfw if you will. I'm banging on about from-cause vs towards-purpose, and surely that doesn't come as a surprise.	[11:31]
trinque:	I would also like to know what you think of what I've said re: hubris.	[11:31]
trinque:	I do not wish to join any further grand crusades for skypie.	[11:32]
trinque:	ploddingly simple process of coherent decisionmaking, pls & ty.	[11:32]
trinque:	bbl, will pop in around 3pm his time, 8pm yours.	[11:32]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021186 – I get it that it's not joint; I further have to infer though that it is secret; the reason why I asked is so that I get some idea re what you have most interest in, not so that there's some forced join of any sort; does this make any sense to you? can you at least clarify for me the reason for secrecy?	[12:01]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:25:16 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021174 << if it were something of a joint effort, I'd say. one of the points I've been making is that it's not.	[12:01]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021188 – that is a most reasonable condition indeed; can you spell out for me your other major conditions?	[12:05]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:27:37 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.	[12:05]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021192 – while I call it differently for good reasons, I have already said that there's a need for a full re-think; it might not have been obvious, but that includes exactly your point there.	[12:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:31:59 trinque: I would also like to know what you think of what I've said re: hubris.	[12:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 19:01:53 diana_coman: dorion: to the extent that you want to do that, it can be, why not; but do realise that there's as always a whole context to it and as such, it will still need some re-think and some discussion and some wider planning.	[12:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:32:38 trinque: ploddingly simple process of coherent decisionmaking, pls & ty.	[12:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: in short, I think we actually agree on fundamentals but we have interacted and communicated directly so precious little and so fragmented that it's very easy to end up in disagreements just for lack of clear shared terms (or clear understanding of one another's terms)	[12:18]
diana_coman:	if it's any help, there are plenty of documented cases even of me and MP seemingly disagreeing most strongly on something – to only turn out after quite a heated conversation that no, we actually agree about the core of whatever it was.	[12:19]
diana_coman:	anyways, I'll be back in the evening and looking forward to talking to you.	[12:20]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. "How to bring a newspaper into the economic loop" is indeed the substantial problem, and doing so without falling into a fiat-stupid thing post-Republic is a big problem.	[14:33]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/14/rmd-week-20-plan-mar-14-20th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 20 plan, Mar 14-20th, 2020	[16:32]
jfw:	I've got some ketchup to do today (sleep was a start) and won't likely be good for much chat. I can already say a Saturday review isn't happening.	[16:44]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: figure out if you can find a solution or not as the sooner you decide (on significant grounds) either way, the better for sure.	[16:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: all right; hopefully a Sunday review does happen though.	[16:55]
jfw:	ack.	[16:55]
jfw:	I'm noticing the passive voice I defaulted to there.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, well spotted.	[16:58]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021188 – and yeah that's a quite reasonable condition trinque, even adjusting for the hyperbole. One way I can improve in the multi-party case is focusing on what's addressed to me before chewing on messages from others.	[17:04]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:27:37 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.	[17:04]
trinque:	good afternoon/evening.	[17:15]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021174 << what do you do when you're not on IRC?	[17:16]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:27:54 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021050 – trinque, what are you working on? after all this time I still don't have any clear idea at all, really.	[17:16]
trinque:	I'd have loved for the republic to be my entire day, but I didn't accomplish that.	[17:16]
diana_coman:	hello trinque	[17:16]
diana_coman:	as to what do I do, the condensed list would be: eulora; family & friends & assorted personal interests. Does this answer your question?	[17:18]
dorion:	hi trinque.	[17:18]
trinque:	diana_coman: I meanwhile attend to all manner of mind-numbing business outside anything remotely interesting to the republic.	[17:19]
trinque:	dorion: hello	[17:19]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021188 – while several of your questions made me pause and think. the 20 min delay was honest to god freenode weather. first time since december I've had my connection dropped.	[17:20]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 11:27:37 trinque: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.	[17:20]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021179 << when I erupted on a few folks last year, I perceived that the L1 had degenerated.	[17:20]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:56:38 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1021064 – trinque , I confess that my perception doesn't fully match your stated perception here; for one thing I don't get at all how is that 4th piece now a matter of busybox-as-entire-userland position/decision, when according to your own [http://trinque.org/2020/01/20/a-republican-os-part-3/#comment-155][previous …	[17:20]
trinque:	dorion: I'll get over it then.	[17:20]
trinque:	the degeneracy would take more than a few lines to digest.	[17:21]
trinque:	but its fruits look like "I just wake up every day gee golly and do my best to bring about heaven on earth"	[17:21]
trinque:	and the imitations of MP's affectations	[17:21]
trinque:	I could go on.	[17:21]
trinque:	I am not excluded from that degeneracy.	[17:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: out of curiosity – do you include me in there too?	[17:22]
trinque:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021183 << yes, and this is my first good faith step in that direction.	[17:22]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 06:58:29 diana_coman: trinque: is there some day & time when you can set aside some time-window so there is some predictable way to interact with you? I understand that you have very little time available and so a fixed and known-upfront window would make the most of it, I'd say.	[17:22]
trinque:	diana_coman: less than most, but I imagine that if eulora is your main professional focus, that this comes with income of some form.	[17:23]
diana_coman:	trinque: the terms are public in smg's reports, so that's not news	[17:23]
trinque:	so in a sense, you're the best example of what was missing from everyone else's efforts.	[17:23]
trinque:	of course.	[17:23]
trinque:	how do you square this volunteer effort to "build an OS" with your enterprise?	[17:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: it's also known that stan for instance rejected the option himself (to bitch afterwards that he didn't get anything, without saying that he asked for way more than was reasonable etc)	[17:24]
diana_coman:	trinque: are you aware of the history re my involvement with eulora ? (I'm asking so I know where to start, no other reason)	[17:25]
trinque:	I haven't implied that mp ought to have bankrolled everything in sight either.	[17:25]
trinque:	that would've been stupid.	[17:25]
trinque:	diana_coman: might as well refresh me	[17:25]
trinque:	so I have context	[17:26]
diana_coman:	trinque: right; in short: I started as a player like everyone else, back when chetty was smg's CTO (and btw she worked without direct pay, for SSW only)	[17:27]
trinque:	yeah, that much I remember	[17:27]
trinque:	and real quick, current events don't suddenly make stan my hero. far from it.	[17:27]
diana_coman:	then as a player I developed foxybot	[17:28]
diana_coman:	without pay and without prompting or support as such from anywhere	[17:28]
diana_coman:	so yeah, as a "volunteer" effort	[17:28]
diana_coman:	I made it public too and people used it to their benefit	[17:28]
trinque:	and you fed yourself how during this time?	[17:28]
trinque:	you come from money? or did you work elsewhere?	[17:29]
diana_coman:	btw, now that I went into this, I recalled that there were a few people rewarded with ssws for various useful bits and pieces – iirc jurov for instance	[17:29]
diana_coman:	(it's in old smg reports so it can be dug up)	[17:29]
diana_coman:	trinque: no, I don't come from money, heh; there's on my blog eg http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/01/martisor/ and http://ossasepia.com/2019/10/21/and-i-wont-save-you-from-the-rats/ that might give some idea	[17:30]
diana_coman:	fwiw I suspect if anything I possibly come (by necessity of place rather than anything else) from less money than ~everyone around here	[17:30]
trinque:	eh, I've lived in an actual shed in pennsylvania winter	[17:31]
trinque:	but this isn't a competition, of course	[17:31]
diana_coman:	to give a concrete idea – in the 80's my father went to the US and funnily enough to Texas (because petroleum industry); he recounted the moment when they got treated to some icecream – and they realised that the icecream cost about their whole salary for 2 weeks.	[17:31]
trinque:	but you might imagine how intent I am on not repeating the experience.	[17:31]
diana_coman:	yeah, it's not re competition, just trying to answer your question	[17:32]
trinque:	point remains that you probably had some other means of sustaining yourself while at botworks	[17:32]
trinque:	of course	[17:32]
diana_coman:	trinque: yes, I worked on my own; basically the full background is this:	[17:33]
diana_coman:	in RO university studies are without tax (if you pass the exam ie limited places); so I got in and got even some stipend for doing well enough	[17:33]
trinque:	heh, same, but I was so depressed with what I got in a "university" I left rather than burn the place down.	[17:34]
diana_coman:	in last year, I further got 1 of the few places in a joint master program with a french uni; then got 1 of 3 places on a stipend of ~500 euros total to do my project in lyon (and there was NO acommodation provided or anything either)	[17:34]
diana_coman:	so I went there and managed to find somehow just about the cheapest thing possible (it was everything in one room and that room some 2x3m thing); my reasoning was that anyway I don't afford anything else and moreover, all the better motivation to spend my time at the uni on my project	[17:35]
diana_coman:	so yeah, perhaps not a shed but I'm not sure if much better (fwiw it also had as "view" a small window towards a narrow pit of a sort of "inner court" ; an ancient building etc.	[17:36]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: As I was out and about today, I pondered ways to bring Qntra into the economic loop. Every single one seems to better fit an idea, that I'd been bouncing around as a hobby, but as a refugee from an impossible Republic, the idea I though the hobby seems like the better business. I'm inclined to go forward with a new project doing Uruguay news in English. It's a smaller target, but it is a defensible one. Running escort ads	[17:37]
BingoBoingo:	and growshop ads presents a more ready path to entering the economic loop than anything that could be run on Qntra.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	anyways, did that; there was further mess but in short ended up on another stipend for phd studies in north tyrol; without accomodation again and moreover, with some delay re money	[17:37]
diana_coman:	there were about 6 of us phd students in the same situation and we very nearly ended up sleeping in the street indeed for all sorts of mess reasons; still, got in the end a flat share.	[17:38]
trinque:	BingoBoingo: what is wrong with having one hustle pay for another?	[17:39]
diana_coman:	won't go the full story there, maybe I will sometime on blog but anyways, while phd stipends exist, they are not exactly huge or anything; still, compared to the thing in france it was way better.	[17:39]
trinque:	diana_coman: yep, I've lived this life, bootstrapped a few businesses, varying degrees of success, never took any investment or financing.	[17:39]
trinque:	the last part is just because I didn't have the network, and not because I was against it.	[17:40]
diana_coman:	after phd, I got a post-doc position but I had had already quite enough (there's some pictures of me at various events and looking at my own expression there says it all but anyways)	[17:40]
trinque:	diana_coman: it's entirely reasonable not to enter every moment of your life into the public record.	[17:40]
BingoBoingo:	trinque: Nothing wrong, but if I go forward with the more narrowly scoped Uruguay news, Qntra's going to necessarily become a secondary/hobby concern.	[17:40]
trinque:	BingoBoingo: ideally you hire in the first concern, and it gives you your freedom to do the second.	[17:41]
diana_coman:	I still stayed for one year because I had promissed it; and then I went away and did for the next years ~anything I was interested in on the condition that I find someone to pay me for it	[17:41]
BingoBoingo:	trinque: There are very good reasons to not hire in Uruguay on any basis other than pay independent contractors per piece of work.	[17:42]
diana_coman:	oh, and in 2012 I had a child too; that added the experience of 1.5 years of max 3 hours sleep per night (and broken sleep) on top of other things;	[17:42]
diana_coman:	and after that, pretty much re-started because nobody ever awaits for anyone 1.5 years or the like	[17:43]
diana_coman:	that's where I was and what I was doing when I "volunteered" for smg	[17:43]
diana_coman:	possibly that brings it up to date but ask away anything that's not clear	[17:44]
trinque:	all very clear.	[17:45]
trinque:	when you were doing whatever it took to float, you were doing bots, etc	[17:45]
trinque:	not diminishing that work, but it was of one scale	[17:45]
diana_coman:	fwiw re os, I don't think it was ever meant to be a volunteer effort, no	[17:45]
trinque:	this surprises me, as I've been beating my head against a wall trying to discuss the economics of the problem, from where I sit.	[17:46]
trinque:	were I dorion and jfw, I wouldn't be doing anything but finding the first few clients. I proposed a few avenues in threads earlier in the year, or last year.	[17:47]
trinque:	"I know Peter Schiff" etc	[17:48]
diana_coman:	trinque: hope you don't mind me saying it but I'd say the trouble was not in the intention but in the communication.	[17:48]
trinque:	I, personally, do not know anyone who wants such a thing.	[17:48]
trinque:	so I will not be the one to find that client.	[17:48]
trinque:	I am also bolted to the offloading of a business I've been chained to for a decade.	[17:49]
diana_coman:	trinque: hm? that didn't parse, from "do not know anyone who wants such a thing"	[17:49]
diana_coman:	ah, you mean you don't know anyone who wants an os?	[17:49]
trinque:	I do not know anyone to whom I can sell a curated stack, yes.	[17:49]
trinque:	everyone in my network dorks on AWS and alikes	[17:49]
trinque:	fat/happy etc	[17:49]
dorion:	this is as good a point as any to restate : http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Mar-2020#1021146	[17:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-14 01:05:26 dorion: trinque, I'll admit that's management failure. I could've ask s.mg or the bitcoin foundation since they were to directly benefit. I didn't.	[17:50]
trinque:	dorion: yes, but there needed to be capital flows into the republic	[17:50]
dorion:	trinque we have been focused on the consulting, but it has been slow this year.	[17:50]
diana_coman:	trinque: I can fully believe the aws and the likes indeed; there's also the significant part that republic failed to exist and so the whole context is changed and so far it hasn't even been reviewed as such; which is pre-requisite for any thinking of any related work, whether os or anything else anyways; I'll probably end up doing the review too since apparently nobody even considers it needed or something but that's besides the point.	[17:51]
dorion:	re Peter Schiff in particular, to clarify, I met him once when he interviewed me for his bank, from that point he was very passive with the business.	[17:51]
trinque:	diana_coman: I feel as though I'm reviewing.	[17:52]
diana_coman:	trinque: what I don't understand is why wouldn't you finish that series since you started it and since you know what you want to say anyway? I don't see it chained to some choice (which I don't even think it's clear or possible to clarify right now)	[17:52]
diana_coman:	trinque: what do you see as concrete output to come out of the review?	[17:53]
trinque:	I am clearly failing to articulate a point that I'll render "the future does not exist", or I'll point to MP's causes vs purpose, or absent those I don't know what else.	[17:54]
trinque:	I will not help another batch of folks whip up enormous egos they didn't earn, or do so in myself.	[17:54]
trinque:	doesn't mean I won't help the OS thing.	[17:55]
trinque:	but there's a more fundamental problem.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	trinque: I don't follow there; I get your from causes not towards purpose, yes; I get even "the future does not exist", yes; I suspect we see even that series differently in that I see it precisely from a cause while you consider it to be towards a purpose – and from here on I'm already baffled.	[17:56]
trinque:	happy to earnestly work towards lesser embafflement	[17:56]
diana_coman:	you looked at those things in detail from what I could see; and you reasoned on them; that's cause already to write it down and publish it, fully; it's not towards a purpose ("so that there will be an os" or whatevers); what am I missing ?	[17:57]
trinque:	when I read that BingoBoingo resolves to this and that in re: to becoming the greatest source of bitcoin news, I don't see that we've culturally learned anything.	[17:57]
BingoBoingo:	trinque: Right, I'm starting to deflate today after…. think about bringing Qntra into economy post-Republic	[17:58]
diana_coman:	trinque: for one thing that was previous to end of tmsr; for the other it was even then long-term aim, is there something wrong with that?	[17:58]
trinque:	yes, very wrong.	[17:58]
trinque:	you aim to be the greatest whatever when you're the second-greatest whatever.	[17:58]
diana_coman:	trinque: why?	[17:58]
diana_coman:	long-term, not "tomorrow" nor "next step"	[17:59]
diana_coman:	do you consider you should never even consider more than right next step?	[17:59]
trinque:	because history demonstrates that if you allow them the "long-term", they fetishize it.	[17:59]
trinque:	diana_coman: if someone is saying "long-term", they'd better have a whole damned chain of credible ways to get there.	[18:00]
trinque:	otherwise there are far closer-in problems to address.	[18:00]
trinque:	the fixation on long-term is precisely what robs their cycles, and keeps them from doing anything at all now.	[18:00]
diana_coman:	trinque: it's up to him to come with that chain; if he fails to, then he fails; and the fact that some will misuse /fetishize something, does not mean that the something is off the table; you can't protect anyone against themselves, I don't think so.	[18:00]
trinque:	when he hasn't launched a rocket, I certainly can call plans of moonbase idiocy.	[18:02]
diana_coman:	trinque: no fixation is meant or should happen,no, that's NOT what long-term is for,wtf; listen, if you are telling me that everyone is an idiot because you saw -and I'll grant you that you are right in that evaluation- only idiots, this does not change the utility of long-term plans.	[18:02]
trinque:	or substitute "Loper OS", or "Masamune" as moonbase	[18:02]
diana_coman:	trinque: it's not plans of moonbase; it's final aim for moonbase as direction;	[18:03]
diana_coman:	it's meant as direction, nothing more.	[18:03]
trinque:	it isn't in practice only direction.	[18:03]
trinque:	it's excuse.	[18:03]
diana_coman:	and the trouble with taking stuff off the table because some will misuse it is that the same some will just misuse something else.	[18:03]
trinque:	better stated, it's a fetish that keeps them from beholding that they have no plan.	[18:03]
diana_coman:	trinque: sure, they can use it as an excuse; they'll use anything else as an excuse for the same thing.	[18:04]
trinque:	we do not disagree on the point of having plans.	[18:04]
trinque:	have them.	[18:04]
trinque:	if "they'll use anything else" how can one ever improve himself?	[18:04]
diana_coman:	no, it's not the fetish (or the long-term aim) keeping anyone from anything; it's their own idiocy keeping them from it and just latching onto the long-term plan if present or otherwise it will latch onto something else just the same.	[18:05]
trinque:	this "idiocy" symbol may very well resolve to the exact same thing in both our heads.	[18:05]
trinque:	the fucking underpants ??? profit.	[18:05]
diana_coman:	trinque: hm, there's some bit that didn't get over to you there	[18:05]
diana_coman:	trinque: dunno if you are aware at all re this younghands project's history so far because possibly it gives already some practical examples	[18:06]
trinque:	I've been watching	[18:06]
diana_coman:	I have pushed everyone to get some basic, minimal habits re interaction, accountability and so on	[18:07]
trinque:	and yes, I can see you training folks to draw themselves out before their own eyes in writing.	[18:07]
trinque:	I've also seen some "I've been a very naughty boy and I must be punished"	[18:07]
diana_coman:	and for the same pushing, look at the results and compare	[18:07]
diana_coman:	trinque: and some who went "you evil" and so one	[18:07]
diana_coman:	so on*	[18:08]
trinque:	I don't know that it reflects on you, but it's methodologically different than how I've run shops. possibly comes down to gender at that.	[18:08]
diana_coman:	trinque: so now with those examples, you tell me, is the "planning/writing/those habits" that make them x and y?	[18:08]
trinque:	what's the x and y here?	[18:08]
diana_coman:	let's link it back then, for clarity: there was the stated ~ "long-term plans are just fetishized and keep them from focusing on what needs to be done", correct?	[18:09]
trinque:	let me give a more nuanced rendering.	[18:09]
diana_coman:	sure, I'm listening	[18:09]
trinque:	I was trying to convey it with the complexity:ownership discussion.	[18:10]
trinque:	are you familiar with heidegger's ready-to-hand?	[18:10]
BingoBoingo:	going to bake a presentation on my present dilema and the coalescing idea for review	[18:10]
diana_coman:	trinque: sadly, I would not consider myself familiar with it, no.	[18:10]
trinque:	I'll probably butcher it myself, but it is descriptive of the possibilities that are disclosed through objects in one's environment which can be acted through	[18:11]
trinque:	you pick up a hammer, through it you have all these possible actions enabled.	[18:11]
trinque:	the grass on the field is not ready-to-hand in this way.	[18:12]
trinque:	skis, ready-to-hand	[18:12]
trinque:	follow?	[18:12]
diana_coman:	hm, not quite sure; I can see hammer and skis as a sort of "tools" vs grass as …dunno, not-tool?	[18:12]
trinque:	yep, that.	[18:12]
diana_coman:	but I don't quite grasp where the border /demarcation is	[18:13]
diana_coman:	ie I can use even a blade of grass as a "tool" – to tickle someone, or to annoy bugs, whatever	[18:13]
trinque:	sure, it's more descriptive of your psychological posture towards the object than a fundamental about the object.	[18:13]
diana_coman:	heh, and I think that quite gets to the difference in our views re "long-term plans are bad because idiots misuse them"	[18:14]
trinque:	oh? go on	[18:14]
diana_coman:	trinque: considering the long-term plans as a "tool", right? you say "the observed psychological posture in my environment is that this is a tool for fetishizing"	[18:15]
diana_coman:	does that make sense?	[18:15]
trinque:	can sorta see it.	[18:16]
trinque:	I was going to discuss that the ready-to-handness of objects differs; it's not a binary.	[18:16]
trinque:	there are degrees of it.	[18:16]
trinque:	differs depending on the subject too.	[18:17]
diana_coman:	I consider that the fundamentals about the object are the fixed thing; and then people come with their own psychological posture(s) that further they CAN change (if they are not idiots because that is what not being an idiot even mean – changing to make better use of stuff)	[18:17]
trinque:	yes, we're entirely discussing psychology here.	[18:17]
trinque:	heidegger dealt with ontology of being	[18:17]
trinque:	but anyhow, I'm not an expert on him. this is just something I found useful	[18:18]
diana_coman:	you seem to consider that the psychological posture is both fixed /cvasi-universal and relevant for how things should be made ; I can see the practicality of it for sure ie yeah, if you need to make 10 idiots do something then you'll fit the tools exactly to their idiocy, sure.	[18:18]
trinque:	actually, I'm getting to where the idiots are the tools	[18:19]
diana_coman:	fat-fingered my client and ended up saying that in your chan, sorry.	[18:19]
trinque:	no problem	[18:19]
diana_coman:	trinque: I can see that point re idiots being the tools too; I did not aim younghands at idiots, quite on purpose; it's perhaps, a luxury, I can readily admit that.	[18:20]
trinque:	there are a lot of directions to go from here, so I'm going to pick one, and make note of a few others	[18:20]
trinque:	one sec	[18:21]
trinque:	ok, an object is a tool if a human can project action through the object.	[18:21]
trinque:	the potence of that projected action depends on several factors.	[18:22]
diana_coman:	trinque: trouble there being that "a human" runs into the wide range of capability of such projection if you consider all bipeds as human	[18:22]
trinque:	sure, I do not	[18:22]
diana_coman:	2 minutes, I need to nip and get a jumper as I'm for some reason freezing here all of a sudden, ugh.	[18:22]
trinque:	but I want to be careful not to lean on that kind of thing, because people like to pick it up and rub on their ego.	[18:22]
trinque:	sure. I'll go on a bit if you don't mind, and try not to hit enter too much.	[18:23]
diana_coman:	I'm back; and sure, go ahead, I'm listening.	[18:24]
trinque:	the potence of action projected through the tool is a function of the human's input, the leverage or advantage of the tool, and the object acted upon	[18:24]
trinque:	this is where I want to bring back in complexity.	[18:25]
trinque:	I think in my post I wanted to further deconstruct into wovenness-into-itself and wovenness-into-environment.	[18:26]
trinque:	what would a hammer woven-into-itself look like?	[18:27]
diana_coman:	hm, do you mean what would complexity of self-woveness look like/mean for a hammer?	[18:28]
trinque:	correct	[18:28]
diana_coman:	is now suddenly reviewing all the sorts of "hammers" she has ever seen or handled	[18:28]
trinque:	maybe it's a jackhammer, and it generates heat, so there's energy loss into the body of the thing	[18:29]
diana_coman:	tbh I think there are some that I'd consider to have quite some self-wovenness complexity – dunno if there's a different term for them than plain hammer in English	[18:29]
trinque:	maybe it degrades over time due to this waste energy	[18:29]
trinque:	yeah, I'm not painting a picture of something bad	[18:30]
trinque:	painting a picture of something that is.	[18:30]
diana_coman:	well, for a simple thing actually it's …balance perhaps? for any hammer ie the positioning of the handle	[18:30]
trinque:	would you expect the energy loss to ramp as complexity ramps in the tool?	[18:30]
trinque:	a simple hammer, lots of the energy is transferred directly to the object you're hammering	[18:31]
trinque:	as the tool becomes more woven into itself, more and more of the energy ought to be lost, each step in the complex machine being imperfect.	[18:31]
diana_coman:	what do you mean by complexity ramping in the hammer tool?	[18:32]
trinque:	I mean, in the class of hammers, there are more and less complicated ones	[18:32]
diana_coman:	ah, I see	[18:32]
trinque:	and that there are properties which scale with the complexity.	[18:32]
diana_coman:	indeed	[18:32]
trinque:	maybe we can be very clever and offset some of the energy loss of this complexity	[18:32]
trinque:	so the operator-skill term of the equation matters	[18:33]
trinque:	for all I know, there's a much smarter hammer than the hand tool that's more complex but also more efficient, i.e. less lossy of energy input to energy output	[18:33]
diana_coman:	I can see that, yes; supposedly an automated hammer would even fit the bill re less waste of input energy.	[18:35]
trinque:	yep, at much greater cost to design the tool, produce the tool, to operate the tool, but yes	[18:35]
diana_coman:	certainly.	[18:35]
trinque:	I could probably eventually make a shitty hand-tool hammer myself without much, whereas the automatic one incurs at least a machine shop (with all the industrial processes behind the tools inside) if not a factory outright.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	indeed	[18:37]
trinque:	the costs ramp profoundly as complexity of the tool increases.	[18:37]
diana_coman:	well, as the tool effectively packs more, it means that more went into it, yes; no possible other way there for sure.	[18:38]
trinque:	now lets talk about perhaps the most hellishly complex tool on earth.	[18:38]
diana_coman:	might even add though that this is talking of the useful sort of complexity because otherwise ramping up costs for useless complexity is a very easy thing anyway.	[18:39]
trinque:	so utterly relevant if we switch to talking about computers!	[18:39]
diana_coman:	there was the dubiousness of whether computers even qualify for "tool" in any sense (ie worse than a hammer for sure) but ok.	[18:40]
trinque:	can't wait to talk about humans next, because your comment applies as well to them	[18:41]
diana_coman:	certainly	[18:41]
trinque:	computers are certainly perverse, if tools.	[18:41]
diana_coman:	ahaha, how do you mean perverse?	[18:41]
trinque:	given input, they mostly act upon themselves, and at astonishing scale.	[18:41]
trinque:	for every hammer swing, they blast themselves into a new state however many billion times	[18:42]
trinque:	I'm imagining the weird states the ship in hitchhiker's guide got into every time it warp jumped, or w/e	[18:42]
diana_coman:	hm, they blast themselves into a new state in that sense even without input so not sure in what sense there is the input relevant?	[18:42]
diana_coman:	(and yes, it applies to humans too!)	[18:43]
trinque:	do you disagree that computers are ready-to-hand in the contemplated sense?	[18:43]
trinque:	(I would actually agree, but would consider this degeneracy of contemporary computers)	[18:44]
trinque:	in the abstract, insults towards them aside, they appear to me to be tools we use to multiply human agency	[18:44]
trinque:	the odd thing is that they mostly send their magnified output straight back to us	[18:45]
diana_coman:	I don't think they are ready-to-hand in that strict sense, no; not sure re degeneracy of contemporary computers ie possible but since for practical reasons this is what computers are today, either we talk of abstracts or we talk of them.	[18:45]
trinque:	the hammer's feedback loop, if we consider it this way, is much longer	[18:45]
trinque:	what distinguishes them from the ready-to-hand definition	[18:45]
trinque:	?	[18:45]
diana_coman:	hm, I can't say I have it all clear and haven't previously thought in those terms either.	[18:46]
diana_coman:	but I'd start from precisely my comment above that the input doesn't mean a significant difference re "change of internal state"	[18:47]
trinque:	distinguishing that the computer even has an internal state, eh?	[18:48]
diana_coman:	normally my "computers are not clearly tools" starts from "what's their purpose if they are tools?"	[18:48]
diana_coman:	trinque: at component level, sure	[18:48]
trinque:	the working definition I have of "tool" is just "object I can wield"	[18:49]
diana_coman:	well, I have sorely tempted to throw computers out of the window a couple of times so certainly can wield; though still more as a poor hammer.	[18:49]
trinque:	hahahaha	[18:49]
diana_coman:	heh; but on one hand that's the thing I was saying earlier re "what's the purpose of this thing called computer if you mean it's a tool" (with answer ~ ??); and otherwise, this comes yet back again to the initial difference – for me ~anything can be a tool, as it depends on the one wielding it, not on the thing.	[18:51]
diana_coman:	that's back to active vs passive.	[18:51]
trinque:	I would feel as though I were wielding a computer if I used one to launch some missiles, or what have you.	[18:51]
diana_coman:	after all, is a rock a tool?	[18:51]
trinque:	one could say I'm wielding the computer-missle complex	[18:52]
diana_coman:	dunno, why that and more specifically how/where do you decide "this is enough to feel like wielding a computer"?	[18:52]
trinque:	where cause begins is a sort of impossible conversation, regresses to the unmoved mover	[18:53]
trinque:	to restate, what is interesting about having computers?	[18:54]
diana_coman:	with a practical example – take blogs reading/writing with all the links and comments – is making use of that (the reading or the writing or both) – "wielding a computer" or not?	[18:54]
trinque:	is it not that we can act through them?	[18:54]
trinque:	sure, all of that	[18:54]
diana_coman:	well, it's not missiles!	[18:54]
diana_coman:	lolz	[18:54]
trinque:	you are massively magnifying your biological capacity to have a conversation	[18:54]
diana_coman:	perhaps; I can see the point that it's interesting to the degree that one finds something useful to do with it (and perhaps furthermore, something that can't be done otherwise/not to the same extent); not sure if this is of much use though.	[18:55]
trinque:	what other uses do computers have than to act through them, and to be acted upon by them?	[18:56]
trinque:	to my mind, a computer is a tool that astonishingly multiplies our capacity for language	[18:57]
diana_coman:	why specifically/only language or do you mean that in a very wide sense?	[18:57]
trinque:	very wide	[18:57]
diana_coman:	I can kind of see it; I wouldn't have gone for it and right now with just this brief consideration (so without having thought it through at all really), it still seems to me way too high level really.	[18:59]
trinque:	it's necessary for any subsequent claims, so we could park it there for now and resume in a bit if you like	[19:01]
trinque:	I have some chores staring me down	[19:01]
diana_coman:	trinque: ah, in that case, would you prefer to resume tomorrow? (otherwise I'm fine to work with that definition and from it)	[19:02]
trinque:	tomorrow sounds good. what time works for you, the same?	[19:03]
diana_coman:	8pm utc can work well, yes; it gives some earlier time to talk to others as needed too, so possibly for the best.	[19:04]
trinque:	alright, I'll be back by then.	[19:05]
diana_coman:	cool.	[19:05]
trinque:	goes back to apocalyptic spring cleaning	[19:05]
diana_coman:	bwahahah, enjoy then!	[19:05]
BingoBoingo:	grateful for the exercise in iterating the Qntra plan in getting this new, seemingly actionable idea written.	[19:32]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow at 7pm UTC as usual.	[19:48]

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#ossasepia Logs for 13 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 7:29 pm

BingoBoingo:	presented the "What to do about Qntra?" question to MP http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147790	[00:01]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020660 – it wouldn't surprise me if you did. in part because where we're at and in part because I see you laughing a lot.	[00:57]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 14:19:42 diana_coman: I kind of have an inkling that if I attended one of those events in Panama, I'd be laughing a lot.	[00:57]
dorion:	jfw, BingoBoingo, lobbes, whaack thanks for speaking up today. I'm glad we're all continuing to look for a way forward here despite the uncertainty at present.	[01:00]
dorion:	bvt, spyked, ave1, trinque, billymg I'm definitely curious to hear what each of you has to say.	[01:01]
lobbes:	dorion: definitely. The conversation here in #o today was helpful to me as well.	[01:35]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020737 << I think I get what you mean here now; it ties in to the can't-transplant-culture thing	[01:35]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 20:12:28 diana_coman: well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".	[01:35]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 20:26:32 diana_coman: dorion: in short, culture is essentially a sum-result; sure, it can be transmitted but within the environment that grew it basically, not transplanted (and the transplating approach has been tried over and over again with the same fail each and every time)	[01:35]
lobbes:	as in, we can go forward in many directions, but in all directions the primary authority will not be as it was before. Therefore the meaning will necessarily be flowing from a different source. Or something like that	[01:35]
diana_coman:	lobbes: that "or something like that" is quite the hedging.	[04:59]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793	[11:52]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally	[14:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 16:45:15 diana_coman: ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack – do you care to say your mind on this, at all?	[14:23]
billymg:	the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20	[14:23]
billymg:	20/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/][Qntra], i immediately correlated with mp's announcement)	[14:23]
billymg:	http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form	[14:23]
billymg:	on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo	[14:24]
billymg:	re the market crash, etc.	[14:24]
billymg:	after reassuring myself that i have what's needed for basic survival my thoughts quickly turned to what i would do, and what would become of the republic, this thing for which i have rearranged my life to become a part of	[14:24]
billymg:	mp was like the father all of us orphans never had, and since finding trilema and the logs i have grown more than i ever could have expected, or even knew was possible (and from the age of 30 onwards no less). i don't know what my life would be like without mp as the living example but it's not something i even want to think about	[14:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 18:17:36 diana_coman: jfw: the reason I'm not providing you with "the definition" is that I doubt it will be any help if the detailed, documented and interacted-with live example can't help.	[14:24]
billymg:	in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different	[14:24]
billymg:	my interpretation is also not that the man has retired completely, but that he feels that if there's any hope of any of us becoming men he needs to cut us loose. throw the kid in the pool so he'll learn to swim	[14:25]
billymg:	and he has left us with a tremendous amount of support (trilema and the logs, including personal interactions with each of us). if at this point we can't continue to republic in his absence then we don't deserve the republic and it is indeed true that it cannot be constructed	[14:25]
billymg:	for myself, i plan to continue to republic, which i understand as, stop working for the enemy, stop collecting your paycheck from a pantsuit HR department, stop half-assing and waiting around to be told what to do like a wage slave, and find your own way, with others like you	[14:25]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: nor is that any kind of an exhaustive list. build a 3d art studio if you fucking feel like it, hire two or twelve dozen +ev animators to make things. buy some real estate for rental/airbnb-ing and run the damned thing as your castle, buy a buncha cab medallions do that, pretty much ~anything~ can be it.	[14:25]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: if you'd be interested in helping out on that front, it'll prolly be best if you actually get involved in the partnership outright. none of this "fix the website copy" "helping", erryone wants to do the "helping" of employees whereas republic needs independent men not wage slave wannabe's.	[14:25]
billymg:	as for mp-wp, i plan to continue to work on it only if mp or others want me to. up until now mp was the primary client and so the roadmap was shaped by his input and requirements. (although the recent embedded vpatch plugin and code shelf ideas came from diana_coman)	[14:25]
billymg:	i will comment on trilema to see what he would like me to do, and if he's no longer interested then i will survey everyone here. perhaps i'll see about using it to stand up a website for my bnb business, maybe write a calendar plugin for it to handle bookings/reservations	[14:26]
BingoBoingo:	<billymg> http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form << Sorry, but this error message doesn't parse for me.	[14:27]
billymg:	BingoBoingo: my previous line got cut in two, and so the link was split into two lines	[14:28]
billymg:	i.e. not "clickable" for those reading the logs	[14:29]
BingoBoingo:	billymg: Ah, ty. The connection to my desk did it's change ip dance and your the start of your speaking didn't make it to my irc client's display	[14:30]
billymg:	BingoBoingo: yup, np	[14:33]
billymg:	as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)	[14:36]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/13/rmd-week-19-review-mar-7-13th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 19 review, Mar 7-13th, 2020	[14:36]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020648 – is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?	[14:36]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 05:20:57 diana_coman: perhaps one way to see this is that here's a mighty wall, after all.	[14:36]
dorion:	hi billymg! I'm getting caught up on your lines now.	[14:37]
billymg:	and i will continue to keep my ears open for outreach in this way, since currently i don't think there's any other way i can support the OS project without getting in the way of the heavy hitters already working on it, outside perhaps testing candidate builds once it's at that point	[14:39]
billymg:	hola dorian, sounds good	[14:40]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020894 – I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I	[14:53]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:17 billymg: the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20	[14:53]
dorion:	have to say something.	[14:53]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020897 – good for you for getting out indeed.	[14:55]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:05 billymg: on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo	[14:55]
dorion:	billymg, I don't see where I disagree with you, glad to hear it.	[14:57]
dorion:	billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.	[15:00]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020915 – cool++, let me know when is good for you to talk about JWRD.	[15:02]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)	[15:02]
dorion:	will be back at 19 utc.	[15:03]
billymg:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020928 << thank you, good to hear	[15:05]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 15:00:17 dorion: billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.	[15:05]
billymg:	dorion: will do	[15:05]
billymg:	will bbl, teaching pet how to drive a manual	[15:06]
bvt:	dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).	[16:18]
dorion:	hey bvt, very glad to hear! and agree with coming up with a new name.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020881 – true, it's the healthier option I learnt with time.	[16:22]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 00:57:31 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020660 – it wouldn't surprise me if you did. in part because where we're at and in part because I see you laughing a lot.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020891 – there's a bit more he says in there; what do you make of the reason?	[16:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 11:52:14 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793	[16:23]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020892 – no worries; and reading.	[16:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:04 billymg: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally	[16:23]
diana_coman:	fwiw the lot happening seamingly at the same time/all at once tends to be how things go; the unsaid part being though that ~none of what "happens" just appears out of nowhere and so it's not mandatory to end up totally surprised by everything.	[16:26]
jfw:	billymg: I appreciated those comments, and second the weird coincidence; the previous day El Salvador goes quarantine and people here are avoiding shaking hands; then this happens. (and not out of nowhere, sure)	[16:29]
jfw:	dorion: from some of your words you seem to be taking it pretty hard. Is it that much of a shock, after the shakeups already going on even as we joined? Could be I'm feeling a bit …too stoical about it though	[16:32]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020902 – I would add that operations should continue in a different way; not just the passive "things will be different"; and I'd be quite interested in hearing what each of you thinks on this "different how" , too	[16:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:57 billymg: in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different	[16:32]
diana_coman:	hi jfw, how's the bellow of the blast & growling of the gale looking today?	[16:33]
jfw:	billymg: re OS, definitely don't underestimate the value of outside testing for turning up bad assumptions, unrecognized environmental differences, inadequate documentation etc. as my recent examples perhaps illustrate	[16:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: thoughtful words aren't coming to mind just yet there but I'm doing alright	[16:35]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020915 – to my mind, each has a vested interest in others' work&struggle to succeed and on wider grounds really but I don't know if this even makes any sense or to whom – unless each speaks their mind, on this as on anything else.	[16:36]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)	[16:36]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020917 – dorion , it was just a direct reference to that wall.	[16:37]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:50 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020648 – is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?	[16:37]
dorion:	jfw, I don't think I'm shocked since the current situation was a long time in development and from diana_coman's words yesterday I'm not beating myself up about it.	[16:38]
jfw:	dorion: cool. what do you mean by "said I have to say something" – I'm not recalling this?	[16:39]
dorion:	jfw, and now I'm drawing a blank on that quote. link ?	[16:42]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020936 – bvt, glad to hear this; what do you make/think of the situation otherwise?	[16:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 16:18:32 bvt: dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).	[16:42]
diana_coman:	dorion: in your review on yh	[16:42]
jfw:	this btw was at least as surprising to me as asking me to explain him V earlier	[16:42]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-13 mp_en_viaje: what i'll do is, come the 15th ima sweep the address into one of the web wallets and pay the fellows from there (at their own risk).	[16:42]
jfw:	maybe he uses 'web wallet' figuratively.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: surprises are where learning happens – IF you pester those surprises with questions!	[16:43]
jfw:	dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020922	[16:43]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020894 – I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I	[16:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: what is the surprise in there?	[16:44]
diana_coman:	today I'll need to go away from keyboard in about half an hour from now, so if there's something that is better discussed today than tomorrow, the sooner the better.	[16:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: given all the volume of btc he's dealt in and the depth of his resources and processes, and that mpex withdrawals aren't a new process for him at all, why would he be counting on a brand-new thing plus perfect preparation from me as only alternative to a worst-possible transaction tool?	[16:48]
dorion:	jfw, I misspoke there. I meant I said to myself I need to speak what's on my mind rather than whatever the alternative would've been.	[16:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: you are conflating there his options with his decision (and possibly with your own role in all of it, huh)	[16:50]
dorion:	not that you told me to.	[16:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: perhaps he just says it to get an itch under my skin	[16:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: well my surprise is with my role being presented as bigger than expected	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's a very silly way of looking at it and moreover, if you also use it (as it sounds) so that you basically ignore the feedback, it falls further than silly on that side.	[16:51]
jfw:	dorion: ah ok.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: perhaps leave to the side for a moment the attempt to evaluate MP's capabilities -since mhm, perhaps you don't quite have enough data there, you know?- and focus on the situation itself and what it meant/could mean for you, how about that? after all, it's your own position in any given situation that is possibly both best known to you and of most interest, right?	[16:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: right; happy to leave aside	[16:54]
diana_coman:	jfw: so that first step done, the next: what does/did the situation mean for you?	[16:55]
dorion:	diana_coman regarding the different way, I don't have anything at present.	[16:58]
dorion:	(not implying you were asking for it now)	[16:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: still here but struggling on how to answer that.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	dorion: your review aims for the most important differences you can make right now on your side, so no worries there at all.	[16:59]
dorion:	jfw in your words, it was an honor.	[17:00]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-07 jfw: Moving on though: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959066 – I'm honored; was spinning a bit on "but what if it fucks up and zaps more coin than I've ever laid hands on??" but yeah, can't wait for another life, it's about time	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, how come I keep coming with questions to struggle with?	[17:00]
diana_coman:	dorion: tsk, let him struggle, what; it's good for him; and he knows anyway that he won't get away with just that for an answer :P	[17:01]
jfw:	I was given a chance; I'd spent a lot of time preparing but didn't end up good enough to fit his needs, though it was still positive as a learning experience	[17:01]
jfw:	diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle	[17:02]
dorion:	diana_coman ok on both :)	[17:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: a chance to what? and were those specific-MP needs?	[17:02]
jfw:	a chance to interact and get his feedback for one	[17:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: there's more than one .	[17:03]
diana_coman:	dorion: were there some follow-up questions you had?	[17:04]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020990 – now I curse in Russian for lack of proper whatfor vs whyfrom; your answer looks at my "how come" as a "to what end"; my question asked "where from" – with a view to help you figure out also how to come with better questions at all times.	[17:05]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 17:02:04 jfw: diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle	[17:05]
jfw:	well, a chance for publicity I recall he said; then, for demonstrating what I was or wasn't ready for – well that's just another way of saying feedback it seems.	[17:06]
jfw:	diana_coman: ah, ty for point that out.	[17:07]
jfw:	*pointing	[17:07]
jfw:	and no it's not specific-MP needs – but I've found I'm still a bit confused on what happened:	[17:08]
diana_coman:	jfw: so what sort of needs then? and ask to clarify then	[17:09]
jfw:	specifically I can't expand for myself on what was the problem at hand, http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020922	[17:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-13-Mar-2020#1020894 – I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I	[17:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: sticking to what you know most on, namely your own stuff: you had just published/promised an offline wallet of your own making on top of previously published software that is the very core of your business; is this correct so far?	[17:11]
jfw:	hm do you mean the OS by previously published or what?	[17:12]
diana_coman:	the OS for sure; the scheme interpreter I'd gather; you tell me specifically what/if anything else	[17:13]
dorion:	diana_coman one was what directions forward you see ? but I accept if you prefer to see if people continuing here can I identify what you see without you saying it.	[17:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:22:24 diana_coman: well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".	[17:14]
jfw:	sure, the OS wasn't to be a part of the wallet exercise as I took it, I think I mistook your question. So, it's correct so far.	[17:15]
jfw:	The scheme interpreter was not previously published though, I was getting all that out.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	dorion: it's not that I'm looking for anyone to guess/match/identify, at all; it's simply that the viability of at least some directions depend a lot on what people want to do and which ways they want (or don't) to go; so for this reason, I really want to hear everyone who cares to go forwards in any way, really.	[17:16]
dorion:	diana_coman, makes sense.	[17:18]
diana_coman:	jfw: ok; MP gave you this opportunity of a live test with useful audience essentially; and in this I suspect is the first point to take home – by the sounds of it you really focused more on guessing/aiming for MP's needs than on the basic task(s) at hand first and foremost.	[17:18]
jfw:	My confusion is, he asked which v I was using; I had fully tested a dependency-light manual process for the single-patch trees, but assumed that if he preferred an automated V then he'd know which and how to use it	[17:20]
jfw:	(I've certainly used them before, but didn't test this time around, as admitted.)	[17:20]
diana_coman:	and in being a live test of what you aim for business, you should have approached exactly like a business prospect in the end; because the 2nd point is that an opportunity (with the right people) is not pre-bounded ie how much comes out of it/as a result of it is limited only by your performance really, not by whatever you might initially perceive as "the purpose" or anything of the sort.	[17:21]
diana_coman:	jfw: is that something you'd do to a business prospect?	[17:22]
diana_coman:	does it make more sense to you if I call the opportunity one to "showcase your offline wallet as a working business tool"?	[17:23]
jfw:	…I suppose I wouldn't.	[17:23]
diana_coman:	fwiw I do have a sneaking suspicion that your "business prospects" there are a very…interesting sort, let's say, but that'll be for another day; nevertheless, ^^^	[17:24]
jfw:	they don't seem to push back much on anything but price, if that's what you mean, which certainly doesn't help figure out what hangups are happening internally because of me or whatever else.	[17:26]
jfw:	which suggests to me again more practice with finding better questions to ask.	[17:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: and to wrap it up, as you might notice even in the wording above, it all comes back to the old and oft-repeated points of don't exam take in ANY form, no matter how light and focus on causes, never on purposes because you can NOT know the future.	[17:27]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 18:12:59 diana_coman: BingoBoingo: why the fuck would you focus on prediction of other peoples' reasoning instead of focusing on what you are trying to do, ffs	[17:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: that "don't seem to push back much on anything but price" is one the very obvious clues (and otherwise very much what I guessed without being there, because it's an effect not a cause)	[17:28]
jfw:	huh, thanks for tying the exam-taking. I was thinking in terms of "what was I supposed to do differently?" rather than… hm.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	aha; plenty of huhs and hms and mhms to ponder :P	[17:29]
jfw:	"what is the best/correct way to do it?" but that can't often be known, can it?	[17:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: the correct way to do it can be known – it stems from the task so why wouldn't it be possible to know? and note that it's not some mathematically proved absolute best we are talking about, yes?	[17:31]
jfw:	I'm also reminded of trinque's arguments re OS (bvt's too?) but… how do we know what to build if we don't know for what purpose	[17:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: o.O how do you jump now to that? an offline wallet is rather clearly defined (though now I recall one of the issues coming to light as a result of the attempt with MP was precisely that you didn't have quite a clear definition there to start with …)	[17:33]
jfw:	maybe that's why I hesitated to say "correct" because yeah the OS is a much foggier thing	[17:34]
diana_coman:	jfw: maybe start from there really; try to figure out proper definitions for what you are trying to do (recall, a definition serves basically to neatly separate the thing out of the huge soup of ~everything, in the end) and then work from them – it might make for more self-assurance too for that matter.	[17:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: an offline signer is a program that signs transactions and runs on a machine disconnected from the network, with data transferred by some other more controlled means. I could have stated that before, too, so quite seeing where that's my problem	[17:37]
jfw:	*not quite	[17:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: for one thing now it's offline signer rather than offline wallet and any change of words should be at least justified explicitly; for another thing, your problem seems to be that you don't use the definition when you get to bigger/fuzzier questions eg at "what is an attack vector relevant for this and what isn't"; all of a sudden on those you forget the boundaries the definition provides and go as wide as you can see, or so it …	[17:40]
diana_coman:	… looks.	[17:41]
diana_coman:	anyways, I need to go away from keyboard for now; I might be able to check in briefly in a few hours if that's of any help; in any case, I'll surely be back tomorrow.	[17:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: alright I've got stuff to chew on certainly.	[17:42]
dorion:	thanks diana_coman, take care.	[17:43]
jfw:	Not recalling quite where "offline wallet" was introduced as the term, "split wallet" is more correct, containing signer and node parts; I see the point on how switching implicitly to more formal terminology could confuse things unnecessarily.	[17:46]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: The reason as I read it is that for my failure to cover all the edges S.QNTR, like S.NSA has come to be a pile of dodecahedron, a thing in which there's no trade and for its isolation has it sitting outside of economic activity. It has no book value. Further, it has no value at market that could not, in principle, be swamped by some sort of demand of compensation for work done on my part. He ends the comment bidding me	[18:55]
BingoBoingo:	good luck, luck being a thing I, based on historical performance, could find for benefit or doom for my lack of controlling all the edges.	[18:55]
trinque:	jfw: it's a matter of how you build things, not what you want to build	[22:57]
trinque:	I want to build a moon base, but that want doesn't have fuck all to do with how.	[22:57]
trinque:	doesn't mean I can't have my damned moon base either. it means more or less nothing.	[22:58]
trinque:	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020881 << I say I'll be around to chat with y'all if diana_coman wishes.	[23:16]
snsabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 23:43:46 dorion: bvt, spyked, ave1, trinque, billymg I'm definitely curious to hear what each of you has to say.	[23:16]
trinque:	my time is limited, and I'm mostly allocated to getting my sad arse out of the gravity well I was born in.	[23:18]
trinque:	and my conceits being what they are, I'm not moving anywhere else without the scratch.	[23:19]
trinque:	but if you want to continue to carry the OS thread, happy to oblige.	[23:19]
trinque:	I'll write the 4th piece when y'all beat me out of my busybox-as-entire-userland position, or I yours	[23:20]
trinque:	unrelatedly, my wallet will continue to exist, and I wont wind it down without contacting the folks who have been using it.	[23:23]
trinque:	any jankiness with using the thing is just jankiness, not my having run off with the piggy.	[23:24]
dorion:	trinque the deeper question is, do you want to talk with us about it or at us ? there are questions from your last article still unanswered and our most recent exchange likewise.	[23:50]
dorion:	I have my own debts to pay for sure, but that's why I'm doing the public planning and review. to I improve my ability to work with people here.	[23:52]
trinque:	if "with" is me becoming convinced of your method of thinking, no.	[23:53]
trinque:	how old are you, dorion?	[23:54]
dorion:	I'm asking if you'll answer questions.	[23:54]
dorion:	30yo, yourself ?	[23:54]
trinque:	only a bit older	[23:54]
trinque:	so explain this "talking at" I've been doing	[23:55]
trinque:	I perceive myself to have been very clear so far, but I'll save that for next.	[23:55]
dorion:	you just came back with the "busybox-as-entire-userland", I asked before http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959496 , http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959498 , did you read those ?	[23:57]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-12 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959477 – what do you expect to run on what you're building ? trb ? or is it a bridge too far since isn't required to boot, edit and rebuild ?	[23:57]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-12 dorion: trinque ftr I very much appreciate what you're conveying in your series which is why I want to both talk about and see it continue. I'm not ignoring it, but I'm also not ignoring the mandate to support the implicit clients. how much are you taking the latter into consideration in what you're building ?	[23:57]
trinque:	yes, the question is ass-backwards.	[23:57]
trinque:	did you catch my line about the moon-base? what's unclear about it?	[23:57]
trinque:	understand, the history of the republic is a history of juvenile men following a polymath genius around, puffing up hubris to get him to talk to them.	[23:58]
trinque:	I am by now a walking autoimmune disorder to the stuff	[23:59]
dorion:	he said eulora was to be supported, should I have ignored ?	[23:59]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 12 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 7:18 pm

dorion:	just gave the latest article a second read. seems like he's saying, "you all could be men, but for whatever reason you're not and I've had enough of the retardation to interact with it further. perhaps me walking away is what's needed to wake you up."	[03:03]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-12 feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/closure/ << Trilema — Closure.	[03:03]
jfw:	To echo what I said in private: my read is further that it's not even our own failing : we're the hermit crabs that don't stand a chance because the environment is too poisoned; the vines after phyloxera; the sex after syphilis	[03:16]
dorion:	the deepest part of me doesn't want to accept that.	[03:18]
jfw:	dorion: sounds healthy to me. I'm not sure what to make of it as yet, gonna take time.	[03:31]
diana_coman:	dorion jfw the situation is what it is; what you make of it though, going further is your choice entirely	[05:14]
diana_coman:	and in that, there is no "don't stand a chance" that matters really	[05:15]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks. though it sucks, there's a lot to learn and I'm not giving up nor going away.	[05:18]
diana_coman:	fwiw and for as long as there is a use to it that I can see, I'll still be here.	[05:20]
diana_coman:	perhaps one way to see this is that here's a mighty wall, after all.	[05:20]
diana_coman:	will bbl	[05:28]
dorion:	diana_coman thanks, it's worth a lot and I'll endeavor to make it useful for you. I know it's been useful for me to date and it's my responsibility to outgrow the retardation that I let make it less useful then it could've been.	[05:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: is it clear what I'm saying there re test-run?	[14:09]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-12 diana_coman: jfw: listen, you do a full test-run of everything so that you can properly guide someone step by step and you know 200\% what is required and at what point.	[14:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: hmm I thought so: going through the exact process, ideally in a fresh environment, to make sure it works	[14:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: certainly in a fresh environment, taking note of what is required and what the concrete steps are; obv, you are talking to a literate (and computer literate too) person so you will adjust your guidance accordingly, but that comes after having done the test run fully so that you can pick any level of detail needed (and even adjust higher/lower on the fly, as/if needed)	[14:12]
diana_coman:	it's not just about "make sure it works" but also having in detail the explicit knowledge of what the process is in practice.	[14:15]
diana_coman:	there's a big gap between implicit ("I know I'm able to do it and it will work") and explicit ("here are the steps and I can tell you at which why and how and what are prerequisites + results & where to look if something goes wrong)	[14:16]
diana_coman:	at each*	[14:17]
jfw:	I see.	[14:18]
diana_coman:	but you see, stuff like this comes out of interactions only; and the fact that it was lacking betrays precisely "been working only alone and/or with close/same-mind friends"…	[14:18]
diana_coman:	I kind of have an inkling that if I attended one of those events in Panama, I'd be laughing a lot.	[14:19]
diana_coman:	anyways, I'll be back at 7pm as usual.	[14:20]
jfw:	here I thought it betrayed only v-sloppiness	[14:20]
jfw:	diana_coman: I may be thinking myself into knots here so I'll try to express. With the "explicit knowledge" point in mind, it occurs to me there's more trouble waiting than just V or even GNAT:	[16:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: not only v-sloppiness, no; because it's obviously not limited to that (it's not even all that clear that it can be limited that narrowly, ever)	[16:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: go ahead	[16:20]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: what's your plan re Qntra now?	[16:21]
jfw:	suppose MP says "how do I use this v.pl of yours, what is perl ?" Onto the previously assumed dependencies list it goes, and then, "what version / how do I get it"? To which I'd say, "idk, it was just the one on my machine, here's a link but no idea if/how it'll build in your environment"	[16:22]
jfw:	and I begin to see (more clearly) how S.MG ended up trying to capture ubuntu…	[16:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: you can have a list of pre-requisites, you know? just like you said e.g. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959149	[16:23]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-07 jfw: Can I assume you have an x86_64 unixlike with gcc for the install?	[16:23]
diana_coman:	but yes, that's basically the missing complete republican computer	[16:24]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-12 mp_en_viaje: jfw, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959149 << was this more a "can i assume you have a complete republican computer, as per the [not yet written, let alone become part of common culutre] recipe" ?	[16:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: fwiw, CS itself pretty much ends up an OS and for similar reasons, yes	[16:24]
jfw:	aha. I realize though that I have no idea what versions of perl v.pl works with (kinda doubt anyone else does either but maybe I should ask around?) so as to specify the prereq	[16:25]
jfw:	oh hey, it says in the v_quick_start.txt, how about that.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: the first step is to gather the list of what is needed, anyway; hm, I think for starters there was a list of pre-requisites (from trb perhaps?) and re v.pl I don't recall it having a problem on any perl version; you can say "tested on this and that", it's not the absurd "I can now point to the full list of versions of the software (and combinations since environment!!) and say on which it works and on which it doesn't"	[16:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, see?	[16:27]
diana_coman:	jfw: for that matter mod6 documented v.pl extremely well and it's that the reason I stuck with it (even though I am no fan of perl, at all)	[16:28]
diana_coman:	jfw: any further questions re that test-run/preparing?	[16:29]
jfw:	well, re gnat: I could tweak v.pl as whaack did to use keksum and avoid that whole dependency – except there's reasons it was used, the vdiff works better and such. Still vacillating on that.	[16:31]
jfw:	in question form: do you see a downside to my using keksum to bypass gnat for this application?	[16:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: heh, the trouble is really in how you use it ie …I can't answer that as stated really; on one hand, being able to drop gnat entirely can be a huge plus; otoh you are moving at the last minute from a known-to-work solution to an ad-hoc put-together so …	[16:34]
diana_coman:	jfw: sanely, you should talk to MP and agree on a deadline for next attempt really; then plan your way accordingly.	[16:34]
diana_coman:	and for that matter, if it were me, I'd probably have both options on the table.	[16:34]
jfw:	diana_coman: yeah that sounds much better than how I'm going about it.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	obv, you should have at least some idea as to what you can have ready by when	[16:35]
jfw:	also ack on the v.pl docs point and thanks mod6 for that.	[16:36]
diana_coman:	thanks are one thing, learning from it is even better :P	[16:36]
diana_coman:	moving on to the end of tmsr – hopefully it is clear that moving forwards is possible but not without significant changes, since it can't be "the same thing" by any definition	[16:41]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020643 – it makes sense it will take time indeed; it'll probably take less if there is some conversation	[16:43]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 03:31:32 jfw: dorion: sounds healthy to me. I'm not sure what to make of it as yet, gonna take time.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	and atm the silence on this is rather …loud.	[16:43]
jfw:	diana_coman: it's not clear to me yet what the forwards or changes might be, though perhaps this is so for everyone	[16:44]
jfw:	certainly clear it doesn't go forward as before.	[16:44]
diana_coman:	ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack – do you care to say your mind on this, at all?	[16:45]
dorion:	hi diana_coman	[16:45]
diana_coman:	hi there	[16:45]
dorion:	I don't know if this is being overly hard on myself, but I can help but think that the tmsr os article from yest and subsequent conversation with trinque was the straw that broke the camels' back resulting in the closure.	[16:45]
diana_coman:	dorion: I can set your mind at rest on that score – no, it was not.	[16:46]
dorion:	perhaps if it was published in december or januaury or even february in that state it'd have been a different story.	[16:46]
jfw:	diana_coman: what does going further refer to – simply the meaning I was taking from the text or what to do about it or what?	[16:46]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 05:14:56 diana_coman: dorion jfw the situation is what it is; what you make of it though, going further is your choice entirely	[16:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: and for starters, it's unclear if you are being too hard on yourself or too full of yourself to really think you broke the whole thing; but even beyond this, I'll tell you: no, it's not your doing as such.	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: what's the meaning you took from the text?	[16:47]
dorion:	diana_coman I said straw because I've inferred from what I've read that the chances of this happening have been increasing as time has passed.	[16:48]
jfw:	diana_coman: that MP was saying we don't stand a chance at (his definition of) being men because the toxic environment prevents it.	[16:49]
diana_coman:	dorion: the collection of evidence accumulates as time passes; what's that to do with it though?	[16:49]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I'm in on moving forward, and working the Qntra plan. I have today a very picky crawler that goes from a starting url to a targets list. Still have to work on the filters to catch more good commentable targets, but it is going. http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=6LPR	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: right; so for starters, what's your understanding of the "closure" anyway?	[16:50]
jfw:	That he's reached closure (except for the "maybe we'll see"s at the end) on the question of whether his envisioned republic is possible to build now	[16:52]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: that's not answering at all what's your plan for qntra; for one thing, may I remind you that you have a board for qntra and I'm not even on it, right? for the other, may I also remind you that Qntra is even now branded as ~"tmsr herald"- which is hardly a fit after tmsr, yes?	[16:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: ok, what was his envisioned republic?	[16:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: that, I don't have a good definition for.	[16:54]
dorion:	diana_coman I'm not sure what it has to do with it. my instinct is to look at what I could've done first and I know I could've done better even before registering with deedbot and talking and that's where I'm at now.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, what do you have for it? you know, you can't set reality on hold until you come up with definitions for it, it's not how things work in practice ever.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	dorion: yes, you could have certainly done better; not only you for that matter; and yes, it's worth learning from it ALL you can and fast, esp since it sucks that much that possibly you really don't want similar suck in the future; there is also the important fact that what you failed to do NEVER invalidates what you DID do well, despite a very common tendency to think/feel that way	[16:58]
dorion:	diana_coman my concept of the envisioned republic was independent agents that could/would implement the culture he's exhaustively made the case for being superior.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: yours?	[16:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: indeed. well, it focused on elitism, or rather, focused explicitly and honestly on that, rejecting socialist notions of human equality; it involved building relationships between capable people and strengthening them, based on strong cryptographic tools, and maintaining the tools to keep it working	[16:59]
dorion:	jfw what's your concept of elitism ?	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: do those include any of the horrific bits you mentioned?	[17:02]
diana_coman:	dorion: what is that culture to be implemented?	[17:02]
jfw:	the phrase "the lord can get away with bloody murder, though that doesn't mean it's not bloody or not murder" comes to mind	[17:02]
diana_coman:	jfw: why does that come to mind or how?	[17:03]
dorion:	diana_coman a blend of scholarship, trade where it makes sense, war when necessary (or desired), patriachy and harem.	[17:06]
dorion:	patriarchy*	[17:06]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Alright. At some point I'm going to have to talk to mircea_popescu to see what he wants to do with Qntra. Post-TMSR, I'm inclined to rebrand around an anti-socialist/anti-USG line. I want to keep working the plan for growth and continue using Qntra as a vehicle for WoT growth, and as a vehicle for myself to mature and break my dependence on ad-hoc'ing everything.	[17:07]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: well vehicle and all that, the question though is whether it's going to be a business or a hobby or what exactly?	[17:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020716 – btw, this footnote possibly sheds more light on this.	[17:11]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 16:58:11 diana_coman: dorion: yes, you could have certainly done better; not only you for that matter; and yes, it's worth learning from it ALL you can and fast, esp since it sucks that much that possibly you really don't want similar suck in the future; there is also the important fact that what you failed to do NEVER invalidates what you DID do well, despite a very common tendency to think/feel that way	[17:11]
jfw:	dorion: elitism means orienting toward / focusing resources on the most capable few in a group	[17:11]
diana_coman:	dorion: one important bit in there is that nobody just "implements" a culture like that; it's never the case that anything works by means of applying a set of recipes to whatever is out there.	[17:13]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I am inclined to pursue it as a business, if possible. I want to make this thing live and make the changes to myself and my tools necessary for that to happen.	[17:14]
diana_coman:	the trouble with that enforce this and make the problems go away is that the very core aka the approach itself is nonsense, not that one set of rules/recipes are worse than another.	[17:15]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-10-16 17:15:07 dorion: he doesn't exactly live in reality. he lives in a fantasy, in part, that if the US consitution were enforced usia's problems would in large part be resolved.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	(well, some can be argued to be worse than others too, sure, but that's not all that significant compared to the deeper and bigger problem)	[17:15]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: it's not a matter of inclination but one of decisive action (to say perhaps more than decision+action); and one that requires a certain approach + resources; at any rate, if you want to make it a business, you are certainly best off retaining MP as manager if at all possible; and so perhaps start from making sure that is possible, I have no idea.	[17:17]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020680 << I mean, if the Republic is to actually stand the test of time then it will need to be able to stand sans-MP. I wish he weren't closing up shop of course, but that's his call. The man sure gave a lot of himself and his experience (for free, I might add) for almost a decade and not too much came of it. I can understand his decision.	[17:17]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 19:35:19 diana_coman: ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack – do you care to say your mind on this, at all?	[17:17]
lobbes:	Only thing to do now is the same thing we did yesterday: keep trying to do meaningful work so that actual humans can continue to find and work with other actual humans. Maybe we do good and he returns, but in any case our path is the same	[17:17]
lobbes:	anyways, I've been glued to the logs/blogs most of today. I need a break. I'll be back later tonight most likely to get that final historical dump ready for MP	[17:18]
diana_coman:	lobbes: do you mean the republic without mp?	[17:18]
diana_coman:	lobbes: at the grass roots life goes on the same, sure.	[17:19]
diana_coman:	at any rate, laters, no worries.	[17:19]
lobbes:	diana_coman: well, we'd need single authority yeah. Definitely can't end up like the cat-v channels of the world sure	[17:20]
lobbes:	or whatever that chan was called	[17:20]
lobbes:	I just meant more like http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936229	[17:20]
ericbot:	(trilema) 2019-09-14 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936160 << verily. Furthermore, the inescapable truth is that one day mircea_popescu will shuffle off this mortal coil. Why anyone would not want to eat as much of his brain while he is around is completely unfathomable to me, especially since he is willingly offering it to eat! The Republic will one day need to stand on its own feet and produce	[17:20]
diana_coman:	lobbes: it's deeper than that even.	[17:20]
lobbes:	well, I'll continue to follow diana_coman at any rate	[17:21]
diana_coman:	well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".	[17:22]
lobbes:	yeah, I see what you mean. If we couldn't stand with MP how are we to stand without	[17:22]
jfw:	it would be like saying "well MP concluded it didn't work, and we thought he knew things, but this time we're sure he's wrong so we'll try anyway" right?	[17:23]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020729 – jfw , quite a significant part of the closure is precisely the conclusion that …no, there aren't really anymore such people in the world, nor likely there will be as such.	[17:23]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:10:06 jfw: diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.	[17:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's not even about saying that though I can see how/why you could package it that way.	[17:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: the raep and pillage is authorized by committee exclusively now?	[17:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: lolz, no	[17:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: but you touch on the point in that you got in there the "authorized"already	[17:25]
jfw:	ah, "nobody meant it, it just sorta happened"?	[17:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: does it seem to you happening as in focused/aimed/meaningful somewhere?	[17:26]
diana_coman:	you do realise that there's a difference between that madman ringing at your door and your earlier lord who can get away with bloody murder	[17:27]
diana_coman:	right?	[17:27]
diana_coman:	nobody said that madness is extinct or something, sure	[17:27]
dorion:	ttp://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020733 – how does culture come to be ? is that even the right question ?	[17:29]
jfw:	diana_coman: the madman is a figurative device isn't he? to illustrate the silliness of certain worries.	[17:30]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020733	[17:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:13:21 diana_coman: dorion: one important bit in there is that nobody just "implements" a culture like that; it's never the case that anything works by means of applying a set of recipes to whatever is out there.	[17:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, there are also mad people in the world and at times you can literally meet them, right? not like it didn't or can't happen.	[17:31]
jfw:	whereas, GW Bush and friends got away with war crimes no problem, probably believed their own narratives too	[17:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: it's certainly a better question indeed.	[17:31]
jfw:	diana_coman: sure, and I'd agree a raving madman is not a lord irrespective of whether he happens to carry bloody axe	[17:33]
diana_coman:	dorion: in short, culture is essentially a sum-result; sure, it can be transmitted but within the environment that grew it basically, not transplanted (and the transplating approach has been tried over and over again with the same fail each and every time)	[17:36]
diana_coman:	transplanting* (though trans-splatting might give some idea as to how it works in practice, lolz)	[17:38]
diana_coman:	ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020729a – note also that what it includes is anyway indicative of the lord's limitations rather than of "what he can get away with"	[17:43]
diana_coman:	not sure what do you get exactly out of that because the way you say it, it doesn't seem to be something you are all that clear on.	[17:43]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case… what happens depends on what he wants and it sounds at present	[17:45]
BingoBoingo:	what he want is out.	[17:45]
dorion:	diana_coman does it then follow that mp was running an experiment to test the environment and understand to whom his culture / mode of being could be transmitted to ? any the closure is, "as far as I can tell, there's no one out there. and to those I'd been attempting to transmit to I've realized they came from an environment which retards them such that they'll die prior to having a chance to	[17:46]
dorion:	grow the culture I'm transmitting."	[17:46]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020706 – tying this back in (because it does tie back in and we only took the detour to have it all in sight precisely to be able finally to put it together): jfw, do you understand MP's definition of man and do you actually want to fully fit that?	[17:47]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 16:49:57 jfw: diana_coman: that MP was saying we don't stand a chance at (his definition of) being men because the toxic environment prevents it.	[17:47]
diana_coman:	dorion: I guess it would help you to have a think at the question above ^ too	[17:49]
diana_coman:	key words in the question above being fully fit	[17:49]
diana_coman:	and note that the point is to look exactly at what is; there's no "should be/should not be" answer there.	[17:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: you're right that I'm not all that clear on http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020729 , and I'm pretty sure I don't understand his definition and so do not know whether I want to fully fit it.	[17:51]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:10:06 jfw: diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.	[17:51]
diana_coman:	if the answer given there matches reality, regardless of which of the two possible answers it is, you can go ahead and build on it and you stand a chance to succeed at the direction thus chosen precisely because it fits reality; if however the answer given does not match, you'll go the way that is ~guaranteed to result in failure as it's hallucinated rather than real.	[17:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, the full definition might not even be needed, since the "fully fit" hard test comes with the convenience of being very easy to reject at least; so take some of the most uneasy/horrifying parts and check first on those.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020778 – that may very well be; understand that as long as you can't find any sort of drive of your own and no focus on what you can control as opposed to what you can't, you won't be able to run a business because how and on what is it exactly supposed to run? on its own power and drive, are you aiming to prove yet again that perpetuum mobile can somehow be made or what?	[18:02]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 17:45:27 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case… what happens depends on what he wants and it sounds at present	[18:02]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: it's not about "mp will let me" ffs; for that matter, do you have the impression that he's either a toddler who just wants to throw toys out of the pram or an idiot who makes decisions randomly and therefore can't be convinced of anything, or what?	[18:04]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion did I block you there?	[18:05]
jfw:	diana_coman: dorion just called to say his power went out, and he acks the question & is thinking on it.	[18:05]
diana_coman:	ah, ok	[18:05]
jfw:	I seem a bit blocked though, heh.	[18:06]
diana_coman:	well, the tough questions that need to be asked & answered though; such is the very meaning of significant changes, after all.	[18:07]
jfw:	diana_coman: do you know his definition of man or have references on it? I have a notion it's something I know but part of me doesn't want to see. Then again, half the stuff I said in this thread came back "that's not it" so… not feeling too confident.	[18:11]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I do not have that impression of him. He is very clearly taking a reasoned approach to his withdrawal. I have to admit, what has gotten me into trouble is trying to predict where reason will lead him when I am so far behind.	[18:11]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: why the fuck would you focus on prediction of other peoples' reasoning instead of focusing on what you are trying to do, ffs	[18:12]
diana_coman:	ofc it will backfire and not even because of "so far behind" but precisely because of being an idiotic approach to start with; it IS the very essence of exam-taking after all.	[18:14]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I've learned that and now find myself unfamiliar with the alternative.	[18:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: so take him as best example (and well documented, at that) of his definition, what's wrong with that?	[18:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: and take some of the more "outrageous" acts, whichever seem that way to you.	[18:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: the reason I'm not providing you with "the definition" is that I doubt it will be any help if the detailed, documented and interacted-with live example can't help.	[18:17]
diana_coman:	jfw: dunno, beating women?	[18:19]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: are you telling me that 30+ years you practiced ~exclusively the…prediction mode?	[18:20]
diana_coman:	is ready to believe that, if stated.	[18:21]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Nearly exclusively.	[18:21]
whaack:	diana_coman: It's a lot to digest upon return to my terminal, especially while standing on thin ice. I am not fully caught up on the logs that lead to MP's decision. Anyways, here are my first thoughts: My understanding is that evidence MP has collected over the years has led him to conclude that the potential of tmsr is too low to be worth his time. This means that everyone who interacted in #t	[18:21]
whaack:	has lost a valuable resource, and whatever is built in the ruins of tmsr will only be a fraction of what-could-have-been. As far as I can tell, building that fraction of tmsr is still worth doing. I plan to continue to work under you as before, provided I am able to make that worth your time.	[18:21]
jfw:	diana_coman: if beating's consensual I don't see a problem, but it doesn't really appeal to me. Then again it also seems used metaphorically as giving appropriate correction, which I would wish to emulate.	[18:21]
jfw:	Also I like & respect the living interacted example, or I wouldn't have taken him up on the veuve cliquot invite. But then there's http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-be-a-pimp-the-simple-comprehensible-and-exhaustive-guide/?b=So\%20then.&e=:#select for example (and he sez all the stories are true!)	[18:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: the question is not that; the question is quite simple though admiteddly difficult to answer without actual practice: can you do X? (and note that no, can do does not mean one will always do it but it does mean that one has the option to do it and exercises a choice each time when does/doesn't do it)	[18:24]
diana_coman:	a consensual beating as in what, a signed statement/recorded message/what exactly?	[18:25]
diana_coman:	whaack: what's the "thin ice"?	[18:25]
whaack:	diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019854	[18:26]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 04:34:08 diana_coman: whaack: if I end up asking you a question about the point of the previous question that was on why an even earlier question was needed, I'll just as soon go get my key and negrate, save some time; seriously now, do you want to do something or do you enjoy my conversation only?	[18:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: and appeal has nothing to do with it really; again, not like being able to do something means you have to do it all the time or even frequently or whatever.	[18:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: now I wonder if you even glimpsed anywhere near how much there is to the example in terms of "can & did", huh.	[18:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: consensual as in, i dunno, free to go as he indeed says his women are, not trying to be the state of california here lol	[18:29]
jfw:	I think I start to see what you're getting at though	[18:31]
dorion:	is plugged in at friends office and catching up	[18:31]
jfw:	(that's confident-jfw right there huh!)	[18:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: but what, literally blackouts in panama now?	[18:32]
jfw:	transformers seem to blow from time to time indeed.	[18:32]
jfw:	they get fixed, like my stuff apparently, once on fire	[18:33]
dorion:	diana_coman not sure exactly. there was a truck on my block, but I didn't stop to ask.	[18:34]
diana_coman:	ah, it's not the old-ro-commie version of industry-first but the more modern version of maintenance-what-maintenance?	[18:34]
diana_coman:	dorion: no worries, I just didn't have any idea those happened there, that's all.	[18:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: I don't know what the industry-first was like but that sounds about right.	[18:35]
jfw:	oh I see waht you mean, factories taking priority over residences and such.	[18:36]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes, that's exactly what it was; my hometown is/was an industrial town (petrol refineries, plural as in 4+) so lots of experience with residences being disconnected because unimportant.	[18:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: getting back to the "fully fit", how about this?	[18:43]
dorion:	diana_coman re fully fit to his definition of man, while I'm not ready to given what the definition is, the "horrifying" parts don't scare me and in fact seem to resonate with the younger version of me that was poisoned by usia.	[18:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: each picks their own "horrifying" – are there any horrifying for you?	[18:48]
dorion:	diana_coman not that come to mind now and to the extent there were, confronting them made me stronger.	[18:50]
BingoBoingo:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020808 << Upon reflection I can't recall any clear exceptions in 30+ years. Growing up it seemed to work, and when it stopped working, I never managed to replace it. I'd just been trying to tweak the prediction approach without ever actually trying anything else.	[18:50]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 18:20:45 diana_coman: BingoBoingo: are you telling me that 30+ years you practiced ~exclusively the…prediction mode?	[18:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: still working on le cercle rouge, but – this kind of can & did are you talking about?	[18:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's surely one sort of can&did, yes; not the only sort, but works as one example, certainly.	[18:54]
jfw:	or – apparently I'm starting to have fun with the horrors – there's the HLP still afaik in the "can" category; or http://trilema.com/2016/how-i-convinced-some-jailbirds-im-more-demented-than-they-could-ever-hope-to-be/ reportedly in the "did"	[18:56]
diana_coman:	dorion: well, resonate is one thing, esp when with past version of self; the question is -and can only be- re current & future.	[18:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: there's fun in everything!	[18:57]
dorion:	diana_coman before it gets too late today, jfw and I haven't talked about it yet, but I would prefer to continue with "tmsr os" rather than pile on what he's done with gales. what are your thoughts ?	[18:57]
diana_coman:	dorion: what does it mean "to continue with tmsr os"?	[18:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mikado/There_is_beauty_in_the_bellow_of_the_blast	[19:00]
dorion:	it means to continue to find people to commit to owning the parts under V to support the implicit clients established on schedules.	[19:00]
diana_coman:	dorion: to the extent that you want to do that, it can be, why not; but do realise that there's as always a whole context to it and as such, it will still need some re-think and some discussion and some wider planning.	[19:01]
dorion:	diana_coman right and won't be a continuation of what was with mp.	[19:02]
diana_coman:	dorion: indeed, not quite the same thing, since the tmsr- part of it is no more as such.	[19:03]
dorion:	diana_coman will s.mg be continuing eulora ?	[19:04]
diana_coman:	but this is part of what I was saying at the very start today, that what you make of it moving forwards is entirely your choice.	[19:04]
diana_coman:	dorion: yes, s.mg is a business on mpex, so why wouldn't it?	[19:05]
diana_coman:	and eulora is the flagship game, not a tmsr-something anyway	[19:05]
dorion:	diana_coman I expected it would, but would rather ask plainly.	[19:05]
diana_coman:	dorion: sure; and as you very well know, questions are better asked, yes.	[19:06]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020844 – I think so, but I accept I have to prove it to myself to understand it can.	[19:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 18:57:17 diana_coman: dorion: well, resonate is one thing, esp when with past version of self; the question is -and can only be- re current & future.	[19:06]
dorion:	diana_coman, do you think that's ^^^ an unneccessary hedge in my speech that's holding me back ?	[19:12]
diana_coman:	dorion: I can't quite tell as such; it can be either that or exactly true as stated; it will take some time to tell.	[19:15]
diana_coman:	dorion: one thing to get fully at this point though is that nothing good will happen in a hurry	[19:16]
diana_coman:	despite what it might seem, it's not an emergency.	[19:16]
dorion:	diana_coman ok, thank you. I think I can patient.	[19:17]
dorion:	be patient	[19:18]
diana_coman:	it's way past that point in a sense so there is now at least the obligation (and luxury, all in one) of taking the time to figure out what is and moreover what lasts past the initial rush.	[19:18]
jfw:	diana_coman: so with http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-12-Mar-2020#1020835 does the fitting mean: to be the sort who's willing to hunt or be hunted down to the death?	[19:22]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-12 18:43:16 diana_coman: jfw: getting back to the "fully fit", how about this?	[19:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: among other things, yes; for starters even to be one even not all that concerned about dieing; not in the suicidal sense but in the very simple sense that "if it gets there, so be it"	[19:24]
jfw:	aha, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959141 I was just recounting over dinner last night.	[19:25]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-07 mp_en_viaje: for as long as you live, your death does not exist, and therefore is no concern of yours; once your death exists or whatever actualizes itself there's necessarily nobody any longer there to fret about it.	[19:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: it's a very…practical thing, let's say; because how/whether you are concerned or not does decide in the end what you do and esp what you don't do.	[19:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: if you want, it's yet another version of that "get over yourself" – funnily enough getting over yourself is actually …helping precisely yourself.	[19:30]
BingoBoingo:	eating this food for the thinking.	[19:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: it sure does decide.	[19:38]
jfw:	diana_coman: thanks much for the conversation today. My brain is about cooked and needs a proper break for now.	[19:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure; and as previously said – there is time that has to be taken properly, none of this will get sorted in a day.	[19:42]
BingoBoingo:	to put some news on Qntra, get back into regex to make the crawler less picky, and look for the defensible lines	[19:47]

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#ossasepia Logs for 11 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 7:08 pm

diana_coman:	waves	[16:08]
jfw:	o hai thar	[16:18]
diana_coman:	jfw dorion do I take it correctly that today was some emergency-tmsr-os-day?	[16:21]
jfw:	so no shiny introduction article yet, but the bigger 2 of my 3 components genesised at http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/ : gscm and gbw-signer	[16:21]
diana_coman:	jfw: is article planned for today too?	[16:21]
jfw:	diana_coman: tonight	[16:22]
jfw:	still on the fire engine atm.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: what do you mean by "user-level" ? (from "ignum.scm: A user-level unsigned bignum arithmetic library")	[16:22]
jfw:	re OS, for my part I was just responding, no emergency	[16:23]
jfw:	diana_coman: implemented in the normal 'user' level of the language as opposed to interpreter internals	[16:23]
diana_coman:	ah, I see (and no, I didn't think of that at all, lolz).	[16:25]
jfw:	I later added such an internal implementation; but it was still lacking some of the necessary details like shift operations, so, sadly two numeric stacks currently (not that they're all that big).	[16:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it will most likely remain like that unless something is terribly wrong and it starts burning, I guess.	[16:29]
dorion:	hi diana_coman, not emergency. yesterday I had followed up with trinque since a ~week had passed his estimated publish schedule for next article, then followed his response from there.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	dorion: cool then; and huh, I thought it has been way more than a week on that tbh but possibly I'm not all that up to date with all the pushes of that schedule.	[16:31]
dorion:	diana_coman it has, but since his latest estimate.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: is that tmsr os page stuck/finished/where?	[16:35]
jfw:	diana_coman: well, nothing seemed to be burning when I started on this stuff; and weren't you shocked (or "shocked") at my leisurely coding approach of trying this and that and seeing which goes best? Though I can see where the two are directly related.	[16:35]
diana_coman:	dependencies* page	[16:35]
dorion:	diana_coman current and last step for this draft is going through your previously supplied list	[16:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-04 16:44:58 diana_coman: whaack: since my list of to-write is long and only getting longer and otherwise on centos I just ported the darned client to gnat anyway, here's a raw paste of notes with packages for corresponding CS stuff, from when I was simply mapping what fits what (ie see what is really needed, perhaps not all of them are): http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=KogY	[16:42]
jfw:	diana_coman: I can't say you're wrong though at least as things seem to be now.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: sure; anyway, my shock or lack of it can only do stuff for me, not much for anyone else, for better or for worse.	[16:42]
diana_coman:	jfw: for that matter, since I never got around to even ask such totally unexpected question – didn't you ever find other actual people to program with?	[16:43]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok, thanks for the update.	[16:44]
dorion:	diana_coman are there dependencies for the eulora server that are not publically documented ?	[16:45]
jfw:	diana_coman: there was the coinapult cto with whom I collaborated briefly, but that didn't work out, or I suppose I wasn't buying into his vision and approach enough to make it work.	[16:46]
dorion:	hm, not sure if that question is clear.	[16:46]
jfw:	(though perhaps "actual people" is the key word there…)	[16:47]
diana_coman:	dorion: other than what the client needs, it would be only mysql really for the server; on the server the list of deps is to be smaller anyway.	[16:48]
dorion:	diana_coman ok, cool, thanks.	[16:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's the key word indeed; but now you answered it like that – do I take it that the coinapult situation was anyway the only time when you even attempted as such to work on programming with someone else at all?	[16:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: in college there were some pair or small group projects, and I did one extracurricular doing game dev projects. Haven't sought it out since though.	[16:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: why not?	[16:53]
jfw:	diana_coman: I enjoyed it on my own, the going at my own pace and not having to coordinate. Maybe I didn't have a useful way of going about it.	[16:56]
jfw:	Probably combined with a certain degree of reclusivity or unease with meeting new people generally.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, the good parts are always enjoyable, sure; the only question is -as always- re the not-good parts; whether you even considered them to start with and whether they were/are indeed what you want or not, that's pretty much all there can ever possibly be from a practical point of view.	[16:59]
dorion:	jfw from what you told me, part of what motivated you to move to Panama and do more part time work with prev employer was to have the space to develop your own skills. from my understanding the coinapult thing worked less from 'management' perspective than technical. then with brokerage there was the bias of nothing extant is secure enough, which was a big motivator for gales linux/scheme to come	[17:06]
dorion:	to be (apart from the intrinsic enjoyment).	[17:06]
dorion:	plus the junto seems to have provided you your fill of meeting new people for now.	[17:06]
jfw:	diana_coman: well, I don't suppose I considered it all that deeply since I struggle now to recall reasons.	[17:07]
jfw:	being in panama isn't too conducive to meeting top programming talent, too; better for other things	[17:09]
diana_coman:	dorion: is the junto open doors/changing people all that frequently? I thought it was more of a relatively stable group of friends meeting.	[17:09]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, first of all I'd struggle to quite define "top programming talent" and second I have serious doubts I totally want to meet those from what I have know/met already, lolz.	[17:10]
dorion:	diana_coman it has fluctuated, but now it's more stable.	[17:10]
jfw:	diana_coman: maybe we can start the definition at knowing more than JS? lol	[17:11]
diana_coman:	jfw: anyways, I'm asking those questions because it doesn't seem that they got ever asked and I think the answers matter to you; but other than that, it's not really that I need the answers or anything of the sort, so I'm not even going to chase this or anything.	[17:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, is that a talent?	[17:12]
jfw:	sure you can teach someone, but that's a bit different from collaborating on a project that pushes the progrmaming skills of both, no? (which as Robinson says was my own goal)	[17:12]
diana_coman:	"is that a talent" refers to "knowing more than JS"	[17:13]
jfw:	"skill" or "knowledge" then?	[17:14]
jfw:	diana_coman: and yeah, not really been asked of me in a while so thanks for raising the questions.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: useful collaboration pushes all parties for growth really, otherwise if it's all that narrow it's possibly a training machine rather than a collaboration; and for that matter you have been collaborating with dorion , obviously.	[17:15]
jfw:	indeed	[17:16]
BingoBoingo:	had the morning's errands degrade into another series of fetch quests seeking magic papers. Along the way got vacinated for Measles, Mumps, German measles, Tetanus, and Diptheria.	[21:30]

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#ossasepia Logs for 10 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:58 pm

dorion:	BingoBoingo, http://trilema.com/2017/remember-the-security-hole-automattic-refused-to-fix-back-in-2014?b=that.\%20Well..&e=able#select isn't selecting for me.	[03:23]
dorion:	could also add a link for Eulora, but other than that looks good.	[03:26]
diana_coman:	what a great #o log to start the day to! BingoBoingo draft looks good, I'd probably just add a comma after "to take shape"; and congrats to jfw on a straight-to-the-point quote!	[04:45]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: dorion is right though, that #select is borked	[04:47]
BingoBoingo:	tyvm	[11:12]
jfw:	thanks diana_coman, and BingoBoingo for the asking & article.	[12:54]
jfw:	BingoBoingo, next time you're on YH check the category on your March 9-15 plan	[16:17]
diana_coman:	seriously, BingoBoingo, you should also fix once and for all your proofreading process re qntra as I think there's almost ~always some typos making it in.	[16:18]
diana_coman:	while yes, can live with it, it's still both ugly and unnecessary really	[16:18]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you, I'll work on a fix for it.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: to expand on http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/jfw-review-week-of-2-mar-2020/#comment-560 – your priorities for this week are easy to pick /quite clear so I suspect you'd have done exactly what you say whether explicitly set out or not; and the clarity there comes really from what you perceive to be at stake, which is just another way of saying …firefighting really	[16:23]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: ok but how /what exactly do you have in mind?	[16:23]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I'm thinking a checklist at the moment, but I'm very open to suggestions.	[16:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: to the extreme I suppose you can even simply use that approach on purpose ie make sure you have high stakes on precisely what you are aiming for otherwise but it sounds rather stressful/not all that healthy to me.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: well, what have you been doing so far and why/where is it not working?	[16:26]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Well, so far I'm been stopping to read the pieces before publishing and trying to spot mistakes with my own eyes. On submitted links I do follow them, and read them as part of the fact checking though I don't much follow my own links.	[16:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: first part makes sense, I might have to revisit the firefighting part.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: uhm, why would the proofreading process be different for your pieces vs someone else's anyway? it doesn't seem to be worth making the difference at proofreading stage	[16:29]
diana_coman:	I understand the difference at editing stage, sure but proofreading is the same check for everyone really	[16:30]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Right, the proofreading process ought to be the same.	[16:30]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: do you spot mistakes at times after publishing?	[16:31]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: On occasion	[16:31]
diana_coman:	dorion: for that matter this proofreading thing is something you really need to get the hang of, too; iirc I suggested already you use a spellchecker since it seems you really need one, but – are you using it?	[16:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-01-13 15:58:35 diana_coman: dorion: why so…hm, fitful (and do use a spellchecker or something!); and give the guy first some time to react at all, first step is a more relaxed hi in and then depending on reaction, it moves forward one way or another; also, did you check with trinque as he was saying iirc he'll contact this guy, did he get around to contact him?	[16:32]
BingoBoingo:	probably ought to break down and start using a spell checker as well.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: well, if it's only on occasion, you clearly just don't focus on that level of detail enough; so for starters and as it's meant to be published, I guess you need a spell checker – not to rely on it but as a safety net you require currently	[16:34]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: the alternative is really to force your slowdown but it doesn't sound like the sort of think to focus on atm, there are plenty others way more important so use the spell checker you need, make sure you read slowly and literally word by word; at this stage you don't even want to focus on the meaning but on the spelling.	[16:36]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Alright, I'll get one set up.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: how are those scripts/crawler/filters coming up? when is your eta for something concrete out of them?	[16:38]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I should have some filters in presentable condition Thursday afternoon or evening. Eating the regex way of seeing the world is taking some time, but it's coming together.	[16:40]
BingoBoingo:	Particularly "." as a metacharacter	[16:41]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: more than filters it would be some data that I'd like to see, lol	[16:41]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: oh, huh; why /what's tripping about .?	[16:42]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It's a sort of wildcard in the regex, but it's also what all these .xyz file extension I want to cull start with.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: special characters are simply escaped, no?	[16:46]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: hm, I can share a textbook-style regexp reference I wrote, one sec.	[16:47]
diana_coman:	ie if you want the character they represent rather than their interpretation in whatever context	[16:47]
diana_coman:	jfw: you know, why didn't you publish that on your blog?	[16:49]
jfw:	It predated blog. http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/regexp-ref.html	[16:50]
BingoBoingo:	In some contexts I want the character they represent. In other contexts I want that kind of wildcard.	[16:50]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: tyvm	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes,yes but on all those days when "could not write anything!!!"	[16:50]
jfw:	haha	[16:51]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: of course; but so your problem is that you are not used to keeping different contexts in mind or what?	[16:51]
diana_coman:	jfw: :P	[16:51]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: In this way it's rather new to my head.	[16:53]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: it's just a different …context for the notion of context. Same letters mean different things depending on the quotes!	[16:55]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 21:52:00 BingoBoingo: There's probably a better way to do it, and it may not be necessary, but if the listing comes from you it… has greater authority than if I'd typed out the exact same sequence of letters.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	quite; recursive contextualization ftw!	[16:57]
jfw:	Come to think of it, that regexp ref is more qntra-style than textbook-style.	[17:03]
diana_coman:	it's more of a brief ref than textbook, yes.	[17:05]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 09 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:48 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/ejb-review-of-mar-2-mar-8-plan-for-mar-9-mar-15/ << Young Hands Club — ejb review of Mar 2-Mar 8 ; plan for Mar 9-Mar 15	[00:39]
jfw:	flails, still going on review writeup	[03:15]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/jfw-review-week-of-2-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 2 Mar. 2020	[04:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: lolz, illustrating how homework is to be done? :D	[04:39]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: framing and links are a good addition indeed.	[04:44]
diana_coman:	in other boring statements of the obvious, I shall inform log readers that the whole point of a review is to find out what worked (so you can keep doing it), what didn't (so you stop doing it) and what is somewhere in between (so you improve on it).	[05:04]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/jfw-plan-week-of-9-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 9 Mar. 2020	[05:05]
jfw:	I've no retort diana_coman, laugh away. Adding that boring statement of the obvious to my (somewhat neglected) quotes file.	[05:10]
diana_coman:	as far as I can see I answered everyone that actually used younghands.club today and I even have time to spare, huh; (if I missed anyone/anything, please ping me!)	[05:30]
diana_coman:	I guess I can use the unexpected extra free time for practicing chopping laurels and meditating on their fragrant remains.	[05:32]
spyked:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019868 <– ftr, I've been using ledger 2.6.2 for a while and it's still a monster (cca 18k lines of C++), but probably smaller than 3.x and iirc it doesn't depend on boost	[08:38]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 15:20:56 diana_coman: jfw dorion re clock & ledger – did you genesis them both properly then? because esp the ledger thing, when I just had a look at it earlier today, it's a monster; perhaps you still have at least some less-of-a-monstrosity version?	[08:38]
spyked:	anyway, the clock program looks really neat on a first glance, I'm tempted to give it a try	[08:42]
diana_coman:	spyked: well, no boost dep is certainly a gain; and yeah, I'm sure that the earlier the version the less of a monster it is; that being said, I'm either really getting old or something but I can hardly see the point of >10k LOC for what can be done precisely as wanted through <1k lines of cmd line tools, huh.	[08:43]
diana_coman:	nevertheless, if it's indeed in use and useful, a genesis should be made; and possibly from there it might get trimmed in time.	[08:43]
diana_coman:	ftr re clock, my scripts don't bother with "end of task" – there's no end to anything, only start of next thing whether that's break or whatever; since time is spent anyway, the start of a new thing is by definition the end of the previous.	[08:45]
spyked:	re. size, that's a very good point. I haven't looked deeper tbh, I switched to it from gnucash, which was even bigger, it came with a whole array of gui 'features' that I never used	[08:46]
diana_coman:	spyked: ah, certainly; and yeah, years ago I used gnucash so I know what you're saying there; and again, the idea of ledger is great as far as I can see, right on target; if only there was anyone in there actually stubbornly keeping to precisely that, rather than blindly going with the flow of "adding contributions" and whatnots; such are the sad stories of software over the last 2 decades.	[08:48]
spyked:	hm. I think that if anything, the data format (plain-text list of transactions) is worth preserving. the pile of code… not so sure, but either way, I agree it's worth examining if it's useful spending >10k LoC on the processing.	[08:52]
diana_coman:	spyked: sure re plain-text, no argument at all there.	[08:54]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you, the context for the plan missing for folks who hadn't been following the conversation had been gnawing at me a bit so it seemed like a necessary addition despite everything else stabilizing in the plan..	[11:46]
BingoBoingo:	will get to the YH comments, but first today there's a lot of fiatist blood on the market floors.	[11:46]
diana_coman:	no rush re comments from my point of view, for sure.	[12:02]
dorion:	diana_coman here's the email thread with the refind guy. he went silent after my reply there. I've followed up with him once since.	[15:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: so what's your take on it?	[16:17]
dorion:	diana_coman well, I tried to balance giving him context without inundating him with info.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	dorion: sure, the exchange looks ok to me; at most clearly super-friendly on your side.	[16:20]
dorion:	I could've cut out the V stuff and kept it to joining #trilema.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	dorion: the q "what's your take on it" is re conclusion to this since you can't wait for him indefinitely or something.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	dorion: neah, you did nothing bad/wrong there.	[16:22]
diana_coman:	tbh to me it looks pretty much langyel-style anyway ie he wants to "answer your questions" and nothing more really, he's happy where he is and there's nothing else of any interest.	[16:24]
dorion:	diana_coman right. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-14-Jan-2020#1015230	[16:25]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-01-14 21:57:38 trinque: if he works at canonical, I'm somewhat skeptical he'll align himself with burning down the world, but who knows.	[16:25]
diana_coman:	the reason why I asked you though is that you should decide one way or another on it and set it explicitly in that report – ie tried & even followed up once more, nothing useful coming out of it though, end of it.	[16:25]
dorion:	diana_coman in my mind there's space to strike the guy out and not his code. i.e. someone could take ownership of it, like musl.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	dorion: heh, right; still, the attempt in itself is useful because now you have a concrete result to point to rather than "what I think it might be"; this is after all the crucial difference, between "did and here's the result" vs "thought it will likely go so and ugh, maybe…"	[16:27]
dorion:	right, I see.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	dorion: sure, so state that conclusion there at your tmsr os statement, that's all.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	you're the manager there so that's precisely the sort of decision you need to make anyway.	[16:29]
dorion:	diana_coman ok.	[16:29]
diana_coman:	dorion: re that follow up stuff on musl list – do you mean follow up with them? what are you aiming for – ie something you want stated on their board/list/whatever or what?	[16:30]
dorion:	diana_coman reinforce what jfw said, pour some sal in the wounds he left unsalted and make it clear that we're forking it.	[16:32]
dorion:	salt*	[16:33]
dorion:	diana_coman I just gotta do it.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	dorion: nothing wrong with that if you want it done, sure.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	as long as you don't entertain any misplaced expectations re their response, the rest is entirely fine.	[16:36]
dorion:	right, it's more on the pick fights for exposure front as a means to grow contributors.	[16:37]
diana_coman:	dorion: not a bad idea at that	[16:38]
dorion:	those who have ears to hear will ear	[16:38]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: do you have any qntra link for dorion to link there?	[16:38]
jfw:	dorion: maybe take care with the grammar & spelling with that, otherwise who comes off as the pot calling the kettle illiterate in the minds of who might be on the fence?	[16:39]
diana_coman:	dorion: apparently hearing ears are in very short supply but again, if you don't try, you can't know if there are any in the audience anyway.	[16:39]
diana_coman:	notices that jfw offered to spellcheck dorion's message before posting :D	[16:39]
jfw:	sure, better than doing it after!	[16:40]
dorion:	jfw will do.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: the minds that discard the message because of less than perfect spelling though might be better off enjoying their fence.	[16:41]
dorion:	jfw you subscribe to it first so you can then reply ? is that how it works ?	[16:42]
jfw:	dorion, I don't recall if you have to be subscribed, though I am	[16:43]
jfw:	diana_coman: projecting my own annoyances with modern sloppiness perhaps.	[16:44]
jfw:	dorion: "You can also mail the list without subscribing by sending email to musl #T lists.openwall.com, but messages from non-members may be held for moderator approval."	[16:46]
jfw:	( http://musl.libc.org/support.html )	[16:47]
dorion:	jfw thanks, was looking just on the openwall site, thanks and subscribed.	[16:48]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, it certainly can't hurt to make it error-free and moreover, certainly better to not leave them that easy option to "disregard", sure; just not much to do with any on the fence, that's all (and I do get your annoyance with sloppiness, oh my, how I get it).	[16:49]
BingoBoingo:	catching up with thread	[16:49]
jfw:	diana_coman: gotcha. And yeah, for me those details make for either extra icing on the cake or extra dirt on the grave, not "wow that's an interesting point but he didn't cross a 't'"	[16:54]
diana_coman:	aha, quite.	[16:54]
BingoBoingo:	dorion: Aside from musl and refind, what else does TMSR have on the forking plate at the moment?	[16:55]
jfw:	~everything?	[16:56]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, don't be that greedy! what, do you want to fork Microsoft's Office now?	[16:56]
diana_coman:	windows!	[16:57]
dorion:	yeah, pretty much everything that's needed to support the implicit clients.	[16:57]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: Well, if I'm recording the news, being able to put the confirmed bozos on one side leaves everyone on the otherside twitching nervously… or not.	[16:57]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo needs concrete stuff, can't go "everything"	[16:57]
jfw:	yeah. well an older linux and gcc come to mind as the biggest	[16:58]
BingoBoingo:	Right. Linux kernel's bozo'ing is old, but…	[16:58]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: effectively crystalspace and cal3d can be added to the list since it's not like anyone other than S.MG working with those versions /doing anything with them anyway.	[16:58]
diana_coman:	cal3d theoretically is "active"; in practice..	[16:58]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: tyvm	[16:58]
diana_coman:	I invited the guy from cal3d to #eulora and there was a talk after which he faded silently away and that was that;	[16:59]
BingoBoingo:	jfw dorion: Most useful are the door's you've already knocked on and you can swear Zher Modesty Bozo the clown answered.	[16:59]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: here's the discussion with the cal3d guy in #eulora	[17:00]
ossabot:	(eulora) 2019-06-13 diana_coman: hi mp3butcher	[17:00]
dorion:	BingoBoingo, as of now, musl and refind are the only doors that've been knocked on.	[17:00]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you dorion: Aite.	[17:01]
diana_coman:	if spyked or jfw genesis that ledger, I guess that would be therefore added to the list too.	[17:02]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: for Gales I forked openbsd's ksh	[17:03]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: Ty, because with the Bob Beck thing, the bozo'ing there's been done and can be linked	[17:03]
jfw:	and since iirc djb was already declared dead we can add his works, of which I'm using daemontools, qmail, ucspi-tcp and djbdns	[17:05]
diana_coman:	heh, how the list grows once one actually looks.	[17:06]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: mpwp for that matter…	[17:06]
diana_coman:	well, "wordpress"	[17:06]
jfw:	python 2, officialy EOL now I believe	[17:07]
dorion:	diana_coman, BingoBoingo the way I'm seeing it now is since everything in TMSR OS is under V, even if the refind guy -or any other project maintainer- expatriates, he'll be forking his current git/cvs/svn process to V.	[17:07]
jfw:	and the king stepped down so who would we even approach on it	[17:07]
diana_coman:	dorion: certainly.	[17:09]
diana_coman:	jfw: python 2 indeed; the thing with this growing list is that all those should be genesised really, huh.	[17:09]
jfw:	I did say so!	[17:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 15:30:09 jfw: There's a long list of things I use but don't have genesis, but might as well chip away.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	jfw: I know you know what you should do!	[17:11]
jfw:	My plan is to start next week with creating a 'gypsy code signing' key then I suppose get the list together and into some kind of order.	[17:12]
dorion:	This is also where the list of dependencies comes in.	[17:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: how/why the gypsy code signing key? ie you are using them, aren't you?	[17:13]
jfw:	diana_coman: because I have not read, much less understood them, which to me is what a V signature means	[17:14]
diana_coman:	that "some kind of order" suddenly illuminates dorion's earlier vision of jfw the order restorer	[17:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 16:43:09 dorion: pictures jfw breaking out ruler to strike ball throwers and restore order.	[17:14]
jfw:	heh, I just meant ordering by priority or category or something.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: I can see the point; it's still a V signature though, if with another key, heh; and still using them.	[17:15]
diana_coman:	anyways, not to say to not do it, it's your choice; just to consider if and whether it's worth the bother of yet another key.	[17:15]
jfw:	I think it's the right sort of bother: given all the code I ~have~ read or written it seems an important distinction as far as which category someone chooses to trust from me.	[17:18]
diana_coman:	ok.	[17:18]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020381 – I have no idea why it needs that much code either, but what appealed to me was the documentation (though iirc they tried to rewrite the manual for v3 and lost a lot) and flexible multi-commodity system. Not sure whether they found the best design for that, but it was more than I could have cooked up with a beginner's grasp of accounting.	[17:28]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 08:43:19 diana_coman: spyked: well, no boost dep is certainly a gain; and yeah, I'm sure that the earlier the version the less of a monster it is; that being said, I'm either really getting old or something but I can hardly see the point of >10k LOC for what can be done precisely as wanted through <1k lines of cmd line tools, huh.	[17:28]
dorion:	hey lobbes, re the reclaiming time from the saltmines, it occurs to me the coronavirus scare could be good opportunity to push for more work from home. 'never let a good crisis go to waste'.	[17:28]
BingoBoingo:	will put a draft here before publication for jfw and dorion to review. Will try to formulate some questions for further clarification as well.	[17:29]
dorion:	BingoBoingo cool, I'll be near.	[17:29]
BingoBoingo:	not unhappy with the local situation where the dollar's down, but the peso's down even more for the time being	[17:30]
jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020383 – I quite agree from experience; there's no point in having two record types there. I was building off the time log format from ledger but would do it differently if from scratch.	[17:30]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 08:45:13 diana_coman: ftr re clock, my scripts don't bother with "end of task" – there's no end to anything, only start of next thing whether that's break or whatever; since time is spent anyway, the start of a new thing is by definition the end of the previous.	[17:30]
BingoBoingo:	lobbes: While you are getting pinged, I have been wondering… What do you want the landscaper to do and what is your USDA zone? re: http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/ejb-review-of-feb-24-mar-1-plan-for-mar-2-mar-8/	[17:47]
BingoBoingo:	dorion jfw: Here's a first draft http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=UhCO I'm still thinking on some questions for you both so feel free to suggest some	[19:01]
dorion:	looks	[19:15]
dorion:	BingoBoingo trb seems like a big one to include in 2nd paragraph.	[19:20]
dorion:	also, even though bvt first genesis'd and patched 4.9 kernel and 2.6.32 isn't done yet, could include that as well.	[19:23]
jfw:	ah there was also Eucrypt, part of which was a liberation of gcrypt from Werner Koch & co. right?	[20:37]
BingoBoingo:	jfw dorion: What does it mean that these things have been liberated? What have they been saved from?	[21:03]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: "progress" I suppose	[21:09]
jfw:	historical versions may quite literally be saved from destruction if they were in the hands of those who don't care to preserve their history, for the simplest part	[21:11]
BingoBoingo:	Well, can you elaborate. The consequences of MP-WP's are visible in the field. It does what wordpress says they do, but it doesn't suck while doing it. The hammering of Cal3D and Crystalspace is rather well documented on Ossasepia down to the bones that are points.	[21:15]
jfw:	another layer would be that in the world we're breaking away from, old code tends to stop working after a while due to churn in its environment, 'bitrot', which if you don't control the environment, forces you to accept whatever new changes have been piled on in the 'update'	[21:15]
jfw:	(dynamic linking is one of the bigger mechanisms through which this works though not the only)	[21:17]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: Alright, now take http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020496 make it a stand alone statement (you can add in context from Gales) that can be used to bring in the Kernel's forking and the eventual forking off of the rest of the legacy devs that don't want to come along	[21:19]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 21:15:47 jfw: another layer would be that in the world we're breaking away from, old code tends to stop working after a while due to churn in its environment, 'bitrot', which if you don't control the environment, forces you to accept whatever new changes have been piled on in the 'update'	[21:19]
jfw:	Then, the focus that V puts on the changes / process and identity of the changer realigns incentives to favor smaller and more important changes	[21:19]
jfw:	pondering that request	[21:21]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: How about I restructure it	[21:22]
BingoBoingo:	Could you repackage the very good point from your last few lines into one quotable paragraph, bonus points if it cuts to the insanity approaching code any other way	[21:24]
jfw:	…apparently not readily. What makes something more quotable / what's missing here?	[21:29]
BingoBoingo:	jfw It isn't that I can't repackage your points. It's that it means something less if I do that, because coming from you it has authority.	[21:29]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: All that's missing is something that fits nicely between blockquote tags	[21:30]
BingoBoingo:	But mostly that the points are assembled into a paragraph.	[21:33]
jfw:	In addition to building new, simple and comprehensible tools, we are moving to preserve historical codebases, keeping them maintained and operational, adding missing functionality (that which solves actual problems), and permanently revoking the power of previous developers to tax the users by forcing unwanted change.	[21:40]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: does that capture it?	[21:42]
jfw:	Prologue from http://trilema.com/2016/ideological-history-of-the-republic/ gave some inspiration there.	[21:44]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: That does, there's one addition that can strengthen it. Append another sentence of the form: "We did it with… , We're doing it to… , and we're prepared to do it to anything else necessary"	[21:48]
BingoBoingo:	There's probably a better way to do it, and it may not be necessary, but if the listing comes from you it… has greater authority than if I'd typed out the exact same sequence of letters.	[21:52]
jfw:	We have a version control methodology built around the concept. We did it to key cryptographic tools including Bitcoin and GPG. We did it to the Linux kernel. We've proven the concept with a full statically linked Linux system bootstrapped from source. We're doing it to compilers, standard libraries, even firmware and bootloaders. And we're prepared to do it to anything that stands in our way.	[21:58]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-09#1020465 << lol, this is a point. I think they even sent out one of those mass email memos on it	[22:03]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 20:18:48 dorion: hey lobbes, re the reclaiming time from the saltmines, it occurs to me the coronavirus scare could be good opportunity to push for more work from home. 'never let a good crisis go to waste'.	[22:03]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-09#1020471 << I only want someone to come and cut the grass every two weeks or so. I'm in the Southeastern Zone so the grass comes in quick and thick, and to me the cost is worth not having to do it myself. I tell you, I've come to hate lawns (before I didn't care one way or the other). Next house I will just have, idk, clover or something. Dirt maybe.	[22:03]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 20:37:50 BingoBoingo: lobbes: While you are getting pinged, I have been wondering… What do you want the landscaper to do and what is your USDA zone? re: http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/ejb-review-of-feb-24-mar-1-plan-for-mar-2-mar-8/	[22:03]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: tyvm	[22:05]
jfw:	yw BingoBoingo. I only hedge with 'proven concept' on Gales because it's not properly V yet.	[22:06]
BingoBoingo:	lobbes: Ah, I though maybe you were trying to resurrect the lawn in order to shop the house around	[22:06]
lobbes:	BingoBoingo: yeah I thought about making it a more 'marketable' lawn, but I'm betting on it being a negligible difference between well-landscaped-lawn and simply-alive-grass	[22:11]
BingoBoingo:	lobbes: Well, a little bit of nitrogen can go a long way, but if you're only cutting every other week… You're playing roulette with the rain.	[22:15]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020514 – there you go. betcha they'll take your word for it and as long as you perform, they'll probably appreciate the proactive self-quarantine.	[22:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 22:03:10 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-09#1020465 << lol, this is a point. I think they even sent out one of those mass email memos on it	[22:24]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 20:18:48 dorion: hey lobbes, re the reclaiming time from the saltmines, it occurs to me the coronavirus scare could be good opportunity to push for more work from home. 'never let a good crisis go to waste'.	[22:24]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020508 http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-09-Mar-2020#1020513 – that's money. thanks for helping to draw it out BingoBoingo	[22:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 21:40:46 jfw: In addition to building new, simple and comprehensible tools, we are moving to preserve historical codebases, keeping them maintained and operational, adding missing functionality (that which solves actual problems), and permanently revoking the power of previous developers to tax the users by forcing unwanted change.	[22:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-09 21:58:14 jfw: We have a version control methodology built around the concept. We did it to key cryptographic tools including Bitcoin and GPG. We did it to the Linux kernel. We've proven the concept with a full statically linked Linux system bootstrapped from source. We're doing it to compilers, standard libraries, even firmware and bootloaders. And we're prepared to do it to anything that stands in our way.	[22:32]
BingoBoingo:	dorion jfw diana_coman: I'll leave the latest draft here till the morning http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=BMzH	[22:36]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: does Jacob Welsh get a WoT link? ;)	[22:42]
jfw:	though you did link my blog, which DOES now have my own contact info, so nbd.	[22:43]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: ty for pointing that out	[22:44]

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#ossasepia Logs for 08 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:38 pm

BingoBoingo:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Bffo << Latest draft plan	[00:11]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: it seems to have at least ~stabilised basically so I'd say publish it already so you can move on to the practical implementation of each point; basically once it's there, look at it each day and aim your work to hit at least one of the stated aims.	[05:09]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: as an aside, for the crawler etc, the whole thing is cleanly split into a few distinct parts to start with namely: collecting as many urls as can be reached/found from a starting url (and this normally would be iterated in turn on all new urls found until ~nothing new is added, that's pretty much how you can tell you explored at least whatever is connected in the least); separate from this quite entirely is filtering …	[05:14]
diana_coman:	… (and here you can define whatever filters you want at any time but they do NOT mess up the previous list, they simply FILTER it and spit out those urls passing the filters as output) – for instance you can have a filter to check for a comment form or a filter to check for activity in 2019 or more recent or a filter to check that the word "bitcoin" appears at all, whatever + you can always combine them but once you make them; …	[05:14]
diana_coman:	… then a separate part can be the one inserting a comment even possibly out of a list you make ; etc.	[05:14]
diana_coman:	the above is the sort of "split the problem" that helps, literally isolating bits that can be done separately and then basically piped together as desired, at any time.	[05:15]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: also, do me a favour and include in your weekly review a brief summary of qntra activity set next to the matching one from past week (a simple thing, should not take more than 15 minutes to make – and if it does take more than automate the making of this report to start with), eg something like a table listing perhaps authors vs topics & comments, with number of articles/comments in each cell – this is just a quick idea, …	[05:21]
diana_coman:	… you find what makes most sense.	[05:21]
diana_coman:	dorion: argh, do you need some laurel soup or what?	[05:22]
jfw:	My soup status update: 1) the wallet Scheme code is all cleaned up and right where it needs to be (though wasn't by my Wednesday deadline); 2) the python isn't quite where I'd like it but good enough for now; 3) shell+gpg integration with install instructions is drafted but needs further testing & ironing out; 4) the Scheme interpreter is fine but needs installation instructions; 5) all the above	[16:16]
jfw:	needs genesis; 6) the TRB patches still need regrind; 7) I was mistaken about the date of a training session, it's next weekend; 8) no progress on databases presentation which means it'll be a fire to put out in upcoming days; 9) I didn't get to my review Saturday because… well, I'd have to say because wallet seemed like more fun and had the excuse of also being important (all the more now that	[16:16]
jfw:	MP means to try it).	[16:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: basically you need some sharper motivation for any reviews and the like, lolz	[16:18]
diana_coman:	what's that difference between where you'd like it and good enough for now at 2) ?	[16:19]
jfw:	Main thing was a DB schema change to track block metadata in its own table; some more minor additions that came to mind were an extra query command and database initialization (which can be done manually for now)	[16:21]
jfw:	oh, also a command to export the address/tag relation since it's the only part of the DB that can't be regenerated from blockchain.	[16:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: so what's the plan there, focus now on genesis + docs + trial with MP and then add those in a vpatch on top or what?	[16:25]
jfw:	diana_coman: yes, though as these weren't in the original spec I'm seeing them more as wishlist for a v2 along with what else turns up from getting some use in practice.	[16:28]
diana_coman:	ah, sounds fine then.	[16:29]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Mar-2020#1020307 – I don't know why I let the review slip yesterday. I ended up spinning, but starting over today and here is what I have so far for the first article in the history you didn't know series.	[16:33]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-08 05:22:43 diana_coman: dorion: argh, do you need some laurel soup or what?	[16:33]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-08-Mar-2020#1020308 – thanks for the update, sounds good. so 1, 3-6 in v1 by thursday, then 2 in v2 at data to be set later ?	[16:37]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-08 16:16:44 jfw: My soup status update: 1) the wallet Scheme code is all cleaned up and right where it needs to be (though wasn't by my Wednesday deadline); 2) the python isn't quite where I'd like it but good enough for now; 3) shell+gpg integration with install instructions is drafted but needs further testing & ironing out; 4) the Scheme interpreter is fine but needs installation instructions; 5) all the above	[16:37]
diana_coman:	dorion: the first paragraph is both running out of breath (you're packing in one sentence 10+ years of your life there, aren't you) and not absolutely needed as it is; as it stands for now, you could probably start directly with the 3rd paragraph and nobody will notice much.	[16:41]
dorion:	jfw well, more likely you'll want to be done with those by tuesday because db presentation on wednesday and time with mp is thursday morning.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	^^^	[16:41]
diana_coman:	but then he won't play with the red fire truck :P	[16:42]
diana_coman:	dorion: what do you mean by "to cure the points together"?	[16:43]
jfw:	mhm. as far as 6, seems I need to clarify with MP what bitcoind he has available, if he wants to test that part. That'd be one of the larger potential quagmires	[16:45]
jfw:	Though one can push a raw tx through block explorer, or I could do it once my node is patched.	[16:45]
dorion:	diana_coman I should've said I'm planning to link the previous articles that touch those topics in the first paragraph to provide context, but okay.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: that would certainly help but it's still not quite enough; if you want to keep those in it's fine but you need to revise them so they read more clearly; maybe look at them and attempt to extract what point you are trying to make with each, in as few words as possible; then rewrite the paragraph starting from/with that.	[16:48]
dorion:	diana_coman re cure I mean ease, since there's a lot to cover from different angles, but weave is probably better.	[16:49]
diana_coman:	even to "bring the points together" would work, sure.	[16:49]
lobbes:	diana_coman: just to update: I have nothing for our standing meeting today. I'm still working through these bugs atm.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	dorion: either at re-read if not at writing – you need to be aware of when/what things you are "importing" and either explain them in text or in a footnote e.g. that "boiling frog complacency" in para 2 – do you expect it's a common ref ?	[16:51]
diana_coman:	lobbes: well, tbh it sounds more like you have no time to have anything really, because the week first still went to saltmines anyway and then the supposedly quick & easy bot review turns out to be neither quick nor easy or something so dunno, doesn't sound all that great overall.	[16:52]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I agree, not going to well. Until I can free myself from these saltmines I'm not sure what else I can do though	[16:53]
dorion:	ok re importing; I do expect boiling frog is a common ref, but I could see being mistaken there and doesn't hurt to explain it.	[16:54]
diana_coman:	hm, coming like that out of the blue I would be surprised if most get it; but I suppose it's perfect for an empirical exercise, lol	[16:54]
diana_coman:	dorion: anyway, if it's first draft, then finish it at least and can do a review on the whole, not like there's much to gain from polishing the intro now.	[16:55]
dorion:	ok.	[16:56]
diana_coman:	lobbes: the trouble with this "until X" approach is that there's always a Y to take the place of X.	[16:56]
diana_coman:	dorion: perhaps worth noting that reviews of written text can be briefly described as "kill your darlings" ; to build up the proper expectations perhaps.	[16:58]
jfw:	ugh, I just realized a possible wallet-draining attack from the online node, no thanks to satoshi's not-even-double-entry bookkeeping where the fee is implicit as outputs-inputs. If node understates the value of previous transaction outputs, signer will over-spend on the fee, up to the actual value of the output – and it has no way to detect this since it doesn't have the full transaction set.	[16:59]
lobbes:	diana_coman: do you mean that even without the saltmines sucking up my time I'd have something else that'd replace that as a time-sink?	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: hm, do you mean that as in a compromised online node?	[17:03]
jfw:	diana_coman: correct	[17:03]
jfw:	at least it's not a direct theft, unless you're the miner who can grab the fee	[17:03]
dorion:	diana_coman noted on killing darlings.	[17:04]
diana_coman:	lobbes: for as long as you take that passive approach ie "x is sucking up time" rather than the active "this is my time and I spend it on x ", how could it even happen differently, really?	[17:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: yes, but do you see somehow the offline wallet meant to protect someone against compromised/malefic online nodes in general?	[17:06]
diana_coman:	(on practical grounds, probably malicious is enough and more likely than outright malefic node, I suppose)	[17:09]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I see your point; I'm not taking the proper ownership of my situation. Thank you, I think I've been slipping as of late back into these old excuse-driven modes	[17:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: well not the general network but your own online node. Previously I thought the worst it could do if compromised was prevent you from transacting, or leak your address set.	[17:09]
jfw:	looks up 'malefic'	[17:09]
diana_coman:	jfw: ah, certainly worth noting the "worst it can do" if at all possible to set it anywhere below "lose all your money" – because by default for anything online, that'd be the straightforward assumption I'd say; but I see what you mean.	[17:11]
jfw:	(Giving you the wrong address to send to is the more obvious attack I'd expect; I just didn't list it above as it's not strictly speaking a function of the bitcoin node.)	[17:12]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's the thing – the offline wallet can't protect operator against incorrect inputs basically; that's just not possible, since offline means precisely "can't check what it's fed"	[17:13]
jfw:	diana_coman: what do you mean would be the straightforward assumption?	[17:14]
diana_coman:	jfw: the "worst it can do is to lose all your money", lol; what else.	[17:14]
jfw:	right. Only the operator can check what is being fed; perhaps using multiple nodes	[17:17]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's what I'd expect, indeed.	[17:18]
jfw:	this vector would be avoided though if there were a rule that "transaction is not valid unless it explicitly states the fee and total input value equals total output value plus fee". Not to mention you could then tell what the fee is just from decoding the raw tx.	[17:20]
jfw:	</venting>	[17:21]
diana_coman:	sure.	[17:21]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/ar-review-march-2nd-march-8th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — AR Review March 2nd – March 8th 2020	[23:05]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/09/ar-plan-march-9th-march-15th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — AR Plan March 9th – March 15th 2020	[23:36]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: A bit of framing added and links installed, but finally published http://bingology.net/2020/qntra-a-plan-for-action/	[23:59]

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#ossasepia Logs for 07 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:28 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/07/rmd-week-18-review-march-1st-6th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 18 review, March 1st-6th, 2020	[00:20]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/07/rmd-week-19-plan-mar-7-13th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 19 plan, Mar 7-13th, 2020	[03:44]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020244 – the core idea is good but its practical translation doesn't seem to look much at the…practicals. To unpack a few things: 1. the type that not only "wants to" but actually reliably, timely and persistently does the homework is anyway scarce in general and moreover apparently extra scarce in your environment there to the point that I suspect you can tell one of those from 1 …	[05:17]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 16:54:11 jfw: part of the thinking on homework was there will be people who actually won't want to do anything outside class, and we want a separate schedule for them so as not to turn away their money but also not put that cost on the faster ones	[05:17]
diana_coman:	… mile off if you just look at how they work & interact otherwise – so it's very easy indeed to simply offer that special and rare person the cheaper option; basically as a special offer for them because indeed, it is for them; I guess another way to put this is that your assumption re which group is predominant and which ones are the exceptions turns out to be the exact opposite of what can be observed in practice.	[05:17]
diana_coman:	2. when people group, they inevitably choose to share the costs and this includes costs other than money; so you can't insulate "the faster ones" fully from the consequences of their own choice to share the costs with "slower" ones. (And I'm biting my tongue here to keep to your terms.)	[05:18]
diana_coman:	3. if the recovery from missed /late/etc homeworks is 2-3 lessons, that doesn't seem to justify introducing otherwise the way larger trouble of policing homework (and it comes with more than just the exact how to, it's basically just not worth it).	[05:22]
diana_coman:	4. the moment you set out to everyone the options "more homework but you pay less" vs "less homework but you pay more", you'll get ~everyone going for "pay less" because guess what, in theory and hallucinated-with-all-the-good-intentions, they ALL see themselves as great at doing any homework because of course, wonderful!!	[05:23]
diana_coman:	so no, for this as for the very first point above, that should be an option that you offer on your decision, not theirs.	[05:23]
diana_coman:	there might be more but meanwhile my morning slot is gone, sheesh. We can talk of it later.	[05:24]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020242 – glad to hear it.	[09:12]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 16:36:13 jfw: diana_coman: I'll spare you the excuses and "buts" coming to mind and get back to showing on time.	[09:12]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020243 – perhaps use this cost to your advantage ie keep it in mind upfront so you don't end up in the situation where you pay it yet again; it's perhaps not in itself productive, but it comes from a healthy need to analyse that fuckup so -hopefully- it doesn't repeat, so perhaps not wasted either.	[09:18]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 16:50:12 jfw: 20 minutes later I'm still feeling down about that fuckup and haven't got another word written. It's like there's a thing that thinks "I can compensate for wasting others' time by wasting more of my own"	[09:18]
jfw:	waves, reads log closer.	[15:17]
diana_coman:	dorion: comment in your modq; and meant to say – it's worth perhaps checking the modq regularly really.	[15:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: do those points make sense to you as they are?	[15:26]
jfw:	diana_coman: great explanation, makes sense to me now. And I get the biting tongue – I conflated the aspects of learning speed versus reliability.	[15:26]
jfw:	and ack on using the cost to my advantage, could work.	[15:28]
diana_coman:	cool; meant to add there just in case it's not clear – this doesn't mean you can't still set homework (esp if you already sold it as "with homework") – for one thing those who do it will benefit anyway, for the other it's not much trouble for you in itself; only don't build it on the shaky foundation that giving the homework will have a visible effect, pretty much,	[15:31]
jfw:	right	[15:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: unrelated, I quite enjoyed the detailed methodology description for your latest article, heh.	[15:32]
jfw:	diana_coman: thanks	[15:32]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: when is your eta for that plan? or are you still iterating it or what's the status there?	[15:33]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I'll have the next (potentially final) draft of the plan out sometime before sleeping tonight.	[15:35]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: was this your plan or is it triggered now by my ping on it?	[15:36]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It's been the plan to finish the draft today and hopefully have little on the plate tomorrow for reviewing the week and planning the next.	[15:37]
diana_coman:	ok then.	[15:37]
BingoBoingo:	I've been setting the plan down a bit more to freshen the eyes each draft lest they autofill in things during the reading that I haven't actually written into it (or fail to pick up spelling errors, missing words, etc)	[15:40]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-07-Mar-2020#1020267 – thanks, approved and will ping you when responded this pm and check with more regularity.	[15:46]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-07 15:25:10 diana_coman: dorion: comment in your modq; and meant to say – it's worth perhaps checking the modq regularly really.	[15:46]
diana_coman:	dorion: no need to ping, feedbot should do that for me, so no worries there.	[15:47]
dorion:	right, right.	[15:48]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: that sounds right; my q was mainly as your blog has been rather quiet and so it's hard to say if/what is moving forwards, at what pace/whether anything stuck, etc.	[15:51]
diana_coman:	and given 100\% experience to date around here, I ask to save the time, yes.	[15:52]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I've been hesitant to publish anything on the blog until the plan has been polished. Getting more proactive with the communication across all the fronts is going to have to go on the "to improve list"	[15:55]
diana_coman:	np	[15:57]
BingoBoingo:	My impression so far is that this week's been better than last, even with the bureaucratic time sink stretching well outside its allowance.	[16:00]
BingoBoingo:	But, that impression is open to change when I sit down to actually digest the notes tomorrow.	[16:01]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: well, the review should show in clear whether better or worse and where + why; that's one of its roles anyway.	[16:01]
diana_coman:	aha	[16:01]
BingoBoingo:	Anyways, after I get everything set down this evening, the plan for tomorrow is 1. read the notes 2. Weather permitting, wander over to the feria and get the blood moving 3. review, plan 4. Receive thimbronion's contribution.	[16:07]
BingoBoingo:	Then Monday pick everything else up from where I left them Saturday evening.	[16:08]
diana_coman:	sounds reasonable.	[16:14]
jfw:	oh say, lobbes: I've got 'not found' errors from archive.is on a couple attempted zip downloads recently; does your process notice these?	[21:27]
lobbes:	jfw: Hm, you know I was going to say "I'd have to check the process logs" but then I realize I'm not logging my output. Next time I pull the crank I'll divert the output to a textfile	[23:58]
lobbes:	I've definitely noticed weirdness from archive.is though, so wouldn't surprise me	[23:58]

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#ossasepia Logs for 06 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:18 pm

jfw:	dorion: how about this for incentivizing studiousness outside the classroom and keeping class efficient: charge a deposit for a couple extra sessions, to be refunded on timely completion. One could argue this perversely rewards us for dragging things out, but I don't really think so: our interest is to get it done and move on to the next thing.	[12:57]
dorion:	jfw in addition to what we're already charging ?	[12:59]
jfw:	well, for the current prospects it could be done as a conditional discount if they're the sort that must get special extra discount. But in general an addition	[13:01]
dorion:	jfw what you're suggesting for them then is, pay the normal price, but if you keep the pace you get a partial refund at the end ?	[13:09]
jfw:	right, though there still needs to be an upper limit, don't want to imply it cam be dragged out indefinitely.	[13:11]
dorion:	seems like having a clause in the contract that accounts for the progress would be a good middle ground. e.g. if they've not done homework and we're forced to go at a slower pace, we don't continue until they've paid for the extra time.	[13:11]
jfw:	works too as far as I can tell, and with less upfront expense for them	[13:13]
dorion:	assumes good fatih, but sets explicit expectations and conditions if the expectations aren't met.	[13:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: what was the situation re homework on the previous run, both in terms of amount done/not done and in terms of consequences to advancing at the pace you had designed?	[15:27]
diana_coman:	lobbes: is there a review/update missing from you?	[15:28]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020222 – do you have this in mind for groups too? how do you decide there if you can or can't keep the pace when 2 will do the homework and the 3rd won't do it?	[15:34]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 13:11:29 dorion: seems like having a clause in the contract that accounts for the progress would be a good middle ground. e.g. if they've not done homework and we're forced to go at a slower pace, we don't continue until they've paid for the extra time.	[15:34]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020224 – dorion, this is the good idea indeed but translating it to practice doesn't seem to be yet fully clear.	[15:36]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 13:15:30 dorion: assumes good fatih, but sets explicit expectations and conditions if the expectations aren't met.	[15:36]
dorion:	diana_coman I think we should have the clause for groups as well, but agree the practice isn't clear for any groups or one on one. We have a session with our client that owns the language school tomorrow. I'll think about it more and also ask him how they handle it. I know they have situations where students don't even show for the class.	[15:40]
diana_coman:	dorion: well, they are perfectly entitled to pay you for lessons they don't attend, I don't quite see the problem with that in itself; the trouble starts only if your promise is of an end result (and language schools as far as I know are never that foolish to make hard promises on that, heh)	[15:50]
diana_coman:	this is part of the reason behind my question to jfw above – it's not as much about policing what they do as it is about making sure you don't promise what you can't control in the end.	[15:53]
jfw:	sorry to delay diana_coman, trying to get an article finished off, poor scheduling for sure.	[16:12]
jfw:	(almost there.)	[16:12]
diana_coman:	well, I need to go in ~5 minutes anyway.	[16:22]
jfw:	hm ok. http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-06-Mar-2020#1020225 – several assignments were done late and several not done at all, which required spending more class time.	[16:24]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 15:27:04 diana_coman: jfw: what was the situation re homework on the previous run, both in terms of amount done/not done and in terms of consequences to advancing at the pace you had designed?	[16:24]
jfw:	probably 2-3 sessions worth of delay.	[16:24]
diana_coman:	jfw: re timing it's weird that apparently exactly 7pm utc somehow is impossible, either earlier or later works; but anyways, at last minute – that really sounds like you are probably better off without any homework-police and just add the 2-3 sessions extra time by default to give you room; ie give homework for practice but plan for pretty much if they don't do anything.	[16:27]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[16:27]
jfw:	diana_coman: I'll spare you the excuses and "buts" coming to mind and get back to showing on time.	[16:36]
jfw:	20 minutes later I'm still feeling down about that fuckup and haven't got another word written. It's like there's a thing that thinks "I can compensate for wasting others' time by wasting more of my own"	[16:50]
jfw:	part of the thinking on homework was there will be people who actually won't want to do anything outside class, and we want a separate schedule for them so as not to turn away their money but also not put that cost on the faster ones	[16:54]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020077 << while I do have an indexer set up over at lobbesblog.com, the quickest way to retrieve an archived link is to just hit archive.is directly. I usually just slap "archive.is/url-I-want-to-check" into my browser and it should redirect to the archive	[20:06]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 08:03:32 diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020087 – ah, perfect then! say I want to see what was in the paste given there – how do I find the link to the bot's archived version?	[20:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 23:02:37 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-27#1019473 << I missed this earlier, but archiving should already be occurring in this channel. Currently lobbesbot is set to silently snarf urls-to-parse from all channels it sits in, so this channel ought to be covered	[20:06]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 16:47:26 BingoBoingo: This is the most recent 'churn3' I've produced http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=VxhL	[20:06]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-02-27 13:03:46 diana_coman: lobbes: how does that link-archiving work, can I have it in here too or what does it require?	[20:06]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-06#1020211 << I did indeed miss my update yesterday. I was swallowed up by the saltmines for the majority of this week, but finally I've got most of that work out of the way (for now). Tonight I'm aiming to finally get my testing done..	[20:06]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-03-06 19:19:09 diana_coman: lobbes: is there a review/update missing from you?	[20:06]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 05 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 6:08 pm

jfw:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020075 – and just 'cause diana_coman was running off didn't mean there was no point responding, so: seems it morphed in my head from what was written to the phrase "high-strung" as I'd heard it more. I think I get it; makes more sense as applied to the writing than to an instrument though, they don't seem to mind being tuned and in fact demand it	[01:42]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 17:59:29 diana_coman: jfw: ah, not at all stuffy/bombastic/pretentious, no; and not nervous either; and note that I use adverbs correctly, it's highly (not "high") strung for a reason! if you think of how you tighten/loosen up strings on a guitar, that's pretty much the analogy there – you kept stretching and tuning and fiddling with it that the result is a highly strung (and generally too tightly but not only that) text/string.	[01:42]
jfw:	to sleep	[01:42]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020087 – ah, perfect then! say I want to see what was in the paste given there – how do I find the link to the bot's archived version?	[04:13]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 23:02:37 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-27#1019473 << I missed this earlier, but archiving should already be occurring in this channel. Currently lobbesbot is set to silently snarf urls-to-parse from all channels it sits in, so this channel ought to be covered	[04:13]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 16:47:26 BingoBoingo: This is the most recent 'churn3' I've produced http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=VxhL	[04:13]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-02-27 13:03:46 diana_coman: lobbes: how does that link-archiving work, can I have it in here too or what does it require?	[04:13]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020089 – indeed there's point in responding! (and glad I didn't have to chase it up, too) ; re instrument – it's one thing to tune it, sure; it's another thing to tighten the string TOO much, that's the thing; it makes the very same sense for instrument as for writing – tuning is fine, but too much/incorrect "tuning" will sound rather poorly/break stuff.	[04:15]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 01:42:19 jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020075 – and just 'cause diana_coman was running off didn't mean there was no point responding, so: seems it morphed in my head from what was written to the phrase "high-strung" as I'd heard it more. I think I get it; makes more sense as applied to the writing than to an instrument though, they don't seem to mind being tuned and in fact demand it	[04:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: and I'd say the asking in #t re sigs was useful and productive, possibly not even as difficult as it seemed, was it?	[04:16]
diana_coman:	speaking of which – dorion, did that point make full sense for you in the end? or is it still rather fuzzy in parts/overall/unsure?	[04:22]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-04 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958772 << in retrospect, i suspect maybe you don't take my meaning.	[04:22]
diana_coman:	one full minute for ossabot to act, sheesh	[04:22]
dorion:	diana_coman pretty sure it makes full sense.	[11:55]
jfw:	diana_coman: ah ok. And yeah, the asking was useful & not too difficult.	[12:01]
jfw:	diana_coman: are you familiar with Knuth's approach to literate programming (possibly he coined the term)? I took a peek down that rabbit hole, seems like there might be something to learn there before we go reinventing comment characters	[12:05]
jfw:	in the interests of openness, mini-thread from across the river yesterday: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-04#1008422	[12:13]
snsabot:	(asciilifeform) 2020-03-04 jfw: And since I was poked about it: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-05#1006048 – doesn't seem to describe what MP has in mind, though I could see it as the first guess from initial description.	[12:13]
BingoBoingo:	after two visits finially has a receipt for inscribing my birth certificate in the civil registry. Estimate for that was not sufficiently pessimum, but that ordeal is over.	[13:18]
dorion:	diana_coman in working on the history of main actors in Bitcoin article, I'm struggling most with the introduction in that it seems like I should put Bitcoin in context of other currencies/payment systems.	[13:36]
dorion:	or at least I think doing so would build a stronger context for why the reader ought to care anything about Bitcoin in the first place.	[13:37]
dorion:	In my own experience, the driving force that ultimately lead me to Bitcoin was the realization of the problems with first fiat, then the disadvantages of gold compared to Bitcoin.	[13:38]
dorion:	It seems most people remain content with fiat because they've not looked at it critically.	[13:38]
dorion:	one precursor article I have in mind would show how the fiat bureaucrats have been deliberately undermining currency. another would show how their system creates the bubbles they then blame on capitalism.	[13:44]
dorion:	I can then also layer on what I learned about the centralization of the correspondent banking system while working with euro pacific bank.	[13:48]
BingoBoingo:	returns from the far more pleasant experience of scheduling appointment to renew the local id.	[14:40]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020102 – cool then.	[15:10]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 11:55:45 dorion: diana_coman pretty sure it makes full sense.	[15:10]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020104 – to some extent (though I esp recall his literate/illiterate vs structured/unstructured, heh); iirc he proposed in fact an even stricter separation of code from comments since his "language" (web was it called?) was meant to have then 2 processors, one for generating the code (aka for machine execution and so absolutely unreadable) and one for generating the book (aka for …	[15:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 12:05:59 jfw: diana_coman: are you familiar with Knuth's approach to literate programming (possibly he coined the term)? I took a peek down that rabbit hole, seems like there might be something to learn there before we go reinventing comment characters	[15:14]
diana_coman:	… human consumption and so meant literally as a "book of this program")	[15:14]
diana_coman:	jfw: thinking of it now I think he just picked some "special chars" and the like, basically had two interpreters/processors and that was that; did you have something specific in mind from there?	[15:15]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020105 – jfw, would you mind summarising that mini-thread for me? The snr there used to be so bad I had stopped reading it altogether (though kept logging it for a while merely for not getting around to cleanup time) but trying to read it now following your link I even fail to extract any signal at all.	[15:20]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 12:13:15 jfw: in the interests of openness, mini-thread from across the river yesterday: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-04#1008422	[15:20]
snsabot:	(asciilifeform) 2020-03-04 jfw: And since I was poked about it: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-05#1006048 – doesn't seem to describe what MP has in mind, though I could see it as the first guess from initial description.	[15:20]
jfw:	diana_coman: 'web', yes; though I got the idea there was more to the processing than just separating comments from code. Some kind of 'natural language' emphasis and macro substitution. (Though I wonder if that ends up any different from a macro facility provided by the language itself.)	[15:21]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020107 – congrats BingoBoingo on one fight with the local bureaucracy, I gather; do you need to register your birth certificate in Uy for the local id or why the bother?	[15:22]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 13:18:50 BingoBoingo: after two visits finially has a receipt for inscribing my birth certificate in the civil registry. Estimate for that was not sufficiently pessimum, but that ordeal is over.	[15:22]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I needed to register it to renew the id. They didn't need it on their books to give it to me the first time, but for some reason the want it for the renewal.	[15:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: iirc the processing simply extracted the bits relevant for the chosen branch (code/book) and otherwise the emphasis at processing time was more on typesetting and the like; the rest was still at comment-writing time really; though there was possibly some enforcing in that iirc you had to write first an explanation of what you mean to do and then the code (+ maybe the usual book contents structure though I don't recall in detail …	[15:24]
diana_coman:	… how/where was that spec)	[15:24]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: ahaha, that's so typical bureaucracy, yes.	[15:24]
BingoBoingo:	In the local fashion, the floor was laid out like bad video game dungeon. "complete this obstacle, proceed to next room" Final room was covered in posters declaring that it isn't the fault of the trabajadores that the service sucks…	[15:27]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020108 – dorion, I can see what you mean there; you still have 2 options though: 1. if you'd rather finish now this article and publish, you can simply make those points concisely in the introduction since they are part of the wider context but not your current focus and provide the relevant links as supporting references; 2. if you'd rather switch and write the bitcoin article …	[15:28]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 13:36:52 dorion: diana_coman in working on the history of main actors in Bitcoin article, I'm struggling most with the introduction in that it seems like I should put Bitcoin in context of other currencies/payment systems.	[15:28]
diana_coman:	… instead, you can switch to that but I suspect you'll then find you'd much rather have already written one/several of those pending articles from your own series, heh	[15:28]
jfw:	diana_coman: asciilifeform had reacted to his understanding of MP's suggestion, saying it'd be massively impractical. He invited me to comment, so I pointed out the proposal had since been clarified; still I found myself uncertain why the change was necessary or important. He drew out his initial RSA performance point. That's about it.	[15:29]
diana_coman:	jfw: wait, he invited you to comment on his own understanding of MP's suggestion? uhm, how would you do that? lol	[15:30]
diana_coman:	what was this understanding or what am I not getting?	[15:31]
jfw:	well, the claim he'd made about it at least. His notion was that every source file in, say, Linux kernel was to be rsa-signed (which was also what I'd thought at first).	[15:32]
diana_coman:	fwiw I don't think that the proposal is yet fully clarified, no; it has been discussed a tiny bit, mainly thanks to your questions yesterday but that's far from clarified; so I have no idea what exact vision is the "massively impractical" though obviously, it's not hard to come with any number of such visions.	[15:32]
diana_coman:	jfw: uhm, that would be easily settled though with a …question, no?	[15:33]
diana_coman:	lol	[15:33]
jfw:	yes, I think his priors make him assume the worst and tune out the rest	[15:33]
jfw:	spyked had asked that question.	[15:33]
dorion:	diana_coman I'd rather write the pending articles first to build up to the Bitcoin article.	[15:35]
diana_coman:	well, at least I guess I got now what the mini-thread was about; mainly about asciilifeform's understanding formed by tuning out bits; anyways, thanks jfw for bridging it in since you spent some time on it anyway.	[15:36]
jfw:	yw diana_coman.	[15:36]
diana_coman:	dorion: sounds rather more sensible indeed; do ask though if the intro is still troublesome or something.	[15:37]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020111 – this may or may not be, you know? for one thing, who knows what's in the mind of men and all that; for the other, do you mean that as in "they didn't have where/what to look at to get started on the critical look "?	[15:39]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 13:38:25 dorion: It seems most people remain content with fiat because they've not looked at it critically.	[15:39]
diana_coman:	dorion: ah, now I realised I read your statement precisely the opposite, lol	[15:39]
dorion:	diana_coman ok. as I started on the outlines up the tree from where I was, an article on what money is an why it's important looks like the proper starting point. then why and how socialist attach money.	[15:40]
dorion:	diana_coman part of the challenge as I see it is money wasn't correctly defined/understood until the late 19th/early 20th century. as I see it, the austrians first did this, which is a reason why their forecasts have been consistently correct.	[15:43]
BingoBoingo:	dorion: Another part of the problem is how incredibly young the fiat thing is.	[15:43]
diana_coman:	dorion: hm, let's see, for instance the essences series, a theory of economics, thinking about money and all the bitcoin-explaining articles – not enough refs for an intro?	[15:43]
diana_coman:	ah, there's a ref right for that, if only brain cooperates	[15:44]
diana_coman:	essentially allocation of resources , ah	[15:44]
BingoBoingo:	http://trilema.com/2017/the-ecu/	[15:45]
jfw:	http://trilema.com/2012/the-problem-of-too-much-money/ ?	[15:46]
dorion:	BingoBoingo I could see it. But devaluation/debauchery goes back a long way.	[15:47]
diana_coman:	heh, both add to it and can work but not what I had in mind :( it was more to dorion's point re pretty much how /what understanding of underlying reality is baked in one monetary system or another	[15:48]
dorion:	part of what I want to point out one of the articles up the tree is keynes and greenspan's own words that show they know what they're doing.	[15:49]
diana_coman:	dorion: beyond those specifics though, the point at hand for your writing as such is simple: you do have something to add, sure, but that is mainly your inside & direct experience at the bank – and you'll certainly set this in the wider context, sure; but that is not to say you don't already have plenty for one intro on the article you've started on and the rabbit hole you are attracted by is huge	[15:50]
diana_coman:	I know; and you must realise that the same words you read have been there for a long time so it's not like people don't pay them attention just because they aren't in a fresh article or something	[15:51]
BingoBoingo:	http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/	[15:52]
diana_coman:	I suppose I can add the squares do morals. a porno to the pile of refs relevant but not the one.	[15:52]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: yes! thank you!!	[15:53]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: You're welcome	[15:53]
dorion:	diana_coman agree on both points. perhaps intermediate step is to outline what I have in mind for the other articles so at least it's out of my head and easier to judge if I can limit the rabit hole spelunking.	[15:54]
diana_coman:	though hm, now re-reading it all I think there was some discussion too because I distinctly recall the issue of allocation/distribution of resources in more detail, hm	[15:54]
dorion:	diana_coman http://trilema.com/2015/whoever-said-resource-allocation-is-a-solved-problem-deserves-a-kick-in-the-nads/ ?	[15:55]
diana_coman:	dorion: outline away for sure; and yes, you basically have a lot of unwritten articles that got triggered by the "omfg, he's FINALLY writing, let's go!!!"	[15:55]
diana_coman:	dorion: that's a preview/early thing only, hm.	[15:56]
diana_coman:	anyways, don't let this fully eat up the time now	[15:57]
dorion:	diana_coman ok, I'll get to the outlining and the finally writing.	[15:58]
diana_coman:	there is also the dialogue on economy for that matter but …still not quite there.	[15:58]
diana_coman:	and now the dig got me into early euloran history, lol; nevertheless, for the economy curious	[16:02]
billymg:	dorion: not trilema, but there are some good greenspan quotes in here http://www.contravex.com/2014/10/27/the-revolution-was-fiat-the-reaction-is-bitcoin/	[16:06]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020113 – dorion, at any rate, it's pretty much this what you have most interesting to add because you get to talk there from the inside; the rest is all the context really and you can link it in and even weave it together but it's not likely to be much addition as such.	[16:08]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 13:48:22 dorion: I can then also layer on what I learned about the centralization of the correspondent banking system while working with euro pacific bank.	[16:08]
diana_coman:	billymg: eh, it's not like it has to be trilema or something; but certainly can't build anything other than nonsense on just quotes; and for that matter if he needs greenspan quotes, I'm sure he can find plenty, lolz; (as an aside, contravex is "not trilema" in that pete dushenski at that time was just re-writing what he understood of trilema so dunno exactly what not-trilema)	[16:11]
dorion:	billymg thanks! I'd read that before (and a lot more contravex), but it was a while ago and I'd forgot that article used that essy. the gold and economic freedom essay was one half of the greenspan I was going to quote, the other half was greenspan on 60 minutes about deliberately talking nonsense, 'syntax destruction' as he calls it.	[16:12]
dorion:	diana_coman, noted on the inside perspective.	[16:14]
billymg:	diana_coman: ah, i didn't know that before. a lot of his posts on the surface sound like (or appear to try to sound like) trilema so that certainly explains that!	[16:16]
diana_coman:	billymg: I guess the clearest statement he has written himself would be this	[16:18]
billymg:	diana_coman: i hadn't seen that one before, thank you	[16:22]
diana_coman:	yw	[16:29]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-05-Mar-2020#1020131 – heh, I'd class it as entry level; for some fun, see the place that sends you mad perhaps.	[16:48]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-05 15:27:00 BingoBoingo: In the local fashion, the floor was laid out like bad video game dungeon. "complete this obstacle, proceed to next room" Final room was covered in posters declaring that it isn't the fault of the trabajadores that the service sucks…	[16:48]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It does seem some number of levels removed from that, mostly for the lack of more than one floor. The challenges were not physically arranged in linear fashion. Now, if the ministry of tree hugging where I had to go file an affidavit that I know how to throw away trash to import things swapped buildings with the civil registry…	[17:02]
BingoBoingo:	The worst horror stories I've heard though all involve regularizing foreign professional degrees through the Universidad de la Republic	[17:05]
diana_coman:	I guess the equivalence/recognition of degrees is always classed on higher levels of bureaucratic hurdles because of work rights and the like	[17:21]
BingoBoingo:	Every venezualan doctor and dentist I've met has at least two years of coursework and the entire clinical component to redo in la manera Uruguaya.	[17:22]
diana_coman:	well, so do they find it to be very different?	[17:24]
BingoBoingo:	They find it more… primitive.	[17:27]
diana_coman:	lol; but that could take more time to learn, indeed! how to make do without	[17:28]
BingoBoingo:	And they very much resent the Cuban government's ocular surgeons that don't have a general medical education coming in and removing cataracts	[17:28]
diana_coman:	eh, resentment is very easy to find reasons for.	[17:29]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: The dentist I take Spanish lessons with doesn't complain about a lack of materials here so much as the content in the courses in Uruguay lagging Venezuela by some number of decades.	[17:33]
BingoBoingo:	Ergonomics is her big complaint	[17:34]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: yes, and I fully get the frustration; but it's nevertheless the rather naive sort of attempting to judge on professional grounds what is in fact simply the politics of a situation.	[17:36]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Indeed. The situation with the Cuban cataract removal specialists also has behind it that they do one thing and Cuban pays for it.	[17:37]
diana_coman:	it's in a sense very much the equivalent of this really; the point of the exercise (and the cuban doctors example just reinforces it) has nothing to do with the actual clinical experience or anything related to the medical act as such.	[17:37]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-04 mp_en_viaje: "people shouldn't lie" "motherfucker, I WAS TELLING A STORY!!!" what, "nevertheless!!!" what is this, jeffersonian democracy ?	[17:37]
BingoBoingo:	I can see it.	[17:40]
diana_coman:	at any rate, what rubs there is that on one hand "they are behind us!!!" but on the other hand the hard reality is that "the advanced" are the ones without the choice because look that all that advanced is not enough by itself so…	[17:41]
BingoBoingo:	This "advanced" on its own does seem to be quite the tricky trap. At what cost and how many other things were missed to advance on this one front and not all these others.	[17:44]
BingoBoingo:	And the big "is it actual advancement" question	[17:44]
diana_coman:	and moreover, there is always the fact that "they are not as good as we actually are" is ~always the retort /way to compensate really.	[17:46]
BingoBoingo:	has not met anyone trying to regularize a foreign law degree here, but with ~1/4 of the graduates here being abogados or escribanos…)	[17:50]
diana_coman:	well, law I'd say is always dubious to "regularize" since it's country specific by definition.	[17:54]
BingoBoingo:	Indeed that's a start over from zero situation.	[17:55]
diana_coman:	dorion: http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/	[17:59]
diana_coman:	dorion: and otherwise perhaps follow those links from http://trilema.com/2010/alan-greenspan-si-criza/	[18:02]
diana_coman:	the article itself translates to Romanian Greenspan's talks but the links get you to the original so there's nothing lost.	[18:05]
diana_coman:	and otherwise in English directly, I suppose this	[18:06]
diana_coman:	adding to the list for the logs, re [trilema.com/2014/lets-pretend/][gold vs bitcoin]	[18:14]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 04 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 5:58 pm

whaack:	jfw: hm yup I received that, I will pay more attention to the =freenode tab going forward	[11:05]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/04/no-bones-in-thy-skeleton-and-no-theory-in-thy-research/ << Ossa Sepia — No Bones in Thy Skeleton and No Theory in Thy Research	[12:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: why u no write? It's been a whole week!!1	[15:30]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: where are you with the scripts? kind of lost track of that part and saw only the drafts.	[15:31]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Feeding urls from a file to curl using command substitution appears to fit in the hand. I'll clean up the pieces I have and get them in here.	[16:23]
jfw:	diana_coman: because I'm ffa'ing it apparently, "can't possibly cut elephant into more manageable bites". Published nao.	[16:31]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, "eat your elephants in small pieces!"	[16:36]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: more to the point: what steps do you have working, what did you obtain already with them, what's the next step and where are you with that ?	[16:40]
BingoBoingo:	http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=x7wl << The website discovery pieces. I've got a start to a filter for "Things with these file extensions aren't interesting" and a start to a "Does this page have a comment box" tester.	[16:40]
BingoBoingo:	Now that gathering works, the next step is cutting out the gathered items that aren't interesting.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: did you run those on anything? on what? what did you get out of it? where do you run them next?	[16:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: so you have in that very article some questions re the signatures thread – why didn't you ask those in #t?	[16:44]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I've run them starting from a few different sites. I get at the end a file 'churndomains4' full of website urls.	[16:47]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Since running out that many iterations gets very slow, for now I'm testing the filtering on the 'churn3' list of all urls collected from a bunch of discovered sites.	[16:47]
BingoBoingo:	This is the most recent 'churn3' I've produced http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=VxhL	[16:47]
BingoBoingo:	Here's the most recent (and smaller) churndomains4 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=bKiT	[16:49]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: uhm, I don't quite get it – are you after the sites or after all pages of a site? (and even …images??)	[16:50]
jfw:	diana_coman: they were pretty vague in my mind until spelling it all out now. Perhaps even still now, dunno; do they make sense to you?	[16:51]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: to my mind the initial exploration aims to get literally as many domains as you can reach starting from a given point; so yes, it follows links from there but you don't really need to save other than those that point to another domain, do you?	[16:52]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: what's though the core trouble you are having with this because it seems to me quite obviously going beyond curl/awk/sed/whatever command line ie you just don't see it as clear or specific enough steps at all, can't quite put my finger on it.	[16:53]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, your article there is quite highly strung and rather visibly the result of pain-writing; but the way it looks it's quite as you say in footnote 1 – you torture the writing because it's not as definitive as you'd want it to be, huh.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: the thing with questions though is that they are precisely exploratory – it's true that at times you can indeed ask questions to help the other party explore but not all questions are like that, lol; at times you literally ask to figure stuff out so yes, necessarily before things are clear, lol	[16:58]
diana_coman:	jfw: specifically on the questions in footnote iv, the second one assumes the whiteout – it's unclear that is the desired approach to start with so maybe ask that? ie how would it work, maybe whiteout or something else/what?	[16:59]
diana_coman:	the first one seems quite clear ie the underlying concern is that including signatures in the same place as the vpatch/text requires some clear separation of the roles of those 2 bunches of (ultimately) text; so how is that to be achieved?	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: is that what you are asking there?	[17:01]
jfw:	so aiming too far even with the questions, hm.	[17:01]
diana_coman:	jfw: what do you mean by "too far"?	[17:02]
jfw:	trying to cover too much ground and possibly introducing bad assumptions rather than starting with something simpler	[17:03]
jfw:	yes, the boundary between sigs and text is the root of it	[17:04]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: It's not the most elegant approach, but I	[17:05]
BingoBoingo:	'll try rearranging and presenting	[17:05]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: On the first couple rounds I'm after new sites. On the last round I'm after blogposts specifically. The thing I'm chewing on now is cutting the uninteresting stuff out of the file full of urls to images and everything else without stripping it down to the bare domains.	[17:05]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: As this works now, it curls one site puts all the urls in a file, the next step produces from that a smaller file of only new site urls, the third step curls the sites creating a large file of all encountered urls, fourth step trims it down to sites…	[17:05]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: So where I want to go is from an "all urls file" to "urls scrubbed of images, .js, .css, etc", from there retrieve urls and screen for comment boxes in the next cut.	[17:05]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, you probably have way more practice figuring things out on your own than through discussion, don't you?	[17:05]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: In between "scrub images etc" and "retrieve urls looking for comment boxes", I'm uncertain if I want to add a "cut the list to 3 or 4" urls per site step.	[17:05]
jfw:	diana_coman: yep	[17:06]
diana_coman:	jfw: that's pretty much the underlying cause really – in other words simply lack of practice.	[17:07]
diana_coman:	and it's quite possibly further coming from the fact that yeah, not much to get from asking questions of the clueless and so on, to the full context; but the solution is still…practice.	[17:08]
jfw:	makes sense.	[17:08]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: it's not about elegant or anything of the sort; but to start with, a program executes a series of steps itself, it doesn't have to be one step one script; the point and my repeated asking for your "steps" is to figure out what are you trying to achieve at one stage if you prefer; ie stage 1: discovery of linked domains starting from a given domain; 2. finding all pages with a comment box for a given domain	[17:10]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: basically you have a big problem to solve; you'll have to cut this into smaller problems so you can solve them; if needed, you cut and cut again (divide and conquer , pretty much)	[17:11]
diana_coman:	then once you have one small-enough problem, that you know how to solve manually, you simply take those manual steps and tell the machine to do them.	[17:12]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020036 – heh, now I suspect you've been reading the #e logs of today, lol	[17:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 17:03:48 jfw: trying to cover too much ground and possibly introducing bad assumptions rather than starting with something simpler	[17:14]
jfw:	I haven't actually	[17:15]
diana_coman:	jfw: you know, one of the good things in academia is that you have to ask questions; as in, if you listen to a presentation, whatever it might be, on whatever topic and regardless of how well or badly made, at the end you have to ask at least x questions; that's practice, pure and simple and it…works.	[17:16]
diana_coman:	looking back at it (as I was initially rubbish at this part), I think initially I simply studied other people's questions to figure out how they managed it, lolz	[17:17]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-04-Mar-2020#1020054 – then even more well done you!	[17:17]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-04 17:15:06 jfw: I haven't actually	[17:17]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I'll get to breaking these problems up some more.	[17:18]
diana_coman:	(today's #e log is not directly on question asking but it is on exploring what is pretty much a big unknown and it touches at times on what makes for a better initial exploration precisely on the grounds you gave re possibly introducing bad assumptions if not simple enough)	[17:18]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: yw; is it clear to you what & how there? because I really don't want that it blocks you even more somehow.	[17:19]
jfw:	diana_coman: interesting, I hadn't heard about the mandatory questions. Re #e, perhaps it's that you brought the notion through your feedback, and I attempted to expand.	[17:20]
diana_coman:	might be.	[17:22]
diana_coman:	jfw: since you have presentations at your Junto meetings for that matter, do you have questions at the end?	[17:22]
jfw:	heh, sometimes we have to tamp down on questions popping up throughout so as to get to the end	[17:23]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, that's good then; is it you asking questions though? :P	[17:23]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: The whats seem clear. The hows less so, but enough to get moving.	[17:24]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: alright then.	[17:24]
jfw:	diana_coman: sometimes; though hm, possibly less on the more unfamiliar topics.	[17:25]
jfw:	mandatory questions afterward sounds like a great addition actually.	[17:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: in principle there's nothing wrong with just agreeing to keep questions for the end (as some of them might be answered at times simply at a later point in the presentation) and otherwise set mandatory questions at the end, yeah	[17:27]
jfw:	so I wasn't sure what "high strung" meant, my guess was something in the vein of pretentious or stuffy or bombastic (not that those are all that similar), but I'm reading it's more in the vein of nervous or tense, which certainly seems to fit better here. Is that right diana_coman?	[17:39]
jfw:	and that'd be another example of where I coulda figured out by asking earlier!	[17:41]
jfw:	afk, food	[17:44]
diana_coman:	jfw: ah, not at all stuffy/bombastic/pretentious, no; and not nervous either; and note that I use adverbs correctly, it's highly (not "high") strung for a reason! if you think of how you tighten/loosen up strings on a guitar, that's pretty much the analogy there – you kept stretching and tuning and fiddling with it that the result is a highly strung (and generally too tightly but not only that) text/string.	[17:59]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[18:00]
whaack:	when i run top on one of my vms, I get "Mem: 3922344k total, 1768028k used, 2154316k free, 143744k buffers" for the line that describes memory usage. When I inspect how much memory an individual process is using on the same vm with the command pmap, i get "total 3245868K" for the last line. Why would pmap report more memory being used by one process than top reports for all proccesses?	[19:27]
jfw:	whaack: do you know how virtual memory works?	[19:44]
whaack:	jfw: No, I do not	[19:47]
jfw:	whaack: sorry 'bout the delay, got my attentions diverted. It's worth learning about (what, they didn't have any comp arch class at that MIT?!) but the short version is each process has its own address space, portions of which get mapped to different things such as physical RAM, files, hardware registers and such by the OS and CPU (MMU specifically).	[20:42]
jfw:	so what you're looking at with pmap is the total mappings, many of which may be shared with other processes, not actually allocated due to overcommit, and so on.	[20:44]
jfw:	The RES line in top or ps listings tends to the be closest approximation of actual usage attributable to the process in my understanding.	[20:45]
jfw:	(resident set size)	[20:45]
whaack:	jfw: no worries, thank you. Yes MIT did, but through my fault the material didn't stick with me. I'll read up on the subj more later, I'm about to head out to the airport.	[21:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2019-10-13 10:00:22 whaack: yes it did, but i ~failed that course	[21:07]
jfw:	whaack: cool, no need to pile on further tsks then, lol	[21:09]
lobbes:	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-27#1019473 << I missed this earlier, but archiving should already be occurring in this channel. Currently lobbesbot is set to silently snarf urls-to-parse from all channels it sits in, so this channel ought to be covered	[23:02]
ericbot:	Logged on 2020-02-27 13:03:46 diana_coman: lobbes: how does that link-archiving work, can I have it in here too or what does it require?	[23:02]

Comments (0)

#ossasepia Logs for 03 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 5:47 pm

diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: hm, might need some trumpets too for proper presentation! but lacking trumpets – can haz link at least?	[03:58]
diana_coman:	whaack: lmao, tone it DOWN, man; expression if nothing else!	[03:59]
diana_coman:	trinque: lolz, the contemplating rabbits' den.	[03:59]
diana_coman:	whaack: if I end up asking you a question about the point of the previous question that was on why an even earlier question was needed, I'll just as soon go get my key and negrate, save some time; seriously now, do you want to do something or do you enjoy my conversation only?	[04:34]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion do I take it you actually use that clock and ledger?	[06:22]
whaack:	diana_coman: Yes I want to do something. I enjoy your conversation very much but it will get dull absent work to talk about. (Should it not cease to exist altogethr)	[10:29]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=KSIZ Sorry, I fired before pasting the link	[11:02]
jfw:	diana_coman: I use them, yes. (Though I've made some changes to my clock program since the one posted there.)	[12:16]
dorion:	diana_coman yea, I use both.	[12:17]
dorion:	started to use it for personal finances in 2015ish because supports arbitrary symbols and precision and thus facilitated bitcoin accounting	[12:19]
jfw:	whaack: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958708 in case you missed it	[12:22]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-01 mp_en_viaje: speaking of which, where in cr are you whaack ? i dun remember	[12:22]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Feb-2020#1019730 – on the selling oneself short thread, seems like it'd be more accurate to say something like, "Hola! A transaction I signed in the wallet I wrote in the language I implemented installed on the Linux distro I implemented was inserted into the block chain to rule them all after I carefully transferred it over the optical data diode I	[14:32]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-28 16:45:27 jfw: In other news, a gbw transaction escapes into the wild: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/7386679d841bdca0b7c412d09d936627e7310597542be8f7d75cb39811d799b1	[14:32]
dorion:	devised, love jfw."	[14:32]
diana_coman:	dorion: eh, he doesn't need to sell himself to tmsr now, lolz.	[15:20]
jfw:	dorion, this may underscore your point but first thing coming to mind was the objection, "well I wasn't actually ferrying data across an airgap just for that test, plus the diode wasn't really my design, and what does 'carefully' transfer mean, like without spilling any soup?"	[15:20]
diana_coman:	jfw dorion re clock & ledger – did you genesis them both properly then? because esp the ledger thing, when I just had a look at it earlier today, it's a monster; perhaps you still have at least some less-of-a-monstrosity version?	[15:20]
diana_coman:	let me cite for logs & the innocent from the the horse's mouth: "Over the last twelve months, Ledger has seen a substantial increase in activity. This may be a sign that interest in this project is rising, and that the open source community has embraced this project."	[15:22]
diana_coman:	and further horses speaking: "has had 6,397 commits made by 171 contributors representing 46,976 lines of code"	[15:23]
jfw:	diana_coman: I have not stolen Ledger to the extent of a genesis. I'm running a version 3.1.1 from 2016, perhaps it's less-bad	[15:24]
jfw:	it's c++ and dependencies per my notes are boost, cmake, gmp, mpfr	[15:26]
diana_coman:	jfw: well, tbh even if I went past the above, the practical test failed miserably because it not only wanted all sorts I did not have, but even after installing those (yeah, boost, cmake etc), it still failed and by that time I really had ran out of patience, time and all that.	[15:27]
diana_coman:	(most probably "old versions" etc)	[15:27]
diana_coman:	anyways, the idea of ledger looked fine and proper to me, hence the attempt; the reality ofc fucked the idea in the head with everything it got so yeah, practically my old, old <100lines of bash still work fine but anyways, since you use it and like it and so on, there's no point to not genesising them.	[15:28]
jfw:	There's a long list of things I use but don't have genesis, but might as well chip away.	[15:30]
diana_coman:	jfw: it will force by necessity a review of that list and in itself that's not a bad thing at all anyway.	[15:31]
diana_coman:	funnily enough, I find that I really use fewer and fewer things and even so – I'd much rather use ..fewer; lolz.	[15:31]
jfw:	I suppose one must know of many things to get by with fewer things.	[15:33]
diana_coman:	jfw: can be, indeed.	[15:34]
diana_coman:	whaack: look here, I already specifically and explicitly asked you to stop doing the bare minimum and properly use those questions for the tools they are; as a result, you did what manages to be even below the bare possible minimum given the questions; and …	[15:40]
diana_coman:	… when I point it out to you with a helping question, you answer that only without fixing anything at all; and on and on this goes – you'll say the right thing because yes, you are not stupid at all; you'll then still not DO the actual thing anywhere beyond its surface because way too much work and it's enough if it seems like it, right?	[15:40]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019866 – fair enough. I used it to push on the underlying.	[15:43]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 15:20:05 diana_coman: dorion: eh, he doesn't need to sell himself to tmsr now, lolz.	[15:43]
diana_coman:	whaack: so I'll stop commenting on those bare minimum and below wordy soups you can easily produce, as it's just a waste of time anyway; start actually doing the work properly and I might look at it again; preferably you start that some time before I get around to do a full review of this yh project too as by that time I'll certainly cut it short and be done with it.	[15:43]
dorion:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019867 – ok, I was imagining the final use rather than testing. I suppose I overcompensated.	[15:44]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 15:20:31 jfw: dorion, this may underscore your point but first thing coming to mind was the objection, "well I wasn't actually ferrying data across an airgap just for that test, plus the diode wasn't really my design, and what does 'carefully' transfer mean, like without spilling any soup?"	[15:44]
diana_coman:	dorion: yes; still, context matters too, even for amount and type of presentation, that was my point.	[15:45]
jfw:	I should report that yesterday I did a bunch of wallet work, though not quite what I'd planned. I found my actual priority was scratching an old itch / paying an old debt. Last year I had stupidly got some coin locked up: my PRB node was running low on disk space, I took the chance to stand back up a TRB, but nuked the PRB chain before sweeping funds on the naive assumption that the wallet.dat	[15:46]
jfw:	would transfer over.	[15:46]
jfw:	I've now managed to dump the keys therein and sweep using a lightly modified gbw (the incompability is use of compressed rather than uncompressed pubkey encoding).	[15:47]
jfw:	On the writing front, I pretty much didn't make the time to push myself, blissfully letting other things take priority. Now I'm finally making headway there again.	[15:49]
diana_coman:	jfw: basically you need some itching powder for the writing process, lolz.	[15:49]
jfw:	I could go look for some of the mosquitos they don't quite manage to eliminate around here…	[15:51]
diana_coman:	dorion: when's your current eta for that feb tmsr-os report to be done and out of the way? because yes, medicine and all that, but the sooner out, the more time to get through the backlog anyway so the better for next month at least.	[15:52]
dorion:	jfw , diana_coman continuing the thread in a different context, we've not yet decided what to do on group rates. this has come up with a prospect asking for a discount if he brings in friends/contacts.	[15:52]
diana_coman:	jfw: or you can write on how you avoid writing :D	[15:52]
dorion:	diana_coman today.	[15:52]
diana_coman:	dorion: excellent eta.	[15:53]
diana_coman:	dorion: what that prospect suggests falls under your referal rates though, doesn't it?	[15:53]
diana_coman:	so presumably you already have those set or what am I not getting there?	[15:53]
diana_coman:	re group rates as such – does it being a group otherwise make it any cheaper/easier for you? (ie is there any reducing of your expenses – time included – if "group") or what? because the way I understood it, you are doing one to one anyway so I don't know if "group" means at least less of your time spent on it or what exactly?	[15:55]
jfw:	right, group means multiple people in same room on same schedule, so less time for us (though still some extra time most likely).	[15:55]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: at readership growth, do add positives too; while fights might attract more people, you can't rule out positive reporting (as in reporting of what happened well and as it should be, even if they are within tmsr, what) also attracting people, what.	[15:56]
dorion:	diana_coman it does fall under the referral offering, though he had in mind that the referrals would get the same rate he gets.	[15:57]
diana_coman:	jfw: ahaha, so how's that less time though still some extra time? it's quite important to weigh that properly; (and from my tutoring experience, there's further a max limit you'd probably want on any group numbers because it matters)	[15:57]
diana_coman:	dorion: so what's your setup for referral? (I don't recall it, if you wrote it already just give the link)	[15:58]
jfw:	diana_coman: if t is time spent for one pupil, and n the number of pupils, total time spent on group is > t but < t*n, is all I mean	[15:59]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. Will get on it.	[15:59]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: at venues – I really strongly suggest you start thinking and planning your own meetups as such really	[15:59]
dorion:	diana_coman I didn't say it specifically in the business plan, 15\% as of now, which is half of what goes to sales.	[16:00]
diana_coman:	it doesn't have to start with a full blown whatever,but you need to build up your reporters basically, the way I see it.	[16:00]
jfw:	dorion: perhaps I misunderstood though, is he asking about such a group or just referrals?	[16:00]
dorion:	jfw he wants to do it.	[16:01]
diana_coman:	is still going through BingoBoingo's draft	[16:01]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Point taken	[16:01]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: why is automation apparently only for the blogs part?	[16:02]
jfw:	dorion: I don't quite follow. Wants to do which?	[16:02]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: I haven't sketched out how to automate the other things in much detail yet.	[16:03]
dorion:	jfw he wants to go through the program and reduce his costs by doing it in a group.	[16:03]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: the rest seems to pass at this stage; there's still a lot of unclarity as to "what do" exactly and that's potentially troublesome.	[16:05]
diana_coman:	dorion: so let me try and figure out what you have there exactly as it's still unclear to me so far; 1. your standard offer is explicitly one to one training 2. you have referral program that means precisely that the referred people pay the standard rate and the one who referred them gets 15\% of that 3. you have a prospect who is asking for what discounts are available for group training	[16:07]
diana_coman:	dorion: can you comment on 1,2,3 as to what's correct, what not?	[16:08]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you. I'll get back on it, hit these points, and try to bring still more clarity.	[16:08]
dorion:	diana_coman that's all correct.	[16:09]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: listen, on some parts the clarity will come from/with practice; if you are going to do that rather than flail afterwards because "not clear", you can just add what I pointed above that is missing and consider it done for now; my point re lack of clarity in parts is to be addressed by a. looking at why, namely is this because not yet started on it or because not really thought it through b. make sure you will get …	[16:12]
diana_coman:	… started on them somehow	[16:12]
diana_coman:	dorion: ok, so your first thing to figure out with jfw is whether you want to offer group training as well and in what exact format/what does that mean for you; only from there you can decide on discount anyway.	[16:13]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Alright. Thank you for the elaboration.	[16:13]
diana_coman:	jfw: would your training even work directly for a group? how big/	[16:14]
jfw:	diana_coman: we did start off with a group of two (with substantial guinea-pig discount). It certainly gets less efficient & customized with more people. With a helper I could see doing three, maybe four; beyond that more formally structured lab activities would have to be designed I think.	[16:19]
diana_coman:	jfw: from what I gathered your usual lesson is quite practical; the trouble with a group (beyond the obvious less closer supervision/direction of the learner) is the potential differences in speed & approaches; if you plan to target relatively large organisations, I'd say it's likely you'll get group-training requests anyway so it's possibly worth to plan it and have it part of your offer anyway but it is indeed not exactly just the …	[16:19]
diana_coman:	… same thing.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	jfw: I don't even know how much/what structure you have for the lessons, huh.	[16:20]
diana_coman:	if you say with a helper for 3-4, that just means 2 lessons in the same room, heh	[16:21]
diana_coman:	ie you still do it one on 2 max but yeah, both of you at the same time sort of thing , so that's not going to be any less effort or time for you	[16:21]
diana_coman:	and I doubt that's what is had in mind for group either, hm.	[16:21]
jfw:	There's some lecture style presentation of new material going from outlines, followed by interaction / practice which indeed doesn't scale as is.	[16:23]
dorion:	I've been attending the pilot courses to take notes, provide support if/when I see fit. essentially to help forge the service. though I also tried leading 1 or 2 of the earlier sessions.	[16:24]
jfw:	dorion: it strengthened your own knowledge too, don't you think?	[16:25]
diana_coman:	jfw: to be fully clear re structure and all that – at one extreme you can certainly go full blown lesson plan and preparation; at the other extreme you can have a loose outline of topics you follow and then take them through it and/or adjust as they go; I doubt either extreme is what you need, so somewhere in between but for a group I'd say you do need to have a clear structure and you can't adjust as much – you should probably make …	[16:25]
dorion:	jfw for sure.	[16:26]
diana_coman:	… this clear too and as a downside ie sure, they'll get a discount but also less support	[16:26]
diana_coman:	remembers the full lesson plans + detailed objectives and whatnots and shudders (though still FULLY remembers the darned content so yeah, it works)	[16:26]
jfw:	right, and it's in between at present	[16:27]
diana_coman:	dorion: do you have any idea what the size of the group would be /this prospect is thinking of?	[16:28]
diana_coman:	dorion: also, do you plan to/is it likely to target organisations large enough to have /want groups?	[16:29]
dorion:	diana_coman my sense was this would be in the 3-4 range. and if he actually has more to refer, we can have multiple groups.	[16:30]
dorion:	re the target, we've been primarily focused on individuals for now, but I don't see what it hurts to try the bigger organizations.	[16:32]
jfw:	what potentially hurts is that more written content needs developed to partially substitute instructor attention	[16:33]
diana_coman:	dorion: btw, re discounts, one annoying-but-it-works approach is to basically have baked in the price a \% you can graciously "discount" – some people can't take it if it's not discounted; this can ofc backfire if you do it to people who don't have that sort of must-discount shitty approach but actually do a valuation but anyways.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	hm, the 3-4 range sounds like the worst for you really – not big enough to move it to "classroom style" but too big to keep it the same and gain from it, ugh; jfw would what you currently have work for a group of 3 (just you though, no helper)? maybe with a few extra lessons at most?	[16:35]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019950 – this is why I asked if this is something you'll likely get a lot more of – basically if it's worth it and not ending up doing it just for this prospect.	[16:37]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 16:33:30 jfw: what potentially hurts is that more written content needs developed to partially substitute instructor attention	[16:37]
diana_coman:	jfw: re group of 3, dunno, put them in a circle so you can see all their screens and then work them through the same stuff with whatever inevitable delays might come from your 3-ways multitasking, pretty much.	[16:38]
jfw:	I suppose it's possible.	[16:39]
jfw:	Can get the faster ones to help the others to some extent too, but it can get chaotic	[16:40]
diana_coman:	jfw, dorion since you are looking at this now anyway, might as well look at it fully so do the maths for groups of 3 as above; and at the very least with larger groups (dunno, 8-10?) but more classroom style.	[16:41]
diana_coman:	jfw: eh, how do you manage to make chaos out of 3 adults? lolz	[16:41]
diana_coman:	I mean: you are there the anti-chaos anyway and supposedly they won't start throwing paper balls behind your back, right?	[16:41]
jfw:	There is that.	[16:42]
dorion:	pictures jfw breaking out ruler to strike ball throwers and restore order.	[16:43]
diana_coman:	jfw: and you don't need to get the "help the others thing" anyway, it's possibly way easier for you to just have alternative/additional tasks for the faster ones; it's probably not that hard for you to even make them on the spot I'd think and it doesn't have to show as "not in the program" otherwise -it's just "more practice"	[16:43]
diana_coman:	dorion: you know, that's the poorest approach,lolz	[16:43]
dorion:	diana_coman we have a 0.2 discount for paying upfront instead of 1/2 upfront half halfway through.	[16:44]
dorion:	diana_coman I know it is, but allowed the streotype to play in mind while also considering jfw's personality.	[16:45]
diana_coman:	dorion: presumably your prospect knew of that already but is still looking for the group-thing on top?	[16:45]
dorion:	diana_coman yes.	[16:45]
diana_coman:	dorion: heh, you might be…surprised.	[16:46]
diana_coman:	tbh it really sounds like one of those that must-get-a-special-discount but anyways; might as well calculate and figure out what group-options you can offer anyway.	[16:47]
jfw:	diana_coman: I like the extra-practice-problems route, especially remembering my own time served in classroom	[16:47]
dorion:	this prospect is not an ideal client, but see him more as a potential part of the team. he left private banking at a rather well reputed private bank here autumn last year. is trading and brokering insurance and real estate independently.	[16:47]
diana_coman:	dorion: sure; and honestly, don't take it as any problem with it, there probably won't be "the ideal client" much anywhere; the point is just to have as few…surprises let's say as possible, pretty much.	[16:50]
diana_coman:	jfw: so have some proper thinking and come up with what you think is needed /what it means giving group lessons + what are the sizes that would work and in what timeframe; review those with dorion so he can then run his calcs on them and come out with the business' pov and resulting offer for the prospect(s)	[16:52]
diana_coman:	does that make sense?	[16:52]
dorion:	diana_coman makes sense to me. and I meant ideal in the ideal client profile sense.	[16:55]
jfw:	this is for larger groups, smaller groups, both?	[16:55]
dorion:	jfw I say start with smaller since that's what's on the table.	[16:55]
diana_coman:	jfw: but you come with what means "small group" really; because they may want 4 people, but if that's not working for you, you can still say groups of 3 and we can make 2 groups or whatever	[16:56]
diana_coman:	at low numbers it can make a big difference; and for this reason I'd say do get that out as soon as you can but then do the further thinking for higher numbers too because you'll probably get asked anyway	[16:57]
jfw:	I'm uncertain (you know me and uncertainty, heh…) how I'd start on this thinking or calculation	[16:59]
diana_coman:	jfw: basically the separation there is that you can think of the practical delivery of the lesson only and so do the plan on that; then dorion can take that as input and think of the sales part.	[17:00]
diana_coman:	jfw: you start with your experience so far; as it is – how do you see it stretching to 3 people, to 4 people to what would be the max you think it would still work as it is (+ those extra exercise but not much more than that)?	[17:01]
jfw:	ok, think I get it.	[17:02]
diana_coman:	what padding of extra lessons would you think is needed (if any) to give you some room if it turns out slower than you thought (but do keep this at a minimum as you don't want to double the time or something, obviously)	[17:03]
diana_coman:	then from there: above that max number, since you go to classroom style, what additional materials & structuring would you need; list those and other changes;	[17:03]
diana_coman:	that's about it.	[17:03]
diana_coman:	and what's the max for classroom style too, anyway.	[17:04]
diana_coman:	jfw: with any group though, I suppose you'll want to have clear a. some matching upfront so you don't get too wildly different levels b. some way to enforce keeping-up on the way if you rely otherwise a lot on what they do on their own	[17:05]
diana_coman:	ie so you don't end up with a huge gap on the way even if they started at similar levels.	[17:05]
jfw:	quite so, and the placement test is supposed to be a start for a.	[17:06]
jfw:	for b there's evaluation of homework (we were a bit slack so far), perhaps some of those "learning objectives" checkboxes during class	[17:08]
jfw:	and thanks for the pointers on planning.	[17:10]
dorion:	diana_coman I had been thinking the bigger organizations are more difficult to approach because they're more likely to be stuck in bureaucracy. recently it seems 'ai' is being pushed as a pill for that, amongst other things. whereas we could present our training as a cost savings investment to cure the blindness of the top performers that	[17:16]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-01-24 mircea_popescu: the fundamental problems are that cli-iliteracy is a serious, life-changing disability. in terms of severity, blindness compares, deafness does not. obviously the afflicted are scarcely aware, but this doesn't mean they're not afflicted.	[17:16]
dorion:	think the company needs to be big in head count and/or invest in complex tech they don't understand to grow. I first read about intelligence amplification from asciilifeform. what do you think about positioning our service as 'ia' ?	[17:16]
diana_coman:	jfw: yw; dorion iirc IA has been around for a while and recently (like it usually goes it would seem) grabbed on as a not-yet-shittied-on term; so first of all, I think you might want to be fully aware of what IA goes for exactly those days (because you might mean one thing but those hearing you might take it for another thing entirely); second, in my (limited, admitedly) experience with bigger organisations the trouble may be that …	[17:29]
diana_coman:	… they are bureaucracy basically so it's not as much about what you do or don't but about what fits their desired-shapes anyway (after all, all those excel-powered departments could be replaced but that's exactly not desired and from solid underlying cause); third, "positioning as x" as such doesn't say all that much to me really, ie the practical thing may mean anything really so dunno what to say on it at that level.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	I suppose you can claim the term and aim to restore its original meaning if you think that is proper and fitting, why not.	[17:29]
diana_coman:	but I'd say the logical consideration flows from there – is it proper and fitting or isn't it.	[17:30]
diana_coman:	will be back tomorrow.	[17:32]
dorion:	makes sense, thanks diana_coman.	[17:48]
jfw:	been thinking over here that the only true intelligence amplifier is knowledge – well structured and balanced and all that – with computers only making that all the more so. Then there's the theme around here that what people mostly need isn't more intelligence but less counterbalancing stupidity.	[18:02]
whaack:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019885 understood	[19:44]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 15:43:48 diana_coman: whaack: so I'll stop commenting on those bare minimum and below wordy soups you can easily produce, as it's just a waste of time anyway; start actually doing the work properly and I might look at it again; preferably you start that some time before I get around to do a full review of this yh project too as by that time I'll certainly cut it short and be done with it.	[19:44]
whaack:	jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-03-Mar-2020#1019861 thank you. I had responded but I did not realize that I had lost +v, and thus the message did not get sent. Will resend shortly.	[19:45]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-03-03 12:22:27 jfw: whaack: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958708 in case you missed it	[19:45]
jfw:	whaack: in that circumstance I've gotten a response code 404 from the server, "Cannot send to nick/channel". Might poke around your client to see if that went somewhere you weren't aware of.	[22:06]

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#ossasepia Logs for 02 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 5:37 pm

feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/ejb-review-of-feb-24-mar-1-plan-for-mar-2-mar-8/ << Young Hands Club — ejb review of Feb 24-Mar 1 ; plan for Mar 2-Mar 8	[00:37]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/jfw-review-week-of-24-feb-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW review, week of 24 Feb 2020	[02:22]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/jfw-plan-week-of-2-mar-2020/ << Young Hands Club — JFW plan, week of 2 Mar 2020	[02:43]
jfw:	BingoBoingo: looks good to me, I expect you'd know better than me though. Second (archived) link is same as the first.	[02:50]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: ty. I do suspect you could have actually hit those points faster than I did, but honestly… in attacking that I had the opportunity to do so important remedial reading in how much shitting the power rangers have been doing while I'd been stuck in the defensive curl.	[03:12]
BingoBoingo:	This bech32 thing the power rangers are pushing is longer though case insensitive addresses, but they tie it to their segwit bullshit, though not segwit as the CIA's original Gavin pushed it.	[03:14]
BingoBoingo:	It turns out that while I've been in my bubble, this same bullshit, segwit in its worst possible construction, is being pushed without the toxic Gavin Assassinen brand.	[03:16]
BingoBoingo:	had been filtering these sorts of developments as derp when I ought to have been stomping them, just as surely as mole tunnels need stomped.	[03:20]
BingoBoingo:	To be absolutely clear jfw, in this case you knew much better than I.	[03:25]
diana_coman:	cheers on a very active Qntra; and thanks to jfw too!	[04:17]
jfw:	oh hey, cheers BingoBoingo!	[12:44]
diana_coman:	whaack: re Google maps and similar – it can't make you anything you are not, lolz; but moreover, it's not only the dependency as such but the fact that every time you are "using" something you don't understand, you are in fact more being used than using anything.	[15:26]
diana_coman:	and with being used comes the fact that you have no real say in the exact "how"	[15:26]
BingoBoingo:	I present, the next draft of the plan.	[22:30]
whaack:	diana_coman: aha right, Google maps and similar don't make one dependent, the users (or used-ers) are already dependent to begin with. I will meditate on what things I use that I don't understand.	[23:11]
trinque:	falls down a rabbit hole contemplating whaack's last sentence	[23:47]

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#ossasepia Logs for 01 Mar 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 5:27 pm

dorion:	diana_coman my review should be hitting the feeds shortly. I'm going to get some sleep. My plan is the first thing to get done tomorrow, then to finish a JWRD proposal for a prospect.	[03:38]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/01/rmd-week-17-review-feb-24-29th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 17 review, Feb 24-29th, 2020	[03:39]
diana_coman:	dorion: http://younghands.club/2020/03/01/rmd-week-17-review-feb-24-29th-2020/#comment-480	[10:02]
diana_coman:	for that matter the above is likely to be useful for everyone.	[10:03]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Thank you for the questions in that comment. Weighing priorities this morning I've backed off of the photo mission for the day's president swap. Weather's taken a turn for the hot, and having not found any sort of agenda for the day's ceremonies. I have the broadcast on a screen making noise in the background so hopefully I'll find out of some outlier event like commies rioting or Argentine tanks breaking down on their	[12:43]
BingoBoingo:	way to the border happens, but…	[12:43]
BingoBoingo:	Actually heading out there looks like a carnaval sort of time trap below actual priorities in front of me	[12:44]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: sounds indeed like you have anyway better stories to write from the online really.	[15:29]
lobbes:	diana_coman: I have nothing specific to discuss for out standing meeting today. Today I'll be continuing testing, and I'm going to get my review done earlier today.	[15:41]
diana_coman:	lobbes: ok.	[15:56]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/01/martisor/ << Ossa Sepia — Martisor	[16:17]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Better stories today, a week to review, a week to plan, and… like everything else Uruguayo this thing's incredibly stretched out.	[17:06]
diana_coman:	dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958744 – it's for you and he has a strong point too, that's how it usually goes indeed.	[17:06]
ossabot:	(trilema) 2020-03-01 mp_en_viaje: "On the more positive side, based on what he has told us, he made a career from designing and implementing HFT systems for a wide range of fiat exchanges and instruments. He told us at one point he was paying 0k/month for leased lines." << from experience, none of these claims are ever true. [http://trilema.com/2014/how-the-other-half-lives-or-michael-o-church-is-a-scummy-fuckwit/?b=roughly\%20Di&e=equivalent#select][people just say thi	[17:06]
BingoBoingo:	lives in a Country where they haven't finished carnaval yet.	[17:06]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: ah, time has no real value in latin lands, no.	[17:07]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/ar-review-february-24th-march-1st-2020/ << Young Hands Club — AR Review February 24th – March 1st 2020	[20:46]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/ar-plan-march-2nd-march-8th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — AR Plan March 2nd – March 8th 2020	[21:59]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/wh-review-of-week-20-feb-24th-march-1st/ << Young Hands Club — WH Review of Week 20 (Feb 24th – March 1st)	[22:27]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/wh-plan-for-week-21-march-2nd-march-8th/ << Young Hands Club — WH Plan For Week 21 (March 2nd – March 8th)	[22:27]
feedbot:	http://younghands.club/2020/03/02/rmd-week-18-plan-mar-1st-6th-2020/ << Young Hands Club — RMD week 18 plan, Mar 1st-6th, 2020	[22:51]
BingoBoingo:	jfw: I hope I've done your lead justice http://qntra.net/2020/03/bitstamp-plays-with-novelty-segwit-only-bech32-addresses/	[23:54]

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#ossasepia Logs for 29 Feb 2020

Filed under: #ossasepia,Logs — Diana Coman @ 5:17 pm

jfw:	thanks whaack, I had some fun with that.	[02:11]
jfw:	what occurred to me for your present fleet memory issue: I would imagine sbcl has a way to run the garbage collector explicitly and capture the stats programatically (I expect there's only one of interest really, "how much heap is in use?" – not sure where that is exactly in the detailed output.) Make a loop interleaving that with whatever operation you want to test – joining a network perhaps –	[02:21]
jfw:	or run it periodially in a thread, logging to a file. See how it evolves over time. This is a rough sort of approach; maybe sbcl has some fancier memory profiling. Or more study of your own + cl-irc code couldn't hurt.	[02:21]
jfw:	really it seems to me there should be epsilon change in memory usage with respect to time for a given number of networks, since messages are logged externally.	[02:27]
jfw:	also you could run a local ircd ("ratbox" came up as one of the supposedly solid options last I looked into this) to facilitate a large number of connections / other noisy tests.	[02:31]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Feb-2020#1019734 – what's wrong with enjoying learning and/or puzzles? re hardware though, it's a sort of once-removed to learn about it via tools on top and it's unclear why would you go that route at all.	[05:14]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-28 16:52:44 whaack: diana_coman: tbh I have a concern that the reason I want to learn the cmd line tools is in part because I enjoy solving little puzzles. Otherwise I would say I want to learn them because I see them as a means to increase my productivity and I guess also (this could be added to my list of whys) as a way to learn about topics such as networking and how various parts of a computer work (tools can	[05:14]
diana_coman:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-28-Feb-2020#1019730 – nice, well done jfw ! and indeed, not having a republican block explorer sucks.	[05:15]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-28 16:45:27 jfw: In other news, a gbw transaction escapes into the wild: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/7386679d841bdca0b7c412d09d936627e7310597542be8f7d75cb39811d799b1	[05:15]
whaack:	jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-29-Feb-2020#1019741 Right. I don't think that the memory used is growing directly with the number of messages logged, since the bot that is still running has logged over 3x as many messages as the one that crashed.	[10:35]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-29 02:27:57 jfw: really it seems to me there should be epsilon change in memory usage with respect to time for a given number of networks, since messages are logged externally.	[10:35]
whaack:	When I use the (room) function on my bot that is still running I can see that the memory usage fluctuates. There may be some non negligible memory being used when a large number of incoming messages occur all at once. If I am receiving messages faster than I can write them to the postgresdb for a long enough period of time, that would cause my program to run out of memory.	[10:57]
whaack:	in interesting weird found in my irclogs http://bitcoinshell.mooo.com/	[11:12]
whaack:	the owner of the site offers a VM with 128MB of disk space to anyone, but to create an account on the vm you need to beat his bot in a telnet game of pong.	[11:16]
whaack:	tried but gave up since it takes a bit of time to secure the victory.	[11:19]
whaack:	diana_coman: there's nothing wrong with enjoying learning or solving puzzles. but if that's the only/primary reason to learn something then maybe one's learning what they want to learn rather than what they need to learn.	[12:12]
jfw:	thanks diana_coman!	[13:22]
jfw:	whaack: looks like what I had in mind can be done by the entirely undocumented (sb-kernel:dynamic-usage), following a (gc :full t).	[13:23]
jfw:	Certainly the database will need to be able to keep up, there may be some postgres tuning to do if that's really the problem. But does your code really queue up messages from the network before processing them? Why?	[13:25]
whaack:	jfw: Any message queueing that may be happening is unintentional. I believe that the code waits for the db write to finish before calling "select2" to read the next line. My guess is that incoming messages that have not been "read"'d take up some space in the sbcl process, and if as you say the database can't keep up, those incoming messages waiting to be read and then written to the db pile up	[13:48]
whaack:	and cause an OOM error	[13:48]
jfw:	whaack: assuming these select2/read are ~equivalent to the corresponding system calls, then no; there's some limited buffering done by the kernel; when that fills, tcp flow control will stop the server from transmitting until more space is made.	[14:14]
whaack:	jfw: ah thank you, that is very good to know.	[14:24]
jfw:	yw.	[14:36]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: lol, that is any way better but the question was re previous non-approach	[15:29]
ossabot:	(agriculturalsupremacy) 2020-02-29 BingoBoingo: thimbronion: Which story would you rather write, the chinese spy scoop you've been weighing all week or the US surrendering to the Taliban?	[15:29]
ossabot:	(agriculturalsupremacy) 2020-02-28 BingoBoingo: jfw: Ty, I'll leave this open for 5 hours to see if any takers claim it while I do Spanish class and work on refining the plan.	[15:29]
diana_coman:	did that older possible story fade entirely given the great handling ?	[15:30]
BingoBoingo:	It didn't, it's still a hole in coverage, less fresh and still open.	[15:31]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: yes but specifically what are you going to do? and moreover, you've got now to see that there is this sort of potential situation – and it's a good one ie kuddos to jfw for the lead there! – so don't ignore it/sleep on it because it's not yet biting you hard enough or something; plan ahead so it does NOT end up biting you harder.	[15:33]
BingoBoingo:	diana_coman: Alright, I'll cover it today. I'd been trying not to write myself for Qntra before 19:00 hrs UTC to keep it from consuming the bulk of the day, but it seems pretty clear that when these leads come in I'm going to have to carve out some time to hammer a piece, then move whatever got displace into whatever time I'd reserved to searching and hammering out an unknown story later.	[15:38]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: yes, you are the last resort writer there currently, no way around it; the solution is to make sure the last resort gets activated less often, but not to just not step up to it when/if needed.	[15:43]
whaack:	I agree, jfw's article is gold, it's a new development in the ongoing story of "people" storing "their" bitcoin in anyone can spend addresses. qntra should milk the segwit line until the miners finally take the coins that are laying on the table for them. If qntra ran a piece that explained the manner in which coins are taken from someone storing their coins in segwit the article would be like	[15:43]
whaack:	http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/ and hopefully would have similar results	[15:43]
BingoBoingo:	Stepping back into the bigger picture I'm going to have to define the problem of allocating my time on the day-to-day by priority	[15:45]
diana_coman:	BingoBoingo: certainly; pretty much everyone's problem apparently but still no other way around this – either you really allocate your time purposefully on what IS the highest priority for whatever goals you have (and this does imply you have clear goals and clear plans and all that, yes) or you'll just flail about and find deadlines impossible to stick too and wonder why everything is late and not advancing and so on and so forth.	[15:48]
diana_coman:	stick to* ; apparently I have a surplus of oo lately	[15:49]
whaack:	lool	[15:50]
BingoBoingo:	collecting this fodder for the weekly review.	[15:53]
diana_coman:	whaack: what's the next episode in the My Friendly Mechanic series?	[15:54]
whaack:	diana_coman: The mechanic texted me saying the car is good. The total dammages were about 10-16 hours of my time and 00 for a new alternator and a new battery. When I picked up the "all good" car, the car was vibrating quite strongly while in neutral. After driving around the vibrating stopped and hasn't returned. The friendly mechanic said that since the car lost power completely the computer	[16:04]
whaack:	needed to "recalibrate parameters". The car has an error code that indicates the sensor that regulates oxygen intake to the motor is not working.	[16:04]
whaack:	I asked him how long it would take to fix the sensor, and he said he cannot get it done before next week (when I have some friends visiting and we're going to make a trip to Arenal/La Fortuna – about a 3 hour drive) He said that the oxygen intake sensor should be fixed but I am probably good to go and can address the problem when I get back.	[16:05]
diana_coman:	ahaha, it would totally make a great cartoon for sure.	[16:06]
diana_coman:	whaack: I hope you did/do get a camera for the trip at least, right?	[16:09]
whaack:	diana_coman: yup, thanks to billymg I have a replacement camera	[16:09]
BingoBoingo:	whaack: For that recalibration usually there's a procedure you can carry out from the driver's seat while the car's idling, but what exactly it is depends on the make and model. It may or may not be faster than simply driving and letting the engine control unit figure it out.	[16:21]
diana_coman:	whaack: did you get the car's manual when you bought it?	[16:29]
diana_coman:	such a thing should be in there or I'd expect it to be.	[16:29]
whaack:	diana_coman: No, although I found it online. There was none in the glove compartment but iirc from reading some of the online manual I recall there is another storage compartment that has the tools for fixing a flat tire, where the paper manual may also be.	[16:33]
diana_coman:	whaack: you know, I did want to ask you if you at least know what to do if you get a flat tire at some point, lol.	[16:34]
whaack:	diana_coman: Do you still want to ask?	[16:37]
whaack:	lol	[16:37]
whaack:	I asked for taxi amigo to teach me, but we were unable to find the jack. It may be in the compartment mentioned in the manual, I'll check later today/tomorrow and make some time to learn how to change the tire before I go on the short road trip.	[16:39]
jfw:	bwahahaha, what extras did it also just happen to not include, windshield wipers and a horn? Maybe they're in some compartment somewhere	[16:39]
whaack:	argh the typeup of Butcher's translation of Aristotle's poetics was butchered in various places. Sentences just trail off randomly / chunks of text are missing	[16:42]
diana_coman:	whaack: it's ok, those chunks of text might be in a compartment somewhere!	[16:43]
diana_coman:	at least laughed, headache and all.	[16:43]
whaack:	brb, gonna go check compartment	[16:43]
jfw:	whaack: but yes, do practice changing a tire, with proper procedure for tightening the lugs, and check tire pressure regularly, including the spare.	[16:46]
jfw:	If it's motivation, these things do impress the lady passengers in the event they get to be demonstrated.	[16:46]
jfw:	that MIT classics site is in my memory for "the server crashed and we didn't have backups but it's ok, we rescued parts of most of the texts from google cache"	[16:49]
diana_coman:	oh, as a lady passenger at times, I can certify to whaack that the demonstration of no-clue at such times is also extremely impressive in its own special way!	[16:50]
diana_coman:	ahahah, that google cache must be the "compartment somewhere", now it all fits!	[16:51]
jfw:	hehe.	[16:51]
feedbot:	http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/29/a-basic-requirement-for-the-literate-introducing-of-new-tools/ << Ossa Sepia — A Basic Requirement for the Literate Introducing of New Tools	[17:04]
whaack:	found the jack and tools in the other compartments, but no manual	[17:06]
diana_coman:	jfw: btw, do you find the ack-of-having-debts as already paying them or what?	[17:07]
ossabot:	Logged on 2020-02-27 15:38:09 jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2020/04/21/ossasepia-logs-for-27-Feb-2020#1019476 – reminds me I've slipped on comment acknowledgement too.	[17:07]
diana_coman:	whaack: lolz, discovering the hidden treasures in one's own car – after "owning" it supposedly for a few weeks already! Given this – are you sure you know what your own house contains?	[17:09]
whaack:	jfw: aha I will learn quickly. and don't worry diana_coman, I have not gotten the opportunity to impress any ladies in that way – I had plans to give a cute cashier a ride to Santa Cruz but had to explain "mi carro esta con el mechanico"	[17:09]
jfw:	diana_coman: argh, no I do not.	[17:10]
diana_coman:	whaack: on the bright side, I ~never worry; on the funny side, that explanation is unlikely to be believed anyway (~everyone "has a car/house/amazing stuff that is just …not available)	[17:11]
whaack:	heh right, the yacht is also getting fixed atm	[17:14]
BingoBoingo:	rarely sees the yachts parked in "El Puertito de Buceo" move, ever. I'm starting to suspect a greater portion of them are effectively abandoned making the yacht club more of an impound lot than anything else.	[17:26]

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